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I also read a post on the Workflowy Slack from user Frank G - “I have been using Msft Word for Mac  (Windows before) for as long as I can remember. I have also played with Craft, Ulysses , Scrivener, Speare, Author , Typora , all excellent alternatives. Today WF finally ate them all up too for my long form docs . The blank page with a few basic formatting choices plus WF’s speed (once opened) , simplicity, and flexibility, has made WF my go to choice for long form doc drafts . I will still need to export to Word (or Craft)  for final formatting and PDF conversion, but 95% of my time I will be with WF .”

Essentially this refers to the Roamlike feature where bullets can transform into text blocks. Logsec has had this for some time too.
It struck me that it might be worth comparing the editors in (some of) the apps that I use, what makes them good and how Upnote compares.

I did a short experiment using Workflowy like this - I thought it might be easier if I'm already using it for short zettelkasten notes. Being able to move blocks around is certainly an advantage in some notes/articles where there's a bit of brainstorming and of puzzling through to a, hopefully, coherent outcome. But found I hated it.

A bullet always showed on any section where the mouse was hovering.
And, worse, all the bullets that potentially go lower in the hierarchy remain visible. Can be solved with hoisting and folding etc, but not ideal.
Neither Upnote nor markdown editors help here because they don't allow blocks to be dragged. But OneNote is fine. and easy to put a link in Workflowy, and will also export to .md.

From a writing pov, what Workflowy is good at is brainstorming/organising/constructing using bullets as headings and notes as text. Options to view as bullets, kanban or cards. Exports cleanly to Mindomo, which then exports cleanly to Word. A good workflow once I switched to Word.

Upnote is fine, but has nothing that improves this workflow. It exports to markdown and HTML, but that's not quite as good as a direct export to docx (for me). Longform note writing is okay, but not as nice as Tangent. Its big advantage is mobile. And decent webclips for those who don't have other established workflows for them.

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I actually use multiple desktop applications ... I use obsidian, tangent, vscode mostly.  this is all primarily markdown stuff.  For catch all archival purposes, I put everything in trilium

For work purposes when i need to collaborate with less techy people, i've started using Notion.

For static generated sites, I first started using emanote, but then moved to Docusaurus.  I think Docusaurus is beautiful.
Sounds good.
& nice to hear from you!  :)

I haven't gotten good at atomicity type writing yet, but do plan on going more in that direction as it will help in putting together longer form writings more easily.

I'd ask why. You've been going well without it. I don't think it automatically makes it easier to construct longform: it depends on what you're doing; how you do the putting together; how you take the initial, potentially atomic, notes. I'm not absolutely sure Luhmann was 100% atomic - I haven't read all his cards; Beatrice Webb certainly was.

Most of my notes probably are atomic, without being short, but it would certainly be possible to argue that that they could be split. Like a diamond is atomic, but has many facets, at least after being cut.

I do not think we need to stick so strictly to the original paper based zettel method with the numbers and stuff because the software and yaml covers that pretty well now, and I found it more of a hindrance at this point.  So i've loosened up on that a lot.

I;m not sure what you mean by the numbers. Luhmann's numbering was primarily to preserve his sequences; I'd argue that sequence is essential. Also it is as a UID, and that's what most zkn programs have by using a date/time stamp. I'm not convinced that they help at all except for linking - and there are other ways of doing that.
But I suspect that the main reason you have loosened up is that you're not using notes as a zettelkasten - and there's no reason why you should because there are many note-taking methodologies and all have their uses.

Wearing an academic hat, I'd typically read 20-50 journals in an hour or two. Naturally this involved a lot of scanning, skimming and skipping, with the occasional check on detail and more rarely a deep dive. I'm quite clear in my own mind that typical obsidian-like systems would produce little value except for the last group. I'm not sure how much I'd want to use a zettelkasten approach for that group, but for all the others it would be essential to create useful notes. The process is like going through a haystack finding individual interesting straws, but the value comes entirely form placing them in sequences, whereas the deep dive value is always mostly in the clump. I'm not sure this was entirely the case for Luhmann - he seems always to have been most interested in what he might write and may have selected and moulded straws entirely on that basis. oc that's just nuance.

And having got a system that works to do it, I can see that it can be applied to anything where building chains is the key process. The plural being key - if you are building one chain your needs are quite different from working simultaneously on 1000 without a blueprint and with the need to do crosslinks from time to time.

I think that one of the problems with zettelkasten discussions is that the focus is always on the notes, and there's only som much anyone can say about that without adding lots of ideas of their own. There's very little discussion about the decisions involved in chain-making, and oc it's irrelevant anyway if your system doesn't make chains.

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Can you recommend a book or article explaining the system in more depth?

Oh, how I wish I could!
I can explain why most of the well known books are actively wrong and misleading, in part at least.

This and this aren't  bad summaries, but hardly how to do its. (One poi - Luhmann actually started his second, differently structured, zettelkasten after attending a conference in the US)

There are many reasons why I believe that the published books and articles aren’t great:
  • most writers automatically add their own ideas; they’re very opinionated but try to give the impression that they are just describing the original
  • most writers started as academic wannabes rather than productive and successful academics (and therefore unable to discriminate what would work from what wouldn’t; let alone what needs to be done to make a system work) and a number have ended as zettelkasten publicisers
  • a marked discrepancy between them and Luhmann in terms of self-discipline and life circumstances
  • an obsession with improving the system when creating a digital analog
  • and with their ideas about zettelkasten being shaped by the programs they used
  • Luhmann’s target was writing, he had no need of a memory aid; many of the students are primarily interested in remembering

I’m now very opinionated, but it’s taken me a long time to get there. Many of the many detailed systems I’ve seen described struck me as procrastinatory rather than productive: the notes themselves are the purpose.
My own approach has been shaped most by studying how Luhmann actually worked and reading his cards. And comparing that with myself and the workflows of productive successful academics I know.
But being aware that I’m not the same (I pursue more subjects, I have less self-discipline, I am usually doing things rather than reprocessing what I read).
Like Luhmann, I’m very focused on output. Some of that is writing, but it is also investigating, also doing. Output quality is even more important than quantity. A system that isn’t visibly improving this is not one for me. (One reason I still write longer notes: I can usually write these straight off, remembering citations, rather than having to put them together from short notes. The zettels are for what I don’t know and haven’t yet thought.)
I rejected the wikilink/graph/backlink approach because I could see that it doesn’t do the same thing. It can be useful in itself, but tends to be passive and self-serving. At some point on my journey, I remember someone writing that they had looked at zettelkasten and it was just outlining: they were wrong of course, but also still right. Like everyone who has tried following a digital approach, I’ve been limited by software. Workflowy is well short of ideal, but it will do; for now. And it has analogues for all the features of Luhmann’s system.

What I would say is that you need a clear purpose for using the system. I would suggest that purpose being to do with thinking and doing. With that it is very quick to see whether it is helping or not. But the purpose doesn't have to be academic and doesn't have to involve writing as an output.
And don't eschew longer notes, outside the zettelkasten but being linked into it.

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It's worth emphasising that a brief atomic note implies two conditions that have to be met, not just one
Do you list these conditions?
That it be :

atomic
Andy Matuschak;
If a note has more than one idea you care about, then break it down.
NoteDex explanation
The idea has a long history. Atomicity makes it easier to link because there's (supposed to be) only one idea available to link to.

and brief
Most descriptions of the system include the word brief. Index cards were themselves limiting. But I have seen definitions of brief range from less than A4, less than A5 to no more that 2 or 3 sentences (an index card is actually A6).
The reason I emphasise brief is because these notes need to be scanned very quickly when looking to place a new one. Usually the writer will retain a sense of the richness of the idea without have to dot every i etc.

Are you referring to the two bullet points, the second of which includes the quoted text?
No, there's only one bullet. Quoted text, tags, links etc go in the note to the bullet - accessed by pressing Shift-Enter rather than Enter. It's fainter and less obtrusive

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I'm afraid this is a very long post. It seemed worth giving enough details for anyone else to be able to follow what I'm currently doing; it does assume some knowledge of outliners, Workflowy, zettelkasten and Luhmann.

I haven't done much with zettelkasten in the past - my usual need is for longer notes - but I have started one with Workflowy, and thought I'd explain it here.
  • The first point I need to make is that, despite "Smart Notes", Luhmann's zettelkasten is not a system designed for students - at least not until they are following their own streams of thought; Luhmann was always a researcher who published articles and books. But, if the phrase honing stage is ignored, it is a perfectly applicable system for anyone who is following their own streams of thought whether that be RPG, making bookcases or tracking health. It ought to help develop expertise in anything.
  • Second point is that it is a high effort system. Part of the productivity gain is from the repeated pondering when trying to locate the best place for a new zettel. The rest of the gain comes from the structure enabling brick to be placed on brick until a building emerges.
  • The third is that Luhmann's practice (aka "the rules") does matter.

  • Zettels have to be placed with time-consuming care in a sequence. Some may be new starters (for different subjects), but they need at least the same amount of thought before that decision.
  • Zettels have to be brief and to the point: they're not a string of sequential thoughts - if they're worth it, sequential thoughts need to be sequential zettels. This is hard and requires discipline. If a thought isn't worth that effort, it should not be put into the zettel. I don't put my frequent long notes into the zettelkasten, but I do write a zettel fo each one, with the the reference. It's worth emphasising that a brief atomic note implies two conditions that have to be met, not just one.

  • Workflowy supports this to a degree because it works best when each zettel is a bullet/paragraph.
  • I find that, for the purpose of future linking, it is useful to append a time/date stamp to each zettel. My sequence is title (in bold) + time/date, then the note/thought. All in a single mass of text. I have a time/date stamp as my (most used) shortcut in a text expander so that it can be used in any program. I put references and #tags in the bullet note (#tags are used as a form of index entry)
  • (Technically, all the content could be put into the note rather than the bullet - and I might do that if Workflowy offered the same viewing options for notes (show, hide, 1st line) as Dynalist - but it has no options, and always shows 1st line only.
  • I also find it useful to have an external library/hoard (which is part of the usual zettelkasten system anyway), Items can be highlighted & referenced. Zettels need the essence and not the clutter.
  • I'm aware that it's easy to add a zettel to the head of the list in an outliner. It should also be possible in a card index: idk if Luhmann ever did it; I doubt it since he was probably restricted by his numbering scheme, but I do sometimes.
  • If I want to see, or play, with the zettelkasten in a mindmap, I do OPML export to Mindomo. And export back again if necessary. Most mindmap programs should be able to do this. (Many might be able to work as the outliner too. I simply prefer to use Workflowy).
  • Workflowy doesn't have a wordcount. Which is fine for zettels, but is a pain for anything longer.
  • There's also the possibility of using notes or comments to add detail or successive reflections. At some point the comments could be made into zettels of their own.

Luhmann's phases are essentially: read/think - write zettel - refine note language - place in zettel sequence. Every note placement is an opportunity for further thinking, refining language and adding links/references.

The system I am describing has neural pathways through folgezettel outlines/mindmaps, wikilinks and backlinks, tags as well as optional structure notes. Plus search and filters.

There are a number of reasons why systems like the daily notes and wikilinks of Roam and Obsidian don't create a functional zettelkasten.
  • They encourage verbosity and lack of focus. (A frequent reflection from Roamans after leaving the cult.)
  • (Everything should NOT go into the zettelkasten; the thinking about exclusion is important.)
  • There's no targeted review.
  • The long folgezettel debate on forum.zettelkasten.de largely compares the use of alphanumeric folgezettel with numeric date/time stamps as links. The latter's review system is based on Structure Notes (aka index notes, or Maps of Content in ObsidianSpeak); but folgezettel placing can take place multiple times a day and cover all areas potentially receiving new notes, whereas Structure Note review will be infrequent and partial (I've seen weekly recommended apparently with an acceptance that most users won't manage it that often). The debate made me think of angels pogoing on an needle: everyone is righteous and no-one changes position.
  • No mental effort is used to find the precise place for a zettel/note. Everything relies on links, the automated backlinks and a graph.
  • Structure is expected to be self-emergent (ie automated) rather than the consequence of reflection during placement. There's an assumption that note value is demonstrated by its link density.

In use, I find that this system highlights trains of thought rather than individual notes, and that going through it later does sometimes stimulate further thoughts. Not only are thoughts/notes not islands, but they have active (or inactive) trading networks in a way that graphs of wikilinks don't. I therefore use it for all topics where I am interested in the chain developing (and, maybe especially, branching).

If I write a long note, I decide whether I'm interested in a chain, and, if I am, I add a zettel to reference it. I write as many long notes as I did; the type of mental focus used when writing a long note is quite different to working on the zettelkasten. Sometimes I might write the zettel and then the referenced longer note later.

I happily mine old notes, highlights, webclips, articles, books and add a zettel to reference them when it seems right. I never directly add an old note to the zettelkasten.

Everything is written, described or summarised in my own words. When I don't like my words or phrasing, I have never been able to stop myself working on the language whenever I read something I've written.

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