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Messages - edyshor [ switch to compact view ]

Pages: [1]
1
Find And Run Robot / Re: not freeware !!!
« on: March 21, 2007, 03:32 PM »
nice, and fits well .. the hearts especially are purrrfect for it ;)
mouser, from my experience, people do learn, and now is google and wiki which make it even easier :)

2
Find And Run Robot / Re: not freeware !!!
« on: March 21, 2007, 06:01 AM »
Donationaware as far as I'm concerned (a learned definition from software that I've encountered over the years) is software that is free. But in the about box, readme or some website (or someplace else that an interested user might read) it states a call for the user's good will to donate some money if they appreciate the software, in other words donations are not imposed (a donation by definition is a contribution: a voluntary gift (as of money or service or ideas) made to some worthwhile cause - http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn ) The user should not be imposed to donate, its ok to inform him, it's ok to convince him in a informative way, but not by promise of alleviating an annoyance or otherwise more or less tedious task. (the special offers and discounts should be enough) and I'm ok to show him the article mouser wrote and prevent direct linking to downloadable content. But this should be more then enough. The need to register and the nag screen differentiate mouser's software from traditional freeware and donationware. It's free software but is not freeware. It's not exactly donationware either, because the user is alleviated by the annoyance of periodically register and seeing the nag screen when it starts the program.

Anyway, we're arguing here about the ethical use of freeware/donationware concepts, and the "ethical" concept itself is a relative term anyway.

The software is great, i don't say that it ain't worth some bucks or anything, so don't jump on me about that :)

3
Find And Run Robot / Re: not freeware !!!
« on: March 20, 2007, 06:04 AM »
If it was possible to lobby the major download sites into adding more categories, fine, but it probably isn't
You should like you haven't even tried, in that case you can't say that "they will not" or "it's impossible" or "can't be done".
You quit before you try, that is definitely not the way :)

4
Find And Run Robot / Re: not freeware !!!
« on: March 19, 2007, 11:55 AM »
Technically it isn't donationware, because that would *require* a user to donate, right? The problem is that many software listing sites have a couple of categories to choose from, and usually none of them are 'freeware after registration'.
I'm sorry to see that you haven't read my entire post or you haven't payed attention to what I've written.

The difference between payware and donationware is the fact that, for payware, you have to pay in order to use the software, as for donationware, you are able to use the software without payment, hasslefree, but you are told (if you want) to give a small amount to the coder.

The DC software would be donationware, aside the fact that the user has to give you info about him and get a license key (which contradicts the traditional donationware model).

Now don't jump on me, I've said it before, I completely understand the need for money and the time invested in building great application, but do please choose another description with respect to every user worldwide, and in the cases you have to choose between freeware and shareware on applications sites, i believe is not that hard to include additional explications like the one for ProcessTame on download.com right? :)

These are just my opinions, you are free to do whatever you want, internet is a (mostly) free medium.

5
Find And Run Robot / Re: not freeware !!!
« on: March 18, 2007, 01:10 PM »
f0dder, some time ago, Einstein wished that he didn't open the pandora's box, now we are on a verge of a 3rd Word War, a nuclear one ...

I know I'm exaggerating with this comparison, but just imagine instaid how would the Word Wide Web look today if W3C hadn't kept the standards in check ?!  :-\

6
Find And Run Robot / Re: not freeware !!!
« on: March 18, 2007, 01:03 PM »
I see with much regret that you miss the point of my posts, i am a programmer, i work for a company to get money, in order to eat, have a roof above my head, and having the possibility to party with my friends a couple of times a month, spoil my girlfried with some thoughtfull and unexpected gift, so i completely understand the matter from the programmer's point of view, and maybe from time to time I'll succeed in managing my time more efficiently so i could contribute to the freeware and open source comunity. So the need for money, the fact that programmers need to eat, drink, and otherwise enjoy life aside computer related activities (which also require founding for electricity, internet, maintenance, etc) all this is not an issue. I completely understand this. And the desire to create free software.

But i am also a power user, i have knowledge on software and hardware internals, I've met with situations that require tools, i track, download and test software (free software) that can help me with a problem or other hassle-free (or with minimum effort) and i consider myself quite familiar with software terminology and purpose. I also developed some principles that i adhere to it and much is learned from experience and some i developed by myself, and yes, i feel very strong about the right and wrong.

The problem is with terminology. The software found and Donation Coder (the one that requires a 6 month licence and registration to obtain it) is not freeware or donationware in the strict sense, its free software (which is not the same as freeware).

I've spend the last few horus reading on alt.comp.freeware (google groups) and i come to understand some of your points but i still agree with them freeware is freeware and must remain the same, freeware is free software, but free software is not freeware, let me explain a little on that, maybe you'll understand me better ..

Freeware (aside the definition from alt.comp.freeware) is software that you plug and play no hassle no question asked without the need to visit author's page, without guaranties either (I've had my share of bad experiences with purely written software) but it's freeware, that is the purpose of it, no need to register, do something more then run application and expect to run without me being required to license it or anything else. Rest assured that i have enough experience recognize a good application and it throughly browse the author's webpage because i generally find more stuff there, that way i learn about the author, the software, his thought, articles he's written, websites and software he recommends.

Free software covers a larger area (ad-ware, spyware, requestware, registerware) so technically your software is registerware i.e. free software and not freeware.

Donationware, is free software that is released and the user is called upon to support the developer if he wishes, with a donation, but it is not forced upon it in neither way, not by spaming him with requests into persuading him to donate, not by forcing him to give something (like information, by registering on the DC's forum) this solely ejects it from the freeware category.

OK, maybe you can extend the donationware, to make it more .. persuasive to the cause (after all is free software, with the condition that the user has to register on the forum) but it's definitely not freeware!

I have nothing with the programmers, or the software, or the idea to bring users and programmers together, but i fell the freeware and possibly the donationware concepts are threatened. I'd hate to see some time from now the download.com advertising freeware that you can for free 30 days then you'll have to pay if you want to use it for free  :tellme: (some freeware). As for the donationware probably some time from now we're gonna have to buy software (by donating of course) anyway, so you're just a link on the chain.

Rest assured that you have my respect for what you've build, for the comunity you've created, and probably I'll spend some time on the forum as this guy's (app103) testimonial for DC posted on alt.comp.freeware convinced me to look again with a more relaxed eye at the DC comunity.

As for the software, if the tools could have been packed in one exe with one chm, if necessary one general purpose dll, using one ini file to store settings (were appropriate) and no other requirements (like a license key) you would have had a most than satisfied user in me. Now this license stuff is OK, is part of your fidelizing strategy, but its complicated, even wen I'll get the license key, I'll have to carry it around with the program and 'register' the software in every computer i insert my USB Stick .. that would be more than annoying.

Aside the alteration of freeware and donationware concepts in DC's comunity, this i don't like. And in the beginning when I've discovered DC, i didn't like the fact that i had to register in order to use the software, i didn't used it anyway, not even to see what's capable off, as a form of protest (maybe childish and then maybe not) and yet i registered to tell you what was on my mind. I'm glad to see that you welcomed my criticism with ease and even put an effort to explain to me your point of view, but man, leave the websites alone, many accepts a wide range of descriptions and, as an alt.comp.freeware poster said, you could accurately describe your software so the user knows what to expect.  (Now, on download.com only ProcessTamer I've seen to have such a disclamer  8))

Anyway, today before my previous post I've downloaded some of the software and I'll test drive it, maybe in time (since from now on it seems I'll have more free time on my hands) you'll find me an active user on the forum.

Cheers!   :)

PS: DonationCoder is an inspired name "Will code for donations" :Thmbsup: but as you already know, i don't think the same for your donationware   ;)

7
Find And Run Robot / Re: not freeware !!!
« on: March 18, 2007, 06:48 AM »
Hey there .. again, after long time .. 8)

I've gotten here again, by accident (jumping from link to link you might say) and i'm quite surprised to see that my account is still valid (you either don't do much cleaning on the zombie accounts or you keep them on-line for the 1 year thingie, either way, it's a good feeling to see i'm still alive on the forum :D)

No i still don't agree with your methods :mad: but the quality of your software seems to drive me back to this page from every quality tools/freeware site i'm visiting so ..  :-\ umm .. here i am again ..

I'm glad to see the comunity you've strived to gather is well formed and supporting, proving that a little .. :-\ umm ..imposed "thank yous" is beneficial for founding and building a supporting comunity (psychological fact - people feel the need to be part of what they contribute materialy to - but you should know material contribution are not the only way) wich is good for the life of the project, but you still give me a creepy "political" feeling :(

Anyway, you're in the business to make money, that's for shure, but your methods are more than questionable from the ethical point of view. I didn't belive i would ever say this, but i feel more confortable browsing a page full of banners asking me to buy/join/visit-to be convinced into buying of course ;) than browsing your site where on every page i see messages that try to pursuade me into buying your software (conveyed under the more relaxed therm "donating" wich drasticaly cheapens the concept - this is the creepy part, similar to Iran's "civil" Nuclear Programe :-\)

Anyway, my ranting won't change your minds or your actions, but one my regrets (aside the knoledgable misuse of donationware concept) is the fact that i can't use your progys as i would liked to .. you see, i have a nice collection of freeware stand-alone progys (small, fast, cute, and oh-so-usefull tools - just the exe and maybe a chm file) that are portable, OS traceless (most of them) that work without aditional dll's of other support files. I've gathered this collection over the years from differet sources, freeware (real freeware) authors (sysinternal, nirsoft, rejetto, arcanewood, even microsoft - top name just a few), now unless your exe apps write the licence information into their code they ar not that protable, and neither stand-alone. Witch is quite sad, for the best quick and dirty tools are small, fast, free (as in no feedback - of any type - required), stand-alone, and cute as hell  :-*

I've downloaded a few of your apps to see what's all the fuss about them, but even if they are the next best thing from sliced bread they can't go into 'MyProgys' collection  :( .. at best into my 'Kittz' folder ..

Have fun, and I trully hope that youll consider refining this 'pressured' payware system you're using. Why not call it .. umm .. nag-ware .. or if that souds to ugly maybe .. 'free (but better donations) registration software' .. or even better .. 'software per donations' .. :D now this one seems to be the perfect naming and the most acurate of them all (and its marketing friendly too) 8)

Don't think that i don't appreciate the work you're doing or the quality of your software, but coveing the purpose under a quite honorable concept its not a verry nice thing to do.

You sell software, its plain and simple, not by limiting its use to less than basic functionality or short usage period before the user has to choose wether to buy it or not, you do it buy using anoyances (nags, limited licences) and quite unfair marketing techniques (donation - a honorable thing to do, people who donate are good people, they feel good about themselfs when they donate), so being assaulted by spam on all your webpages + nags + limited licensing, they will donate because it's a good thing to do, they will thing they did it because they wanted to do it (after all the soft is free, is great, they deserves to give them some bucks) but the poor man doesn't realize that they are forced to do it, foced by the spam, by the annoyance (they will percive it as a reward from you when they are relived of it) ..

Is it ethical? No It's not !! It's dirty, it's manipulative, It's something i really don't like! Soon we'll have pay for centimeters cubes of air inhaled because the governments own it, the trees produce oxigen, the government owns the forests so it's only logical that we contribute with a little reward (a donation) to them for keeping the forests alive (after they decimated most of it over the decades) ..

Probably this is a rather long post and the thing is i'm not finished, i can't stress it enough, but i'll stop here because, as i've said before, my ranting ain't gonna change noting.

The tools look nice, probably they do theyr job nicely, to bad they came out in the open under the donationware shadow  :(

have fun, and good luck

8
Find And Run Robot / not freeware !!!
« on: June 05, 2006, 04:20 AM »
OK, i hope i got your attention .. :)
I understand the need for money .. i need it to, but make a shareware, trialware programs, do not cripple the "donation" concept please .. don't get all fired up and let me explain  ;)
i don't care about your definitions, a donation must not be forced (imposed), if it is under pressure then its something else covered behind the "donation" name .. just like our politicians use the term to cover for corruption  :(
It is your right to do what you want, i understand that, but it is not ethically right to pressure users to "donate" .. if they like your stuff and want to thank you for it they will go all the way with the hassle (completing forms, etc) to donate you, just to say "Hey, Great Job with that porgy, keep them comming, I'm with you"  :D
I find it disturbing the nag screens, the fact that i have to get and use (even a free) license key, its annoying and for that simple impediment i won't use the tools (even if they seem great) and i downloaded the drag and drop to see it in action (nice piece, usefull) .. me, not using the tool (and maybe the other, but i don't want to feel temped) is my way of protesting to your method.. probably I'm one in a million, but then again you shouldn't care about this isolated incident  8)

Just to make thing clear, I'm not telling you how to sell your software, how to persuade people into giving you money, if it should be free or shareware or crippleware, I'm objecting to the aggressive request of "donations" (i.e. missuse of the "donation" concept) .. people, u're great, if all u'r software is like drag&drop robot, you should consider bulk them up in one "suite" and selling it if your in it for money, but if you make freeware, maybe you should look up the freeware definition  ;) (from what i know, freeware is giving a software for free and not requesting anything in return - no donations, no credit, no postcards, no thanks - all this should be expected from the common sense of a user and his principles - if he has any - but should not be forced on any way)

Well this is my way of seeing things, and I'm not alone :D (the open source and freeware movement should be proof enough) Trying to get money using the good name and reputation of these comunities is just not right ethically. That is way i protest by not using your so called "freeware/donationware"  >:(

Anyway .. good luck with your business, i like what you code and I'm sure you'll have success in the software industry :)

have fun

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