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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: kyrathaba on August 28, 2013, 08:25 AM

Title: Vocab tune-up
Post by: kyrathaba on August 28, 2013, 08:25 AM

http://qz.com/119200/oxford-dictionary-adds-twerk-derp-selfie-phablet-and-more-voguish-vocabulary/ (http://qz.com/119200/oxford-dictionary-adds-twerk-derp-selfie-phablet-and-more-voguish-vocabulary/)

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: IainB on August 28, 2013, 06:43 PM

Depressing.

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Target on August 28, 2013, 07:25 PM

clearly they're going to have to add a k to the spelling of dictionary...

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Stoic Joker on August 29, 2013, 06:11 AM

clearly they're going to have to add a k to the spelling of dictionary...

-Target (August 28, 2013, 07:25 PM)

+1 - :D

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: tomos on August 29, 2013, 08:04 AM

Dont see the problem :P
They're all words in everyday use (somewhere). Why not include them?

I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

I just read a book a while ago about Shakespeare (by Bill Bryson). English was in a state of flux around 1600, changing towards what we know today. Spelling was unbelievably flexible, and based on local pronunciation - at a time when English dialects would have been a lot stronger than today (and I'd have trouble with a lot of them today). Anyways, Shakespeare 'created' hundreds of words, and changed the use of many others. He started using nouns as verbs, verbs as nouns, etc etc (my memory for details is apalling, especially when it comes to grammar). I suppose the danger now is that although there's new words being added, I suspect there's a lot more words falling out of use - everyday use, at any rate.
And if that trend accererates, yeah, then we'll have a nice, eh, simple language ;-)

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Vurbal on August 29, 2013, 08:27 AM

Language doesn't get dumbed down. I realize no one has actually said that, but it seems to be the general implication.

Meanings change over time to reflect what people are actually communicating. That's not only normal, it's the entire purpose of language in the first place. Words don't have any meaning beyond what we assign to them. Likewise the purpose of a dictionary is not to dictate meaning but rather to facilitate understanding. If the dictionary doesn't reflect the ideas people are communicating it ceases to be useful or relevant.

As to simplicity, the average person knows around 10,000 words in their native tongue but only actually uses around 10% of those in regular conversation. That's not because of intelligence (not entirely anyway) but because a smaller set of words makes for more effective communication on a number of levels.

I couldn't cut my vocabulary down that far, but for most people it's actually a good thing.

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Stoic Joker on August 29, 2013, 12:06 PM

I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

-tomos (August 29, 2013, 08:04 AM)

+1 - Nailed it!

Sorry Vurbal, tomos and I are changing the meanings of a few words to allow for "properly" conveying the English language's newly acquired level of dumber-ness.  :D

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Vurbal on August 29, 2013, 01:13 PM

I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

-tomos (August 29, 2013, 08:04 AM)

+1 - Nailed it!

Sorry Vurbal, tomos and I are changing the meanings of a few words to allow for "properly" conveying the English language's newly acquired level of dumber-ness.  :D

-Stoic Joker (August 29, 2013, 12:06 PM)

I'd love to see how you measure that.  :P

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Stoic Joker on August 29, 2013, 03:46 PM

I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

-tomos (August 29, 2013, 08:04 AM)

+1 - Nailed it!

Sorry Vurbal, tomos and I are changing the meanings of a few words to allow for "properly" conveying the English language's newly acquired level of dumber-ness.  :D

-Stoic Joker (August 29, 2013, 12:06 PM)

I'd love to see how you measure that.  :P

-Vurbal (August 29, 2013, 01:13 PM)

Why using the formula you gave us earlier in another post of course!
2 + 2 = fish

;)

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Vurbal on August 29, 2013, 04:04 PM

I guess the negativity is to do with the dumbing down of language (and entertainment, and maybe even life in general...).

-tomos (August 29, 2013, 08:04 AM)

+1 - Nailed it!

Sorry Vurbal, tomos and I are changing the meanings of a few words to allow for "properly" conveying the English language's newly acquired level of dumber-ness.  :D

-Stoic Joker (August 29, 2013, 12:06 PM)

I'd love to see how you measure that.  :P

-Vurbal (August 29, 2013, 01:13 PM)

Why using the formula you gave us earlier in another post of course!
2 + 2 = fish

;)

-Stoic Joker (August 29, 2013, 03:46 PM)

You got me there. I can't very well argue with that reasoning.  :D

But now I know who was foolish enough to read it  :o

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: cranioscopical on August 29, 2013, 05:02 PM

English was in a state of flux around 1600, changing towards what we know today.

-tomos (August 29, 2013, 08:04 AM)

And thank goodness for that — I mean to say,  who'd want to kiff onef fifter?
 

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: tomos on August 29, 2013, 06:20 PM

who'd want to kiff onef fifter?

-cranioscopical (August 29, 2013, 05:02 PM)

slightly initial confusion here - because kiffen (to kiff) means something else here (http://www.dict.cc/?s=kiffen) :-)

But seriously,
why would I want to kiff *my* fifter, maybe *you* have a fifter I could kiff ?

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Target on August 29, 2013, 06:29 PM

I'd love to see how you measure that.  :P

-Vurbal (August 29, 2013, 01:13 PM)

with a dicktionary?

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: kyrathaba on August 29, 2013, 07:35 PM

Hey Vurbal, forgive my tardiness in welcoming you to the site. Welcome!

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: cranioscopical on August 29, 2013, 08:39 PM

maybe *you* have a fifter I could kiff ?

-tomos (August 29, 2013, 06:20 PM)

fo forry, fad to fay no fifter.  :(
 

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Vurbal on August 30, 2013, 06:52 AM

Hey Vurbal, forgive my tardiness in welcoming you to the site. Welcome!

-kyrathaba (August 29, 2013, 07:35 PM)

Thank you!

And congratulations on your novel!

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: kyrathaba on August 30, 2013, 03:31 PM

congratulations on your novel!

Oh! Thanks!

If you want an ebook copy, you can get one for $0.90 USD here: williambryanmiller.com

If you want a paperback and are in the US, I can get it for you cheaper than you can buy it yourself on Amazon.

Sadly, the novel doesn't distinguish itself by using any of the words mentioned in the link referenced in my OP...

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: rjbull on August 30, 2013, 03:45 PM

I think the Oxford dictionaries work on "historical principles," which means that they record how the language is being used and include new words as soon as they are established.  They aren't trying a top-down enforcement of Proper English.

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Vurbal on August 30, 2013, 04:26 PM

congratulations on your novel!

Oh! Thanks!

I you want an ebook copy, you can get one for $0.90 USD here: williambryanmiller.com

If you want a paperback and are in the US, I can get it for you cheaper than you can buy it yourself on Amazon.

Sadly, the novel doesn't distinguish itself by using any of the words mentioned in the link referenced in my OP...

-kyrathaba (August 30, 2013, 03:31 PM)

I literally have no money to spend right at the moment but it's on my short list of books to check out when that changes.

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: tomos on August 30, 2013, 05:16 PM

I think the Oxford dictionaries work on "historical principles," which means that they record how the language is being used and include new words as soon as they are established.  They aren't trying a top-down enforcement of Proper English.

-rjbull (August 30, 2013, 03:45 PM)

I read an article from Slate (http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/08/28/_twerk_and_selfie_added_to_oxford_english_dictionary_nope_and_stop_saying.html) yesterday about the Oxford dictionaries - they've diversified :-) These words were added to the Online dictionary (and maybe the next "Shorter" Oxford Dictionary?), but not to the main "Oxford English Dictionary" (OED).

• The dictionary content in ODO [Oxford Dictionaries Online] focuses on current English and includes modern meanings and uses of words
• The OED, on the other hand, is a historical dictionary and it forms a record of all the core words and meanings in English over more than 1,000 years, from Old English to the present day, including many obsolete and historical terms. Words are never removed from the OED.

THe OED one has about 20 (or whatever) volumes. The OED 'style' is based on Johnson's English dictionary. (I know that from Henry Hitching's book about Dr. Johnson's Dictionary - which was a suprisingly entertaining read btw).

the slate article was relevant to this thread, but I didnt bother posting it at the time cause the tone was just too self-righteous :-\ Reminded me of people who insist the system tray should actually be called something else...

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Target on September 15, 2013, 08:44 PM

then this from doghouse diaries today...

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perhaps I should be posting in the 'what annoys me no end' thread :huh:

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: techidave on September 16, 2013, 05:51 AM

a saying that I picked up somewhere along the line, "even if you were using perfect english, who would know it?" 

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: kyrathaba on September 23, 2013, 09:56 AM

"even if you were using perfect english, who would know it?" 

Spot on!

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Renegade on September 23, 2013, 10:13 AM

"even if you were using perfect english, who would know it?" 

Spot on!

-kyrathaba (September 23, 2013, 09:56 AM)

Yep.

English grammar in textbooks is polluted with Latin grammar. That makes for some rough learning.

"Smoothing" is a linguistic process where words and grammar change. This makes for even rougher learning.

English is a very young language, and isn't very smooth, although there is some smoothing going on right now.

For example, "There's 23 replies in this thread so far." That uses incorrect textbook grammar, but is becoming more popular (part of linguistic smoothing). The grammatically correct version is, "There're 23 replies in this thread so far."

(Number agreement is a pet peeve of mine. Just how hard is it to know the difference between 1 and any other number?)

Grammar is more important than most people think. It is the basis of all contracts and really needs some attention from more than just most people.

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: kyrathaba on September 23, 2013, 11:02 AM

I completely concur regarding the importance of grammar.

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Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Renegade on September 23, 2013, 09:31 PM

I completely concur regarding the importance of grammar.
 (see attachment in previous post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=35935.msg338515#msg338515))

-kyrathaba (September 23, 2013, 11:02 AM)

I love that pic!  :Thmbsup:

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Target on September 23, 2013, 10:02 PM

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Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: tomos on September 24, 2013, 03:54 AM

^it's amazing the number of people who use words without really thinking - what does this mean exactly (or even roughly). Or write articles without defining terms.

example

a prize example being the word 'spirituality'. Related Wikipedia page starts "The term spirituality lacks a definitive definition ..."; yet, it is very commonly used without any attempt at definition. (It's not an on-topic word for dc, hence the spoilers.)

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: tomos on September 26, 2013, 05:28 AM

spoiler

It's a good example in ways: he'd have to shoot the complete population of Ireland for the way they pronounce 'H' ;-)

Haven't heard that one about ignorami vs. ignoramuses before...

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: J-Mac on September 28, 2013, 10:52 PM

Stephen Fry has a great essay on language pedants: summarized in an article here:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/stephen-fry-takes-on-the-language-pedants/article624941/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/stephen-fry-takes-on-the-language-pedants/article624941/)

Or read the entire treatise here:  http://www.stephenfry.com/2008/11/04/dont-mind-your-language%E2%80%A6/ (http://www.stephenfry.com/2008/11/04/dont-mind-your-language%E2%80%A6/)

In the article on his page - the second link above - the part about pedantry is at least halfway down the page.

Jim

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Edvard on September 29, 2013, 02:52 AM

maybe *you* have a fifter I could kiff ?

-tomos (August 29, 2013, 06:20 PM)

fo forry, fad to fay no fifter.  :(

-cranioscopical (August 29, 2013, 08:39 PM)

Actually, that would be 'kiſs your ſiſter', consistent with the post-medieval/pre-modern usage of the archaic 'long s'^w. 
Glad to see it go, really.  I've a spelling-nazi streak in me that would have been driven to fits...

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: cranioscopical on September 29, 2013, 10:38 AM

maybe *you* have a fifter I could kiff ?

-tomos (August 29, 2013, 06:20 PM)

fo forry, fad to fay no fifter.  :(

-cranioscopical (August 29, 2013, 08:39 PM)

Actually, that would be 'kiſs your ſiſter', consistent with the post-medieval/pre-modern usage of the archaic 'long s'^w. 
Glad to see it go, really.  I've a spelling-nazi streak in me that would have been driven to fits...

-Edvard (September 29, 2013, 02:52 AM)

True, but I haven't a long s on my f-ing keyboard   :o
 

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: tomos on September 29, 2013, 11:08 AM

consistent with the post-medieval/pre-modern usage of the archaic 'long s'^w.

-Edvard (September 29, 2013, 02:52 AM)

I guess that would be related to the German "scharfes S" (= "ß" ~ "ss"/"sz").
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F

Even though long s has otherwise disappeared from German orthography, ß is still used as a ligature and is replaced by 'SS' or 'SZ' in capitalized spelling. Its German name is Eszett, the lexicalized expression for "sz", from "es-zed") or scharfes S, "sharp S").

-
seems to indicate that it co-existed with the "long s"...

I've a spelling-nazi streak in me that would have been driven to fits...

-Edvard (September 29, 2013, 02:52 AM)

-
and here I thought all along that you were this real chilled out kind of guy ;-) :p

Title: Re: Vocab tune-up
Post by: Edvard on September 29, 2013, 04:00 PM

and here I thought all along that you were this real chilled out kind of guy ;-) :p

 ;D  Well, actually, my reaction to most grammar and spelling mistakes:

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So... yeah.  ;)