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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: nosh on April 05, 2007, 01:55 AM

Title: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: nosh on April 05, 2007, 01:55 AM
I recently upgraded my mother's PC to Office 2007. She's not exactly a savvy user but was somewhat familiar with the older MSO interface and was completely lost. I had to keep listening to her complain till I relented and rolled it back to Office 2003.

Funny thing is, after I did I actually found myself envying her! I'm not a regular Office user and I've found myself fumbling on several occasions trying to perform what would have been complete no-brainer tasks on older Office versions. I miss the old menu-toolbar interface that I spent years getting familiar with and I completely HATE the ribbon. It's like MS swept the carpet from under my feet.

The only reason I haven't gone back to Office 2003 is coz I'm assuming the ribbon is here to stay and since I have made the leap I may as well stick with it so I can get used to it. Is there any news regarding future versions of Office? Do people actually like this monstrosity? At the very least they could have given us a swappable interface so people who were not comfortable with the ribbon weren't forced to use it. This seems more like a carefully calculated decision made by the finance department at MS rather than the technical one. What do those of you who've tried the ribbon interface feel?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on April 05, 2007, 02:18 AM
there have been some discussions about that here in DC.. i'm like you, going to make peace with the ribbon, when i start using Office 2007 (eventually).. ;)

here are threads:
• Ribbon vs. Toolbar, round 2 (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=4950.0)
• Will you upgrade to Microsoft Office 2007? (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=4191.0)
• Microsoft Office 2007 public Beta out now! (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=3791.0)

Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Ampa on April 05, 2007, 08:50 AM
I am a very light user of Office - occasional dips into Word (mostly for letters) and Excel for the most basic of tables, and spreadsheets - and I actually like the ribbon!

Most things do seem to be readily accessible with only a click or two, and I like that fact that I can see it, rather than knowing that there probably is an option to do task X, if only I knew which menu it was buried in.

Ampa
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on April 08, 2007, 09:09 PM
over the weekend, i have been trying out Office2007 at a friend's laptop and the new fonts - Calibri, Cambria & etc. - looked quite cool with ClearType on.. so i was wondering where to get the "Calibri" font, is it available separately on Microsoft's website.. does anyone knows anything about its availability?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Josh on April 09, 2007, 03:11 AM
Here you go.

Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: JeffK on April 09, 2007, 04:59 AM
FWIW, I think the ribbon is great, especially in Excel.  I use Excel, and to a lesser extent, Word, quit e a bit at work and I can't wait until my employer changes over from MS Office 2003 to 2007. 

I notice that Publisher 2007 does not have the ribbon.

Jeff
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: nosh on April 09, 2007, 06:17 AM
I rolled back to Office 2003 and feel relieved. To each their own I guess. Just hope MS gives people like me an option to use the old interface in future versions so everyone can be happy.

I'd even consider Open Office in the future but I've heard that it's really sluggish as of now. Office 2003 feels so light and I didn't have any complaints regarding the speed of Office 2007 either.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on April 09, 2007, 08:34 PM
thanks Josh.. :up:
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: MrCrispy on April 09, 2007, 09:23 PM
I love the ribbon. It takes some getting used to, but once you get over that, it really make sa lot more sense. You can't argue for an interface with menus nested 5 levels deep and hundreds of tabbed dialog boxes just because its familiar!

Install these - http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/results.aspx?pocId=&freetext=get%20started%20ribbon&DisplayLang=en

They add a 'Get started' tab that links to online video tutorials as well as help for users of earlier Office versions.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: AndyM on April 09, 2007, 09:52 PM
You can't argue for an interface with menus nested 5 levels deep and hundreds of tabbed dialog boxes just because its familiar!
-MrCrispy (April 09, 2007, 09:23 PM)

What you can argue with is the discontinuation of all the customizations that have been possible in Office up until now.  Sure, the ribbon might be nice for people who don't use most of the features available, but what's been good until now is that one can customize the interface to suit one's needs, using those features relevant to the work at hand.  This has made me fast and productive.  Why would I want to change to an interface that no longer allowed that?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on April 09, 2007, 09:53 PM
i don't have Office2007 installed yet but i'm curious about the ribbon since there's been so much talk about it. my experience, the more i use it the more its usability shines.. ok, once in a while there will be moments like "where is that command?" but if you use pre-Office2007 keyboard shortcuts, there is a prompt that guides you into continuing the shortcut combo.. :up:

MrCrispy, do you have the link to the video tutorials?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: zridling on April 09, 2007, 11:50 PM
I agree with JeffK that the ribbon in Excel is more helpful than Word. I truly hate the ribbon and during beta testing many of us begged and begged for more options, viz., that the huge ribbon be allowed to be docked on the side of the screen. That makes sense since most new monitors are what — widescreen! But the Microsoft Office team ignored most of our requests, and after a while we felt like we were talking to the wall. Their justification was to make it easier by REDUCING options, not increasing them. Thus the deemphasis of keyboard shortcuts. In many instances, they even added an extra key within every keyboard shortcut, which was insane to anyone who can type with both hands.

And don't get me started on backward compatibility. The MS-OOXML file format is compatible only with itself. Ironically, if you want complete compatibility with legacy Microsoft documents, along with the absense of any ribbonage, OpenOffice is the place to be, along with its fidelity to be both .doc and OASIS OpenDocument (ODF) format (http://www.opendocumentfoundation.us/index.htm). One of the things the OpenOffice are considering for version 3.0 is the ability to dock toolbars on the side, and then you have something that increases your document space on a widescreen monitor instantly: a sidebar!

It's really not rocket science, but Microsoft must have gotten its usability advice from monkeys on crack for both Vista and Office 2007.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: nosh on April 10, 2007, 02:47 AM
There's a trend with MS to go the "we know what's good for you and you don't really get to decide" way. A prime example is the way Windows is heading. I'd compare it to taking away a manual gear shift car and replacing it with an automatic transmission. While this pleases the masses, it's especially hard for those who have mastered the manual shift and miss that edge & freedom in performance. You aren't likely to see Schumi racing an automatic.  :P
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: MrCrispy on April 10, 2007, 06:17 PM
Thats funny, because guess what, Schumi does race in an automatic !! F1 cars don't have a stick shift, they ahve paddle shifters that control an auto transmission, except it doesn't have a torque converter but is a manual gear linkage with an electronic clutch. There is no way a manual transmission can ever match its performance, response time and reliability.

The same trend can be seen in many high end performance cars and is trickling down slowly. Look at BMW's SMG, Audi's DSG, the various variants of CVT etc. The old manual tranny is a an old fossil whose time has gone!

Its pretty ironic that Windows and Office are becoming more and more Mac-like (the emphasis on glossy, lickable UI's, lack of options and customizability) while the Mac moved towards the other end (being based on BSD) with OSX.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: AndyM on April 11, 2007, 12:36 AM
ok, once in a while there will be moments like "where is that command?" but if you use pre-Office2007 keyboard shortcuts, there is a prompt that guides you into continuing the shortcut combo.. :up:
-lanux128 (April 09, 2007, 09:53 PM)

What about custom toolbars, buttons, and customized menus?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Hirudin on April 11, 2007, 07:11 AM
I'm not an office user and hopefully never will be (OOo (http://www.openoffice.org/) for ever yo!). But whenever user interfaces and keyboard shortcuts are being talked about I always think of the 3 CAD/Modeling programs I was using for a while.

Rhino is pretty traditional at first, except it uses the right click button extensively. It's interface is completely customizable, you can control what each button does (both left and right clicking), if it has a sub menu, what the button looks like, how big they are, create/delete buttons and sub menus, put them anywhere, etc. It's awesome! Oh yeah, the keyboard shortcuts are customizable too. You can jump right in, or customize the crap out of it if you want. Every program should be exactly like Rhino3D!

Maya forces you to have a 3 button mouse (you can't use Maya without it) and you must have your left hand on the Ctrl, Shift, and Alt keys at all times (again, these keys are used constantly). The keyboard/mouse button combos are confusing and not intuitive (IMO at least). It's possible it's customizable, but I doubt many people do.

Last is Lightwave3D. They took all the UI conventions and threw them out the window. The thing is, they did an amazing job! Undo was changed from Ctrl+Z to just U, Redo was changed to Shift+U. Revolutionary stuff! The learning curve was high, but once you got it it's gravy. Everything was customizable, but to do so would take forever...

Sorry to talk about non-ribbon programs so much... I guess what I'm trying to say is, from what y'all have said, it sounds like MS might have something that actually works better but is going to be harder to learn in the long run. I'd stick it out.


I thought the same thing when I heard you can't put the ribbon on the side: Um, hi idiots, widescreen monitors are in in a big way. That big thing on the top is going to force people to write in an anamorphic workspace. Which, appropriately will make the font look like it does in the movies... 56pts.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: AndyM on April 11, 2007, 09:02 AM
it sounds like MS might have something that actually works better but is going to be harder to learn in the long run.
-Hirudin (April 11, 2007, 07:11 AM)

As I said, the ribbon may be fine, may even be a better interface, but what does that have to do with taking away the ability to easily customize the interface?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: CWuestefeld on April 11, 2007, 01:02 PM
the ribbon may be fine, may even be a better interface, but what does that have to do with taking away the ability to easily customize the interface?
-AndyM (April 11, 2007, 09:02 AM)

They have not taken away the ability to customize, although that capability is radically changed. There's an element of it that's far easier, but doesn't go very far, and an element that allows wholesale changes of almost anything.

The easy method is via the quick-access toolbar. Customization here is limited to choosing your favorite few items, which are then available as small icons at the very top of the window.

The second method requires manipulating XML files that describe the content of the ribbon, and probably not appropriate for anything less than an extreme power user. For your convenience, here are a few links on the topic:
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: AndyM on April 11, 2007, 01:35 PM
The second method requires manipulating XML files that describe the content of the ribbon, and probably not appropriate for anything less than an extreme power user.

And that's exactly the nature of my complaint.  Right now I can assign any vba code to any button on any toolbar, or key combination, or modify any menu, generally on the fly.

Now I'd have to edit XML files.  For the moment, fortunately there's no reason for me to upgrade.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: nosh on April 12, 2007, 12:03 PM
Thats funny, because guess what, Schumi does race in an automatic !! F1 cars don't have a stick shift, they ahve paddle shifters that control an auto transmission, except it doesn't have a torque converter but is a manual gear linkage with an electronic clutch. There is no way a manual transmission can ever match its performance, response time and reliability.
-MrCrispy (April 10, 2007, 06:17 PM)

Well technically, the transmission is semi-automatic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_cars#Transmission

And the driver does initiate gear changes. Meet me halfway here, Angelina!
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: mwb1100 on April 12, 2007, 02:35 PM
I haven't even installed any part of Office 2007, but for those of you who want 2007 but long for the old UI, this bit of software may help ($30):

http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/default.htm

I got the link from http://www.larkware.com, who's one-liner for this was, "A third-party fix for the Office 2007 UI disaster".
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Carol Haynes on April 12, 2007, 05:20 PM
I haven't even installed any part of Office 2007, but for those of you who want 2007 but long for the old UI, this bit of software may help ($30):

http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/default.htm

I got the link from http://www.larkware.com, who's one-liner for this was, "A third-party fix for the Office 2007 UI disaster".

-mwb1100 (April 12, 2007, 02:35 PM)

I love it  - a third party add-in to remove all the changes (pretty much) that are in Office 2007.

Question - why not simply stick with Office 97 / 2000 / 2003 in the first place.

AFAICS the only changes for 2007 are the UI, a few new corporate client tools and non-standard file formats ??? Unless you want the 'ribbon' interface is there any real point in upgrading unless you want some of the specific corporate mode changes?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on April 12, 2007, 08:37 PM
I found out another trick, by pressing Ctrl+F1 one can minimize the ribbon.. to make it appear temporarily, just do a mouse-over on the menu-item.. (will also work with keyboard alt accelerators)

also, check out CyberNet News.. they have very good write-ups, tips & guides on Office2007. one of which is: Office 2003 and Office 2007 Toolbar/Ribbon Size Comparison (http://tech.cybernetnews.com/2006/09/25/office-2003-and-office-2007-toolbarribbon-size-comparison/).


Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: zridling on April 13, 2007, 01:27 AM
I wrote about this last August and made a direct side-by-side visual comparison (http://www.thegsblog.com/?p=113) of both toolbars. Microsoft still denied it, but I've no idea what they were looking at. The other thing is that you cannot customize the ribbon unlike the old toolbars. That's just totally a kick in the onions.

(http://www.thegsblog.com/i/office2007-06.png)
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: CWuestefeld on April 13, 2007, 05:24 AM
The other thing is that you cannot customize the ribbon unlike the old toolbars.
-zridling (April 13, 2007, 01:27 AM)
Why do people keep saying this? Right up above in this same thread I debunked this: https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=7991.msg57106#msg57106
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: AndyM on April 13, 2007, 11:14 AM
The other thing is that you cannot customize the ribbon unlike the old toolbars.
-zridling (April 13, 2007, 01:27 AM)
Why do people keep saying this? Right up above in this same thread I debunked this: https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=7991.msg57106#msg57106
-CWuestefeld (April 13, 2007, 05:24 AM)

Like you said in your post:  "requires manipulating XML files that describe the content of the ribbon, and probably not appropriate for anything less than an extreme power user", this is not customization the old way, and the new way is way too technical for the average user.  So you are not wrong when you say the ribbon can be customized, but the reason "people keep saying this" is that MS has made the customization much more complicated.

I won't have Office 2007 for quite some time, so I don't know what's involved in editing the XML file, but I'm guessing it won't be something done as quickly or easily as Tools>Customize, and dragging some icons around.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: CWuestefeld on April 13, 2007, 11:59 AM
Naturally you're free to dislike the Office 2007 UI, and it's really none of my business whether or not you use it. But it really bothers me that people seem to be unjustly poisoning something that might be a revolution in windowing UIs. (and maybe it's not; we won't know until enough real people get to play with it)

The fact is that the O2K7 UI is customizable. Extreme changes require power-user expertise, but simple tweaks are actually easier than ever. And MS's user research (which agrees with my personal experience working with users) agrees with this:
Looking across a hundred million or so people using Office 2003, here's what we found:
  • In fewer than 2% of sessions, the program was running with customized command bars.
  • Of the 2% of sessions with customizations present, 85% included customization of four or fewer commands.

...
It breaks down like this: in ~1.9% of sessions, buttons have been added, removed, or moved between toolbars and menus...

Of the customized sessions, around 85% of them had only what we'd call minor customizations: four or fewer buttons. Most of these are added toolbar buttons, either from the command well or from a toolbar people don't want to keep up all the time...

So, we took a pragmatic approach and decided to focus on the 99.7% case: people who don't take advantage of customization or only use it to customize four or fewer commands. Out of this goal was born the Quick Access Toolbar.

The Quick Access Toolbar is designed to make it easy to add controls, galleries, and groups from anywhere in the Ribbon: just right-click the thing you want to add and choose "Add to Quick Access Toolbar" from the context menu. We designed the customization model to be efficient but with the goal of "zero customization complexity"; it would be unacceptable for customization to cause the user interface to degrade as it did so often with Command Bars.
http://blogs.msdn.com/jensenh/archive/2006/06/27/648269.aspx

So, 98% of the users do no customization and aren't affected. An additional 1.7% do very minor customization, which is actually easier now than ever before. Only 3 people in 1000 are inconvenienced by the change in customization behaviors. This seems like a big win to me. If you disagree, you should probably take a step back and consider who the primary audience of this software is.

Nevertheless, even if it's intended to cater to the vast majority of users, there's still the possibility that the manner in which it does so misses the mark. But we should let the game play out and see how users are actually able to interact with it. Convincing them that it's bad, before they ever use it, and based on an argument that's an exaggeration at best, is not going to give us the answers we need to better design our UIs in the future.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: AndyM on April 13, 2007, 04:34 PM
So, 98% of the users do no customization and aren't affected. An additional 1.7% do very minor customization, which is actually easier now than ever before. Only 3 people in 1000 are inconvenienced by the change in customization behaviors. This seems like a big win to me. If you disagree, you should probably take a step back and consider who the primary audience of this software is.
-CWuestefeld (April 13, 2007, 11:59 AM)

I don't disagree because I do understand the software has been (hopefully) engineered to work better for the majority of users.  I'm one of the .3%, so the inconvenience I will experience when/if I upgrade is the time I spend on customization.  I'm sure it will be interesting, and time consuming.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Carol Haynes on April 13, 2007, 05:17 PM
Also .3% of the user base is still a hefty number of users (probably over a million) when you consider how pandemic MS Office is on people's systems.

What about other plugin toolbars? (For example how does something like MathType integrate in Office 2007 - in all other versions it adds a toolbar, similarly Adobe Acrobat)
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Hirudin on April 14, 2007, 03:42 AM
That's great! It's always nice to have some numbers to back up what you believe. Looks like MS hit this nail right on the head here.

If the menus are customizable via XML, here is a perfect opportunity for some intrepid programmer, maybe even someone here on DC, to design an "Office2007 Menu Customizer" program that will display the current ribbon, let people customize it easily, output the XML, and maybe even inject it into O2K7 automatically. Charge $5 a pop and make some quick money, or be cool and give it away for donations.

I wonder how many Office owners NEVER open Excel?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: MrCrispy on April 14, 2007, 05:17 AM
If Office 2007 were an Apple product, everyone would be dancing and doing cartwheels over the simplicity and the ease-of-use. I want choice as much as the next guy, but there's a lot to be said for a consistent approach that serves 99% of my needs.

Most of the complaints are from people used to their shortcuts and menus from previous Office versions. Give both to a new user, let them discover how things work, and I bet they'll like 2007 much more.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Carol Haynes on April 14, 2007, 06:19 AM
BUT ... is Office 2007 really aimed at new users? Where are these new users coming from? If you wanted an Office app you have a choice of Microsoft Office (by far the major player), Corel Wordperfect Suite (long time struggling suite) and Open Office (if you want a cheap/free office app you aren't going to move to MS). There are some others out there but they are all really small fry by cmparison with MS Office !

I suppose it might be but truly new users must be a truly tiny proportion given that Office has been out there since the early 1980s in its pre-2007 format!

The ribbon is more likely to have appeared as a response to really bad publicity affecting ALL upgardes since Office 97 - namely that almost nothing new was added! No one can say there is nothing new in O2007 - whether it really lives up to the hype is another matter.

I haven't spent long playing with the ribbon but I have to confess I quite liked the approach but whether it is worth the proce of an upgrade .... I think I am skipping Office 2007 and Vista and see what happens next.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: jacquesrober on April 14, 2007, 12:13 PM
There is a possible solution to this question: to cut or not to cut.
This software: http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/default.htm can rollback the ribbon to give you the classic look of office 2003 and also keep some of the best features of the ribbon.
It is not free and can also apply to excel.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: MrCrispy on April 14, 2007, 05:13 PM
Carol, what I was trying to say is that the Office time took the risk to totally revamp the interface and break backwards compatibility to make it better, after they did a lot fo research to find out what would make the best UI. All the complaints about the ribbon bar are that its too unfamiliar, not about its usability.

The biggest market for Office is business desktops and I imagine all new employees would count as new users :) But I agree that the majority of people will have to undergo a significant adjustment period for Office 2007 and Vista. Is that a good thing? Depends on how you feel about change!
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: wasker on April 22, 2007, 09:33 PM
I tried O2007 beta -- Ribbon is fantastic.

About screen real estate: it could be "auto hidden", so I don't see any problems here.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on April 22, 2007, 09:52 PM
About screen real estate: it could be "auto hidden", so I don't see any problems here.
-wasker (April 22, 2007, 09:33 PM)
exactly, that was my point here (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=7991.msg57389#msg57389).. :) not to mention the 'guided' keyboard shortcuts.. but the ribbon has become something of love-it or hate-it object.. :)

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: zridling on April 23, 2007, 01:57 AM
MrCrispy I beg to differ. The problem with the ribbon is that it wasn't researched using Microsoft users, only a few Microsoft Office developers. No user called for a big, fat, steaming pile of icons that seem fit for a 1st grader (no insult intended) rather than a computer user. Microsoft Office is the de facto office suite software, and the "problem" they described was that users weren't using enough of Office's features. However, the ribbon isn't the answer. Brian Jones has let it slip a few times that the origin of the ribbon was to lock down Office's interface; to prevent broad customizations by users because it made tech support's job more difficult.

Think about that. Who's doing tech support for the entire world these days? Not someone in Redmond, but "Susan" or "Mark" in India.

I had a contract in 2006 to introduce Office 2007 by beta-testing it among twelve small businesses, and not a single one of them voted to move to it by the end of the year. They all voted to stay with Office 2003 or migrate to OpenOffice 2.x. On the contrary, new users were perplexed on where to find things. Experienced users even more so, because the new UI is just inefficient — if you can type. If you can't type more than a few words a minute, then keeping one hand on the mouse with the ribbon is a really, really slow way to create documents. It's not change people are afraid of, it's screwing up a good thing (as Vista did with so many UI elements) such as Word 2007's keyboard shortcuts!
;)
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: JeffK on April 23, 2007, 02:05 AM
I can't type, and that's probably why the ribbon doesn't appear to slow me down.  I like the improved right click menu in Excel 2007.

However I also have NovaMind mindmapping program which has an Office 2007 lookalike ribbon.  And it does slow me down.  It makes the ability to quickly add branches and subbranches to a mindmap quite slow and counter intuitive compared with similr applications IMHO.

Jeff
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Carol Haynes on April 23, 2007, 03:57 AM
I don't object to change (or the ribbon idea) what is daft is that they haven't offered it as an option!

If users could choose the ribbon or trad interface that would be ideal as it would cater for experienced users who like to customise or just find the old ways more efficient for them and also the '1st graders' with the nice pretty piccy interface.

Changing shortcuts is just plain stupid - talk about setting out to alienate their user base ! Good shortcuts become instinctive with use - changing them is like giving users a whole new keyboard with the need to learn to type again from scratch.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: wasker on April 23, 2007, 06:28 AM
MrCrispy I beg to differ. The problem with the ribbon is that it wasn't researched using Microsoft users, only a few Microsoft Office developers.
-zridling (April 23, 2007, 01:57 AM)

Oh yeah? I should check my badge -- maybe I'm 'softie already. :P
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: dhuser on April 23, 2007, 08:33 AM
The ribbon was a good idea before it was developed and put into practice. I agree that the ribbon might cause confusion and and is wasting space.

Most new ideas are praised, until they are put into practice.

(On a side note, the CompUSA store that it is closing by me, has Windows Vista CDs for 40% Off and is sold out of Office 2007 CDs.:tellme:)

dhuser
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: wasker on April 23, 2007, 06:05 PM
dhuser: where're you? Maybe I should stop by and shop... :)
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: dhuser on April 23, 2007, 06:39 PM
dhuser: where're you? Maybe I should stop by and shop... :)
-wasker (April 23, 2007, 06:05 PM)

In Long Island, New York...
Google Map (of CompUSA Store location)- http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=compusa+store&near=Westbury,+NY&cid=0,0,13304591754440360243&ll=40.731608,-73.612291&spn=0,.02&sa=X&oi=local&ct=image

(it is about a 15-20 minute trip from my house)
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Curt on May 14, 2007, 10:38 AM
Ribbon haters should read Computerwold (http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9017851)'s article about  pschmid's RibbonCustomizer (http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/30/) (Free or $30 Pro versions) and Addintools' Classic Menu (http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/) (several versions at $15-$30).


Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Curt on May 17, 2007, 06:08 PM
Ribbon haters should read Computerwold (http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9017851)'s article about  pschmid's CustomizeRibbons (http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer/index.php) (Free or $30 Pro versions) and Addintools' Classic Menu (http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/) (several versions at $15-$30).
-Curt (May 14, 2007, 10:38 AM)

They have been around just as long as Office 2007 itself, but maybe you missed them, or just didn't think of it. But it seems to me, from your wordings, that these two plugins must be very interesting to you, since you "love to hate" those ribbons that much... 
 :P
- sorry!  :-[  I am only trying to wake you up...   8)

RibbonCustomizer™ Professional V1.1 (http://pschmid.net/office2007/ribboncustomizer/index.php), $30 - Feature Tour:



- and the other:

Addintools Classic Menu for Office 2007 (http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/) $30, "full" version 2.18 of April 15, 2007:

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/)

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/)

Now; Who is going to try out these plugins, and let us know the outcome?
 :tellme:
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 17, 2007, 06:20 PM
Bit bizarre that people have to spend $30 to remove the main difference in O2007 - isn't the simpler solution to stick with Office 97/2000/XP/2003 that you used before? What is the point of the upgrade without the ribbon interface? (That's why I am not bothering).
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Curt on May 17, 2007, 06:26 PM
Yes, if you are a private user, but most users aren't. They work at the office and don't have a say on what program they are to use, have they.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Grorgy on May 17, 2007, 06:49 PM
I s'pose someday i'll be forced to upgrade, but at $500 or $600 to get the basics or around $1000 for the lot, i'm going to put it off for as long as possible, Office 2003 does all i require and a load more besides, most of which i probably dont even know about  :-[ 
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 18, 2007, 02:18 AM
Yes, if you are a private user, but most users aren't. They work at the office and don't have a say on what program they are to use, have they.
-Curt (May 17, 2007, 06:26 PM)

And most of those Office workers won't be allowed to install extra plugins to revert to a preferred interface anyway!
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on May 18, 2007, 02:27 AM
TechRepublic have this interesting PowerPoint presentation that encourages users to upgrade to Office2007. they also have another presentation that says that "Sticking with Office 2003 is a better choice than Office 2007" but it is only for paying members..

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
http://downloads.techrepublic.com.com/download.aspx?&docid=295809

Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Curt on May 18, 2007, 08:14 AM
TechRepublic ... encourages users to upgrade to Office2007. They also ... say that "Sticking with Office 2003 is a better choice than Office 2007" but .. for paying members..
-lanux128 (May 18, 2007, 02:27 AM)

 :o

I just might loose any kind of faith in such a company!  :mad:
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Curt on November 20, 2007, 07:48 AM
Ribbon haters should read Computerwold (http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9017851)'s article about  pschmid's RibbonCustomizer (http://pschmid.net/blog/2006/11/30/) (Free or $30 Pro versions) and Addintools' Classic Menu (http://www.addintools.com/english/menuoffice/) (several versions at $15-$30).
-Curt (May 14, 2007, 10:38 AM)

A new and third way has arrived: [Edit: $30]

We are pleased to announce our latest new product:
PowerPlugs: Classic Menu for Office 

• Brings the Office 2003-style menus and toolbars back to Microsoft Office 2007
• Adds familiar menu access to all the new features and tools of Office 2007
• Keeps all the ribbon tabs of Office 2007 fully intact, so you can get the best of both worlds.
• Works seamlessly inside of PowerPoint, Word, Excel, Outlook and even Access
• Supports all languages supported by Office 2007

For a limited time you can get PowerPlugs: Ultimate Combo for PowerPoint (which now includes PowerPlugs: Classic Menu for Office) for just $299. That’s almost 80% off the price of buying all 10 included products separately. Hurry! Don’t miss out. Offer ends Dec. 31st.

Visit CrystalGraphics.com (http://www.crystalgraphics.com/powerpoint/classicmenu.main.asp?p=emClassicMenue1) 

About CrystalGraphics - CrystalGraphics is the leading developer and publisher of affordable add-ons and services that enhance Microsoft Office. Winner of numerous awards including the coveted Standing Ovation Award from Presentations magazine three out of four years for "Best PowerPoint Plug-ins" and "Best PowerPoint Templates" for our PowerPlugs product line. CrystalGraphics brings the power and excitement of TV-style graphics and special effects to Microsoft Office.
-PowerPlugs
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: cranioscopical on November 20, 2007, 09:21 AM
A new and third way has arrived:
We are pleased to announce our latest new product:
PowerPlugs: Classic Menu for Office 

Brings the Office 2003-style menus and toolbars back to Microsoft Office 2007
For a limited time you can get PowerPlugs: Ultimate Combo for PowerPoint (which now includes PowerPlugs: Classic Menu for Office) for just $299.
Visit CrystalGraphics.com (http://www.crystalgraphics.com/powerpoint/classicmenu.main.asp?p=emClassicMenue1) 
-PowerPlugs
-Curt (November 20, 2007, 07:48 AM)

Thanks for the information, Curt.
I glanced too quickly at your post and the figure of $299 surprised me.
I see that the piece to which you refer is more than reasonable.
PowerPlugs: Classic Menu for Office (Plugs into Office 2007) $29.95

Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: edbro on November 20, 2007, 09:43 AM
I used Office 2007 for about 6 months in conjunction with the free version of RibbonCustomizer. The add in worked great but for the life of me, I couldn't see anything in 2007 that was better than 2003. 2007 was very slow for me and as I said, I needed a 3rd party utility to get the functionality I wanted. I went back to 2003 (except for OneNote) and I couldn't be happier. Very snappy and I prefer the menus to the ribbon.

Here's another beef: Just because I loaded OneNote from my 2007 disk, MS keeps wanting to install updates for Word 2007, Excel 2007, etc. Not to mention the frequent Outlook junk mail updates despite the fact that I never installed Outlook to begin with from either Office version. :mad:
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: armatostr on November 20, 2007, 10:43 AM
I started using 2007, and really liked the ribbon , my sister and dad love this version and they are long time word users. Once she got very angry at me when i removed it from her old computer  and installed 2003 instead, now 2007 is back. But now i'm trapped with OOo, i lost my installation disc... i miss it :( .. yeah i don't really like OOo that much especially because it crashes when using it during long work sessions.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Ralf Maximus on November 20, 2007, 10:49 AM
I used Office 2007 for about 6 months in conjunction with the free version of RibbonCustomizer. The add in worked great but for the life of me, I couldn't see anything in 2007 that was better than 2003. 2007 was very slow for me and as I said, I needed a 3rd party utility to get the functionality I wanted. I went back to 2003 (except for OneNote) and I couldn't be happier. Very snappy and I prefer the menus to the ribbon.
-edbro (November 20, 2007, 09:43 AM)

This has been my experience exactly.  Add in Office2007's gargantuan memory footprint, its weird behavior sometimes with extra-huge Word tables, the needless reorganization of the interface leading me to hunt ceaselessly for features I used in Office 2003... and I'm glad I retrograded.

The good news: internally, from a COM/object perspective Microsoft did an excellent job of not breaking anything.  I no longer even test new builds of my software against 2007 unless a customer reports a platform-specific bug.

Now... following this trend, should I retrograde to Office 2000?  The file formats are (mostly) the same and that 12 megabyte(!) memory footprint so very sexy.

Anyone run 2000 vs. 2003 recently?  What would I miss?
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: edbro on November 20, 2007, 11:00 AM
Now... following this trend, should I retrograde to Office 2000?  The file formats are (mostly) the same and that 12 megabyte(!) memory footprint so very sexy.
-Ralf Maximus (November 20, 2007, 10:49 AM)

No, but it does fall in line with my retrograding trend. I dumped Vista for XP 2 months ago. It was like seeing an old friend again.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: nontroppo on November 20, 2007, 11:37 AM
As I remember it, images in Word 2000 caused far more problems when they jump all over the document due to anchoring restrictions. That got better in 2003 IIRC, and saved me hours of hair tearing frustration.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Curt on January 01, 2008, 06:55 AM
Seems someone, but not just "someone", does not hate the ribbons:

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://cybernetnews.com/2007/12/31/2007-cybernet-awards-most-productive-apps/)

2007 CyberNet Awards:
Most Productive Apps

Posted: 31 Dec 2007 04:50 PM CST

1'st Place:
Microsoft Office 2007

I couldn’t help but give Microsoft first place in this category (http://cybernetnews.com/2007/12/31/2007-cybernet-awards-most-productive-apps/). Their new Office 2007 has made me a hundred times more productive thanks to the intuitive Ribbons that have replaced the old-fashioned toolbars. I find myself using features I never knew existed, and it looks so darn good. Yeah, I’m a sucker for eye candy.

I first started using Microsoft Office 2007 (http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx) over a year ago when it was still in the pre-release stage. It took a few weeks to get accustomed to where some of the options had moved to, but in the end I find myself saving loads of time. A big thanks goes out to the developers who came up with the idea for “live previews,” because that alone deserves a gold medal. And the Mini Toolbar is sheer genius.

So could it be that some haters didn't thoroughly check out the features before starting hating?

http://cybernetnews.com/2007/12/31/2007-cybernet-awards-most-productive-apps/
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on January 01, 2008, 07:48 AM
i'd like to quote myself from an earlier post. since then, i've installed Office2007 and it goes without saying that i'm a happy camper.. :)
 
i don't have Office2007 installed yet but i'm curious about the ribbon since there's been so much talk about it. my experience, the more i use it the more its usability shines.. ok, once in a while there will be moments like "where is that command?" but if you use pre-Office2007 keyboard shortcuts, there is a prompt that guides you into continuing the shortcut combo.. :up:
-lanux128 (April 09, 2007, 09:53 PM)
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: CWuestefeld on March 10, 2009, 10:06 AM
For you Ribbon haters, I just stumbled on a free solution. I'm linking through FreewareGenius (http://www.freewaregenius.com/2009/03/07/ubitmenu-use-the-office-2003-interface-in-office-2007/), since the program's page is in German:
UbitMenu is a free add-on for MS Office 2007 that provides the option to use an MS Office 2003-style interface alongside Office 2007’s "Ribbons" style interface. It is installed as an additional menu in Office 2007 applications (Excel, Word, and PowerPoint), allowing for switching back and forth at will between the older and newer style interfaces.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Direct link to download page: http://www.ubit.ch/software/ubitmenu-languages/#c205

Note: I haven't even tried this, as I like the ribbon. I just offer it as a possible solution for those who disagree with me.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: lanux128 on March 10, 2009, 08:59 PM
UbitMenu's advantage is that it allows the user to keep the ribbons interface. this way, they can refer to the menu tab when they are in a hurry and switch back to ribbons for 'normal' usage.
Title: Re: To cut or not to cut - The lousy MS Office ribbon
Post by: Mizraim on March 11, 2009, 08:47 AM
Having been using Office 2007 for some time; and being a Keyboard enthusiast, I usually have the ribbon minimized. There are always occasions when I do open it and use it, but for the most part, I think it uses up too much of my Widescreen. :) I like how they grouped things and made it, in my opinion, easier to find specific tools embedded within Office.

I have been a huge fan of Microsoft Office, and this one take the cake for me.