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This is an ongoing general thread for Windows 7 development discussion. News, rumors, and screenshots are being released daily and it will be fun to get your take on the latest.
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Mary Jo Foley (http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1605) says, "Windows 7's mail, photo-management and movie-maker subsystems applets are all being replaced by optionally installable Windows Live equivalents."
Welcome news in that it removes duplicate apps. (Mary Jo later corrected her "subsystems" word, as many of had no idea that Vista/7 included a movie-maker subsystem!)
Also, I love the detail in this dialog screenshot:
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Win7's new taskbar detailed:
http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/09/23/user-interface-starting-launching-and-switching.aspx
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2zridling
It looks like a joke similar to Leopard's 300+ new features (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html).
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Windows problem is they will not put good picture or movie programs in their operating system.
While you can buy a mac and have about everything you need for anything in the OS. Windows remains featureless. Or the same features with a different look.
So you have to get programs that do things, rather then already having them built in, which is inherently faster.
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2cmpm
I think they could but there are some cons of it.
The biggest ones are complains from competitors which end up with stupid lawsuits like EU vs. MS in the case of WMP.
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And you shall be named... Windows 7 (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/10/13/introducing-windows-7.aspx). No, seriously.
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I don't get this thread. All the screen shots look exactly like Vista does right now.
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Well, so early in development it's natural. It should be said that given that Windows 7 is slated to be an improvement of Vista more than a new OS, don't be surprised if it ends up looking mostly the same.
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Well, so early in development it's natural. It should be said that given that Windows 7 is slated to be an improvement of Vista more than a new OS, don't be surprised if it ends up looking mostly the same.
-Lashiec
I'm just confused that Zaine mentioned new Windows Live components, but shows a picture of Vista SideBar Gadgets. Also he mentions the new Taskbar which looks exactly like Vista's Taskbar to me.
So what's confusing me is the mentioning of new features but looking at pictures of stuff that's been around since Vista RC1 from two years ago.
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Ah, OK. In the case of the taskbar, actually that's the Windows Vista taskbar, and the picture was present in the blog article linked there, to illustrate the starting point from which they'll improve it in Windows 7. In the other case of the other picture, I really don't have any idea, but it's clearly not related :D
The PDC is near, so I guess there we'll see something that looks different from Vista, even if it's only in terms of new features.
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still waiting for Cairoshell (http://www.cairoshell.com/) which is complete replacement for both explorer the desktop and explorer the My Computer.
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Is it my imagination of is Windows 7 (now the prosaically official title of the new OS - see here (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2228172/microsoft-confuses-keeping)) just going to be a charged update bugfix (new bugs) to Vista ?
Windows 7 = Vista SP2/3 or am I missing something?
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Is it my imagination of is Windows 7 (now the prosaically official title of the new OS - see here (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2228172/microsoft-confuses-keeping)) just going to be a charged update bugfix (new bugs) to Vista ?
Windows 7 = Vista SP2/3 or am I missing something?
-Carol Haynes
Starting to look that way >:( Looks like they've taken a page out of Corel's playbook (witness the annual paid upgrades for PaintShop Pro that do little or nothing more than fix bugs from the previous version and introduce a bunch more bugs to be fixed in the next paid release!). Now, if they go the Apple route and release a single package that provides all versions of the software for about $120 I don't have a problem with this. However, they are more apt to add several new versions and charge a substantial amount even to upgrade from, say, Home Premium to Home Premium. REALLY hope I'm wrong about the latter, "onto something" with the Apple analogy, and wrong about the Corel analogy...
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I like going back to simple numbering over fancy/faux names and years. I find Ubuntu's numbers fine, but their naming scheme is truly dumb imo. But a ribbon touch calc? NOOOO!!
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That calculator is terrible! It doesn't even follow the standard numpad layout! :sick:
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Honestly, is there a need to conserve screenspace for a calculator? Give me everything at a glance.
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We'll know a LOT more in a week when PDC starts.
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A ribbon for calc? Holy Hoffmann!
I hope that's a joke. Otherwise somebody needs to be dragged outside and shot.
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I just ran across this article. It's rather vague, but apparently Microsoft is even looking beyond Win7 to dropping the monolithic OS model.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7540282.stm
Microsoft has kicked off a research project to create software that will take over when it retires Windows.
Called Midori, the cut-down operating system is radically different to Microsoft's older programs.
It is centred on the internet and does away with the dependencies that tie Windows to a single PC.
It is seen as Microsoft's answer to rivals' use of "virtualisation" as a way to solve many of the problems of modern-day computing.
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When asked about Midori by BBC News, Microsoft issued a statement that said: "Midori is one of many incubation projects underway at Microsoft. It's simply a matter of being too early in the incubation to talk about it."
Whaddya think?
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In many ways, Midori is already being built by Google. I don't think the OS will ever go away, but this decade has rapidly advanced toward a webcentric computer rather than an app-centric one.
As software gets bigger, it exponentially more difficult to organize. Once it's big, as in XP-big, then it's much harder to get consumers to move to Vista-big. In other words, the days of the dominant software vendor dictating where the market will go with a single new product are gone. Too many Windows users were happy with XP and and too many new Vista users were unhappy with their choice.
Microsoft is rethinking the whole enterprise. And that's a very good thing.
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I am not too happy about the idea of a webcentric OS on my computer. There are a number of issues including connectivity (there are still loads of people in my area on dial up because broadband is unavailable to them, plus what about the cost of mobile broadband - in the UK it is still ridiculously expensive) and application quality.It is impressive what you can do with some online apps but they are nowhere near ready to replace desktop apps, and what about large scale apps like video and photo editing?
It seems to me that as media quality improves exponentially (in terms of digital photography, video and audio) and the file sizes get larger the web will be unable to cope with dealing with such files.
It is going to take a large scale change too in the ISP infrastructure as currently most ISPs offer fast download speeds on broadband (though noticeably worse in the UK than the rest of Europe) but upload speeds are painfully slow. I presume this is to stop consumers realistically hosting websites and web applications in their homes but it also means that any sort of data transfer up to an application site is currently impractical unless you have a lot of time to waste and drink a lot of coffee!
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I am not too happy about the idea of a webcentric OS on my computer.-Carol Haynes
Nor am I. I thought this was a terrible idea 15 years ago and think it is a worse idea now. Accessibility is, obviously an issue, but security has only become a greater problem in the past few years. :down:
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Can someone here point me to the correct thread for a webapps vs. traditional software ? Sorry, I just couldn't find it.
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I am not too happy about the idea of a webcentric OS on my computer. There are a number of issues including connectivity (there are still loads of people in my area on dial up because broadband is unavailable to them, plus what about the cost of mobile broadband - in the UK it is still ridiculously expensive) and application quality.It is impressive what you can do with some online apps but they are nowhere near ready to replace desktop apps, and what about large scale apps like video and photo editing?-[b]Carol Haynes[/b]
Boy, are you absolutely right, Carol. Internet access here in the US is still too expensive, and it's the one thing for which the price never goes down. And typically, upload speeds in the US are 70-80% slower than download speeds, which makes the whole exercise a waste of time. Richard Stallman (https://www.fsf.org/) of the FSF has the same concerns, including vendor lock-in issues. Open formats using open standards should prevent a good deal of worry for data portability.
But the speed issue is a real one. The first response has been to allow webware to include a local version on your HD, so that when you're not connected, you still work just as if you're using regular desktop software. For Google and Zoho, for example, when you log on, your local files can be set to auto-sync with your online files, giving you the best of both worlds -- HD crashes? Your data is elsewhere and can be retrieved. The web vendor garbles your data? You've got a copy on your HD.
Perhaps 'Windows Strata' -- Microsoft's rumored cloud OS -- will address these very real concerns. Computing should always become faster and less encumbered. Never the opposite.
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Strata? I thought that was what Midori was... :huh:
Either way, here's some links to Mr. Stallman's thoughts on the cloud -
Stallman: Cloud computing is 'stupidity' (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10054253-92.html)
Cloud computing is a trap, warns GNU founder Richard Stallman (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman)
Hehe, somebody forgot to warn the Ubuntu bigwigs:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10055894-16.html
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OK, since you guys are talking about it a little here...
I just don't see how webcentric applications can offer the speed of software on your PC. How can the data feed through the connection (fiber optic, ethernet, cable, dsl, etc.) compare with the actual processing hardware and that local speed generated from the RAM, CPU, hard disk, etc.? I have a hard time believing that the interaction through the web can be as fast as a local interaction with your own hardware.
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It can't be as fast - but if you are using a word processor to write a one page letter over fast broadband it isn't going to be a problem. Now try and write a book with illustrations and you'll see how crap it will be.
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I just don't like web apps...I think that's it. I don't like the way they feel, if that makes any sense.
As far as being able to work anywhere and stuff, I'd prefer to just setup a robust synchronization system based upon my personal needs rather than have an OS manage it all in a general way.
On the other hand, I really do hate how Windows is way too slow given whatever hardware you have. That's my big wish for OS's, to just make one that doesn't bog down just because you've installed a lot of apps or have not reinstalled in x number of years. If all you're doing is info management, like office applications, minimal graphics applications or things that require heavy cpu usage, I don't see why even an old computer should be slow.
How off topic am I?
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As far as being able to work anywhere and stuff, I'd prefer to just setup a robust synchronization system based upon my personal needs rather than have an OS manage it all in a general way.
-superboyac
USB thumbdrive all the way for me... I can pick up a 16GB Sandisk Cruzer Micro right now for under $40 where I am. With that kind of capacity I can put all of my documents AND enouhg portable apps to sink the Bismarck on the thing... Heck, I already do that with my 8GB version of the same drive and I can't fill it!
I'm with you on the optimized OS idea as well. Dammit! I've waited 20 years for quad core and terabyte drives and gigabytes of RAM. I want the computer to be so fast when I'm using it that it peels the skin off my face! Then I wouldn't need to exfoliate...
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This in from Windows 7 News ( http://windows7news.com/ )
Channel9 announced recently that they will post recordings of all PDC08 sessions on their website for everyone to view. Each session should not take more than 24 hours after taking place to find its way on the Channel 9 homepage which is an excellent opportunity for anyone not attending to view the sessions and discover all the exciting news about Windows 7.
Link to full article: http://windows7news.com/2008/10/20/channel-9-to-offer-all-pdc08-sessions/
This is welcome news for anyone who needs to stay on top of Windows 7 yet doesn't have 4 free days; airfare to LA, and a $2,395 registration fee(!) handy.
Thank you Mssrs. Blair and Brinkmann of Windows 7 News :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:
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I just don't like web apps...I think that's it. I don't like the way they feel, if that makes any sense.
-superboyac
I have to agree. Even if speed isn't that much of a problem (I don't have high-speed broadband here but I remember browsing from a public library in Toronto, I'd click on a normal sized mp3 online and it would start playing like it was on the HDD), reliability very much is, and will be for years to come. How often does one witness technology fcuking up at the highest level? CNN/BBC anchors losing audio with each other... :/
Online apps make excellent backup alternatives but it would really suck to be shut out of your OS coz the Internets are broken.
How off topic am I?
Not off topic enough to stop me from taking it a bit further. :P
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I just don't like web apps...I think that's it. I don't like the way they feel, if that makes any sense.
As far as being able to work anywhere and stuff, I'd prefer to just setup a robust synchronization system based upon my personal needs rather than have an OS manage it all in a general way.
-superboyac
You are not alone in your opinion. I can't stand web apps. I still call my computer a personal computer.
We spent the last 30 years getting away from time-sharing terminals on tightly controlled mainframes. Now it seems we're trying to go right back there. The only real difference between a web app and a terminal/mainframe "solution" is that the terminals are smarter; and the monolithic mainframes have since been reborn as clusters of machines spread out all over creation. This is progress?
Then there's 'reality' to think about. I saw a major US city completely paralyzed by the destruction of only two of its major buildings just a few years ago. In the wake of that, why would anybody want to put all their computing eggs in one basket? Is the Internet backbone really all that bulletproof? It was designed to absorb physical damage - not cyber-attacks. The very technologies that allow its datagrams to withstand a nuclear strike also make it very difficult to hunt down and extinguish any malware that exploits its decentralized robustness.
This is not paranoia. This is the simple acknowledgment that a major piece of critical technology is built on a foundation of wishful thinking about how the world would use it. William Gibson summed it up best with his most famous quote: "The Street finds its own uses for things."
IMHO -"web for everything" is a real bad idea. Dangerous too. :nono2:
How off topic am I?
Dunno...looks to me like you rammed a wooden stake right into the heart of the subject. :Thmbsup:
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It's a shame there's really no way to display emphasis in programming, otherwise I'd have used it in conjunction with:
Portable Software > *
;)
Ehtyar.
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Web based/cloud computing is not just limited to running apps on remote servers. There's nothing preventing an app having a cached local copy of its program, data and services, and using that for performance, and accessing the cloud when its not cached, to update itself etc. In fact .NET contains these mechanisms today. At work we have intranet apps deployed using ClickOnce that run locally, but if there's a new version it gets downloaded and installed locally automatically.
Cloud computing is also the only way I see to have a truly universal presence - i.e having the same computing experience no matter where you are or what device you use to access the cloud (i.e. the internet). Think about email. Today many of us take webmail for granted. I know for sure that without gmail I would never be able to send/receive mail from multiple places and have it all be in sync. Could you do this with a normal desktop email client? Esp without IMAP?
The way I see it, Azure is Microsoft's technology to bring highly scalable distributed apps, the sort of thing Google does (gmail, search, maps) to the Windows audience with a very strong developer base.
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[MrCrispy]: (1) Cloud computing is also the only way I see to have a truly universal presence.... (2) Azure is Microsoft's technology to bring highly scalable distributed apps....
The great advantage to #1 is that it's platform-independent; OS choice recedes, while personal choice increases. The great disadvantage to #2 is if Microsoft tries to create a walled online community, much like they did with MSN back in 1995-96. (AOL was the first?)
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Oh yeah, good point...AOL. AOL sucked.
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Web based/cloud computing is not just limited to running apps on remote servers. There's nothing preventing an app having a cached local copy of its program, data and services, and using that for performance, and accessing the cloud when its not cached, to update itself etc. In fact .NET contains these mechanisms today. At work we have intranet apps deployed using ClickOnce that run locally, but if there's a new version it gets downloaded and installed locally automatically.
-MrCrispy
I think the scenario you're describing here is more a mixture of Thin Client or Client/Server, network update services, and remote backup applications than what most "cloud" providers are envisioning. There's nothing new with that. Citrix and others have been providing services like those for years.
But if you're dependent on a server to push an application or data down to a local PC, you still have a single point of failure regardless of whether your apps and data are cached locally or not. It also presumes the presence of electrical power to the client machine if the caching is done to RAM rather than to disk. Which may be fine if a only a single building or city block has been blacked out. It's becomes a bigger problem when there's a full-bore regional power outage that not only takes out your PC, but also your company data center located 500 miles away - along with all the network routers in between!
If my network is down when I come into work, I can still use Excel or Word if they're installed on my hard drive. But if I'm running something like Citrix, or a web app suite, I can't do much of anything other than boot up. And if I'm running a pure thin client, I can't even do that. In short - no server or network connection - no party.
And that's where the problem lies.
The whole idea, and driving force, behind cloud computing and web applications is that they will eventually replace the desktop rather than augment it.
Software companies, much like the movie and music business, want to get out of issuing hard media and do everything via networks. Networks they own and control. And once that infrastructure gets adopted, the era of personal computing will come to an end. Unfortunately, much of the flexibility and choices we seem to take for granted in our computing environment will go out the door with it. Information will become just one more regulated utility, no different than water, gas, or electricity..
And we all know how well utilities have fostered technical innovation. Like Henry Ford said, you can get it in any color so long as it's black. *;D
*(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/SMARTASS.GIF)For Extra Credit:
Do you know why the Model-T Ford was only manufactured with a black finish?
The answer had absolutely nothing to do with what was best for the customer - and everything to do with what worked best for the Ford Motor Company. Look it up if you don't believe!
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For Extra Credit:[/b]
Do you know why the Model-T Ford was only manufactured with a black finish?
The answer had absolutely nothing to do with what was best for the customer - and everything to do with what worked best for the Ford Motor Company. Look it up if you don't believe!
[/color]
-40hz
Hence, the famous quip attributed to Henry Ford:
You can havea Model T in any colour you like as long as it's black
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[40hz]: Software companies, much like the movie and music business, want to get out of issuing hard media and do everything via networks. Networks they own and control. And once that infrastructure gets adopted, the era of personal computing will come to an end. Unfortunately, much of the flexibility and choices we seem to take for granted in our computing environment will go out the door with it.
To me that means a boon for two things: (1) open source apps, who are not [necessarily] dependent on outside income, or any income. Every medium like Azure will likely be tied to a TOS (terms of service) agreement which will start out strict and only become more restrictive over time. Break one rule and you've broke them all. No notice; no warning; your 'cloud' data is locked until you pay up or submit. (2) Local storage devices, notably HDs.
From what little I've read, however, Microsoft is pushing Azure for business, not for users. Is that right?
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Is it me, or do most of the changes and improvements in Windows 7 seem sort of irrelevant in the big picture? I don't know about you guys, but I really could care less about how the windows and transparencies look, I don't care what media players are updated because I'm just going to use something else that's better, I don't care about improved start button or anything like that.
What I do care about is:
--Is it fast? Seriously? If I have a quad-core system and all I do is email, office applications, web browsing (i.e. not gaming or anything that is remotely intensive to the system), does the system as a whole feel speedy and fast? I mean, honestly, I use windows now and it doesn't seem all that much faster than what I was doing 5 years ago. And will it slow down for no reason after using it for a couple of years. Just because you've installed a lot of software doesn't mean a system should slow down.
--Is it going to be easy to use and tweak, and not be overly paranoid about security and such?
--Speed, speed, speed!!! I can't emphasize this enough. I want fast to boot, fast to shut down, fast to open multiple applications. TO me, it just feels like that the increase in processing power over the years hasn't translated to an increase in speed.
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So, er, reading between the lines, I'm sensing that overall performance is an issue for you, Superboyac?
Please try to be more clear in the future - these vague, touchy-feely posts are really hard to decipher :P
Seriously, Vista on a dual-core system with 3GB RAM is PLENTY quick!
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So, er, reading between the lines, I'm sensing that overall performance is an issue for you, Superboyac?
Please try to be more clear in the future - these vague, touchy-feely posts are really hard to decipher :P
Seriously, Vista on a dual-core system with 3GB RAM is PLENTY quick!
-Darwin
Haha, yeah, speed is pretty much my main concern. Your Vista may be fast now, but will it be fast in 5 years? My point is, the system shouldn't slow down just because some time has passed. That's what happens to Windows. I say this as a person who doesn't do really that much that requires a lot of processing power. Like, my virus protection now shouldn't be that much slower in 5 years on the same computer. It's just virus protection. Outlook 2010 shouldn't be that much slower than 2007 on the same computer. It's just a freakin email program. It's stuff like that that bothers me. What is happening over time that makes the computer slow down like that? I can understand why gamers need new systems every few years, or graphic designers, or other people who deal with programs that really need the latest and greatest installed. But I see no reason why office users should feel severe performance hits just because it's been 5 years. Hell, even 10 years from now, things should be relatively quick in my view. Programs shouldn't add unnecessary bulk and OS's shouldn't slow down for no reason.
OK, I think I'm off topic...again.
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PCMag snagged a milestone build of Windows 7 - here's a peek:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2333434,00.asp
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Incidentally, re: Windows slow down over time - I didn't really experience this with either Win2k or WinXP. I found it easier to keep my systems "clean" with these NT based OS's and have been very happy with both. I think the big problem is that software that we install down the road is "optimized" for hardware that is often higher spec than our systems because what is "high-end" today is "average" tomorrow. Don't know if that is clear or not... Probably not - I'm running on a couple of nights of fractured sleep and can think clearly only of a pillow. And my duvet.
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There are some features in Windows 7 apart from the UI which are exciting -
- Fastboot (or whatever its called), which speeds up booting by parallelizing device initialization among other things
- support for VHD's (virtual hard disk). This should revolutionalize backup and imaging. Imagine backing up your pc to a vhd image and then booting up another pc from it over the network.
- New engineering process (http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/10/15/engineering-7-a-view-from-the-bottom.aspx) should make the OS more stable
Honestly, I was expecting more. Someof the stuff which is not there (or not announced yet at any rate)
- MinWin kernel
- ditching legacy compatibility and running all legacy apps in a VM
- application virtualization (SoftGrid) technology
- optimizing the OS binaries to contain only new API's and cut out the fat (sort of what Snow Leopard is aiming for)
- fixing Explorer's IO bound nature
- opening up the incredible power of DWM (Vista's graphics engine) to allow 3rd party apps that can then easily do things like Expose, theming etc on the desktop
- allowing tags+metadata to be added to any file type
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Although I don't care for the Mac-like taskbar, the screenshots look fantastic. (The taskbar is changes with different themes.)
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081028-first-look-at-windows-7.html)
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So pretty! :-*
( I wonder why no one at MS has thought of incorporating a popup launcher like FARR/Launchy into the OS. :tellme: )
Waitasec, is that what the Run dialog is supposed to be? (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/hiding.gif)
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Imho zridlings screenshot above is ugly - Vista's start menu and taskbar, on the other hand, are simple and stylish (yes, that's f0dder praising something in Vista - the sky is falling).
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Oh come on f0dder, you've expressed a liking for their cursor set before this - still have a bump on my head to prove it.
[ I'll remember to use the <sarcasm> tags the next time I say something nice about the Vista taskbar and its clones. ]
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Ah yeah, the Vista cursor set is also nicer than previous versions - I've fallen in love with Entis (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=11282.msg90491#msg90491) cursors, though :)
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So pretty! :-*
( I wonder why no one at MS has thought of incorporating a popup launcher like FARR/Launchy into the OS. :tellme: )
Waitasec, is that what the Run dialog is supposed to be? (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/hiding.gif)
-nosh
The search field in the start menu functions as a file/program launcher in addition to finding content. It's not as robust as FARR or other dedicated launchers (for example, I don't think it can be trained), but it works quite well.
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Not as robust? Hell, I have had to stop using it due to little nicities included in it's search functionality. It's extremely quick and allows launching under admin rights simply by hitting CTRL+ENTER on the selected result. Very handy indeed.
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Not as robust? Hell, I have had to stop using it due to little nicities included in it's search functionality. It's extremely quick and allows launching under admin rights simply by hitting CTRL+ENTER on the selected result. Very handy indeed.
-Josh
Well... as noted, you can't set it up to default to a particular program to launch, for example. I do find it very handy and don't run any other launcher under Vista. Thanks for the CTRL-ENTER tip :Thmbsup:
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Jump lists. That there is the single nicest feature I've seen UI wise:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
{source: ars technica} (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081028-first-look-at-windows-7.html)
Contextual tools and links, wrapped in a nice API. This really has the potential to be a nice unique feature. OS X has it for a few apps like iTunes, but it is not standardised and ubiquitous as MS are aiming to do. Really lovely :-* It reminds me of Quicksilver in a good way.
I also welcome the user regaining full dominion over the (horrible) system tray, a welcome poke-in-the-eye to all the apps that fight over this piece of screen realestate (seems much better than the systray hiding mechanism of XP).
The other bits seem nice tweaks, they are playing catch-up to functionality elsewhere. I do think the window thumbnails are better than the kludgy flip3D.
So, er, reading between the lines, I'm sensing that overall performance is an issue for you, Superboyac?-Darwin
:D :D :D
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Note the single 'shut down' button. Redmond must have listened.
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Memory use of the Window manager has been cut 50% per window:
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20081029/windows-7-dwm-cuts-memory-consumption-by-50/
Seems to be using the GPU better than it did before (why was it so inefficient before I wonder, is it really some magic that could only come with DX10.1?).
And it seems some more love is being given to font management:
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20081030/improvements-to-fonts-in-windows-7/
Now, the crappy font handling in Windows is one of the main reasons I prefer OS X. Apple really sweated the details and for anyone who loves typography and book layout etc. Windows is uselessly primitive. What is a shame is that Microsoft have really helped the technical underpinnings of digital font technology (e.g. opentype), they just failed to implement it much in their OS. Anyway, it looks as if MS are slowly waking up from their slumber, and finally thinking about some of the smaller UI details. They still have to do *much* more, I'm still shocked that their major contribution (the wonderful opentype) is still not anywhere to be found in their OS. I can use contextual ligatures even in Leopard's notepad equivalent, but can't do so in MS's flagship word processor!!! I can but dream that Windows 8 will finally support something MS pushed in 1994...
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So pretty! :-*
( I wonder why no one at MS has thought of incorporating a popup launcher like FARR/Launchy into the OS. :tellme: )
Waitasec, is that what the Run dialog is supposed to be? (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/hiding.gif)
-nosh
Careful! If Microsoft ever does decide to include a popup launcher in Windows 7, the very first thing Steve Ballmer will do is accuse all the people who have already written one of stealing intellectual property and prior art from Microsoft.
That claim might even fly when you consider the astonishing amount of code Microsoft employees have written over the years. I'm sure if they dug deeply enough into their source repositories, they could find something close enough to convince a gullible judge and jury.
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Here it is! The document proving Mouser's FARR
infringes on code we wrote
back in 1542 !!!
Somebody call Steve...
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40hz: is that Ballmer reading the prior art document!? :)
One of my enduring interests and deepest wishes in an OS is full metadata support (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=14411.msg125231#msg125231). So I'm interested in the Windows indexer to see where they're heading. In windows 7 the changes seem incremental but very welcome:
http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/10/13/windows-desktop-search.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2008/10/23/follow-up-windows-desktop-search.aspx
Most of the discussion is still about speed and the compromises they're making to balance this. I'd rather they were trying to extend metadata models on Windows, but it is clear that the indexer is becoming a fundamental core part of the OS which is great!
On the UI side there is a *lot* of nice tweaking going on. If you can, like, get, like, over the, like, awesome, presentation style, like, of this channel9 video, the awesome contents, like, are worthwhile:
http://channel9.msdn.com/posts/Dan/Windows-7-Find-and-Organize-Part-1-The-User-Experience/
Awesome. Like.
Libraries are copies of the smart folders in OS X (metadata-based dynamic collations), but the UI in Windows 7 for "drilling down" is clearly better. As alluded to in the blogposts and clarified in the video, writing search queries has be GUIed in Windows 7 and this is brilliant for general users. These are great first steps forward for making the huge benefits of a metadata-based file interface accessible to general users.
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A very slick talk on the new UI features:
http://mschnlnine.vo.llnwd.net/d1/pdc08/WMV-HQ/PC24.wmv
Although he claims the prior art is Windows 1, anyone who has used the dock will be immediately familiar with the Win7 taskbar. However I can say that MS are finally "getting it". His talk is the cleanest description of why the Win95->Vista UI is such a mess (the example of the number of outlook icons is indicative of the larger problems he highlights), why OS X is currently better (the reduced clutter of redundant launch surfaces), and why Win7 will beat leopard. It's the first UI that, at least on paper, will beat Exposé+dock for window/application management IMO (though I wish they would add multiple-desktops). I can't wait!
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Thanks for the link, nontroppo. If Microsoft manages to pull this off, maybe we can all pretend Vista never happened. Point is, users don't want mere change, but improvement. And the 800-lb. gorilla in the room is legacy support, viz., "compatibility code." At some point, Microsoft has to cede it. I thought they'd do it with Vista, leaving XP for the rest of us. But it's big part of the reason Vista was so slow for new hardware (and to market).
When you do the same with the UI, though, it's painful. It's typical of Apple to say, "Take or leave it; here's the new way." But when Microsoft did the same with Office's ribbon, with no way to revert to classic toolbars, I was turned off. Same with the taskbar. I'll take functional over sexy every time.
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Indeed legacy support will still be the lead weight on MS with W7. I wish they would break completely. Offer a VM environment for all legacy software (MS-DOS - > Vista), but don't cripple your software on each release. Offer clean APIs for programmers at the core of your OS, not libraries on top of libraries on top of libraries. Not cruft going back to ms-dos still lying about. And I wish they'd rip out the horrid DRM system, and pointless activation systems.
I think in the UI, MS are cleverly using existing motifs from Windows, but removing the horrible mess we've lived with since Win95. I think functionality will be radically improved with the combined buttons, the fantastic jump lists, window peeking, contextual thumbnails, user-focussed systray. I'd personally get rid of the start button, and I still think that the unified menu bar is better than the window-locked bar (multi-monitor being the exception). But I can't think of anything that is a step back in Windows 7 UIwise (he says bombastically), and I'll be so bold to say it may offer the cleanest and most functional workspace of any OS to date (caveat being I ain't actually used it, reality may be different ;))
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I heard that under Win7 wallpaper could be changed with an RSS
Is there a sample of this?
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If Win7 is as good as this ActiveWin preview (http://activewin.com/reviews/previews/windows7/), then it will be pretty fantastic.
"It's safe to say I am overwhelmed, overjoyed and most of all excited about Windows 7", the author concludes.
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Cool! cloud data (flickr in this case) pulled into windows explorer transparently:
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20081119/windows-7-seek-and-you-shall-find/
And you can play Crysis without a graphics card (in slooooow-motion) :P:
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20081126/direct3d-warp10-to-enable-you-to-play-dx10-crysis-using-software-renderer-only-albeit-slowly/
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Way useful, that's for sure. Lots of people keep their photo collections backed up on Flickr instead of on their own drives. (According to the comments, though, Firefox and Apple have already done this.)
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Yes, Sherlock was Apple's interface introduced way back in OS 8.5 which allowed both local and cloud searching through one interface, it used SGML files to configure search providers easily (Mozilla later made Mycroft to share these search providers, and incidentally, I made a mycroft > Opera search provider database a while after).
This is the same broad idea as Windows 7 functionality (it uses OpenSearch, an XML replacement for the sherlock/mycroft style providers), but Windows 7 seems to be a much more robust implementation in terms of file-system handling. The cloud items pulled in through Win 7 will be treated like files, not like search results, thus allowing a more transparent UI (context menus, thumbnails etc.).
Leopard's spotlight allows network searched files to be included in the local mix, but not cloud files (Sherlock was sent to an Old peoples home with Leopard too).
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And you can play Crysis without a graphics card (in slooooow-motion) :P:
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20081126/direct3d-warp10-to-enable-you-to-play-dx10-crysis-using-software-renderer-only-albeit-slowly/-nontroppo
Hm, what's so new about this? The DirectX SDK has included a reference rasterizer (ie, software-only) for ages.
Cloud sucks.
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Hm, what's so new about this? The DirectX SDK has included a reference rasterizer (ie, software-only) for ages.
Really? OK, so one less point for 7. I was impressed that the software-only DirectX was faster than Intels integrated solution though...
Cloud sucks.
They are however great for dreaming in... :P
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The possibility of retrieving (and I hope uploading) data from the cloud is absolutely cool. I hope it's flexible enough for most companies to jump in, and we can retire superfluous apps for specific services.
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Well, the old reference rasterizer is typically <1fps iirc, so they've probably done some work. But it's still somewhat pointless for gamers, as soon as a software rendering path is taken, frame rates drop to unplayable. It's really mostly useful for developers as a tool to check if graphics glitches is a bug in their code, or flaky video card drivers.
As for faster than intels integrated solution, keep in mind that they compared a beast of a processor, and intel's GMA was (afaik) designed with relatively low power consumption in mind... a quadcore at 3GHz running maxed out isn't exactly low-power ;)
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I like going back to simple numbering over fancy/faux names and years. I find Ubuntu's numbers fine, but their naming scheme is truly dumb imo. But a ribbon touch calc? NOOOO!!
(see attachment in previous post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=15107.msg134442#msg134442))
-zridling
What the hell is that thing???? If that's a real picture of the new calculator I might have to reconsider my plan to buy and install Windows 7...
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Yes, the ribbon is not efficient in all contexts, and Microsoft should not force it onto simple apps.
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The latest Win7 Benchmarks (http://www4.osnews.com/story/20645/Windows_7_Build_6956_Does_Well_in_Benchmark) are fantastic news. Speed might likely be the single most important factor in getting users off of Vista sooner than later.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://ttp://www4.osnews.com/story/20645/Windows_7_Build_6956_Does_Well_in_Benchmark)
Cinebench was the one test where Win7 was slower than Vista.
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Add me to the Win 7 fan club! I just bought a new laptop for my brother with pretty decent specs - HP Pavilion with 2.2Ghz C2D, 4GB Ram, Intel 4500HD integrated graphics (I don't trust Nvidia cards!). Even on this, a fresh install of Vista x64 SP1 was not exactly mind blowing, and it failed to detect a lot of hardware (wireless network, camera etc).
I decided to play with the latest Win 7 build 6956. As part of the initial setup, it found my home network over wireless and configured it, and everything works! It feels a lot faster and polished than Vista and so far I have had no issues. The new Libraries feature is awesome and so is the superbar and Aero peek. Control panel is organized better, with more items. Its a lot of small touches that I can appreciate after using them, even after I read all the previews. Can't wait to try the beta in Jan.
Also worth noting - this is a 32-bit Win 7 build (can't use the full 4GB memory) yet it ran faster than 64-bit Vista.
In fact it works so much better than Vista that I almost wish I could give it like this to my brother instead of with Vista. But I know I can't in good faith do that :(
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Yes, the ribbon is not efficient in all contexts, and Microsoft should force it onto simple apps.
-zridling
Don't you mean shouldn't force it?
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Doh! Yes, let me edit that. Thanks!
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Add me to the Win 7 fan club! I just bought a new laptop for my brother with pretty decent specs - HP Pavilion with 2.2Ghz C2D, 4GB Ram, Intel 4500HD integrated graphics (I don't trust Nvidia cards!).-MrCrispy
Good for you for not trusting Nvidia. While ATI has opened up their driver code, Nvidia has locked theirs down, making it difficult to run a new Nvidia card on a Linux machine.
I really haven't read any bad reports on Win7 yet. By all accounts, they're busting their brains to make Vista what it should be (if you assume Win7 is an upgrade to Vista since they share the kernel), and it already preserves battery life better on laptops. I hope it's one of those versions that users can sit on for years like we have with XP. With Win7 running on an i7 chip, I can't imagine needing to upgrade for 4-5 years afterward! By the way, here's an updated calculator shot:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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Looks like the Win7 beta is going to be out very soon.
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/08/12/17/new-windows-7-beta-released-to-select-testers
I haven't received my invite yet (I hope to!), but I bet it'll be available from the 'usual sources' as well :)
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Don't screw us, MrCrispy, when you get it, share your impressions!! :Thmbsup:
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Win7 beta 1 (build 7000) has leaked! Obviously I can't put a link here but its spreading around the usual torrent sites etc. Paul Thurrott of Winsupersite has posted the official beta 1 screenshots (I'm guessing after the leak an NDA apparently does not apply)
http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/win7_beta_screens_01.asp
I expect Microsoft will make it publicly available as soon as they are back from the holidays and the hangover's gone :)
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Adam Kingsley-Hughes reports that the first Win7 beta is awesome (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3222), and should be ready to go by summertime. Woohoo!!
That taskbar, however, looks like a dead-on copy of KDE 4 (http://kde.org/screenshots/). No argument from me since you can make the one in KDE look anyway you want, as thin as you want, and you can dock it on any side of the desktop.
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Jason Perlow is not so enthusiatic:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=9360
I think he represents the "Don't mess" with my OS brigade[1]. Anything that is not really like XP is a regression. Ed Bott replied:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=630
Thugh I personally find Ed Bott a little too much apologetic sometimes, he raises valid points that most of Jason's issues a really just because he is refusing to adapt to universal search and other new paradigms that IMO are so clearly superior to the old hierarchical clicking. But if you were a grumpy old (wo)man with Vista, you'll still have plenty (or more?) to be tetchy at with Win 7...
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[1] Grumpy old (wo)men syndrome! ;)
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It's even funnier when you read the follow-up discussions ...
Why are people such stick in the muds.
Personally I don't like Vista and still prefer/use WinXP but that is for a number of reasons that irritate many people - not least UAC, the burying and scattering of options and truly appalling networking options (especially with multiple adapters which breaks networking completely).
Having said that Vista isn't all bad and it is more usable than many people give credit for.
Windows 7 looks like it is the first potentially exciting release of Windows since Windows 2000 - at least the developers are tying to implement changes based on usability, and at least there seem to be some changes this time.
I know underlying technologies change but one of the things I have found somewhat frustrating is that until Vista the user interface has not appreciably changed since Windows 95. While to many there is comforting familiarity it has seemed to me that each time there was a lost opportunity to change the way things work for the better.
I haven't played with the W7 beta yet but the new task bar looks like very useful development, the tray icons (and user control over what appears there) looks like a huge step forward and actually the 'start' menu with its built in "Find and Run Robot" looks like a big improvement.
I'm sure many people will bellyache (probably me too) over incompatibilities with XP software, stupid hardware demands and poor support for legacy hardware products but I do think it makes a change for people to be looking at an OS that looks like it is at least an attempt to move things on from the 1980s approach to Windows.
I just hope MS have learned a few lessons from the Vista debacle (they seemed to after the WinME fiasco producing Win2k and XP which have proved very popular). The priorities should be for lightness of touch and speed of use (not a resource hog that requires hi spec graphics and large amounts of memory just to get it to run properly), a reduction of flavours to a sensible Server, Pro and Home versions and proper support for hardware - giving manufacturers some incentive to produce new drivers for legacy hardware for Windows 7 - something they have failed to do with the current prohibitively expensive certification scenario.
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My favourite line(s) from Ed Bott's reply are these:
Yes, there’s a learning curve. And if you insist on using those techniques you learned back in the last millennium with software that was designed differently, you will be frustrated. But I believe that an open-minded XP user who actually takes a few minutes to learn how the new UI works will be more productive very quickly. The secret is breaking old habits and developing new ones.
This has certainly been my experience going from XP Pro (which I still run with the Classic theme) to Vista.
Windows 7 looks interesting, but hardly earth shattering. I still (grumpily) feel that it amounts to Sp-2 (or 3), rather than a major new OS. A lot of self-interest there, I suppose... having just upgraded to Vista Ultimate ;D
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[Darwin]: Windows 7 looks interesting, but hardly earth shattering.
And that's just it: it doesn't have to be. Correcting Vista's ugliness is the major goal, and as A. Kingsley-Hughes writes (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3236), speeding up everything is the first thing you notice. But he reminds people like me that if you didn't like activation, validation, and forced updates before, you really should move to another OS. The latest piracy news from China (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/business/worldbusiness/01soft.html) show that Microsoft is getting ready to ramp up anti-piracy measures in '09.
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And that's just it: it doesn't have to be. Correcting Vista's ugliness is the major goal, and as A. Kingsley-Hughes writes (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3236), speeding up everything is the first thing you notice.
-zridling
Heh, heh - goes directly to my lament about it being released as a new Windows version rather than as a Service Pack to Vista ;D Having said that, Vista is stable and very quick on my system (T5750 CPU - 2.0 Ghz and 4GB RAM with 512MB dedicated video card)...
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I see what you mean, there, Darwin. Going from Vista to Win7 won't be a big deal like XP-to-Vista was. But you have to figure that from now on Microsoft will likely issue only one SP before rolling out another major OS version, just to keep the revenue stream intact. Gates lamented not making XP-SP2 a new OS version on its own. They won't be sitting on Win7 long either before rolling out another version.
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I see what you mean, there, Darwin. Going from Vista to Win7 won't be a big deal like XP-to-Vista was. But you have to figure that from now on Microsoft will likely issue only one SP before rolling out another major OS version, just to keep the revenue stream intact. Gates lamented not making XP-SP2 a new OS version on its own. They won't be sitting on Win7 long either before rolling out another version.
-zridling
Drat! Actually, if they revamp their pricing scheme to mimic Apple's this won't be the end of the world, and would likely line their coffers like never before. I'd be pretty happy paying $150 every 18-36 months for a DVD with the full version of whatever the current version of Windows is (or to download a disc image) and a licence. I suspect that if they did this, their revenues would go UP (and pirating would be curtailed) because perception here is the name of the game. Paying $150 every 18 months for the latest OS works out to about $100 a year. XP Pro and Vista Ultimate don't cost that much! And yet... spread the pain out like this and people won't flinch. Mac users love upgrading the latest OS X point release and gladly pay to do so. Yet many of them, and all Windows personal users, balk at the idea of paying $200-300 in a lump payment to upgrade from one version of Windows to the next. I think if people were able to pay half that to buy a full version (ie the DVD contains everything and the licence allows them to do a "legal" clean install), without worrying about Home Basic vs. Premium vs. Ultimate, etc., they'd be more likely to do so and more likely to keep pace with development, rather than sticking with, say, Win2k for upwards of 10 years, missing two or three versions before finally upgrading...
OK, this is turning into my frequent "If only MS would follow Apple's pricing scheme" spiel, so I'll shut up now :o
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[Darwin]: Actually, if they revamp their pricing scheme to mimic Apple's this won't be the end of the world, and would likely line their coffers like never before.
They really, really should do that (copy Apple's pricing). Another thing they NEED to do is drop the Software Assurance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Software_Assurance) program for businesses. They no longer have the money to make what feels like lifetime payments to Microsoft when they're stuck using XP and Office 2003. OS X just crossed the 10% marketshare threshold this week. Not a big deal, you say? The old revenue paradigm of proprietary office suite dependent upon proprietary OS has lost its grip. As such, Software Assurance comes across as punitive in this economic climate.
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Hm, I've just played with a copy of Win 7 on a friends Macbook Pro (in VMWare). As the VMWare drivers aren't tuned, Aero was not working. My friend said he thought Win 7 was faster than Vista, though it is well known that Vista hates virtualisation.
Dropping memory down to 512MB, Win 7 is still nicely responsive. That is not the case doing the same with a Vista VM.
I do much prefer the taskbar to XP and Vista, having launch and task management unified is much more intuitive to me. As we had no aero, all the sexy features were not available (which cripples the task bar substantially IMO), and to be honest the overall experience was underwhelming, it really feels like Vista SP3 UI wise. Moving windows to the edge to resize them is nice. Though some have commented that the beta is stable, we constantly froze it using Java 6, and windows experience index would always fail to complete.
One thing I loved compared to Vista - I always put my utilities like process explorer in a directory "Accessories" in "Program Files". Vista made this amazingly irritating with UAC enabled. Win 7 handled it fine, bravo!
I'm sure I'm missing some of the smaller tweaks here and there (I think there are many of the poor UI design bits fixed), Win 7 was nice, but underwhelming. I think it *is* clearly better than Vista resource wise (which is not saying much IMHO).
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Thinking about it a bit, I think it is actually terrible that the biggest usability changes are locked into Aero. It means if Home Basic will not include Aero, substantial functionality will be missing for all those users. Windows has long been crippled by poor window management, and treating it as a "luxury" extra is just wrong IMO. Again, Apple was using transparency, scaling live thumbnails, using visually responsive features for years.
Even with no significant hardware acceleration, this all works elegantly on old Apple laptops. Exposé, desktop peeking, live thumbnails are treated as an essential part of the OS interface as they should be. Honestly, my productivity is significantly higher with robust window/app management over and above the crude alt+tab.
The idea of crippling your OS just to pump revenue is despicable (let alone confusing for end users, I'm also 100% with Darwin). Note, I have no problem with "value-added" addons (premium themes, software bundles for "ultimate"), but to break your core UI experiences is just 100 shades of WRONG! >:( :down: :down: :down:
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Well, let’s hope that the following prediction from Bill Pytlovany comes true:
My real prediction is the Microsoft will actually price Windows 7 so that people might actually buy it instead of trying to get a copy from their friend... Expect fewer versions of Windows 7 to be available to ease the confusion.
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PS couldn't get the url to work!
BTW - nontroppo, you're spot on with your comments about MS making so much of Vista/Win7's usability dependent on Aero and up to date hardware. As I've noted before, just about everything that Apple has tossed into OS X 10.4.11 works on my 8 year old iBook... I'd be stuck with Vista Home Basic on my XP and Win2k machines (5 years old and 9 years old respectively). I can, and have, used third party apps to get most of the functionality that I care about onto those machines/into those OS's, and hope that people trying to run Vista/Win7 on older hardware will be able to as well, but why should they have to?!
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Well, as far as i can see from screenshots, the Win 7 installer offers the same 4 "versions" as Vista, so we will have the same stupid user-unfriendly obnoxious choice.
PPS, what URL? ;)
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Well, as far as i can see from screenshots, the Win 7 installer offers the same 4 "versions" as Vista, so we will have the same stupid user-unfriendly obnoxious choice.
PPS, what URL? ;)
-nontroppo
Why the one missing from my previous post, of course! ;D
I had tried to link to the Bill Pytlovany blog post directly but no matter what I tried it failed to lead to anything other than an error page...
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CNET's Renai LeMay confuses me (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10134184-92.html). She starts with this stunning theme sentence:
Windows 7 could be one of Microsoft's greatest operating systems, if it fulfills the promise shown by the unofficial beta version (build 7000) we have been testing for the past couple of days.
only to end with this qualification:
...Microsoft has spent a lot of effort with Windows 7 on delivering a solid operating system that won't "wow" anyone....
But then goes on to say:
I want to stress that we didn't test the Windows 7 beta exhaustively....
Are Apple devs the worst ever?
Windows 7 didn't thrash the hard disk or ever feel unresponsive, except when we were installing Apple's iTunes, a notorious pain on Windows systems.
_______________________
Still, all reports on Win7 continue to be positive, and that's great news. Now if Microsoft can only not muck this up between now and the official release. ;D
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The Win 7 public beta will be out sometime between tonight and tomorrow and next 2 days.
One of the mistakes Microsoft made with Vista was allowing OEM's (and Intel shares a very large part of this blame) to label even their crappy low end configs with slow cpu's, low Ram and integrated graphics as Vista-ready, which led to a lot of grief. Home Premium should be the bare minimum.
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One of the mistakes Microsoft made with Vista was allowing OEM's (and Intel shares a very large part of this blame) to label even their crappy low end configs with slow cpu's, low Ram and integrated graphics as Vista-ready, which led to a lot of grief. Home Premium should be the bare minimum.
-MrCrispy
Well, as other OS vendors have been doing, and now MS themselves are seeming to do with Win 7, it *is* possible to make a revised OS without sinking low-end machines in the first place. I agree that Microsoft's inability to optimise their OS until SP2 (Windows 7) *was* compounded by PC vendors desperate for sales pushing hardware that Microsoft was incapable of optimising for in the 5 years Vista took to bake, but you can hardly blame them.
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According to Windows Secrets the new beta is set to expire around 1st August encouraging speculation that Windows 7 will be released this year. Given that MS have extended the distribution of OEM WinXP until the 30th May it seems that even MS have given up and finally admitted that Vista has been a bad experience for everyone ;)
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Given that MS have extended the distribution of OEM WinXP until the 30th May it seems that even MS have given up and finally admitted that Vista has been a bad experience for everyone ;)-Carol Haynes
Not on my laptop :)
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My desktop has enjoyed Vista.
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It was meant to be a tongue in cheek comment but it does say something about MS that they are aiming to get Windows 7 out in record time and extending XP SALES to the point that there could be an almost seemless transition for most users avoiding Vista completely.
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Carol: true, and Vista certainly isn't perfect. But the experience on my laptop hasn't been nearly as bad as some people feel it is... It doesn't feel sluggish and UAC doesn't annoy me. I don't like the DRM shit (even if it isn't affecting me), I'd love lower resource consumption (even if the system DOES feel snappy), and I haven't had problems with sound latency...
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I would not be so sure about Win 7 being released by mid-2009, even though I'd love that. Its possible we'll have a RC build after the beta expires and that Win 7 will be launched around Christmas.
Ironically, that would be around the time we'll see price cuts on Core i7 and people upgrading to a much more powerful system, only to run an OS that's been optimized to run faster than XP :)
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I would not be so sure about Win 7 being released by mid-2009....-MrCrispy
Anyone want to take bets on this? I say it will be released on June 1st, July 1st at the very latest.
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Here's a dumb question: What's really the problem with Vista? I don't quite understand.
I haven't been following all of this. I've used vista occasionally on my parents' computer and it was fine, I thought. So what's the problem from a practical, daily level? Does it crash a lot? Do programs not work? I hear about some HD hardware disabling or incompatibility, a lot of security confirmations. Is it bloated? I don't quite get it.
If anyone can enlighten me from a less techie (layman) standpoint, I'd appreciate. I believe it, I just don't understand it.
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If anyone can enlighten me from a less techie (layman) standpoint, I'd appreciate. I believe it, I just don't understand it.
-superboyac
I neither believe nore understand it...
When I bought my current computer in August 2008 it was with every intention of downgrading it to XP or 2k (if I couldn'tt get an XP disc). I set up Vista to burn the recovery discs before downgrading and I'm still running it. I like Vista and recently upgraded from 32 bit Home Premium to 64 bit Ultimate. It's as stable (if not more?) as XP or 2k and is snappier. Of course, XP or 2k could well be "snappier" on my setup but I'm not motivated to try. The ONLY thing that annoys me is that a very expensive piece of software that I use for work will not run under Vista (though a Vista compatible version is available... for a price), but I've got several notebooks all running XP Pro and/or 2k, and they're all networked together, so this is hardly a dealbreaker...
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Darwin: the DRM is main degradation of certain outputs if "protected content" is playing, so you're probably not going to experience it unless you're playing back HD-DVD or BluRay media. It's frightening that the stuff is there, though. And it has real-life affected some people (certain types of digital outputs don't have copy protection, and are thus disabled when the PMP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_Media_Path) is active). Then there's the insane-o RSA/AES encrypted driver communication when dealing with the DRM stuff, etc. It might not bite you, but it's there and it bites some people.
Also, several people (including scancode) has experienced latency problems on sound under Vista. This is not something regular users will experience, but low latency is crucial if you're doing sound production.
Then there's the weirdo "shadow folders" that mouser talks about in a thread around here, which is a bad idea.
Personally I've not been bitten by any of these things, and Vista64 runs pretty great on my laptop (I'm tempted to give XP64 a go on it too, and see if there's any difference). But there are issues and they're real... so I'm postponing workstation ugprade until Win7 (which will probably have the same issues, but at least seems to be a bit less fatty :)
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Ah... thanks for that, f0dder. I'd forgotten about the DRM thing, though I was following it in the period building toward Vista's release. I'm just hoping that Windows 7 will be a reasonably priced (ie under $200 for Ultimate) upgrade. I'm very happy with Vista, but if Win7 is all that people are saying it will be, I will simply have to have it, won't I?!
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I'm very happy with Vista, but if Win7 is all that people are saying it will be, I will simply have to have it, won't I?!
-Darwin
If Win7 is what I hope it is, I'll definitely throw it on my workstation :)
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The DRM in Vista (specifically Guttmans infamous FUD) has been debunked. There is DRM in the driver stack which is only invoked if you play protected content, otherwise there is NO performance penalty. Whats more, ANY OS would have to include the exact same DRM if they want to get the licenses to provide playback for HD media like Bluray. Why do you think Apple STILL doesn't support that?
Vista was (is) a fine OS after SP1, but it did require modern hardware and had a lot of room for optimization. Some of those, such as Aero not using memory/window (and thus scaling much better), loading services on demand, a more componentized kernel+services layer (what used to be called MinWin) are under the hood innovations that make it leaner and meaner.
Then there are user improvements such as the Superbar, the less intrusive UAC, gestures, better layed out options, and some big features such as Homegroup and Libraries. These improve usability.
Put them together, add in the same driver model as Vista so there are no incompatibilities on launch, and you have a very compelling product. Vista was much maligned, for good reason, but since Sp1 its been very stable. Win 7 is better :)
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Mr Crispy: I've seen a lot of attacks on Peter Gutmann coming from the usual suspects (George Ou and Ed Bott from ZDNet (http://www.cypherpunks.to/~peter/zdnet.html) are examples which Peter responded to), but have not seen what I'd consider a clear debunking of the overall position. The DRM issue is still "real", and we can't run with/without for independent analysis. Much of what Gutmann predicted was spot on (driver fiasco, huge additional development burden on graphics card makers, clear fractures in its security well after release). The revocation system by itself is reason enough to hate Vista's DRM, that hasn't just vanished; it is just not utilised at the moment. Specific technical points in Gutmann's extensive piece were wrong, Gutmann was writing about the whole system in a comprehensive way (make sure you read his PDF, not the older original article) and surely can't have got every point right. But FUD it was not, it was a detailed analysis by an independent observer.
Microsoft went way above what was required of them with the DRM mechanism they introduced (tilt bits being one example). The quotes that Gutmann uses from its own technical documentation of it are clear they were not doing the "minimum" of what was needed, but were zealous in implementation.
"It is recommended that a graphics manufacturer go beyond
the strict letter of the specification and provide additional
content-protection features, because this demonstrates their
strong intent to protect premium content"
That is ideological, not technical documentation!
That DRM mechanism is still in Windows 7 AFAIK. To be honest, if it only steals 0.1% CPU cycles is irrelevant. I'm deeply unhappy with the core display systems having revocation mechanisms built-in at its core (even if the purple-pill utility showed what a fiasco Vista signed drivers were and how MS have been unable to use it, as Peter predicted).
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nontroppo, you may be right, I haven't done a detailed analysis. But from what I understand, the requirements to block protected content are dictated by the MPAA etc and are required to get a license. This is why Vista has a PVP (protected video path) to enforce stuff like HDCP, which is what all the DRM implementation is about. Now it may be that its overzealous, and that part you quote is certainly not a good sign. But the fact remains that unless you play any protected content, none of these code paths will be invoked.
This is not just the OS though. Graphics cards, motherboard drivers all have this these days. In fact one of the problems with Vista is it doesn't support a protected audio path, which is a problem for HTPC because you can't get a hidef audio signal over HDMI from your pc to audio gear. Windows 7 will hopefully fix that.
All these technologies are very much anti-consumer, its a fact of life unless we have digital copyright reform. I feel its a bit unfair to single out Microsoft simply for being the first to support these in their OS.
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Yes, I agree MS had little choice but to implement some DRM if it wanted to be first to the HD market. And yet, just as with Apple's iTune's DRM, they were still hoping to benefit from lock-in. MS rushed to this market way before they needed to, going well beyond minimum specification (tilt bits being the clear example). I think they want to capture the HD market by being the "favoured" channel (i.e. most zealous!), and thus as Apple did with music, lock the market into its revenue stream. So far they've just damaged their own platform and users with little to show for it. I think once HD content explodes , they want to be the dominant platform to view it, and that is when the money comes in. I think they hope their zealous implementation will not be implementable by others and thus further extend their dominance.
So they they may not be entirely to blame, but who exactly was MS competing against to "force them against the wall" (the PS3)? They could have taken Apple's stance on the PVP, which is wait and see, and implement the minimum necessary only when necessary. They could have under-engineered, knowing that no one else was going to out-zealot them. They rightly could have been less stringent with driver policing which caused such difficulties for many vendors on switching to Vista which directly hurt Vista and its users.
Peter Gutmann's fundamental point is that the PC is driven, and indeed was born, from an open platform. MS tried with palladium, and its step-child WVCP, to close up an impossible to close platform. This was doomed to failure, as Gutmann spends most of his time showing (http://www.cypherpunks.to/~peter/vista.pdf).
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I also want to ask, but I've never seen a clear explanation of how the protected path handles non-protected content. How does all of this switch on/off? If you see Gutmann's slides (taken from the Vista technical documentation), the image and audio paths seem so convoluted (this is apparently simplified):
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Is there a completely separate bus architecture, or does it pass through the same path just with no secondary checking?
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This is a great list of Win 7 tips and tweaks:
http://blogs.msdn.com/tims/archive/2009/01/12/the-bumper-list-of-windows-7-secrets.aspx
and for completeness from the other thread (thanks majorspacecase), a keyboard shortcut list:
http://www.blogsdna.com/2023/windows-7-keyboard-shortcuts-list.htm
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Wow, great link (http://blogs.msdn.com/tims/archive/2009/01/12/the-bumper-list-of-windows-7-secrets.aspx), nontroppo! Thanks for sharing.
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Yeah, thanks for the linkt, nontroppo - there were a few nice things there.
Btw, I really love the new taskbar. It might be *cough* inspired *cough* by OS X (although I think the jumplists and other stuff goes beyond that?), but I don't really care. The important thing is that it's a good step forward, and that it finally feels right to dock the bar to the edge of the screen rather than the bottom.
Unfortunately, I haven't found a virtual-cd application that works with Win7 yet. MagicDisc (http://www.magiciso.com/tutorials/miso-magicdisc-overview.htm) installs, but hangs when you try accessing the virtual CD (fortunately only hangs the app that tries accessing, but that's bad enough if you use explorer for file managing). Daemon-Tools doesn't even install, but at least you get a warning that it's incompatible. This sucks a bit since I install most of my software from ISO images - the original discs are in safe storage.
edit: obviously virtual-cd stuff is not needed in vmware, since that has the capability built-in. But I've done an install to real hardware, on my testbox (core2duo [email protected], 2x1024meg DDR2-800 ram, old and not superfast 160gig maxtor SATA drive). The install took 27 minutes from initial boot until the desktop was ready, the system seems to run great (although I have to install and test stuff like Visual Studio :)), and the Experience Index gives the following stats:
Processor: 5,8
Memory: 5,5
Graphics: 4,0
Gaming gr: 3,4
Harddisk: 5,2
Yeah, onboard intel IGM graphics - but Aero feels very smooth on it.
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f0dder try Virtual CloneDrive (http://www.slysoft.com/en/virtual-clonedrive.html), freeware from Slysoft and I read in a Windows 7 First Impressions blog post that someone used this.
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Thanks for the tip, justice! I managed to get VS2008 installed though - the ISO is on my linux fileserver, so I mounted that through a loop device and exported it under /tmp , and fortunately the VS2008 setup can handle UNC paths (and doesn't require being installed from a CD/DVD media).
But the slysoft app could come in handy for other apps :)
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...
Btw, I really love the new taskbar. It might be *cough* inspired *cough* by OS X (although I think the jumplists and other stuff goes beyond that?), but I don't really care. The important thing is that it's a good step forward, and that it finally feels right to dock the bar to the edge of the screen rather than the bottom.
...-f0dder
I plan to dock on the side as well, left for me. I already dock a "shortcuts" folder to the left side and am looking forward to being able to combine both menus into one.
I was thinking, I think Microsoft should take the thumbnail view one step farther: instead of using the program icons as the taskbar buttons, just use the thumbnails. Personally, I set my taskbar to auto hide, and I make it big (3 rows tall). I think it would be very cool to see all my running apps along the bottom of the screen. I'll make a mock-up...
From this...
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
To something like this...
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Icons too...
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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I was thinking, I think Microsoft should take the thumbnail view one step farther: instead of using the program icons as the taskbar buttons, just use the thumbnails. Personally, I set my taskbar to auto hide, and I make it big (3 rows tall). I think it would be very cool to see all my running apps along the bottom of the screen. I'll make a mock-up...
-Hirudin
That wouldn't work because there may be many thumbnails to one application taskbar button. For example open a word processor and then open 5 documents and you still have the WP icon on the bar but 5 thumbnails.
The other problem would be that the thumbnails wouldn't necessarily be distinctive enough - you would still have to hover to find out what they are.
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Hm, interesting idea wrt. thumbnails-for-buttons, but I think it would get messy quickly. It could be relatively difficult to distinguish between running apps, unless you have huge previews. I certainly wouldn't like it as a default - but could be an interesting option.
OK, the slysoft VirtualCD app works like a charm :Thmbsup:
So, next thing: how do I manually add things to "run at startup"? The usual procedure of opening the "StartUp" folder from the start menu and creating shortcuts doesn't work - Win7 won't let me add shortcuts there.
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Yeah, making them a little bigger might be good. If there's more than one window open, just have more than one thumbnail on the taskbar. I was thinking that the program icon could be superimposed on top of the thumbnail, kind of best of both worlds.
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Personally I prefer the cleaner look of Win 7 as it is. I know you can set the task bar to hide but I don't particularly like to do that and something like you suggest would take up too much screen real estate. I can't see what you really gain by having thumbnails large enough to distinguish.
The other point is that applications are pinned to the task bar for ease of access - if only thumbnails get pinned you would have to find each app in the Programmes menu which partially defeats the objective of the redesign.
MS seem to have taken the idea of QuickLaunch one step further - and if you think of the task bar as being an amalgamtion of a taskbar and quick launch that is the underlying phiolosophy behind it.
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I'm somewhat impressed by how much faster and better organized Win7 is than Vista. And the interface is actually quite nice (except I hate that baby blue default color scheme ;D).
So...does it look like Microsoft finally has a viable XP replacement here, or is it just me?
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So far I've been very impressed with Windows 7. It's really much lighter (it just uses 6GB of disk space and ran fine with a mere 512 MB), and for being a beta it seems very stable, the only thing worth reporting I found is Windows Defender being deactivated at random (mostly when I launch an Internet browser). The UAC is less annoying (I hope the new approach does not mean worse system security) than before, but it could be better (you don't have permission to view certain folders, you need to go through it whenever you want to check Defender's history), and generally most annoyances and idiosyncrasies of Vista disappeared or turned out for the better. It still needs lots of polish here and there (lacks consistence between different parts of the system), but it's shaping to be a really great OS. And FARR works! :)
Now, if I could find which folder is the new "My Documents" (Libraries or Users\<my name>), and how to move my entire profile (or at least the personal folders) all at once, instead of one by one...
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It still needs lots of polish here and there (lacks consistence between different parts of the system), but it's shaping to be a really great OS. And FARR works! :)
-Lashiec
My impression too.
As long as Microsoft doesn't go insane with pricing, I strongly suspect that me and my FOSS cronies will be kissing The Year of the Linux Desktop good-bye one more time! ;) ;D
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It still needs lots of polish here and there (lacks consistence between different parts of the system), but it's shaping to be a really great OS. And FARR works! :)
-Lashiec
As long as Microsoft doesn't go insane with pricing, I strongly suspect that me and my FOSS cronies will be kissing The Year of the Linux Desktop good-bye one more time! ;) ;D
-40hz
shhhh, Zaine might murder you for such a statement.
But seriously, from what I've seen and played around with, Win7 is proving to be a great OS and one I am very much looking forward to acquiring. We shall see how it plays out from here.
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All I want for Christmas is an affordable upgrade from Vista Ultimate 64-bit to Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit :)
I've been playing around with the VPC version and I like it. Of course, I still see it as Vista SP-2 at the moment... Vista SP-1 is very stable on my hardware and I like it a lot. I think that the whole Win 7 name is panic on MS' part in the sense that Vista is so maligned that they need to distance themselves from the name. That's why SP-2 (or perhaps it's more equivalent to SP-3?) is being re=badged... Kind of like this is the Mojave experiement on a grand scale? Of course, I am not generally in a position to appreciate the subtleties between the code bases for versions of Windows AND in the instance I've barely dipped my toe in the Win 7 waters, so perhaps there is enough in Win 7 to justify a name change and new full release?
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Darwin: afaik, Win7 is mostly user-mode enhancements, not really much new stuff happening kernel-side (although the window manager got an overhaul and now makes better use of video card memory?). Releasing it as a new OS is probably a bit of a stretch, but it seems like more than just a service pack to me.
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Darwin: afaik, Win7 is mostly user-mode enhancements, not really much new stuff happening kernel-side (although the window manager got an overhaul and now makes better use of video card memory?). Releasing it as a new OS is probably a bit of a stretch, but it seems like more than just a service pack to me.
-f0dder
Gotcha :Thmbsup: So... not quite a new OS but more than SP-2, eh? More like Win98 -> Win98SE, then (or, perhaps more like Win98SE to Win ME :o)? I wasn't affected and do not remember, what was the upgrade policy going from Win98 to Win98SE?
I'm in a painting frenzy this week (family is away so freshening the house up in their absence), but I hope to do a real world install of Win 7 soon and will thus be able to evaluate for myself :)
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Well, there a few significant kernel changes in Windows 7 -
- its now scalable to upto 256 cores
- it has the new 'Min-Win' kernel, which is refactored and componentized.
http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Mark-Russinovich-Inside-Windows-7/
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I reported elsewhere that there seems to be a problem installing Win7 (32 bit and 64 bit) on some systems (you get constant reboots when it is getting ready for first use). This arose with some nForce motherboard with integrated graphics combos.
I discovered that swapping the graphics card allowed you to install and then once installed you could change the drivers for the most recent Vista drivers (at least this worked for nForce 630/GeForce 7 combined motherboards).
Someone has now suggested a simpler solution (esp. if you don't have a spare graphics card). Apparently if you are plagued with this problem and using a LCD monitor with DVI or HDMI connection then swaping to the D-Sub connector for installation (ie. VGA analogue signal) allows Win 7 to install, you can then find suitable Vista drivers and move to your preferred interface.
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Well, there a few significant kernel changes in Windows 7 -
- its now scalable to upto 256 cores
- it has the new 'Min-Win' kernel, which is refactored and componentized.
http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Mark-Russinovich-Inside-Windows-7/-MrCrispy
That was a pretty cool video - there's gone a lot more work into Win7 than I thought. Definitely worth giving i the "Windows 7" name and not just a service pack (most users won't realize those things, though, so no wonder people say "it should just have been a SP").
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No matter how much good press Win7 gets, as Carol warns, I wouldn't go near it until all drivers are ready to go for my existing hardware. I'm tired of [not] learning that lesson.
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No matter how much good press Win7 gets, as Carol warns, I wouldn't go near it until all drivers are ready to go for my existing hardware. I'm tired of [not] learning that lesson.
-zridling
Basically, Vista drivers should work fine on Win7 - they haven't touched the driver architecture. In reality, both DaemonTools (http://forum.daemon-tools.cc) and MagicISO (http://www.magiciso.com/tutorials/miso-magicdisc-overview.htm) break, though... but fortunately, (free) SlySoft Virtual CloneDrive (http://www.slysoft.com/en/virtual-clonedrive.html) works as a charm. I'm considering whether to drop MagicISO on my workstation and go for VCD instead.
Anyway, it's a bad idea to install a Beta (or even RC) operating system as your main OS. You should test with virtual machines or dedicated test-machine... I'm probably going to install it as a dual-boot option on my laptop, though, since we're now outside of exam periods @ study, and I have all the important stuff on the laptop under subversion control :)
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One of the virtues of trying out a new OS is you get to do a clean install, and discover new replacements for old standby's, sometimes out of necessity.
e.g. when I switched to Win 7 I ditched Roboform, and switched to lastpass.com.
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Really nice summary of the new Win 7 taskbar from the perspective of the conceptual differences of applications <-> windows between Windows and OS X:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/dock-and-windows-7-taskbar.ars
And a similar kludgey attempt by Gizmodo:
http://i.gizmodo.com/5131933/giz-explains-why-the-windows-7-taskbar-beats-mac-os-xs-dock?skyline=true&s=x
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I like it, too. Isn't this what we all hoped Vista would have been two years ago? Imagine living in that world. But this is what Microsoft has always done. They build something, and then they make it better. But since XP had outlived itself, the pain caused by Vista was acute, since most businesses didn't adopt it.
A nice ancillary benefit? Since netbook hardware is quickly growing in power, Win7 should run fine on them.
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InfoWorld have done another set of benchmarks, showing that Vista and Windows 7 are birds-of-a-feather, closely identical in CPU intensive workloads, and are still significantly less efficient than XP:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/09/01/22/03TC-windows-multicore_1.html
It should come as no surprise that Windows 7 performs very much like its predecessor. In fact, during extensive multiprocess benchmark testing, Windows 7 essentially mirrored Vista in almost every scenario. Database tasks? Roughly 118 percent slower than XP on dual-core (Vista was 92 percent slower) and 19 percent slower than XP on quad-core (identical to Vista). Workflow? A respectable 38 percent slower than XP on dual-core (Vista was 98 percent slower) and 59 percent slower on quad-core (Vista was 66 percent slower).
His point is that on dual and quad-core systems, XP is still causing much less CPU activity to do the same operations, but it fails to scale as well, and that by 16-core systems, Windows 7 should finally overtake XP for comutation efficiency in the kinds of tests he used. Whatever kernel changes MS made to Win7, they are still not enough to negate the simpler code paths of XP unless you have many cores. That still also suggests XP will remain speed king on current and low-end newer hardware for a few years to come.
Caveats: will RTM Win7 be significantly faster than the beta?
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Heh, from that article (and damn I hate sites that use CSS to hide selection color):
(sorry, Windows 2000, you're 32-bit only)
- that's wrong :). It doesn't run on x86-64, though...
Btw, I find it relatively lame that the article keeps mentioning DRM for tasks that have nothing to do with (and aren't influenced by) DRM. Yes, there's nasty DRM in Vista and it's real enough and does have real-life effects. But please, don't use it as a catch-all when it's not in effect (except, perhaps, for the WMP test).
I wonder what exactly makes Vista and Win7 slower in his tests (does he use clean OS installs, or multiple OS installs on a single disk, meaning OS #2 has a "closer-to-disk-end-slowness" disadvantage - et cetera) ... and how other kinds of benchmarks would fare.
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Is it true you can dock the taskbar on the side of the screen like KDE (http://kde.org/) allows?
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Is it true you can dock the taskbar on the side of the screen like KDE (http://kde.org/) allows?
-zridling
You've always been able to do that afaik, but with Win7 it finally *feels right* :)
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Is it true you can dock the taskbar on the side of the screen like KDE (http://kde.org/) allows?
-zridling
Yep - just unlock it and drag it to the edge you want. It looks very nice too ;)
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I think he mentions DRM because his test is a parallel test, the media test runs at the same time as his other tests (testing mutlithreading workload), and I think he thinks it therefore makes a difference. As I asked earlier, I don't know what happens to the codepath with no protected content, but looking at the diagrams, the DRM architecture is all still there, just that the output is not disabled/enabled?
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Btw, I really love the new taskbar. It might be *cough* inspired *cough* by OS X (although I think the jumplists and other stuff goes beyond that?)
-f0dder
OS X had "Jump lists" since inception, and apps like iTunes, Finder, Terminal etc have customised contextual lists that are very useful even when the window is closed. But the problem is that they don't populate when the *App* is closed. They work well when opened, but some of the advantage is lost on exit. OS X icons still seem richer in functionality terms (animations and status updates are very prevalent among apps), but I think we just need to wait for developers to implement the richer status possibilities now available in 7.
The main differences between dock and taskbar are perfectly summarised by that Ars Technica article I linked to above.
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[Post edited, my bad]
Take something like a file manager, how many Total Commander, DOpus or Xplorer² users are going to dump their utility of choice coz Windows Explorer got OMG so damn good with Windows 7!! Xplorer² or XYPlorer for instance are both the product of individual developers. I cannot fathom why MS with all the talent and resources at its disposal hasn't come with anything really close to these apps after so many years in the business. File managers aren't exactly specialized applications for an OS either.
And sorry about being a wet blanket but jump lists seems like a cute little system utility that one hears about in a Lifehacker post and forgets a week later. *Nosh refuses to sing the Windows 7 anthem*
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Scott Finnie ain't singing the Windows 7 anthem either:
http://blog.scotsnewsletter.com/2009/01/18/windows-7-beta-1-im-not-impressed/
He doesn't see the performance boost he saw with Win 7 alpha, suggesting this is a classic cycle where the MS OS gets slower as it marches to RTM... And homegroup can be less than ideal to setup. Why can't Windows 7 interoperate, it can't play with any Macs on the network, yet Leopard can see both Macs and PCs. Bonjour is open-source and wouldn't kill MS to extend its interoperability.
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God I hope that Windows 7 doesn't derail a Vista Sp-2 release (or an Sp-3 release for that matter...). Not that I'm complaining about Sp-1, mind you. I love it, but I'd hate to see the product dropped completely after only a couple of years.
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WRT to installation issues on mobos with integrated graphics I have posted a summary solution at:
http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7itproinstall/thread/2664066a-242b-43ad-ad97-1a84fae53295/#page:4
(see 4th post on that page)
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I still think it would go a long ways toward customer relations and good PR to give all registered Vista users a free or deeply discounted price on the full Win7 version. It won't happen, but that my half cent.
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Free would be nice... deeply discounted reasonable... I still half wonder if Windows 7 beta isn't a variant of the Mojave experiement on a grand scale. Whatever their longterm plans, this is a sharp marketing move. I don't remember so many people beta testing a new windows release in the past and they've managed to generate a heck of a lot of interest in it. Caveat: they'd better deliver this time, because there was a lot of excitement about Vista (without, to my mind, the extensive beta testing base) that turned into excrement being heaped on it ;D
The blog nontroppo linked to yesterday is a good read about this:
Scott Finnie ain't singing the Windows 7 anthem either:
http://blog.scotsnewsletter.com/2009/01/18/windows-7-beta-1-im-not-impressed/
He doesn't see the performance boost he saw with Win 7 alpha, suggesting this is a classic cycle where the MS OS gets slower as it marches to RTM... And homegroup can be less than ideal to setup. Why can't Windows 7 interoperate, it can't play with any Macs on the network, yet Leopard can see both Macs and PCs. Bonjour is open-source and wouldn't kill MS to extend its interoperability.
-nontroppo
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Finnie makes some good points. He made the jump to Mac several years ago pre-Vista. I think [Windows] users will welcome 7, but what will it offer the enterprise customer? If businesses don't jump on it -- and face it, they don't have the money to upgrade hardware or licenses these days -- then Microsoft will need a Plan B business model. As Finnie notes, users are not willing to pay for single-platform data lockdown in the age of the cloud. The OS takes a backseat to the app.
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Don't really know if this is on-topic or not, but Ubuntu 8.04-2 installs and peacefully coexists with Windows 7.
The Grub configuration script (bless it's pointy little head) identifies Win7's loader just fine and installs to the MBR without incident.
(I'm composing this in Ubu as we speak. :))
Hope this continues when the final MS code gets released.
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Finnie makes some good points. He made the jump to Mac several years ago pre-Vista. I think [Windows] users will welcome 7, but what will it offer the enterprise customer? If businesses don't jump on it -- and face it, they don't have the money to upgrade hardware or licenses these days -- then Microsoft will need a Plan B business model. As Finnie notes, users are not willing to pay for single-platform data lockdown in the age of the cloud. The OS takes a backseat to the app.-zridling
It's probably going to matter a lot more to the enterprise than desktop user, actually - there's been a lot of tweaking and serious code restructuring going on in the kernel to reduce scalability bottlenecks... check the Russinovich (http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Mark-Russinovich-Inside-Windows-7/) video on the topic.
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I'm still struggling with how to get this on my box. Right now I'm thinking the old-school way we used to install Win98, only I'll be doing the copying from a Linux...
Right now, I have downloaded everything on my computer at work. I've made a 'Slim' distro with vLite and have the files packed into an ISO, which is mounted as a drive so I have access to the files.
1-Copy all files from the mounted ISO to a USB stick.
2-At home, copy those files to a free NT partitioned disk, in a folder labeled "Win7".
3-Boot to a DOS prompt via floppy.
4-Run "C:\win7\setup.exe"
Think it'll work? :tellme:
The only thing I'm wondering is if the DOS prompt will be able to run the setup program, considering the 16 vs. 32 bit barrier.
Oh well, here goes nothing...
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You used to be able to do that previously, but I haven't tried since the win2k days - so dunno if they dropped the capability.
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With XP, you copy the 'i386' folder and run 'winnt.exe' from there, because "setup.exe cannot be run in DOS mode (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/278104)".
I expect I will find a similar trap waiting for me with Win7 because there is no winnt.exe to fall back to.
The Win7 installer apparently can run from an already-running XP or Vista (doesn't need it's own boot environment) so maybe I can run setup.exe from Wine?
@40hz:
The Grub configuration script (bless it's pointy little head) identifies Win7's loader just fine and installs to the MBR without incident.
Does that mean a generic
title Windows 7
rootnoverify (hd1,0)
chainloader +1
entry in Grub does the trick?
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AFAIK all newer Windows setups can run from any earlier version of Windows - most will just allow a fresh install but where an upgrade is possible it will be the default mode of operation and you need to specifically choose clean install and the destination if you don't want an upgrade.
Is there a reason you can't run it direct from a bootable DVD?
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There will be no upgrade path from XP to Win7 (http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2009/01/windows_7_a_cla.html), says Microsoft. Must do a clean install.
Makes sense.
_______________
@40hz - Good to know Ubuntu accommodates Win7.
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True ... but I bet if you put your DVD in with Windows XP running it will start the installer.
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@Carol: No DVD reader at home and no DVD burner at work.
I do have a 4 gig USB stick, but no capability to boot it via BIOS on my box at home, hence my troubles.
@zridling: Carol is right, when I mount the Win7 ISO, it pops up the installer. Apparently, while you can't upgrade to Win7, you can install it to another disk or partition from a running Windows.
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In that case copy the contents of the whole ISO into a folder in your existing partition and then look in AutoRun.INF to find out which file is launched from the DVD when it is inserted and double click that - it should allow you launch the installer from Windows and then make sure you choose a fresh install in a new partition.
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find out which file is launched from the DVD when it is inserted and double click that - it should allow you launch the installer -Carol Haynes
Windows 7 still uses setup.exe for the installer.
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In that case copy the contents of the whole ISO into a folder in your existing partition and then look in AutoRun.INF to find out which file is launched from the DVD when it is inserted and double click that - it should allow you launch the installer from Windows and then make sure you choose a fresh install in a new partition.
-Carol Haynes
EXACTLY what I intended to do. Unfortunately, I discovered there is no AutoRun.inf or Setup.exe on my vLite'd ISO, so I'm going to try to copy them over and try again tonight.
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If it isn't a daft question why use vLite on a beta installation of Windows 7? If you are installing to an empty partition why not just use the proper installer - there will probably be enough issues because it is a beta version without adding vLite into the mix?
FWIW I got some feedback via the MS forums about the mysterious hiding the currently active OS when you install Win 7 beta on a separate partition. Apparently there were some partition table corruption problems when Vista beta was first released and so to avoid the issue recurring they decided to hide the original operating system from Win7.
Personally I think this is a ludicrous solution as they are writing the partition table every time you swap OS on your system and it seems to me to make it more likely they will corrupt your system! How difficult is it for a company like MS to get partition tables right - nothing much has changed in years with partition tables!!!
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If it isn't a daft question why use vLite on a beta installation of Windows 7? If you are installing to an empty partition why not just use the proper installer - there will probably be enough issues because it is a beta version without adding vLite into the mix?
-Carol Haynes
Not a daft question at all... I suppose I haven't revealed all the details:
1- I have no way to burn the ISO to a DVD. The only suitable media I have is a 4 Gig USB stick.
2- The Win7 ISO is 4.6 Gigabytes... 600 Megabytes too large for the USB media.
3- My target box has no DVD player nor does it have capability to boot from USB media. I didn't care until now.
4- My target box is a 1GHz Celeron with 512 Mb RAM. Any resources I can shave off by using vLite can only help, and I'm not entirely sure I would be successful even with a proper installation DVD.
So, all my canoodling is simply a sorry attempt to deal with the physical limitations of my particular set of resources.
:(
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If we all pay 1 credit each you can easily buy a dvd recorder and be done with it what you think? edit: done.
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If we all pay 1 credit each you can easily buy a dvd recorder and be done with it what you think?
-justice
I'm in...
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Just so I can play with a Windows beta? :D
Aw, you guys are too much...
Being a Linux guy, I'm actually wondering why I'm going through all the trouble.
Then, in a fit of lucidity I realize that Windows still rules in most of the world and I'm going to have to teach my son the ways of it. *sigh*
Besides that, I hear Win7 is shaping up to be a pretty nice little product.
Curiosity and cats and all that...
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I hear you, Edvard. I need another flavour of Windows like I need a hole in the head, but the hype does have me curious and I like to stay abreast of the latest versions of Windows because all my friends and family (barring parents who are on OS X Tiger) run everything from Win 98 to Vista. I'm the default go-to guy for all computer related problems, so it doesn't hurt to know what's going on...
That, and I just plain love doing this crap! Why, I don't know... it certainly doesn't pay the bills - just creates 'em!
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I realize that Windows still rules in most of the world and I'm going to have to teach my son the ways of it. *sigh*
-Edvard
Make him get a job to pay for a copy? That might make that Linux DVD look a little sweeter. (Microsoft still plays nasty with your MBR with Win7.)
_______________________
That said, Windows users will enjoy Win7 compared to XP and Vista. If you're coming from XP, you'll be delighted with the improved UI. And if you're coming from Vista, you'll be able to exhale. Win7 might be another XP, where it lasts on machines for ten years! With most computing time being done online, Moore's Law has had to take a back seat.
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:(
I can't get my hands on it. Post your Windows 7 Desktop screen-shots guys.
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I hear you, Edvard. I need another flavour of Windows like I need a hole in the head, but the hype does have me curious-Darwin
Amen.
Make him get a job to pay for a copy? That might make that Linux DVD look a little sweeter. (Microsoft still plays nasty with your MBR with Win7.)
-zridling
;D
He's only 11, but a hard worker already (I owe him about $100 for all the odd jobs I 'hired' him for this past summer - works better than giving him an allowance...)
He's already fairly proficient with his Mac G4 running Ubuntu and is beginning to understand some command-line stuff. I kinda wonder what he'll think of Windows 7.
Too bad about the MBR shenanigans, I was wondering about that. Booting a GAG (http://gag.sourceforge.net/index.html) CD ought to clear it right up...
On a further note, I took my USB drive home, partitioned and formatted a second hard drive and copied the W7 files to it. Then I rebooted and told Grub to chainload.
It worked! Sorta.
It booted up the installation program and for a second looked like it was going to work. Then it complained about not being able to find "install.wim" (it's in there, in the 'sources' folder...) so I'm stuck on that front. More later...
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Yet another positive Win7 report from the field.
"Pacific Crest Securities equity researchers today write that Microsoft’s (MSFT) forthcoming Windows 7 is 'a dramatic improvement over Vista' and that it has 'implications for the technology sector' beyond just what it will do for Microsoft... 'the increased speed and stability, relative to previous Windows iterations, are striking […] Everything seems to run faster and more smoothly.'"
If you've been using the beta, you'll likely agree. And since people are likely to sit on this [7] version as long as they did XP, it might be wise for Microsoft to reconsider charging for service pack upgrades, similar to what Apple does with OS X upgrades.
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News: Windows 7 Beta Media Player may corrupt mp3's when using Auto-Tag something-or-other.
From Neowin:
Approximately 2-3 seconds will get shaved off the beginning of MP3s if you have set your Windows Media Player 12 settings to retrieve information from the internet and update files. The default configuration for WMP12 sets this if you use the "express" option during setup.
"The problem only happens when you edit metadata on a certain class of MP3 file (a file with a header larger than 16KB). When the new metadata is written, it corrupts the beginning of the file. This can happen either when you edit the metadata from inside WMP or Explorer, or it can happen if you have WMP set to automatically fill in missing metadata using the online service and add the MP3 to your library.
Patch here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=a754008b-d574-4e39-b4ba-67b859a242b7&DisplayLang=en
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Also found this critic site (http://windows7critics.blogspot.com/), which hopes to avoid some of the problems that occurred during Vista RC1, where reports were ignored all the way to gold. Most of them revolve around improving Windows Explorer.
http://windows7critics.blogspot.com/
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News: Windows 7 may corrupt your mp3's.
Patch here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=a754008b-d574-4e39-b4ba-67b859a242b7&DisplayLang=en
-Edvard
That is such a lame headline... Windows Media Player in Win7 can corrupt your MP3s if you use the auto-tag update crap... it's not "Windows 7" doing this.
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Had they published "Windows Media Player Corrupts Your MP3s", you'd be accusing them of the same. The headline they currently have is the most accurate without being redundant IMO.
Ehtyar.
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Had they published "Windows Media Player Corrupts Your MP3s", you'd be accusing them of the same. The headline they currently have is the most accurate without being redundant IMO.-Ehtyar
No I wouldn't, because that's correct and non-sensationalist. Claiming that the operating system corrupts your MP3s has a lot of implications, like "OMFG IT'S NEW ÜBER-DRM!".
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That's not even news is it, about 4 weeks ago that was the case - that's been patched when windows 7 public first appeared it automatically got the patch from windows update.
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2- The Win7 ISO is 4.6 Gigabytes... 600 Megabytes too large for the USB media.
...
-Edvard
How?
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
That headline gave me second thoughts about installing W7, but after reading it and seeing that it is actually WMP12 (or whatever number they're on) that has the issue I stopped caring. I don't use WMP.
Seems like "Windows Media Player 7 May Corrupt Your MP3s" is a lot more descriptive than "Windows 7 May Corrupt Your MP3s". The warning in that headline is about as helpful as Google's apparent warnings about the whole internet (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=16841.0).
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Had they published "Windows Media Player Corrupts Your MP3s", you'd be accusing them of the same. The headline they currently have is the most accurate without being redundant IMO.-Ehtyar
No I wouldn't, because that's correct and non-sensationalist. Claiming that the operating system corrupts your MP3s has a lot of implications, like "OMFG IT'S NEW ÜBER-DRM!".
-f0dder
That's correct. But to a certain extent, Microsoft brings it on itself with their continued insistence on incorporating non-OS elements into their OS installation. And then they further muddy up the waters insisting that they are essential parts of the OS. (Take a look at some of their their arguments to the EU as to why they shouldn't be made unbundle Internet Explorer if you don't believe it.)
If all of their add-ons (IE, WMP, etc. etc. etc.) were just placed in an optional (and separate) Microsoft Desktop installation, we wouldn't be having this problem. Microsoft's server installers already do it this way.
Allowing a more granular approach to component installation is what's needed.
Just don't hold your breath waiting for it on the desktop. :huh:
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Are you arguing that WMP is not part of the OS (in which case I agree) but having said that I hate the DRM content in Windows but much prefer it to the problems that would arise if MS left it up to individual companies to implement their own DRM systems - do you really want Sony installing software on your system (or any of the other media companies) when you want to play a CD, DVD or BluRay disc? Can you imagine that havoc that would ensue if they all started trying to put kernel level DRM on to a system without cross testing their products? If Windows Media Player is part of the DRM solution in Windows then I'd rather have that present.
As for IE there was a recent article (sorry can't find it now) about the EU insisting that if MS won't remove IE from Windows they will be forced top inlcude the other major browsers on the desktop in the EU.
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OK guys, geez... Sorrrrrry.
Didn't mean to stir up the hornet's nest, it's just something I noticed and thought should be brought to attention, it's easily fixed, the whole damn thing is BETA anyways, YMMV, etc, ad nauseum...
(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/hiding.gif)
Edit: Fixed post.
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OK guys, geez... Sorrrrrry.
Didn't mean to stir up the hornet's nest, it's just something I noticed and thought should be brought to attention, it's easily fixed, the whole damn thing is BETA anyways, YMMV, etc, ad nauseum...
(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/hiding.gif)
Edit: Fixed post.
-Edvard
Naughty Edvard!
PS :P :-*
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Are you arguing that WMP is not part of the OS (in which case I agree) -Carol Haynes
Yes I am.
but having said that I hate the DRM content in Windows but much prefer it to the problems that would arise if MS left it up to individual companies to implement their own DRM systems - do you really want Sony installing software on your system (or any of the other media companies) when you want to play a CD, DVD or BluRay disc? Can you imagine that havoc that would ensue if they all started trying to put kernel level DRM on to a system without cross testing their products? If Windows Media Player is part of the DRM solution in Windows then I'd rather have that present.
Possibly. But I would argue that DRM would have become a non-issue, and died a death it richly deserved in the wake of the Sony root kit debacle, had not Microsoft and Apple rushed to embrace it under Vista and iTunes.
The only thing really keeping DRM alive is Apple and Microsoft's collusion with Hollywood and the record industry to support it at the kernal level. And I doubt they did so purely in the interests of protecting their customer's user experience.
Want to get rid of DRM? Convince Apple and Microsoft to stop going along with it. Without kernal level support DRM is (as you have noted) unworkable. And I doubt the media and entertainment industry can afford to abandon all the computer owners who are also their own paying customers just because they can no longer have OS DRM support. Those companies that still insist on DRM, and develop their own protection schemes, will be crowded out of the market by those producers that don't. The market itself will see to that.
Of course, once Apple and Microsoft stop playing the game, the media industry will probably try to get EU and US Federal legislation to require it. But that's a battle for another day. ;D
As for IE there was a recent article (sorry can't find it now) about the EU insisting that if MS won't remove IE from Windows they will be forced top inlcude the other major browsers on the desktop in the EU.
I'd call that a hollow victory at best, to say nothing of a transparent bid to "save a little face." It's almost like insisting that the girls be allowed to enter the boy's clubhouse; but not requiring that the boys stop being nasty, or hitting them when they do.
IE doesn't stop with it being a web browser. It also has low-level hooks into a number of key areas within the operating system and is so tightly interwoven that it is virtually impossible to remove without taking some of the OS with it.
Microsoft has done this sort of thing for a long time. Remember when removing Outlook Express from your system also removed the TAPI API? (Wanna remove OE? Well then you can just forget about faxing anything either. >:() As long as Microsoft is allowed to avail itself of undocumented OS capabilities, and play spoilsport with it's APIs and services, it doesn't matter who else comes along for the ride.
IMHO: Europe is once again trying to accommodate a bully, while still maintaining some philosophical claim to having "stood up" to it. Which is extremely unfortunate.
Because if anybody has ever paid the price for doing that, it's the countries of Europe. :(
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A couple of points: WMP != "The evil DRM". Sure, it has some DRM and imho all DRM is evil, but getting rid of WMP doesn't get rid of the Vista kernel DRM. I don't particularly like WMP itself, but I don't particularly dislike it either - I don't really care whether that component is included in the OS or not. I think Movie Maker is silly, though, and potentially hurts smaller companies.
It's impossible getting rid of IE from Windows, as it offers a lot of components that other people use. Getting rid of IE is about as ludicrous as telling a linux distro to get rid of libXML, libCurl, openSSL et cetera - just not doable. You can remove the "iexplore.exe" frontend and default browser integration, but you just can't remove IE. Besides, without a browser, how would you download an alternate browser, considering Windows doesn't have a linux-style repository and package management?
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The trouble is that MS complied with a previous EU directive and produced editions of Windows XP (the N editions) that don't contain extra MS software (such as WMP) with the exception of IE. The net effect was that the 'N' versions were more expensive than the standard version. Who is going to pay more for a product that has fewer features?
The EU could argue that the 'N' versions should be cheaper but MS would argue that the cost of producing extra versions with low demand justifies a higher price.
What I don't really understand is why Apple doesn't come in for the same criticism with its inclusion of iPhoto and iTunes etc. I also don't really understand how Apple are allowed to restrict their product to their own hardware sales - they are after all selling operating systems separate to the hardware.
And what about Linux distros that are 'sold' bundled with Gigabytes of software. Surely they should play by the same rules and sell 'application free' products too. Free download distros could also be restricted to 'application free' ISOs so that users have to choose the applications they want.
People may not like the MS dominance (I don't particularly even though I use Windows, MS Office etc) but no one can really argue that MS is not in large part responsible for the spread of personal computing. I don't really understand the argument that market dominance gives MS an unfair advantage in the applications market when they are supplied free with the OS.
For example should an OS be able to write to DVD-R and DVD-RW these days without 3rd party software? If so then doesn't the market monoply argument rule because the OS is removing the need for 3rd party writer software and if not why should the OS be able to write to hard disc (after all NVIDIA supply drivers for their motherboards - perhaps all motherboards should provide their own IDE/SATA drivers - with all the issues that would cause) ???
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And what about Linux distros that are 'sold' bundled with Gigabytes of software. Surely they should play by the same rules and sell 'application free' products too. Free download distros could also be restricted to 'application free' ISOs so that users have to choose the applications they want.-Carol Haynes
Yeah I never got that, expect that I suppose you really have to go after MS first. But if things are to be done fairly then the EU should have some equally serious issues to go after Apple with.
As for stuff being bundled free, well we all know every thing we're not charged for just has it's cost absorbed in the things we do pay for.
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What I don't really understand is why Apple doesn't come in for the same criticism with its inclusion of iPhoto and iTunes etc. I also don't really understand how Apple are allowed to restrict their product to their own hardware sales - they are after all selling operating systems separate to the hardware.
-Carol Haynes
If you could explain the Incredible Apple Teflon Effect, you'd "grok in fullness" the fundamental nature of our Universe far better than Siddhartha and Einstein combined.
In the meantime, I'll continue to sit and wait for fuller understanding....
Shanti! 8)
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People may not like the MS dominance (I don't particularly even though I use Windows, MS Office etc) but no one can really argue that MS is not in large part responsible for the spread of personal computing.
I'd actually take it further than that. I would argue Microsoft was the single largest factor in the initial spread of personal computing. Credit where credit is due. (eek! :tellme:)
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What I don't really understand is why Apple doesn't come in for the same criticism with its inclusion of iPhoto and iTunes etc. I also don't really understand how Apple are allowed to restrict their product to their own hardware sales - they are after all selling operating systems separate to the hardware.
And what about Linux distros that are 'sold' bundled with Gigabytes of software. Surely they should play by the same rules and sell 'application free' products too. Free download distros could also be restricted to 'application free' ISOs so that users have to choose the applications they want.
-Carol Haynes
Not enough market share to push the computing world in one way or another due to the inclusion of that software. While in the case of WMP, one could argue that the general crappiness of the main competitors (QuickTime and, especially, Real, which, BTW, were the main complainers) pushed the media player world in the Microsoft direction (until the marriage of the iPod and the iTunes), in the case of IE the inclusion really meant the web should accomodate Microsoft desires instead of the other way around. Thankfully, this has been totally reversed, and in this regard, the EU ruling comes too late, as Opera Software complaint. And I'll stop here before we get into politics discussing if Neelie Kroes is an US-business hater, a hero for the free market, or whatever.
After this short break, let's put the thread on the right path (:P) with an "unexpected" announcement (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/02/official-windows-7-skus-revealed-six-editions.ars)
So, Home Premium or Professional? (I wonder if the former will include RDC this time).
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After this short break, let's put the thread on the right path (:P) with an "unexpected" announcement (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/02/official-windows-7-skus-revealed-six-editions.ars)
So, Home Premium or Professional? (I wonder if the former will include RDC this time)
-Lashiec
Six editions? (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/4Medium/122.gif)
<!sigh!>
Well...here we go again.(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/beksa.gif)
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BTW: Hey Lash! Whaddya mean by "on the right path"? You can't intelligently discuss Microsoft anything without also looking at the bigger picture. Windows 7 is not going to just be a software product - it's also going to be a factor for social and business changes.
It's really not so much what Win7 will be able to do, as it is where Microsoft plans on taking us.
Where do you want to go today? Oh, never mind. Why not just let Microsoft tell you. ;D
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The thing is that, with or without IE (blergh, I prefer the U2 version) into Windows, the browser is losing market share every month, and even if they greatly fixed their ways with versions 7 and 8, I seriously doubt they will regain a considerable number of users.
WMP is also no threat to anyone, with iTunes and Winamp right there, and tons of others jukeboxes and players available and some being used in considerable numbers.
And finally, Microsoft moved Windows Live Mail and Movie Maker outside the OS, so that leaves them with practically nothing else, apart from maybe Media Center. So, unless mouser plans to sue Microsoft for the Start Menu search functions and the Snipping Tool, there's no much else to complain. Or I'm missing some critical app. Or (I hope not) Microsoft deliberately left a Trojan horse in Windows 7 without anyone knowing.
I'm more worried about some of the other things they're doing, like pushing Games for Windows down the throat of PC gamers, which makes them jump through hoops and hoops of nonsense using software that barely works. No wonder PC gaming is "dying".
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...
2- The Win7 ISO is 4.6 Gigabytes... 600 Megabytes too large for the USB media.
...
-Edvard
How? (see attachment in previous post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=15107.msg149427#msg149427))
-Hirudin
Wha...?
:wallbash:
I could have sworn it was >4G...
(grumble... mumble... short-term memory... mumble)
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Perhaps the largest change, however, is Microsoft's recognition of the netbook market. Previously, Microsoft sold its Starter software only into emerging markets. Now, the company has positioned Starter as an ideal entry point for extending Windows 7 into netbooks. The catch? Like other Starter editions, that netbook will only run three applications at a time, an arbitrary limitation the software imposes.
{source} (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2340316,00.asp)
WTF!!!?!?!?!!? Why oh why would any OS vendor limit their OS to running 3 apps at a time. It makes cutting out Aero as Vista did seem generous. So I'm researching a web article to mail to a friend, making notes in word as I go along. If my antivirus opens its UI, I have to close one of my others. What if heavens forbid, I want to listen to music while working!? Holy schnitzel...
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As far as I can tell, the three app limit is Netbook only and I surmise it's to keep users from overloading the hardware - non?
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Don't have the link, (chris pirillo?), but Microsoft announced that Win7 will be sold in five flavors compared to Vista's six. Still three to many to me. Offer both 32- and 64-bit versions on a dual layer disc and let the customer choose how much or little to install. Make it so that they can always go back and install more if needed.
EDIT: Here's the link. I don't count the Enterprise license for desktop use, of course.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3456
- Windows 7 Starter Edition (aimed at emerging markets and netbooks)
- Windows 7 Home Basic (aimed at emerging markets)
- Windows 7 Home Premium (primary home edition)
- Windows 7 Professional (primary business edition)
- Windows 7 Ultimate (for consumers who wants everything)
- Windows 7 Enterprise (volume license only)
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As far as I can tell, the three app limit is Netbook only and I surmise it's to keep users from overloading the hardware - non?-Darwin
Just an arbitrary limit to segment the market and sell more versions and confuse users, *SIGH*.
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It does not make sense at all. Starter is replaced by Home Basic in emerging markets (and no, it's not available in the rest of the world), and instead of killing Starter once and for all, they decide to bundle it with netbooks with such artificial limitations. People will flock to Linux in mass, or even worse for Microsoft, they'll keep XP, forcing them to continue support services for God knows how many time.
Meanwhile the nVidia ION chipset for Atom CPUs is capable of playing HD video without problems. And you say a netbook can't run more than three apps at a time? What a joke.
Now, despite this, no one is saying netbook makers will bundle the Starter edition with their systems, but Microsoft is supposedly targeting the market with this edition.
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The way I understand it is that for general usage they have Home Premium and Professional (as in XP).
They still have an Ultimate edition for anyone gullible/stupid enough to pay extra for not real gain and Enterprise licenses which businesses will be suspicious of until two weeks before the new version of Windows is released and then decide to pass on it (they will all still be limping on with Windows XP).
With Win 7 Starter and Home Basic they basically have two packages that show little or no commitment to solving real issues. If they really want to help emerging economies they could do so very simply by having very low prices on Home Premium and Professional versions in those markets. OK some copies would spill out into other markets but so what - giving Home Basic to poor countries is just a slap in the face and shows that MS really don't care about those markets - they are purely interested in maintaining hiked pricing structures in the rest of the world whilst trying to give the appearance of caring.
As for Win 7 Starter MS knows that they can't cram a quart into a pint pot and they have backed themselves into a corner. First, they can't keep extending XP licensing on netbooks without losing face even more than they have done already. Second, they only extended XP licensing to maintain some market in the netbook class because they knew Vista would kill any potential future market if they tried to get vendors to install it. Win 7 Starter is really a simple admission that Windows from version 7 onwards is going to replace XP but that it doesn't actually work properly.
I would guess two things will happen in the next year or two - Linux will be the OS of choice for manufacturers of Netbooks because they won't want to piss off customers by selling them a more expensive but crappier product and MS will come up with its own Netbook (either in house or under license) that runs a tweaked version of Windows 7. It will be about as successful as Zune (i.e. a total catastophe) and MS will spend 2 to 3 years telling everyone how successful it was before binning it and they reinstate a Windows XP type OS for OEM netbooks.
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i hope you can install other versions of windows 7 yourself on netbooks. that arbritrary limitation just sucks tho, microsoft still doesn't get it. Windows 8 will be able to run 5 applications then, wow definately got to upgrade to that - best wait :P
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I would guess two things will happen in the next year or two - Linux will be the OS of choice for manufacturers of Netbooks because they won't want to piss off customers by selling them a more expensive but crappier product and MS will come up with its own Netbook (either in house or under license) that runs a tweaked version of Windows 7. It will be about as successful as Zune (i.e. a total catastophe) and MS will spend 2 to 3 years telling everyone how successful it was before binning it and they reinstate a Windows XP type OS for OEM netbooks.
-Carol Haynes
I think you've hit it spot on.
And once they do, their biggest challenge will be to come up with yet another insipid name for it. That, and how to break it into six or seven inconsistently overlapping versions with at at least 12 different price tags.
Then there's the ad campaign:
Try Microsoft Windows MS-VistaXP-7-i686-Me for Workgroups
Yesterday's Technology at Tomorrow's Prices!
Hmmm...that probably wouldn't be the best ad slogan even if it were the most accurate.
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Hmmm...that probably wouldn't be the best ad slogan even if it were the most accurate.
-40hz
Volvo: boxy but good!
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As far as I can tell, the three app limit is Netbook only and I surmise it's to keep users from overloading the hardware - non?-Darwin
Just an arbitrary limit to segment the market and sell more versions and confuse users, *SIGH*.
-f0dder
Crap. You (and other respondents) are probably right... I've yet to play with a Netbook, so have no idea of their capabilities, though a friend just bought one for her daughter, so I hope to have an opportunity soon.
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Here's more info/commentary on all the various editions planned for Windows 7 courtesy of PCMag.com
Link: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2340338,00.asp
The Windows 7 Versions: What You Need to Know
...
In this article, we'll attempt to give you as many details about the new operating systems as we can, based on Microsoft's own documents that describe the new updates.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
I'm starting getting sick of the whole bloody thing, and it's not even out yet...
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I hear, ya, 40hz! I’ve pretty much abandoned the beta in favour of Vista. It’s stable, it’s attractive, and it does what I want it to do, when I need it to, efficiently, quickly and without drama. Why on earth am I even considering messing around with a beta OS? BTW, you will have inferred that I’ve not yet gotten around to installing Win 7 on actual hardware (as opposed to my VM install), and you’d be correct! I don’t think I’m going to bother, either. I haven’t run the VM in at least two weeks and feel no urge to any time soon, either...
I’ll wait for Windows 7 to be released and re-assess at that time. No doubt I’ll be waiting for SP-1 before upgrading, though.
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I hear, ya, 40hz! I’ve pretty much abandoned the beta ...
I’ll wait for Windows 7 to be released and re-assess at that time. No doubt I’ll be waiting for SP-1 before upgrading, though.
-Darwin
I think we're both sitting in the same pew for that one. :Thmbsup:
I got so annoyed by the whole 'version thing' that I zapped the beta from the test drive it was on. That 200GB is now home to a bright and shiny new T2 SDE I'd been meaning to set up for quite a while.
I think I'll worry about dealing with Win7 when it finally comes out.
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How many Vista Home Basic computers have you guys seen? I've maybe seen one, but I might be mistaken. The 7 Home Basic (whatever it's called) will pretty much go undistributed. It's quite possible they want a "version" of Windows 7 that is cheap so they can say "Windows 7 starting at $79.99". Pretty much bait and switch, but the bait will be there, just nobody in their right mind will buy it.
After this short break, let's put the thread on the right path (:P)-Lashiec
Nice job!
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MS To Offer Free Windows 7 Upgrade To Vista Users. (Now, I wonder why they'd do that?)
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/11/238222&from=rss
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Uhm haven't they always done this? if you get a new pc with the old os within a small period before or after the new os launches you get the upgrade. nothing new? It's not like they're going to run a campaign where everyone gets a free os.
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I don't think the window has ever been this far out. Still, this is great news. I think people will sit on Win7 for a long time when they buy their next computer, much like they've done with XP. Everything else will be happening in the cloud, which makes MS Office 2007/09 the biggest loser.
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Everything else will be happening in the cloud, which makes MS Office 2007/09 the biggest loser.
-zridling
You keep saying this, I keep doubting this.
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MS is building cloud like facilities into Office 2007 already (through Microsoft Update) and many big software companies are looking towards a cloud based future (Adobe's Acrobat.com, the whole of Google, MS's live.com etc) and it is on;y going to get more competitive.
Unfortunately they all see this as the next cash cow in computer terms - and with the growth of netbooks etc. I think it is going to get more an more integrated into operating systems.
I don't want it, I don't like it and I will resist any attempt to get me to use it (unless it is to my benefit) but I can't help feeling that at some point it will become more difficult to avoid it and that is when cloud computing will become essential to most users and computers will become little more than appliances (glorified TVs and DVD recorders with internet access).
Sad but it is coming.
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MS is building cloud like facilities into Office 2007 already ...
***
I don't want it, I don't like it and I will resist any attempt to get me to use it (unless it is to my benefit) but I can't help feeling that at some point it will become more difficult to avoid it and that is when cloud computing will become essential to most users and computers will become little more than appliances (glorified TVs and DVD recorders with internet access).
Sad but it is coming.
-Carol Haynes
Apparently Microsoft is looking to upgrade their corporate "fog machine" with a shiny new cloud machine.
Either way, the forecast calls for rain.
Rows and floes of angel hair,
And ice cream castles in the air,
And feather canyons everywhere.
Ive looked at clouds that way.
But now they only block the sun,
They rain and snow on everyone.
So many things I would have done,
But clouds got in my way...
Ive looked at clouds from both sides now,
From up and down, and still somehow,
It's cloud illusions I recall...
I really don't know clouds at all.
(From the song: Both Sides Now by Joni Mitchell)
"I can hardly wait," 40hz says sarcastically.
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Everything else will be happening in the cloud, which makes MS Office 2007/09 the biggest loser.
-zridling
You keep saying this, I keep doubting this.-f0dder
As a quick tangent, here's why I think MS Office 2007/09 is the last of its kind.
- Cost: Let's face it: most of us are broke and are looking for things we can live without. Buying into MS Office lures you into using Microsoft's proprietary formats which means vendor lock-in which means you buy into its ecosphere and BAM! next thing you know, you're buying the upgrade, too. Never forget how the ordinary person freaks out over the word "free." Must be built into human nature by now. Finally, why pay for what I neither need nor use, or for something that prevents me from leaving and taking my data with me? (In my case, Microsoft doesn't do Linux, so using MS-OOXML is out of the question.)
.
- Breadth: Most users don't need that much functionality. I wrote papers, theses, and one very fat dissertation (w/formulae) using MS Office (Word 1.1/Excel 2.2)-2000. Office 2003 was perfected to me. (Was I the only one who used the 'Research Pane'?) And mind you, OpenOffice 3 also does a whole lot of everything for its 160Mb.
.
- Learning Curve: This depends on how you work and what you need to do, but it remains real. It's that last 10% of the program that takes study.
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- The Cloud: As cliche as this term has become, when I can import and work with any MS or ODF file inside of a free office suite like Zoho Office (http://zoho.com/) or to a lesser extent, Google Docs, and then return it to its source without a single hitch, the previous three reasons are suddenly come to light. Better, the document is already formatted in HTML and ready to be shared online rather than in print, which again is cheaper and faster. And when you see how IBM is tying Lotus Symphony between client and cloud (or Google's G-Drive, Amazon's S3), it's exciting to know that your data is no longer hostage to your latest local backup or next HD failure.
Here's Zoho's simple toolbar, which gives me a lot of functionality at a glance:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://zoho.com/)
When Carol writes:
"I don't want it, I don't like it and I will resist any attempt to get me to use it (unless it is to my benefit) but I can't help feeling that at some point it will become more difficult to avoid it and that is when cloud computing will become essential to most users and computers will become little more than appliances (glorified TVs and DVD recorders with internet access)."
I understand the feeling. But -- correct me if I'm wrong -- Carol seems to compute from an application-centered approach, compared to my data-centered one. My data are far more important today than which application I use, because I'm forced to use different tools depending on where I am and which company I'm working with. I have to be able to take that data with me. And that is exactly what Microsoft has sought to frustrate since I can remember, forcing me to, in effect, pay Microsoft to accurately access my data when saved in Microsoft formats. Never mind me, I can no longer be held hostage to a corporation's whims.
No, the cloud isn't the answer for everything. But it's where I'm already living, which makes it easy for me to use any OS I want while having access to my files anywhere in real time.
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I'd much rather go with (relatively) slow OpenOffice and LOCAL FILES THAT I AM IN CONTROL OF than limited-functionality internet-depending cloud crap :)
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That's just it. Doesn't have to exist online, since several of these office apps now provide local versions.
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There are a number of assumptions about how people ARE ABLE to work.
It has become increasingly clear to me in recent months that even people working within the line of sight of where I live have very different broadband experiences (from non-existent to barely faster than dial up and very error prone to fast and efficient) and I know from other user comments in these forums that these problems occur all over the world - even in the USA, especially in non-urban areas.
Given that there is a growth in 'work from home' models sorting out decent and affordable internet access has to be a priority but companies who provide these services are limited to what is cost effective.
Not only is broadband highly sporadic and variable in the area in which I live and work but it is becoming increasingly difficult to get decent dial-up services and when you do get them to work the internet is fast becoming a place that doesn't effectively support dial-up users.
This seriously limits the effectiveness of the 'cloud' model. The problems of internet access are only going to get worse as the number of users grow exponentially worldwide - effectively drowning the bandwidth capacity of the WWW.
If you can access it I agree that you can backup your data on your own system from some 'cloud' systems but when people and companies buy into the idea and spend a lot of time and effort getting access and security sorted out what happens when the big companies such as MS see other companies (such as Zoho) doing well and come along offering a deal that can't be missed to sell off their service?
This has happened so many times in the past with online services and software solutions (and seems to be a model many online companies are actively courting because it is a way to become very rich very quickly) .
Just taking Zoho as an example - if it is bought out there is no guarantee the service will be continued. Even if it does continue there is no guarantee that it will remain free. OK you can move on to another provider but if you have invested a lot of time and money training employees how one system works (not to mention implementing backup systems and evaluating and setting up security systems) you are not going to be very happy when you wake up one morning to find out your entire infrastructure has closed down - or is likely to in the next month or two.
There is also the whole confidentiality issue. The war on terror has seen many terrifying liberties taken with personal freedom in the US and the UK (and probably other countries too). Recently the UK wanted to build a database of EVERY email sent and received, internet browsing history and even mobile phone calls for every UK citizen (in the name of combating terrorism). As it happens the non-elected parts of UK government managed to get the proposals thrown out (so much for democracy) but if this proposal rears its ugly head what is to stop governments demanding legal access to any files stored in cloud systems. Are businesses really going to be happy storing anything sensitive where there is the potential that governments (and even potentially foreign governments) can simply access everything at the touch of a button (and possibly even store archive copies)? It is already illegal in the UK to use encrypted email because the government want to be able to intercept and read your mail!
On a personal level I can see the cloud being a convenient form of storage and access but I can't see businesses jumping at the idea.
On another comment from Zaine - how does MS lock you into proprietary formats? OK if you use MS formats they are proprietary but every MS app allows you to save documents in open formats (such as HTML) and always has. AFAIK Office 2007 is the first time in about 15 years where new file formats have been introduced to their office suites and even so you can still set the apps to only use the old formats - they have also produced addons for older products that allow the new file formats to be opened in older products so there is no particular lock-in and there is no necessity to upgrade.
I don't usually sing the praises of MS but we have to remember that MS Office was (and always has been) aimed at the corporate market and most of the innovations since Office 97 have been aimed at that corporate sector. It is testament to the quality of the software that individual users have adopted the software for home use too even when there are viable free alternatives.
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Excellent points, Carol.
Broadband access and cost
This is a real concern, and not just in your backyard. In the US, broadband access is seriously overpriced and getting slower by the day compared to other countries. Anyone noticed Korea lately?! If it were up to me, governments should provide broadband access to everyone, not the private sector. As for repeated attempts to constrict personal liberty at the expense of your IP address, that's what both the US and UK have become this decade. The sheer [will to] POWER to spy on every single part of our lives is never satisfied. Even George Orwell would be aghast.
The future of cloud companies
True, anyone could be bought out. But though there's been many online suites, only the best have survived to date. Microsoft can't decide whether it wants to buy Yahoo or not, so its own online strategy is a murky as anything else it does. Does anyone know where Microsoft is taking Azure and Live, btw?
Vendor lock-in; proprietary formats
Microsoft practices this even in Office 2007 by not accurately converting documents from or to other formats. Remember the seriously bloated HTML code that Office 2000 and 2003 saved in? It was astounding. Office 2007 still uses proprietary elements within MS-OOXML which it does not share with other vendors, even though it's an ISO standard format now. To read .doc files, you have to use compatibility mode. Point is, I couldn't keep up with it, nor could 18 years of Microsoft-formatted documents I had accumulated. Switching to ODF (which is not dependent on OpenOffice alone) cured that. On any Linux machine, for example, I can easily open and change the contents of any ODF file from the command line.
I can't dispute the excellence of MS Office in many, many ways. Just its (proprietary) formats.
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Windows 7 Vs. Linux: The Battle For Your Desktop (http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=214200257&subSection=OpenSource)
by Serdar Yegulalp
Some of the highlights of Win7 and why it won't dent Linux, but will put XP and Vista to rest.
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It seems Win 7 allows software vendors to bypass your firewall and lock you out of your own settings folder as a result of tinkering with a legitimate copy of a piece of software:
http://tech.slashdot.org/firehose.pl?id=3443509&op=view
That's not so much a surprise, but what WAS a surprise: Noting that Win7 allows programs like Photoshop to stealthily insert themselves in your firewall exception list. Further, that the OS is crippled towards allowing large software vendors to penetrate your machine. Even further, that that crippling is responsible for disabling of a program based on a modified .dll. Remote attestation, anyone? And then finding that the OS even after reboot has locked you out of your own Local Settings folder; has denied you permission to move or delete the modified DLL; and refuses to allow the replacement of the Local Settings folder after it is unlocked with Unlocker to move it to the Desktop for examination (where it also denies you entry to your own folder). Setting permissions to "allow everyone" was disabled
MS gives with one hand then steals much more back with the other. Perhaps it is just some modified UAC, and we need more details, but it sure does seem draconian.
Palladium is still (stealthily) slowly on the March for Windows users, and it still stinks!
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Ok, now they are just going ahead and shooting themselves right square in the foot.
Sure, software makers and music labels have rights to soak you for whatever you're willing to pay, but this is really going farther than is really necessary. If anything kills DRM, things like this will.
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Em, after reading the comments in Slashdot, I think it would be wise to wait until there's a real analysis, and not just a random guy commenting its findings without providing real evidence. For example, the "Win7 allows programs like Photoshop to stealthily insert themselves in your firewall exception list" is OLD, µTorrent has been doing this for years in XP.
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During the brief FUD debacle, development of Windows 7 towards the first Release Candidate has continued, including some minor tweaks to the OS behaviour and features (http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/02/26/some-changes-since-beta.aspx). Nothing groundbreaking, but some of them are more than welcome, like #2
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Sounds like a good amount of polishing changes :Thmbsup:
I just wish they would allow custom themes that aren't signed by MS... and of course also focus on performance, memory footprint, etc :)
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Around a month ago, blogger Long Zheng and developer Rafael Rivera demonstrated how to exploit two security flaws in Windows 7 UAC: one to disable the same UAC sending mere keystrokes, and the second one to autoelevate (giving administrator rights to a program without UAC prompts) any given program using rundll32 (part of Windows, which allows DLLs to run). After some confusing statements by Microsoft, the flaws were acknowledged, and somewhat fixed (I understand the second flaw can still be exploited).
Turns out that at the same time those flaws were made public and discussed in the Internet, another developer, Leo Davidson, found another flaw in UAC (http://www.pretentiousname.com/misc/win7_uac_whitelist2.html) which essentially makes the whole system useless. Using ordinary methods built into Windows, Leo was able to inject arbitrary code into a 'trusted' process and break all kind of havoc in the system.
Peter Bright published a concise summary of the research (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/03/opinion-ms-should-kill-win7-uac.ars) just hours ago at Ars Technica, for those who wish to avoid the most complex technical details. The discovery does not only affect UAC but also Microsoft credibility as it seems Microsoft apps can happily bypass UAC prompts while 3rd parties had to either make users deal with the prompts or redesign their apps so they require the prompts as less as possible.
The outcome of this for now is that all the usability improvements Microsoft made for UAC in Windows 7 were for nothing, and the only way to stay secure is to raise that lever in the configuration and go back to Vista's behaviour.
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The outcome of this for now is that all the usability improvements Microsoft made for UAC in Windows 7 were for nothing, and the only way to stay secure is to raise that lever in the configuration and go back to Vista's behaviour.-Lashiec
Let's hope they get this fixed. Win7 is after all still in Beta mode...
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I am surprised Zaine didn't post this before me, since he is such a big ODF supporter...
Microsoft Supports ODF (http://outserveblog.com/2009/03/15/open-source/microsoft-supports-odf-opendocument-format/)
What may not be so widely known is that Windows 7 (the latest version of Windows which was available as a free beta) ships with a copy of WordPad that supports ODF as standard as the screenshot shows below:
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I am surprised Zaine didn't post this before me, since he is such a big ODF supporter...
-app103
;D Actually Sun wrote that plugin and made it available to Microsoft Office back in February. I noticed, but didn't think it was Win7 worthy.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
It just kills me that Sun did what Microsoft could and should have done in the first place instead of FUD-ing and fighting. They used freely available open source code to build seamless, intuitive support for ODF into MS Word. No unmaintainable XSLT. No funky, redundant additional menu items. No tortuous workflow designed to make users treat ODF as second class. No pre-requisite for the OOXML add-in to make it work.
Now if we could start to work on an open filesystem for Windows....
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;D Actually Sun wrote that plugin and made it available to Microsoft Office back in February. I noticed, but didn't think it was Win7 worthy.
-zridling
February of this year? Microsoft made the announcement in May of last year (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/may08/05-21ExpandedFormatsPR.mspx), that ODF support was going to be added in Office 2007 SP2.
But, I didn't say Word, since Word still doesn't officially support ODF because Microsoft hasn't added it yet. (sure you can go get a plugin for it from somewhere else, but that isn't the same as it being including in it, as part of the product, by Microsoft)
And Word (or Office) isn't part of Windows any way. It's a separate product, and an expensive one, at that.
If I had been referring to Word, you are right...it wouldn't have been worthy of mentioning in a thread about Win7. But that wasn't what I said or what I was referring to.
What I said was Wordpad, which comes with Windows (this is what make it worthy of mentioning in a thread about Win7)...what has always been a second rate poor excuse for a word processor, that traditionally never supports anything that you really need to open. An application that has remained virtually unchanged since Win95.
I am referring to this thing that looks like the results of a beginner's tutorial in coding:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Quick! What Windows version is this from?
Microsoft finally gave it a facelift, an update, and in Win7 it officially supports ODF now, out of the box, before Word officially will.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
This is Wordpad from Win7.
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Quick! What Windows version is this from?
-app103
Win2K?
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Windows XP (classic mode)?
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It just kills me that Sun did what Microsoft could and should have done in the first place instead of FUD-ing and fighting. They used freely available open source code to build seamless, intuitive support for ODF into MS Word. No unmaintainable XSLT. No funky, redundant additional menu items. No tortuous workflow designed to make users treat ODF as second class. No pre-requisite for the OOXML add-in to make it work.
Now if we could start to work on an open filesystem for Windows....
-zridling
Well...if you're gonna confuse the issue with common sense and logic, we might as well end the discussion right here. ;) ;D
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Windows XP (classic mode)?
-Shades
Bingo!
But it could just as easily been mistaken for Win95's Wordpad:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/win95)
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Windows XP (classic mode)?
-Shades
Bingo!
But it could just as easily been mistaken for Win95's Wordpad:
(see attachment in previous post (http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots/win95)) (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=15107.msg156323#msg156323)
-app103
Well... yeah, but it was in classic mode, no?
To be honest, it's been so long since I had themes enabled on any XP box that I have no idea what Wordpad looks like "XP themed" - is it the same as in classic mode, or...?
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- is it the same as in classic mode, or...?
-Darwin
Yeah, but looks like it was made by Fisher-Pricew instead of Microsoft. :D
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- is it the same as in classic mode, or...?
-Darwin
Yeah, but looks like it was made by Fisher-Pricew instead of Microsoft. :D
-app103
;D Very true!
It's not so much better in Vista...
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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Looks like Microsoft is giving away copies of XP with every copy of Windows 7 (http://community.winsupersite.com/blogs/paul/archive/2009/04/24/secret-no-more-revealing-virtual-windows-xp-for-windows-7.aspx) you get. If that's how they intend to finally bury the old OS, they're doing it wrong :P
I wonder if that 100% compatibility figure also includes games...
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I wonder if that 100% compatibility figure also includes games...
It's done through Virtualization, so it won't be exactly the same as running on a real physical XP machine. The answer to your question will likely be the same as "does VirtualPC support DirectX hardware acceleration properly".
I'm not really sure what I think of this thing, it seems like extreme overkill to me.
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The answer to your question will likely be the same as "does VirtualPC support DirectX hardware acceleration properly".
-f0dder
Yeah, I was afraid of that. VirtualPC is really behind the competition regarding graphics acceleration support, and that's even with the leaders in that area offering lackluster performance compared with the real thing. It would be really nice to have it, though.
I assume this is more of a nod to businesses looking to adopt Windows 7 than anything else.
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Yeah, I was afraid of that. VirtualPC is really behind the competition regarding graphics acceleration support, and that's even with the leaders in that area offering lackluster performance compared with the real thing. It would be really nice to have it, though.-Lashiec
To be fair, it's a pretty darn complex thing to get right. Trying to emulate a GPU and getting acceptable speeds would likely be unfeasible. So instead you'd have to come up with some "passthrough" mechanism, possibly by intercepting DirectX/OpenGL calls and routing them outside the VM... this is OS-specific, hard to get right, and opens the possibility for breakout scenarios - which you don't want happening :)
I wish that MS would force software developers to fix their damn bugs instead of keeping backwards bug compatibility. But I know it's not realistic, and if they attempted to do it, people would bitch and moan.
Anyway, there's a new article about Win7 enhancements: Engineering Windows 7 Graphics Performance (http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archive/2009/04/25/engineering-windows-7-for-graphics-performance.aspx), which is a nice read. A summary:
- Global GDI locks removed, scales much better with multiple graphics-intensive apps now.
- Graphics objects no longer kept in system memory, lives exclusively on the GPU with updated Win7 drivers.
- Much better use of GPU acceleration for GDI primitives, freeing up CPU for other work.
Altogether, those updates should result in a smoother graphics experience and (much!) reduced memory usage. Note that you won't get the reduced-memory and hardware-acceleration benefits with Vista drivers, those require native Win7 drivers (Vista drivers will still work, though). The reduced lockingGDI improvements are independent of drivers though.
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It's a damn good idea in my opinion - if this virtual compatibility layer approach is developed properly it should mean that all legacy support in the native Windows can be dropped so that anything running natively can benefit from a leaner and faster operating system.
Provided the compatibility layer only loads when required it would be a huge incentive for legacy developers to update their code to native status which would be fantastic for end users in the long run.
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Carol: the problem is that, as far as I understand it, it's implemented as a full effing OS install in a virtual machine - this is cumbersome and takes up quite some disk space. And it's not like you can benefit super++ much from "removing legacy", unless you want to push all native applications to the VM and only run .NET applications directly on the OS...
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This is a great move which was long overdue. I'm pretty sure managed code is the ultimate goal for Microsoft both in the OS (Midori) as well as for apps. It will take a while to happen, and even if it isn't, this opens the way to modernise the API and not have to support all the legacy cruft in Win32.
Disk space and resources are cheap and virtualization is only going to get better. In fact I would like Windows to support native sandboxing for any app - something like SandboxIE, or Protected Mode for any app, not just IE. It would let you run any app you want virtualized, and flag it as suspicious if it tries to cross system boundaries. This would be an awesome feature for both home users and IT.
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MrCrispy: until dotNET reaches native performance (memory usage as well as CPU consumption), I certainly hope they are going to keep the Win32 API.
Besides, what does dotNET use internally? :) - it's not like they're going to rewrite the kernel for dotNET anytime soon, and I bet the framework ultimately ends up calling win32 and not the NT native API.
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Well, as you know Vista was supposed to use .NET for the shell and all apps. Until they realized they couldn't get it done, performance was too slow, and we got the infamous Longhorn reset which also got rid of a lot of cool features.
You probably also know of Singulariy (kernel) and Midori (OS built on top of it) which are written in managed code. Singulariy is MSR and Midori is in active development. Who knows if one day they will replace Windows, but this statement -"it's not like they're going to rewrite the kernel for dotNET anytime soon, and I bet the framework ultimately ends up calling win32 and not the NT native API" is certainly not going to be true for long :)
IMO .NET apps have large memory latency due to the JIT and GC, which is most visible as increased startup times. But runtime performance is almost as good or better than native code.
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It's a damn good idea in my opinion - if this virtual compatibility layer approach is developed properly it should mean that all legacy support in the native Windows can be dropped so that anything running natively can benefit from a leaner and faster operating system.
Provided the compatibility layer only loads when required it would be a huge incentive for legacy developers to update their code to native status which would be fantastic for end users in the long run.
-Carol Haynes
Actually from what I've been reading, it loads completely transparently. A Google search on "Windows XP Mode" will yield a tone of newly released info. but the highlights are:
Free XP license with Business, Ultimate, & Enterprise editions.
Based on VPC7, and has no independent desktop, so apps installed in XP Mode are available and run directly on the Win7 desktop.
Yes their objective with it is to run in the direction you're thinking.
The hang point with Vista was enterprise level customers with legacy apps that were $3,000+ per seat to upgrade if available not wanting to take the "hit" simply stayed with XP. This will give them the best of both worlds and hopefully get them to jump on Win7.
I've never seen an accounting app that needed much from the GPU, so I doubt that will be a concern.
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I've never seen an accounting app that needed much from the GPU, so I doubt that will be a concern.-Stoic Joker
Funny that something as simple (OS features used, not business logic) as an accounting application can be written so crappily that it doesn't work across the whole Win95 -> Win7 range :)
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I've never seen an accounting app that needed much from the GPU, so I doubt that will be a concern.-Stoic Joker
Funny that something as simple (OS features used, not business logic) as an accounting application can be written so crappily that it doesn't work across the whole Win95 -> Win7 range :)
-f0dder
True, I suspect it has much to do with tendancy towards rushing to vertical markets for big $$$ in the hopes that "X" will be the only kid on the block for that nitch. Company "X" invests with the lowest bidder that uses a RAD OOP rig and didn't laugh at the insainly tight deadline.
...and we the poor bastards in support/administration have to suffer because of it.
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Windows 7 RC has been released to MSDN and Technet today.
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Windows 7 RC has been released to MSDN and Technet today.
-Josh
See here (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=18187.0) for more information :)
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XP mode is dead as a dodo!
It requires Hyper-V enabled CPUs to run!
If businesses are reluctant to upgrade from XP how many of them are going to have Hyper-V enabled systems throughout the organisation???
None of my systems have Hyper-V enabled CPUs (a mixture of AMD Athlon64 single and dual chips, and Intel dual core) so I can't even test it.
The stupid thing is that VirtualPC worked fine (albeit as a crappy VM option) on all of my systems - now they are updating it to make it pointless for most people. What is even worse is that it isntalled without a squeak - it is only when you actually want to use the f****g thing that it tells you to b******r off.
What's the betting it is to do with security!!
So the answer is don't get excited about XP mode in Windows 7 it is likely to be a damp squib at best but more likely to be the ulitmate option to REALLY piss off business customers who thought MS might finally have take the hint over application compatibility.
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Where does it say Hyper-V is required? From what I am reading, it only requires hardware virtualization support on the system board. I can enable virtualization on my 4 year old dell PC quite easily. XP Mode seems to run fairly flawlessly here.
Windows Virtual PC requires a CPU with the Intel™ Virtualization Technology or AMD-V® feature turned on. This feature must be enabled in the system BIOS. For details on how to enable, visit the Configure BIOS page or check with your computer manufacturer. -Microsoft.com
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Go to the Virtual PC web page and it says Hyper-V is a rquirement.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/download.aspx
Windows Virtual PC requires a CPU with the Intel™ Virtualization Technology or AMD-V® feature turned on. This feature must be enabled in the system BIOS.
When you run XP Mode on my systems (all less than 3 years old - one less than a year old) it says Hyper-V support is not available. No BIOS options.
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I see virtualization in my BIOS and it is enabled. Plus, I see no mention of the word HYPER on the virtual-pc pages
Before you download
Windows Virtual PC requires a CPU with the Intel™ Virtualization Technology or AMD-V® feature turned on. This feature must be enabled in the system BIOS. For details on how to enable, visit the Configure BIOS page or check with your computer manufacturer.
Learn MoreLearn how to configure your BIOS settings to enable hardware virtualization on your PC
Windows Virtual PC requires Windows 7 Release Candidate. MSDN subscribers and TechNet Plus subscribers can download it from the Microsoft TechNet Springboard site.
Learn MoreVisit the Microsoft TechNet Springboard site
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OK if you have those settings and it works on your machine I suppose that is OK for you. The main issue I see is that business still running Windows XP software and as a result are locked into using XP are unlikely to want to buy new computers so that they can run XP software in an XP Mode virtual PC - what do they gain apart from a large bill for new computers?
Hyper-V comes from the error message generated by XP mode when it refuses to run.
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Hyper-V is MS's virtualization technology already here with Server 2008. But yes it does need the hardware virtualization support in the cpu and it is a pity that tech didn't appear sooner and be a bit more widespread. I only have one computer with it.
I guess the thing is, that with Windows 7, people upgrading their PCs hopefully won't still be wanting to run XP on them. A new PC = hardware virtualization support = XP mode for legacy apps. It was always unlikely people with older computers would upgrade the OS any way, most people get a full new PC. Now with that they won't have to worry about existing apps not working.
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Note that not all Intel and AMD CPUs include (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_virtualization#Hardware_support) virtualization extensions. Intel is the most troublesome case, as many of their current models have Intel-VT removed arbitrarily. They used to do that with the first Core 2 family, and, despite the confusion, they have not learned anything since then.
So much for the Wintel duo, first the "Vista Capable" lawsuit, now this... Intel likes to cause trouble for Microsoft.
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A related blog entry on seeing if your chip has support. Haven't tested it myself.
Easy Way to Determine If CPU Supports Windows 7 Virtual PC (XP Mode) (http://www.mydigitallife.info/2009/05/05/easy-way-to-determine-if-cpu-supports-windows-7-virtual-pc-xp-mode/).
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Ed Bott has posted a list of Intel processors identifying which do (and don't) support the new XP Mode.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=946
Interesting read.
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It was always unlikely people with older computers would upgrade the OS any way, most people get a full new PC. Now with that they won't have to worry about existing apps not working.
-Eóin
Not true - precisely the corporate and medium sized business market that MS are targeting with Win 7 XP mode are the people who have volume license agreements with MS so that they get the latest versions of software as a matter of course.
There were two reasons Vista failed in this market:
- extra hardware demands
- lack of backward compatibility for key apps
Many PCs (and even more laptops) are still supplied without CPU level virtualisation support and so many business who have purchased computers in the last year or two won't necessarily benefit from XP Mode. Older computers just forget it.
A lot of businesses run their computers into the ground - and almost no company is going to have an annual replacement of technology (unless you are actively involved in the development of technology - but those companies won't worry about XP Mode anyway).
The biggest potential problem for MS are the non-adoption of Windows 7 by business users and is precisely why they put XP mode in the code - it is not there for home users and is why it is restricted to the higher cost versions only which are aimed at the pro market. However, there is a bigger problem in my opinion - over-hyping XP Mode in Windows 7 and the fact you don't need to upgrade hardware beyond the Vista required level only to the majority of their target audience frustrated and disappointed.
If MS miss the boat with buisness and Windows 7 they will have a real problem. Businesses will simply stick with Windows XP and with two strikes they can't afford a third - and I suspect many businesses would even start contemlating moving to open source solutions because MS give the impression of being all marketing and no real delivery.
Another potential loss is market share in terms of volume licensing - why pay for a license for software assurance only to find you can't use it?
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I wonder if Acronis' "convert backup to virtual disk" functionality is already compatible with the new VM. If would be awesome if we could just shift the whole install to a VM on Windows 7 and take our time shifting stuff to the native OS.
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Not necessarily trying to be argumentative Carol but I guess from my own experiences with small businesses and schools, most never bothered to make the switch from 2000 to XP back in the day, rather they simply waited till a PC needed replacing and came with XP anyway.
But these are all very small fish, most would have had volume licensing, but not ones that allowed an OS upgrade (which I wasn't aware existed but don't doubt either). Those types of operations don't tend to change what works, but want to know that when a update comes with a new PC that the old stuff will still work. Thats where XP mode comes into play in my opinion.
Also, who's going to switch to open source if they can't even cope with application incompatibility between XP and Vista.
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Also, who's going to switch to open source if they can't even cope with application incompatibility between XP and Vista.-Eóin
People who are severely fed up with MS, then get severely fed up with Linux and end up switching back because the darn thing is just too much work :P