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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: KynloStephen66515 on September 20, 2014, 07:20 AM

Title: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: KynloStephen66515 on September 20, 2014, 07:20 AM
Just wondering if any of you guys can sing, play guitar, piano...anything musical really!

If so...why not let all all hear you?!  Would love to hear/see some recordings of you guys!

~Stephen
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Renegade on September 20, 2014, 08:35 AM
Heh! I know you sing & all that. You start! :)

I write audio software for musicians, and I play guitar, but I'm out of practice and really suck, so I won't be posting anything. :P
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: KynloStephen66515 on September 20, 2014, 08:57 AM
Heh! I know you sing & all that. You start! :)

I write audio software for musicians, and I play guitar, but I'm out of practice and really suck, so I won't be posting anything. :P

Damnit...I forgot you knew about that haha

Challenge Accepted....with the ONLY recording I have of me on the laptop lol:

https://soundcloud.com/stephen-jones-108/let-her-go

Very rough recording that I never got around to doing properly, so be gentle :D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on September 20, 2014, 04:54 PM
I think this question has been asked on DC before and didn't get many replies, but I KNOW there are more musician types here.  Myself I like to think I play guitar, but I get more caught up in making noise and building things than actually improving my chops, and the things I build are usually doomed to reach the "good enough" stage before I move on to the ne   OOH! SHINY!

40Hz plays bass and has actually played in bands (unlike yours truly).  Superboyac has mentioned he plays Hammond organ and other people actually listen to it.  I don't recall off the top of my head anybody else who's mentioned anything.

I've toyed with doing a Donationcoder-themed metal tune (I have the main riff, a bit of melody and a few snips of lyric), but availability of free time and technical issues have prevented that from coming to fruition.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on September 22, 2014, 01:45 PM
I'm also a bassist, although I haven't been in a band for more than 2 decades now and didn't pick up an instrument for almost 10. Now that I'm hanging around with a lot of musicians again, I've picked it up again and hope to be in another band within the next few months.

Nothing recorded to share though.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on September 22, 2014, 05:54 PM
since you asked nicely...
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tomos on September 23, 2014, 05:33 AM
since you asked nicely...

 :-* wish it were longer
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on September 23, 2014, 03:16 PM
since you asked nicely...

 :-* wish it were longer
Me too!  Thanks.   :(
I'm working on it.
Here's a full one:


Here's a tribute to a friend:
http://aram.dcmembers.com/personal/music/will-i-live-on-for-marc-wetherington/

I think that's all I have.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: IainB on September 23, 2014, 05:14 PM
I felt a bit reluctant/shy about writing this, but decided to come out with it.
Music runs in my family. My brothers and sisters were variously musically and even artistically inclined. Since I was the youngest, I was kind of brought up in music, and I've always been fascinated with music, starting in childhood, where at the age of 5 or 6 I recall I would sit for hours, totally absorbed in an almost trance-like state, playing notes and chords and humming them - playing with the harmonics - using my eldest sister's piano. She later went on to study the piano at the RAM (Royal Academy of Music), but was not good enough to go professional, so used to sometimes teach music.
I have this tendency to sense pattern all around me, and I go into these absorbed states when thinking about or doing something that involves pattern - including things such as, for example, listening to music (as above), listening to or playing the drums, meditating by using a mantra, analysing or solving a problem, washing walls, ski-ing, driving a car, riding a bike, and walking in the hills and mountains. I discovered many years later that autism and Asperger syndrome runs in the family - so that probably explains the fascination with pattern - and depression also apparently runs in the family. These things are apparently genetic and tend not to skip a generation, and are evident in my two eldest children. But these things were generally not properly appreciated or understood in those terms when I was younger. In retrospect, I think my whole family were/are probably what would be called "a bit odd" - i.e., eccentric.

Anyway, it turned out that my instrument was my voice, which my high school music teacher discovered when he was testing us for our singing ability prior to putting us (or not) into the school choir. Much to my music teacher's surprise and disappointment (I was probably one of his most useless and bored students in music theory), he found that I had been given the gift of perfect pitch. This was in North Wales (UK), and at about age 11½ I was conscripted into the choir as a soprano, and we sang at the school a lot - mostly in Welsh - and at the eisteddfod (an annual competitive festival of music and poetry held in Wales, UK), where we represented our school. I started to become proficient in sight-reading music and singing it, and loved listening to a good choir at work - e.g., the Welsh Male Voice Choir singing Ar Hyd Y Nos (All Through The Night) and the Welsh National Anthem - arguably one of the most beautiful anthems in the world. These pieces are always a pleasure to listen to or sing, and spine-tingling stuff, for me.

When I moved on to another secondary (high) school, I joined the choir there, and as I got older my voice dropped rapidly to tenor and then baritone, and then a bit lower, whereupon my vocal scope included first bass parts. By then my music sight-reading was more than adequate for my purposes, and, probably because I had had to become proficient in Welsh (my second language) I developed a natural facility with languages, which meant I could pick up a script written in one of several different European languages (as well as Latin) and sing/pronounce the words correctly whilst mostly understanding them as well (though I would probably be terribly rusty if I tried that today).

By the end of high school I had become quite good on the Spanish guitar, liked to sing and play country folk and western with it most, but was only ever at an elementary level, at best, on the piano. I had also learned to play the bugle at an early age (9 or 10 I think) after my mother bought home a rather beaten-up used copper army bugle from a junk shop, to hang on the wall as decoration. I became quite good with it, and so my eldest brother bought me a rather worn, dented old, but (I thought) beautiful, silver-plated trumpet from a second-hand junk shop as a birthday present.
I had to fix it and get it to work bang on key before it was playable, so there was much poring over the Enc.Britannica and other reference books in music, acoustics, string and wind instruments, and tuning, after which I established that I could also tune a piano. I was obliged to teach myself to play these instruments - never had any formal lessons. I think I really enjoyed the bugle best though. It's a difficult instrument to play but very satisfying to master - bloody well seems to fight you all the time though. It's also portable and can put up with being banged around a bit (dents can be quite easily removed from copper), so I would take it with me in my rucksack on my many expeditions into the Welsh hills. The bugle could belt out a really cracking good sound as you played it, echoing back at me from the surrounding hills and scattering nearby flocks of mountain sheep, which ran about in alarm, having never heard anything quite like it before.
I found the bugle could make a thrilling sound - it could be piercing, stimulating, poignant and quite beautiful - e.g., Reveille, or The Last Post. When played properly, the latter can send shivers down your spine. I'm not sure I ever managed to play it perfectly all the way through though!

It wasn't till I was about 22 or so, when I was lecturing with a large computer company and studying computing, that I accidentally got back into choir-singing. One lunchtime, I heard a manager in a nearby office singing something to himself quietly. Peeking through his open door, I saw that he was reading a score sheet, and I enquired what the music was. It turned out that he was rehearsing a tenor part and was in the LPC (London Philharmonic Choir). I was seriously impressed, because it was/is a highly reputable amateur choir (meaning you don't get paid anything - unlike a professional  - though they would cover your costs for a nominal amount for DJ hire to attend dress rehearsals and performances).
On discovering that I was interested in choral music, he asked me to sing a bit from his score sheet, after which he immediately said I should go for an audition with the choirmaster (who was somebody famous), at the auditions to be held the following week. Overawed by this, I gave him a raft of reasons why I shouldn't go, because I silently thought it farcical to even think that I could be up to the necessary standard for the LPC - and I certainly didn't think I was anywhere near the grade. My mind told me that a musician I was not.

The guy persisted and said that the best judge of my ability would be the choirmaster - not me - and that I could find myself involved in singing some of the most beautiful music created by man, and that I should at least give it a whirl as, "nothing ventured, nothing gained".
I told him that I didn't really want to go back into a choir, and didn't see the need for it, it would require my time, and I was too busy, etc.

He then asked me if I was married (no, I wasn't), if I had a girlfriend (no, I hadn't), and then he said "Well, then you do have the time, and there - right there - is a good reason for joining the LPC!"

My response was, "Eh? How so?"

He replied, "The social life man! We have 50-odd female voices - all emancipated women - about 30 sopranos and 22 altos, the majority of whom are relatively young, unattached, available, and not shy about showing it, and not only do they have beautiful voices but quite a few of them are physically very comely wenches! Furthermore, we have around 25 men/male voices - 15 tenors, 6 first bass, and 5 second bass. Most of them are married. We never have enough male voices! We have to hire in professionals to make up the numbers at our performances. We desperately need more basses, and you'd probably be a first bass voice, and if you could only fart on key you'd probably get through the audition! But look at the ratios and the green field you have with all those women - 52 of them, say 35 potentially unattached and available - and about 4 or 5 unattached blokes for competition, and all the men quite a bit older than you! Why wouldn't you want to be a male singer in that choir?

I always felt that being numerate, and having been trained in accountancy and statistics, I had an advantage when it came to addressing numerical problems, and when he ran those numbers past me, I immediately saw the direction I needed to take.
So that is how I joined the LPC, and I enjoyed it immensely.
Over the approx 3 years I was with them, we did quite a lot of performances. Several were recordings for the BBC, with orchestra and one or two additional choirs (sometimes the BBC's own choirs). We sang at different venues, the two most memorable for me were at:
(a) The Royal Festival Hall: where we came on first (I think it was some of Berlioz's Te Deum), with the second part being a solo performance by a highly acclaimed Japanese lady violinist, so I got to hear her superb performance for free when ordinarily I probably could not have afforded to go.

(b) The Royal Albert Halll: at the last night of the Proms, where we joined with two BBC female choirs, and with several hired/professional male singers to bolster the lower registers, and 2 or 3 professional soloists, and performed Brahms' Deutsches Requiem.
I had only ever watched the Proms on TV before that, and could not really afford tickets even when I lived in London. Being a Last Night, it had a vibrant and exciting atmosphere. The audience really appreciated and enjoyed the music we gave them, and they were out to have fun and made a party out of it, and our conductor played to them magnificently.
The Albert has a huge organ, with some of the biggest organ pipes I have ever seen - the lower registers being the biggest. I was situated close to the lowest register pipes on one side of the pipe array, about 10 feet from the very lowest. In Brahms' Deutsches Requiem, there's a bit where he's descending into Hell and the low register organ pipes come in, almost stepping down to the gloomy Hellish darkness below. The sound from those pipes sends out a bit of a percussion wave towards the listener, but I was close enough that not only could I not hear myself think, but also that I could not stay still, as the vibration was literally jiggling me up and down where I stood. I was grateful when that bit ended and the music became uplifting and ascended with him to Heaven, the sound of the triumphal heavenly trumpets coming from "The Gods" - the uppermost balcony where they had been positioned.

Recordings:
When I emigrated to Aotearoa, I sung with a quite well-rehearsed company choir just at Christmas-times, going round the corporate offices singing Christmas carols and collecting money for charity. I think I still have somewhere a VHS tape of me in this choir, wearing choir-robes, singing in the historic old St Pauls - a lovely old wooden church in Wellington. Being made of wood, it had great acoustics. I also have (or had) a cassette tape of me singing a solo in 1988 - an IT version of Gilbert & Sullivan's The Nightmare Song from Iolanthe. I copied this across to disk as best I could, some years back, but it's got a fair amount of noise and hum in it, though the voice part is still audible, if using headphones.
The Nightmare Song (computer).wav (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9rIby-RfgLNUVY5VEg4WnZDOEE/edit?usp=sharing) (Sorry about the quality.)
The Nightmare Song (computer) lyrics.txt (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9rIby-RfgLNUVY5VEg4WnZDOEE/edit?usp=sharing)

As to music that I like and enjoy singing, it is music that generally could be seen as reflecting something of all that is good about humanity: rhythm, fun, harmony, love, the expression of humour, pathos, happiness, joy, empathy, that speaks of the yearning for freedom from bondage, the yearning for peace and for the ascent of the human spirit, and that shows our ability to climb out - even if only temporarily - of the hideous, irrational religio-political ideological cesspits within which we can sometimes find ourselves imprisoned.
I think sometimes that we do not realise - or maybe we forget - what incredible beings we are and with what amazing potential. For me, music can be an expression - a communication - of this, and a reminder.
Here are two favourite examples - quite different - of such music, from the public domain:
Weird Al Yankovic - Don't Download This Song.mp3 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9rIby-RfgLNOGt0cWNnbEZOQms/edit?usp=sharing)
Remember Me.swf (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9rIby-RfgLNRUotOUtya1EtbkU/edit?usp=sharing)

Update 2014-11-24: Yesterday I watched the start of the NZ v. Wales rugby match on TV, where they sang the national anthems of both teams. I experienced the same spine-tingling sensation again when they sung the Welsh National Anthem, and the crowd joined in. There's nothing quite like it.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on October 27, 2014, 01:14 PM
I'm a wannabe bassist.  Actually, I'm finding I'm not that bad at all...given a lead sheet and a run-through or two, I can hold up my part of a song.

I've not really been part of a "band" but for a while I did jam with a couple of guys.  We even recorded (sucky recordings) some of our jam sessions.  That was fun.  I wish I could find a drummer to just jam with again.

About once per month, I play for my church "backup team" so the "main team" gets a day off.  When the "main team" bassist can't make it, I get to fill in there, too.  Which is how I found out that I'm pretty good at "playing cold".  Because one day he ddin't show up, and they said "go get your bass" - and I did, and played well without any other prep or practice.

It's nice to feel good about my skillz. :)

I kind of keep an online diary thingy.  Here's my "Music" topic:

http://thegleep.com/index.php?title=Category:Music

... and this page has links to the (pretty ugly, really) recordings of our practice sessions:

http://thegleep.com/index.php?title=Free_Root_Beer

Anyone in SLC, Utah want to meet up to jam?  Anyone want to do online collaboration?  I'm really REALLY itching for someone to explore musicality with!  (And I've got MUCH better recording equipment now!!!)

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on October 27, 2014, 01:49 PM
There's a saying that there's a time and place for everything. In my case, the time was the mid 70s and the place was Boston/Cambridge MA. Although I've done sessions, sat in, or just played with a lot of people since then, I haven't gone at it hammer & tongs (i.e. that professionally) since.

My band's name was Maelstrom ("High-Energy Rock!"). Your classic rock quintet: two guitars (Gibson SG + Fender Telecaster), percussion (Rodgers), bass (Gibson L9S/Fender Jazz), and vocals (1 lead/2 harmony). We were an "all original" rock band trying to get signed at the dawn of the disco error era. Two guesses how far that went despite having a good local following.  :wallbash:

Our favorite venue was the now legendary and sadly departed Rathskeller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rathskeller) (known as "The Rat") on "Comm Ave." in Boston.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
This is sorta what you'd see at The Rat. Pretty cute, huh? And miniskirts in the dead of Boston's winter? Boy, those were the days!

The Rat was the quintessential "rock dive" bar. Sorta of like Boston's answer to CBGB's which opened one year earlier in 1973. Great music. Great bands. And an unique cast of 'characters' out in the audience. I recently discovered my band was listed on The Rat's Wikipedia page under "Notable Acts." Not too shabby considering some of the bands on that list went on to real fame and fortune. :mrgreen:

Sorry I don't have any pictures, videos, or recordings to share. This was before the advent of digital. Recordings were mostly done in a $$$ recording studio on reel-to-reel and then dubbed to 30 min cassettes or mastered to 45 RPM vinyl. Very expensive in those days. Video was totally beyond the financial resources of most groups. About the only way you'd ever score a video was if you appeared on some local public TV station. (No DVDs, MP4s, VHS or Betamax cartridges for playback yet either. If you had a video it was on a studio grade tape reel.) And all (if any) pictures of us probably went out the door with the girlfriends of the band members after we (not very cordially) ended our musical relationship. :nono2: :rip:

Too bad. It was a really good little group. Haven't done anything I've enjoyed that much since. Sniff! :eusa_boohoo:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on November 21, 2014, 06:23 PM
I'm musical in the sense of building guitars (acoustic and electric) and effects pedals, mainly for my just-turned-15 year old son, who's somewhat of a prodigy musician. I found it has been far easier on the budget to use my woodworking skills to supply him with the different guitar types he needs, and it rolled me out of retirement when musicians who've worked with him began asking if I'd build them custom instruments.

My electrical experience suffices for coming up with different wirings for the pickups, but anyone who has ideas along the workings of stomp boxes, I can build them off of a schematic or  parts list, not much past there. 
My son's performing next month in a Lynyrd Skynyrd/Allman Brothers tribute the second month of December.
You would NOT want me to sing, though!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 21, 2014, 08:00 PM
I found it has been far easier on the budget to use my woodworking skills to supply him with the different guitar types he needs

Awesome! How about some pix and technical details? I've done some building myself and I'm always interested in what fellow guitar makers are doing. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: bit on November 22, 2014, 11:43 PM
There's a saying that there's a time and place for everything. In my case, the time was the mid 70s and the place was Boston/Cambridge MA. Although I've done sessions, sat in, or just played with a lot of people since then, I haven't gone at it hammer & tongs (i.e. that professionally) since.

My band's name was Maelstrom ("High-Energy Rock!"). Your classic rock quintet: two guitars (Gibson SG + Fender Telecaster), percussion (Rodgers), bass (Gibson L9S/Fender Jazz), and vocals (1 lead/2 harmony). We were an "all original" rock band trying to get signed at the dawn of the disco error era. Two guesses how far that went despite having a good local following.  :wallbash:

Our favorite venue was the now legendary and sadly departed Rathskeller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rathskeller) (known as "The Rat") on "Comm Ave." in Boston.
 (see attachment in previous post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=39027.msg367697#msg367697))This is sorta what you'd see at The Rat. Pretty cute, huh? And miniskirts in the dead of Boston's winter? Boy, those were the days!

The Rat was the quintessential "rock dive" bar. Sorta of like Boston's answer to CBGB's which opened one year earlier in 1973. Great music. Great bands. And an unique cast of 'characters' out in the audience. I recently discovered my band was listed on The Rat's Wikipedia page under "Notable Acts." Not too shabby considering some of the bands on that list went on to real fame and fortune. :mrgreen:

Sorry I don't have any pictures, videos, or recordings to share. This was before the advent of digital. Recordings were mostly done in a $$$ recording studio on reel-to-reel and then dubbed to 30 min cassettes or mastered to 45 RPM vinyl. Very expensive in those days. Video was totally beyond the financial resources of most groups. About the only way you'd ever score a video was if you appeared on some local public TV station. (No DVDs, MP4s, VHS or Betamax cartridges for playback yet either. If you had a video it was on a studio grade tape reel.) And all (if any) pictures of us probably went out the door with the girlfriends of the band members after we (not very cordially) ended our musical relationship. :nono2: :rip:

Too bad. It was a really good little group. Haven't done anything I've enjoyed that much since. Sniff! :eusa_boohoo:
Once a rocker, always a rocker.  :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 23, 2014, 07:48 AM
Once a rocker, always a rocker.  :)

Pretty much. (For better or worse!) ;D :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Renegade on November 23, 2014, 09:01 AM
What's funny now is that now if you can't play a few riffs from AC/DC or Metallica, you're probably not much of a musician, which is a far cry from when some of us were younger (and some of us predate them too!). :D

Like, FFS... Seek & Destroy on flute!!!



Really? If flutists know that, nobody else has an excuse. :P (It's a darn fun song to play.)

If that's not enough, Angel of Death on banjo!



THAT is seriously a video worth watching!

What was "music" that you could learn when I was a kid has shifted a lot.

However, I must admit, I couldn't find anything cool on the French horn... :P

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on November 23, 2014, 09:33 AM
I guess I'll say something :)

Vocally, I cross all genres- but for piano and guitar, I am firmly in the Classical genre- for piano, that means Baroque, High Classical, Romantic, and Early.  For Guitar, that encompasses Renaissance and Baroque, with *some* Spanish.  I just can't seem to get a handle on more modern music, no matter how much I try.

For the longest time I had a Steinway upright passed down from my great grandmother, to my grandmother, to my father, to me, so it was definitely getting long in the tooth, and when I moved out of my mother's house had to leave it there.  It is still there... but for the moment only.  I think, not being able to transport it economically, it is going to go to my sister.  Since then, I've moved to digital, and have a mid-range Yamaha DGX-505.  It's functional, but I miss the real keys and tone of the steinway.  *sigh*

As far as my current guitar(s), I have a Taylor T5-C1 with a red edgeburst (bought back in the days when I could afford such things), and a 60th anniversary Fender Strat American Standard (bought new- again when I could afford such things).  I have a few others, but those are my two of note that I actually use.  I also have and play the trombone... but I'm honest enough to admit that I'm not exceptionally good- still have it from the marching band years.  I wanted to play the sax, and instead played the trombone, and so never really got into it.

As far as career-wise, it was going well; my teachers were very well reknown, and my family supported me wholesale.  But, as the venues got larger, and the strangers more critical- I realized that I have (or I developed) paralyzing stage fright.  I remember my first time- I was playing for an reasonably moderate sized auditorium- about 500 people or so... The pieces I knew like the back of my hand and weren't especially challenging- Solfegietto and Moonlight Sonata.  Halfway through the first piece, my right leg started shaking so bad I couldn't sustain.  Not too much of a loss in that piece, but coming to Moonlight Sonata...

I tried and tried (and truthfully... still try) to overcome it.  But no matter how much I try and/or play- it creates physical effects in me to play before audiences if I have the time to contemplate it.  If I play for myself, I get lost in it... and the watchers don't matter.  But you have to be able to do it all the time, any time to make a career of any sort.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 23, 2014, 11:12 AM
However, I must admit, I couldn't find anything cool on the French horn... :P

No? How about Entwhistle's french horn on the Overture of Tommy? Or in Dr. Jimmy and Mr. Jim from Quadrophrenia?

For those too young to know or remember:



Note: lyrics NSFW

BTW - which french horn? There are a few different (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te33fOl_2cw) types.

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Renegade on November 23, 2014, 06:27 PM
BTW - which french horn? There are a few different (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te33fOl_2cw) types.

Sigh... Here's my French horn imitation... I give up. :P
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on November 24, 2014, 12:04 PM
My son's collection started with a 12 string telecaster I built from a hodgepodge of parts, which I fell back on my car painting days of the late 70's/early 80's and painted Ford Mustang red. I put a lipstick pickup in the bridge position and a hot Texas wound pickup in the neck. From there, we restored and rewired a number of guitars over the next 2-3 years, then I built him a strat wired with 6 DPDT switches to turn on/off each pickup separately and put in and out of phase like Queen's guitarist Brian May. I even hunted down a set of pickups with the same fat poles and specs as May's. That's when instructors, friends, and musicians began asking if I'd build guitars for them.
Just this Summer, my family and friends suggested I put my name on my guitars, so my hobby is now a VERY small business  I built a strat style guitar with a Fender TBX (treble bass expander) and an Atrec band control unit. The flawed fender tremolo was replaced with a Stetsbar unit. I have pics of that guitar.

I'm about 70% done with a PJ style bass with active pickups and a through the body bridge. I've dyed its swamp ash black, highlighted the grain with a silver powder suspension, and am French polishing the body now. The rosewood neck I've sealed in lacquer like Rickenbacker does. On deck for future contracted builds I've got a 50's tele style with the body made from a combination of maple, Honduran mahogany, and Peruvian walnut, and a few builds whenever no contracted work is in the making like an arch top with two TV Jones HBs and a barncaster from reclaimed pine that I intend to partially burn before starting.
I'm a retired cop, and this is far more relaxing than chasing bad guys!

That said, I should use this forum to see if anyone could whip out a couple of form apps or files, like an inventory list that I could use to see what it cost me, as well as a build sheet that I could spec the entire build out to provide an estimate sheet and an itemized bill of sale. I may do well as a luthier, but I rather suck at creating anything on my PC or my iPhone. (sorry it took so long to post this, have been away from my desktop for a while now...)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 24, 2014, 12:25 PM
@tjbray - very cool. Also nice to see you have some contract work.

One place you might want to look at is Joe Gore's Tonefiend website.

Joe was one of Tom Waite's guitarists and is also a columnist for Premier Guitar magazine. He's a customization and experimental mod/builder. Very interesting stuff. He has incredible chops and a talent for using a looper - so his demos are also impressive - to say nothing of funny since he uses a non-speaking deadpan in all of them. He freely shares most of what he does on his site. Go check it out. Link here.

He also has a channel on YouTube to host his videos. Here's an sample of some of what you can expect:





 :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on November 25, 2014, 10:37 PM
Thanks, 40!  It's probably more due to my methods being slower than using lacquer, but I'm not complaining. Premier Guitar is my favorite magazine, the only one I pay for a hard copy subscription.  I'll definitely give Joe's YouTube and tonefiend site some long looks, thanks.  I like Wait' s music, love the blues along with good old classic rock.

I'll throw some pics up here as I finish my builds, if you're interested. The tele is going to be really cool, I'm hoping.  I was just in the shop working on the bass body,  which I'm hoping to finish up in 3-3 weeks. 

Again, thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on November 26, 2014, 11:35 AM
Two things:

* I am in the middle of "recovering" a PJ bass I bought at a pawn shop; This is my first woodworking project, and I think I'm doing okay with it.  But I could use advice on how to make it less "dentable".  I want to show the wood grain, instead of just painting it.  So that means some kind of clear-coat.  What would you suggest?

* I'm a software developer - playing around with "hybrid" (web-based + mobile) applications.  I could probably whip something up for you in fairly short order...I just need some really clear specs.  If you're looking, hit me up (my email at yahoo and bigfoot.com are the same as my login here).

My son's collection started with a 12 string telecaster I built from a hodgepodge of parts, which I fell back on my car painting days of the late 70's/early 80's and painted Ford Mustang red. I put a lipstick pickup in the bridge position and a hot Texas wound pickup in the neck. From there, we restored and rewired a number of guitars over the next 2-3 years, then I built him a strat wired with 6 DPDT switches to turn on/off each pickup separately and put in and out of phase like Queen's guitarist Brian May. I even hunted down a set of pickups with the same fat poles and specs as May's. That's when instructors, friends, and musicians began asking if I'd build guitars for them.
Just this Summer, my family and friends suggested I put my name on my guitars, so my hobby is now a VERY small business  I built a strat style guitar with a Fender TBX (treble bass expander) and an Atrec band control unit. The flawed fender tremolo was replaced with a Stetsbar unit. I have pics of that guitar.

I'm about 70% done with a PJ style bass with active pickups and a through the body bridge. I've dyed its swamp ash black, highlighted the grain with a silver powder suspension, and am French polishing the body now. The rosewood neck I've sealed in lacquer like Rickenbacker does. On deck for future contracted builds I've got a 50's tele style with the body made from a combination of maple, Honduran mahogany, and Peruvian walnut, and a few builds whenever no contracted work is in the making like an arch top with two TV Jones HBs and a barncaster from reclaimed pine that I intend to partially burn before starting.
I'm a retired cop, and this is far more relaxing than chasing bad guys!

That said, I should use this forum to see if anyone could whip out a couple of form apps or files, like an inventory list that I could use to see what it cost me, as well as a build sheet that I could spec the entire build out to provide an estimate sheet and an itemized bill of sale. I may do well as a luthier, but I rather suck at creating anything on my PC or my iPhone. (sorry it took so long to post this, have been away from my desktop for a while now...)

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on November 26, 2014, 12:02 PM
Hi Gleep!

If you want high gloss, I would go with something like Arm-r-Seal, made by General Finishes. It will give you a super high gloss shine, and it's a tough finish, protecting your wood from liquids. Underneath that, you can level any deformities with a de-waxed shellac. You can use amber or clear to add some warmth to the wood. With both shellac and the Arm-R-Seal, they can be applied with a rag or brush. Great for new woodworkers.

If you plan on keeping your guitar, and don't plan on gigging with it, the shellac can give you an awesome finish alone, but beer, the bane of instruments, can mar the finish. The best thing about shellac is in de-waxed form, it is water resistant, but even if somebody does scratch or mar your guitar, shellac coats applied over old coats melts right into the old finish, making repairs easy.

I have used lacquer in the beginning of my restorations and builds, but have come to prefer shellac and varnish finishes for their look, and oil finishes like Tru oil just doesn't harden enough.

I'm biased, but that's the best part of opinions!

I'll get with you after the holidays regarding the program/app I'm hoping can be made, thanks!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 26, 2014, 01:54 PM
@theGleep:

re: Bass- Depends on how much work you want to make for yourself. The urethane based finishes Fender was big on up till recently are sturdy. But they're thick and many people (myself included) think it adversely affects the tone of the instrument.

--------------------------------------------------------------

For those who don't know what we're talking about:

The two most traditional/recommended finishes for guitars are either a nitrocellulose lacquer or a shellac-based finish called French polish.

Nitrocellulose lacquer is very toxic so you'll need to be very careful with ventilation if you go that route. Nitrocellulose lacquer also doesn't like water or drinks being spilled on it. You will get those water spots and damage that our mothers always used to be worried about with their good furniture. It can also chip easily if you bully it. That said, lacquer is relatively easy to refinish if it ever comes to that. It looks gorgeous and it seems to have a positive effect on the sound - although I don't think any real scientific study was ever done to support that. So take that assertion with a grain of salt.

Time was when you wanted a spray gun to apply lacquer. Some of the big guitar suppliers (StewMac, Luthier Mercantile, et al) now carry excellent lacquers in a spray can that actually work quite well. If you're only doing one offs (as opposed to running a boutique manufacturing operation) these aerosol cans are a lot more convenient and economical that investing in a compressor and a sprayer. You can also hand apply lacquer with a brush. But it will make a  lot more work for you when it comes to sanding and polishing it out.

For lacquer finishing a guitar, check out Will Kelly's videos on YouTube. His channel is here (https://www.youtube.com/user/535C3/videos).

French polish is the traditional finish used on fine string instruments such as violins and classical guitars. It's an easy but tedious process that involves applying and sanding multiple thinly applied layers of shellac. Much less toxic than lacquer. And possibly more sturdy since shellac finishes have more flex than a lacquer finish does. Easiest to repair if needed. But like lacquer, it doesn't care for water hitting it.

There's a really good detailed 6-part tutorial on YouTube that will walk you through the whole process. Find the beginning here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rJHlndf1mw&list=PL5EE31A059224EF92). And another good tutorial here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7aXBs2fJgw). I'd watch both if anybody is thinking they want to take a stab at it.

-----------------------------------

@theGleep - Don't know if this answers your question since neither French polish nor nitrocellulose lacquer is more "dent proof" than what's already on your bass. If anything, they're more fragile. But they are great finishes, And they're what gets applied to better quality instruments.

StewMac also has a pretty useful channel with loads of good advice, how-tos, and tips for builders and repairers. Find that here (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=StewMac).

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Luck! :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on November 26, 2014, 03:20 PM
@40hz:  Thanks for the info.  There is *one* thing I wanted to comment on..."more dent-proof than what's already on your bass"?  Ummmm...I already got rid of that...it's pretty easy to dent, now!  (And I've got some interesting "character" added to the wood from trying three different stripping techniques...and learning how to properly use a heat gun.:)

@tjbray: Arm-r-seal, eh?  I'll look into that.  I don't know, yet, what I'll do with the finished product.  If I really like it, it'll probably become my "practice bass".  If not so much, I'll keep it at my church to be the "emergency bass".  I suppose that either situation would allow for a shellac-only option.  And if I liked it enough to really get into gigging with it (...*and* I actually did any gigging! :), then I could do a touch-up and then arm-r-seal it.

Sounds like I have a plan for moving forward!

Oh...I already bought some stuff from Home Depot; minwax wood preparation and some kind of stain ... but I don't remember exact details on them.  Does that ring any scarey alarm bells with you?

...and I'll be looking forward to working out specs for an app.  I like having a specific goal when I'm learning new things.  It'll be great to have something I know will be useful before I even start with it.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on November 26, 2014, 04:32 PM
@theGleep:  I know Rockler carries the General Finishes line (I'm fortunate to live in the greater Cincinnati area, which has a Rockler store, but they have a website as well).  De-waxed shellac has excellent adhesion properties, so you can use it over oil or water based stain, so you won't have problems using it with the stain. Be sure that you've lifted the grain of the wood by wiping the bare wood with a rag dampened with water or denatured alcohol (if you want it to dry faster), allowing it to completely dry, and lightly sanding it with 220 sandpaper. Do this about 3 times, also only handle the wood with latex or rubber gloves to keep the oils in your skin from affecting your stain coverage. Some woods take stain great, others are horrible.
I'm new at posting advice, so excuse my jumping around. I wanted to advise you to be sure you use DE-WAXED shellac--it's properties for hardness, shine, water repellence, and adhesion make it far more guitar-friendly!  As for wood preparation, Zinssler has a dewaxed version of their shellac, which is a wood prep. It may be what is in the Minwax wood prep as well.

The only fault you will find with shellac is, once it is in liquid form, it has a definitive shelf life. Commercial shellac cans should have a date on them, either when it was made or an expiration. I prefer buying shellac flakes and preparing about 16 ounces at a time, which I use up long before it begins to go bad. Rockler.com sells the flakes as well, and YouTube has great videos covering all phases of shellacking from prep to finish.

My experiences with Minwax has varied, and  as I used it at the start of my woodworking experience, I can just as easily blame my knowledge base at the time as I could the product. It's been so long since I've used their products I cannot give a fair evaluation.  I'll leave that to the many great advisors here.

Hats off to 40Hz as well, I can tell he has been helping pass information on to forum users for quite some time. Maybe in time mine will be laid out and as clear as his!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 28, 2014, 11:04 AM
Hats off to 40Hz as well, I can tell he has been helping pass information on to forum users for quite some time. Maybe in time mine will be laid out and as clear as his!

Thank you even though long time readers of my blather may disagree with you about how clear I am when posting. I tend to run on :-[. And I'm not always organized. :-[

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 28, 2014, 02:12 PM
@tjbray/theGleep - One last bit on building guitars...

A gent by the name of Roger Placer built a guitar for himself and did up and demoed a wiring scheme for two humbuckers that basically covers every useful switching combo possible with a pair of split-coil humpups. Well worth a listen.



You can get a copy of the schematic here (http://www.rogerplacer.com/guitars/img/RPSpecialWiring.jpg).

If I were to do that. I'd probably also install a varitone (http://www.seymourduncan.com/tonefiend/guitar/a-modern-vari-tone-alternative/) (or capacitor selector) circuit since I always prefer some form of tone control be installed on an instrument. You can build one or buy (http://www.stellartone.com/index.asp) one. However, varitones are pretty simple devices - and building your own gives you complete control over which capacitor values and types you want to use. As you probably know, tone cap selection is a fetish that borders on religious mania with some guitarists. ;D

Ok, that's it from me for now,
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on November 28, 2014, 06:00 PM
@tjbray: So...I got home and took a look and what I've got is "wood stain".  How does that impact your advice?

@40hz: I'm gonna have to add that to my schematic collection.  I've got a strat that I did the Brian May treatment to, and I was REALLY surprised at the variety of tone.  Unfortunately, I used metal toggle switches - the kind that stick up about an inch?  Yeah...knuckle barking every time I get too excited.

So - I've bought the hardware to re-do it with low-profile black switches instead...but I have no idea when I'll get around to redoing it.. :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 28, 2014, 08:12 PM
@40hz: I'm gonna have to add that to my schematic collection.  I've got a strat that I did the Brian May treatment to, and I was REALLY surprised at the variety of tone.  Unfortunately, I used metal toggle switches - the kind that stick up about an inch?  Yeah...knuckle barking every time I get too excited.

So - I've bought the hardware to re-do it with low-profile black switches instead...but I have no idea when I'll get around to redoing it.. :)


Too bad you already bought everything. Guitar Fetish has BM wiring kits for the Strat (http://www.guitarfetish.com/BHM-Style-Wiring-Kits_c_226.html) that includes a precut pickguard for <$40. (Cutting rectangular holes in a pickguard for slideswitches can be a real PITA unless you have a better tool collection than I do.) I don't know anybody just selling the pickguard.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on November 30, 2014, 08:57 AM
@TheGleep: Yhanks for the link, I'll definitely check it out. So far, I've wired a strat a la Clapton, Brian  May, and David Gilmour.  I have a collection of wiring schematics for Les Pauls as well, but haven't really messed with them yet, so I'll definitely give it a look. I'm considering a setup for my son's, which he plays so much I need to re-fret soon (stainless this time), so I'm going to revamp all the guts and give him a Jimmy Page model.

The stain won't be a problem. Your main worry lies in the wood type. If it's a genuine Fender, most likely its alder, which can take stain directly, but doesn't have much drama in it's pattern. If you can post a pic, I can take a stab at guessing.

I'm a big fan of Guitar Fetish as well. Their True Coil pickups are in a couple of my builds. The bass I'm building is getting their Redactive EQ-switchable active pickups. This is my first foray into active pickups.
Another quality pickup maker is ToneRider. Great sound can be had without great cost.

Gotta get to church! Enjoy the last day of Thanksgiving weekend!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 30, 2014, 11:18 AM
^You might also want to check out Precision Guitar Kits (http://buy.precisionguitarkits.com/product-category/guitars/custom-make-your-guitar). They sell finished and unfinished necks, bodies, and complete kits. (No bass components unfortunately) Their quality is superb. Their neck routes are the most precise I've ever seen. And they're very competitively priced.

They also offer single-piece (as in not laminated) T & S style bodies in alder or swamp ash along with some other tonewood choices depending on the body style. Those run at a premium of about $100 over a two-piece body in the same wood. But if you're looking to create something you simply can't get elsewhere, these are the folks you want to do business with. AFAIK, nobody else is offering single piece Fender type bodies but them. They also have Gibson-style bodies - including carved top models. (That double cutaway LP Junior is very tempting!)

Truth is, you won't really save any money scratch building your own from new parts any more. Even if you value your time at two bucks an hour. :mrgreen: But you will be able to build something unique that was done your way.

And for some of us, the journey is as much a reward as the arrival.

------------------------------------

Note: IMO Fender's Squire Classic Vibe series sets the absolute standard for just how great a guitar you can buy for a bargain price . For less than half the price of the parts you would need, Squire will sell you a finished instrument that you can build a musical career around. Yes, they're that good! :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on November 30, 2014, 08:16 PM
I'd be happy if I could find what I want for relatively cheap, whether it's off the shelf or as a kit. Unfortunately, if you 32-inch scale basses are fairly rare to begin with.  Make it a lefty J-bass witha P-bass nut width and you might as well be looking for Bigfoot hanging out with the Loch Ness Monster.

The sad thing is it's my own damn fault I have this problem to begin with. Although I am technically left handed, I  actually have a high degree of cross dominance. That means I can generally learn things either left or right handed with equal ease. Also, I had already been playing cello for 7 years before I was given a right handed bass.  Being young and foolish - and also a fan of both Paul McCartney and Jimi Hendrix, I chose to have it restrung and play lefty instead. Whenever I'm shopping for a bass I find myself wanting to go back in time and kick my ass for that.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 01, 2014, 08:42 AM
@tjbray: It's an Ibanez ?GSK?

I kept thinking I'd get a picture during the weekend, but never got around to it.

Good to know I'm ok with the stain, thanks!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 01, 2014, 09:22 AM
@Vurbal - that 32" scale is the tough part.

The only affordable bass I know that's currently available with that is the Schecter Prowler SGR (http://www.amazon.com/Schecter-Prowler-4-string-32-Inch-Metallic/dp/B009P15KW8). Unfortunately, no lefty model AFAIK. And Schecter is Schecter. You like em' or ya don't. I find their basses workmanlike and generally well made. But their tonal qualities are bland and colorless AFAIC. More discerning listeners than me may think (or imagine ::)) they sound otherwise. ;)

If you're ever committed I'd suggest a nice afffordable lefty Squire bass fitted with a custom neck you could order from Warmouth. Warmouth necks can be fairly inexpensive if you don't go overboard with options that can quickly add up.

I just spec'ed a 32" unfinished maple left-handed P-Bass style (i.e. SSB Warhead) with GraphTech nut and rosewood fingerboard with cream dot top and side inlays. It came to $210, which is awfully reasonable for a less common scale neck. I'd probably order it without mounting holes however since I don't know if a Squire's bolts line up exactly with Fender's layout. At the very least I'd ask first. The "Made in China" models seem to line up just fine. But the "Hecho en México" models don't quite always. At least in my experience. YMMV.

Here's the spec
Specifications
Style: SSB Warhead
Construction: Short Scale Bass
Scale: 32"
Neck Wood:
$180.00 USD

    Shaft Wood: Maple
    Fingerboard Wood: Indian Rosewood

Stiffening Rods:
+ $0.00
Orientation: Left Handed
+ $0.00
Nut Width: 1 1/2"
+ $0.00
Back Shape: C-Shape
+ $0.00
Radius: Straight 10"
+ $0.00
# of Frets: 21
+ $0.00
Fret Size: 6105
+ $0.00
Tuner Ream: BML Lite (17mm)
+ $0.00
Inlays:
+ $0.00

    Inlays: Cream Face Dots
    Side Dots: White Side Dots

Pre-Cut Installed String Nut: GraphTech White TUSQ XL - Standard Nut
+ $30.00
Mounting Holes: Standard 4 Bolt
+ $0.00
Finish: No Finish
+ $0.00
Price: $210.00




Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 01, 2014, 11:10 AM
I certainly have no problem with Schecters, or any number of other brands a lot of musicians turn their noses up at. Actually, the bass I bought when I decided to start playing again is an ultra cheap, but also workmanlike,  SX J-bass. Except for having the standard 1.5" jazz nut, it's exactly what I listed in my last post.

Unfortunately SX basses don't have the same pocket dimensions as a Fender or else I'd probably look into just replacing the nec. If I go that route, and I probably will eventually, a Squier is almost certainly what I'll start from. However, I'll probably be looking at a neck from USA Custom Guitars since Warmoth's 32" scale necks are all designed for 1.5" nuts.

Alternatively, I may get lucky and find a 32" scale lefty SX P-Bass before then. Even new it would be well worth the (sub $200) price just for the neck
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 01, 2014, 01:20 PM
I certainly have no problem with Schecters, or any number of other brands a lot of musicians turn their noses up at. Actually, the bass I bought when I decided to start playing again is an ultra cheap, but also workmanlike,  SX J-bass. Except for having the standard 1.5" jazz nut, it's exactly what I listed in my last post.

I'll agree with you 100% there. I personally happen to like inexpensive odd-brand guitars and basses. Especially imports from China.

I have expensive Fender, Gibson. Spector, and Godin basses. I've owned basses by Alembic :-*, Yamaha, and almost every other major brand. And I also currently own inexpensive (or dirt cheap) Cort, Epiphone, Memphis, and Baltimore basses. They all play and sound great.

The biggest surprise was the Baltimore. I bought it on a whim for $49 from my local Guitar Center. I originally intended rout a 'swimming pool' in the middle and use it as a 'lab rat' for testing out various pickups and wiring schemes. But when I got it home I soon discovered the neck was so spot on - and the fit and finish so flawless - that I just dropped in a better (but equally inexpensive) set of pickups from Guitar Fetish, did some very minor setup work, and now use it regularly just the way it is. It has a better neck and fret job than some $1K+ USA Fender basses I've tried out recently. And it has a really cool (to my eyes) retro/Nippon look. I keep getting asked where I got it. Everybody who's tried it loves it.

Looks like this - and sorry for the rotated image. (What is it with these iPhone cameras?) :

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

You can't really tell from the picture, but it's candy apple red metallic. I understand they no longer make that insane pickguard and have since gone over to a standard P-Bass design. Too bad!

Truth is, with so much automated NC manufacturing these days the tolerances, even on a cheap solid body, are so good that the adage: Cheap bass + quality replacement pickups + Burns or Clarostat replacement pots = awesome instrument. I'd throw in a replacement bridge and/or tone cap (if needed) to that formula and "Bob's yer uncle."

I've never played an SX bass. But bassists I know and respect who have tried one have nothing but good things to say about them. Knowing me, I'll probably end up owning one sooner or later. I have it on good authority that the SX Ursa Jr. short scale series makes an excellent base for a picolo bass mod.

Yeah...knowing me...sooner or later.... ;D :Thmbsup:

------------------------------------------------

P.S. I didn't know USA Custom did 32" necks. I though they only did "standard" scale lengths. Good to know. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 01, 2014, 03:39 PM
I'll say this for the 2 SX basses I've played - mine and my daughter's Ursa Jr P-Bass. The pickups are much better than you get on most ultra cheap models. They're certainly a big step up from what you get in any Squier. In fact, every account I've read about people swapping the Jazz pickups out for standard Fender MIA versions concludes the difference is in character,  rather than quality. If you prefer some of the third party alternatives, that's obviously a different story.

I do plan to swap out the tuners and bridge eventually, although they're good enough that it's not a high priority. However, there is a tiny bit of neck dive which appropriate upgrades should take care of. What it does need badly is new pots/jack/wiring and proper cavity grounding.

The one thing that did shock me when I first picked it up was the truss rod. SX basses are notorious for needing extensive setup, but the truss rod on mine had to be tightened almost 2 1/2 turns. It could have been worse, though. At least you don't have to take the neck off to reach the truss rod nut, like on some cheap instruments.

In any case, for a little over $200 shipped, and including a generic,  but perfectly adequate, hard case, I have no complaints.

I was also fortunate to find a nice deal on a decent amp. For less than $250 I got an 80's Trace Elliot AH150 SMC GP7 and a 4x10 Hartke aluminum cone driver. A lot of people don't care for the TE sound, but I find the mid boosting Pre Shape to be nice for rounding out the J-Bass sound. The cab is an old Transporter, so not exactly what I'd prefer, but good enough to get me through until I can upgrade.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 01, 2014, 03:51 PM
P.S. I didn't know USA Custom did 32" necks. I though they only did "standard" scale lengths. Good to know. :Thmbsup:
-40hz link=topic=39027.msg370379#msg370[quote author=40hz (December 01, 2014, 01:20 PM)

You should probably take that with a grain or 3 of salt. I've been told they have 32" necks,but I've avoided looking for myself so I don't buy something i can't afford and face my wife's fury.

I do know their Fender compatible bodies and necks are lighter than the Warmoth equivalents. Apparently Fender requires licensees to make them thicker than the Fender originals, presumably to give themselves a perceived quality advantage. Since USACG makes knock offs instead of licensed replacements, they're not bound by those anti-competitive terms.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 01, 2014, 04:54 PM
Apparently Fender requires licensees to make them thicker than the Fender originals, presumably to give themselves a perceived quality advantage.

Hadn't heard that one before.

Hmm... Considering you can specify the wood, fingerboard, neck shape, neck contour, binding, fret type,# frets, nut type, etc. on a Warmouth bass neck - and about two or three times many options on a guitar neck - I don't really see that allegation holding up very well. But I could be wrong.

Fender also isn't too gung-ho about selling replacement wood parts, although they do a pretty brisk trade in replacement pickups these days. Fender is first and foremost an instrument company. Not a parts supplier. So I don't see where the replacement neck businesses would be seen as a threat by them. Especially now that their Squire line has mostly removed the price justification for Partscasters and Frankenstrats. You can get a very nice finished instrument (with warranty) from Squire for far less than you would pay to build something as good or better. Squires have become good enough that many pros are now using them as their main instrument. I'd certainty strongly consider buying a Squire before I built something these days. Especially if I just wanted a mainstream type of guitar like a Strat, Tele, or P/J-Bass with standard specs.

When you consider 90% of the sound of an electric is directly provided by the pickups and tone stack, unless you have something extremely specific in mind sound-wise, any customization beyond the electronic components is a fairly good illustration of the law of diminishing returns. And outside of the recording studio, it's doubtful how much of that last 10% will even be audible to the average listener. In a 'live sound' venue I'd wager none of it would be. Even to most musicians.

Just my :two: anyway. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 01, 2014, 05:19 PM
I don't know that it's the replacement parts business so much as concern about parts builds competing with their stupidly overpriced high end models. Let's face it,the reason people like us don't buy those high margin basses is exactly what you mentioned about the diminishing returns of non-electronics upgrades. The guy who buys a $2000 - $3000 Fender or Gibson isn't considering a DIY Build. Unless it gets cheap enough for small luthier shops to compete on finished instrument prices - and it isn't close - those parts aren't their competition.

I saw some specific numbers for Warmoth's P-Bass body vs USACG's Pea Bass discussed on the TalkBass forum. A guitarist friend of mine we who has bought Strat parts from both said it was the same for guitars. Of course both could be full of it and I wouldn't know better without more research than I've ever bothered to do.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 01, 2014, 08:43 PM
I wouldn't know better without more research than I've ever bothered to do.

Hardly worth it IMHO. I doubt either of us really care one way or the other. ;D

The guy who buys a $2000 - $3000 Fender or Gibson isn't considering a DIY Build.

Good point. I always found it interesting that the semi-serious and amateurs always owned those high-end Gibsons or the more exotic 'new' brands with all the fancy inlays, etc. whereas the pros all seem to use stock Fenders or Gibson studio models. Same with amps. The pros use old-school Fender Twin/Reverb/Vibrolux/Princetons or Vox AC-30s or Marshalls or the less expensive Orange amps. The semi/amis all get into the Mesa Boogies or those other $2K+ boutique amps.

The high-end market is definitely the preserve of the Saturday "go to the local jam night" crowd. Whereas most of the pros (who know they can get their sound out of whatever they're playing) try to spend as little as possible and try not to take anything out that they'll be too upset about having stolen. Because sooner or later it will. The only time they seem to show up with something really expensive is when they have an endorsement deal with some manufacturer. And half the time that endorsement guitar or amp sits on the stage like some débutante, prominently displayed, but completely untouched all night long. Because it's only there (at most) as a spare.  ;D ;D ;D

Ah me...the things we do for love! 8)
 
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on December 01, 2014, 09:09 PM
The semi/amis all get into the Mesa Boogies or those other $2K+ boutique amps.

HEY, hey, there now!!  I have quite a soft spot for those old Mesas (right around the Mark IIc era) and if I owned one (I was 23 and had to choose between THAT AMP or eating for a week...  I was hungry... sue me.) it would get the hell played out of it, and I'd probably just clone the thing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VELiL7SExGE) so I could keep beating it up.  
One thing that has confused me for years: The last time I went to a music festival, the Metal stage had 3 amps on it: an Ampeg SVT for the bass players, a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and a Marshall JCM 900 for the guitarists.  The Dual Recto was the amp of choice for many of the guitarists, but the last time I gave one a go in the music store, it sounded like farting through mud.  What I did wrong I'll never know, but that red stripe Mark III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Boogie_Mark_Series#Mark_III) at Al's Guitarville treated me like the guitar hero I always wished I were.

*sniff*

I knew I should've starved, I just knew it...  :wallbash:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 01, 2014, 09:24 PM
Ah me...the things we do for love!

Ain't that the truth! Actually, a friend of mine, who also gave up playing bass professionally (long before we met) pointed out something when he found out I decided to start playing again.  He said even though he occasionally thinks about playing again just for kicks, he has no regrets about quitting because he doesn't need to play. But I do, and he knew that long before I decided to pick it up again.

And now it looks like I have a teacher to take lessons a couple times a month. That should help greatly with my technique - especially since I'm not using a pick like I did the first time around. Even better, I just found out tonight that I'll have a regular Wednesday night jam session to sit in on with some friends of a friend. They came over and played with me a couple weeks back and were so happy to find a real bassist they invited me to sit in.

The best part is, the drummer, who hosts it, is a bachelor whose house is basically set up to play music and games. He even has a decent little bass amp so I won't have to haul mine with me. Good thing too since I just blew the mains fuse and won't have the replacement until Friday. My cab just doesn't sound the same powered by my ancient POS 20 Watt Crate practice amp.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 01, 2014, 09:27 PM
@E - You didn't do anything wrong if it was the Dual Rectifier AFAIC. That was (is) one harsh amp. I once suggested that my godson (the Berklee College of Music guitar major) go with a Vox AC-30. I based this recommendation on the general sound he liked, his style of playing, and the stuff he wanted to play. He went with a Dual 'Recto' instead. Seven years later, and now a gigging musician, he uses an AC-30 as his main amp. Even called to tell me what a great "box" it was - and ask if I ever tried one. ;D

Funny thing about the Mesa Boogie Mark {Roman numeral here}...It's core circuit design is just a 50s Fender Bassman. It's tricked out with some fancy gain stages on the front end. And some minor electrical design improvements. But it's still mostly a Bassman. As are roughly 70% of all medium power guitar amps built today.

Like the P-Bass, the Strat, and the Tele...it amazing how much - and how often - Leo Fender got it almost completely right the very first time.

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Leo! THE MAN!!! :-* :Thmbsup:

-----------------------

BTW-  my current fav for a reasonably priced guitar amp (if I were buying today - which I'm not) would be the Fender '68 Custom Princeton Reverb. (http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20145-fender-68-custom-princeton-reverb-review)

If I had money to burn, I'd opt for a Magnatone Twilighter (http://www.vintageguitar.com/16040/magnatone-twilighter/) if for no other reason than to get that real (i.e. pitch-shifting) vibrato circuit and dreamy reverb tank. But I'd have to wipe the blood off my nose after looking at the price tag. (Note: I'm a delay/modulation junky in case you hadn't guessed.)

Nick Jaffee (Just Nick) has a nice discussion and demo of each here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rffnidknmD0&index=5&list=PLJbDWzfvZamXRBi2cVaGV9KFlQ9A2MhnU) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mreeRQa7OzA&list=PLJbDWzfvZamXRBi2cVaGV9KFlQ9A2MhnU&index=2).

Long live the 6V6! :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 01, 2014, 09:45 PM
That should help greatly with my technique - especially since I'm not using a pick like I did the first time around.

Nothing wrong with a pick IMO. Just one more arrow in the quiver. I'm a finger player myself. But if you ever play a large venue - or a big outdoor gig - you'll sometimes need to sacrifice that "feel" for the extra definition a pick provides. At least if you want the "pulse" to be heard and felt instead of just blasting out a low amorphous roar.

Check out bassist Scott Devine's website (http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/) and YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/devinebass) channel. He's got some really good bass-oriented instructional videos. Really nice guy. And a talented and dedicated musician. I always find something interesting and worthwhile there. I suggest you subscribe to (at least) his freebie lessons. I was lucky enough to have my GF buy me a subscription to his bass academy as a birthday present last year. I got a huge amount out of it despite having played a bass for most of my life. (If I have any advantage in music, it's my unshakable belief there's always something new I can learn or try to master.)

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Scott Devine in any way, shape, or form. I just really like what he's doing for bass players. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 01, 2014, 10:08 PM
That should help greatly with my technique - especially since I'm not using a pick like I did the first time around.

Nothing wrong with a pick IMO. Just one more arrow in the quiver. I'm a finger player myself. But if you ever play a large venue - or a big outdoor gig - you'll sometimes need to sacrifice that "feel" for the extra definition a pick provides. At least if you want the "pulse" to be heard and felt instead of just blasting out a low amorphous roar.

Check out bassist Scott Devine's website (http://www.scottsbasslessons.com/) and YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/devinebass) channel. He's got some really good bass-oriented instructional videos. Really nice guy. And a talented and dedicated musician. I always find something interesting and worthwhile there. I suggest you subscribe to (at least) his freebie lessons. I was lucky enough to have my GF buy me a subscription to his bass academy as a birthday present last year. I got a huge amount out of it despite having played a bass for most of my life. (If I have any advantage in music, it's my unshakable belief there's always something new I can learn or try to master.)

Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Scott Devine in any way, shape, or form. I just really like what he's doing for bass players. :Thmbsup:

I've got nothing against using a pick, but it turns out I'm a lot better with my fingers. In fact, it turns out I just sort of naturally worked out a variation of the floating thumb muting technique Scott covers in one of his videos. Billy Sheehan also has some excellent instructional videos for bassists at just about any skill level.

The way I see it, though, there's no substitute for having a good teacher to analyze and critique my technique. One of the many things I'm doing differently this time around is focusing on technique before all else. If you get that down first, everything else will come in time. Technically you can also save it for last, but that takes so much longer - as I learned the hard way in my youth.

That's also something of a benefit to dealing with the narrower nut width for now. It makes me work that much harder at precision fretting - pun only slightly intended.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 01, 2014, 10:53 PM
I wonder if we should ask Mouser about the possibility of getting a Musician/Musical Instrument/Music Tech child board at DoCo? ;D

Or maybe I should just set one up for us 'off-campus' so to speak? :huh:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 01, 2014, 11:42 PM
He might go for the child board. At the least he'd want in on it if we set it up elsewhere.

Maybe what we need is to show up at his place with our instruments and tell him to get out his guitar. So who plays drums? And who's driving?  :D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on December 02, 2014, 02:10 AM
@40Hz:  I swore off Fender amps since the last one I tried.  Can't remember what it was, but it was loud as hell at less than 100 watts and rang like a gong...  Just like my Gramp's '53 Deluxe (which I still have and give periodic TLC :Thmbsup:).  Perfect compliment to that Fender guitar tone if that's what you're looking for, but I prefer to think of Fenders as the platform everybody else dove off of.  Yeah, I'm aware that they're all Bassman underneath, but I love the soul that happens when you start tinkering...

My dream amp would be to find a burnt-out Peavey twin cab (lurv the twin sound) for next to nothing, gut it and roll my own two-channel: An AC-30 or Ampeg V2 preamp circuit for the clean channel, and the Lead channel from a Mesa Mark IV for kroonch.  For power, I dunno;  I'm torn between the raw power of 6V6s, smoothness of EL34s, or maybe I'd toss the tubes out and frankenstein in the power section from a Sunn Beta Lead 100 (drool).

Or... if I had a grand or so burning a hole in my wallet, I'd wait until Bugera is allowed to sell Magicians in the states again, if ever.   :huh:
Look familiar?
http://www.bugera-amps.com/en/Products/MAGICIAN-INFINIUM.aspx
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I thought so... and so did Mesa Engineering's lawyers (or so I've heard) :deal:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: mouser on December 02, 2014, 03:09 AM
I wonder if we should ask Mouser about the possibility of getting a Musician/Musical Instrument/Music Tech child board at DoCo?
I am not a musician but I love reading threads like this, people talking about their hobbies, projects, passions.
I don't want these discussions hiding away in a sub-board, in fact i'd like to see more of them in the Living Room.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 02, 2014, 06:35 AM
I wonder if we should ask Mouser about the possibility of getting a Musician/Musical Instrument/Music Tech child board at DoCo?
I am not a musician but I love reading threads like this, people talking about their hobbies, projects, passions.
I don't want these discussions hiding away in a sub-board, in fact i'd like to see more of them in the Living Room.


@musix people at DoCo - Does Mouser have any idea what he's getting himself into with people like us? ;D :Thmbsup:

@Mouser - Thx. And here I was worried that people might be getting bored with us. ;) :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on December 02, 2014, 09:25 AM
I wonder if we should ask Mouser about the possibility of getting a Musician/Musical Instrument/Music Tech child board at DoCo?
I am not a musician but I love reading threads like this, people talking about their hobbies, projects, passions.
I don't want these discussions hiding away in a sub-board, in fact i'd like to see more of them in the Living Room.


I understand your point- but to give a different view; with so much in the living room, everything moves down and disappears... and we forget about such threads.  Also, the noise in the living room gets loud :)  I look at it the same as if we were in person... people would gravitate to groups to talk based on interest, and move around... sometimes venturing back to the main conversation.

Just giving that bit of a viewpoint. :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 02, 2014, 10:55 AM
^ I guess we could always take turns being the thread's designated bumper. ;)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 02, 2014, 11:08 AM
Anyone seen or been a part of any nifty one-man musical shows involving good use of portable technology?  It's always something on my mind as I get busier and forming/practicing with groups becomes more difficult.  The solid state drives have really improved the ability to play sampled instruments, which is very handy, and they have made live music much easier in general.

I remember the 80s and the roland drum machine one man shows.  Now, we can have better sounding loops and stuff, but also better abilities to improvise the loops on the fly.  Some useful software for this I've been meaning to toy with:
Ableton live (apparently, this is good for looped stuff or live playback)
Cantabile (http://www.cantabilesoftware.com/) (I really have my eye on this one, since I use a lot of VSTs and samples.  You can create set lists and the interface is built for what I'm describing).  I've personally never seen it used myself, or anything like it, but there are many people using this out there.

[edit]
oh! you know what would probably work?  Using a wireless playstation controller (DS4) and being able to control a live situation with it.  I've already used it for emulators, and it works very well.  I once was looking for a midi controller to do this sort of thing, but what i really need is a bunch of buttons and mouse stuff that can be assigned keyboard shortcuts, I don't need midi things.  Using midi and configuring it to do non-musical things on the computer is a huge pain.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 02, 2014, 01:55 PM
Looping has come so far it's almost it's own musical idiom and discipline these days. I have a huge amount of admiration for people who have mastered samples and looping for live performance. Tom Dolby does it brilliantly. I have zero interest in doing it myself. But I love seeing other people who do it well. A lot of one-person street performers are into it big time.

I've even seen a few one man shows where the performer was also controlling an entire multimedia environment along with the music in a manner far beyond that of the average DJ. Cool stuff. Again, not something I personally want to do. But I respect people who are trying to push the envelope and technology as far as possible.

 :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 02, 2014, 03:04 PM
Looping has come so far it's almost it's own musical idiom and discipline these days. I have a huge amount of admiration for people who have mastered samples and looping for live performance. Tom Dolby does it brilliantly. I have zero interest in doing it myself. But I love seeing other people who do it well. A lot of one-person street performers are into it big time.

I've even seen a few one man shows where the performer was also controlling an entire multimedia environment along with the music in a manner far beyond that of the average DJ. Cool stuff. Again, not something I personally want to do. But I respect people who are trying to push the envelope and technology as far as possible.

 :Thmbsup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNIQrIXlrNw
Wow!  That is very impressive, (Dolby). 

The other reason why I like this tech is because it's like a shortcut for writing music.  Writing notes on ledger is great practice, but extremely time consuming.  Entering it midi into something like finale is also time consuming.  Now, I can basically record all the parts and that's my "written" music.  I can take that to a studio and say "play this" to the musicians instead of giving them paper.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 02, 2014, 03:24 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNIQrIXlrNw
Wow!  That is very impressive, (Dolby).

Yup! TD is awesome! I've posted these previously but they're worth revisiting. First is Europa. What's really impressive is how minimalist his setup is here. But he still does a creditable performance with it. That setup is well within the financial resources of the average musician. Like burlesque queen Gypsy Rose Lee so famously said: "It ain't how much you've got. It's how you use it."



Then there's his multimedia extravaganza/retrospective The Invisible Lighthouse where he pulls out all the stops and goes state of the art. This is the trailer for the show:



Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 02, 2014, 05:32 PM
i wish I had more videos of my performances, but I was just watching this and it's basically exactly what I wish i could play like.  Dave Mckenna is a new discovery for me and has blown me away.  I have always wanted such a balance of virtuosity, accessibility, and rhythm.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 03, 2014, 07:36 AM
As much as people who can create music that way impress me - and don't try telling me they aren't musicians if you want me to take you seriously - in the the wrong hands, technology can be extremely frustrating. Back in about 1999 I went to see Edgar Winter in a small club. In fact, I was there with another bassist. Needless to say, we were both disappointed to find out all the bass lines were sequenced.

We were also shocked at how few people showed up to see him. Winter was there on a double bill with Dr. Hook, who went on first. After Dr. Hook finished, a couple hundred people got up and left. Only about 10 of us stayed to watch Edgar Winter.

Not surprisingly, it wasn't a great show,  but I got to see his brother a few months later - in about the same size club - and it was as good a show as I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 03, 2014, 10:13 AM
^It does seem weird he'd do that considering music is such an interactive and improvisational art form. The give and take between the various band elements (bass/percussion/instrumental/vocal) is what it's all about. Or at least it is to me.

I'm guessing it may have been for reasons of economy. Or possibly to provide a framework for him to perform in. Lifestyle choices are starting to catch up to a lot of the Old Guard. And short-term memory is one of the first things to go. Maybe he's in that camp?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 03, 2014, 10:24 AM
^It does seem weird he'd do that considering music is such an interactive and improvisational art form. The give and take between the various band elements (bass/percussion/instrumental/vocal) is what it's all about. Or at least it is to me.

I'm guessing it may have been for reasons of economy. Or possibly to provide a framework for him to perform in. Lifestyle choices are starting to catch up to a lot of the Old Guard. And short-term memory is one of the first things to go. Maybe he's in that camp?

Saw the same thing happen with Van Morrison some years back. We went to see him in a club. About 50 people showed up. He did two songs, took a 20 minute break, and came back on stage drunk off his ass. We all left about 40 minutes later when he stopped the show and started in on a long drunkard's expletive-peppered rant about the music industry.

A few of of us felt so bad for him that we went back the next night. Turned out we were the only three in the entire place. (Word gets around fast.) This time Morrison came out a half hour late - and was already completely smashed when he did. The club owner comp'ed our drinks, gave us our ticket charge back, and we left.

Very sad. :(
Why do you care if Van is drunk, wouldn't he sing the same regardless??  (I kid, I kid)

Very interesting stories about Van and Winter.  Wasn't Edgar always in the technology stuff (I'm thinking Frankenstein, love that song)?

I've been listening to the old guard complain about the music industry recently, the latest one from Vince Gill.  But I just can't seem to understand what exactly their complaint is about?  I'm not trying to argue with them, I just can't see what it is exactly that is bothering them.  I feel it has to do with the fact that you can ONLY make money if you play what they consider "sell out" type music.  Is that what it is?  Then there's guys like Neil Young who seem to be hocking audiophile snake oil, I don't get it.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 03, 2014, 10:49 AM
^I think a lot of it is them seeing some of the new corporate and marketing analysis "inspired" acts coming in and walking off with all the nickels. Such is life. I'm sure the musicians of their parent's era mostly felt the same way about them and their music. ;D

Seriously. I have strong opinions about what constitutes "good" music. But I also have zero patience with musicians who are into the whole "Why do people listen to  _____  and not my stuff?" thing. My feeling is, if what you do (or want to do) doesn’t attract an audience, either: (a) stop playing; (b) play for your own enjoyment in your own living room; or (c) go perform in a park for free - and maybe people will eventually start to come around.

Music is art. But it's also showbiz. And one of the most important rules in showbiz is: NEVER EVER PUBLICLY TRASH SOMEBODY ELSE'S ACT! Probably best not to do it in private either. Because it always gets back sooner or later. Always.

I think you don't get it because there's nothing to get. It boils down to somebody else getting the applause and money - and not them. The fact is, many of the Old Guard have blown their fortunes - and are now finding themselves in their mid to late 60s completely broke. That just might have a little to do with it. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 03, 2014, 11:28 AM
I suspect it was an economic thing - he was touring with Dr. Hook and playing small clubs in the middle of nowhere. I also suspect it had something to do with his love of synthesizers as well.  You can hear that all the way back to They Only Come Out At Night.

Honestly, that wasn't even the biggest problem in his band. His guitarist was a wannabe late 80s hair metal god with as bad a case of LGD (lead guitarist's disease) as I've ever seen. He pulled his head out of his backside during Frankenstein and the one White Trash song they played, but otherwise he was just off on his own all night.

I'd like to think a decent bassist could have helped, but LGD is often incurable in my experience. In any case, I'm not sure Edgar cared that much at the time. At least I didn't pay much to see him, and honestly Dr. Hook was a lot better than I would ever have guessed.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 03, 2014, 11:58 AM
^I met Dr. Hook ages ago when they were at the top of their game. Checked into the hotel I worked at the night I was on the front desk. Nicest bunch of guys I ever met. Friendly, funny, articulate, and polite. One thing came across big time was how much they were enjoying what they were doing. A few people in the lobby recognized them and came up. The Hook crew were every bit as pleasant (and patient) with them as you could possibly hope for. Signed some autographs. Even passed out some free tickets for the next night's show.

During their stay I got to talk with them a bit. I complimented them on their music. Ray Sawyer immediately jumped in and said a big factor in their success was that the band had never been afraid to work with and perform music written by outside songwriters like Shel Silverstein. He said a lot of groups make the mistake of insisting on doing everything by themselves. I found that really interesting, and surprisingly humble.

I think this song of theirs touches on SB's earlier question:



lyrics here
DR. HOOK LYRICS
"Everybody's Makin' It Big But Me"

Elvis he's a hero he's a superstar
And I hear that Paul McCartney drives a Rolls Royce car
And Dylan sings for millions
And I just sing for free
Oh everybody's makin' it big but me

Oh, everybody's makin' it big but me
Everybody's makin' it big but me

Neil Diamond sings for diamonds
And here's ole rhinestone me

Oh everybody's makin' it big but me

Well I hear that Alice Cooper's got a foxy chick
To wipe off his snake, and keep him rich
And Elton John's got two fine ladies
And Doctor John's got three
And I'm still seein' them same old sleezoes, that I used to see

Oh, everybody's makin' it big but me
Yeah everybody's makin' it big but me

I've got charisma
And personality

Oh how come everybody's makin' it big but me?

(What's wrong with that?)
(I don't see nothing wrong with it Ray)

Well I paint my face with glitter
Just like Bowie does
And I wear the same mascara
That Mick Jagger does
And I even put some lipstick on
But that just hurt my dad and mom

And everybody's makin' it big but me

Oh, everybody's makin' it big but me
Yeah everybody's makin' it big but me

They got groupies for their bands
And all I got is my right hand
And everybody's makin' it big but me

Everybody's makin' it, makin' it, makin' it
Everybody's makin' it big......ME!



Like I said. Great bunch of guys.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 03, 2014, 12:06 PM
Honestly, that wasn't even the biggest problem in his band. His guitarist was a wannabe late 80s hair metal god with as bad a case of LGD (lead guitarist's disease) as I've ever seen.

+1! :Thmbsup: Right up there with Roger Fisher in Heart's original lineup.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 03, 2014, 12:19 PM
During their stay I got to talk with them a bit. I complimented them on their music. Ray Sawyer immediately jumped in and said a big factor in their success was that the band had never been afraid to work with and perform music written by outside songwriters like Shel Silverstein. He said a lot of groups make the mistake of insisting on doing everything by themselves. I found that really interesting, and surprisingly humble.
There's a lesson here somewhere...

Fun group!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 03, 2014, 12:34 PM
@40Hz:  I swore off Fender amps since the last one I tried.  Can't remember what it was, but it was loud as hell at less than 100 watts and rang like a gong...  Just like my Gramp's '53 Deluxe (which I still have and give periodic TLC :Thmbsup:).

Seriously? I wonder which one. My GF owned several. She currently possesses a late 70s Lead 75 1x15 and a spankin' new '65 Delux Reverb 1x12 They can be loud (if you crank them) but they can also purr like kittens. The Lead 75 has a toggle to drop it down to 15 watts - and (ironically) has a lead preamp stage that can be cascaded into the normal preamp stage. Foot-switchable too. (Hmm...I wonder who they got those ideas from, right?)

There's always the option to add a power attenuator to the mix if you're one of the "dimed in the bedroom" crowd. But since she's a low to medium volume type of guitarist, we never felt the need. Besides, plugging a pedal into the front jack is a lot easier if you ever do need that full out sound at reasonable levels. More flexible too, as we all know.

We also know any guitar amp packing more than 50 watts makes no sense to build at all. Even much over 25 watts is pushing it. With today's sound technology, those high wattage behemoths and gigantic backlines of yesteryear are just soooo yesteryear. Unless you're into guaranteed ear damage. Or possible electrocution.

Perfect compliment to that Fender guitar tone if that's what you're looking for, but I prefer to think of Fenders as the platform everybody else dove off of.  

Sounds about right to me! ;D

Yeah, I'm aware that they're all Bassman underneath, but I love the soul that happens when you start tinkering...

So do I. And there's certainly a lot more to life than "classic" sound and vibe. Tinkering? I say: Keep at it! :Thmbsup: 8)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 03, 2014, 12:40 PM
Honestly, that wasn't even the biggest problem in his band. His guitarist was a wannabe late 80s hair metal god with as bad a case of LGD (lead guitarist's disease) as I've ever seen.

+1! :Thmbsup: Right up there with Roger Fisher in Heart's original lineup.

Isn't that the truth.  Here's a tip for any aspiring rock stars. If you you have a vocalist anywhere near the ability of Ann Wilson in your band, she will always be your primary focus,  and don't ever forget how lucky you are to have her. Journeyman lead guitarists are a dime a dozen.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 03, 2014, 01:01 PM
If you you have a vocalist anywhere near the ability of Ann Wilson in your band, she will always be your primary focus,  and don't ever forget how lucky you are to have her.

Agree 100%

To be a good guitarist takes some talent, some education, and a devotion to mastering some techniques.

Pure unvarnished vocal talent, however, is a gift from the gods. Be respectful. 8)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on December 03, 2014, 02:47 PM
If you you have a vocalist anywhere near the ability of Ann Wilson in your band, she will always be your primary focus,  and don't ever forget how lucky you are to have her.

Agree 100%

To be a good guitarist takes some talent, some education, and a devotion to mastering some techniques.

Pure unvarnished vocal talent, however, is a gift from the gods. Be respectful. 8)

As a vocalist, I'd actually disagree.  People think it's about innate vocal talent... but I'd go the route that it's a combination of qualities that make those timeless vocalists.  Many of these qualities can't be taught... but they can be developed.  And many of them are not the classical technicalities - some vocalists are actually known for their peccadilloes.

From Johnny Cash to Leonard Cohen- there are examples all over the place.  And how many times have you heard better singers take on Hallelujah... but fall short of Cohen?

Though I most emphatically agree with you about Ann Wilson.  I saw her in one performance at an awards ceremony, and initially, her sister had all of the focus, and why not?  She was dressed down in all black with a deep brimmed hat that hid her face.  But when they started performing, it was like a star had descended to light her up.  And this in her 60s?  When it's only by nostalgia that I can listen to her contemporary Stevie Nicks at this point.  I don't know what she did to preserve her voice, but it seems in all honesty more powerful now.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 03, 2014, 02:58 PM
Just for clarity's sake, I don't think most vocalists are all that special, in fact I have a better voice and more skill than most. Ann Wilson is in an entirely different league. She could just as easily been the world's greatest operatic soprano. Even beyond her voice, her skill is second to none, but that voice by itself would put her almost in a class of her own.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on December 03, 2014, 03:02 PM
Just for clarity's sake, I don't think most vocalists are all that special, in fact I have a better voice and more skill than most. Ann Wilson is in an entirely different league. She could just as easily been the world's greatest operatic soprano. Even beyond her voice, her skill is second to none, but that voice by itself would put her almost in a class of her own.

I'd totally agree... on both points.  And I think the vocal competition shows put the truth to that.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 03, 2014, 03:11 PM
but they can be developed.

If they're there to begin with. That is something, unlike a musical instrument, that can't be bought. Some vocal abilities can't even be developed. It's there or it's not. And no amount of hard work or sincere effort will get it for you.

I sing too. I'm not bad. Three years with a university chorale that ran the gamut from Gregorian chant to Cole Porter taught me a lot about performance and various vocal technique. It made me a vastly better singer than I was before. But I would never consider myself a vocalist first and foremost.

I suspect (no proof to offer on this btw) that probably something like 70% of all people could be taught to sing adequately, with a higher percentage of them being women rather than men. But that's not the same thing as considering them 'singers', any more than being able to accompany yourself on a guitar in a workmanlike manner automatically earns you the title of 'guitarist.'

There's that difference between talent and skill; and craft and art. Difficult, if not impossible, to define. But oh so obvious to almost anyone when they encounter it.

That's what I mean by a gift. Superb singers are gifted rather than merely talented.

(Does any of the above even make sense, I wonder? ;D )
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: MilesAhead on December 03, 2014, 03:23 PM
(Does any of the above even make sense, I wonder? ;D )

Makes sense to me.  I don't think a Cassandra Wilson (http://www.cassandrawilson.com/) comes along every other week.  On the other hand those lip syncers who take singing lessons after they get the recording contract are a special category of talent that Howard Stern would refer to as "worth bangin'."  ;)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on December 03, 2014, 10:27 PM
If they're there to begin with. That is something, unlike a musical instrument, that can't be bought. Some vocal abilities can't even be developed. It's there or it's not. And no amount of hard work or sincere effort will get it for you.

I think the same argument could be said for a musical instrument.  Or coding.  Or any other of a myriad of things.  Let's take coding.  You can teach coding- there's schools all over the map and all of the internet.  Getting a computer is of course trivial- especially if you're reading this on one :)

But having been a consultant for several years, I can say that I've seen competent coders- and then I've seen those that are transcendent.  And what makes that difference?  A mindset, certain capabilities for seeing the solution through the problem while having the ability not to fall in love with the solution- but to fall in love with the problem.  Not sure if I'm making sense... but I think in most things that require a creative spark, there's something about that spark that cannot be taught.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 04, 2014, 11:28 AM
Not sure if I'm making sense...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sometimes feels that way when it comes to discussing something related to music. ;D :Thmbsup:

Funny how what's so clear in the head falls apart when you try to put it into words when it comes to music. A hundred things really need to be said simultaneously. And there's very little that doesn't need to be qualified and re-qualified. And half the time, the exact opposite is equally true.

That's what you get for "dancing about architecture" I guess. ;) 8)

FWIW my guitarist GF tends to start quietly singing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRwjR7N0H4U) song any time I start getting too analytical or esoteric. (Think she's trying to tell me something?  :huh:)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 04, 2014, 02:44 PM
Not sure if I'm making sense...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sometimes feels that way when it comes to discussing something related to music. ;D :Thmbsup:

Funny how what's so clear in the head falls apart when you try to put it into words when it comes to music. A hundred things really need to be said simultaneously. And there's very little that doesn't need to be qualified and re-qualified. And half the time, the exact opposite is equally true.

That's what you get for "dancing about architecture" I guess. ;) 8)

FWIW my guitarist GF tends to start quietly singing this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRwjR7N0H4U) song any time I start getting too analytical or esoteric. (Think she's trying to tell me something?  :huh:)
Great version!  Who is Maria Muldaur??
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 04, 2014, 03:12 PM
@40hz, @tjbray: It's only taken forever, but here are the pictures you asked for :)

Back: [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Front: [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

@tjbray - I'm still hoping to help you with that app!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 04, 2014, 03:34 PM
Great version!  Who is Maria Muldaur??

I hope so. She wrote the bloody thing! ;D

Maria Muldaur is the bluesy vocalist (and little heartthrob) from the 70s that had the big hit Midnight at the Oasis.

This is her (on the left) with another (even more talented) vocalist from the same era you may also not recognize: ;)

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] and sitting between a couple of famous ladies>>> [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

For those too young to know
(1) Maria Muldaur and Linda Ronstadt. (2) Bonnie Raitt, Maria Muldaur, Linda Ronstadt


 :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 04, 2014, 03:48 PM
I don't think a Cassandra Wilson (http://www.cassandrawilson.com/) comes along every other week.

You have exquisite taste Miles! I'm a big fan of hers. :Thmbsup:


Dave Mckenna is a new discovery for me and has blown me away.  I have always wanted such a balance of virtuosity, accessibility, and rhythm.

Really nice SB! I'm gonna have to add him to my listen list. Thx for the find! :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 04, 2014, 04:44 PM
Love that picture, 40.  Linda, Bonnie, and this girl Maria...3 great vocalists in one pic.  I had a whole phase of Linda, then Bonnie, so i guess I'm up for the third!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 04, 2014, 05:40 PM
Yay! The 5 pack of replacement fuses for my amp came a day early - and with an extra 5 fuses.

Sorry, I'll let you get back to discussing awesome female vocalists.  Oh yeah, and while we're on the subject, let's not forget the late, great Sandy Denny.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 04, 2014, 07:48 PM
^One of the truly lovely voices of the 20th century.

  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

              "Sandy"
Alexandra Elene MacLean Denny
           1947 - 1978





Where indeed?

Vaya con Dios, Sandy...

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on December 06, 2014, 02:52 AM
@theGleep: No worries on the time it took to get those loaded. I'll get on my desktop in the morning for a better look, but from my iPhone with the pics maxed out, it looks like it is probably alder, at least that's my guess. Alder's grain is usually rather plain, without dramatic color differences between the dark and light lines. That's not to say you can't get good looking grain, but the darker your stain, the more blended together it will be.

The strat build I posted pics of is an alder body. When I was sealing the wood with shellac, I noticed it had a nice flame pattern wanting to peek out, so rather than considering what color to paint it, I finished it in a satin French polish, and showed photos to the buyer, who liked it as it was. I wanted to put a high gloss on it, but he shot that down. It turned out very nice, especially under stage lighting. Before that build, I had always gone with a rather popular opinion that alder is no good for anything but paint.

If you want really dramatic woodgrain, and you have a woodworker's store like Rockler in your area (where they sell veneer), you can usually find a hobbyist willing to put a book matched veneer on the front for little to no cost other than supplies. That said, I think you will find alder has a bad rap as a paint only wood, but I've found that to be misguided.

I hope you don't forget to post pics here when it's done--I can't wait to see it!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 07, 2014, 04:40 PM
@tjbray:  I'm actually fully prepared for this to not look as super-awesome-cool as it might if someone else did it - I'm gonna be proud of it because *I* did it :)

But I am hoping that the "character" the torch/heat gun added will help it look better. :)

Thanks and thanks in advance for all of your advice!  I will *definitely* post pictures.

So - I have stain prep, stain and shellac.  (Don't *have* the shelac, yet - gonna buy it just before I put it on).

I have a wire hanger I plan to hang it (through the holes that mount the neck to the body) with - should I hang it through the *whole* finishing process?  If I take it down to sand it (can't imagine *not* doing so), would it be okay if I'm wearing jeans, or should I buy a tyvek suit?

So far, I've been sanding "bare handed".  I have a box of neoprene gloves - should I re-sand with the gloves on before I stain prep?

Then, should I do the ((alcohol + sand) * 3) bit before the stain prep, or after, or both?

Would everclear (95% grain alcohol) work in place of denatured alcohol?

When it's time to stain, I should do the ((alcohol + sand) * 3) thing before I apply the stain?  Or should this be *after* staining, but before shellacing?

When it's time to shellac, I do a lot of as-thin-as-I-can coats, right? 

Thanks again for the advice!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 07, 2014, 05:03 PM
I think you will find alder has a bad rap as a paint only wood, but I've found that to be misguided.

It is the most popular choice of wood for sunbursts however. But those often range from translucent to transparent so I don't know if that would be considered the same thing as a painted finish.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 07, 2014, 05:05 PM
Would everclear (95% grain alcohol) work in place of denatured alcohol?

Yup! For shellac it does. IMMO it's preferable (far less toxic). Also a good excuse to hit the package store. ;)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 08, 2014, 01:22 PM
This just showed up on Guitar World's newsletter under the heading: WTF Video: Street Musicians Play Handmade Broom Guitar and Shovel Bass — and it Sounds Good! — Yes? No?

I guess they never took a look at some of the videos posted on www.cigarboxnation.com  :P

Here's the video:



Here's more proof it's not what you have, it's how you play it.



Guerilla music performance! Love it! :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 08, 2014, 01:45 PM
I've heard numerous stories about an old guy - think the stereotypical uneducated blues man - who used to go to open mic nights at the local blues club with a plastic kazoo. He would apparently blow the doors off the place.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 08, 2014, 02:16 PM
^Right up there with the semi-deranged street person in early-70s Cambridge MA that used to play a mean "hand-ocarina" like so:

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

He'd occasionally show up at club jams, and announce "I'm gonna play my hand tonight." He'd then do his little schtick about "taking it out of its carrying case" (i.e. a glove). However, the concerned "Who is this guy?" looks and giggles soon got replaced by OMG!!!s once he stepped up to the microphone and joined in on a jazz or blues number. He knew them all. And man could he play!

Guy was awesome.

Let's not forget Moondog either. 8)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 08, 2014, 02:48 PM
Would everclear (95% grain alcohol) work in place of denatured alcohol?

Yup! For shellac it does. IMMO it's preferable (far less toxic). Also a good excuse to hit the package store. ;)

I actually have a few bottles to help adjust the proof of my vodka for vanilla extract.  I'm looking for the *perfect* extract recipe.  I doubt I'll ever find it :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: ginger on December 08, 2014, 04:57 PM
Hey guys! I aim at putting a few classy dance mixes together each year. So if you fancy a musical journey/experience full of sparkly, upbeat harmonies and melodies - give this a try! http://www.soundoflondon.co.uk/exec/all-posts/1840 (http://www.soundoflondon.co.uk/exec/all-posts/1840)  Most tracks are out of the UK, as Europe in general is pretty good at this genre :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 08, 2014, 07:01 PM
@ginger - welcome to the thread! :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 08, 2014, 09:27 PM
Would everclear (95% grain alcohol) work in place of denatured alcohol?

Yup! For shellac it does. IMMO it's preferable (far less toxic). Also a good excuse to hit the package store. ;)

I actually have a few bottles to help adjust the proof of my vodka for vanilla extract.  I'm looking for the *perfect* extract recipe.  I doubt I'll ever find it :)

I'd be interested in buying some off you if you ever do. I've yet to find a vanilla extract I absolutely am in love with. Luck! :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: TaoPhoenix on December 08, 2014, 10:42 PM
40 hz was saying "for those too young to know" ... but in many ways it's "two out of three IS bad". We know a name, we know a voice, because I for one raided flea markets to get tapes for 50 cents each. But there was no way to get pictures of anyone back then.

Maybe YouTube is MTV 3.0!?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 09, 2014, 12:51 AM
But there was no way to get pictures of anyone back then.

There's some truth to that. Unless you were reading the "alternative" paper or magazine that covered the local music scene (Boston-The Phoenix/B.A.D.; NYC-The Village Voice, etc.) or Rolling Stone, there weren't that many pictures available. There were album covers and liners, concert posters and...that was about it. Music was far less 'visual' not too long ago. People went to concerts to listen. ("We went to hear XYZ.") Today people more often say they "watched" a concert. ("We went to see XYZ.")

It's a small but significant shift in perspective that reflects a very different expectation about how a musical performance is to be experienced.

Sometimes tiny changes in colloquial expressions indicate seismic changes in perception.
 8)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 09, 2014, 07:39 AM
but they can be developed.

If they're there to begin with. That is something, unlike a musical instrument, that can't be bought. Some vocal abilities can't even be developed. It's there or it's not. And no amount of hard work or sincere effort will get it for you.

I sing too. I'm not bad. Three years with a university chorale that ran the gamut from Gregorian chant to Cole Porter taught me a lot about performance and various vocal technique. It made me a vastly better singer than I was before. But I would never consider myself a vocalist first and foremost.

I suspect (no proof to offer on this btw) that probably something like 70% of all people could be taught to sing adequately, with a higher percentage of them being women rather than men. But that's not the same thing as considering them 'singers', any more than being able to accompany yourself on a guitar in a workmanlike manner automatically earns you the title of 'guitarist.'

There's that difference between talent and skill; and craft and art. Difficult, if not impossible, to define. But oh so obvious to almost anyone when they encounter it.

That's what I mean by a gift. Superb singers are gifted rather than merely talented.

(Does any of the above even make sense, I wonder? ;D )

I keep meaning to get back to this, because I do agree, at least where it concerns the great ones. I would add one caveat, that a great voice alone can't make you a great singer any more than dexterity makes you a great drummer.

Ironically, I'm something of an anomaly, in the sense that I have both the gift and the ear, not to mention the good fortune to have received some first class training in my youth,  but my Asperger's Syndrome,  which actually adds to my music, makes it impossible for me to be a front man. It also makes it difficult, depending on the music even impossible, for me to sing and play at the same time.

However, on the subject of great singers, I can think of one in particular who illustrates your point perfectly, and that's Corey Glover of Living Colour. Given that every other member of the band could arguably be among the best in the world on his chosen instrument, it would be easy to dismiss Glover as less important,but that would be a huge mistake.

As impressive as it is for the rest of the band to smoothly move between playing R&B to heavy metal to hardcore to hip hop, they still have one huge advantage compared to him. He doesn't get to change instruments when he needs a different sound. What he was born with is what he's got.  Arguably, it's even more than that since singing, even the most beautiful singing, actually damages your vocal chords. The fact he sounds amazing singing stuff influenced by, or even flat out copied from, Marvin Gaye, Al Green, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Bad Brains, Neil Young, and any number of other acts, is at least as impressive as anything you could say about the rest of the band.

TL; DR:
Mostly I disagree, but for the truly great ones you're absolutely right.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on December 09, 2014, 08:05 AM
I keep meaning to get back to this, because I do agree, at least where it concerns the great ones. I would add one caveat, that a great voice alone can't make you a great singer any more than dexterity makes you a great drummer.

Yes!  This is exactly what I meant... though I was including it for the others also.  That's the part that I wanted to illustrate... that all forms of creative endeavor need something else.  Not just singing.

However, on the subject of great singers, I can think of one in particular who illustrates your point perfectly, and that's Corey Glover of Living Colour. Given that every other member of the band could arguably be among the best in the world on his chosen instrument, it would be easy to dismiss Glover as less important,but that would be a huge mistake.

Definitely underrated when it comes to male singers.

And I have nothing to add... other than I totally agree.  

As impressive as it is for the rest of the band to smoothly move between playing R&B to heavy metal to hardcore to hip hop, they still have one huge advantage compared to him. He doesn't get to change instruments when he needs a different sound. What he was born with is what he's got.  Arguably, it's even more than that since singing, even the most beautiful singing, actually damages your vocal chords. The fact he sounds amazing singing stuff influenced by, or even flat out copied from, Marvin Gaye, Al Green, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, Bad Brains, Neil Young, and any number of other acts, is at least as impressive as anything you could say about the rest of the band.

That's a good point.  Look at many great singers after they get older.  Which is one of the things that's so amazing about Ann Wilson's voice today, to bring it back full circle.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 09, 2014, 08:07 AM
It also makes it difficult, depending on the music even impossible, for me to sing and play at the same time.

FWIW that is a very common situation with many, if not most, bass players. Bass players that can simultaneously sing acceptably while holding down a bassline seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Possibly too many brain centers engaged for most people (or at least bassists)  to handle at the same time.

Don't know if you've run into this as often as I have - but one of the first questions I usually got asked when auditioning as a bass player was: "Do you sing?" And if I answered in the affirmative, the very next question was: "At the same time?" Which I think nicely illustrates (a) playing bass while singing is not all that common; and (b) you can never have enough vocal talent in your band.

I do remember seeing (long time ago) an early draft study about something like "split roles" in musical performance that was trying to find what (if any) neurological basis there was for some musicians being able to handle multiple roles (instrumentalist/vocalist) in a musical context. I don't know if it was ever completed. Or if it was, and came to no conclusion. I tried a search but I can't seem to find anything. Maybe I just half remembered it from a conversation I had with one of my GF's cohorts when she was getting her Masters in experimental congnitive psych...
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 09, 2014, 09:33 AM
Wow.  It's nice to know that my inability to sing and play at the same time isn't an anomaly! 

(Actually, I find that *SOMETIMES* I can sing while I'm playing...but it's often that it's just a couple of vocal lines, then I have to go back to just playing)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 09, 2014, 09:36 AM
It also makes it difficult, depending on the music even impossible, for me to sing and play at the same time.

FWIW that is a very common situation with many, if not most, bass players. Bass players that can simultaneously sing acceptably while holding down a bassline seem to be the exception rather than the rule. Possibly too many brain centers engaged for most people (or at least bassists)  to handle at the same time.

Don't know if you've run into this as often as I have - but one of the first questions I usually got asked when auditioning as a bass player was: "Do you sing?" And if I answered in the affirmative, the very next question was: "At the same time?" Which I think nicely illustrates (a) playing bass while singing is not all that common; and (b) you can never have enough vocal talent in your band.

I do remember seeing (long time ago) an early draft study about something like "split roles" in musical performance that was trying to find what (if any) neurological basis there was for some musicians being able to handle multiple roles (instrumentalist/vocalist) in a musical context. I don't know if it was ever completed. Or if it was, and came to no conclusion. I tried a search but I can't seem to find anything. Maybe I just half remembered it from a conversation I had with one of my GF's cohorts when she was getting her Masters in experimental congnitive psych...


In my case it's a little more extreme than usual. I have almost no capacity for task switching, which essentially means I have to learn the vocals and bassline for a song as one single part, where some people can learn to simply (note that I call it simple rather than easy) switch from one to the other.

Ironically, if I could do that it would solve my problem of being able to be a front man. It's amazing the distance simply playing an instrument puts between me and the audience.

On an unrelated note, there's a funny story about the one song I used to sing lead on. When I started playing professionally, my new bandmates sat down with me and taught me about 30 simple 3 chord songs over the course of 2 days. They talked about playing Taking Care Of Business, but didn't know all the lyrics. I mentioned that I knew them, thinking I could be helpful and write them down, at which point they decided that should be the first song I would sing.

Fast forward a couple months. I've never even thought about singing anything besides backup vocals and although we all know Taking Care Of Business, we've never worked on it together. We have been playing 4 sets a night, 5 nights a week in a little out of the way hotel bar - usually to so few people it was more of an extended rehearsal.

One night a bunch of nursing students come in after final exams. After they've been drinking an hour or so, we're going on break and one of them catches up to me and asks if we play Taking Care Of Business. Without really even thinking about it, I told her yes, and from that night on I did.

Personally, I think we butchered it every time . Partly it was how bad I thought my oversimplified bassline sounded, and partly it was just the fact it's just hard to pull off with a 3 piece. It always went over well, though, which is ultimately the only thing that really matters.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 09, 2014, 12:36 PM
Wow.  It's nice to know that my inability to sing and play at the same time isn't an anomaly!  

Hope not. I can't really - and I am the last person in the world you'd consider unique! ;D

(Actually, I find that *SOMETIMES* I can sing while I'm playing...but it's often that it's just a couple of vocal lines, then I have to go back to just playing)

I sorta can. Just not very well. Certainly not what I'd consider performance worthy. But that never stopped Paul McCartney. Listen to an isolated Beatles bass line and you'll hear him muffing the time and hitting technically wrong notes all over the place. But it didn't matter. What he played worked within the context of the song. And he had that unique voice which never screwed up anything on the vocal tracks. Ever.

There's a lesson there I think.  8)

In my case it's a little more extreme than usual. I have almost no capacity for task switching, which essentially means I have to learn the vocals and bassline for a song as one single part, where some people can learn to simply (note that I call it simple rather than easy) switch from one to the other.

Ironically, if I could do that it would solve my problem of being able to be a front man. It's amazing the distance simply playing an instrument puts between me and the audience.

Even without the challenge you have I still can't very well. I can do harmonies just fine. And since I enjoy adding an occasional harmony part, as well as being able to come up with counter-melodies in my sleep, not being able to "take lead" doesn't bother me in the least. I have never once wanted to be the frontman in a group. Not my thing, although I have also never felt distanced from the audience. There's always one attractive woman in the crowd who is really into the bassline. I'll briefly make eye contact to say "hello," then spend the rest of the set playing for her. It's an approach to bass playing that has stood me in good stead over the years. Two guesses how much my guitarist GF is into the bassline...  ;)

I think my two biggest problems with playing bass and singing lead come down to (a) my early musical training; and, (b) a certain hangup I have...

When I was first taught an instrument, my instructor (an old school jazz man) had me sing everything I was going to play. His feeling was you needed to hear and feel in your innermost soul what you wanted to play on a bass. Once you could sing it, playing it became a "simple" matter of linking your hand to the voice you heard in your head. He described the process as "Linking your soul and heart and ears and hands with the mind of God." (He came out of a Gospel background so he used a good deal of religious imagery and metaphors when he taught.) When he was in a less divinely inspired frame of mind he'd say: "You gotta learn to sing through your instrument, kid. Everything else is just showin' or jerkin' off."

Whatever and however - it worked for me. If I hear it and I can sing or hum it - even just in my head - I can almost immediately play it. At least in most cases. Or with a try or two. But now the problem is, whenever I vocalize something (especially with lyrics), my hands immediately try to follow it. And there's few times when anything sounds more bozo than the bass suddenly playing the main melody in a song. Same goes for playing in parallel with the melody line (even for a bar or two) except (maybe) for emphasis. Or to create a special effect.

My previously mentioned hangup is I'm into tone. Almost to the point of mania. If I'm singing a lead line I want to primarily concentrate on vocal tone and expression. And the words. I myself can't do that while playing bass. Not enough brainpower or rapid task switching capabilities I guess. And when playing bass - as the bassist - I want to primarily concentrate on the bass tone. Doing a vocal harmony doesn't interfere (too much) with that. But I don't have to sing every song. Or sing all the way through it like the frontman or lead vocalist does. So I can put my hands on autopilot and do a harmony line for four or so bars without getting too antsy about it. But I never offer to sing. And I'll only do it when it's truly needed for the song. Or I'm not playing bass.

But that's me. I have my own take on the role and function of the bassist in a group. (Don't even get me started on my theory of "strut & glide"when it comes to creating a bass part! ;D We'll never get out of here.)

Take all this with many grains of salt. A nice Margaritas in fact. :) :Thmbsup:

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 09, 2014, 12:56 PM
Personally, I think we butchered it every time . Partly it was how bad I thought my oversimplified bassline sounded, and partly it was just the fact it's just hard to pull off with a 3 piece. It always went over well, though, which is ultimately the only thing that really matters.

Absolutely! That is the attitude of a professional performance musician regardless of the level of musicianship displayed. It's not just about us and what we think. What the audience expects (and gets) is the other part of the equation.

 :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 09, 2014, 01:13 PM
Unfortunately even when it comes to harmonies I'm mostly faking it when I play, but then again I also share your hangup when it comes to my playing. If my tone suffers or, even worse, if I lose the groove, I don't feel like anything my vocals could add would make up for it. As a recent suggestion for a bass player's t-shirt went, 'They're listening to you but they're dancing to me'.

Ironically, if I keep things ultra simple, like nothing but roots simple, I can hold the groove pretty well (on a few songs anyway) and still sing better than most. The problem is, knowing my own capabilities, I can never sing up to my own standards.

I could never play as well as I can sing, but I would never get on stage if I wasn't playing. Besides, there's just more value in being a serious bassist. At the end of the day, it's a no-brainer which one I should focus on.

Personally, I think we butchered it every time . Partly it was how bad I thought my oversimplified bassline sounded, and partly it was just the fact it's just hard to pull off with a 3 piece. It always went over well, though, which is ultimately the only thing that really matters.

Absolutely! That is the attitude of a professional performance musician regardless of the level of musicianship displayed. It's not just about us and what we think. What the audience expects (and gets) is the other part of the equation.

 :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:

Yep, if you want an audience - and once you've had one it's just too addictive for most of us to give up - you had better learn to understand how to make them happy.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 10, 2014, 07:43 PM
There are few music videos that have made me happier or feel more vindicated about something than this one. Capacitor types are something I have gotten into more pointless arguments over than anything else. The conclusion Joe Gore reaches is the same conclusion that I had reached years ago when it came to the tone capacitor type when used in passive guitar wiring.



Some interesting comments on the video can be found on Joe's webpage here (http://tonefiend.com/uncategorized/capacitor-smackdown/).

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on December 11, 2014, 07:08 AM
@theGleep: The first instrument you (re)finish will always be one of your favorites, regardless of how refined your work gets down the road. My son's 12 string tele is far from pro grade, IMO, but the fact that I made it when even I had doubts on its outcome (and even though the finish is far from what I would deem fit for selling, it plays and sounds beautiful, praise God!), it is my first. I offered to refinish it now that I know more about what I'm doing, but even my son loves it for it being the first one.

I, too, used the hanger method, though I'm thinking about cutting a 6-8" 1X3 to fit in the neck pocket, and attaching it to a mic stand with some conduit straps (no idea of their real name--those straps that hold conduit against the wall). That way I can twist it around as I apply the finish, and loosen the straps to slide it off for sanding.ake sure the wire goes through the body with plenty of extra so it won't slip off as you spin it around. It's happened to me, and ales for extra work.

Jeans are fine. On a nice day, I've sanded plenty of times with the body sitting on my lap while enjoying the sun. Definitely do your stain prep (alcohol and sanding) with gloves, and don't handle it bare handed until you move into the shellac phase. Shellac has great adhesion properties, especially  de-waxed shellac, so you won't have problems past there.

Ever clear is a great choice, with no toxins (a must when I work inside, we have 5 parrots)

Lifting the grain with the alcohol and lightly sanding the grain down has to be done just prior to staining. I'd do the grain lift both just prior to your prep coat and prior to your stain, to be on the safe side, though not much lift will occur if you get it all the first time.

I advise you is dewaxed shellac, for the best results. If you use shellac from a can, Zinsser has waxed and dewaxed. Most premixed shellac is made in a 3 lb "cut," or 3 lbs of shellac flake per gallon of alcohol. Go to http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/mixing-shellac.aspx to read the proper conversion to dilute it to about a 2 lb cut (you can store it in a mason jar). This will give you thin, glossy coats. I put a good 10-12 coats before sanding, to give plenty to rid myself of brush strokes. Take care that you don't sand through all your coats and hit your stain. Too much shellac is not a problem that sanding can't remedy. Too little can make a grown man cry.

Use wet-dry sandpaper and a lubricant Like mineral spirit or even a few drops of olive oil. I'd wait a week after your final coat of shellac if you aren't sanding  a little after 3 or 4 coats, but doing my shortcut method of many coats and sand. Otherwise, you can sand a day later and reapply until you get it smooth as glass. Don't apply pressure other than the weight of your hand, and inspect the paper for buildup frequently. Buildup will mar your finish like a grain of sand.

When you've got it sanded smooth, work up to at least 1500 grit paper. You can  buff then with a quality car polish like McGuires and use their swirl remover to finish it up. Or, after the sandpaper, apply a few coats of varnish, sand some more, then buff.

BTW, Merry Christmas to all, should I forget to post that later!

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on December 11, 2014, 07:13 AM
Should've proofread the last post, sorry for the many errors! ;-)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 11, 2014, 10:56 AM
@tjbray: Thanks for all the advice.  I read it three times.  I asked questions.  I re-read it.

Then I got so excited to get the job done that I just followed the directions on the MinWax cans...

That was before your last post.  :)

It's hanging in my basement right now, stained and dry ... I plan to start shellacking using an airbrush this weekend.

Maybe - if I can the right shellac, thanks to your advice in that last post.  Really.  I'll follow it this time.

:)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 11, 2014, 11:42 AM
Uh-oh.  I don't know if I can afford to do shellac right...how much would I actually need?  Is there another option that would be cheaper?

*** I could probably afford it if I were patient enough to wait for *next* payday.  But I think I've established my position on patience.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on December 11, 2014, 06:30 PM
@theGleep:  I've goy a dozen coats on this one, haven't used a cup. Especially since you'll be thinning it with alcohol to a 2 lb cut.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 12, 2014, 09:49 AM
@tjbray:  Well, that's good to know.  I suck at math, so I'm not sure - but 2oz of flakes gets me 2 cups, right?  I think I could afford that! 

At least to get started.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 12, 2014, 03:34 PM
@tjbray:  OK, I ordered 4 ounces of flakes...should have them within the week (I'm thinking Tuesday, since they're just a state away).

So - when it's time to apply, I could get thinner coats if I use an airbrush, right?  And they'd dry faster since they're thinner, right?

I'll be looking forward to your opinion on "noob using an airbrush to apply shellac" :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on December 12, 2014, 03:39 PM
I'm getting ready to move, so decided to look around, and there was a Music Resource Center in the area that provides music instruction + studio time to under-privileged kids in the area.  I've been taking this trombone with me from move to move... but I don't really play anymore.  I didn't even know if they'd want it, it's so old and dinged up, but it works.  The excitement that they had to get the instrument was worth way more than the sentimental value of keeping it around.

Just food for thought, as I'd not even thought about looking into it before now.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 12, 2014, 05:07 PM
There are few music videos that have made me happier or feel more vindicated about something than this one. Capacitor types are something I have gotten into more pointless arguments over than anything else. The conclusion Joe Gore reaches is the same conclusion that I had reached years ago when it came to the tone capacitor type when used in passive guitar wiring.



Some interesting comments on the video can be found on Joe's webpage here (http://tonefiend.com/uncategorized/capacitor-smackdown/).


His faces!  Hilarious!
Yes, i'm beginning to confirm BS on 90% of this audiophile stuff.  I'm pretty skeptical about anything not involving noise/hiss/distortion or something obvious like that.  But maybe I need to listen to them on better headphones.  Like these!  only roughly $10k for the headphones and required amp:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

I'm also observing that those who claim to hear things that I can't are also more *superstitious* than I am as well.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 13, 2014, 08:05 PM

I'm also observing that those who claim to hear things that I can't are also more *superstitious* than I am as well.

At least you were polite enough not to mention their webbed feet. ;D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on December 13, 2014, 09:43 PM
@theGleep: this is concert weekend for us, so I haven't been able to get on here. Your calculations are right, one good thing about going brushless is you won't have the  brushstroke issues, so you will sand off far less  waste than I do. I, too, have a patience deficiency, and when the time is available for me to work on a guitar, I can't rely on Ohio weather, so I just resolve to brush and sand my way to completion!
Expect the first coats to dry quickly. Even with a brush, the alcohol evaporates very quickly, and I'm  able to recoat  in an hour. I like to give the shellac extra time to cure before sanding ng. With my multiple  coats of 10-12, I wait a week. With an airbrush, you will be able to sand in a day, two tops.
I haven't had time to touch my project since last posting, and it's KILLING me!!!!

If you're interested in how my son's Skynyrd/Allman Brothers first show went (at the school, really more of a dress rehearsal), the Mason School of Rock page on Facebook has videos posted. He's the really tall guitarist on the far right on "Sweet Home Alabama" in the white flannel with blue/black stripes. Oh, the outright beautiful Les Paul style guitar he's using? I only wish I could claim building it! It's a Raven West Guitar. I am going to overhaul it this spring, however. Stainless frets, all new gold hardware, Page style wiring with a kill switch hidden under the pickguard for that staccato effect. Maybe a stainless guitar nut as well. My guitars I make nuts out of fret material, kinda my 'thing.'

I'm going to try to send you a copy of the forms I currently use for builds after I clean the bird cages to see if you think they can be put on a computer or tablet type program, even iphone for that matter. If I don't get to it today, I'll try to get it sent on Monday (I need to switch to a laptop!)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on December 14, 2014, 01:15 AM

I'm also observing that those who claim to hear things that I can't are also more *superstitious* than I am as well.

At least you were polite enough not to mention their webbed feet. ;D
Argh!  I don't get the reference.  You know how many hours of google research your posts have caused me over the years??
So...webbed feet, what is that?  A reference to luck?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 14, 2014, 02:25 AM
^Actually it's just a lame joke on my part. I was inferring they're mutants. Sorry. ;)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on December 14, 2014, 11:00 AM
@40hz: I just listened to the tone test Superboyac posted, that'll save me a few bucks down the road.
On that same note, I thought we should pass along that Guitar Fetish has a small supply of the Epiphone "Lucille" rotary switches with 5 or 6 different valued capacitors. A sure way to extract a slew of different tones from your guitar (though I hope they have enough in stock for me to pick up a few after Christmas.)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 14, 2014, 11:10 AM
@tj - same here! Thx for the heads-up. :Thmbsup:

And here's the schematic in case we miss it: ;D

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

If you're into tenor or cigarbox guitars, G.B. Gitty Crafter Supply (http://www.cbgitty.com/) now offers 3 and 4-string adjustable hardtail chrome  bridges for very reasonable prices:

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

"Changes everything" doesn't begin to describe what this will do for this sort of project.

GB is a good source for inexpensive parts for homebrew instruments. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on December 14, 2014, 03:07 PM
^ That shop looks handy just for the cigar boxes.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 14, 2014, 04:42 PM
.
^ That shop looks handy just for the cigar boxes.

They have some fun stuff. Nothing too expensive - plus some things you won't find most other places. I've bought from them before and have been very happy with their products and service.

BTW, it's amazing how good some people can make these little 3-string cigarbox guitars sound. Like Brook Williams when he does the old blues standard On Top of the World:



 8)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 15, 2014, 03:45 PM
@TJBray - I'll look forward to getting the forms (Might even have them already - haven't checked my messages). 

And I'll plan to do the airbrush thing...we've mentioned my patience deficiency, right?  But I'll be doing the work in my basement...probably really dusty, but I can actually *do* it :)  I'll just expect to have to sand dust bumps out.

If I'm airbrushing, should I maybe even go with a thinner mix?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on December 15, 2014, 09:33 PM

I'm also observing that those who claim to hear things that I can't are also more *superstitious* than I am as well.

At least you were polite enough not to mention their webbed feet. ;D

hehe... Lately I've taken to omitting the tone control altogether, and swapping the volume for a 3-position switch with resistor networks for full-on, 77% (give or take...), and full-off because I've noticed that playing style and amplifier choice have more to do with tone than anything capacitative in the guitar.   I've played awful guitars through amazing amps and was convinced I was a guitar god.  I've played amazing guitars through awful amps and thought the action was too high and the pickups weak.  At the moment I play a Squier Stratocaster upgraded to better hardware and custom pickup configuration, playing through a hand-made distortion pedal and Wal-mart bass amp.  I have to say I'm not blown away but totally not disappointed either.  

Also just recently proved to myself that imagination can DEFINITELY color your perception; just yesterday I fired up 'speaker-test (http://linux.die.net/man/1/speaker-test)' to test what I thought was some degradation in the sound of my stereo and ended up playing with my own head;  
Speaker-test will play white noise for a second through one channel, then another until you kill it.  As it ran, I listened for high frequency sound from the left speaker - lo and behold! the left speaker sounded brighter.  "Damn," I thought, "time to replace the caps in the pre-amp, the right channel's getting dull" but then I listened for the same frequency in the right speaker.  Damned if it didn't suddenly get brighter with more "air" and "definition" than the left speaker.  I slowly smiled to myself and spent the better part of the next ten minutes actively listening for different parts of the spectrum, and sure enough, they'd pop out like gremlins at my whim.  Mind you, I have a very nice stereo amplifier and decent speakers, so the frequencies were there to be heard, but it was amazing to see (hear?) just how much expectations will color your perceptions... frighteningly so, in fact.  

Now, I am quite aware that no amount of imagination is going to turn my '53 Fender Deluxe into a Marshall JCM 900, but at least I am dispelled of any myth that might suggest that putting a vintage Bumblebee cap in my '82 Bullet S-3 is going to turn me into Eric Clapton.
 :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 20, 2014, 08:13 PM
OK...finally something musical that may appeal to the broader tech crowd here. The creator of the iOS looping app called Loopy has started on its next iteration: Loopy Masterpiece Edition. He's invited his userbase and interested musicians to participate and follow along with the design process. And he intends to detail the entire development process in a blog (http://masterpieceedition.tumblr.com/) he's created.

Here's his introductory video:



Then his three part walkthru of LME: part-1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyKJ3UJ32tw), part-2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNooYuFcDHA), part-3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMgAkig-OZw)

Once you have what LME is all about under your belt, he moves into the software engineering behind how all this software magic is going to happen. This video will probably be quite useful to anyone who ever considered doing a serious music app. It shows just some of the thinking behind such products and is a decent example of an object oriented programming project.



Pretty fascinating, and well worth a watch, even for non-programmer musicians like myself.

There's more to read and see at the blog. I intend to follow this one closely. Recommended. :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on December 21, 2014, 11:03 AM
@theGleep:  Hmm..... I KNOW I replied several days ago to your post as I was getting ready to head out the door the other day, but I did so on my desktop, which badly could use reformatting, and it must've locked up. Kinda sad my iPhone is faster than this thing...

You're dead on regarding the flake to alcohol ratio. It will take a few days to completely dissolve, but it will.  When it does, I'd bet it is already thin enough to spray, depending on your rig.  If your gun is high pressure, low volume, Harbor Freight has a detail HVLP detail gun for under $20-$25 bucks that works great. I strongly advise adding a water filter to the line. I haven't sprayed shellac through my gun yet, but after this bass, I highly suspect I will. When it comes to brushwork, I'm no DaVinci, and it gets old sanding the lines down. I haven't had time to work on it for a week, knowing I won't be ordering the remaining parts until after the first of the year, so I haven't been feeling the rush to do so with Christmas at the doorstep.

You should be able to put coats on fairly quickly, given the speed the alcohol evaporates. I can't really give you a number to shoot for, it all depends on how thick you coat it each session, I would block sand by hand, so you don't risk going into the stain from oversanding, and remember that once you've got no shiny pits or valleys when you've sanded as close as you dare, you are glass smooth. Spray a couple more coats on to have a good base for polishing, and after curing, you will be set for either the Arm-R-Seal or your car polish, depending on your preference.

I'll look NOW for that invoice, I have at least one of the forms I'm looking to put in a program somehow, I may have to explain it in the email. My computer is acting up, so I need to get this posted. Good luck and Merry Christmas!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 22, 2014, 08:46 AM
@tjbray:  Thanks again for all the advice.  You have mail.

I'm thinking that what I'll do for the shellac is 3 coats per day, with a graduating "cure" time.  15 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour...(I guess that means four coats... :). 

And do a "block sand" each morning before starting again.  And I'll be trying for really thin coats. 

I have two HF "guns" - one big siphon feed HVLP spray painter (like, huge...this is the one I got to spray spider-killer around the exterior of the house).  The other one is th $10 airbrush - the one with multiple bottles, and the air blows over the spout in the top of the lid to suck the paint out.  This is the one I'm thinking to use for the bass.

I'll let you know how it goes - I *SHOULD* get my shellac today; but with mixing and dissolving time, it'll probably be Wednesday before I get to using it. :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 23, 2014, 09:16 AM
@tjbray (and anyone else following the story :) - So I got my shellac flakes...as soon as I got home, I put them into ever-clear (190 proof grain alcohol, in case you were raised by teetotalers like I was).  It's FULLY dissolved and I can't wait for my daughter's boyfriend to wake up (he sleeps in the basement where I'll be doing the work).

For my first batch, I went with a little less than a cup of alcohol (everything in the little $5 bottle) and an ounce of flakes.  Very near a 1lb cut. 

I will probably up it to a 1.5 cut for the next batch.

@40hz: (re vanilla) - So, I gave out little 1oz bottles of vanilla to my co-workers (wife did the same).  So I think I'm on to something.  Here's my recipe:
* Vanilla beans - I buy from Vanilla Products USA via Amazon (1/2 lb for around $35 ... I'm gonna email them and see if I can get a return customer discount...maybe even a referral discount.  Tell 'em I sent you and deserve it :) - the batch that did so well was "Madagascar grade B"
* 80 proof vodka (around $13 for the really cheap stuff, here in Utah)
* Clean 2 quart bottle (6 for $15 at the local wal-mart)

I used roughly 3 inches of bean for every tablespoon of vodka.  Didn't split them, just cut them into 1-inch (or less) chunks.  (this next time, I will put them in a food processor with the vodka and chop them up that way...not puree, just lots faster and a bit finer chopping).  I put that in the bottle - and *CLOSED THE BOTTLE* (maybe that last is obvious to everybody but me...my first batch I wasn't sure, so I put cheesecloth over top of it ... just didn't taste the same).

Wait a year or so.  Shake a LOT the first couple of weeks...then shake it whenever you remember about it.

When I was dishing it into the 1oz bottles, it smelled like alcohol instead of vanilla.  But the next day when a co-worker opened the bottle?  Oh, YUM!!!!

My wife said "Let's do that again...triple batch this time."

One last note: I put a couple of chunks of bean into each of the 1oz bottles so it would keep ?fermenting?  ?proofing? ?steeping?  Whatever it's called...as I was doing so, I noticed a couple of them actually had vanilla *syrup* dripping out the ends.  So I "squished" the beans as best I could into the remaining extract, added an extra $5 bottle of ever-clear (see above) and this time I put the cheesecloth on it (figuring the overdose of alcohol would really need to burn off).  This was a week ago, and even in the big bottle it's starting to smell really really good.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 24, 2014, 07:34 PM
@40hz: (re vanilla) - So, I gave out little 1oz bottles of vanilla to my co-workers (wife did the same).  So I think I'm on to something.  Here's my recipe:

Sounds really good! I'll have to give it a try after the holidays. Thank you so much for sharing your recipe. :Thmbsup:

I just started working on a liqueur based on Earl Gray tea and orange blossom honey as the primary flavoring ingredients. If it ever amounts to anything I'll be sure to let you know.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 26, 2014, 01:05 PM
@40hz:  Sounds interesting!  I tried some of the "young leftovers" in banana cream pie.  Worst batch of pie I've ever made.  I forgot the salt, and the liquor is too present.  Maybe if it sits a while longer, but I doubt it. :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on December 29, 2014, 02:08 PM
@theGleep: let me know how you felt the flow was through your gun at each cut you use. I'm seriously thinking of using a preval kit (a disposable spray can you fill with your paint /stain) to shellac the tele I'll be doing next. I may even try the Arm-R-Seal poly varnish through one, but I'm not sure I can clean it out good enough for more than one application. The preval will save me from heating up the garage or the shop in the barn, where my compressors are, and just set up in our basement.
I like the sound of your vanilla  project. Something I may get the wife interested in working on sometime with me!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on December 30, 2014, 08:44 AM
@tjbray:  I'm actually using an airbrush - the $10 from harbor freight, with 5 changeable bottles; the air blows over the nozzle for the bottle and sucks the shellac out.

It seems to work pretty well.  I've managed a few layers (6?) before I came down with the flu.  It seems to go pretty well - half a bottle (about 1oz bottles) per coat.  I'm still learning - got some sag, and bits of dust here and there; but I'm knocking it down with 400grit wet/dry.  As it gets thicker, I'll be moving up to 600 grit...maybe eventually something even finer.

I think I said before - I did one-pound cut for the airbrush.  Also, I'm being careful to clean out the nozzle each use by swapping to a bottle of just alcohol and spraying that for a bit.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on January 05, 2015, 12:56 AM
@theGleep: Hope you're feeling better. I never thought of using an airbrush. It sounds like far less sanding, and I'd guess overspray isn't much different than a HVLP detail gun. I'll have to pick one up for the tele build.
I have all my build's electronics on the way, still shopping for a better price on Hipshot Ultralight tuners and a drop d extender. With the sale of this build, I'll finally have enough in my hobby account to cover high dollar builds without coming from our regular account. Not having to balance my hobby/business with my Happy Wife life will surely speed my production up!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on January 05, 2015, 09:37 AM
@tjbray:  I'm liking how the airbrush works out.  Except for sag - but that's my lack of skill. :)

I'm thinking that what I'll do for the last few passes is to "hang" the body flat so that the shellac smooths itself out.  I plan to do this by putting the strap screws in (well...spare strap screws), hanging it from the screws and putting a hook of some sort to keep it stable.  If I'm spraing the front, the hook would be through the "pot holes" (heh-heh), and when I'm doing the back, I'll move the hook to one of the neck-mounting holes.

How many coats, overall, should I expect to do?  And would I double the number of coats since I'm using half-strength shellac?

Congrats on the hobby making enough money to sustain itself!

I've a couple of questions on the "app" - I'll email those offline.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on January 05, 2015, 10:16 AM
@theGleep@: If you don't intend on using a poly varnish seal over the top coat of shellac, just going for a shellac  finish, once you're able to block-sand the flat areas completely level -- you'll know this by not having any shiny dots where the paper hasn't touched -- I'd go one or two light coats more and you should be able to go with a light rubdown with MacGuires Polish, I'm not home, so I'm not sure the number, it should be just under swirl remover. Finishing with swirl remover would be your prerogative after that. If you're going by hand, I doubt it's necessary. I'll get to my email this afternoon or evening once I get home.

Another way you can hold it flat would be to screw a 1X2 to the neck slot using 2 of your neck screws,  and clamping or weighing down the end to a table or chair. No matter how you do it, be 100% sure it won't slide off, or you'll be repeating one of my mistakes!!! :-[
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on January 05, 2015, 10:32 AM
@tjbray:  Good idea!  That'll be lots easier.  Once I find my c-clamp :)

As to block-sanding...at this point, I don't have much actual flat surface, so I'm mostly finger sanding, but being careful to be a super-light touch.  As such, I don't tend to "dull" the whole surface.  Which is part of why I want to do the "flat" pass :)

I *am* finding it's pretty shiny even without doing all of the buffing. 

But I am considering a nitro-celulose top-coat, just to be careful (I *KNOW* I'll be bumping this thing against tables or whatever when I play it...I want as much protection for that as I can get :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 11, 2015, 01:34 PM
Here's something interesting for keyboard players who might have about $5K to spend on a keyboard controller. (Don't rush the checkout counter please! ;D)

This is a perfromance of Handel's 'Hornpipe' segment from Water Music. It's played by Mark Smart on a Haken Continuum Fingerboard (http://www.hakenaudio.com/Continuum/hakenaudioovervg.html) driving a custom setup on Native Instruments Reaktor software.

Very cool.



Uploaded on Oct 20, 2011

"Alla Hornpipe" from Handel's Water Music, Suite #2 in D major.

This performance is dedicated to the memory of my father Mervin Smart (1934-1991) who loved Handel's music.

In this multitrack recording, I'm using the Haken Continuum Fingerboard
(http://www.hakenaudio.com) to control a custom synthesizer built with
Native Instruments' Reaktor software (running on a Muse Receptor 2
for fast response). I used Cubase for the multitrack recording.

The left channel of the audio is the same take I'm playing in the video
(with some corrections). The Continuum surface is split in the Y
(front-to-back) direction so playing above the halfway point produces
a string sound and playing below it produces a brass sound. The
"Mono Interval" on the Continuum is set to 2, which means that when
you play notes more than 2 half-steps apart, you get two separate
notes, allowing you to play dual melody lines in thirds. But if you
play notes 1-2 half steps apart, you only hear whichever note you
are pressing the hardest, allowing half-step and whole-step trills.
So in the same take I can do the 2 Violins, 2 Trumpets, or 2 French
Horns by playing at different locations.

The right channel contains 9 additional tracks, also performed on
the Continuum driving Reaktor:

1. Violin 2 (when it's not playing along with 1)
2. Violin 3
3. Viola
4. Cello and bass (this is panned a little to center)
5. Oboe 1&2
6. Additional trumpet 1
6. Additional trumpet 2
7. Additional horn 1
7. Additional horn 2

In case you're wondering, my finger is injured and I wear a splint
on it to keep it straight. It's a repetitive stress injury from flipping
too many people off.

Haken Audio web site: http://www.hakenaudio.com/Continuum/

My web site: http://www.marksmart.net

More Continuum examples by me: http://www.marksmart.net/instruments/...

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Deozaan on January 11, 2015, 08:40 PM
This is a perfromance

I ain't gonna watch a video of a perv romance! :P
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 12, 2015, 07:17 AM
This is a perfromance

I ain't gonna watch a video of a perv romance! :P

Why not? You never know where you might learn something useful. ;) ;D

(Oh well...That's what I get for trying to do a long post with a lot of cut & paste on a smartphone.) :-\
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on January 15, 2015, 06:15 PM
I just finished putting some organ on my friends' tracks, for this upcoming album:
http://creativecolloquy.com/special-call-for-submissions-valentines-day-massacre-at-the-narwhal

So it's coming up soon!  It was a delightful track, if I do say so myself.  A sound we've been talking about for years.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 16, 2015, 12:09 PM
I just finished putting some organ on my friends' tracks, for this upcoming album:
http://creativecolloquy.com/special-call-for-submissions-valentines-day-massacre-at-the-narwhal

So it's coming up soon!  It was a delightful track, if I do say so myself.  A sound we've been talking about for years.

Sounds good! Keep us posted. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 20, 2015, 07:48 PM
New concert piano design. Pretty interesting. 8)

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 25, 2015, 10:33 AM
Are you still not playing a ukulele?

It's fun. It's cool. It's quite the thing.

Article (http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/01/though-it-be-little-the-rise-of-the-ukulele/384453/) over on at The Atlantic provides a good introduction to the Uke Renaissance.

...
Despite a long history that once included a reputation as an exotic and highbrow instrument, the ukulele has also endured decades of snubbing from both the pop music scene and the more cultured world of classical music. But with the help of trendsetters and tastemakers, it's making a strong comeback—the National Association of Music Merchants reported a 54 percent jump in ukulele sales in 2013—that can be traced in large part to the instrument's accessibility, affordability, YouTube popularity, and celebrity esteem.

The instrument's renewed appeal can be seen in the rise of ukulele music festivals, which have cropped up in places like Reno, Milwaukee, Napa, Port Townsend, Washington, and Rockville, Maryland. Take New Jersey's second annual Ukefest last August at the Morristown Unitarian Fellowship Hall, which kicked off with 86 beginners tackling their first piece, "Surfin' USA." During the festival, the rented church was awash with love for the novices—a kind of generosity rarely seen at a piano or guitar convention. “Strum with your index finger or thumb—whatever feels good,” ukulele teacher, author, and songwriter Jim Beloff told the beginners. “There are no ukulele police.”...

For an example of just how good a uke can sound, listen to master player Jake Shimabukuro performing his interpretation of While My Guitar Gently Weeps while visiting Strawberry Fields in Central Park NYC. No fancy effects, no recording studio, no big stage show...just a fine musician, a simple acoustic instrument, and open air.



There's a bunch of instructional (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_at_nglL3M) videos for ukulele up on YouTube if you want to give it a go.

Why not? 8)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on January 25, 2015, 01:57 PM
Jake Shimabukuro!  Wow!  Damn that was so good.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 25, 2015, 05:52 PM
Jake Shimabukuro!  Wow!  Damn that was so good.

Yup! He's one of the poster children for the "new" ukulele sound. And deservedly so IMO.

He's been called the Béla Fleck of the uke. Seems to be an equally nice guy too. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 26, 2015, 08:04 AM
re: Ukulele

So why not build your own? And why not a solidbody electric while you're at it?  :huh:



Link to download plans here (http://circuitsandstrings.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/electric-ukulele-plans1.pdf).
Link to Dan Hulbert's Circuits & Strings website here (https://circuitsandstrings.wordpress.com/). Great source for uke builders.

And since we have an electric solidbody, how about doing up a bass while we're at it?



Or if woodworking isn't your thing, maybe try using a detergent bottle for the body. A resonator is a resonator. Some sound better and work better than others. But they all do the same basic thing. Experiment! :Thmbsup:





Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 26, 2015, 08:20 AM
Of course there's also the Diddley Bow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diddley_bow) for people with no building skills or money. It's just a hunk of any wood you have lying around; any guitar string or piece of wire you can get your hands on; something to use as a bridge and nut (an old eye bolt, or piece of doweling, or a pencil stub are traditional); a screw (or whatever) for a 'tuning' key; and a pickup of some sort. Usually it's the cannibalized piezo element from an old buzzer or something like the microphone end of an old telephone...

After that it's up to you. Because the truth is: even "a piece of junk" can become a pretty remarkable musical instrument in the right hands. Here's Seasick Steve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasick_Steve), a Jedi master of junk instruments if there ever was one, showing what you can do with a Diddley Bow:



BTW: The Diddley Bow is a modern manifestation of the monochord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochord). A musical  instrument, teaching tool, and research device that dates back to classical antiquity. From that single string came much of what we know about the physics of music, the harmonic series, the geometric ratios of notes to one another, and pretty much everything else that passes for music theory to this day.

 8) :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Carol Haynes on January 26, 2015, 08:39 AM
Uploaded on Oct 20, 2011

"Alla Hornpipe" from Handel's Water Music, Suite #2 in D major.

This performance is dedicated to the memory of my father Mervin Smart (1934-1991) who loved Handel's music.

Know it dates back a while but just seen the video - cool!!

Sorry I haven't been around much over the last few months - been totally obsessed by my cello!!! (Also I get enough input about computers during the day). Played this Handel in a concert last week ;-)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 26, 2015, 08:54 AM
Sorry I haven't been around much over the last few months - been totally obsessed by my cello!!!

Understandable. Being a bass player, the cello (along with the saxophone) is an instrument I always wanted to take up. Imagine...to be able to play melody for a change...can such a world exist? :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Carol Haynes on January 26, 2015, 09:48 AM
Sorry I haven't been around much over the last few months - been totally obsessed by my cello!!!

Understandable. Being a bass player, the cello (along with the saxophone) is an instrument I always wanted to take up. Imagine...to be able to play melody for a change...can such a world exist? :)

Lots of nice melodies available fro the bass - just a shame they were mostly written for the cello and a damn sight harder to play on the bass.

Cello is inconvenient for travelling but pales into insignificance with double bass hassles (I used to play bass years ago)

My advice it take the plunge -  get a cello and go for it - apart from tuning you have a good head start from bass!!

It will be 2 years in March since my first lesson and the obsession become more urgent every day - now playing in 2 orchestras and various ensembles including a cello quartet (great fun) ....  :-*

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

From a concert last week - I am second from the right at the front
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 26, 2015, 11:08 AM
Cello is inconvenient for travelling but pales into insignificance with double bass hassles (I used to play bass years ago)

Couldn’t agree with you more about travelling with the double bass. And I never humped anything bigger than the 3/4 size. I can only imagine what a nightmare carting the awesome 4/4 would be like. In my "union member" days we used to get a flat "cartage" fee  on top of the hourly session fee if the client insisted on hiring someone to play the "doghouse." Needless to say, Leo's Precision and Jazz basses got very popular with booking agents once their clients realized they could save some coin by not automatically insisting on a "real" double bass.

My advice it take the plunge -  get a cello and go for it - apart from tuning you have a good head start from bass!!

The tuning isn't a problem in my case. I already use a few alternate tunings on bass and guitar (on those rare occasions I get to play one.) Cello also uses the same "Ron Carter" ascending-5th tuning a piccolo bass uses - so I'm right at home. It would be more a matter of adjusting to the different scale length for me. If I can't close my eyes and (almost) always fret (or stop in the case of cello) the note I'm looking for, I know I have some work ahead of me.

If you play electric bass, give the E A D♭ G♭ tuning a try. (Think top 4 strings of guitar!) It's rather amazing. It does make a few things slightly harder to play than they would be with standard E A D G tuning. And you lose some of that lovely fingering symmetry the standard ascending-4th tuning provides. But it makes more melodic passages noticeably easier and less fatiguing to finger. And it only takes about a half hour to get perfectly comfortable with if you've been playing for a few years - or you have a guitar background, as most of the truly lousy (kidding!) bass players do.

 :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tomos on January 26, 2015, 12:05 PM
It will be 2 years in March since my first lesson and the obsession become more urgent every day - now playing in 2 orchestras and various ensembles including a cello quartet (great fun) ....  :-*

wow, that's really impressive Carol!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on January 26, 2015, 03:24 PM
Cello is inconvenient for travelling but pales into insignificance with double bass hassles (I used to play bass years ago)

Couldn’t agree with you more about travelling with the double bass. And I never humped anything bigger than the 3/4 size. I can only imagine what a nightmare carting the awesome 4/4 would be like. In my "union member" days we used to get a flat "cartage" fee  on top of the hourly session fee if the client insisted on hiring someone to play the "doghouse." Needless to say, Leo's Precision and Jazz basses got very popular with booking agents once their clients realized they could save some coin by not automatically insisting on a "real" double bass.

I'm one of those guys that insists on a real bass!  Lol, that's always a tense discussion.  Here's a very nice story about the most famous bass I know of: Ray Brown's bass.  It happens to be right here in town, being played by his hand-picked protege, John Clayton (and I take lessons from his pianist!).  A bass player told me this instrument was referred to as "The Truck" for its size.
I've clipped the story below, it's a good read, from here:
(actually, reading this story, it sounds like the large original bass is with someone else.  Ray must have given Mr. Clayton his working bass, I'm guessing the smaller one.)
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/ray-browns-bass.168111/page-2
Spoiler
Ok, Here goes:

http://www.brentnussey.com/Ray_Brown_bass/RBbass1cr.jpg
I was so excited I forgot to comb my hair!
http://www.brentnussey.com/Ray_Brown_bass/RBbass2.jpg
http://www.brentnussey.com/Ray_Brown_bass/RBbassfront1.jpg
http://www.brentnussey.com/Ray_Brown_bass/RBbassfront2.jpg
http://www.brentnussey.com/Ray_Brown_bass/RBbass_back.jpg
http://www.brentnussey.com/Ray_Brown_bass/RBbass_scroll.jpg

The scans are a not so good, unfortunately. Somehow there’s too much blue in there. The wall behind the bass should be just off-white, but it’s kinda bluey. And they’re kinda blurry, compared to the (very sharp) real photos. Unfortunately, when I try to compensate for it, the pictures get weird artifacts. Maybe someone knows how to fix it… Oh well, I hope you get the idea. If I ever figure out how to make better scans, I’ll put them up.

I include the picture of me playing the bass for reference, I’m 170cm (5’7”) tall. The shoulders were really big and hard to get around, as Mr. Brown said. I played the bass with the pin all the way in, and it was still tough. But what a sound. Playing this bass was maybe the first time I understood that even though some basses had great recorded sounds, what you hear in the room as another thing entirely.

Mr. Lauder told me that when Ray moved to Toronto in the early 60’s, he’d had some close calls (damage) touring with the bass, and so they struck up a deal where Ray would take Murray’s bass on tour (“which was also a good bass, but not this good”) and Murray would play Ray’s bass around town. He did studio and pit work etc. When Ray would come back into town, and Murray got his own bass back, all the producers would ask him “Where’s that bass with the holes (in the tuners)?” Eventually, Ray bought another bass, by a guy named Silvestre, from a classical teacher of his, which he then traveled with. When Ray moved to LA in 1964, he called Murray towards the end of the year and asked if he wanted the big bass. According to Murray, Ray said that it didn’t work well in the studios, it was too loud and bled into the other mics, and was a PITA to carry around. So Murray bought her from Ray. He said when he got her she had all 4 gut strings. Eventually Mr. Lauder changed to metal and had a c-extension added. About a year after these pictures were taken, the bass was sold to Mr. Longenecker. Murray had told me he was going to sell it, and how much he was asking, but told me he wanted to sell it only to a member of the TSO, and that there was “a young fellow” in the TSO who needed a good bass. The last time I saw the bass in person was just after that sale, and the new owner had put a bridge with really long legs and very little wood above the heart on it. I don’t know Mr. Longenecker, but by all accounts he’s a great player and a nice guy, so maybe I’ll see the bass again someday socially.

So between my conversations with Mr. Brown and Mr. Lauder, the history of the bass is:

circa 1950: Ray finds the bass, with no bridge or strings, in a pawnshop or Mom&Pop music store in NY. He buys it for about 200 bucks (good money then) and takes it to a bass shop in the city, where the guy’s eyes light up, and Ray knows he has something special. Over the years he has it appraised a bunch of times, and he hears English, Italian, Scotch, etc. Then it turns out it’s a match for a bass known to be an Amati in England. The bass becomes reputed to be a circa 1640 Amati.

1959/1960: Ray moves to Toronto. Nervous about having his good bass damaged or destroyed in travel, he begins to trade basses with Murray Lauder when on the road. Eventually he buys another bass, by Silvestre, which he travels with.

1964: the Silvestre takes over as Ray’s main bass. Reasons are mainly that the big one is too big and difficult to play. Also, he thinks this bass sounds better with the new metal strings. In interviews at this time, Ray still refers to the big bass as “my best bass.” Ray moves to LA, to get off the road and become a studio musician. The big bass is more trouble to carry around, and to play, harder to record, and just plain sounds better with gut strings. Ray has decided to use metal. So for these reasons he decides to sell the bass to someone who already loves it, his old friend Murray Lauder.

early 1992: Murray, in semi-retirement, sells the bass to TSO bassist Dave Longenecker.

2002: Ray passes in July. Murray passes in September.

Postscript: The Amati assertion has always been controversial. I’ve talked to at least one guy who says the twin to Ray’s bass in England is now believed to be a Glassel, made in Marknukeurchen (sp?). To me that’s actually great news, there’s much more chance of finding another big Markneu…. bass than another Amati  :) But it doesn’t matter anyway. Mr. Brown always said to pick a bass, close your eyes and listen. If that’s the sound you like, then that’s the bass for you.

Brent

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 26, 2015, 04:18 PM
@SB - really interesting article. Didn't know some of that. Thx! :Thmbsup:


Ray knows he has something special. Over the years he has it appraised a bunch of times, and he hears English, Italian, Scotch, etc. Then it turns out it’s a match for a bass known to be an Amati in England. The bass becomes reputed to be a circa 1640 Amati.

Postscript: The Amati assertion has always been controversial. I’ve talked to at least one guy who says the twin to Ray’s bass in England is now believed to be a Glassel, made in Marknukeurchen

*Mini very rational 40hz rant follows. Please feel free to ignore.*

So typical with orchestral basses.  :-\ The disputes that break out over exactly what a given bass is.  :P

My GF's Mom is a very good violinist who played with several local orchestras. She had (allegedly - although they were both appraised and blessed off as being genuine by some big name string instrument appraisers in New York City) a Ceruti (who was a famous student of Amati) and a Guarneri. They're both fine violins with lovely but very different characters. Not the most beautiful I've ever heard. But they're up there. Especially the Guarneri. However, I've heard some modern instruments I've actually liked better. And those had neither the fancy pedigree - nor the nose-bleed inducing price tags - her two violins had. And let's not even get started on the bows - which are a whole other business and topic for debate!

I guess I just don't get it. Either when it comes to Cremona violins - or '57 Stratocasters for that matter. As long as something sounds good, is responsive, and plays well, I could care less who made it...or when...or where. But that's me. Which is to say I'm a working musician rather than an investor in rarities. Or an instrument collector.

Probably the only thing (besides transportation hassles) that I was actually glad to get away from, when I got away from playing string bass, was the mystique and nonsense surrounding the instrument itself. Sure, better instruments made by better makers (using better materials and construction methods) sounded better than those that were not. But I can't really see or hear anything that justifies some of the reputations or astronomical prices many of these "fine instruments" fetch. I have heard one or two (played by some famous players) that were amazing. But there weren't that many. Certainly not enough of them to create the industry which exists to buy and sell these things.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Sad thing is, that same nonsense is coming to the world of electric bass. There's already the 'collectable instrument' feeding frenzy starting to develop around the '60-'62 Fender Jazz and '58-'60 Fender Precision basses along with Gibson Thunderbirds from the early 60s...

I mean what is with these people? These are mass-produced manufactured instruments. In the case of Leo Fender's instruments, they were acknowledged (by Leo himself) to be designed to be as easy and cheap to manufacture as was humanly possible. Even those vintage paint jobs so prized by Fender collectors were the result of his using automotive paints purchased in odd lots from a company that was conveniently located just down the road from the Fender factory. There's a half-joke at Fender that says if house paint was as readily available, and a nickel cheaper a gallon, Leo would have used that instead.

Maybe I'll follow Carol's lead and just switch to cello. ;)

In the case of Ray Brown, I think it wasn't so much the bass itself as it was the bass + Ray Brown. Because the "thing" isn't the instrument (which is just an inert pile of metal, wood, and potential) OR the player (which is heap of DNA, biomass, and spirit) but the combination that really makes whatever magic there is.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Ok, I'm done! Carry on. ;D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Carol Haynes on January 26, 2015, 07:50 PM
wow, that's really impressive Carol!

Thanks.

On instruments - modern Chinese string instruments seem to be getting there these days at affordable prices.

I bought a Chinese cello (list price around £1400, ~$2100 US) and as a student instrument it is very impressive. My teacher really likes it and I showed it to another teacher who didn;t know the history or make and she thought it was probably worth about £5000. Like all instruments there are better and worse instruments so you have to be careful.

There is a lot of snobbery about instruments and where they come from - people pay a premium just for a name. There have been Stad violins that have been more or less destroyed and then restored and they still go for silly prices even though they are mostly not Strad (and the bits that are are glued together!).

In blind testing people are often surprised at what they actually like best.

Bows are similar - some shops/dealers have trial schemes and suggest you try a bunch for a while - often it isn't the most expensive bow that sounds best though I have to say bows are a bit of a black art! Just bought a new bow which I am very pleased with but it was a nerve-wracking minefield!!


40Hz - if you can play instruments tuned in 5ths I reckon it takes about an hour to adapt to the new spacing. I have tried various cellos and they are all a bit different in size (even full size varies enormously) but I have tried 3/4 and 7/8 models too. It is surprising how quickly you adapt!

So long as you are not using German bowing on the bass cello bowing is similar but obviously lighter and more responsive than on a bass.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 26, 2015, 08:21 PM
40Hz - if you can play instruments tuned in 5ths I reckon it takes about an hour to adapt to the new spacing.

Sounds good. Besides, ascending-4ths are just descending-5ths going in the opposite direction on bass. ;D It's not that a big mental stretch to grok or use it. Most guitar players are amazed they can strum a mandolin once you tell them it's tuned like the bottom 4 strings of a guitar except going in the opposite direction. So if you use the bottom 4 strings of a guitar chord in a mirrored pattern, there's your mandolin chords!

Music is so mathematical. Probably why it's one of the few things in the world that makes absolute sense to me. ;D

re: Chinese builds

I agree. It's amazing. Any import I've seen from China that sports somebody else's name (Fender's "Modern Player" series for example) rivals or exceeds its US built counterpart. And for about one third the price. I just recently bought an electric bass made in Indonesia for Fender's Squier subsidiary label. This model is called the Vintage Modified Jaguar Bass Special. (Is somebody in marketing being paid by the word?):

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

I wanted a "mainstream sound" sort of instrument, intended for use as a low-risk (i.e. "sacrifice") road bass. Turns out it's astonishingly good. The rave reviews it's gotten are spot on IMO. It's not just an inexpensive bass ($199 USD delivered!) that's "good for its price range." It's actually a rather nice instrument that is more than good enough for professional use either on the stage or in the studio. I like it so much I'm thinking of getting a second one as a backup.

Imagine...two quality instruments for the combined price of approximately five sets of Tomastik-Infeld flatwound strings. The mind boggles! :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on January 26, 2015, 09:18 PM
Speaking of which, have you seen the prices of Tokai and Samick instruments lately?  Some folks got wind of the fact that some big name manufacturers have at some points in time secretly been using those guys to build their "limited-edition" and even some fill-in production runs, so now there's bidding wars on what used to be seen as cheap asian knockoffs.  
So it goes...  :-\
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on January 26, 2015, 11:13 PM
@SB - really interesting article. Didn't know some of that. Thx! :Thmbsup:


Ray knows he has something special. Over the years he has it appraised a bunch of times, and he hears English, Italian, Scotch, etc. Then it turns out it’s a match for a bass known to be an Amati in England. The bass becomes reputed to be a circa 1640 Amati.

Postscript: The Amati assertion has always been controversial. I’ve talked to at least one guy who says the twin to Ray’s bass in England is now believed to be a Glassel, made in Marknukeurchen

*Mini very rational 40hz rant follows. Please feel free to ignore.*

So typical with orchestral basses.  :-\ The disputes that break out over exactly what a given bass is.  :P

My GF's Mom is a very good violinist who played with several local orchestras. She had (allegedly - although they were both appraised and blessed off as being genuine by some big name string instrument appraisers in New York City) a Ceruti (who was a famous student of Amati) and a Guarneri. They're both fine violins with lovely but very different characters. Not the most beautiful I've ever heard. But they're up there. Especially the Guarneri. However, I've heard some modern instruments I've actually liked better. And those had neither the fancy pedigree - nor the nose-bleed inducing price tags - her two violins had. And let's not even get started on the bows - which are a whole other business and arena for debate!

I guess I just don't get it. Either when it comes to Cremona violins - or '57 Stratocasters for that matter. As long as something sounds good, is responsive, and plays well, I could care less who made it or when or where. But that's me. Which is to say I'm a working musician rather than an investor in rarities or an instrument collector.

Probably the only thing (besides transportation hassles) that I was actually glad to get away from, when I got away from playing string bass, was the mystique and nonsense surrounding the instrument itself. Sure, better instruments made by better makers (using better materials and construction methods) sounded better than those that were not. But I can't really see or hear anything that justifies the some of the reputations or astronomical prices many of these "fine instruments" fetch. I have heard one or two (played by some famous players) that were amazing. But there weren't that many. Certainly not enough to create the industry that exists to buy and sell these things.
 (see attachment in previous post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=39027.msg374319#msg374319))
Sad thing is, that same nonsense is coming to the world of electric bass. There's already the 'collectable instrument' feeding frenzy starting to develop around the '60-'62 Fender Jazz and '58-'60 Fender Precision basses along with Gibson Thunderbirds from the early 60s...

I mean what is with these people? These are mass-manufactured production instruments. In the case of Leo Fender's instruments, they were acknowledged (by Leo himself) to be designed to be as easy and cheap to manufacture as was humanly possible. Even those vintage paint jobs so prized by Fender collectors were the result of his using automotive paints purchased in odd lots from a company that was conveniently located just down the road from the Fender factory. There's a half-joke at Fender that says if house paint was as readily available, and a nickel cheaper a gallon, Leo would have used that instead.

Maybe I'll follow Carol's lead and just switch to cello. ;)

In the case of Ray Brown, I think it wasn't so much the bass itself as it was the bass + Ray Brown. Because the "thing" isn't the instrument (which is just an inert pile of metal, wood, and potential) OR the player (which is heap of DNA, biomass, and spirit) but the combination that really makes whatever magic there is happen.
 (see attachment in previous post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=39027.msg374319#msg374319))
Ok, I'm done! Carry on. ;D
Good read man!  glad to hear it coming from an experienced bass player, too.  It's so hard for me sometimes to deal with these kinds of music pseudo-science debates!  It's even hard to ignore...once the question is raised, you start to wonder, lol!  Why shouldn't a new bass sound better than an old one?  Because it wasn't hand crafted by the one master that ever lived?  Man, so many of these kinds of conversations with musicians.  I know for sure I've run a couple past you...regarding digital vs analog, recorded vs samples, etc.
And great point...the bass is good because ray brown preferred it.  Not because it's the best...it could be very average!  Like Willie's guitar, Trigger.  He didn't even give that up when the IRS came knocking.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Carol Haynes on January 27, 2015, 03:30 AM
Imagine...two quality instruments for the combined price of approximately five sets of Tomastik-Infeld flatwound strings. The mind boggles!

That bass is considerably cheaper than my cello strings :-)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 27, 2015, 07:51 AM
Imagine...two quality instruments for the combined price of approximately five sets of Tomastik-Infeld flatwound strings. The mind boggles!

That bass is considerably cheaper than my cello strings :-)

Yes. Amazing isn't it?

Same goes for electric bass strings. Most top tier strings run between $22 and $35 for a 4-string set in standard lengths and materials. The Tomastiks I mentioned are one of the rare exceptions (Pyramid and Optima being the other two I know about) that run for around $80 on the street. Mostly because they can. (They are very nice strings. But whether they're worth that ~100% premium is something I'll leave for the individual purchasing a set to say.) However, Tomastik (of Vienna mind you!) has its roots in orchestral strings, so it's to be expected I suppose.

Perhaps the fact that most fretted instrument players change their strings more frequently than once every ten or so years has something to do with those lower prices? ;)

Do quality orchestral strings, like those Pirastro Olivs my GF's mother favored (if memory serves) still command those princely sums? :o
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Carol Haynes on January 27, 2015, 09:00 AM
These are the strings I am using:

http://www.thestringzone.co.uk/evah-pirazzi-soloist-cello-strings-set

It took a lot of experimenting - I have been through 4 sets of strings (not all that sort of price) in just under two years.

One set I got as a free sample (they were priced over £200 but free was far too expensive for them - they stayed on for 2 days and then were gone - not even useful as spares!), one set I got at 30% cost from the manufacturer (the ones I am using - but I have already had to replace the A string because I wore it out).

These are the ones I would like to try ... http://www.thestringzone.co.uk/larsen-magnacore-cello-strings-set

Also getting through lots of bow rehairs - I play a lot :-)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 27, 2015, 10:58 AM
Speaking of which, have you seen the prices of Tokai and Samick instruments lately?  Some folks got wind of the fact that some big name manufacturers have at some points in time secretly been using those guys to build their "limited-edition" and even some fill-in production runs, so now there's bidding wars on what used to be seen as cheap asian knockoffs.  
So it goes...  :-\

Same goes for those flashy and sometimes bizarre Tiesco Del Rey guitars from Japan that you saw in pawn shop windows, or off in the dark corners of music stores back in the 60s and 70s. These were mostly bought by well-meaning but clueless parents who wanted to stop their kid's whining about getting an electric guitar - but who couldn't afford a "professional" instrument like a Gibson, Gretsch, or Fender.

Too bad they usually wound up abandoned in attics until they were completely ruined, or just tossed in the dumpster. They were actually pretty decent guitars for the times. And they had their own unique sound. They're fetching good money these days. Some models (i.e. the Spectrum series) in very good "playable" condition sell for up to $5K (and more) on the collector's market.

I mean LOOK at this thing! Especially the headstock and that multi-colored (hence the name 'Spectrum') accordion-style locking multi-slide switch for a pickup selector. It's so ridiculously bad that it's fantastic! What's not to like?

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

There's a company called Eastwood (http://www.eastwoodguitars.com/) that does affordable but rather unusual guitars that are...I dunno...inspired?...by some of these weird old instruments. This is the Ichiban (trans: Number One!) that captures a lot of that old Tiesco "Cal Surf" sound if you've never heard one:



BTW - I don't know if this was the case everywhere, but most of those old school music shops that were around when I was a kid were only a half step up from being pawn shops. The most popular establishment where I lived even had a permanent card game going in the back "rehearsal" room.

Bunch of scruffy looking VW Bugs and beat up cars parked in front, with impoverished looking long-haired young folks in the showroom. And a lot of comings and goings of business-suited older guys who were driving big black sedans in and out of the fenced-in back parking lot - which was under the watchful eyes of this burly guy called "Nick." There was also an extensive accordion section in the center of the showroom....

Feel free to draw what conclusions you will. Definitely a "family" business. ;D

Ah! Those were the days...Not! ;) 8)

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on January 27, 2015, 03:19 PM
Speaking of which, have you seen the prices of Tokai and Samick instruments lately?  Some folks got wind of the fact that some big name manufacturers have at some points in time secretly been using those guys to build their "limited-edition" and even some fill-in production runs, so now there's bidding wars on what used to be seen as cheap asian knockoffs. 
So it goes...  :-\

My understanding is that the price hike is actually coming almost entirely from Japan. Some time in the last couple decades a major collector's market developed and speculators started buying them as investments. It probably did start with the pre-Fender lawsuit Tokais, which were somewhat collectible already in the US.

If I'm not mistaken, when Tokai began building Fender instruments for the Japanese markets, they dropped their copies altogether. That would likely have driven prices for their pre-Fender instruments through the roof and sent people who couldn't get their hands on one looking for other "classic" Japanese brands.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 28, 2015, 09:43 AM
This video serves two purposes. (1) To show the formidable talent of a very fine bass player by the name of Tal Wilkenfeld; and (2) to show some of the condescending attitude (usually masquerading as faint praise) that women in the music world still face when they elect to play "an unusual instrument for a young lady" rather than just sing, play acoustic guitar, or shake some booty.  :-\



Melanie nailed it when she penned that classic line in the song Brand New Key:  "Some people say, I done all right for a girl"

Here's a better one. As far as bass goes, Tal gets it. She finds the pocket and slots right in to a mostly supporting role - but still with a just the right amount of artistic flair in those places where it fits. That level humility and good taste - in the service of the song - isn't something that can be easily taught if it's not there to begin with. Too bad Jeff Beck sorta ruins it with a somewhat excessive (as is his wont) bit of guitar work. The two ladies definitely put on the better performance in this one.



And it's also nice to see that when the time comes to take the center stage, Tal (with her utterly impeccable technique and tone!) is more than up to the task. Even with a moron (whom she doesn't seem to mind) horning in to do some party tricks... Seriously Jeff? Seriously? Could you just for once get the **** out of the way and let somebody else play something?  That G-G <rest> F#^G thing you're doing - and plucking way too hard* - adds nothing that couldn't just as easily have been handled by the kick drum. In the background.




 8)

------------------------------------------

* Looks like she's playing a Sadowsky bass there Jeff. They're very touch sensitive instruments. You don't need to beat on them to get them to bark or growl...
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tomos on January 28, 2015, 01:24 PM
^enjoyed those videos.
Interesting for a non-musician music-lover to learn a bit from a musician's perspective.

Even with a moron (whom she doesn't seem to mind) horning in to do some party tricks... Seriously Jeff? Seriously? Could you just for once get the **** out of the way and let somebody else play something?  That G-G <rest> F#^G thing you're doing - and plucking way too hard* - adds nothing that couldn't just as easily have been handled by the kick drum. In the background.

Lol, I couldnt watch after about a minute of that :-/

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 28, 2015, 01:31 PM
@Tomos - Yeah. He's botching the friggin' beat too... And she seems like such a nice kid. That little happy smile she flashes when she gets that smattering of applause is adorable.

What a dork to be working for. (Nice dye job or wig you got there Jeff! Even kids in the third world, who never saw so much as a TV set, would take one look and say: "Look Mommy! Man wearing rug! Rug!") >:D

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of Jeff Beck. :P

(BTW: He's playing G-G <beat> F^G - not F#. My bad. :-[ )

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on January 29, 2015, 04:59 PM
@Tomos - Yeah. He's botching the friggin' beat too... And she seems like such a nice kid. That little happy smile she flashes when she gets that smattering of applause is adorable.

What a dork to be working for. (Nice dye job or wig you got there Jeff! Even kids in the third world, who never saw so much as a TV set, would take one look and say: "Look Mommy! Man wearing rug! Rug!") >:D

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of Jeff Beck. :P

(BTW: He's playing G-G <beat> F^G - not F#. My bad. :-[ )
I am really enjoying your animosity towards Jeff Beck, 40.
I didn't know about this Wilkenfeld lady.  Let me just say this personally...she is soooooo attractive.  holy cow.  The first girl i fell in love with as an adult had hair like that.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 29, 2015, 05:42 PM
^ She is a pretty sweet person to say nothing of being rather nice to look at too. Her CV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tal_Wilkenfeld) is extremely impressive. So much so I make it a point not to say "young" or "female" in the same sentence with her name and the term "bass player." She not a fine <fill in the blank> bass player. She is a superb bass player. Period.

And at the ripe old age of 28, she has a long career ahead of her. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on January 29, 2015, 06:10 PM
^ She is a pretty sweet person to say nothing of being rather nice to look at too. Her CV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tal_Wilkenfeld) is extremely impressive. So much so I make it a point not to say "young" or "female" in the same sentence with her name and the term "bass player." She not a fine <fill in the blank> bass player. She is a superb bass player. Period.

And at the ripe old age of 28, she has a long career ahead of her. :Thmbsup:
It's funny you mention that, because I actually had to go back and edit the phrase "Wilkenfeld chick lady" for the same reason.  Yea, no question...she's the real deal.  I'd very much like to hear this thing she's done with Jackson Browne.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on January 30, 2015, 07:57 AM
I'm always looking for female musicians because I think it's good for my daughters who play bass. Tal Wilkenfeld is definitely one of the best. I'm also a big fan of the Haim sisters, particularly Este Haim. It's not just because she's a bassist either. Anybody who can make Mustang Sally sound fresh and interesting is a top notch player in my book. Their parents are no slouches either.



She also has the best bass face (http://imgarcade.com/1/este-haim-bass-face/) in the business.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 30, 2015, 08:36 AM
She also has the best bass face (http://imgarcade.com/1/este-haim-bass-face/) in the business.

LOL! Is that what they call that grimace so many bass players do? ;D ;D ;D

Learn something new every day! :Thmbsup:

For the record: I'm more the Joe-Gore-vacant-deadpan type myself. Or at least when I'm not glaring at a fellow band member who is screwing up the beat - or is doing the: "Wow! I'm really blowing everybody away with THIS extended solo!!!..." thing. You can almost see the thought balloon go up when they decide to pull that nonsense. And just before they start, they invariably look over at their bass player with 'that look' that screams - "Gimmee a lot of BASS!!!"

Nice to know we bassists are considered 'just the thing' when it comes time to cover up a guitarist's sins. ;)

And people wonder why I'm so clumsy on a crowded stage that I accidentally bop bandmates on the side of their skulls (with the head of my bass - oops!) as often as I do?

Yeah...I definitely need to be more careful.  :-\


----------------------------------
@V - re: the Haim ladies. Agree 100%. Anything done in an attempt to improve Mustang Sally can hardly be a bad thing in my book. I personally can't stand that song. (Same thing goes for Sweet Jane.)  I swear next time I get asked to play either of those two I'm gonna plug into a looper and record about a minute's worth, hit repeat, and then go get a fresh draft over at the bar... Cheers guys! Carry on.  :Thmbsup: :P
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 30, 2015, 10:47 AM
I am really enjoying your animosity towards Jeff Beck, 40.

It's not so much that. (Ok...maybe it is.) But I mean look... she's a superb bassist...her credentials are impeccable, so there's no need to do the débutante thing for her when she's on stage. The lady sounds and looks the part - and she has one of those really cute girl-stomp things going (more on that later) when this ageing ninny moves in, screws the beat, plus adds some bad sound to something that didn't need anything else - and would have been far better (and I'm guessing got the woman a great deal more applause) if he just allowed things to run on their own merits.

Jeff doesn't need anything to bolster his (somewhat unjustified IMO) fame or place in the history books of rock & roll. So it's not like he needs to rub himself on her for good luck like Sheryl Crow's husband (a big producer) did for his comely Sheryl when he got her paired up on stage and TV with everybody who was anybody when she decided to make a go of it. Ms. Wilkenfeld has a friggen' 'rep' for heaven's sake. She had established "studio cred" by the bloody age of 20!

So maybe Tal is Jeff's good luck talisman these days? Her now famous 2007 performance with an uncharacteristically considerate Jeff Beck at the Crossroads Festival did more for Jeff's career (most people were already fairly tired of him) than it did hers. Or so I think. But I could well be wrong about all this. My long standing dislike of all things 'Jeff Beck' (the 'whys' of which are not worth going into) sometimes tends to cloud my normally more rational thought processes.

Re: the girl-stomp thing:

Musicianship is performance art as well as a musical ability.

A good performer invites the audience into their world to let them see a bit of what they're experiencing. It builds audience engagement. And it's the courteous thing to do since many people (who are not musicians) are extremely interested in that thing we do. So by letting the audience in, you educate (and in the best possible situations) provide an impetus for them to someday become musicians themselves.

Because the truth of the matter is (as musicians) we're still pretty much a guild - complete with it's traditions, and 'secret' lore, and rituals and regalia...a pecking order...and all that other nonsense. So "opening up the kimono" is something most audience members appreciate.

If you check out some of her other performances, you'll generally see her do a little dance or bop to give the audience and idea of where she's coming from beat-wise. Or she'll play something very fine, then the look up at the audience and shoot a quick smile that seems to say (in a non-condescending manner) "Did you catch that? Do you see what I'm trying to say with this song?"

That's pure performance. And simple courtesy to your listeners.

Add that to demonstrable musical talent and sophistication, a shy little smile that'd melt the Grinch, and the sort of looks and mannerisms that hits the average libido with all the gentleness of a baseball bat, and you have a complete performance package. There aren't too many performing musicians who can (or can be bothered) to put it all together like that.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

If I sound impressed, it's because I am.  ;) ;D

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on January 30, 2015, 12:35 PM
So maybe Tal is Jeff's good luck talisman these days? Her now famous 2007 performance with an uncharacteristically considerate Jeff Beck at the Crossroads Festival did more for Jeff's career (most people were already fairly tired of him) than it did hers. Or so I think. But I could well be wrong about all this. My long standing dislike of all things 'Jeff Beck' (the 'whys' of which are not worth going into) sometimes tends to cloud my normally more rational thought processes.
I remember this!  And i think you are exactly right!  That crossroads performance had me thinking about jeff beck more so than anything else i can think of.  I have to go back and watch it.

I know "underrated" can be used to describe any instrument in a band, but a great bassist does typically tend to be underrated.  I've probably learned more from bass players than any other instrument.  They tend to explain things better.
It's interesting that as pop music continues to evolve, it's the bass that is getting louder and louder, while everything else is fading away, along with  melodies, songs with more than two chords or measures (lol).
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on January 30, 2015, 12:47 PM
She also has the best bass face (http://imgarcade.com/1/este-haim-bass-face/) in the business.

LOL! Is that what they call that grimace so many bass players do? ;D ;D ;D

Learn something new every day! :Thmbsup:

It was a new one on me too. From the references I've found, it seems like something that became a meme after she appeared on SNL.

For the record: I'm more the Joe-Gore-vacant-deadpan type myself. Or at least when I'm not glaring at a fellow band member who is screwing up the beat - or is doing the: "Wow! I'm really blowing everybody away with THIS extended solo!!!..." thing. You can almost see the thought balloon go up when they decide to pull that nonsense. And just before they start, they invariably look over at their bass player with 'that look' that screams - "Gimmee a lot of BASS!!!"
Nice to know we bassists are considered 'just the thing' when it comes time to cover up a guitarist's sins. ;)

And people wonder why I'm so clumsy on a crowded stage that I accidentally bop bandmates on the side of their skulls (with the head of my bass - oops!) as often as I do?

Yeah...I definitely need to be more careful.  :-\

I'm just the opposite. I pull all kinds of bizarre faces when I'm playing, except when I'm too focused on covering up for a wanking guitarist or, worse yet, a drummer who can't lock into the proper beat. I do have clumsy down pat though.

I also have a theory about why there are so many stoic bassists. There are only so many things the human brain can focus on (or switch between technically) and you have to do a lot more listening to play bass well. As torturous as that can make it when you're covering for sloppy musicianship, it's also an essential part of what makes the bass interesting to me. A guitarist usually plays the same part every time, no matter who he's working with. I get to change it up to fill in whatever the song needs.

----------------------------------
@V - re: the Haim ladies. Agree 100%. Anything done in an attempt to improve Mustang Sally can hardly be a bad thing in my book. I personally can't stand that song. (Same thing goes for Sweet Jane.)  I swear next time I get asked to play either of those two I'm gonna plug into a looper and record about a minute's worth, hit repeat, and then go get a fresh draft over at the bar... Cheers guys! Carry on.  :Thmbsup: :P

11 out of 10 bassists agree with this sentiment. If you want to clear out a room full of musicians in a minute or less, Mustang Sally will generally do the trick. If there's anybody left at the end of the song, you can follow it up with Johnny B Goode. If they're not gone when that's done, it's time to call an ambulance.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on January 30, 2015, 01:07 PM
stoic bassists...lol.  Yeah, that is a thing.  It's true about the listening thing, maybe that's why it seems the bassists are better at explaining stuff to the other members, because they listen better?  I also struggle with any kind of extra ornaments when I play because it's hard enough for me to listen to everything and process it all.  Maybe when I'm more of a pro I can let that go and do more intentionally interactive things.
regarding pianists, I'm sure you've seen those players that hum or make more obnoxious sounds as they play (Keith Jarrett, Oscar P, etc).  Well, I've often been given advice that humming is a good way to learn or develop as a player. But it's never worked for me.  Then I was reading a book that basically said DON'T do the humming thing, just play it.  The humming really doesn't help, and it's best to avoid developing the habit.  And everything else the author explains hit home to me so I'm in that camp now.
It just seems hard to do all the extra stuff without affecting the quality of the music.  Often times, the best performances I've seen were pretty stoic all around.  I'm talking about the quality of the music...it definitely would be considered boring to those who don't have the ear for it.
I really love and laugh a lot when I watch Count Basie.  So extremely minimal and subtle.  An eyebrow raise here and there, a look, perhaps a small gesture.  lol.
here's a video of Jimmy Forrest blowing his brains out on Night Train.  Basie approves...you can tell with his emphatic nodding @1:32 (emphatic for basie, that is, hardly noticeable to normal people).
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tomos on January 30, 2015, 01:32 PM
I really love and laugh a lot when I watch Count Basie.  So extremely minimal and subtle.  An eyebrow raise here and there, a look, perhaps a small gesture.  lol.
here's a video of Jimmy Forrest blowing his brains out on Night Train.  Basie approves...you can tell with his emphatic nodding @1:32 (emphatic for basie, that is, hardly noticeable to normal people).
:-*

@Vurbal, I really enjoyed Haim - Jools Holland says they were the big thing of 2013, but I've only come across them now. Been listening to some more - would really love to see them live...

all round: it's great to have a more in depth music thread :up:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 30, 2015, 02:24 PM
It's interesting that as pop music continues to evolve, it's the bass that is getting louder and louder, while everything else is fading away, along with  melodies, songs with more than two chords or measures (lol).

Yeah...that "click-clack-paddywhack - please send this moron home" school of 'slap bass.' I can't stand it. It's like trying to eat a muffin made completely out of cinnamon. Almost as bad as the tone of those "Bad Jaco" wannabees, which sounds like a small animal with a sinus condition barking its head off because it's trapped inside a garbage can...

What happened to tone? To melodic inventiveness? To smooth and precise intonation? To freekin' legato while we're at it when it comes to electric bass??? If you like metallic clang, take up percussion. At least you'll have more interesting instrument voices to work with. Slap is like washtub bass - a little goes a long way. And just because it can doesn't mean you should. Or at least not ALL the time.

Time was when it was generally considered a good idea for a bass player to know (and play) something. Too bad we got away from that. A bassist today could have saved a fortune on head shaves and tattoos if that were still the case. And also been able to more profitably put all those hours they spent on getting those washboard abs and that 'studio tan' into practicing their instrument.

I can "slap & pop" just fine thank you very much. Something I learned how to do purely to refute those who like to imply I don't because I can't. (Even the most stoic bass players retain some ego.) I will not, however, play that way. A quick 1-bar break for dramatic variation in the service of a song?....maybe. Or maybe (i.e. probably) not. But to slap for a whole song? Or a whole set? Or a gig? Or your entire career? "Include me out!" as Yogi Berra allegedly said. Want a slap-style bass player? Why not go ask that big dude over there with the muscles... He needs a steady job more than I do. (It's a condition of his parole.)

Same goes for what my GF calls "Lead Bass." (She has a very special eye-roll she keeps in reserve purely for those times when she hears any.) If it's in your face in the front of the mix - it ain't bass. It's just guitar played on very thick strings. Which may well be valid in a given music context. But it's not "bass" as far as role and function are concerned. Or at least as far as I'm concerned.

There are some who may argue otherwise. Which is ok. But they are wrong.  8) ;) ;D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 30, 2015, 02:27 PM
If you want to clear out a room full of musicians in a minute or less, Mustang Sally will generally do the trick. If there's anybody left at the end of the song, you can follow it up with Johnny B Goode. If they're not gone when that's done, it's time to call an ambulance.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@Vubal - thanks so much for that. I've been ROFLMAO all afternoon over that one! Each time I think about it, I crack up all over again. :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on January 30, 2015, 04:27 PM
Jeff doesn't need anything to bolster his (somewhat unjustified IMO) fame or place in the history books of rock & roll.

Yeah, he's definitely way overrated. My problem with his playing is he's exclusively a lead guitarist. It reminds me of something I remember Lindsey Buckingham saying about Van Halen, which I completely agree with. He said his problem with their music is that Eddie's solos are like a completely different song.

Beck is arguably worse that way since, even on most of his studio recordings, he leaves the actual song for the rest of the band and just noodles over top of it from beginning to end. Going Down is a perfect example:



Beck is the only guy on that track whose playing needs the rest of arrangement to sound like anything but noise. Somehow he manages to step on every other part with almost every note.

Compare that to Randy Bachman on Taking Care Of Business. Once the solo starts, Bachman's lead only stops for the drum/vocal break, but always within the song and arrangement instead of on top of it. In fact, it fits so well most people don't even notice it.

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on January 30, 2015, 06:57 PM
If you want to clear out a room full of musicians in a minute or less, Mustang Sally will generally do the trick. If there's anybody left at the end of the song, you can follow it up with Johnny B Goode. If they're not gone when that's done, it's time to call an ambulance.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@Vubal - thanks so much for that. I've been ROFLMAO all afternoon over that one! Each time I think about it, I crack up all over again. :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:

That's nothin', I do a mean solo cover of Whipping Post that'll floor you... Ready?  Hello?  Hey guys wh.... ??  :huh:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 30, 2015, 07:05 PM
If you want to clear out a room full of musicians in a minute or less, Mustang Sally will generally do the trick. If there's anybody left at the end of the song, you can follow it up with Johnny B Goode. If they're not gone when that's done, it's time to call an ambulance.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@Vubal - thanks so much for that. I've been ROFLMAO all afternoon over that one! Each time I think about it, I crack up all over again. :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup:

That's nothin', I do a mean solo cover of Whipping Post that'll floor you... Ready?  Hello?  Hey guys wh.... ??  :huh:

Yeah...sounds about right...

@E - I personally think the Allmans had no clue just how appropriately the title fit when they named that song.  ;D :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on January 30, 2015, 07:54 PM
stoic bassists...lol.  Yeah, that is a thing.  It's true about the listening thing, maybe that's why it seems the bassists are better at explaining stuff to the other members, because they listen better?  I also struggle with any kind of extra ornaments when I play because it's hard enough for me to listen to everything and process it all.  Maybe when I'm more of a pro I can let that go and do more intentionally interactive things.

See that's why I tell people that the first time you play with other people, you learn more than everything you've learned up to that point. A close second is the first time you do it on stage in front of an audience.

You shouldn't be too hard on yourself though. Here's a secret most guitarists and bassists don't even admit to themselves. Our instruments are designed to do a lot of the thinking for us. I don't just mean all the obvious advantages it gives us, like the ability to transpose between keys by shifting a hand up or down the neck. The guitar can even teach you how to write a song.

Don't believe me? Here's a Rolling Stones song my bass taught me when I was 17. Not the words obviously, but within a note of the exact riff and rhythm. Keep in mind, when I "wrote" it, I had been playing for about a month, had never taken a lesson, and never heard the song before.



Sit down with a guitar or bass and try it yourself. Pick any position on the fretboard and keep your hand there. In fact you don't even need to use your pinky. Just for fun, try the same thing with Jumping Jack Flash. You have to use your pinky, but only 2 strings instead of 3. For Satisfaction it's even down to just 1 string.

Nothing against Keith. He's a phenomenal rhythm guitarist, something almost as underrated as a good bassist. But a great songwriter? Hardly.

Back in the 90s I saw one of the best pieces of advice for guitar solos - from an 80s speed metal shredder no less. He said if you want to learn how to solo, don't listen to other guitarists. Listen to keyboard players because their solos are composed melodically instead of by finger patterns.

There's just a lot more thinking involved on piano than guitar, and that's without getting past the basics of 3 chord blues progressions. On bass I can even lose 3 strings and still be fine. I've never lost 3 at once, but I have lost my A string in mid-song, which is arguably the hardest one to do without. All I had to do was play chord roots - 1 4 5 - through the rest of the song (and set) and nobody besides the band even noticed.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 30, 2015, 08:08 PM
Back in the 90s I saw one of the best pieces of advice for guitar solos - from an 80s speed metal shredder no less. He said if you want to learn how to solo, don't listen to other guitarists. Listen to keyboard players because their solos are composed melodically instead of by finger patterns.

Yep! And if you want to be a really good bass player, when you're just starting out skip most bass lesson books. Work out of a beginner’s saxophone lesson book instead. You'll never regret it. :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 30, 2015, 08:27 PM
It reminds me of something I remember Lindsey Buckingham saying about Van Halen, which I completely agree with. He said his problem with their music is that Eddie's solos are like a completely different song.

Lindsey had a lot to say about a lot of things IIRC. Not bad for a guy who launched his career primarily by sponging off his girfriends and generally driving them clinically insane until he achieved his middling success. (As bluesman Tinsley Ellis so famously said when speaking of his own career: "It's been a long hard climb to the middle.")

EVH was far better on his first two albums than he was for much of anything he did afterwards. (And I think we can all agree that the Sammy Hagar years were the absolute pits for VanHalen.)

That said, I think the solos and guitar work on Women in Love, Beautiful Girls and Somebody Call Me a Doctor are among some of the best in the rock genre.

However, for really good rock guitar, I still think the pinnacle was Frampton on the Frampton Comes Alive album. Skipping the Heil "Bag" nonsense in Do You Feel Like We Do (hey, it was the times...nobody had ever heard much in the way of effects beyond a wah pedal or fuzz box) Frampton's playing was spot-on. He's also one of the few guitar players I think sounds better on a Les Paul than a Stratocaster. Not an easy feat. Les Pauls can sound amazing in the right pair of hands. Too bad they so seldom do find themselves held by such hands.


(Note: absolutely love Bob Mayo's gorgeous Hammond/Leslie and Rhodes piano work on this one too!)

Frampton's trick (if you want to call it that) is that he works his solos around chord forms rather than off of scale patterns. It's a more "orchestral" (i.e vertical structure) rather than single line scale pattern approach. It's how most jazzers think of things. Start thinking within the chord progressions - not memorized and heavily practiced scale patterns. Even his noodling is more musical than most guitarist's signature solos are. And that chord vamping he does towards the end starting at approximately the 12:04 mark is positively inspired.

Most guitarists today focus on scale patterns played just short of the speed of light. And the results speak for themselves. Fast multi-octave runs and riffing mostly devoid of musical interest. Or so I think.

Want to do a good sounding solo? Work inside the chord shapes and chord progression.

Just my :two: anyway. 8)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on January 31, 2015, 12:18 AM
RE: Slap bass - I remember reading an interview with a famous bass player (I always though it was James Jamerson, but he never played slap) in Guitar Player (?) magazine around 1989, where he said the technique came from a session where the drummer had either broken the head on his snare, or it was stolen, so he just started accentuating the note where the snare would hit, and kept doing it after the drummer got a new snare, because it sounded cool.  

RE: Whipping Post - The best version I ever heard (because it was so twisted) was Daddy Longhead and their take called "The Post".  DL were a bunch of idiots gathered together by ex-Butthole Surfers bassist Jeff Pinkus.  This is what happens when brain-damaged punk rockers attempt to "Jam Band".


RE: Guitar wankers - I never was into "shredding", even being a dedicated metal guy.  I was more impressed by a tight performance that didn't have to devolve into stupid guitarist tricks to stay interesting.  Then again, if you're going to wank, might as well wank like the devil gets your soul if you stop.  Caspar Brotzmann, Helios Creed, Buckethead, Thurston Moore, Gibson Haynes, take a bow.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on January 31, 2015, 03:59 PM
Getting away from all things bass (and bass players) for a moment (YAY!), here's something useful I recently found.

If you want a regulated hum-free power supply to handle multiple effects pedals, but don't cotton to paying the prices some of the commercial versions go for, it's fairly easy to build your own IF you have some electronics project experience.

The key to the ease of building this particular power supply is an unusual transformer sold by a company called Weber Magnetics. It takes 120VAC-in and provides eight separate isolated 11VAC @ 300ma pairs - plus one with 9VAC @2A.

If none of the above makes sense, STOP READING. You don't have enough experience or technical background to safely attempt a homebrew project like this.

To continue...

This transformer, which is specifically designed to power effect pedals, is called a WPDLXFMR-1 and it runs for $25 per unit. There's also a 120/220/240VAC configurable primary version for non-US voltages called the WPDLXFMR-2 available as well. Info and links can be found on this (https://taweber.powweb.com/store/magnetic.htm) page - look towards the bottom.

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Pedal and effects power supply transformer, Eight 11 volt, 300ma windings and one 9 volt, 2 amp winding. 120VAC input. This is a transformer, NOT a power supply. The output is AC, not DC. You must build a power supply that converts AC to DC in order to use this transformer.

Drop a voltage rectifier and (optional) voltage regulator circuit after each pair and Bob's yer uncle! A discussion (with schematics of suggested circuits) can be found on on the project page for the Geofex Spyder power supply located here (http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/Spyder/spyder.htm).

I'm being sketchy about details because a project of this type involves potentially lethal voltages on the side of the circuit you'd be plugging into a wall outlet. If you don't know what you're doing - DON'T. And even if you do know what you're doing - be extremely careful. All the usual "At your own risk" disclaimers apply.

Note: This post is only being provided for educational purposes. Any safety risks are the sole responsibility of the project builder.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on February 01, 2015, 01:26 PM
The key to the ease of building this particular power supply is an unusual transformer sold by a company called Weber Magnetics. It takes 120VAC-in and provides eight separate isolated 11VAC @ 300ma pairs - plus one with 9VAC @2A.

That's pure awesome. Currently my only pedal is a tuner, but I've been running it off a battery until I could find an acceptable quality power supply. The only universal PS I own currently was designed for laptops, so the lowest output is 14V. It's certainly nowhere close to the quality of that design.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on February 01, 2015, 02:04 PM
Here's another tidbit for what to listen to when you're learning an instrument. For harmonica, I'd start with horn players, primarily trumpet and saxophone. That's an integral part of Magic Dick's sound with the J Geils Band.







Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 01, 2015, 09:13 PM
stoic bassists...lol.  Yeah, that is a thing.  

To go back to the stoic bit for a moment, this is an example of that "gimmee more bass" thing guitarists love to do to their bass player when they launch into an interminable solo.

My old band had a few 'rules' when it came to solos:
 


Unfortunately, my band had this one particular (very fast) song that one of our guitarists staked out as his showcase piece. He gradually stretched his speed solo beyond our 1-minute limit until it ran as long as he thought he could get away with. He'd just close his eyes and go into the Ego Zone until the rest of us (and sometimes the audience) were on the verge of mutiny.

When he launched into his solo, I'd be playing this for his backing riff in second position, with the metronome running around 155:

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It's not a difficult a passage to play. But since this song was invariably played just before break at the end of our second 50 minute set (most clubs where we worked contracted for three 50 minute sets if you were the only band on the marquee) - it was not the most reasonable time to expect me to play this part for 5+ minutes straight while he bored the tar out of everybody. (I think he was doing it mostly to impress his girlfriend, who was convinced he was a 20th century Orpheus or something.) Nobody but him was shocked when our lead singer (who wrote the song) finally removed it from our playlist.

This is the sort of nonsense a bassist often gets to put up with. :-\  ;)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Carol Haynes on February 02, 2015, 10:40 AM
LOL  :trout:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 03, 2015, 07:16 PM
Think you've seen it all? How about a Gibson SG Tenor guitar? Haven't seen one? No surprise. Built in the late 50s and early 60s, they're incredibly rare.

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If you're interested in learning more about them, visit Steve Pyott's Vintage Tenor Guitars (http://www.vintagetenorguitars.com/index.html) website for more info and pictures of the surprising variety tenor guitars come in. Most have a 23" scale length with 4 strings tuned in ascending 5ths. (Same as banjo BTW.)

But suppose you want to own one? Well...the originals go for a fair amount of change. But Eastwood Guitars will be releasing a close twin based on a guitar in Steve Pyott's collection.

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Due out and available for ordering in May 2015, it's called the Astrojet Tenor which they are self crowdfunding here (https://eastwoodcustoms.com/projects/eastwood-astrojet-tenor/). The goal has already been met so it's a go.

Usually tenor guitar is associated with Bluegrass, Celtic and similar music. But there's nothing to say it has to stay there. Here's a demo by a more modern player named Jose Macario playing an electric solidbody tenor. A bit too much reverb for my taste, but still an interesting example of some out of the box thinking when it comes to this instrument.



Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on February 03, 2015, 11:23 PM
...
Unfortunately, my band had this one particular (very fast) song that one of our guitarists staked out as his showcase piece. He gradually stretched his speed solo beyond our 1-minute limit until it ran as long as he thought he could get away with. He'd just close his eyes and go into the Ego Zone until the rest of us (and sometimes the audience) were on the verge of mutiny.
...

As a guitarist, I pledged long ago never to do that kind of thing.  It rankled me personally, so why put others through the pain.  Though sometimes I understand restraint to be a very difficult thing under the right circumstances.  
Or, as Steve Albini put it (commenting on the extended intro the the song "Cables" on their live album, 'Pig Pile'):
The silly guitar noises at the beginning go on entirely too long, yeah, yeah. You try restraining yourself when you've got 30,000 watts of PA blowing your genius into a half-million cubic feet of ballroom. Be thankful we didn't break into "House of the Rising Sun" or "Supernaut".
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 04, 2015, 03:31 PM
^ Other than "to minimize cases of self-inflicted injury," the risk of guitarists soloing over the House of the Rising Sun is the single most frequently cited reason why bass players are invariably denied 'carry permits' in most parts of the USA. Hundreds (possibly thousands) of lives have been saved because of that policy. ;)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 09, 2015, 08:14 PM
How to be a "jerk guitarist." Works for bass players too!  :huh:



Feel free to add your own. ;D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 09, 2015, 08:24 PM
How many of these have you heard during a recording session?  ;D ;D ;D







Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 12, 2015, 08:31 PM
(Note: the first part of this post will likely only be of interest to actual bass players. You have been warned!  ;))

Are you a bass player? As in a bass player doing some serious recording work? If so, check out one of these bad boys - a Keeley Bassist Limiting Amplifier (also known as a compressor/limiter):

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I have wanted to find a very subtle and musical compressor-type device specifically designed for electric bass for some time now. And I think I probably tried out at least dozen or so before I stumbled on this one. It's surprisingly affordable for the signal quality and transparency it offers. As good as what you'd find in a recording studio rack IMO. And it's usable too. Great sound plus simple logical controls that behave the way you'd think they would. (Not every similar device can make that claim.) And it doesn't get in the way of your sound like so many of these devices sometimes can.

If you're a bassist who knows what a compressor is used for - and you're in the market for a really good one - look no further. Highly recommended. :Thmbsup:

(Note: the standard disclaimer applies here. I'm not affiliated with Keeley Engineering in any way, shape, or form. I bought mine with my own money through the regular retail channels.)

----------------------------------------------

For those who are curious as to exactly what a compressor does, this video explores some of the sonic benefits such devices can bring to the party. You'll need headphones or decent speakers to really hear the difference in this video because (when properly used) most applications of this 'effect' will be fairly subtle. And you may need a few repeated listens before your ear becomes attentive enough to clearly hear some of them.



But do you actually need one? The next video gets into that thorny and subjective question in some depth.

Skip forward to the 1:00 mark to get right into the explanations and demos.



Cool tools! Check it out! :Thmbsup:

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on February 13, 2015, 01:18 AM
RE: the Keeley compressor - Nice find!  I've always known compression to be a 'secret weapon' for keeping the bass 'in the pocket' sonically (musically depends on the wielder of said four-string weapon).  Never found a really good one though, I'll check it out.

The only compressor for guitar that I've ever been truly impressed with was the Ibanez CP10 Compressor/Sustainor.  With guitar, sometimes the best thing is for it to be a little on the non-subtle side; transparent, YES, but for the brief time I was allowed to play with this thing, the more I became aware that there finally existed a tool that would smooth over the jangling mis-pick or the 'oops, I muted that bend again' that so plagued me in my formative years. 
Now, I'm painfully aware that nothing will EVER replace experience, practice, and some good 'ol fashioned talent, but sometimes, technique be damned, I just wanted to jam and boy did this little pedal let me do it, politely sweeping up the garbage as I went.

Solo demo:


and vs. the Keely C-4:


The CP10 has some serious hang-time and 'smoove' without raising the noise level like so many other compressors-in-a-pedal that I've heard and played. 
Now I just gotta clone that thing...
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 13, 2015, 07:50 AM
^Really like that CP10. It adds a bit more coloration. But it's a lovely butterscotch sort of coloration. Which on guitar works very well. And the absence of noise in a compressor that old is amazing. (Remember the ubiquitous MXR DynaComp anyone?)

Guitarists have a definite advantage over bass players when it comes to their tone palette. All those extra high frequencies give effects (and our ears) so much more to work with. And while I have seldom heard bass benefit much from using an 'effect' pedal (beyond "remedial" signal processors such as a limiters or compressors), most guitars can gain a whole new dimension by their judicious employment. They key word here being "judicious."

So little time (and money!)...so many interesting things to try. Wha' fe do, Mon...wha' fe do?

Tom Hughes did a very fine book on effects called Analog Man's Guide to Vintage Effects, which covers over 150 different manufacturer's devices. It's a history book, a collector's wish-list/catalog, and a tech guide all rolled into one. The $45 asking price may be a bit of a put-off. And what's covered will likely only appeal to the diehard effect users, "gear-geeks," and serious collectors out there. But it's well worth it IMO. This book is as good as guitar-porn gets. If you love stomp boxes, look no further. Here is bedrock.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on February 13, 2015, 10:28 AM
^ On the good side, that leaves us with more money for the higher power amps we need and more efficient speakers to save our backs, not to mention another bass or 2. I'm thinking I'll be replacing my POS low end Hartke cab soon with a Bill Fitzmaurice DIY kit (http://billfitzmaurice.com/Jack.html).

I would, however, like to get a good compressor pedal, and the Keeley seems to be the one that gets the best reviews. My old Trace head has built in compressor that sounds surprisingly good at a minimal setting. Of course, there are no fine tuning options, and, unlike a pedal, it's not exactly portable to another amp.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 13, 2015, 12:11 PM
I would, however, like to get a good compressor pedal, and the Keeley seems to be the one that gets the best reviews. My old Trace head has built in compressor that sounds surprisingly good at a minimal setting. Of course, there are no fine tuning options, and, unlike a pedal, it's not exactly portable to another amp.

My high wattage SWR head has a built-in compressor too. It's actually rather nice sounding. But it's of the single knob variety which doesn't allow much in the way of fine tuning to get it to sound exactly your way. For normal and sane volumes however, there's always my old and beloved Ampeg B-15N. Being all tube it provides that wonderful natural (by way of physics) compression instrument tube amps do so well.

It always amuses me that the hardcore "vintage tone" freaks love to diss outboard compressors. ("It's just unnatural dude. I'll only plug straight into my Twin 'verb cuz I want to hear pure unadulterated guitar!") And they'll argue at length about it without realizing a compressed signal IS "vintage tone." Those old amps they love and praise so much also compress the living heck out of their signal. But these tubeheads have heard that ol' 12AX7-driven preamp and tube compression so often (and for so long) that they've now come to accept it as uncolored. Which is fine. That trace of distortion and compression is a lot of what makes all-tube amps so musical. So even if the tube freaks underlying premise is wrong, at least the amps they swear by sound good. >:D

Beyond judicious use of compression, I've also had good luck adding the tiniest trace of reverb and the least hint of some very slow tremolo to my bass signal chain. It's so subtle it's virtually inaudible since it only adds a touch of moving air and an indefinable "liveliness" to the overall sound. You can feel a similar sensation of motion when you're in the same room with somebody playing the double bass. Enhancer devices will also give you some of that. I have a lot of respect for the BBE Sonic Maximizer, which I've used in the past even though I rarely use it now. Same goes for the Aphex Aural Exciter which does much the same in stereo. The Aphex also included a feature called Optical Big Bottom which really made it shine for use with electric bass. I have one of those in my rack too. But like the BBE, I seldom use it these days. 

The whole "exciter" thing can be a little hard to get your head and ears around. There's a lot of bad marketing fluff surrounding them. And there's even more flat-out wrong information posted on the web about how they work - along with crazy claims about what  they can do for your sound. However, this video below does a good job demonstrating AND correctly explaining the BBE. Especially impressive (and why I like Nick Jaffee so much) is that this is a redo of his original video. He redid it because BBE contacted him after he posted originally to politely suggest his presentation wasn't clear - and his explanation about how the device worked "wasn't entirely accurate." Most video bloggers wouldn't be so upfront about being wrong when they redid their video. Far too many would double down and start insisting their explanation was "more correct" than the manufacturer's was. But whatever. Put your headphones on and check out what Nick has to say and show you about the BBE Sonic Stomp Maximizer. Fast forward to the 1:00 mark to skip the opening if you want to get right to the demo and explanations:








Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on February 13, 2015, 08:54 PM
I just finished putting some organ on my friends' tracks, for this upcoming album:
http://creativecolloquy.com/special-call-for-submissions-valentines-day-massacre-at-the-narwhal

So it's coming up soon!  It was a delightful track, if I do say so myself.  A sound we've been talking about for years.

Sounds good! Keep us posted. :Thmbsup:
It's out!
http://creativecolloquy.bandcamp.com/album/valentines-day-massacre-at-the-narwhal

I'm on the last track (the closer, yes!!) "Mac the Knife".  The same band (minus me) is also on track 3 "St. James Infirmary".  Hope you guys like it!

And Happy Valentines!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 13, 2015, 09:00 PM
^Nice! Very nice. (Like that vocalist too!) :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on February 14, 2015, 02:37 AM
^Nice! Very nice. (Like that vocalist too!) :Thmbsup:
We think she's awesome, too.  Thanks!!  Check out this track from maybe 10 years ago.  That's Houston person playing sax on it, and one of my first times in the studio, and I was basically just mesmerized because he might be my favorite sax player of all time.  Pay attention to 1:50.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on March 12, 2015, 01:23 PM
So, I figured this was a good place to ask about opinions on the Blurred Lines Verdict.

http://www.musictimes.com/articles/31246/20150310/jury-decides-against-robin-thicke-pharrell-blurred-lines-lawsuit.htm

http://www.musictimes.com/articles/31455/20150312/robin-thicke-pharrell-to-appeal-blurred-lines-verdict.htm

It seems that musicians fall all over the spectrum on this, which was surprising to me.  I don't like "Blurred Lines"- but listening to it and "Got to Give it Up", they're distinctly different songs.  Other opinions:

http://theconcourse.deadspin.com/the-blurred-lines-verdict-is-bad-news-even-if-you-ha-1690817200
http://www.refinery29.com/2015/03/83687/breaking-blurred-lines-lawsuit-pharrell-reputation
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/03/_blurred_lines_verdict_is_wrong_williams_and_thicke_did_not_infringe_on.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2015/03/11/the-blurred-lines-of-the-blurred-lines-verdict/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pharrell-robin-thicke-blurred-lines-guilty-verdict-impact-music-industry/
http://radio.com/2015/03/11/8-artists-that-could-sue-uptown-funk-on-the-same-grounds-as-blurred-lines/

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on March 12, 2015, 02:55 PM
This is the problem with the way copyright is often applied. The line between idea and expression has been blurred by big corporations to the point it effectively doesn't exist.

Marvin Gaye neither wrote nor copyrighted the instrumental arrangements for any of his songs. He walked into the studio with the words and their melody written (the copyrighted portion) and the session musicians threw together the rest. If copyrighting the feel of other musicians' performances is copyright infringement, there are very few songs ever recorded which aren't infringing.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on March 12, 2015, 03:06 PM
I think the miscalculation by Williams and Thicke's Lawyers was catastrophic.  You can't tell which way a jury is going to rule on something that actually requires expertise.  I don't know what they would have had to do- but they should have done anything they had to in order to avoid that kind of factor.

That said, the "that songs reminds me of another song" threshold would be a new dangerous legal standard IMO.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on March 12, 2015, 03:20 PM
I think the miscalculation by Williams and Thicke's Lawyers was catastrophic.  You can't tell which way a jury is going to rule on something that actually requires expertise.  I don't know what they would have had to do- but they should have done anything they had to in order to avoid that kind of factor.

That said, the "that songs reminds me of another song" threshold would be a new dangerous legal standard IMO.
Yea, I agree. the implications can be a little frightening.
What about all the blues artists/songs?  Either they can sue almost any pop songs, or pop songs can sue a bunch of blues songs.  I don't know, it's a little nuts.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on March 12, 2015, 03:31 PM
8 Artists That Could Sue ‘Uptown Funk’ on the Same Grounds as ‘Blurred Lines’ (http://radio.com/2015/03/11/8-artists-that-could-sue-uptown-funk-on-the-same-grounds-as-blurred-lines/)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on March 12, 2015, 05:12 PM
I think this explains the issue pretty well - except that his examples are actually much closer to the original, compositionally speaking.

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on March 12, 2015, 05:55 PM
I think this explains the issue pretty well - except that his examples are actually much closer to the original, compositionally speaking.
yup, exactly.  I don't know what kind of legal mess we're headed into.  I'd say that the sensible thing to do is to avoid trying to set these boundaries on creativity.  Easier said than done.  The problem is...you DO have people who copy music and hide it.  But you also have people who just happen to have the same structure coincidentally.  And I don't think it's possible to draw the line somewhere without nazi-fying the creative process.  but what can you do really.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: vrgrrl on March 12, 2015, 07:25 PM
Time to start the DC orchestra it seems! I majored in music performance in college then took some non-music career turns but now I'm playing again (flute, piccolo, alto flute, bass flute, and oboe) in some local groups. I'm working with a teacher who is in the NY Philharmonic and trying to get together a recital for me to play so I could have a more recent stuff soon!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Deozaan on March 12, 2015, 09:34 PM
Or there's this one:

Ever wonder why all those pop songs sound kinda the same? Well, it's pretty simple; They all use the same 4 Chords!

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on March 13, 2015, 09:43 PM
My thoughts?  Listen to "Wild Wild West" by The Escape Club:



Then listen to "Pump It Up" by Elvis Costello:



... and tell me who should be suing whom :-\
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on March 14, 2015, 01:34 PM
^^^lol.  they are exactly the same song!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on March 14, 2015, 04:33 PM
Based on this new ruling, Living Colour would be infringing all over the place. They copy everybody's styles, except mixing it with their own.





I personally think it's as original as you can get to turn an influence like this:



into something like this:



Why yes, I am a big fan. And also jealous because they seem to be able to integrate whatever they happen to be listening to into their own music. After working with Vernon Reid, Jack Bruce actually called him the best guitarist he's ever played with. I'm not a fan of some of his solos, but he's like a walking encyclopedia of guitarists.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Deozaan on March 14, 2015, 05:30 PM
So what about Weird Al? :huh:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on March 14, 2015, 06:18 PM
He pays for what he does.  :Thmbsup:

Seriously, he does ask the artists' permission when doing parodies, and he has to share a negotiated cut.  Those negotiations happen for every song, so...
http://mentalfloss.com/article/57962/how-do-royalties-work-weird-al-songs
http://mentalfloss.com/article/57901/20-weird-and-not-so-weird-facts-about-weird-al-yankovic-and-his-songs
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Renegade on March 16, 2015, 09:23 AM
Anyone else love "Guitar Lessons with Bubbles"? 8)

{NSFW}

https://www.swearnet.com/shows/guitar-lessons-with-bubbles/seasons/1

Best guitar lessons ever!  :Thmbsup:

And who doesn't love "Liquor and Whores"? :P

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on April 19, 2015, 09:47 PM
Well...it's been a long while, but it's finally together. 

And it looks great!  If I took the close-up pictures, I could point out all of the flaws, but at a distance, I'm getting lots of compliments.

Now I'm stripping a Mexican/Korean Strat to do the same treatment with...and probably a year or so (maybe less), I'm going to take the top coat off of this one (polyurethane is lots softer than I thought or wanted!) - and take it in to an auto body shop to have them put a clearcoat on.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on April 19, 2015, 09:48 PM
... and the back ...
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tjbray on April 20, 2015, 02:21 AM
@TheGleep: looks really nice, man!  :Thmbsup: The weather around here finally broke, so as long as the humidity lowers a tad, I can finally get the bass I had to put in mothballs in Dec. finished. I'm hoping to have it completely built this month (fingers crossed). I'm also starting a tele build at same time. The body just needs the sharp edge around the top & bottom perimeter rounded over, and I can start deciding on shade of stain or dye. It's gonna have killer tone. I started with Honduran mahogany for the back, with a maple top that has a narrow band of Peruvian Walnut running along each side of the pickups  from neck to bottom. I almost hope the dude I'm building it for doesn't like it so I can keep it!!!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: theGleep on April 20, 2015, 01:15 PM
@tjbray:  I can understand that...so far, I'm just doing "refurbishing" as a hobby...but if I get to where they're really nice, I might see about buying cheap, doing the work, and selling them again.

One thing I'm doing with my strat is that BHMay wiring kit.  There is an *amazing* range of sounds available from that mod...and the $35 kit is REALLY affordable.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on June 01, 2015, 11:56 AM
I didn't know where to put this... but a few articles to honor the passing of the last great bluesman.

BB King obituary (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/may/15/bb-king-obituary-mississippi-farmhand-blues-legend)

BB King was that rare thing – a game-changer who was also beloved (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/may/15/bb-king-game-changer-beloved-died-89)

'Always a rotten apple': BB King, poison and the daughters of an infertile legend (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/may/31/bb-king-poison-daughters-funeral)

A bit from that last that made me look at him even better than I already had:

He’d met a lot of women playing 300 shows per year, and he had a saying, according to Sawyer: “If a woman is pregnant, and she says you’re the father, the only question to ask is: ‘Is it possible?’ And if it’s possible, it’s yours.”

But Sawyer, the biographer, said King also told him something else, a second piece of information that seemed to contradict the first. This assertion had long been forgotten in his portrait of a blues legend now stalked by family intrigue: King and his second wife couldn’t have children, and he took a fertility test that showed his sperm count was too low to conceive. Sawyer said he published this in his book, The Arrival of BB King, an authorized biography that is now out of print. Sawyer said King read the manuscript and could have removed that statement from the book, but he left it in.

That's the mark of not just a great bluesman, but a great man, IMO.
Title: BB King
Post by: MilesAhead on June 02, 2015, 08:05 AM
I only got to hear him live once.  It was in the early 70s at the Sunset Series on the Boston Common.  There was a fenced in area with tarp on the chain link fence.  Those of us outside listening for free could see just a bit of the show between the sections of the tarp.  But the sound was great.  I had some great times at those concerts.

Jimi Hendrix was supposed to appear on one date.  But he cancelled.  In a classy move he sent a check for 25 large to cover the setup costs for his show.

Other groups I saw at the series included Weather Report, Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Poco, Michael White, Maynard Ferguson.  Too many great nights to remember.

I don't believe any of the groups had an engineer "playing" tracks backstage.  All the music was performed live by artists like BB King who could make their instruments talk.

Too many talented musicians are passing away these days.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on September 13, 2015, 02:56 PM
Something from the past. The PPG Wave Synthesizer. One of the most interesting and musical of all those godlike keyboards ever created. A big favorite of prominent musicians like Kate Bush and the electronic prog crowd - when they could afford one! It was very much ahead of it's time. It was also the first wavetable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis) synth. A radical new technology (for the time) that really broke the mold and set electronic music on a whole new path for several years following it's introduction. It had a very organic feel. And the sounds it created were to die for. You just couldn't sound bad on this thing.

Awesome rig.

Check out the sounds! No wonder so many game music composers were totally hooked on it's vibe.



Here's a run through of the various wave tables contained within it:



Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on October 11, 2015, 11:40 AM
Ok...here's an excellent example of how it's not so much the instrument as the player. Two young ladies playing a matched set of those godawful all-in-one built-in amplifier and rhythm box guitars Vox built way back when. Most people who own one bought it as a conversation piece or purely for the novelty value. These two women make them work. Which just goes to show funkiness recognizes no national borders - and it really is the hand wielding the axe, rather than the axe itself, that counts:



Really cute "bass face" too! ;D


Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: mouser on October 11, 2015, 11:52 AM
nice!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on October 11, 2015, 01:12 PM
Two young ladies playing a matched set of those godawful all-in-one built-in amplifier and rhythm box guitars Vox built way back when.

They probably didn't get them from older models:

Vox again revived these body styles in 2013 with their Apache Series Travel Basses.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on October 11, 2015, 01:28 PM
Two young ladies playing a matched set of those godawful all-in-one built-in amplifier and rhythm box guitars Vox built way back when.

They probably didn't get them from older models:

Vox again revived these body styles in 2013 with their Apache Series Travel Basses.


I'm aware. ;) I just didn't feel like getting too pedantic about these things like I usually do in this thread. ;D

FWIW you can still find a limited number of them in various places including Amazon. But they are starting to get hard to find again, so if you have $350-$400 (average) burning a hole in your pocket, you'd better act fairly quickly if your GAS is acting up for one.  :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on October 11, 2015, 08:56 PM
Two young ladies playing a matched set of those godawful all-in-one built-in amplifier and rhythm box guitars Vox built way back when.

They probably didn't get them from older models:

Vox again revived these body styles in 2013 with their Apache Series Travel Basses.


I'm aware. ;) I just didn't feel like getting too pedantic about these things like I usually do in this thread. ;D

FWIW you can still find a limited number of them in various places including Amazon. But they are starting to get hard to find again, so if you have $350-$400 (average) burning a hole in your pocket, you'd better act fairly quickly if your GAS is acting up for one.  :)


Another strange one for you:

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/esp-vincent-price-ltd-edition-guitar

5 hours left.  They go for $700 on other places.  But I just couldn't get into the printed or painted art instruments.  I got my Taylor in red because it was a good deal... and it still feels ostentatious.  But I love it!  But I don't understand the instruments as art pieces for some reason.

I guess I'm just strange.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on October 31, 2015, 12:03 AM
Prince in a recent interview. What do you smoke to keep looking this young? Prince: "I smoke other Guitar players"



He reportedly asked Dhani Harrison before hand how he wanted him to play it- and Dhani said, something different than the way his dad played it - just to go all out and burn it.  Afterwards, George Harrison's wife said that she was wondering what Dhani was up to when he asked Prince to play it, and she had her doubts - but that he'd killed it.

For all that he was doing in there, I noted that he was paying constant attention to Tom Petty, and when he called it, was instantly there.

Very underrated guitarist.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: JavaJones on November 01, 2015, 12:27 PM
Prince is, indeed, a forking awesome guitar player. Well worth seeing him live if you get the chance.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Renegade on November 13, 2015, 01:49 PM
Dollars to donuts, this will intrigue a few people here:

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Renegade on November 15, 2015, 09:21 PM
A bit of historical interest... The Winstons just got paid for the "Amen break":

https://youtu.be/8wvsjxYbEQw?t=15m37s

Cued up for you. Only about 10 seconds long.

And here it is for you looped (you'll know it):



And a mix made from and dedicated to it:



And a tutorial! :D  :Thmbsup:



And documentaries on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac

More out there on it. LOTS more.

I had no idea about the history of that tidbit.

A wonderful example of how great music can be truly timeless.

 :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 16, 2015, 03:22 PM
Dollars to donuts, this will intrigue a few people here:



Interesting if a little long-winded at times.

But I think Lori Anderson did that sort of thing much better back as early as 1986 with 1/10th the technology we have to work with today.  ;)



Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: ayryq on November 16, 2015, 03:33 PM
Here is an article I found interesting. Be sure to read the sole comment, made by the blogger mentioned in the first paragraph.
http://www.cruiseshipdrummer.com/2015/11/laughable-myth-or-laughable-math.html
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 16, 2015, 07:58 PM
Here is an article I found interesting. Be sure to read the sole comment, made by the blogger mentioned in the first paragraph.
http://www.cruiseshipdrummer.com/2015/11/laughable-myth-or-laughable-math.html

Interesting if somewhat poorly written article. However I have to disagree with the commenter you pointed to. Because whenever you start speaking in "new" business terms like "monetizing fans" you're already heading in the wrong direction IMHO. Because fans actively resent being treated like a resource to be mined as if they were some mineral. And all the other "begging" schemes (i.e. crowdsourcing) and/or plans to sell music by the slice (i.e streaming, etc.) are not going to work long term.

In the end, I think we're seeing a seismic shift in the landscape for music. The days of producing a series of hits, and afterwards retiring to your secluded mansion for a purely studio career (a la The Beatles et al.) are over for all intents and purposes. The way bands will (and do) make money is by doing live shows. They can supplement their income by selling swag or hard copy recordings of their music - but the show is the thing that brings in the real money.

People are so virtualized and digitized that anything recorded and reachable via the Internet is perceived as valueless. Or, if it is grudgingly acknowledged to have some value, then the feeling remains that the price tag should be: FREE! regardless of that. And that mentality isn't going to change anytime soon - if ever.

So my feeling is, if you want a career as a professional musician, be prepared to go out on the road full-time and work for a living. Just like every band used to do up until the modern recording distribution cartel kicked into high gear between 1950 and 1970 and transformed music into a full blown industry. An industry with them in charge and calling all the shots when it came to broadcasting and record sales. Streaming media is just a logical extension of their monopolistic "closed shop" practices. And it works the same way as far as the average band is concerned.

Music is a performance art. With the advent of LPs (and now digital media and distribution) there were (and still are) many musicians that hoped technology would liberate them from the constant need to perform. But it didn't. And now, it's even more obvious it won't. So if you're a professional musician - or want to become one - the  time has come to face the music and go back to doing what musicians have always done - perform music in front of a live audience.

I don't see it working any other way. Either in the short or long-term.

(Note: I'm sure many wishful thinkers will tell me otherwise. To which I can only say: show me the trend - not the occasional Cinderella (e.g. Amanda Palmer) case that seems to show otherwise.)

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on November 16, 2015, 08:55 PM
Amanda Palmer

I wouldn't consider her a Cinderella in this piece.  She performs a lot.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 16, 2015, 09:33 PM
Amanda Palmer

I wouldn't consider her a Cinderella in this piece.  She performs a lot.

By that I meant somebody who broke the limit and actually took in $1M+ on a crowdsource campaign that was targeting something like 1/10th of that.

Please don't get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for her as an artist and a businessperson. (I actually kicked in on her project and I own everything she ever released.) But she is so far removed from a typical musician that I think her story is more inspirational than it is instructional for most people.

I also think she was the right person, with the right project, in the right place, at the right time - and the crowdsourcing scene was in a unique moment where it wanted to put some real momentum behind something. So I think it was more a phenomenon rather than a sign that pointed the way for others.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 16, 2015, 09:41 PM
This short documentary on Loreena McKennitt :-* shows the realities of being a musician as well as running and being in a band - and how I think you still need to do things if you want to be a successful musician today. It runs a little under an hour and I think it's worth watching. Check it out soon before YT realizes it's been uploaded and take it down:



Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on November 17, 2015, 09:58 AM
I also think she was the right person, with the right project, in the right place, at the right time - and the crowdsourcing scene was in a unique moment where it wanted to put some real momentum behind something. So I think it was more a phenomenon rather than a sign that pointed the way for others.

There are a lot of successful music and art campaigns on Kickstarter and Patreon.  And I think it's awesome.  It hails back to the 18th century when patronage was a thing.  Pentatonix is a group that has benefited from it.  And Lindsey Sterling.  But that is a supplement that allows them to do their thing in all three cases, rather than a support.  And I think that's an important distinction.  Without the other side - engaging with your fans in a real way, producing, and performing, you'll never rise to the level of real sustenance.  More... subsistence, I think is the word I'm looking for.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 17, 2015, 07:26 PM
I also think she was the right person, with the right project, in the right place, at the right time - and the crowdsourcing scene was in a unique moment where it wanted to put some real momentum behind something. So I think it was more a phenomenon rather than a sign that pointed the way for others.

There are a lot of successful music and art campaigns on Kickstarter and Patreon.  And I think it's awesome.  It hails back to the 18th century when patronage was a thing.  Pentatonix is a group that has benefited from it.  And Lindsey Sterling.  But that is a supplement that allows them to do their thing in all three cases, rather than a support.  And I think that's an important distinction.  Without the other side - engaging with your fans in a real way, producing, and performing, you'll never rise to the level of real sustenance.  More... subsistence, I think is the word I'm looking for.

I have very mixed feelings about patronage. Because in the 18th century, it meant that art was almost exclusively reflecting and promoting the values and opinions of a certain monied subset of the society. You would not get authors like Dickens or Twain under a system dependent purely on patronage. Even PBS discovered how easily funding could be withdrawn if you riled the wrong person or irked the government by rocking the boat too much - or not reflecting the sentiments of the status quo.

So I don't see a return to patronage as necessarily  desireable or without danger to artistic integrity.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on November 17, 2015, 08:18 PM
So I don't see a return to patronage as necessarily  desireable or without danger to artistic integrity.

I do agree there are dangers- but there's danger in everything.  The trick is to be aware of them, and work to avoid them.  You really think that the current system we have is any better?  And that those same pressures don't exist?  The current system is closer to classical patronage- the few hold the money, and they support who they will on a whim.  When I say patronage, I don't think towards that system- but more towards those that want support directly.  That is what I like about patronage.  I give $1 and it's not much.  10000 give $1 and it's a clear sign that you're doing something that people like.  100,000 give $1... and you're well on your way.  So I mean everyone being a patron of what they like.  Rather than the artist getting only a fraction of what I pay, and being in control of a lesser fraction.  And where you have to basically sign away your work in order to get published.

I had a friend... a moderately successful writer.  He wrote a pretty niche set of novels, and still writes them.  It was originally his story... and one that the publisher just publishes, right?  He tried to go into different media.  Things that the publisher wasn't even into.  Used Kickstarter for it, and was very successful.  Too successful one might say- there was nothing from the publisher's side, until the Kickstarter did so well.  You can imagine the rest.  It ended *reasonably* well, but still, it shows that people above will grasp onto anything they can keep ahold of, and squeeze until there's nothing left.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Renegade on November 17, 2015, 08:29 PM
Interesting if a little long-winded at times.

Yep.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on November 18, 2015, 12:03 PM
So I don't see a return to patronage as necessarily  desireable or without danger to artistic integrity.

I do agree there are dangers- but there's danger in everything.  The trick is to be aware of them, and work to avoid them.  You really think that the current system we have is any better?  And that those same pressures don't exist?  The current system is closer to classical patronage- the few hold the money, and they support who they will on a whim.  When I say patronage, I don't think towards that system- but more towards those that want support directly.  That is what I like about patronage.  I give $1 and it's not much.  10000 give $1 and it's a clear sign that you're doing something that people like.  100,000 give $1... and you're well on your way.  So I mean everyone being a patron of what they like.  Rather than the artist getting only a fraction of what I pay, and being in control of a lesser fraction.  And where you have to basically sign away your work in order to get published.

I had a friend... a moderately successful writer.  He wrote a pretty niche set of novels, and still writes them.  It was originally his story... and one that the publisher just publishes, right?  He tried to go into different media.  Things that the publisher wasn't even into.  Used Kickstarter for it, and was very successful.  Too successful one might say- there was nothing from the publisher's side, until the Kickstarter did so well.  You can imagine the rest.  It ended *reasonably* well, but still, it shows that people above will grasp onto anything they can keep ahold of, and squeeze until there's nothing left.


Point taken. But it's also dangerous to equate the music industry with the publishing industry. Because except for some similarities when it comes to distribution models, the two worlds and businesses are very different once you get beyond the superficial resemblances. Having been in both worlds, I can speak from firsthand experience on that subject.

I also don't agree that it's necessarily worth revisiting an already known "bad option" with the (IMO) mistaken notion that just because its dangers are known, that somehow makes it potentially more "acceptable" or worth considering a second time. Because according to The Book of 40Hz: "When something sucks - knowing that it sucks (and how it sucks) - doesn't make it any less sucky."

Or to put it more professionally: A "bad option" remains a bad option, regardless of the degree of risk involved in pursuing it.  ;) 8)


---------------

To go back to Amanda Palmer's successful Kickstarter campaign, I think it's also worth noting that she didn't solicit funding to write the music (which took 4 years), put the band together, or record the master tracks. She had already done that and was at pains to make sure people understood this wasn't the usual: "Hey wassup! We want to do our own album peeps! Mommy and daddy already said no. So can you maybe help pay to do it?". Which made her campaign very different from most music Kickstarters in that there already was "product."

In her case she was soliciting contributions for final mastering, manufacturing, and distribution. Basically those things a record company traditionally handles for a recording artist. So you could probably say she wasn't doing a music project campaign so much as a campaign to create a single project recording and distribution company. Because the creative part was already finished. All that remained was the manufacturing and distribution. And the road show...

Which was, I think, was an extremely significant factor in getting her the backing she got - along with her roughly 14 years of "street cred" and active involvement with her fan base leading up to it.

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on November 18, 2015, 01:06 PM
Or to put it more professionally: A "bad option" remains a bad option, regardless of the degree of risk involved in pursuing it. 

I'd disagree that it, in and of itself, is a bad option.  It becomes bad, IMO, when too much dependency is introduced into one outside source.  Making art on Spec is very fraught with the unknowns.  To know beforehand that you have a ready market for your work can be very calming, I'd think.  So modifying what has gone before to remove the one source problem does make the problem and solution as different.  Many people funding (a crowd, even) makes it the rule of the mob- for good and for bad.

Which was, I think, was an extremely significant factor in getting her the backing she got - along with her roughly 14 years of "street cred" and active involvement with her fan base leading up to it.

I do agree with this point- having a product made vs. soliciting to make it is a large differentiation.  And one that I use in my own support of Kickstarters that I support (less so with Patreon, as it's usually ongoing).
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 04, 2015, 12:18 AM
Might this be the beginning of the end of the "tonewood" debate? A completely cardboard Stratocaster commissioned by Cardboard Chaos rolls out of the Fender Custom Shop...

Cardboard Chaos is here and it’s time to riff on a new idea! Rock out with your cardboard stock out! This episode we work with a master builder at the Fender Custom Shop to see if paper has the ability to handle the look, feel and sound of one of the world’s most recognizable guitars, the Fender Stratocaster. A master builder can make just about anything look good, but will it sound good? Will it have tone and will it be able to handle the heat and get approval from one who rocks for a living in one of the most ass kicking bands of the last two decades, Linkin Park?! It’s a tall order and with roughly 250lbs of torque put on the neck of a guitar from the strings – We have ourselves a challenge and some Cardboard Chaos!

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on December 04, 2015, 04:18 AM
Thanks for sharing that!  It's so cool!  The part that was the best to me was watching the faces of the musicians as they first played it.

I wonder about the weight?  And the finishing?  And the durability over time?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on December 04, 2015, 02:45 PM
Thanks for sharing that!  It's so cool!  The part that was the best to me was watching the faces of the musicians as they first played it.

I wonder about the weight?  And the finishing?  And the durability over time?


It is an interesting question. Considering the way they're slinging it around I'm guessing it weighs in around 6 or so pounds.

Durability is another issue. I figure it's probably as sturdy as a Danelectro which are made out of Masonite. I do think the edges might need some additional finishing however. Maybe a piece of transparent fiberglass tape over the edges and some additional finishing to blend it in and secure it would do the trick. Of course, if it could be produced cheaply enough and last for 10 years, it might not be an issue. Just pull the hardware and electronics and stick them on an inexpensive replacement body/neck.

I doubt Fender will do any more of these. It's just a proof-of-concept piece for Cardboard Chaos to demonstrate the versatility of corrugated. But it may provide some incentive and ideas for builders outside of Fender who may wish to pursue it.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on February 08, 2016, 12:55 PM
I've been playing Rocksmith 2014 lately to improve my guitar skills- I highly recommend it!  Some people talk about it not being conducive to good guitar habits- but all I know is that I've been playing regularly daily and keeping with it- which I haven't successfully done with my other forays into the instrument, and I can feel myself getting better.  (As far as background for comparison, I'm more of a keyboard/vocals guy)

Well, I unlocked this bonus song by a band I'd not heard before, and I love it!

The band's video



Some one else playing (I have a problem with that solo!)



(he has his fretboard upside down for some reason even though he's not playing left-handed)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: ayryq on February 08, 2016, 01:18 PM
I've been trying to use Rocksmith for rhythm guitar too. (As far my background, 28 years playing piano, a bachelor's degree in trumpet, and fairly capable with a bass guitar) I'm finding it really difficult, that there's a big jump between the how-to-hold-the-guitar type of lesson and throw-you-into-a-song-with-no-chance. Also I found the fretboard was upside-down for the way my head works; I flipped it in settings.

I've been playing Rocksmith 2014 lately to improve my guitar skills- I highly recommend it!  Some people talk about it not being conducive to good guitar habits- but all I know is that I've been playing regularly daily and keeping with it- which I haven't successfully done with my other forays into the instrument, and I can feel myself getting better.  (As far as background for comparison, I'm more of a keyboard/vocals guy)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on February 08, 2016, 05:36 PM
What are you having a problem with starting off?  I might be able to help once I know that.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: ayryq on February 08, 2016, 06:23 PM
Hmm, I'm getting double notifications from DC at the moment  :huh:

I did Chords 101 with no problem but Chords 102 was baffling; I just couldn't keep up. And the easiest songs just expect you to play chords that you've never "learned." I guess some out-of the-game practice is needed.

But for now I've moved it aside as I'm currently trying to learn violin (!) with my 7-year-old. If you thought listening to someone learn to play violin was painful, you should hear two people trying at once  :o
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on February 08, 2016, 08:37 PM
Hmm, I'm getting double notifications from DC at the moment  :huh:

I did Chords 101 with no problem but Chords 102 was baffling; I just couldn't keep up. And the easiest songs just expect you to play chords that you've never "learned." I guess some out-of the-game practice is needed.

But for now I've moved it aside as I'm currently trying to learn violin (!) with my 7-year-old. If you thought listening to someone learn to play violin was painful, you should hear two people trying at once  :o

In my personal play, I sorted by difficulty, and started at the top.  The lessons needed for the particular song seemed to come up in the Rocksmith Recommends area.  I haven't even done any of the 102 courses yet, though I probably should.   I've learned from that point organically, and from the games and the score attack.  As far as playing chords you haven't learned, they do recommend that you look at chords outside of their suggestions, though most of those have come in the Rocksmith Recommends area also.

I'd recommend when going back, just jump into the songs and follow the Rocksmith Recommends curriculum.  It's pretty good, I've found, about picking up what you don't know, and making it simpler, without doing that immediately.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on February 18, 2016, 12:34 PM
As 40Hz already knows, I bought a new Schecter 5 string bass about the time I stopped posting to this thread last year. With a budget of only $400, I was actually planning to buy something used, which really sucks for a lefty. Fortunately for me, Schecter had discontinued this particular model, and I managed to get one literally a couple days before they became pretty much impossible to find. As a bonus, the new price was about what I'd probably get selling it used, so it was practically a zero risk purchase.

I fell in love with it the first time I played it, and I love it just as much now. It's everything I expected from a Schecterat that price (it normally sold for around $650 - $700), except for one annoyance. I say annoyance, but had I payed full price, or if I had to pay someone to fix the 1 design flaw I discovered, I'd be pretty pissed. Instead, I'm mildly annoyed with them, and more annoyed with myself for not tracking the issue down sooner.

To make a long story short (mark that on your calendar), Schecter put passive EMG pickups in the bass, which is fine, but then they paired them with the wrong EMG EQ module. EMG sells 2 OEM specific EQ stacks, one for active pickups (which most of theirs are) and another for passive pickups. Not being an OEM, I can't be sure, but I'm betting the active pickup (200k input impedance) version is cheaper than the passive (1M input impedance) one, because it doesn't need to include a buffer (which active pickups have) to avoid impedance loading the pickups. Even if they're the same price, generally, I know Schecter sells a bunch of basses with active pickups, so it would probably have increased the cost moderately to buy a separate (and smaller) batch of high impedance tone stacks).

Whatever their reasons, here's what the difference between 1M and 200k looks like on a frequency plot. They're different pickups, but the effect is fundamentally the same. There are actually 3 different impedance options listed, because it's for an Audere preamp with a variable impedance option. However, the Low Z and Mid Z plots are for the exact impedances for the active and passive pickup EQ modules, respectively. Not to mention that 1M is what every standard onboard preamp uses, and for the exact same reason.

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Fortunately, it turns out Bartolini sells a reasonably priced buffer/preamp circuit, so I can fix it without buying an entire preamp/EQ unit. At this point, I can't say I even know what either the pickups or EQ sound like when wired properly, so it would be wasteful to replace them without finding out - especially at nearly half the original cost of the bass.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on February 19, 2016, 07:24 PM
Just a quick note about an excellent set of affordable headphones for studio use. Check out the Sony MDR-V6 Studio Monitor headset. Close to dead flat and an amazing 5-30kHz (that's right 5 as in F-I-V-E) frequency range. If you're a bass player, these are ideal for plugging into a headphone practice amp or jack. Plenty of accurate bass response without those eardrum damaging overtones you get with general purpose or gaming headphones which are designed to "enhance" the low end.

You can buy them for around $80 street/online. They're amazing. To get something better you'd need to spend a few hundred (and then some) on top of that $80. And the sonic improvement wouldn't be as great as you'd think it would be.

Great for studio and recording use. And exceptional for dealing with bass frequencies. A quick Google will spot you numerous rave reviews (https://www.google.com/search?q=sony+mdr-v6&oq=sony+mdr-v6&aqs=chrome..69i57.4335j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=sony+mdr-v6+review).

Highly recommended.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: ayryq on February 20, 2016, 04:57 PM
Check out the Sony MDR-V6 Studio Monitor headset.

I have (and love) the very similar MDR-7506 headphones and I think they have the same ear pads. On mine the vinyl coating on the ear cushions started flaking off after a couple years. Got in my hair and shirt every time I wore them. So budget an extra $30 to get the Beyerdynamic EDT250V "velour" ear pads which are much more durable, and just as comfortable as the originals.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on March 04, 2016, 12:18 AM
I found this flat out fascinating...

Craig Leon, famous for his work with The Ramones and Blondie, as well as his work in the classical arena with such leading artists as Luciano Pavarotti, Joshua Bell and Sir James Galway, talks about the inspiration behind and the process of creating his latest record: "Bach to Moog."

In 1968, the album ‘Switched On Bach’ inspired many musicians of the time to explore the wondrous new world of synthesized music making. This ground-breaking album was the first ever to take standard classical repertoire and interpret it solely on a device which generated new sounds electronically. Although there had been research and sonic experiments earlier, it was after this breakthrough release that the synthesizer entered the mainstream of modern experimental and pop music recording.

As a welcome extension to the synthesized exploration of Bach’s music and the many creative opportunities that opened up 50 years ago, ‘Bach to Moog’ album integrates the Moog modular synthesizer into the orchestra as a solo instrument, in ensemble and also as a processor of other instruments.



Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on March 25, 2016, 08:40 AM
Last night a friend helped me install a preamp (Bartolini AGB 918-2) in my bass. By helped, of course, I mean I double checked which wires he was rerouting where (he's always worked on passive guitars), and set up my amp to test it out when he was done.

It sounds amazing now! Since I no longer have to roll off the bass and mids nearly all the way, while boosting the treble to about 3/4, the noise floor has dropped to near nothing. This morning I tweaked the gain trimpot on the preamp. Now I can keep the bass volume at about 80% running through my Joyo American Sound, and a little extra for bypassing it without having to adjust at the amp.

Besides the pedal, which does an amazing job of copping a Fender amp feel, I recently bought an Ampeg 210 (AV) cabinet, and I'm searching for his twin brother. Together they'll make a fantastic stage rig. For the time being, it's great by itself at surprising volumes - perfect at practice and rehearsal volume. Actually, I imagine it would carry a small bar just fine.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: superboyac on March 25, 2016, 02:10 PM
Bach to Moog’
totally fascinating.  thanks!!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on March 25, 2016, 06:53 PM
Last night a friend helped me install a preamp (Bartolini AGB 918-2) in my bass. By helped, of course, I mean I double checked which wires he was rerouting where (he's always worked on passive guitars), and set up my amp to test it out when he was done.

It sounds amazing now! Since I no longer have to roll off the bass and mids nearly all the way, while boosting the treble to about 3/4, the noise floor has dropped to near nothing. This morning I tweaked the gain trimpot on the preamp. Now I can keep the bass volume at about 80% running through my Joyo American Sound, and a little extra for bypassing it without having to adjust at the amp.

Besides the pedal, which does an amazing job of copping a Fender amp feel, I recently bought an Ampeg 210 (AV) cabinet, and I'm searching for his twin brother. Together they'll make a fantastic stage rig. For the time being, it's great by itself at surprising volumes - perfect at practice and rehearsal volume. Actually, I imagine it would carry a small bar just fine.


Sounds like a nice kit! Play it well.

I recently added an Iron Ether Nimbus Bass Reverb (http://ironether.com/pedals/nimbus/) pedal to my collection. Amazing little boutique box that finally makes reverb workable for bass without resorting to a $500+ Eventide H9 or a $480 Strymon Big Sky pedal. Great for adding a hint of air and motion (i.e. ambience) to your mix. It also has more extreme settings if that's your thing.

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Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on March 26, 2016, 01:43 AM
OK, I dropped this on the guys at GuitarNutz, and got a little (as in mostly one guy) feedback, but today I turn to my good friends here... 
A little history first:  Ever since I saw this ad in a 1977 issue of Guitar Player(?) magazine, I've lusted for one of these babies -
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It was the middle of the 80's and I wanted a guitar that was different from the gold standard Strats, Pauls, and SG's, but not like the trendy Floyd-Rose-and-pointy-headstock 'superstrat' things being pumped out by the likes of Kramer, Jackson, Ibanez, etc., nor like the pointy monstrosities presented by B.C. Rich, Dean and Gibson.  This organic-but-awesome product of Ovation fit my bill perfectly, and I scoured the pawnshops and instrument stores anywhere I happened to be.  In the early 90's, a Breadwinner could be found for $450 - 600 in great condition, but they were on the rare side, and always showed up when I was out of money.  :(
They began to get more popular when Tom Morello from Rage Against the Machine was seen playing them, and so somewhere around the mid-2000s the price started creeping even further out of my budget, and now can be had in the low $1000s on eBay.  :o

Now I'm married with a steady job, so I no longer have the time nor inclination to blast some chords on the road with some long-haired metal freaks, but I still play a bit here and there, and I still lust after that Ovation.  Eastman Guitars put out their loving tribute to the Breadwinner in 2009, and my heart leapt at the possibilities. However, at $800+ it was still out of my reach, and I my big fingers wanted a Fender-scale neck anyway, so... I went to work.  A few restless nights with a CAD program and some photos and tracings of the gem in question, and I finally have my dream in reach.  It may have to be built with pine or plywood, but so be it.
Ladies and Gents, in humble tribute to the Ovation Breadwinner, but adapted for a longer neck scale, I give to you...

The Loaf Champion:

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In the zip, I have included DXF and DWG files, openable by any capable CAD program, and a Readme file explaining what's going on with the layers.  I use QCad, so they will definitely work in that, and have used DoubleCAD 5 successfully in the past.
For those who are experienced builders, please advise where I might have gone wrong on this, and for those so inclined to actually build the thing before I do, I require a surcharge payable in build pictures.  :P
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on March 26, 2016, 08:58 AM
So I have a question that I've not really found a reliable answer to.

First, I was using a Korg GA-40 (http://www.amazon.com/Korg-GA-40-Large-Display-Guitar/dp/B000EEEYCW) for a tuner.

I moved on from that to a TMR50BK (http://www.amazon.com/Korg-TMR50BK-TMR-50-Metronome-Recorder/dp/B0099RW19S/r), mostly for the dual use of recording and a metronome.

As of late, I've switched to a Snark SN-5 (http://www.amazon.com/Snark-SN-5-Tuner-Guitar-Violin/dp/B004XNK7AI) after seeing it in use in one of my local shops.

I just saw a GoGo Pedal Tuner (http://www.amazon.com/GOGO-Tuners-The-Pedal-Tuner/dp/B008OFGZXE?mode=guest_open) on massdrop.  The lowest drop price is 39.99, and I'm thinking about joining.

Is there any real discernible functional difference between different tuners that any of you have noticed?  The Snark is convenient, and doesn't actually plug in, but I don't hear any difference between that and a plug-in tuner.  I can hear the difference on lower end tuners for sure.  But once you get past a certain price point, it doesn't seem that the difference is anything but form.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on March 26, 2016, 12:40 PM
For guitar, anything that gets you in the ballpark should be just fine.  Guitar is NOT a well-tempered clavier, and attempts to 'fix' it have resulted in some of the ugliest things you'd ever lay fingers on (http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r129/geoffstockton/ji_mugshot.gif).  The weird thing is, I usually have a pretty good ear when it comes to detecting things out of tune, but my cheap little black box tuner does a better job most days; Tune string-to-string by ear and I have an awesome Gmaj, but a slightly flat Dsus, tune by blickenlichts and I have everything from Emaj to C7 down cold (and yes, I adjust intonation every string change). 

TL;DR: If you can swing the price for one you like, go for it.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on March 26, 2016, 10:45 PM
Didn't know if anyone was looking for some good, reasonably priced, effects pedals.

An assortment of valeton pedals (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/valeton-guitar-pedals?mode=guest_open) are on massdrop.  3 days left on the drop.


Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on March 28, 2016, 01:37 PM
...

Now I'm married with a steady job, so I no longer have the time nor inclination to blast some chords on the road with some long-haired metal freaks, but I still play a bit here and there, and I still lust after that Ovation.  Eastman Guitars put out their loving tribute to the Breadwinner in 2009, and my heart leapt at the possibilities. However, at $800+ it was still out of my reach, and I my big fingers wanted a Fender-scale neck anyway, so... I went to work.  A few restless nights with a CAD program and some photos and tracings of the gem in question, and I finally have my dream in reach.  It may have to be built with pine or plywood, but so be it.
Ladies and Gents, in humble tribute to the Ovation Breadwinner, but adapted for a longer neck scale, I give to you...

The Loaf Champion:

In the zip, I have included DXF and DWG files, openable by any capable CAD program, and a Readme file explaining what's going on with the layers.  I use QCad, so they will definitely work in that, and have used DoubleCAD 5 successfully in the past.
For those who are experienced builders, please advise where I might have gone wrong on this, and for those so inclined to actually build the thing before I do, I require a surcharge payable in build pictures.  :P

Now that is a labor of love if I ever saw one!

One suggestion. Do it as a template first. By that I mean do it to scale on a 1/2" piece of MDF before you commit to cutting expensive woods. Sometimes something that looks really good on a blueprint or drawn on paper doesn't map out quite as nicely in the real world. Having that template also lets you get really precise cuts for the body etc, because you're going to only rough cut with a saw. The final shaping is going to get done with a router. And having an accurate router guide is going to be worth its weight in gold when you reach that point in your build and you're cutting a $25 mahogany or swamp ash body blank. It's also great for pickup routes and getting the tuner and bridge positioning exactly right.

(Note: I sent you a PM)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on March 30, 2016, 09:04 AM
So I have a question that I've not really found a reliable answer to.

First, I was using a Korg GA-40 (http://www.amazon.com/Korg-GA-40-Large-Display-Guitar/dp/B000EEEYCW) for a tuner.

I moved on from that to a TMR50BK (http://www.amazon.com/Korg-TMR50BK-TMR-50-Metronome-Recorder/dp/B0099RW19S/r), mostly for the dual use of recording and a metronome.

As of late, I've switched to a Snark SN-5 (http://www.amazon.com/Snark-SN-5-Tuner-Guitar-Violin/dp/B004XNK7AI) after seeing it in use in one of my local shops.

I just saw a GoGo Pedal Tuner (http://www.amazon.com/GOGO-Tuners-The-Pedal-Tuner/dp/B008OFGZXE?mode=guest_open) on massdrop.  The lowest drop price is 39.99, and I'm thinking about joining.

Is there any real discernible functional difference between different tuners that any of you have noticed?  The Snark is convenient, and doesn't actually plug in, but I don't hear any difference between that and a plug-in tuner.  I can hear the difference on lower end tuners for sure.  But once you get past a certain price point, it doesn't seem that the difference is anything but form.

Thoughts?
Personally, I wouldn't want to be without a pedal tuner. At the very least I'd want something I can plug into. Fortunately, a friend (with more money than sense) gave me a Pitchblack+ he decided he didn't like, but I don't recommend that for you, or most people in fact. I'm damn happy to have it, but I certainly wouldn't pay $150 for it.

You want something that's accurate to +/-1 cent, which the more recent models of clip-ons from Snark and TC also are, if I'm not mistaken. The Monoprice knockoff (https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=115&cp_id=11501&cs_id=1150108&p_id=611220&seq=1&format=2) of the regular Pitchblack is supposed to be quite nice, and only costs $20. Some people claim it's the actual Pitchblack, which it might be, but I've never seen any proof of that. In any case it's supposed to be an excellent pedal.

The Pitchblack+ is accurate to 0.1 cents, which mostly just makes it suitable for setting intonation. In my case, it also has a couple additional benefits. Unlike most people, my perception is a lot more accurate than +/-1 cent, and I have perfect pitch. Even in a mix, extremely small intonation issues can bug me.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on March 30, 2016, 09:38 AM
So I've been playing my re-engineered bass for almost a week and it's like a whole new instrument. I ended up turning the preamp gain almost all the way up - to about 5db. Initially that was just to compensate for output level differences when switching from mid focused (bass/treble cut technically) to mid cut tones. As it turns out, it also makes fine tuning the amount of dirt I'm getting from the overdrive pedal.

The difference with the buffer is so significant that my wife, who does not at all have the ear of a musician, immediately noticed it sounded clearer - before I actually got a good tone dialed in BTW. At rehearsal last week, it cut through the mix at a significantly lower volume. Just as importantly, the volume and tone from one string/note to the next is relatively balanced for the first time ever.

On the good side, struggling to tame those problems for nearly a year has done wonders for my technique. Even better, the guys I've been regularly playing with for the last few months, are actually sounding like a real band. If that doesn't work out, now I've got everything I need to look elsewhere.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on March 30, 2016, 10:38 AM
Personally, I wouldn't want to be without a pedal tuner. At the very least I'd want something I can plug into. Fortunately, a friend (with more money than sense) gave me a Pitchblack+ he decided he didn't like, but I don't recommend that for you, or most people in fact. I'm damn happy to have it, but I certainly wouldn't pay $150 for it.

You want something that's accurate to +/-1 cent, which the more recent models of clip-ons from Snark and TC also are, if I'm not mistaken. The Monoprice knockoff (https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=115&cp_id=11501&cs_id=1150108&p_id=611220&seq=1&format=2) of the regular Pitchblack is supposed to be quite nice, and only costs $20. Some people claim it's the actual Pitchblack, which it might be, but I've never seen any proof of that. In any case it's supposed to be an excellent pedal.

The Pitchblack+ is accurate to 0.1 cents, which mostly just makes it suitable for setting intonation. In my case, it also has a couple additional benefits. Unlike most people, my perception is a lot more accurate than +/-1 cent, and I have perfect pitch. Even in a mix, extremely small intonation issues can bug me.

Thanks for that!  I only have relative pitch, and it bugs me when the steps are off, and is very obvious to me, and I look at other people and wonder why they are sitting blissfully.  I can imagine it would be that much worse with perfect pitch.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: ayryq on March 30, 2016, 10:47 AM
I like Korg tuners, and I bought the CA-40 (actually I have a couple of them) because it goes low enough to tune my low B on the five-string bass.

I can imagine it would be that much worse with perfect pitch.

I wonder how "you people" deal with off-of-440 pitch situations? I regularly play with a pipe organ which is at A4=439Hz. Does that drive you nuts or do you adjust?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on March 30, 2016, 12:01 PM
I like Korg tuners, and I bought the CA-40 (actually I have a couple of them) because it goes low enough to tune my low B on the five-string bass.

I can imagine it would be that much worse with perfect pitch.

I wonder how "you people" deal with off-of-440 pitch situations? I regularly play with a pipe organ which is at A4=439Hz. Does that drive you nuts or do you adjust?

I don't have absolute pitch - but I do have excellent relative pitch. So once I hear a few notes of anything, my brain just locks into the first few intervals for reference and I'm perfectly fine. You wouldn't want to tune an orchestra just to me. But I'm never playing out of tune - no matter what the standard for being "in tune" is.

I prefer the sound of A=432 as it was during the Baroque period. (Actually A=438 is my own personal favorite.) But that's me. I don't buy into any of the metaphysical discussion surrounding the whys or wherefores, nor get into the political discussion of the "Nazi origins" surrounding A=440. I just like the way the lower A standard sounds. Modern tuning always sounds a little sharp to me. Especially that all important B tone - which always sounds 'out' to my ears - no matter what the tuner (even a Peterson strobe unit) says.

If you haven't heard much with A=432 (or possibly didn't know when you were - because many bands (like some of mine (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=18582.msg166629#msg166629)) will routinely drop their A down a few cents even though they don't feel the need to make a big deal or wave a flag around about it. This guy did up some comparison listening clips. Give a listen below:

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on March 30, 2016, 12:46 PM
Didn't know if anyone was looking for some good, reasonably priced, effects pedals.

An assortment of valeton pedals (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/valeton-guitar-pedals?mode=guest_open) are on massdrop.  3 days left on the drop.


Nice! Didn't know about those. Another good inexpensive line of effects (especially the tiny Nano Legacy series) are the Hotone  (http://www.hotoneaudio.com/)pedals and mini amps. The mini amp heads in particular are pretty impressive. Priced nicely too.

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Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on March 30, 2016, 12:54 PM
So I have a question that I've not really found a reliable answer to.

First, I was using a Korg GA-40 (http://www.amazon.com/Korg-GA-40-Large-Display-Guitar/dp/B000EEEYCW) for a tuner.

I moved on from that to a TMR50BK (http://www.amazon.com/Korg-TMR50BK-TMR-50-Metronome-Recorder/dp/B0099RW19S/r), mostly for the dual use of recording and a metronome.

As of late, I've switched to a Snark SN-5 (http://www.amazon.com/Snark-SN-5-Tuner-Guitar-Violin/dp/B004XNK7AI) after seeing it in use in one of my local shops.

I just saw a GoGo Pedal Tuner (http://www.amazon.com/GOGO-Tuners-The-Pedal-Tuner/dp/B008OFGZXE?mode=guest_open) on massdrop.  The lowest drop price is 39.99, and I'm thinking about joining.

Is there any real discernible functional difference between different tuners that any of you have noticed?  The Snark is convenient, and doesn't actually plug in, but I don't hear any difference between that and a plug-in tuner.  I can hear the difference on lower end tuners for sure.  But once you get past a certain price point, it doesn't seem that the difference is anything but form.

Thoughts?
Personally, I wouldn't want to be without a pedal tuner. At the very least I'd want something I can plug into. Fortunately, a friend (with more money than sense) gave me a Pitchblack+ he decided he didn't like, but I don't recommend that for you, or most people in fact. I'm damn happy to have it, but I certainly wouldn't pay $150 for it.

You want something that's accurate to +/-1 cent, which the more recent models of clip-ons from Snark and TC also are, if I'm not mistaken. The Monoprice knockoff (https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=115&cp_id=11501&cs_id=1150108&p_id=611220&seq=1&format=2) of the regular Pitchblack is supposed to be quite nice, and only costs $20. Some people claim it's the actual Pitchblack, which it might be, but I've never seen any proof of that. In any case it's supposed to be an excellent pedal.

The Pitchblack+ is accurate to 0.1 cents, which mostly just makes it suitable for setting intonation. In my case, it also has a couple additional benefits. Unlike most people, my perception is a lot more accurate than +/-1 cent, and I have perfect pitch. Even in a mix, extremely small intonation issues can bug me.

Agree 100% about the pedal tuner. If you're a bass player, a bombproof professional pedal tuner should be the first electronic accessory you buy. A stage-worthy tuner and a really good amp are all you'll really ever need to work in a band or studio environment. I tell anybody who asks: get yourself (in the following order): a good instrument, a tuner, and a really good amp before you even think of buying anything else. Once t hat's squared away, let your common sense and your wallet be your guide. And when in doubt about buying another pedal - try waiting a week and practicing a little more before you reach for your plastic.  ;)

I'm alternating between a TC Electronics PolyTune-2 (http://www.tcelectronic.com/polytune-2/) and a Korg Pitchblack. For the record - I prefer the Korg because it's a rock solid and no-frills stage tuner that handles a low-B string just fine. And the $80 it goes for won't break the bank. I don't use any of the bells & whistles the PolyTune brings to the party. That said, the Poly is also quite nice. But it's definitely geared more towards guitarists and their needs. I keep mine as a backup.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on March 30, 2016, 01:23 PM
So, all day I sit at a computer- diagramming, designing, programming, meetings... and during lunch I either go out with co-workers or, most often, heat up something in the microwave and sit at my desk surfing the internet, or more likely, more of the programming thing.

I just got a traveler guitar on massdrop (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/traveler-guitar-ultra-light?mode=guest_open)- figured I could play during lunch.  I've had a Vox (http://www.amazon.com/AP2AC-amPlug-AC30-Guitar-Headphone/dp/B00NAUHX1G) for a while, but the strat was just too much to carry around with it for me, so it's sat mostly unused.  Paired those with my monitors, got a table on the quad at work, and just sat and played.  It was the most refreshed I've felt after lunch in a long while.

Just had to share that experience.  Playing the traveler is definitely something you have to get used to.  But the freedom you get, and the renewal you feel being able to play anywhere... definitely worth the adjustment.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on March 30, 2016, 05:37 PM
@wraith - I'm not big on most travel type guitars or basses, but for a super small form factor guitar, I really like the G Sharp Instruments (http://g-sharpguitars.freesite.host/index.php) G# Guitar.

It's a tiny guitar that's a legit instrument in it's own right rather than just a hack to keep it small. Got a chance to try one out and it's definitely worth getting IMO. $375 USD delivered.





Get a set of headphones and one of these (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/amPlugAC30G2)and you can rock out anywhere.  :Thmbsup:

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: IainB on April 04, 2016, 12:31 AM
One reason I like music is because it is so beautifully logical - especially most classical music and religious music (including choral music, most of which I enjoy singing and listening to a great deal).
Good post about that here: The Math Behind Beethoven’s Music (http://www.openculture.com/2016/04/the-math-behind-beethovens-music.html)

- and one of the commenters posted a useful link to a copy of Science and Music (https://ia800504.us.archive.org/27/items/sciencemusic00jean/sciencemusic00jean.pdf), by Sir James Jeans.
Title: Musical people on DC? An hour of singing a day makes you healthier.
Post by: IainB on April 06, 2016, 05:30 AM
Though I invariably found it a tremendously satisfying and uplifting experience, I had never previously associated all my choir-singing rehearsals and performance work as possibly being conducive to a healthier lifestyle, so this initially surprised me quite a bit, but then I thought "Well of course it could be!":

An hour of singing a day could help body fight against serious ilnesses | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3523661/Choir-singing-help-body-fight-cancer-Just-hour-singing-increase-levels-immune-proteins-body-uses-battle-illnesses.html)
  • Singing reduces stress hormones, such as cortisol, and boosts mood
  • Reducing anxiety takes strain off immune system so it can fight disease
  • People with depression experienced the greatest mood improvement
  • The research suggests singing in a choir could help put cancer patients in the best possible position to receive treatment and stop tumours returning
By Ben Spencer for the Daily Mail
Published: 23:46 GMT, 4 April 2016 | Updated: 08:08 GMT, 5 April 2016

Singing in a choir boosts the immune system and even helps the body fight cancer, according to research.

Scientists found that just one hour of singing significantly increased levels of the immune proteins that the body uses to battle serious illnesses including cancer.

Experts have long known that singing improves mood.

But the new research, conducted by scientists at Imperial College London, University College London and the Royal College of Music, found that it also has a profound impact on the immune system.
Singing in a choir boosts the immune system and even helps the body fight cancer, according to research conducted by Imperial College London, University College London and the Royal College of Music

Singing in a choir boosts the immune system and even helps the body fight cancer, according to research conducted by Imperial College London, University College London and the Royal College of Music

The team found that singing for an hour resulted in significant reductions in stress hormones, such as cortisol, and increases in cytokines, immune proteins that boost the body’s ability to fight serious illness.

Doctors suspect that reducing stress and anxiety takes strain off the immune system, allowing it to better use its resources at fighting disease.

The research raises the possibility that singing in a choir could help to put cancer patients in the best possible position to receive treatment and stop tumours from returning afterwards.

The project, which was funded by the Tenovus Cancer Care charity, tested 193 members of five different choirs in Cardiff, Bridgend, Pontypridd, Cwmbran and Swansea.

Of the participants, 55 had cancer.

Choir members gave samples of their saliva before an hour of singing, and then again just after. The samples were analysed to see what changes occurred in levels of hormones and immune proteins.

The study, published in the journal ECancer Medical Science, also found that people who were suffering most from depression experienced greatest mood improvement.

Levels of inflammation in the body, which is known to impede the immune system, were also lowered.

Dr Ian Lewis, director of research and policy at Tenovus Cancer Care and co-author of the research, said: ‘These are really exciting findings.

‘We have been building a body of evidence over the past six years to show that singing in a choir can have a range of social, emotional and psychological benefits, and now we can see it has biological effects too.

‘We’ve long heard anecdotal evidence that singing in a choir makes people feel good, but this is the first time it’s been demonstrated that the immune system can be affected by singing. It’s really exciting and could enhance the way we support people with cancer in the future.’
Scientists found that just one hour of singing significantly increased levels of the immune proteins that the body uses to battle serious illnesses including cancer

Scientists found that just one hour of singing significantly increased levels of the immune proteins that the body uses to battle serious illnesses including cancer

Dr Daisy Fancourt, research associate at the Centre for Performance Science, a partnership between the Royal College of Music and Imperial College London, added: ‘Many people affected by cancer can experience psychological difficulties such as stress, anxiety and depression.

Research has demonstrated that these can suppress immune activity, at a time when patients need as much support as they can get from their immune system.

‘This research is exciting as it suggests that an activity as simple as singing could reduce some of this stress-induced suppression, helping to improve wellbeing and quality of life among patients and put them in the best position to receive treatment.’

This research is exciting as it suggests that an activity as simple as singing could reduce some of this stress-induced suppression

Diane Raybould, 64, a breast cancer patient who took part in the study, has been singing with the Bridgend Sing with Us choir since 2010.

She said: ‘Singing in the choir is about more than just enjoyment, it genuinely makes you feel better.

‘The choir leaders play a huge part of course, but so does the support of the other choir members, the inspirational programme and uplifting songs.

‘The choir is a family, simple as that. Having cancer and losing someone to cancer can be very isolating. With the choir, you can share experiences openly and that is hugely important.’

Co-author Rosie Dow, head of Sing with Us project at Tenovus Cancer Care, added: ‘This research is so exciting, as it echoes everything all our choir members tell us about how singing has helped them.

‘I’ve seen peoples’ lives transformed through singing in our choirs so knowing that singing also makes a biological difference will hopefully help us to reach more people with the message that singing is great for you - mind, body and soul.’
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: jessegilbert1 on April 12, 2016, 04:23 AM
Just wondering if any of you guys can sing, play guitar, piano...anything musical really!

If so...why not let all all hear you?!  Would love to hear/see some recordings of you guys!

~Stephen

Yip http://jessegilbert.com/music/ (http://jessegilbert.com/music/)I mix beats but seeing as I probably can't make a fulltime living from it I got into software dev.

Part of the use for my software is for brainstorming and devising lyrics and I'm trying to get musicians into it.

Working on some new features for song dev too.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on April 20, 2016, 03:13 PM
This is a little specialized and directed at bass players, modders and builders.

A gentleman in Germany who goes by the name of Cadfael has published in PDF format (and free of charge), a labor of what can only be described as love. He modestly calls it his Small Collection of Schematics for Passive Electric Basses.

I'm not sure what's small about it. It contains over 350 different wiring diagrams and schematics (historic and modded) for wiring, repairing, or rewiring an electric bass guitar. And it runs to 487 pages in its current (and probably last) incarnation.

This is a truly valuable resource and is very professionally done. Nothing like the usual half-assed and frequently inaccurate diagrams you'll find in most guitar wiring collections. The text is in German. But it's easy enough to follow. And where it isn't, a quick and dirty translation via Google or another online translation site will do ya. There's not a lot that needs be said most times since wiring diagrams and schematics are fairly standardized worldwide.

Here's a sample of what you can expect at 50% actual size:

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

To visit his English page (download link for PDF is at the bottom of the page) look here (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2F161589.homepagemodules.de%2Ft29f2-Cadfaels-kleine-Schaltplan-Sammlung-fuer-passive-E-Baesse.html&act=url%22).

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on April 20, 2016, 08:14 PM
Very nice!  Reminds me of the Artec general wiring book for guitar, which though limited in scope, the diagrams are well laid-out and handy as a basic reference when repairing an off-the shelf axe.  I just wish it was as full-featured as Mr. Cadfael's, though.  :(
http://www.artecsound.com/wiring/wiring_book01.pdf
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 21, 2016, 12:26 PM
A bad year for music.  First Bowie, and now Prince.  Two innovators in music in the same year.   :(
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on April 21, 2016, 01:37 PM
A bad year for music.  First Bowie, and now Prince.  Two innovators in music in the same year.   :(

So it goes.…

And for some odd reason, I get the feeling that the bad news for 'this year in music' isn't over yet.

Hope I'm wrong about that.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: tomos on April 21, 2016, 03:31 PM
A bad year for music.  First Bowie, and now Prince.  Two innovators in music in the same year.   :(

wow, that was a surprise  :(

EDIT// realised that might have sounded a bit flippant. I really was stunned by that one, I guess because of his age, and not having heard of any illness etc.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 21, 2016, 04:37 PM
A bad year for music.  First Bowie, and now Prince.  Two innovators in music in the same year.   :(

wow, that was a surprise  :(

EDIT// realised that might have sounded a bit flippant. I really was stunned by that one, I guess because of his age, and not having heard of any illness etc.

He apparently had shown signs- but without a cause of death, they aren't really conclusive.

On April 14th, he was supposed to do a concert in Atlanta.  Canceled it, but then did a little set to make up for it.  It was low key for him.  Flew home, and made an emergency stop in Chicago at the hospital.  It was apparently the flu, from his publicist.  Headed home, and was recovering.  The police found him in the elevator in his residence, so people are presuming it was complications from that.  Flu kills older people, so it makes sense.  But still sad.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Deozaan on April 21, 2016, 06:04 PM
Flu kills older people, so it makes sense.

Is 57 considered "older" these days? I thought 50 was the new 35. Or all the marketing departments just lying in an attempt to appeal to the baby boomer generation?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 21, 2016, 06:13 PM
Flu kills older people, so it makes sense.

Is 57 considered "older" these days? I thought 50 was the new 35. Or all the marketing departments just lying in an attempt to appeal to the baby boomer generation?

Biology and Physiology don't subscribe to anything but science.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Deozaan on April 21, 2016, 07:25 PM
Flu kills older people, so it makes sense.

Is 57 considered "older" these days? I thought 50 was the new 35. Or all the marketing departments just lying in an attempt to appeal to the baby boomer generation?

Biology and Physiology don't subscribe to anything but science.

Science has made it so that people can live longer, healthier lives. So, considering the improvements in science and medicine, is 57 still considered "older" these days?

Patrick Stewart doesn't seem too old at 75. Christopher Lee, while definitely "older" was pretty active and accomplished up until he died last year at 93.

Of course, those may be outliers. But my point is that years are just numbers. There's nothing, biologically speaking, that says no matter our circumstances, health, diet, etc., that we are "old" at a certain number of years. The numbers seem to be trending higher (meaning people are still looking "young" and being healthy at increasing years). And while these things tend to vary wildly, most people I know in their 50s don't seem that old to me. But there are a lot of possible explanations for that.

And since "older" is a relative term which isn't well defined, you and I may have different ideas what it means to be an "older" person. Really that's probably the issue here. I didn't really mean anything by my comment about 50 being the new 35. I guess I was just surprised at 57 being considered "older" because to me it doesn't seem to fit my idea of an "older" person. Time for me to adjust my perspective. :)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 21, 2016, 07:54 PM
Science has made it so that people can live longer, healthier lives. So, considering the improvements in science and medicine, is 57 still considered "older" these days?

In terms of the Flu?  Yes.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/65over.htm

They say 65, but I've seen for quite a few that it starts getting bad in the late 50s.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Stoic Joker on April 22, 2016, 11:16 AM
I didn't really mean anything by my comment about 50 being the new 35. I guess I was just surprised at 57 being considered "older" because to me it doesn't seem to fit my idea of an "older" person. Time for me to adjust my perspective.

Oh bullshit...there is nothing wrong with your perspective. 57 is older than 35 true...but it isn't older like people think of their grandparents being "older".

...Even if I am a grandfather at 51, that's different.. :D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 22, 2016, 12:04 PM
I didn't really mean anything by my comment about 50 being the new 35. I guess I was just surprised at 57 being considered "older" because to me it doesn't seem to fit my idea of an "older" person. Time for me to adjust my perspective.

Oh bullshit...there is nothing wrong with your perspective. 57 is older than 35 true...but it isn't older like people think of their grandparents being "older".

...Even if I am a grandfather at 51, that's different.. :D


Once you get into the older middle age, you have to start thinking about it not as middle aged, but as older for certain medical things.  I wish I'd thought about it as such, and I'm not yet to the half-century mark.  It was a lot harder for me to get over a full fledged blowout of the flu last year, so I make sure I get the vaccine.  I got shingles (though I'd asked my stupid doctor about the vaccine a little before, and she said they don't give it to people my age), and now have post-herpetic neuralgia chronically because of it... when I could have just paid the money for the vaccine.  My brother in law (50-something) lost a good part of his vision because of it. 

It's that "I'm not old syndrome" that kills a lot of people younger than they need to be dead.  Especially in regards to going to the doctor regularly.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Stoic Joker on April 22, 2016, 01:13 PM
I didn't really mean anything by my comment about 50 being the new 35. I guess I was just surprised at 57 being considered "older" because to me it doesn't seem to fit my idea of an "older" person. Time for me to adjust my perspective.

Oh bullshit...there is nothing wrong with your perspective. 57 is older than 35 true...but it isn't older like people think of their grandparents being "older".

...Even if I am a grandfather at 51, that's different.. :D


Once you get into the older upper middle age, you have to start thinking about it not as middle aged, but as older for certain medical things.

ftfy :D


I wish I'd thought about it as such, and I'm not yet to the half-century mark.

Really??? I thought you were a bit older than I am.


It was a lot harder for me to get over a full fledged blowout of the flu last year, so I make sure I get the vaccine.


I got vaccinated once back when I was 5 - Didn't like it much - haven't gone back.. ;)

Honestly I think genetics factors in to things much more than half the vaccines they push on people do. If you have a good immune system, you're most likely just fine. Despite just having had one, I seldom get colds and have never had the flu. I've also never had chickenpox, measles, or mumps ... My sister did. But not me.

And yes, I know I'm an odd case that shouldn't be used as advice for/by anyone, but...


It's that "I'm not old syndrome" that kills a lot of people younger than they need to be dead.  Especially in regards to going to the doctor regularly.

I'm old, but I'm not old ... and I've no interest in getting stuck on a bunch of pills by some quack that is "Practicing" medicine because they think I should be on something...for some reason...that's probably insurance billing related.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 22, 2016, 02:54 PM
I'm old, but I'm not old ... and I've no interest in getting stuck on a bunch of pills by some quack that is "Practicing" medicine because they think I should be on something...for some reason...that's probably insurance billing related.

Yeah... I thought that way too.  But seeing the progression of deaths in the 40s made me rethink that, though I do scrutinize what they tell me.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on April 23, 2016, 12:38 PM
Flu kills older people, so it makes sense.

Is 57 considered "older" these days? I thought 50 was the new 35. Or all the marketing departments just lying in an attempt to appeal to the baby boomer generation?


"Age" is far more a state of mind than it is a state of grace. And life threatening medical issues can crop up at any age. Being young doesn't make you immune to it. Nor does being older guarantee you're going to become just another statistic. Genes, luck of the draw, quality of care received, degree of health education, speed of diagnosis, and the amount of responsibility you take for your own health all factor into the equation.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 24, 2016, 01:34 PM
Man... more bad news for music.

Lonnie Mack, Blues-Rock Guitar Great, Dead at 74

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/lonnie-mack-blues-rock-guitar-great-dead-at-74-20160423
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: vrgrrl on April 24, 2016, 06:53 PM
Yeah I have a music performance BFA in flute from undergrad. Then I play a little piano and am learning the guitar. I can also double on oboe.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 25, 2016, 11:08 AM


Prince... and Miles Davis?  I'd never seen this before... circa 1987.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 25, 2016, 11:59 AM
And for some odd reason, I get the feeling that the bad news for 'this year in music' isn't over yet.

"Me and Mrs. Jones" singer Billy Paul dies at age 81 (http://www.soultracks.com/story-billy-paul-dies)

Pop music fans may have only known Billy Paul for a single song, but what a song it was. And soul music fans will remember the much deeper catalog of soul and jazz recordings and live performances that kept Billy in our minds right until this sad day. He will be missed and remembered.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 25, 2016, 12:28 PM
Interesting articles on Prince's fight with technology and the impetus of the "I want it now" generation.

Prince vs The Internet: Why His Fight For Art Mattered (http://www.bet.com/news/music/2016/04/24/prince-vs-the-internet--why-his-fight-for-art-mattered.html)

Prince Makes King Move with Tidal [INTERVIEW] (http://www.ebony.com/entertainment-culture/prince-makes-king-move-with-tidal-interview-999#axzz46fF6FgAP)

Prince: ‘Transcendence. That’s what you want. When that happens – Oh, boy' (http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/nov/12/prince-interview-paisley-park-studios-minneapolis)

I'd never heard this stuff before.  Any thoughts on it?  Especially on album track order?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 25, 2016, 01:02 PM
Interesting thing from the comments on an article that led me to two great artists that I'd not even heard about.

Well, as others have pointed out (and I've experienced this as a bit of a creative myself--I'm a photographer) you would like to make enough off your skills, vision and effort that you can continue to afford to do what you love, and be able to focus on it instead of having to take other work just to pay the bills.

Speaking to music, the world has been sadly deprived of two fantastically talented artists, Mark Linkous and Vic Chesnutt, both of who killed themselves and in both cases, friends have said, financial struggles contributed to their depression and may have led to some extent to their deaths. Both had physical problems that likely made touring somewhat onerous, and they did not seem emotionally equipped for the rigours of life on the road. It's a shame that they couldn't make enough off their recorded output--even though they were never huge sellers, both had a fanatically loyal fanbase and vast critical acclaim--to sustain them financially.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on April 25, 2016, 02:58 PM
Regardless of how talented you may be, music is still a group effort more often than not. And while it's good to stand on your aesthetic sensibilities, "vision," and your principles, it's still no excuse for being utterly insensitive to other creatives, or difficult to work with.

While I hesitate to pass judgement on any musician I haven't personally worked with (except for Jeff Beck! I have no qualms about dissing Jeff Beck!!!  >:( ) based on most of what I've seen and read about the man over the course of his career (including his own words from several interviews), I can't help but conclude he was a royal horse's ass - and a royal pain in the ass to work with at even the best of times. And while talented and obviously an accomplished musician, I don't see anything in his career that justifies elevating him to the status of a minor deity that the popular press seems so intent on making him. He was a very good pop musician. And an accomplished stage performer. And that's about all he was. Shouldn't that be enough?
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on April 25, 2016, 04:52 PM
Regardless of how talented you may be, music is still a group effort more often than not. And while it's good to stand on your aesthetic sensibilities, "vision," and your principles, it's still no excuse for being utterly insensitive to other creatives, or difficult to work with.

While I hesitate to pass judgement on any musician I haven't personally worked with (except for Jeff Beck! I have no qualms about dissing Jeff Beck!!!  >:( ) based on most of what I've seen and read about the man over the course of his career (including his own words from several interviews), I can't help but conclude he was a royal horse's ass - and a royal pain in the ass to work with at even the best of times. And while talented and obviously an accomplished musician, I don't see anything in his career that justifies elevating him to the status of a minor deity that the popular press seems so intent on making him. He was a very good pop musician. And an accomplished stage performer. And that's about all he was. Shouldn't that be enough?

I think everyone has their days that they are hard to get along with.  Especially when you are performing at a high level.  But I'd personally put him at very much more than a very good pop musician and an accomplished stage performer.  And I wouldn't say that assessment was him all the time- especially looking at the sum of people that knew him  And I think he affected music and lot beside on the same level that Bowie did.

But, everyone will have their own perceptions of what a person leaves when they depart this existence.  I think that's what legacy is about.  And along those lines, I was talking more about his affect on the music industry and the reasons behind his tight control of his music.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on April 25, 2016, 09:26 PM
...I think he affected music and lot beside on the same level that Bowie did.

I'd have to disagree on granting him that much. But to your earlier point, different people will have different perceptions of him. I see him more as a cause célèbre in the music world rather than a genuine bellwhether. But that's me. And I'm just a bassplayer - so what do I know?  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on April 25, 2016, 09:57 PM
And I'm just a bassplayer - so what do I know?  

http://kekbfm.com/how-many-bass-players-does-it-take-to-change-a-light-bulb/
 ;D(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/3Smileys/harhar.gif)
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Edvard on May 01, 2016, 07:42 PM
OK, now I have absolutely no excuse at all...
This guy has built 14 guitars out of scrap wood, epoxy, and nails or galvanized iron wire for frets (NAILS!), NO power tools OR clamps:

www.instructables.com/id/diy-cheap-bass-or-electric-guitar/

I cringe when I see the guitar body constructed like a losing game of Tetris, but in the end he has a guitar that works, and I am left speechless.
Where there's a will, there's a way...
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on May 04, 2016, 03:49 PM
For the last month I've been going to a Tuesday night jam, which got me authorization from the wife to buy my Ampeg 2x10 a twin brother. A guitarist I've played with each of the 3 times I got up is putting together a band, and asked me to play bass. I've enjoyed playing with him, and he has the seal of approval from my friend Kenny. He knows (or knows about) all the live music in the area, and he's as good a judge of character as I've ever met.

The best part is now that I'm going to these things as a player, my wife suddenly decided she wanted to go with me. I wasn't expecting that to last, since she gets up crazy early in the morning and, frankly, had never shown much interest in checking out local musicians. That changed last night, when I made her wait for 1 more group of musicians to play.

The reason I insisted on staying was the guy who had walked in about 20 minutes before I got up. Hopefully he couldn't hear me any better than I could. He's a hero in the local blues scene named Bob Pace. The kind of guy you find in little markets all over. He's better than all his peers, at the level of the top session guys, but lacking the extra little something that vaults you from top pro to all time great. In fact, I saw him open for Johnny Winter back in 2000, and his band (as headliners) would have been worth the extremely modest ticket price. Then Johnny took the stage, and that was a whole other level of playing.

My wife agreed that Bob's performance was worth the wait, and I think she really paid attention to the music in a way she almost never does. She even suggested we check out the Sunday night jam, hosted by some of the players who show up every Tuesday, starting on Mother's Day. Yes, I do have the world's most awesome wife!
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on July 29, 2016, 06:25 PM
Just wanted to post this in case anyone was interested:

Carbon Fiber Travel Guitars || KLOS Guitars 2.0
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/klos/carbon-fiber-travel-guitars-klos-guitars-20

10 days left, and 10 are left at $575 right now.  Retail is projected to be $656.

I'd think about backing it if I had the spare funds.  Only downside is that Klos isn't a proven brand, nor company.  So it's still a risk.  Caveat emptor.

Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on July 29, 2016, 08:22 PM
@Vurbal - that sounds pretty awesome. And your wife reminds of my own lady a little. Sounds like a keeper.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: 40hz on July 29, 2016, 08:28 PM
For anybody who is a builder, I just got a copy of a terrific book by Helmuth Lemmee titled Electric Guitar: Sound Secrets and Technology.

Probably one of the single best no-BS discussions (with wiring schematics in the electronics section) on factors contributing to the sound you hear coming from electric guitars and basses.

Highly recommended.

This (https://www.princeton.edu/ssp/joseph-henry-project/electric-guitar-pickup/Guitar-Pickup-Theory.pdf) is an excerpt from his book so you can check it out and get an idea of the caliber of the information found within.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: mouser on July 29, 2016, 08:43 PM
The best part is now that I'm going to these things as a player,

Cool!!!!

Tell her to take some video of the next jam and post it.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on July 30, 2016, 07:45 AM
@Vurbal - that sounds pretty awesome. And your wife reminds of my own lady a little. Sounds like a keeper.

She certainly is! And I'm not saying that because she just bought me a set of Sadowsky Black Label flatwounds for my birthday... well not just that.  :D

Unfortunately, that band doesn't look like it's ever going to completely come together, but, as it happens, I've got opportunities coming out of the woodwork now. A couple weeks ago, a guitarist I've played with quite a bit got me an invite to a private get together with a local drummer who's looking to put together a 60s and early 70s R&B/Soul group. It was a great afternoon, and I apparently impressed everybody there by blowing through a bunch of songs I didn't know (all but like 2 songs we played) by just picking up on the groove and running with it.

The R&B project doesn't have a timeline yet, since the drummer is recuperating from a health scare he had a couple months back, but he would like to be playing out by the end of September. But another drummer who was there invited me to possibly do some recording with him on an originals project he's doing with a guitarist. They call it prog, which it really isn't. Mostly, it just has slightly oddball time signatures, like 9/8. However, it's interesting enough for me to spend a couple hours every weekend working on bass lines, and recording is another mountain I was looking to conquer eventually anyway.

The most exciting one for me, though, is this. Since my wife and I started going to the Sunday night jam, I've gotten a lot more stage time, since very few bass players show up. By the end of the night, the host band's bassist and I usually end up taking 3-4 songs at a time. After a lot of playing time together, a very good guitarist who's been sitting in with them, mostly just to fill up his musical calendar, wants me to work with him on an originals project - sort of a late 60s style power trio. He's apparently been looking for a bassist for months, but couldn't find anybody who played melodically enough. He also invited me to come sit in with him at an open mic night he hosts about 15 minutes away from my house.

Of course, the downside, as any musician (or music lover period) who has sat through enough open jams can tell you, is listening to the same handful of standards being butchered almost weekly. There are only so many times you can hear They Call It Stormy Monday played without feeling before you snap. Don't get me started on Cissy Strut or Shakey Ground. Let's just say that some people should not be allowed to play funk in public.

Not that I'm claiming to be perfect. A friend of mine showed up one night and wanted to sing Me and Bobby McGee, which she does very well, even when both the guitar and bass are off key, as it turns out. Since the guitarist and I had both played it in the past, we just looked up the chords as a refresher before hand. Unfortunately, we didn't look closely enough to remember the key change after the first verse. :o We spent most of the rest of the song giving each other funny looks, since neither one of us could figure out exactly what was wrong. Fortunately, the singer is a real pro, so we only made ourselves look stupid.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: mouser on July 30, 2016, 08:30 AM
There are only so many times you can hear They Call It Stormy Monday

Speaking of which, here's a fantastic version of Stormy Weather by John LaPorta and Charles Mingus:
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on July 30, 2016, 12:49 PM
That Stormy Weather rendition, while I love the vocals, so missed that, is definitely excellent from an instrumental standpoint.  It brought to memory one of my regrets.  My father was very big into Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, and many more performers of that era.  And he was really into musicals- Gershwin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, etc.  In fact, I remember my proudest moment was giving him the complete selection of Rodgers and Hammerstein on DVD when they first came out.  A pretty penny, but the look on his face...

Now that he's gone, and I've started to appreciate that music, I kick myself, and it makes me sad.  I never took the time to cross to his side of the street until it was too late, and I find myself wondering what he thought/would think about certain renditions, or composers, or dancers that I was never interested enough to ask him about.

sigh
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: mouser on July 30, 2016, 07:07 PM
Now that he's gone, and I've started to appreciate that music, I kick myself, and it makes me sad.
I know the feeling, that seems to be how it goes for many of us.. As Joni Mitchel said, "don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone..."
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on July 31, 2016, 10:35 AM
That Stormy Weather rendition, while I love the vocals, so missed that, is definitely excellent from an instrumental standpoint.  It brought to memory one of my regrets.  My father was very big into Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Count Basie, Duke Ellington, and many more performers of that era.  And he was really into musicals- Gershwin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, etc.  In fact, I remember my proudest moment was giving him the complete selection of Rodgers and Hammerstein on DVD when they first came out.  A pretty penny, but the look on his face...

Now that he's gone, and I've started to appreciate that music, I kick myself, and it makes me sad.  I never took the time to cross to his side of the street until it was too late, and I find myself wondering what he thought/would think about certain renditions, or composers, or dancers that I was never interested enough to ask him about.

sigh
That sounds so much like my dad, except add in old country music, or as he called it, having grown up in the Alleghany Mountains, hillbilly music.

Sharing that music with me is no small part of what made us so close, although being his first son certainly had something to do with it. I was 16 when he died, and that's one of the few things I had left to hang on to. I'm not sure that helps, but maybe it would have, had he lived longer. My big regret is how our relationship was in the last year or 2 he was alive. It was probably better than most teenagers have with their parents, but it still hurts to think about how I left things with him.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on July 31, 2016, 12:25 PM
It was probably better than most teenagers have with their parents, but it still hurts to think about how I left things with him.


Regrets.  Just one of the things we don't understand when we're young, and have too much understanding of as we get older.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: Vurbal on October 10, 2016, 02:37 PM
Hmmm... I typed this out the other day, and apparently forgot to hit send. Damn ADD. Let's give it another try.

A week ago I went to an open jam and a friend of mine I hadn't seen in several years was sitting in on drums. He's not around town too much because he does a lot of touring with various artists. I was asking him about a couple of his recent gigs - playing in Paul Rodgers' touring band, followed by a Bad Company tour where he worked as Simon Kirke's drum tech. It turns out he's getting ready to go down to Florida to work with Paul's son Steve.

That's cool, but this was the really cool bit for me. One day he asked Simon if he still had the drum kit he played with Free at the Isle of Wight, and Simon said Paul had it, last he knew. The next time he saw Paul, he asked him about the kit, and Paul said he thought it was in his basement. At this point he's getting excited, so he calls Steve in Florida (at Paul's house) and asks him to check for a gold drum kit in the basement. Sure enough, it's sitting down there, looking like it hasn't been played since the Free days. It even still has the kick drum head with 'Free' hand painted on it.

Simon and Paul don't really care much about it. To them it's just some old drums, but my friend is planning to get it cleaned up while he's in Florida, so it can be preserved, and maybe put on display somewhere further down the road.

He couldn't show me the pictures of the kit, since he didn't have his phone with him, but with any luck he (and his phone) will show up at the jam tonight.
Title: Luna Lee plays rock on the 6th century Korean Kayagum stringed instrument.
Post by: IainB on November 25, 2016, 09:07 AM
I have always been interested in musical instruments, including those from other cultures and ages.
I don't know whether people reading this will have seen/heard this rock music played by one Luna Lee on the 6th century Korean Kayagum stringed instrument, but I hadn't.
See the openculture.com blog post:
Three Pink Floyd Songs Played on the Traditional Korean Gayageum: “Comfortably Numb,” “Another Brick in the Wall” & “Great Gig in the Sky' (http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/three-pink-floyd-songs-played-on-the-traditional-korean-gayageum.html)

Check out especially: Pink Floyd- Another Brick In The Wall Gayageum ver. by Luna (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxoKq1RfTVE)

Having tried to play a sitar, I was always impressed with how well the Beatles incorporated and fitted the sitar neatly into some of their instrumental music. I gather that Ravi Shankar had introduced them to the sitar, but their use of it generally retained the style and tradition of the sitar instrument in its Indian music context, whereas the modified Korean Kayagum, as played by Luna Lee, is a completely transformed instrument. It seems to have been imaginatively and almost violently pushed into the era and culturally foreign context of Western rock music. However, I think it works surprisingly and exceeding well, and sounds stunning in the "Wall" rendition (one of my favourite pieces of music).

Anyway, I think I might prefer it to K-Pop - which my half-Asian daughter has recently become a fan of and has introduced me to, and which I am listening to and entertained by, though I can't help feeling that it seems to be formulaic MTV stuff, too artificially Japanesey-cute, lacking in originality and seemingly borrowing variously from and blending the Spice Girls, Nikki Minage, Pussycat Dolls, Sugababes and others. Not much different to, but probably harmonically nicer-sounding than the majority of the current crop of pop music, I suppose.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: wraith808 on March 23, 2018, 12:32 PM
"Thread Arise!" commands the necromancer.  ;D

Just read a troubling ruling that only one appeals judge seemed to know anything about.

Appeals Court Says It's Okay To Copyright An Entire Style Of Music (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180321/11202439470/appeals-court-says-okay-to-copyright-entire-style-music.shtml)

In the dissenting opinion, Judge Jacqueline Nguyen wrote the following:

The majority allows the Gayes to accomplish what no one has before: copyright a musical style. “Blurred Lines” and “Got to Give It Up” are not objectively similar. They differ in melody, harmony, and rhythm. Yet by refusing to compare the two works, the majority establishes a dangerous precedent that strikes a devastating blow to future musicians and composers everywhere.

More at the link, but I can't help but nod as she continues.  A sad, sad day.

Adding a bit about how the decision has affected musicians:

Now though, music experts have told the Victoria Derbyshire programme that artists are being advised not to mention publicly who has inspired them. This is because of a high-profile copyright infringement case in which US jurors ruled that Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams, on their song Blurred Lines, had copied Marvin Gaye's Got To Give It Up.

According to forensic musicologist Peter Oxendale "everyone's concerned that inspiration can [now be interpreted as] a catalyst for infringement.

"All of these companies are worried that if a track is referenced on another at all, there may be a claim being brought," he explains.
Title: Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
Post by: IainB on March 23, 2018, 02:36 PM
^^ Crikey, that does seem odd - I don't think I quite understand that. It may be lacking in precise definition. I mean, under what circumstances could it be held to be true (i.e., that style imitation is the legal case)? Presumably under many/most circumstances? That, as an intention, wouldn't seem to make sense.

If so, then I don't know about it being a "devastating" blow, though it would certainly seem as though it could be a crippling blow to musicians that could devastate/monopolise the music industry (perhaps that's an objective?).

It would be a truism to state that most modern music could be (arguably and/or perceptually) said to be innovated from/on top of earlier musical styles, and indeed the same could probably be arguably and/or perceptually said to be true of most/all art and architecture - e.g., pre-Raphaelites, Baroque, rock music, pop music, classical music, choral music, trad jazz, The Beatles music, even tribal music, etc.
Having (say) a ¾ rhythm in a musical score, or building a conventional house with 4 walls and a roof, or making a dress with a low back like a modern fashion-house's style, could all variously be deemed to be imitating/copying a style.
What would be the limits/constraints? Maybe this could even be extended to become a legalisation of cultural copyright? It would stop "cultural appropriation". The English language will have to give back those parts of it that were "borrowed" from other languages. That wouldn't leave much left of the English language. Esperanto would certainly be dead in the water, since it was designed to reflect and be as "inclusive" as possible of many/most other languages. What about Pig Latin and White Russian "code" languages? The mind boggles.

Style imitation/emulation is all around us. It is how any relatively civiliizing culture tends to develop. The Reformation, anyone?
For recent example, in music, look at what I wrote in the preceding post: (my emphasis)
...though I can't help feeling that it seems to be formulaic MTV stuff, too artificially Japanesey-cute, lacking in originality and seemingly borrowing variously from and blending the Spice Girls, Nikki Minage, Pussycat Dolls, Sugababes and others. Not much different to, but probably harmonically nicer-sounding than the majority of the current crop of pop music, I suppose.

It could also perhaps rather put the kybosh on rock music being played by one Luna Lee on the 6th century Korean Kayagum stringed instrument.
We'd all be the losers.