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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: ak_ on August 21, 2007, 08:58 AM
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Hi, my pc stopped working lately (i think the motherboard is to blame) and as he's rather old and obsolete, i'm planning to get a new configuration (my main activity is to manipulate large image fileson Photoshop, and i'm hoping to do some gaming from time to time eheh). I'm really not an expert about hardware so if you can have a look at what i'm about to buy and tell me what you think, it will be very appreciated. The goal of this topic is to avoid buying material with unknown disfunctions like it can happen sometimes with computers :)
- Motherboard : ASUS M2N SLI DELUXE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131013R)
- Processor : AMD DUAL CORE X2 6000+ (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103773)
- RAM : 2 x 2gb DDR2
- Graphic card : SAPPHIRE ATI Radeon X1950 Pro (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102061)
- Hard drive : SEAGATE Barracuda 80Gb (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148231) (note : i have two external hard drives where i stock documents)
- Screen : Samsung Syncmaster 206BW (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001095&Tpk=Samsung%2b206BW)
Thanks :)
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I can comment on the screen, since i have the previous version (205BW).
I love it :-* :-* :)
But a friend of mine told me that they are now releasing some with a panel that has an inferior quality, you should pay attention to that.
I also recomend the idea of having 4GB of ram. If i bought a desktop computer, that's what i'd do.
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JPGaiva> thanks :) I know about the Samsung 206BW problems, i'll pay attention to this. I've read that the problem can be fixed with appropriate icc profiles, but that's not sure. Maybe i won't take the risk.
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I'd go for a nvidia card and an intel core2duo instead...
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CRT > LCD for any sort of image manipulation (especially if you get a 'multisync' or 'multiscan' one 8)).
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If you are getting an SLI mobo why go for an ATI graphics card? If you want an SLI mobo you'd be better with an nVidia card (and preferably 2 identical SLI compatible cards if you can afford it and want maximum graphics capability).
If you are committed to the idea of ATI cards why not get an ATI CrossFire compatible mobo - even if you don't fit a pair of graphics cards now you could add a second card at a later date.
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CRT > LCD for any sort of image manipulation (especially if you get a 'multisync' or 'multiscan' one 8)).
-tonsofpcs
Disagree these days - I stuck with CRT for years for precisely that reason but I wouldn't go back now I have moved to LCD. Newer LCD displays are much clearer - and with good colour management seem to have much truer colours to my eyes. They are also fine for video editing these days - I can't see any ghosting on mine (which was another reason people didn't like LCD in the past).
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Yeah, i've been told that the gap between CRT and LCD display is really getting smaller and smaller. An friend of mine who's an illustrator told me he had no problems working on a LCD monitor. I think i'll give Samsung 206BW a try (if i can find the right model) :)
fodder> well, if i take an Intel processor i have to change the motherboard aswell. And the price is higher, too and i can't really afford a more expensive configuration. I guess the AMD choice is a good compromise, isn't it ?
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Yes, it totally SUCKS ;D
Actually, my computer is pretty much that (less processor speed and more HDD). Let's see... I suggest you a bit more HDD for future proof. If you upgrade to Vista sometime, you'll thank it. 160 or 320 GB will suffice, and they're pretty affordable. I would recommend against 4 GB for now, unless you plan to go Vista (and the x64 route as well). I side with f0dder in the Core 2 Duo option, although it would cost you a bit more as motherboards for Intel CPUs tend to be more expensive that those designed for AMD. Totally against nVidia graphics. Unless you want to go with a DirectX 10 compatible card, I suggest ATI as it totally obliterates the competition ;). Also, don't go the SLI or Crossfire route, unless you plan to add some specific functionality (for example, running more than two monitors at once) or gaming at insane resolutions. IMHO it's a total waste of money.
Let's move to better things. What about CPU cooling, case, PSU, DVD writers? Are you going to use some older parts? In that case, could you please give us some insight about them?
As for monitors... if this was a enthusiast forum, people would be suggesting 1400 € monitors, but this is not the case :). If you can see monitors in action, the merrier. Most LCDs are using TN film, which makes them quite less accurate when it comes to color reproduction (they use 6 bits instead of 8 bits). Paying more will yield (theoretical) better results. Personally, I feel that LCDs are quite good now, even the cheaper ones, but for a graphic illustrator like you, it could be a different thing.
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I have not seen a major difference between AMD and Intel personally, so given the cost difference, I think you went the right route. However, unless there is a good reason to stick with the ATI card, I do follow the suggestion of an NVidia card instead. Or, given your graphics needs, maybe consider Matrox. I haven't dealt with them in a long time, though, so I am not certain they still hold the edge for graphics. NVidia is definitely the game leader though with great graphics capabilities. Though the SLI board is a bit of overkill if you won't use it. Look for non-SLI boards if you are sticking with one card. They are usually cheaper, and most vendors offer an SLI board and a non-SLI board that is otherwise the same. Also, due to the Photoshop and cheap memory, I definitely think you should stick with your 4GB Memory.
Lastly, if you have the money for it, the bigger hard drive is a good choice. Be careful though, you can frequently get multiple smaller drives for the same total size for a smaller price. As long as heat and case space is not an issue, find that sweet spot and buy multiple drives as appropriate. You then can do several things with it that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do, such as mirror the drives, stripe them in a raid, or partition them separately to minimize rebuild times as appropriate to your goals. Personally, I suggest getting 3 or 4 (if possible) and make them a striped array. This gives a small (though not insignificant) performance boost especially with photoshop, while giving you a better chance at recovery if one goes bad (if two go at the same time you are still screwed though, so never use this in place of a good backup strategy!)
EDIT: BTW - Just wanted to say I like your choice of components. Seagate drives in particular seem a cut above to me. The Western Digital ones work very well too, but are much louder in my experience. Sticking with these quality components will help ensure that you will get good support if needed as well. As to your original question, No, it doesn't suck, even as written, the comments made are just to help you tweak your thoughts from our own opinions. Good luck.
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LCD will be fine - providing you are happy to spend a little more for a decent LCD monitor.
i've got an EIZO screen and i've compared it with many other LCDs - nothing compares to it.
it's still not as good as a very good CRT but that's only in the blacks - the rest of the colours are fine.
i used to be one of the hardcore CRT boys and held out for quite a few years before going LCD. i've still got my old CRT monitor (which still isn't a bad one even today) but the EIZO is far better to work with. less eye strain, sharper image, more vibrant - just better really.
just get a good LCD, budget ones or the ones at the lower end of the market are fine for general use but as you are an illustrator i'm sure you are going to hate how they look.
i paid over £1000, it's probably half that price today, but when i compare it to LCDs that cost around 300 or less the difference in picture quality is obvious. and i do mean obvious.
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Thanks everybody for your quick and interesting answers :D
About SLI : well, hum, i didn't even know what it was before you told me about it :) My choice of components is based on what i've read on multiple websites. Soooo yeah, maybe i don't need a SLI motherboard. Which one then ? What about this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131040) ? Seems to be the same as my original choice without the SLI feature. What do you think ? If you think it's not a good choice, can you please suggest something else ? (considering that price is REALLY important).
Also, due to the Photoshop and cheap memory, I definitely think you should stick with your 4GB Memory.-steeladept
That's what i think too :) I've worked on 600dpi images with 2gb of RAM and i think 4gb could really be a plus (at this moment, i have to work on my laptop with 512mb, which means crappy screen AND low RAM, i can't describe how horrible it is :D)
Lashiec> yeah, maybe i'll go for bigger hdd space, you're right. And i like steeladept's idea of buying several drives instead of one, i'll think about it.
nudone> yeah, i guess Eizo would be a good choice, unfortunately i really can't afford it right now. Being an illustrator means that i don't earn a lot and that i could use an expensive monitor at the same time, how ironic :D
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Re monitor:
I was asking in a german "flatscreen" forum (PRADA)
about a monitor that had (preferably very) good colour-whachamacallit/rendition(?) for around the 300€ mark-
Fujitsu Siemens P19-2P
was recommended -
they dont seem to have it at Newegg though
Only 19" though...
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ak_
Eizo S1911
was also recommended by one individual, but I've seen some not so positive reviews -
they were saying one half of screen (top or lower?) lighter than other..
I believe - from memory now -
the Eizo S1910 is almost the same monitor but slower (for games)
I think again around the 300€ mark..
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Re monitor:
I was asking in a german "flatscreen" forum (PRADA)
-tomos
PRAD ProAdviser (http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/index2.html) is an excellent resource - Reviews, Comparisons, Advise...
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Actually, I would stay with the first one. SLI is only a extra feature that pretty much every motherboard these days bring along, and it also adds some extra features in the mix that you could actually find useful (passive chipset cooling, e-SATA ports...). With that processor it's better to use something at a good level, than that other option. It's only a few bucks more.
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About SLI : well, hum, i didn't even know what it was before you told me about it :) My choice of components is based on what i've read on multiple websites. Soooo yeah, maybe i don't need a SLI motherboard. Which one then ? What about this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131040) ? Seems to be the same as my original choice without the SLI feature. What do you think ? If you think it's not a good choice, can you please suggest something else ? (considering that price is REALLY important).
-ak_
Actually no, that motherboard is not what I meant. The companion non-SLI motherboard is this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131022). Also, for $10US cheaper, there is this alternative (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131014). What you loose in the cheaper one is a slightly less capable north bridge (don't know what that means without more research though), 2 SATA connectors, a serial connector (not essential any more), and a few other odds and ends. The cheaper one has a few more features that make up for the difference though, so it really depends on what your needs are. Both save you $30-40US off the original board you told us about and both have comparable, though not exact, specs.
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Re monitor:
I was asking in a german "flatscreen" forum (PRADA)
-tomos
PRAD ProAdviser (http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/index2.html) is an excellent resource - Reviews, Comparisons, Advise...
-PhilB66
hah, didnt know they had an english version
obviously translated from german -
the marks they give are
Very good, good, and "Satisfying" :)
of course meant to be satisfactory = soso really..
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I'd go with the best motherboard you can afford - SLI is just one feature of the board you first listed. You don't have to use the SLI feature but I can guarantee that the rest of the board is more than the earlier non-SLI versions.
For only slightly more money you could pick up 2 nVidia SLI 7600 256Mb (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130075) cards. That is just one example - if you aren't in to gaming then a pair of 7300 SLI cards (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=nVidia+SLI+7300&x=22&y=25) would be cheaper than the ATI card you specified. You then have two graphics cards which can share the load or run two monitors if you want to splash out on a second monitor in the future.
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Just an asside: If you'd like to go linux in a while probably nvidia would get you into less problems than ATI. (although i also prefer ATI ;) )
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Hm, around here (Denmark) you can get a Core2Duo E6550 for the same price as an AMD64x2 6000+ - I'd definitely go for the c2d model, even if the motherboard will be a bit more expensive... and they don't seem to be much more expensive actually, especially considering you'll be getting an intel chipset (<3 RAID Matrix).
I'm staying away from ATI because of their horrible drivers, and nvidia seems to be decent enough speedwise. And if you compare the DX10 series of cards, well, bye-bye ATI.
Personally, I suggest getting 3 or 4 (if possible) and make them a striped array. This gives a small (though not insignificant) performance boost especially with photoshop, while giving you a better chance at recovery if one goes bad (if two go at the same time you are still screwed though, so never use this in place of a good backup strategy!)
-steeladept
You mean a stripe+mirror combo, not just a 4-drive stripe...
As for RAM... standard 32bit windows will only let an application use ~2GB of memory. If you add a switch to boot.ini, applications that are marked aware will be able to use up to 3GB, but not the last gig. Doesn't mean the memory is wasted though, just that a single application won't be able to use more then 2 (or 3) gigabytes.
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Well, i'm really pulling my hair out with this monitor thing. I've found this one (http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review-hp-lp2065.html) for a good price but the review is one year old so maybe it's obsolete now. If anyone has information about this monitor, please let me know :)
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i'd try and get something that has 1000:1 contrast ratio - the model you've picked out has 800:1
i'd say that's one of the reasons why cheaper monitors look the way they do - just not enough contrast.
i've seen current monitors that are meant to be 3000:1 but when you look at the details they'll say 1000:1 and the higher figures are produced by some kind of trickery. i'll admit i've not seen one of these higher contrast monitors in action so i can't really offer a good opinion - it all seems a bit dubious when the figures are presented something like this 3000:1 (1000:1).
anyway, LCDs are pretty terrible at black as they just allow too much backlight to come through - but then it isn't too noticeable a lot of the time because of all the bright elements on screen - but it's almost unbearable when playing darkly lit games, i.e. doom3, fear, etc... probably not an issue for you.
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Well, i'm really pulling my hair out with this monitor thing. I've found this one (http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review-hp-lp2065.html) for a good price but the review is one year old so maybe it's obsolete now. If anyone has information about this monitor, please let me know :)
-ak_
a year old review is okay I reckon - unless you're going to pay loads of dosh you're prob not going to get the absolute current best..
the conclusion of review
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review-hp-lp2065-part13.html#Conclusion
doessound quite very good to me - apart from the direct sunlight warning -
depends where you'll be using it...
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Thanks Tomo for pointing out the sunlight warning, my pc is gonna be near a window so it's a problem. Anyway, i changed my mind about this monitor thing. Nudone is right, i need to get a screen with a good contrast ratio. So, considering the little money i have, i decided to chose image quality over size, and i think i'll go for a Samsung 971P. It's a 19" and it's quite expensive considering its size, but, according to reviews i read, it displays excellent colors and has a 1500:1 contrast ratio.
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looks like a good choice from the reviews :up:
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Just wanted to let you know that i'm currently posting from my new pc :-* I'd like to thank you for taking some time to give me precious advices.
So finally i chose : Asus M2N SLI Deluxe + AMD Dual core X2 6000+ + 4gb RAM + Seagate Barracuda 160go + GeForce 7600 + Asus Silent Knight (damn this thing is huge).
I'm happy with it, i didn't really test it yet, but i can feel the difference from my laptop during casual use. FARR scans my music collection in a blink of an eye :-*
I didn't buy the screen yet because i'm still hesitating. I just saw that IIyama is about to sell a 24" screen (IIYama B2403WS) with 2000:1 contrast ratio for about 500€, which is not very expensive, especially compared to Samsung Syncmaster 971P. My hesitation comes from the fact that it uses a TN film and i'm not sure weither it makes a big difference or not (reviews says this screen offers excellent image and color display).
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Well, I'm disappointed that you went for the nVidia card (and a 7600 as well :(), but I presume you did it so save some bucks. I suppose you're running Vista, aren't you? ;). More bashing for you ;D, what case and supply are you using? Sorry to be so insistent, but I'm like that with computer hardware.
Otherwise, very good components there. The mainboard (personal experience) and the CPU are excellent, so is the cooler (one of the best choices in the market).
The screen... well, I suppose it's a good option. IIyama was always considered as a quality hardware company, and if the reviews say it's a good option, you can't go wrong. I suppose nudone would know better than me, as I'm happy with your average 250€ TFT panel.
EDIT: Typos and better expression
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the iiyama monitor sounds good - the price sounds crazy. i see that you can disable the 2000:1 contrast to provide greater colour accuracy (yet another example of this weird above 1000:1 ratios where things don't quite add up, i.e. bigger numbers equal less accuracy - bizarre).
for the prices i've seen i'm tempted to buy one just for the sakes of getting a bargain. i wouldn't even need to take it out of the box to feel satisfied. the eizo model i've got is the 24" 1920x1200 res thing and i can imagine that this iiyama will be identical (same samsung screen i bet) but for a third of what i payed.
what an insane bargain, and i'm trying to justify why i should buy one - two 24" screens would surely be an over indulgence. hmm, maybe. :-\
oh, and congratulations on the birth of your new machine :D
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Congrats - looks like a good line up now.
nVidia 7600 is fine (IMHO) if you aren't a big gamer.
Why did you go for a 160Gb drive? It seems to me that a lot of the larger drives are much better value these days. You may not need the space today but the way things go things fill up rapidly! The way MS is going the next version of Windows will probably need 80Gb just to install!
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Lashiec> well, i'm not a big gamer at all, so i don't need a great graphic card right now. If i ever want to go for something better, i guess i'll get another SLI card (that explains why i went for a nVidia card). NO i'm not running Vista, i don't want to, no right now. I'm fine with XP and if one day i really wanna do something that can only be done in Vista, maybe i'll switch. I'm using a "Suza Advance JUPITER 8005" case (maybe it'll ring a bell, i chose it because it was cheap and seemed nice :D) with a 480W power supply (i've been told it could be insufficient, we'll see...).
nudone> oh well, if you already own a 24" monitor, you'll be able to answer this : is it ok to use it on a normal distance, or do you have it to place it far away from you so it won't hurt your eyes ? I don't have much space so the question is important :) And what do you say about TN film, do you think it's ok or is it reeaaaally important to get a PVA one ?
carol> well, 160gb seems really ok to me, if i ever need more space i'll get another disk :D
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Well, SLI is a lost case if you ask me, but it's your opinion, I won't mess with it :Thmbsup:
I was asking for Vista because you know 4 GB support is a bit tricky under XP. I think you could handle Photoshop with just 2 GB, well, you SHOULD handle Photoshop, or more precisely, the software should accommodate to that, it's not Crysis we're talking about, damn Adobe...
And that case has back and front fans? As long as it has one of those, no problem. That PSU should be more than enough, mine is a 430W model, and my rig is a bit beefier, except for the CPU, as yours take a bit more juice than mine. Of course, if it's a cheap one... well... mouser experiences could tell you the possible outcome :D
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my face is about 24 to 30 inches away from the screen depending on how i'm sitting. i don't think i'd be happy to move it further away and i could probably work with it being a bit nearer - but nearer would probably feel uncomfortable. all i know for sure is that my eye strain is nothing like it was before i had this monitor.
the only comment i can really make about TN film is that i would hope that it has progressed and so wouldn't be a problem. but i suppose that explains the price of the monitor.
i think viewing angles are pretty irrelevant as you'll be sat directly in front of the screen. colour reproduction, hmm, well, it's not going to be perfect no matter what so maybe that's not too big a deal either.
the eizo i'm i'm looking at is pva so that obviously means that the iiyama screen is a different samsung model - not the original bargain i was hoping for then.
if you can, i recommend trying to see the monitor up and working before you buy it. maybe you can find it in a big computer shop and do a comparison with the other screens on display. i think it will be obvious whether it looks good or not - flesh tones are usually a good indication of how bad the monitor is as you will instinctively know what looks right or not - well, that's what i tend to find anyway.
could you buy from somewhere that you could send it back if you weren't happy with it? Carol usually reminds us of the regulations - i can never remember. i would guess that France offers better consumer regulations than the UK.
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The UK enforces Distance Selling Rules which allow someone to send any product back for a refund with a few days if not satisfied (I think it is within either 8 or 10 days of receipt). The only exceptions are perishable goods (like food), unsealed CDs and DVDs which can be copied (or watched like a loan film) and a few other exceptions. You have to give notice that you intend to return the item and pay the return postage (unless it is faulty in which case the supplier has to pay).
See http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/buying-selling/distance-selling/index.html for government info. I think similar rules apply throughout the EU but you need to check individual countries for variations.
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I'm puzzled you went with and AMD64x2 instead of core2duo, since money doesn't seem to have been your biggest concern; around here, I could have gotten a E6550 for the same price as the 6000+. But oh well, it's going to be a decent enough machine anyway.
GeForce 7600 is a pretty decent card, relatively fast but not one of the monster power consumers. I'm fond of my fanless one, and I certainly like the NV drivers a lot more than the buggy stuff from ATI :)
If i ever want to go for something better, i guess i'll get another SLI card (that explains why i went for a nVidia card).
-ak_
You do need the second card to be exactly the same as the first card, though, don't you? Might be difficult finding that once you get to the point where you need the extra performance. Of course you can always get a new (or two new ;)) cards then, but then it defeats the "economic" aspect of SLI.
I do run a SLI motherboard myself, but that's only because it was the only fanless motherboard available at the time that was also stable.
4gb shouldn't a problem under XP, not under the 32bit version either, you just won't be able to have a single app use all the memory.