DonationCoder.com Forum
Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: jgpaiva on March 19, 2006, 06:54 PM
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After having seen this matter being discussed lots of times in the IRC channel, i decided to make a poll about it.
Unprotected Wireless Lans is a common "problem" among less-informed people, and it can represent a real issue if you have a low bandwidth limit. (I call it a "problem" because it can be really good for some people - the ones that don't actually own the router :P)
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;D Yeah, I see both sides. On the one hand, I don't want leeches sucking up my bandwidth, so my router is secure.
On the other hand, when my sister-in-law visits, she can connect to the neighbors WLAN and I don't have to set her up on my router. I would have done so, but the first time she visited I wasn't home so she found a network and just started using it. :-[
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Me too, I am a Wireless Router owner myself, and mine is protected. But I live with two compulsive-downloaders, who would blow my bandwidth limits out of scale if they used our network. So, they use a unprotected one. But the owner doesn't seem to care, since he doesn't protect it... ;D
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Before I had my own broadband connection here, I found I could hop onto my neighbors from most points in my house with a relatively good signal. Bound by some old-school "good neighbor" syndrome, I brought it up and was told to feel free to use it . . . yay :)
When I had an apartment in Norfolk, VA, I had access to 3, sometimes 4, unsecure lans.
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i don't have wi-fi cards on my pc but i had to help out some friends of mine who have them...
here's one article that i always refer them to --> Why is Wireless Security Important? (http://www.informit.com/guides/printerfriendly.asp?g=security&seqNum=162&rl=1)
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between 6 and 7.
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I have just secured by wirless modem and router with a 64 bit encryption. Is this enough what is the difference between this and 128 bit? Next the article that was recommended that you read a couple of posts back says to close 3rd party programmes and disable TCP/IP. How do you do this?
I have 3 LAN networks I could access. Who they belong to I do not know one is a server.
This is all new to me.
Helen
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hey this gave me a great idea for a perfect donationcoder.com coding snack!
what about a program designed to find unprotected wireless lans, and figures out a way to politely inform the admin that their network is unprotected, and sends them some links to info on how to protected it *IF* they want to, or else info about how to safely keep it unprotected in order to share open access if they want to keep it open.
what do you think? seems like a really nice idea to me. we could call it Helpfull Snooper or something like that.
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Trouble is just doing that is illegal in some countries (the UK for one).
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I dunno how many unprotected WLANs are around, since my laptop-enabled friend didn't have any "toolz" when he visited me. But we found about 15 active WLANs, 3-4 of them that were permanently online and with good signal strength...
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The answer is seven for me. It's great. Whenever my router's is down for whatever reason, I have 7 alternatives to choose from :D
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The answer is seven for me. It's great. Whenever my router's is down for whatever reason, I have 7 alternatives to choose from :D-moerl
I must say that goes way beyond what could of. 7 Unprotected wlans in the same place is too much.
And how many protected ones?
If I was my mother, I'd be saying "oh.. so much radio activity.. that's bad for you, it causes cancer, bla bla bla" and you'd be hearing about 30 minutes of nagging, telling you to move out :tellme:
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If it weren't for unprotected wireless lans, half the people I know wouldn't have an internet connection. And most of those are leeching files off of various P2P networks.
One was even able to access the router and forward ports to be able to host a room on one.
Not for nothing, but with the recent FBI bust of a kiddy porn ring with a room hosted on a P2P, I would be securing my network if I had one, because if I didn't I could be blamed for the sick illegal activities of whoever was abusing my bandwidth.
And at the very least, if I wasn't worried about being blamed for it or even charged as an accessory, I sure wouldn't want to be helping them hurt children and spread their garbage to other sick & depraved friends of theirs.
You never know what someone else is doing when you don't take your security seriously.
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You never know what someone else is doing when you don't take your security seriously.-app103
Very,very good point.
I think this thread might be a good way to warn DC users to be careful with the way they secure their networks, I had already been warned about the possibility of my bandwidth being abbused, but this is a whole other risk.
You never know who lives next to you, he might even be hacking into the pentagon through your WLan ;)
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The answer is seven for me. It's great. Whenever my router's is down for whatever reason, I have 7 alternatives to choose from :D-moerl
I must say that goes way beyond what could of. 7 Unprotected wlans in the same place is too much.
And how many protected ones?
If I was my mother, I'd be saying "oh.. so much radio activity.. that's bad for you, it causes cancer, bla bla bla" and you'd be hearing about 30 minutes of nagging, telling you to move out :tellme:
-jgpaiva
It's actually 8 unprotected ones, 14 protected ones, with one among the unprotected ones using the default out-of-the-box SSID. So that makes 14 people with wireless AP's around me that have some clue of what they're doing, 8 noobs, (how likely is it that you know what you're doing and are sharing your bandwidth with everybody around you because you want to??), and one ultimate king of the noobs, who just took the router out of the box and plugged in the two cables and didn't worry about it ever since, having left even his SSID at default. For some odd reason Netstumbler does not tell me which encryption is used... WPA or WEP... all protected wireless AP's show up as being protected with WEP, even though most of them probably use WPA, including myself. If I knew that, I could include another stratus of a noob vs. the ones with some flavor of a clue rating... while I've never done such a thing before, I have read that it is extremely easy to break through WEP encryption. If you look around at AstaLaVista.com, you will probably find a tool to do just that for you in less than 5 minutes. So basically you can count the WEP protected AP's together with the unprotected AP's. It's the same thing in regards to outside accessibility with some knowledge.
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If you look through astalavista, you'll get infected by a zombie ddos network within a few minutes :) - but yes, WEP is supposedly breakable within five minutes.
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Troible is not all devices support WPA ... I have a linksys network (with a change of SSID!!) and have to use WEP as I need a signal booster in the system and couldn't find one that supports WPA. Linksys are not interested in producing firmware updates - I had enough problems finding one that would work with my ADSL Router.
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Of course not all devices support WPA. Especially older ones. I was just saying that I find it strange Netstumbler lists ALL protected WLAN's as WEP-protected, when I know exactly that most of them are WPA protected, that's all.
Linksys does provide firmware updates here and then.. they just udpated the firmware for part of their product range last week or so. Linksysinfo.org is a great site for info on all things Linksys. I currently am running custom 3rd party firmware on my Linksys WRT54GS.
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My friend and I don't have any wireless equipment in our apartment. When we moved in we discussed how we were going to set up our LAN. Since he was using copper-bound ethernet at work and just had rolled a major upgrade of that network's capacity, we went for good ole cable as well. So far is has paid off very well: our network is fast, reliable and superquick to extend when friends come over with their laptops.
Yes, sometimes it were nice to have wireless access, if only for making it easier to "relocate" our computers. However we don't regard this is as a tradeoff since we value security much higher than comfort and we both know so much more about ethernet than about wireless.
To make a boring story short: unless wireless networks can easily be secured (and I mean secured, not just pretended protection) I will not consider it when setting up networks.
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My friend and I don't have any wireless equipment in our apartment. When we moved in we discussed how we were going to set up our LAN. Since he was using copper-bound ethernet at work and just had rolled a major upgrade of that network's capacity, we went for good ole cable as well. So far is has paid off very well: our network is fast, reliable and superquick to extend when friends come over with their laptops.
Yes, sometimes it were nice to have wireless access, if only for making it easier to "relocate" our computers. However we don't regard this is as a tradeoff since we value security much higher than comfort and we both know so much more about ethernet than about wireless.
To make a boring story short: unless wireless networks can easily be secured (and I mean secured, not just pretended protection) I will not consider it when setting up networks.
-housetier
They can easily be secured ;)
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so you say, so I heard. But I also heard Windows was a good operating system...
I think in a few years it will be easier to set up wireless networks, even on the spot; and also to do so securely. The time is not now, however.
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So you say, so you think, but there really is no reason to be so scared of wireless networks. Apparently, the AEP encryption method has never been cracked before, ever, and that's what most people who have a clue about WLAN's today use to secure their wireless networks (WPA with AEP/TKIP). I also happen to think that Windows is a good operating system. Now, that isn't to say that it is flawless. Obviously, it's far from flawless and has its problems, just like any other OS. Ok, perhaps Windows has a few more problems than other OSes out there... ;), but if you know what you're doing, once more, and you're used to Windows, it is very stable and will work reliably for a long time. At least that has been my experience over the years.
Today and perhaps for years already, it has been easy to set up wireless networks, on the spot, and securely. It may be a matter of opinion, and I invite anyone with an opinion on this to step in and voice it because I am curious about what others think about this issue.
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I am all for wirelass lans!
No doubts about it.
Since i got my wireless router here at home, i can't use cables anymore.
Less speed? Yes, it's slower, but it fits my needs, i don't download torrents and such, but for the other things (gaming, surfing and downloading from ftp/http), it's very stable and very confortable.
I hate having cables all around, i'm even thinking of getting myself a wireless keyboard.
I don't like to walk into a room and have to either step on a bunch of cables spread through the floor, or have to be jumping around to to step on them.
My friends here at home use cable, because they are constantly downloading stuff from torrents, and feel that ethernet is better for them. I hate that idea.
At my parents' , i have to use ethernet, and i constantly miss my wireless router.
I mean, not having to have cables all around, being able to take the laptop anywhere in the house (with wireless, i can wake up in my bedroom and have internet, without needing some 30-meter-long cable spread through my corridor.
About the security issues, i'm not that afraid. I can't use wpa :( because my router doesn't support it, but i have wep, and i feel quite secure since there's only one more wireless network on my area.
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The windows kernel is superior to the linux kernel, period. What drags windows down is the usermode software, the win32 API, and third-party driver developers that produce unstable crap. But even with all windows' flaws, it's still superior to the majority of people, simply because you don't need to mess around just to get everyday jobs done. </anti-gpl fascist rant>
As long as you get a decent access point, setting up wireless shouldn't really be much of a hassle (unless there's other very strong-signal AP's in the neighbourhood). Most stuff that's worth anything today comes with at least WPA-PSK, which seems pretty decent. Just stay away from WEP and friends.
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[...] I can't use wpa :( because my router doesn't support it, but i have wep, and i feel quite secure since there's only one more wireless network on my area.
-jgpaiva
WEP passwords can be bruteforced in a reasonable amount of time... but you don't even have to do that to gain access, afaik... Something about packet injection that I haven't bothered to look into.
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WEP passwords can be bruteforced in a reasonable amount of time... but you don't even have to do that to gain access, afaik... Something about packet injection that I haven't bothered to look into.
-f0dder
Yes, f0dder, that's one of the main reasons i made this thread, to have an idea of the real dangers of having such network.
But the thing is: you have to do some digging to crack a wep network (i've made some without success). Another thing is that my router is quite bad, it doesn't even cover my house deccently, which means that it doesn't cover anything more than my neighbours' appartments. And i know every of my neighbours, and they're all old people that i don't think even have a computer at home ;)
So, i feel quite secure, i just keep the password on the router for safe-keeping.
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I quite liked this:
(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmntf/2006/tmntf060424.gif)
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I quite liked this:
(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmntf/2006/tmntf060424.gif)
-Carol Haynes
;D ;D ;D
Nice one, Carol :)
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have a clue about WLAN's today use to secure their wireless networks (WPA with AEP/TKIP).
I read somewhere about someone who said WPA/TKIP is insecure and can be broken (not brute force)... After a long read: TKIP is insecure with short passwords only. :-\
I'm using WPA/AES anyway, but I took the recommendation to use really strong passwords generated by http://www.grc.com/passwords
I've also configured and activated the MAC-Filter; network cards which are allowed. I know it's no problems for real hackers, but good enough for script kiddies.
And every some time I check for firmware updates. This shouldn't be necessary, but the admin log-on tells the name of the router (I wish it wouldn't do so). Any possible hacker sees the router I use, researches possible exploits and he's in...
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Trust In Steve - heh :-\
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No, No.. it wasn't Steve who wrote the thing about TKIP. It was an article I found at digg.com some months ago.
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Well, I mean his passwords page. He doesn't document the algorithm(s) he use, nor how he gathers entropy... :down:
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I see. In the text he's writing something about server noise, but I guess he won't tell all his "secrets". ;)
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He says "deterministic binary noise" - deterministic means there's no real source of randomness, so nothing fancy probably. The fact that he always uses buzzwords and don't disclose anything makes him untrustworthy to me, especially since it's long proven that security through obscurity never works.
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Жуть какая, нихрена не понимаю, но оч хочу золотой ключик от каморки папы Карло.... :-*. Целую, Ваша на веки . Птичка, которая на проводе.
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Жуть какая, нихрена не понимаю, но оч хочу золотой ключик от каморки папы Карло.... :-*. Целую, Ваша на веки . Птичка, которая на проводе.
-IVOLGA
Английский язык, пожалуйста?
(Used an online dictionary (http://www.rustran.com/promt.php4?status=translate&direction=er&source=English%2C+please%3F))
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According to Babelfish that translates to:
Horror what, nikhrena I do not understand, but och I want gold small key from the closet of dad of Porta..... Tsela, Vash to the eyelids. Bird, which on the wire.
English, if you please?
Sorry - none the wiser ... so much for automated translations!!!
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Жуть какая, нихрена не понимаю, но оч хочу золотой ключик от каморки папы Карло.... :-*. Целую, Ваша на веки . Птичка, которая на проводе.
-IVOLGA
which translates to...
"Horror what, нихрена I do not understand, but оч I want gold ключик from a closet of daddy Karlo..... The whole, yours on веки. A birdy, which on a wire. "
I used the same translator (http://www.rustran.com/promt.php4?status=translate&direction=re&source=%C6%F3%F2%FC+%EA%E0%EA%E0%FF%2C+%ED%E8%F5%F0%E5%ED%E0+%ED%E5+%EF%EE%ED%E8%EC%E0%FE%2C+%ED%EE+%EE%F7+%F5%EE%F7%F3+%E7%EE%EB%EE%F2%EE%E9+%EA%EB%FE%F7%E8%EA+%EE%F2+%EA%E0%EC%EE%F0%EA%E8+%EF%E0%EF%FB+%CA%E0%F0%EB%EE....++.+%D6%E5%EB%F3%FE%2C+%C2%E0%F8%E0+%ED%E0+%E2%E5%EA%E8+.+%CF%F2%E8%F7%EA%E0%2C+%EA%EE%F2%EE%F0%E0%FF+%ED%E0+%EF%F0%EE%E2%EE%E4%E5.%0D%0A)
I think that means they are in love with Cody? A marriage proposal, maybe? :D
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heheheheh
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I think that means they are in love with Cody? A marriage proposal, maybe? :D
-app103
Would he be answering to my signature?
(http://jgpaiva.dcmembers.com/Screenshot - 06_04_24 , 23_11_54.jpg)
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I find it strange Netstumbler lists ALL protected WLAN's as WEP-protected
-moerl
Have you tried Boingo (http://www.boingo.com/)? It's really a tool for finding WiFi hotspots, but apparently contains a signal strength meter. It's free, but I think the install tries to sign you up to their network. I haven't tried either program, but was just wondering.
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I thought he was giving an example of a secure password ;)
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none, mine is save, and i disabled my cousin's wifi next door
and i live pretty much in the country side ;)
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:huh:Don't understand why anyone with wireless would not secure it. dumb...... dumb.....
Thank gawd mine is secured.
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:huh:Don't understand why anyone with wireless would not secure it. dumb...... dumb.....
Thank gawd mine is secured.
-dancin39
Because wireless today is so easy to setup that any Joe User can do it... but the accesspoints usually come without preconfigured security, because that would make them harder to set up. And well, once connected and working, why would Joe User need to read further in the manual?
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I have heard rumors of freaky distances connecting to wireless lans... like 3-5 miles connecting to a University hub. Anybody heard of that?
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I can usually see 2 or 3 networks that have no protection at all. One was my neighbor, who I helped encrypy.
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I have several machines/peripherals tied together in a partly wired and mostly wireless setup. Except for a couple of times, Bite-sized trouble and I live just far enough away from other houses in a residential area that we've never run into the issue. Our stuff's very secure, so it's not a problem for us.
I've never gone looking for any wlans with the laptop; just not my style.
OEF ;D
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:huh:Don't understand why anyone with wireless would not secure it. dumb...... dumb.....
Thank gawd mine is secured.
-dancin39
Because some of us actually know what we're doing, and want to share with people who aren't able to afford internet, or just want to google something on their pocketpc as they're walking by.
I have heard rumors of freaky distances connecting to wireless lans... like 3-5 miles connecting to a University hub. Anybody heard of that?
-Edvard
I think the record, unpowered, is something insane like 70 miles. Realistically, 5 miles or less should work without a hitch provided you have good line of sight. I set up streaming video for a surveillance station, streaming 16 video cameras 24/7, all the way accross a small city. The station was on a hill, and the buildings they were watching had roofs visible from the hill. We used some small antennas to insure a stable connection, but it was pretty stable with 2 off-the-shelf access points.
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:huh:Don't understand why anyone with wireless would not secure it. dumb...... dumb.....
Thank gawd mine is secured.
-dancin39
Because some of us actually know what we're doing, and want to share with people who aren't able to afford internet, or just want to google something on their pocketpc as they're walking by.
-gsull
That's public-spirited, but dangerous. I'm in the UK, which is currently paranoid about paedophiles. Such people could download kiddie porn through your unsecured connection - and the police would trace it to you, and it's your life and reputation that would be destroyed. Over here, it's not worth taking the risk of an unsecured connection.
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I drove 1700 miles from PA to OK to visit my folks. Had the laptop plugged into my Minvan's power port (formerly known as a "lighter"). I passed metro areas in PA, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, and Oklahoma. I was able to be online on an unsecured network within 20 miles, sometimes more, of each city. Not to mention hotels out in the middle of nowhere providing me with unsecured wireless. The funny part is, the hotel we stayed at said that it had high speed wireless, but did not. Luckily the other hotels close had wireless ;)
When I reached Oklahoma, at my parent's house, I was able to connect to 4 unsecured wireless networks, and see 3 secured on top of that in thier neighborhood. When my dad saw me walking around the house with my laptop using remote desktop to log in here, he though that was just the niftiest thing since peanut butter, so he went out, bought a toshiba laptop, a Linksys wireless router, and 2 pci network cards for his 2 desktops, and had me set it up. Yes, I secured it.
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the hotel we stayed at said that it had high speed wireless, but did not. Luckily the other hotels close had wireless ;)
-y0himba
Maybe that's the high speed wireless they mentioned. :P
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;D
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German users of WLANs should take measure to protect it as they are now held responsible for any "bad things that happened" if they do not protect their WLAN.
So if your neighbour uses your unprotected WLAN to offer software illegally, YOU can be held responsible as accomplice. Strange but true.
Note this was a court ruling in Germany and does not apply to other countries.
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Nasty! - and not at all fair. Some access points cannot be secured, others only have WEP (which is basically insecure), and many people don't have the tech skills required to secure the access point... bad court, bad!