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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: zridling on May 28, 2006, 11:06 PM

Title: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on May 28, 2006, 11:06 PM

I think because many feel so much of it is overpriced leading us to say things like "You want €49 for that!" I argue more of the case here (http://www.thegsblog.com/?p=94).

        (http://www.thegsblog.com/i/hacker.gif)

Let us know your thoughts.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on May 28, 2006, 11:26 PM

First, I think the title of this may be a bit misleading. "Why is software cracked? is a different question from "Why is software pirated?, the former implying more to do with the actual reason for defeating copy protection in the first place and hence having more to do with the motivations of those doing the cracking, rather than the "end user". For the crackers I think the motivation is much more about challenge, victory, feeling clever, and notoriety. I doubt most crackers use many of the apps they crack. So that seems fairly simple and has little to do with the market, except that higher priced and more desirable software is more desirable to crack.

The end user side of things seems a bit more complicated. You could say it is due simply to price; surely not many people pirate something they don't need or want, and if you need/want something then it has *some* value. Yet I have experienced first-hand the drive to collect, irrespective of the value of the software itself to my own needs. I have done this with freeware! The allure of collecting can't be dismissed. Still, I think it is a small part of the pirating population who are collectors, comparatively speaking. Many people don't even know they're "pirates" or that what they're doing is really wrong. It's not necessarily willful ignorance, they just don't think about it. I have seen so many people casually asking their neighbor, roommate, school chum, etc. to install Office, Photoshop, etc. on their machine, and they think nothing of it.

Getting back to the point, money definitely plays a key role. I think a fundamental problem of the industry though is that value of a piece of software is not consistent for everyone, yet the price charged is almost invariably the same. If there were a way to reliably measure someone's need and likely use - their price ceiling - then that would help a lot. As it is software developers theoretically charge what the market will bear. Where this gets tricky is developers, publishers, or lobby groups assuming that every pirated copy is a lost sale. This is an assumption in the music industry, film industry, software industry, etc, etc. and it is fundamentally flawed.

You could never lower prices to the point where everyone who pirates a piece of software would buy it, but you could get close. At a certain point you reach the point of diminishing returns. That is theoretically where every publisher should aim their pricing. I do think most publishers aim higher than that however. Imagine if Photoshop was half the cost - if they got twice as many purchasers (and they might), they would make the same amount of money, *and* they would have a larger market share. It's even possible they could make more money by more than doubling their market.

There are a number of theoretical "sweet spots" for pricing, and price barriers that supposedly signal the difference between a casual purchase and a major one that deserves more thought and care. This too is different for everyone, but there are general levels that are fairly agreed upon. I think the $100 barrier is one; there are many others. A smart publisher will price their software just under one of these barriers, if possible. This is usually the reason for something costing $299 instead of $300, of course. Surprisingly, as much as people intellectually see through that trick, they still subconsciously tend to fall victim to it.

In any case I think as a fundamental statement it's easy to agree that the biggest reason people pirate something is monetary. They don't feel the asking price is worth it for their use and need. But it gets more complex because of the things discussed above, and much more. Individual value judgments (to some people almost *nothing* is worth $600), individual financial means, etc, etc.

Interesting question. A pity no one is probably studying it but the BSA (and there "study" is probably a loose term). But I imagine there is a lot of general market research out there that is applicable to this at least.

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: martyjn on May 29, 2006, 02:13 AM

I have used cracks for various software that i posess but the main reason that i use them is to be able to back up software that i own to use a copy rather than the original.I have three kids under six at home with me and they quite often get into my cds and have destroyed moore than a few.The main reason why Software companies have not been successful banning cracks is that owners are legaly entitled to a back up of software in most countries.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 29, 2006, 04:17 AM

Answered on your blog Zaine ...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 29, 2006, 08:07 AM

As for why software is *cracked*... it's a game. Some enjoy the challenge of defeating a difficult protection, some enjoy the "statistics" they can make by mass-cracking a bunch of small apps from the same company using basically the same protection. And then there's of course the competition between the various cracking groups. If you have a look at what is cracked in the so-called "0-day" scene (http://www.nfodb.com/section_1_0-day_nfo.html) you'll see a lot of really useless crap there, cracked only "because they could".

The oooh-so-romantic "fame and glory" is only one side of the story, though. Groups also release cracks to gain and maintain access to the so-called "topsites". The more apps and more interesting stuff you crack (games and applications obviously ranking higher than shareware applications), the better topsites you gain access to. Some 6 years ago, a ftp with 1TB storage on a full-duplex 100mbit connection was considered decent, which says something about the insane amount of storage and bandwidth used today, just for piracy.

http://www.welcometothescene.com has a (somewhat comic and somewhat frowned-upon by the oh-so-elite "real scene members") bunch of episodes with some fictional scene people, and while it's a bit comical, serves as a pretty good introduction to what it's all about.

(No, I'm not associated with all that stuff, I just happen to know people).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: nudone on May 29, 2006, 09:13 AM

thanks for that, f0dder, looks like a good introduction - downloading the torrents now.

i'm not sure what i think about cracking and copy protection and the price of software. it all seems a bit messed up to me.

eg. steinberg went to great lengths to create an uncrackable version of cubase sx - using a usb dongle - did it stop the program being cracked? no, it just made it more of a challenge - and a few months after release cubase was cracked.

did steinberg sell more copies of cubase during the period that no one had cracked it - i'm guessing it probably made little difference.

so, the people that make software know their product will be cracked - the crackers know they can crack it - the people that aren't going to pay for software know they can can get a cracked version.

all i see from this is a crazy situation is that the valued customer ends up paying for a program that has to have serial numbers or crazy dongles to make the software work - all a bit of a nuisance as it doesn't stop cracking or pirating.

would dropping the price of 'expensive' software make pirating/cracking less appealing? seems the software companies think not.

is there any anology to the film industry - remember when prerecorded movie video tapes cost about £100 so everyone used to rent and copy them as it would be insane to pay that price?

then they dropped the price to about £10 to buy a prerecorded video tape - and then, of course, dvds too when they arrived. now, they must sell millions.

maybe this kind of business model can't work for the software industry as no one wants to collect and display all their paid for software titles on their bookshelves like they do with dvds. if only they could make buying and owning software sexy then the problem would be solved.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 29, 2006, 09:32 AM

Well, to be fair, applications do need a bit of protection, otherwise I'm afraid (casual) piracy would explode.  I draw the line when the protection becomes a major problem for the end-user (insanely long serials, slow dongles, phone-home activation etc.)

Btw. afaik it took more than "a few months" before cubase was cracked, it seems like they (or rather, the protection company) came up with some really fancy protection. Not to mention that various cracked releases were pretty unstable. Pretty well done :) - I'm not a cubase user myself though, so I don't know whether the protection slowed down stuff majorly, I guess I could ask one of my musician friends.

so, the people that make software know their product will be cracked - the crackers know they can crack it - the people that aren't going to pay for software know they can can get a cracked version.

But sometimes having to wait too long might encourage them to buy? Dunno.

Consider this... a program that has no protection at all. Admin has a license for 10 apps, but 12-15 computers to install to. It's a bit tempting to forget about the licensing issue. If there's some protection, even if it's easily broken, the admin would need to knowingly download+run a keygen/crack/whatever. I think there's a slight moral difference between the two.

would dropping the price of 'expensive' software make pirating/cracking less appealing? seems the software companies think not.

Good question. The hardcore pirates will pirate even if prices were dropped substantially, probably even if photoshop cost $10. Other pirates are more like collectors, they don't even install the stuff they download - those obviously wouldn't pay either, and shouldn't be included in the statistics.

Pricing is pretty complicated stuff, IMHO. Who's your target segment? What kind of cash do they have? How much do you spend on development? If you lower price by X, will the Y amount of new customers get you the same income? et cetera.

Then the piracy issue. A company might see that it's product is pirated, and thing "omfg we need protection". But really, even if "super expensive CAD program" or "very obscure and expensive medical imaging application" are released on the warez scene, how many people are going to use those applications? Does it mean an actual loss? I think the BSA and friends are way off when they estimate losses due to piracy...

I wonder how big an issue it really is. The people who whine most about piracy are the companies that make billions a year... would be interesting to hear what low-profile companies and shareware authors have to say.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: nudone on May 29, 2006, 10:07 AM

yes, you are right about cubase taking more than a few months to crack - i had forgotten.

we also have to include that the software companies know full well that their product is cracked and available to download and they choose not to put extra protection into the next release of the software. microsoft, after all, hasn't shut down all the illegal copies of windows xp - you can simply opt out of it nagging you to buy a valid copy with the new genuine advantage thingy that now pops up.

so it seems there's a very fine balancing act going on and there doesn't appear to be any science about setting the price for software. set it high and get the money from the legit users that can afford it but accept that there will be thousands of cracked versions floating around or set the price low and hope that almost everyone user will pay up.

maybe it's only competition with other software companies that make a similar product that can change the prices. i can't remember the reason now but there were some massive (like thousands of dollars) price drops with maya and 3d max a while ago when they were competing on price (i might have it mixed up with who was involved but it was 3d design software anyway).

the most appealing pricing structure to me would be - if you use the software within a business/commercial/whatever environment or for earning money yourself then it's only fair to pay up for the full (expensive) cost of the software. a domestic 'home' version ought to be available at a reduced price.

i'm not really contributing to this thread with the stuff i'm saying so i'll try and offer something of worth...

look at the DonationCoder pricing model.

maybe if the companies that produce expensive software offered a donation type payment scheme then maybe the people that use cracked/pirated software would feel a little more generous and send some money their way. the commercial sector could still pay the licensing fees or higher prices and then everyone else could choose to pay what they thought the software was worth.

would it work, is that how naive i am? isn't this all a bit more to do with how people respond to the way they are treated? i'm about to go off on a tangent and start saying things like 'the world is full of thieving scumbags that only need to be shown they can be trusted and everyone will live happily ever after' - so, i'll shut up.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: app103 on May 29, 2006, 10:26 AM

But really, even if "super expensive CAD program" or "very obscure and expensive medical imaging application" are released on the warez scene, how many people are going to use those applications? Does it mean an actual loss? I think the BSA and friends are way off when they estimate losses due to piracy...

-f0dder (May 29, 2006, 09:32 AM)

The makers of Autocad believed, at one time, that piracy = profit!

Their product is too expensive for the typical home user and is targeted at businesses. The home user that pirates it does so to learn how to use it, most of the time. People that wouldn't ever pay for it, and therefore never learn how to use it, become people that know how ...and eventually become employees of companies that pay for Autocad software.  The more people that know how to use it, the more companies have the incentive to keep buying the product.

They used to factor this into the whole equation and not even mind piracy at one time...it resulted in increased profits for them and was good for the economy because it lead to lower unemployment.

But then businesses started doing it too and that cut into their profits, so now their attitudes have changed about piracy.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 29, 2006, 10:31 AM

we also have to include that the software companies know full well that their product is cracked and available to download and they choose not to put extra protection into the next release of the software.

With some protections, though, a good deal of work is needed to remove it, and can't be 100% automated... so a new release by itself is sortof "extra protection" :)

microsoft, after all, hasn't shut down all the illegal copies of windows xp - you can simply opt out of it nagging you to buy a valid copy with the new genuine advantage thingy that now pops up.

Hrm, afaik you won't be able to use the web-based windows update though, nor download the "genuine windows required" stuff from their site. Dunno if the various activation cracks solve that, I've got a valid key :)

the most appealing pricing structure to me would be - if you use the software within a business/commercial/whatever environment or for earning money yourself then it's only fair to pay up for the full (expensive) cost of the software. a domestic 'home' version ought to be available at a reduced price.

That would certainly be nice - get the real money from those who have it, but allow mortal people to have legit copies as well (has some marketing value anyway).

Btw, my musician friend says that the CuBase protection is mostly around the "logic code" (inserting notes, moving stuff around, etc.) so you don't notice it most of the time. But once you have audio stuff taking up 90% CPU power, the logic-protection can feel a bit sluggish :)

I really don't know if the donation model would work for larger-scale software. Hell, I don't even know if reduced pricing for the home sector would work. If an admin sees a product drop from $5.000 to $100, wouldn't he be suspicious that something's wrong with the software?

app103, you probably have a point there. I don't think it's a conincidence that Microsoft have waited so long with implementing real protection in their OS'es (9x could be bypassed easily, 2000 it was a simple as changing a line in a .inf file before installing, and your key wasn't even stored after install afaik).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: jgpaiva on May 29, 2006, 11:41 AM

I think app made a good point, autocad really took advantage of the piracy issue. My father is a civil engeneer, and he described me what happened at the time. The truth is that there were superior products to autocad, but everyone started using autocad because everyone had the pirated version.

I think that this issue is not easy to address. I think there's no wonderful, perfect solution for this problem.
Stilll, it's always around the pricing of the product.
I'm more into games, so, i'll give that example.
I've played games for a few years now, and never bought one single original game. Why? Because i usually am broke ;)

But, about 3 years ago, i started playing counter-strike, using a friend's key, and i decided to buy a key for myself, so that i could play it against him and a bunch of other friends. I bought it because the game is very good, well stuctured, well mantained, and specially because it was cheap. It costed me 15€ at the time (it's now available for something like 8€, i think). And the truth is that it's (or at least, it was at the time), the most played online game.
Another important issue is that i could and did play it offline, and in bad servers (which take a lot of the good part of the game), through pirated solutions.

Right now, the same company that made counter-strike, valve, created a new game, half-live2. They have adopted another great system again. You can download the game in parts, and pay each part at a time. This means that you can play only the first chapter at a low price, and if you feel like you like the game, buy the second one for a few € more, and so on.
I consider this very fair to the costumer. Because this way, the user is sure that the game's quality will be mantained, and that some creativity will be introduced.

For me, it wouldn't make any sense to buy any game since, the truth is that i never ended one single game. I never found any game that appeals to me enough for me to play it to the end.

I think a good solution for programs like photoshop would be to have a "light" version that would be usable, but not powerful enough to be used by professionals.
But if we see things from another angle, that's what already happens right now. We have the pricey photoshop and the light version, "the gimp".

Hrm, afaik you won't be able to use the web-based windows update though, nor download the "genuine windows required" stuff from their site. Dunno if the various activation cracks solve that, I've got a valid key :)

-f0dder (May 29, 2006, 10:31 AM)

I also have a valid key, but what you mentioned is not quite true, the "genuine windows required" can be solved, it just takes a bit of work ;).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 29, 2006, 11:49 AM

I think a good solution for programs like photoshop would be to have a "light" version that would be usable, but not powerful enough to be used by professionals.

WITHOUT a dumbed-down interface that just screams "you're a bloody retard" at you >_<, just because you can't afford the pro version.

But if we see things from another angle, that's what already happens right now. We have the pricey photoshop and the light version, "the gimp".

Not to mention paint shop pro... oh well, nevermind, bought by corel, dead product.

Hrm, afaik you won't be able to use the web-based windows update though, nor download the "genuine windows required" stuff from their site. Dunno if the various activation cracks solve that, I've got a valid key :)

I also have a valid key, but what you mentioned is not quite true, the "genuine windows required" can be solved, it just takes a bit of work ;)

Hmm, okay - better not talk more about that here. Seems a bit silly though, I think MS does have the ability to lock XP pirates out totally, but decide not to... yet.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: jgpaiva on May 29, 2006, 11:53 AM

WITHOUT a dumbed-down interface that just screams "you're a bloody retard" at you >_<, just because you can't afford the pro version.

-f0dder (May 29, 2006, 11:49 AM)

Yes, that's what i meant with "usable", since although the gimp is a good alternative, i never got along decently with it.

Hmm, okay - better not talk more about that here. Seems a bit silly though, I think MS does have the ability to lock XP pirates out totally, but decide not to... yet.

-f0dder (May 29, 2006, 11:49 AM)

Yes, i see your point. But i didn't know about that locking pirated windows ability... some more information on that?

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 29, 2006, 11:57 AM

Hmm, okay - better not talk more about that here. Seems a bit silly though, I think MS does have the ability to lock XP pirates out totally, but decide not to... yet.

Yes, i see your point. But i didn't know about that locking pirated windows ability... some more information on that?

Well, the can obviously detect whether you have a valid key or not. Move that detection server-side instead of client-side, and you're locked out. Of course they can't stop you from plain using windows XP, but they can stop you from getting updates.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: jgpaiva on May 29, 2006, 12:51 PM

Well, the can obviously detect whether you have a valid key or not. Move that detection server-side instead of client-side, and you're locked out. Of course they can't stop you from plain using windows XP, but they can stop you from getting updates.

-f0dder (May 29, 2006, 11:57 AM)

Oh, right, I see what you meant. I understood another thing.
It'd be quite fair if they blocked the illegal windows out there, but i wonder if it'd make any difference. Since almost everyone has winxp with a new computer.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Deozaan on May 29, 2006, 01:40 PM

There aren't many people I know who haven't pirated software at some point or another, and most I know currently do it.

I think a really good point that was made is that some of the software is so expensive that there are people (like me) who would never pay full price for it, therefore the company would not get a sell from them. And those people who pirate it generally won't be using it professionally.

On the other side, I have actually pirated some software which then turned into a sale. A friend of mine gave me a copy of the game Starcraft and I liked it so much that I went out and bought my own version and the expansion and every PC game that company has made. Also, years ago when I was animating stick figures, Flash suddenly got really popular. I pirated version 4 and learned how to use it. I was 14 or 15 at the time and there was no way I could have afforded it. However, I have owned a legal copy of every Flash version thereafter.

I have done similar things with some music. Back when the original version of Napster was available, I vaguely remembered one song I had heard years before. I couldn't remember the title or the artist, but after some research I found it out and downloaded almost an entire album. I have purchased every single one of their 6 albums since.

I'm not advocating piracy, because I know it's illegal. But there are instances where it is actually good for the business. For penny pinchers or those with a low income like myself, I want to be sure I'll like something before I buy it. Music isn't an issue anymore because of the many online opportunities to preview before you buy and pay less than buying a CD. Most software I try out isn't that expensive and comes with a 30-day trial or some such thing anyway. But for some of the really expensive ones, it would be very nice to be able to test out the UI and see what it can do before plunking down hundreds of dollars.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 29, 2006, 01:54 PM

I think a really good point that was made is that some of the software is so expensive that there are people (like me) who would never pay full price for it, therefore the company would not get a sell from them.

I understand this point of view, but if you apply it to the real/physical world, would you suggest that stealing a bottle of 16-year-old whisky is okay? "I'd never pay full price for it, so it's not like they lose money" :). I think that kind of arguing is a bit silly, but it *does* have a point, too.

And those people who pirate it generally won't be using it professionally.

Unfortunately, there are. I'm not sure how widespread commercial use of pirated products is, but I know that DataRescue has had problems with companies(!) pirating their IDA disassembler.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 29, 2006, 02:21 PM

I think a really good point that was made is that some of the software is so expensive that there are people (like me) who would never pay full price for it, therefore the company would not get a sell from them.

I understand this point of view, but if you apply it to the real/physical world, would you suggest that stealing a bottle of 16-year-old whisky is okay? "I'd never pay full price for it, so it's not like they lose money" :). I think that kind of arguing is a bit silly, but it *does* have a point, too.

-f0dder (May 29, 2006, 01:54 PM)

Not supporting piracy but it is rather different issue.

If you pinch a bottle of whisky they have lost a sale - it is in you hangover.

Downloading a cracked copy of software doesn't cost them a cent because you weren't going to buy it anyway, and you haven't even used their bandwidth to get the download.

In some ways I can see it rather more akin to using an old fashioned library - I want to use an ecyclopedia ... my local library has a copy so I go and use it ... come home and think that is crap (don't buy it and never use it again) or that is great (I'll buy a copy).

It's the same with software - cough up $600 for a piece of software that you aren't sure does what you need? I think not ... I just won't buy it.

I have always though that music companies, film publishers and software companies could solve all their problems really simply. Reduce the price and many more people would be prepared to buy your product.

Let's look at Adobe Photoshop. I have had legit copies of versions 6, 7 and CS2 and think it is simply the best piece of photo software around - and it gets better in each version (not always equal leaps - which is why I didn't upgrade to CS). The big problem is that most home users won't pay the price (I'm luck I get an ed. discount). Now if instead of chaging $450 they charged $45 for the program they would wipe out all opposition in a stroke - they wouldn't have to prodece an extra version (Elements) and so reduce development, marketing, production and support costs and they would be absolutely guaranteed to sell more than 10 times the volume. Make it $30 and download only and they would cut out all production costs and everyone on the planet would have a copy. As it is they introduced product activation (but at least you can deactivate it and move it to another computer unlike MS) which has totally alienated users and is a PITA to anyone who wants to install it on a laptop or a second home computer - and doesn't stop the cracked versions.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on May 29, 2006, 05:51 PM

Autocad is perhaps the third most cracked program, it seems. I asked a simple question and had no idea how deep this rabbit hole went. Inherent in cracking is piracy, but the two need not be married, as fodder, javajones, et al. have pointed out; cracking for many is merely a technical or intellectual challenge. Charging $10 for photoshop would still be too much and besides the point of cracking. (Holy crap, that's got to be the worst paragraph of the year.)

I worked at Barnes and Noble bookstore and we encouraged people to come in, have coffee, and sit and read books. Their philosophy was the reader would eventually buy. Odds on they were correct and most of those "squatters" did buy something, if nothing else than a $5 cup of coffee. But there were always 2-3 people who walked in when the store opened, grabbed ten books or magazines off the shelves, and spent all day reading — all day, every day, 5-6 days a week. It was fascinating to watch.

So one day I asked the manager, "Do you want me to ask that lady to leave? She's been here every day for a month and hasn't bought a damned thing." He said no and that the store policy encouraged more like her. I didn't get it until Carol connected the dots. Thanks.

PS Trivia: The most profitable item in any bookstore are calendars, not books. Believe it.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on May 29, 2006, 05:58 PM

[Carol]: ... instead of chaging $450 they charged $45 for the program they would wipe out all opposition in a stroke - they wouldn't have to prodece an extra version (Elements) and so reduce development, marketing, production and support costs and they would be absolutely guaranteed to sell more than 10 times the volume. Make it $30 and download only and they would cut out all production costs and everyone on the planet would have a copy.

A few years ago Corel offered its previous version of CorelDRAW and Painter software for about half the retail price. Don't know if they ever made any money, but it was a nice idea.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: tsaint on May 29, 2006, 09:30 PM

My perspective on this is coloured by being a teacher. At the school I'm at, we use ms office, photoshop, snagit etc etc - all our software is fairly expensive (it is all licensed and legit). So, all our students use it and hence want it themselves at home, either for compatibility reasons or because it might be "top of the line" software. So what are they to do - they are almost all 18-24, migrant, and poor as in living on their own, maybe with a child and on govt support. A big temptation to resist and I'd say its the school's fault.
My suggestion is for schools to use open source/freeware alternatives to help students avoid the lure of pirated software. If "industry standard" software is needed for a vocational course, so be it, else don't use it and students would then have compatabilty as an incentive to use open source / freeware at home, as well as having their consciousness raised on this issue.
I'm sure this is the same in schools everywhere in principal.

I'm not the network manager and so haven't any responsibility for it at my school - Carol might have a different perspective to me.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: nudone on May 30, 2006, 01:09 AM

My perspective on this is coloured by being a teacher. At the school I'm at, we use ms office, photoshop, snagit etc etc - all our software is fairly expensive (it is all licensed and legit). So, all our students use it and hence want it themselves at home, either for compatibility reasons or because it might be "top of the line" software. So what are they to do - they are almost all 18-24, migrant, and poor as in living on their own, maybe with a child and on govt support. A big temptation to resist and I'd say its the school's fault.
My suggestion is for schools to use open source/freeware alternatives to help students avoid the lure of pirated software. If "industry standard" software is needed for a vocational course, so be it, else don't use it and students would then have compatabilty as an incentive to use open source / freeware at home, as well as having their consciousness raised on this issue.
I'm sure this is the same in schools everywhere in principal.

I'm not the network manager and so haven't any responsibility for it at my school - Carol might have a different perspective to me.

-tsaint (May 29, 2006, 09:30 PM)

i think that is a very good point.

outside of your situation, it's kind of sad that those who go for the pirated software do so without even considering the free open source alternatives - probably because they don't know they exist (and maybe because of the snobbery of not wanting to use something that was genuinely free).

just think of the paradigm shift if every pirated version of photoshop was replaced by the gimp and every pirated version of ms office was replaced by open office - and, what the heck, every dodgy copy of windows xp was replaced by something like ubuntu.

what a beautiful world it would be...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 30, 2006, 04:14 AM

I'm not the network manager and so haven't any responsibility for it at my school - Carol might have a different perspective to me.

-tsaint (May 29, 2006, 09:30 PM)

I've not taught anywhere for a long time that had enough money to buy expensive software so the issue has never arisen. I have to wonder at the sense of an educational establishment paying for MS Office when they can install Open Office for free. OK there are issues but even at academic license prices it must be horrendously expensive.

I can understand your students dilemma thought - both MS Office and Photoshop even at Academic prices are not cheap.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 30, 2006, 04:17 AM

The trouble is there really isn't an open source equivalent of Photoshop. The Gimp can do some of it but it isn't really in the same league at all and not really aimed at photographic processing. I suppose the cheaper solution for students is to get Photoshop Elements which does most of what Photoshop does these days (unless they need to learn about prepress, CMYK etc).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: jgpaiva on May 30, 2006, 04:21 AM

@tsaint:
Actually, in my university, something similar happened.
Until not too much years ago, everything was made in windows / top of the line software. But i am at a big university, which means that buying that software for every computer would be too expensive. What happened was that they used pirated software in some computers.
But the problem was that an inspection came, and they found this pirated software. The school had to remove the software.

What happened? We now do everything through the cheapest alternatives (linux, free compilers, etc).
But there's a big problem with this. Most of the time, we are using material that is much harder to use (since the free alternatives sometimes aren't as good), we have to keep 2 operating systems installed (windows for ourselves and linux for school), and, most of the time, we learn stuff that we won't actually use, because it's aimed at a platform we don't use (like linux).

For example, at a class i have, "operating systems", we learn how an operating system (at least, a good part of it) works: LINUX!
Which means, that i can use multi-threaded programming and such, but only in linux, since the instructions in windows are not the same / don't work the same way (or so i have been told).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: nudone on May 30, 2006, 04:35 AM

The trouble is there really isn't an open source equivalent of Photoshop. The Gimp can do some of it but it isn't really in the same league at all and not really aimed at photographic processing. I suppose the cheaper solution for students is to get Photoshop Elements which does most of what Photoshop does these days (unless they need to learn about prepress, CMYK etc).

-Carol Haynes (May 30, 2006, 04:17 AM)

i didn't realise the gimp was that bad - or do you just mean it's okay, say, it's like an older version of photoshop from years ago or does it really suck when photo editing.

i would have thought anything with layers/alpha transparency and levels/curves and a few colour adjustments would be pretty good. isn't it just a case of if you use the gimp it might take a bit longer than to acheive the same result within photoshop?

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: koncool on May 30, 2006, 04:47 AM

I doubt most crackers use many of the apps they crack.

That's for sure. The scene is not about cracking for yourself, but it's more of a whoever-cracks-more-in-less-time-is-elite game.

The hardcore pirates will pirate even if prices were dropped substantially, probably even if photoshop cost $10.

What do you mean? Being 'hardcore' has nothing to do with still pirating software even if it costs a dollar... All teams did it, do it and will continue doing it, however most focus mainly in the expensive pieces of software.

(No, I'm not associated with all that stuff, I just happen to know people).

Indeed, c4n is a way to get to know that kind of people better... lol ;D

Okay, let's be honest - we all want to use the 'big names' out there. When you think of a good image processor, isn't Photoshop that comes to mind? When you think of a good sound editor, isn't Sound Forge or Cool Edit that comes to mind? How many do you think prefer The Gimp or Paint.net or Audacity over the aforementioned software? If you guys had both commercial and opensource or freeware or something software for the same task, which one would you use? So, it's a matter of quality. In MOST, not all cases though, you get what you pay for. Those questions are just provided as food for thought.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: koncool on May 30, 2006, 04:55 AM

And no, the purpose of the post above isn't to defend piracy but to help you decide if it's sometimes justifiable or not...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: tsaint on May 30, 2006, 05:08 AM

OK there are issues but even at academic license prices it must be horrendously expensive.

I can understand your students dilemma thought - both MS Office and Photoshop even at Academic prices are not cheap.

-Carol Haynes (May 30, 2006, 04:14 AM)

The state government education department buys licenses for the whole state from microsoft for some of their products, but not so for photoshop/dreamweaver et al.
 I thought of you because I reckoned you might have some sympathy for a harried network manager trying to keep all manner of product running with minimal external support (must be very lonely at the top :)  )
jgpaiva, I understand exactly what you're saying and that's the manager's worst nightmare I reckon. Maybe there's a middle path though ... for example why not a simple screen shot program that is easy to use, doesn't bog students down with a zillion un-needed features and is low maintenance? Same with several other types of app - and our needs are modest because we're not a university

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: koncool on May 30, 2006, 05:23 AM

Plus, warez makes software more popular... Do you know how many times Doom 3 was leeched, BEFORE its official release? And something else, would you really pay for software you just want to use once, if the demo/trial can't do it?

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 30, 2006, 07:08 AM

The hardcore pirates will pirate even if prices were dropped substantially, probably even if photoshop cost $10.

What do you mean? Being 'hardcore' has nothing to do with still pirating software even if it costs a dollar... All teams did it, do it and will continue doing it, however most focus mainly in the expensive pieces of software.

I meant hardcore as in "those people you just can't reach" - either because they're anti-capitalist or just cheap-asses :)

When you think of a good image processor, isn't Photoshop that comes to mind?

Actually, I think of Paint Shop Pro 9 - it fits my needs better than the big Photoshop package. Loads faster, and doesn't have as steep a learning curve as photoshop, and does what I need. I miss some things from the really old Micrografx Picture Publisher, by the way... was one of the easiest way of doing Alpha that I've worked with, and it had "objects" in supplement to "layers" - was also nice to work with.

And something else, would you really pay for software you just want to use once, if the demo/trial can't do it?

A few games, yes - because the cost per hour is cheaper than a cinema ticket :)

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 30, 2006, 10:33 AM

The trouble is there really isn't an open source equivalent of Photoshop. The Gimp can do some of it but it isn't really in the same league at all and not really aimed at photographic processing. I suppose the cheaper solution for students is to get Photoshop Elements which does most of what Photoshop does these days (unless they need to learn about prepress, CMYK etc).

-Carol Haynes (May 30, 2006, 04:17 AM)

i didn't realise the gimp was that bad - or do you just mean it's okay, say, it's like an older version of photoshop from years ago or does it really suck when photo editing.

-nudone (May 30, 2006, 04:35 AM)

As I understand it the Gimp is aimed at image editing for monitor display and web pages, and not optimized or really designed for photography. It is a long time since I used the Gimp maybe things have changed but it used to be limited to screen resolutions (ie. 92 dpi).

The Gimp is probably fine for learning about techniques if you want something free but if you want a cheap alternative to Photoshop there are really only two options Photoshop Elements and Paint Shop Pro. There are other apps out there but none of them have the breadth of those two.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Gothi[c] on May 30, 2006, 10:53 AM

As I understand it the Gimp is aimed at image editing for monitor display and web pages, and not optimized or really designed for photography. It is a long time since I used the Gimp maybe things have changed but it used to be limited to screen resolutions (ie. 92 dpi).

That must have been really long ago, because as far as I can remember you could always manually enter a dpi. A little more recent, they also put in a bunch of templates for new documents with predefined dpi values.

[edit]

CMYK is available through a plugin.
http://freshmeat.net/projects/cmykgimp/

[/edit]

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 30, 2006, 11:02 AM

It's a long time since I tried Gimp - probably the best solution is to try it and see ... it is free after all!

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Edvard on May 30, 2006, 01:10 PM

And you might want to go with GimpShop (http://www.gimpshop.net/)- The gimp but hacked so it looks and behaves more like PhotoShop.

I used to work at a shop where the head IT guys were on two ends of the spectrum- one was a Perl dev and so any small solution that was needed he whipped up in Perl and passed it around. Done.
The other guy was the model case for just enough piracy (http://longtail.typepad.com/the_long_tail/2005/08/just_enough_pir.html). He was constantly on the hunt for the latest and greatest app for any given task, and frequently used cracks as trialware. Get it? If it worked, and worked well, he had the "proof in the pudding" (no missing functions, disabled saves, etc.) for the financial department to shell out the cash for a legit copy of said killer app. If not, he would uninstall and never be heard from again. Done.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on May 30, 2006, 11:12 PM

I certainly don't think a donation model would work. I *do* think a tiered pricing system would! The commercial vs. home user paradigm should be much more widely adopted. Yes, there are home users who want to use Photoshop but will not be making money off it! I would much rather pay $100-200 or something for Photoshop (normally like $700) and be entitled to updates, support, etc. than use a pirated version. It should not just be confined to academic versions. They could even have tiered support, giving priority to commercial customers. I'd have no problem with that.

"Light" versions of applications don't really do it for me either, not by a long shot. Most of the time if I want a big, expensive app, I want all of it. :D But it's very true that my use of for example Cinema4D is going to be far less intensive and financially lucrative for me than someone using it professionally. Again I would pay 1-$200 for it and be glad of it.

I think what they need to do is look at what the real value of both their applications *and* services are. If they can parcel it out a bit more and make some things optional, maybe it'd be more "ok" to lower the price. I honestly do not *want* Adobe Bridge, at all. So if that's the big new feature they spent a year making for CS2, they can leave it out of my version and just sell me whatever updates there are to the core Photoshop app. I'd never use ImageReady either (I would just use the web bits of Photoshop - my needs are not that demanding for web use), so they can leave that out. Let's forget light versions, just strip out all the extra crap and sell me the core app for less, as a non-commercial user. By agreeing to the license I am as much legally bound to not use the output commercially as a commercial user who only buys one license is to not install it on multiple systems. If you are worried about the non-commercial user making money, then worry about the commercial user also installing more licenses than they should. In reality they shouldn't worry much about either one. Those who will be trustworthy will abide by the rules, those who wouldn't anyway (and would be more prone to piracy) are basically a lost cause.

The library analogy is a really interesting one. A lot of places do now provide online downloadable demos, and more and more they are making them fully featured I think, instead of cutting them down. I got Adobe Audition and it seems to be fully functional. So that's kind of like the "library" approach - you "check it out" (download it), then you have to "return it" (it expires) in x number of days. You can check it out again (uninstall/reinstall, or at most redownloaded - unless the app is really a bugger and you have to hunt down its install key and kill it or similar). If they made this more condoned it might be a good thing. The constant check-out might entice people to buy. That seems like the idea of a demo anyway, it's just supposedly not for longer-term use.

Personally I think the most fair approach would be some kind of micropayments system. It could be done per company/application, or everyone could go through some standard micropayment gateway, or several options of them (let's say - god forbid - Paypal created one for example). The payment gateway would be a separate piece of software you installed on your system and applications that supported it would detect it and hook in. Then for every say hour you used Photoshop it would charge you $1 or 10 cents or whatever. At the least it would make the actual price a whole lot more bearable by spreading it out over a long time. It would also net *new* income from those who don't actually need to own Photoshop but definitely need it for one or two things here and there, or just for this one thing *right now*. Of course we all know the issues with such systems and why they haven't been done before, but it's still an interesting theoretical approach anyway. It seems quite appealing to me.

The point about "leading by example" in schools, etc. is a very interesting one too. I agree that this can be "setting a bad example" in that it makes people desire expensive software. There's nothing really wrong with using commercial, expensive software provided A: it gets the job done noticeably better/faster/easier than a free/OS alternative and B: it fits within the institution's budget. However at the least the free/OS alternatives should be made aware to students. I do work in an educational institution as the Technical Coordinator and although I don't interact with students much, I am definitely trying to make the move to free/OS software. I have spent years finding the best free/OS programs (this place has helped a lot of late, too), so I have a good stockpile. Now that I'm working for a single company I have to make sure the license allows for corporate use - being an educational institution *and* a non-profit definitely makes that easier. In many cases I've needed to contact authors to get a precise answer on licensing terms. In most cases I am given the ok to use it, which is great. We now use Open Office and Thunderbird on a number of machines and I'm working toward moving to Firefox as well. We use Tugzip or Zipgenius, Foxit PDF Reader, XnView, etc. And notably all of them are vastly superior tools to what was being used before! The point anyway is that using free/OS software doesn't have to be a sacrifice. It's a genuine alternative and it can actually improve productivity and capability.

Btw, having recently tried Sound Forge to work on an audio problem I have, I actually would far rather use Audacity! Audicaty is way faster, believe it or not. :D I intend to post a thread about that soon (speed of commercial apps vs. free/OS, specifically in media editing). The point though is that the commercial product is *not* always superior! There is Kristal and Reaper as well for multi-track editing, both seem to do what they do very well, possibly as well as Adobe Audition/Sound Forge/etc. I think in certain market segments there are free/OS alternatives that are genuine competitors. This is not true in all areas, and it probably has something to do with how unusual the UI is, how readily copyable an existing product's UI/approach is, etc. I think good, original UI design is not the strength of free/OS software, in most cases. :D Cross-platform needs also play heavily into open source issues. The Gimp is as clunky as it is partly because Windows is not its native platform. ;) There are a number of freeware paint apps that are much nicer though, like Photofiltre, Paint.NET, etc.

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on May 30, 2006, 11:21 PM

koncool makes some great points here. If for no other reason, if you're the curious sort, you want to try everything, especially to see how the expensive software stacks up against Open Source options. And I agree with Deozaan that piracy does increase sales. Carol notes that some were never going to buy it anyway, so it can't be construed as theft. Microsoft came to that conclusion in China and India when they acknowledged reality and created a XP Lite or starter version at a super cheap price, I can't remember the name of it.

I have a friend who consults in China — you know the guy who works to take away good German, French, British, and American jobs (yes, I give him a hard time, too) — and every time he returns he brings huge suitcases of movies and software, none of it costing more than €$1 per DVD. Is that piracy? Yes, because the Chinese street market guy had the latest copy of X-Men 3 before the theatres did. Am I complaining about the €$1 price in and of itself? Never!

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on May 30, 2006, 11:22 PM

i want to echo the idea that tiered pricing seems to me like it might help these things a lot.
if you could find a more reasonable way of properly classifying home users vs. moderate sized companies, then you might be able to do it on a larger scale.  it would make a lot of sense to say photoshop is $5 for the unemployed, $50 for home users, and $500 for companies.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on May 30, 2006, 11:40 PM

Yes Mouser, I'm all for it! I think companies simply can't be bothered to deal with the additional licensing and compliance complexity. But at the same time they'll spend tons of money on elaborate new copy protection schemes. It's rather frustrating! Here they could essentially be accomplishing the same effect, possibly making *more* money, and working essentially for the greater good, yet they would rather choose to spend more money and alienate more of their customers with a new copy protection approach that accomplishes little (Photoshop is still readily cracked as is just about everything else :D).

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Cpilot on May 30, 2006, 11:50 PM

i want to echo the idea that tiered pricing seems to me like it might help these things a lot.
if you could find a more reasonable way of properly classifying home users vs. moderate sized companies, then you might be able to do it on a larger scale.  it would make a lot of sense to say photoshop is $5 for the unemployed, $50 for home users, and $500 for companies.

So in other words a company or an individual is not entitled to own and therefore set the worth/price of their efforts and property?
The collective socialist hive mind should determine the worth of a company or individuals effort depending ....on what?
What they believe their entitled too?
Should people who also work and save for 30 - 40 years have a bunch of lazy sloths come along and decide that because that individual saved and invested for their retirement and you didn't your entitled to a portion of the years of sacrifice,sweat and effort that individual made to enrich themselves because...what? Your a bunch of spoiled little a**holes that think you deserve it?
Why not just declare yourselves thieves and be done with the pretense?
Because in reality that's exactly what this thread is discussing. How to rationalize yourselves as thieves.

It's the same excuse people use to rationalize shoplifting and petty theft....ohhh it's too expensive...they don't deserve to make a profit they're capitalists!!!!!.

This thread is a joke  :down:

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on May 31, 2006, 12:05 AM

cpilot -
i think you missed the entire point of javajones reply to my saying that, which i agree with.
no one said they should be forced to price things that way - we are simply suggesting that if they did that they might:

• make more money
• gain larger market share
• build a more loyal and happy user base
• do some good for the world

there are some difficulties of course, but perhaps not insurmountable ones.  the use of tiered pricing *is* increasing it seems.. let's hope this trend continues.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on May 31, 2006, 12:21 AM

lol, sorry Cpilot your hackles are raised needlessly. The fact is piracy happens. Whether or not anyone here pirates software is irrelevent to most any company, so whether anyone is justifying their own use of pirated software doesn't bear on what's important to the company. What *is* relevant, in general, is "the bottom line". I certainly have not intended to propose anything that would endanger a company's bottom line. Rather the opposite in fact.

So, speaking for myself I am looking at it from both sides: how can companies maximize their profits while also minimizing wasted effort, which includes effort wasted on copy protection schemes that in effect provide no more protection than previous schemes. Do you think the Photoshop CS2 activation meant significantly fewer copies were pirated? Considering it was broken in about the same amount of time as previous copy protection I am guessing not. Even if that were the case the better question is did Adobe net more sales because if it? Unless the answer is a categorical yes (very hard to prove - new features in CS2 could attract new customers for example), then it was a waste of time and money for Adobe.

So the question then becomes, if draconian copy protection schemes are not an answer, and piracy is at an unacceptable level, how do you remedy that? One proposed solution could be tiered software pricing based on voluntarily defined usage. Many smaller software developers are already using this model with some evident success. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, it is merely suggested that such an approach might have benefits for all involved - the company included. Think about the potential ramifications in real terms, irrespective of the unconventional nature of the approach. Just because it's different doesn't make it wrong or bad, and just because it's suggested doesn't make it a directive or an expectation.

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Cpilot on May 31, 2006, 12:24 AM

cpilot -
i think you missed the entire point of javajones reply to my saying that, which i agree with.
no one said they should be forced to price things that way - we are simply suggesting that if they did that they might:

make more money
gain larger market share
build a more loyal and happy user base
do some good for the world

there are some difficulties of course, but perhaps not insurmountable ones.  the use of tiered pricing *is* increasing it seems.. let's hope this trend continues.

Oh please.
This is just another rationaliztion thread for piracy.

You go into Kmart and you buy a 19 inch TV. When you take it home you can watch porno on it, take it apart, smash it against a wall...hell it's yours.
But if Kmart says you gotta pay 125.00 US for it, just because you don't have 125.00 US don't mean you have a right to demand they sell it for 25.00 US or your going to steal it.

Part of being an adult is if you want something bad enough you go out and actully work for it. Stealing just because you can't afford it is not an excuse.
Software vendors have a right to charge what they please...the market will determine the value.

Again this is just another thread designed to rationalize the theft of software.
Theft is theft......just because it goes on don't mean it's right. So that excuse don't fly.
Companies are not in the business to garner good will or "do good", their in business to make a profit.
I have investments....if any company I invest in does crap like this for "good will" I would pull my money and invest it where I can make a profit.
You can't make a profit from small time losers who won't invest in something that has value. It's not a smart investment.
Plain and simple.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on May 31, 2006, 12:54 AM

There are a couple of discussions happening simultaneously here..
One discussion is about why it might be beneficial for everyone (INCLUDING THE COMPANIES PROFITS) to have a more "enlightened" pricing system.  Clearly some companies have implemented tiered pricing for their own selfish reasons.  Dual open source licenses are becoming more popular - where the software is free for open source/non-profit use, but costs money for commercial use.  Again these companies are doing this because they think it makes economic sense.

The other discussion is about the ethics of using pirated software.  That's a much stickier issue.  I do think there is a difference between legality, morality, ethics.  I think people need to consider the ethical consequences of their actions.  But in a world so stacked against individuals (especially those who are struggling for financial survial) and so stacked in favor of large corporations, that such issues are not as simple as you might think.

I don't presume to have all the answers.  This site will not condone software piracy - we are more interested in finding an alternative way to find a healthy medium.  Your description of business as only concerned with profit is what i think is wrong with this world - everyone seems to be coming to accept the idea that the only rational goal of any individual or business is simply to grab as much profit as possible as fast as possible, and damned the consequences or anyone else.  The only goal of any business it to get as big as possible, as fast as possible, and aquire as much power as possible.  that's an exaggeration but not a huge one.  does it have to be that way? i hope not.  i hope there's still room in this world for reasonable people to seek a reasonable middle ground.  those of us who recognize we have to make some money to live but who have desires that are more important than profit, like doing something we enjoy that doesn't make the world a worse place.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: app103 on May 31, 2006, 01:11 AM

My suggestion is for schools to use open source/freeware alternatives to help students avoid the lure of pirated software. If "industry standard" software is needed for a vocational course, so be it, else don't use it and students would then have compatabilty as an incentive to use open source / freeware at home, as well as having their consciousness raised on this issue.

-tsaint (May 29, 2006, 09:30 PM)

Maybe it might raise the cost of their schooling a bit, but why not make it a policy to give every student a legal copy of the software they will be learning how to use? If this was done, schools would most likely move to open source & freeware when they can to avoid the cost of giving out expensive software.

But it's corporate use of software that dictates what they will learn to use in school. Why give students Open Office and then turn them loose in a world where they will be expected to use MS Office and know all the details of how that software works?

And imagine if schools made students learn by using Paintshop Pro rather than Photoshop? Paintshop Pro can do just about everything Photoshop can. But once you graduate, you will be expected to use Photoshop.

And why is this? Because that is what the businesses will purchase. Why do they purchase something more expensive when they can save tons by using something else? Because schools keep churning out people that only know how to use the expensive crap. It has become a vicious cycle that there seems to be no way out.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on May 31, 2006, 01:23 AM

I think app's point is important, and it reminds me of one of the very best arguments against using pirated software that i've read, from an ethical standpoint.  if anyone knows the article i'm talking about please post it.

Basically the article argued a counter-intuitive point.  That the use of pirated software doesn't hurt the software companies making the software that is pirated - since the people who use pirated versions weren't likely to be potential customers.  It argued that it hurts most the open source and free alternative companies, who would OTHERWISE be thriving if there was no piracy.  It makes some sense and it's an extremely important point to bear in mind.  Does piracy hurt the open source, free, and donationware software community, because if people really couldn't use pirated versions of programs they would be more willing to support, contribute, and encourage these alternatives?

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: jgpaiva on May 31, 2006, 03:52 AM

i want to echo the idea that tiered pricing seems to me like it might help these things a lot.
if you could find a more reasonable way of properly classifying home users vs. moderate sized companies, then you might be able to do it on a larger scale.  it would make a lot of sense to say photoshop is $5 for the unemployed, $50 for home users, and $500 for companies.

-mouser (May 30, 2006, 11:22 PM)

I like the part about $5 for the unemployed, since i'm unemployed myself.
But... That's impossible to do in reality, it can't be controlled. (who would know i was buying something for my father, who could be very rich, but paying 1/10th of the price?)

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: jgpaiva on May 31, 2006, 04:08 AM

And imagine if schools made students learn by using Paintshop Pro rather than Photoshop? Paintshop Pro can do just about everything Photoshop can. But once you graduate, you will be expected to use Photoshop.

-app103 (May 31, 2006, 01:11 AM)

The truth is.. That IS happening (see my post in this thread). I also think it's idiot, and it's a serious matter.
I think that in these cases, if the companies were smart enough, they'd donate some licenced copies to the schools, to earn some market share. (actually, this also happens, my school owns some academic licences of software).

The solution javajones mentioned is related to what i mentioned in my earlier post about the games where you can buy the game in parts.
I think this would be a very good solution for software, if it could be acomplished.
For example, a photoshop in a bunch of packages would be great, since some people don't use a third of the potential of photoshop. Truth is, that if this was in place, paintshop would have no costumers at all, since it'd be better to use a unified interface (photoshop), even if it was worse. (see the example of autocad)

Oh, and don't forget another important issue. Such photoshop product would earn also more users, which means even more user feedback, which i'm sure companies like.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: koncool on May 31, 2006, 04:10 AM

A few games, yes - because the cost per hour is cheaper than a cinema ticket

Okay, games are a totally different matter, I buy my games as well :Thmbsup:

And why is this? Because that is what the businesses will purchase. Why do they purchase something more expensive when they can save tons by using something else? Because schools keep churning out people that only know how to use the expensive crap. It has become a vicious cycle that there seems to be no way out.

That's for sure. Ever heard of a software called COMNET III, used for designing/testing/simulating network layouts? They used to use it a lot here. When the company was merged with another one the product line got dropped. Although there are LOTS of software that do the same job, they KEEP using that, even if they have no technical support and stuff... Another weird story from the local universities :'(

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 31, 2006, 04:25 AM

Oh please.
This is just another rationaliztion thread for piracy.

-Cpilot (May 31, 2006, 12:24 AM)

No its not - it is a rationalisation for companies to stop piracy and make more profits.

The point is that piracy happens on a massive scale and especially for the expensive applications. No one here is condoning that - certainly not me (I pay for all my software - even though some apps are excessively expensive).

However I believe piracy would be significantly reduced and sale volumes would grow in response to sensible pricing.

You only have to look at lots of areas in the business world to see that pricing is often based purely on 'what the market will pay' and is nothing to do with investment or realistic costs. Look at a few examples - why does it cost hundreds of dollars to get a lawyer to write a will for you when it is a standard format which you can write yourself on a piece of paper? Similarly I regularly get invited to conferences where a day of 'teaching' costs as much as a month's salary per person that I was paid when I taught in adult education - basically they charge what people are willing to pay and it has nothing to do with actual osts or value.

Microsoft admit this is the model they use for setting prices - it simply doesn't make sense to charge the prices they do and then spend millions on anti piracy measures which have the effect of really annoying their legitimate users. Similarly with Adobe - have either company actually sold more copies since they introduced product activation? Probably not because those who buy the software will still buy it (and be irritated by the activation and inability to easily move from one macjine to another) and those who download cracked versions and pay nothing will still do so. Wouldn't it be simpler to sell software at a price that can be easily afforded and encourage many more sales so that you make the same amount of money or more and grow your market share? In many areas volume sales (eg. food) => lower prices - but not in the software world apparently.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 31, 2006, 06:03 AM

I think you're missing the point, Cpilot.

Tiered pricing is about actually wanting to pay, but not being able to pay full price (think students, unemployed, low-income workers). Tiered pricing, if it was done (unrealistic, I'm afraid), would enable those people to get a legit version instead of pirating it, ultimately giving the company a larger income.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Darwin on May 31, 2006, 07:54 AM

I think Cpilot's point is that companies should be free to charge what they want and that they are not repsonsible for making it financially possible for people to use their software legally. If you want to use the software, you pay for it. If you can't afford it, find an alternative or don't use it. I happen not to agree with some of his/her arguments, but can see the logic of his/her argument.

Personally, I've used cracks in the past. Initially, because I hadn't considered the implications of what I was doing, later because I could not afford the software that I was using and latterly to more thoroughly test shareware that come with very crippled demos (like many here, I can't see paying more than $20 for something that I haven't been able to test thoroughly - I like to know that the features that I'm going to fork out my hard earned cash for actually work!). Over the last year, though, I've stopped using cracks altogether, mostly because I realised that I was stealing. I have purchased many of the software titles that I used to run cracked/pirated and use regularly (Office Pro and Endnote come to mind) or I have installed cheaper/opensource alternatives. I feel better about myself and am happier with the stability of my system.

I have read this thread thoroughly and really think that Cpilot has missed the spirit of many of the comments here - this seems to me to be a discussion of what motivates people to crack/pirate software and how this practice might be minimised, rather than an attempt to justifiy the practice. And lest my discussion of my own experience using cracks be misinterpreted as "justification", I view myself as an average user and offer my "story" as one more illustration of how piracy occurs in the wild.

It is tempting, perhaps, to take an absolutely moral stand on this issue but doing so does nothing to address the problem. If we don't *think* about and discuss these issues and their ramifications, how will they ever be resolved? Discussion leads to change and this discussion is about finding solutions to this particular problem that will result in positive changes for all concerned, not a rationalisation for theft.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Edvard on May 31, 2006, 10:00 AM

I don't think anybody's debating whether the programmer should make money from their efforts or not. What is being debated is that a smart programmer should look for the best sales strategy in order to, indeed, be paid and paid well especially if their effort is useful and ongoing. The authors of large commercial packages have done quite a bit to enhance the lives and work of many who use their products, of course they should be paid.
But...
we are talking about 'Software'.
Most of which is not a static thing that can come off the shelf at a store and used by a certain number of individuals at a time (licenses notwithstanding). Only one person at a time can feasibly use, say, a vacuum cleaner last time I checked. No, we have these wonderful things called computers which are not only the medium for consumption of the product, but the means by which it magically gets reproduced, often en masse to the detriment of the software authors pocketbook. If I could purchase one vacuum cleaner which I could then reproduce at will either to use in different rooms in my house or give away to a neighbor or charity, the manufacturer has lost those as sales. Because we can't reproduce a vacuum at our convenience and destroy the copies as we see fit, nor can we demand a lower price for an "upgrade", but we can with Software, we have such sticky things as EULAs and Dongles and Product Activation to ensure that Software, in it's consumption, behaves at least a little bit like a vacuum cleaner or toaster or other essential appliance than a trifle that can be thrown in the Star Trek replicator to be popped out as we please.
The point is Software, as a product, needs some sort of sales strategy that will ensure the author gets paid without inspiring the less scrupled among us to make copies distribute them simply because they can.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 31, 2006, 11:49 AM

Suppose a vacuum cleaner cost $5000 - then very few people could buy one and maybe (as in the 1920s) you would find people hiring rather than buying and some people would carry on using a brush. It makes economic sense for the manufacturer to make and sell 75 vacuum cleaners for $200 each because then everyone will buy one and he will make far more than $5000 in the process. If I do buy a vacuum cleaner I can lend it to my family and friends.

A pet hate is eBooks - I made the mistake o buying some in the early days - I can no longer read them now because Amazon (where I bought them from) no longer stock the titels so I can't reauthorise them at all. If I buy books I can read them where and when I like, lend them to friends - underline bit - cut out my favourite bits and frame them if I like, or sell it in a secondhand bookshop. My ebook ... I can't even read them!

One of the things I particularly hate about software companies is product activation - and it is becoming a growing issue even with small shareware companies. Having just reinstalled windows on my system from scratch I have had to email numerous companies around the world to be allowed to use the software I purchased. The only company that has any sense in this matter is Adobe because a single menu click allows me to deactivate the products instantly and a second click allows me to activate it again on another computer or after a reinstall. Effectively I can use Adobe products legitmately on as many computers as I like - but only one at a time which is fine.

All the other companies treat me like a criminal - I had to phone Microsoft twice (because Windows and Office refused to activate automatically and there is no way to deactivate the product) to explain that no I hadn't installed my software on another computer and yes I was reinstalling after formatting my hard disk. The only people who don't suffer in this way are the cracked software users who never have to bother.

At least with large companies they are likely to be there when you need to reactivate - but small companies come and go all the time and software may or may not be sold on. What do you do then when you have a legitmately bought piece of software that you can't use. In my vacuum cleaner analogy it is equivalent to the manufacturer having to OK its use every time you plug it in.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Cpilot on May 31, 2006, 12:36 PM

i hope there's still room in this world for reasonable people to seek a reasonable middle ground.  those of us who recognize we have to make some money to live but who have desires that are more important than profit, like doing something we enjoy that doesn't make the world a worse place.

Oh Geez.
You know one is not exclusive from the other. The idea that only "altruistic" motivations are the only ones that are "pure" is absolute bunk.
I'll give you an example. Everyone here seems to absolutely bleed for the down trodden and poor around the world. Famine and disease are of course a bane to humanity and a scourge to some nations around the world.
So the first thing everyone does is demand that the government, usually the United States government, do something!!!
And we do, as a nation the U.S. itself has contributed hundreds of billions in food aid in the last 50 years. And yet famine around the world still occurs on a regular basis.
So guess what folks ...altruism doesn't work, because the easy thing to do for everyone is to demand that governments give money and individuals give to charities and go to "relief concerts" and there ya go....we fixed the problem.
Ha
The solution to this problem goes way deeper than slogans and U2 concerts.

Economist Blames Aid for Africa Famine (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=993683)

As a matter of fact all these "feel good" remedies actually do more damage than good and makes the world a worse place. By creating dependent societies on foreign aid. There is also the corruption of local governments, little or no infrastructure to move supplies, civil wars and warlords seizing then hording supplies for their private armies.
No one wants to address these problems, so the food is there but never gets to the starving.
Altruism in this case is a dismal failure.
Even economists of the affected countries see the folly of excessive foreign aid as detrimental to their countries.
The real solution to the problems in these countries is, instead of reacting to each "crisis" as it comes along, slow and steady investment in the infrastructure and economies of the affected nations and encouraging political stability. That would save more lives in the long run. But these are profit driven goals and basically frowned upon. So millions continue to die.
There is a limit to "touchy feely" solutions to problems in the world. Like it or not profit is the leading innovation for just about anything. Computers wouldn't exist if it were not for the search for profit.
Software is no different, companies employ people, not out of the goodness of their hearts but in search of profit. Employees work for said company to receive a paycheck to support their families and buy goods from other companies and around it goes.

It's easy to sit in a air conditioned home drinking a latte, with the TV on CNN and gripe about the cost of software on a computer hooked up to a high speed connection.
Yeah, we can afford all that and yet begrudge someone a fair profit for their product. :tellme:

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 31, 2006, 12:54 PM

One of the things I particularly hate about software companies is product activation - and it is becoming a growing issue even with small shareware companies.

-Carol Haynes

Amen to that!

First off, product activation should be limited to applications that simply cannot function without being connected to the internet, or at least whose primary operation involves internet use. This could be HTTPDs or FTPDs. Online activation for anything else is plain wrong... I couldn't play HalfLife2 *single player* after moving to a new flat, because I had forgotten to set it to "offline mode", and it took a while before I could afford ADSL.

Then there's the issue of companies going bust - bye bye ability to use software / read ebooks. And it can be an issue even for large companies like Microsoft or Amazon, who says they'll keep their activation servers running for Product X in five years? Carol was obviously already bitten by that wrt. Amazon ebooks.

Yeah, we can afford all that and yet begrudge someone a fair profit for their product.

-Cpilot

You STILL haven't gotten it, have you? :)

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Cpilot on May 31, 2006, 01:06 PM

You STILL haven't gotten it, have you?

No I get it, basically the gist is if you decide it costs too much it's ok to steal it.
Your the one not "getting" it.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 31, 2006, 01:14 PM

Yeah, we can afford all that and yet begrudge someone a fair profit for their product.

-Cpilot

You STILL haven't gotten it, have you? :)

-f0dder (May 31, 2006, 12:54 PM)

That's what I thought!

Let's try one more time ...

I grow vegetables - they are very good and VERY expensive. Will anybody buy them - bet your life they will! A handful of people with more money than sense will buy them because "xpensive is always best".

The rest of the world can't actually afford them so they don't -- result I don't make much money.

Now then - same veg - affordable price - how many people buy now  ... the world does and I become stinking rich on it!

I am not saying companies shouldn't make a healthy profit - I think I am actually saying that large companies like MS and Adobe should make more money ... and the way to do that is to make the product affordable to the man in the street. Then many more will buy it and you will make more profit. Yes they employ people - but the important thing is how much money they make, not how many CDs the press.

I am also not talking about people in poverty - but someone on average income and 2.4 kids has to think hard to justify spending $700 + $150 every year on upgrades to use Photoshop ... Reducing it to $100 + $50 per upgrade would mean far more people could buy the product easily - Adobe would be quids in - they wouldn't have to spend vast amounts of money on antipiracy but their overheads would be exactly the same ... hey presto everybody wins !!! How can that possibly be an invalid argument???

The only reason Adobe and MS charge so much is because they want their products to appeal to rich businessmen - and they like to have the prestige value of having the most expensive product on the market - not because the price is in anwya justified.

If CPilot thinks this is an invalid argument how about suggesting a realistic solution to the problem rather than just repeating that companies have the right to set fair prices? At the moment so many people world wide think that prices are so unfair that piracy is rampant. I don't agree with piracy but it is a fact of life - and this thread started asking the question why should this be.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on May 31, 2006, 01:41 PM

You STILL haven't gotten it, have you?

No I get it, basically the gist is if you decide it costs too much it's ok to steal it.
Your the one not "getting" it.

-Cpilot (May 31, 2006, 01:06 PM)

That shows you really haven't gotten it.

I don't say it's okay to steal it. I say that a pricing model that allow different social groups to pay different amounts of money would eliminate some (much? little?) piracy, create bigger income for the companies, and allow users to be happy little campers because they don't need to resort to illegal means to get a piece of software.

Try actually reading what people post.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Cpilot on May 31, 2006, 01:51 PM

If CPilot thinks this is an invalid argument how about suggesting a realistic solution to the problem rather than just repeating that companies have the right to set fair prices?

It's not up to me or you to suggest a "solution". The problem isn't  the pricing, the problem is the sense of entitlement that people have to own software that they can't afford.
If you can't afford it that's not the companies/individuals problem. They're interested in the demographics of those who can, not creating a social welfare software system.
The whole argument being advanced is a fallicy from the get go, that being "we are entitled to this software come hook or crook".
Basically it's a "how dare they price it beyond what I can/am willing to pay" and then using that argument as justification for piracy.

"Well people can't afford it so guess what? they steal it!!" Well I guess that just makes it OK then?
"Piracy is happening all the time". So that makes it the software vendors fault that people are stealing it. No one else has an obligation to be moral about it, because the software companies bring it on themselves.
"Well we're only talking about something intangible here,software it's not like stealing a car!".....huh? So plagiarism isn't like stealing either? After all they're only ideas.

Bunk.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 31, 2006, 03:28 PM

Basically it's a "how dare they price it beyond what I can/am willing to pay" and then using that argument as justification for piracy.

-Cpilot (May 31, 2006, 01:51 PM)

OK I give up - you obviously can't read what I wrote because I said precisely the opposite to what you are accusing me of ... I have tried to have a discussion in this thread about what you are saying but all you do is make negative and personal comments without putting forward any constructive ideas. What's the point?

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Cpilot on May 31, 2006, 03:55 PM

The only acceptable constructive "ideas" here in this thread are basically this.
"Someone else has to accommodate us/me, my/our rights to what I/we deem to be entitled to supercede anyone else's rights to set a fair market price for their product. And in setting fair market price beyond what I/we think is reasonable cheats me out of what I/we feel entitled to."

Companies who sell this stuff don't just pick a figure out of the air and then charge what they want. They determine fair market value based on several factors. One being what their target market base will bear. Just like prices are determined with any other commodity.
You don't want constructive dialog, you just want everyone to agree with your assessment of entitlement.

Software is cracked so much for the same reason that shoplifters shoplift and people rob liquor stores. I know it ain't as sexy as "because it's a revolutionary statement against capitalism" or "we're really putting it to the man" but that's the way it is.

Just because you don't like hearing it don't make it untrue.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 31, 2006, 04:37 PM

The only acceptable constructive "ideas" here in this thread are basically this.
"Someone else has to accommodate us/me, my/our rights to what I/we deem to be entitled to supercede anyone else's rights to set a fair market price for their product. And in setting fair market price beyond what I/we think is reasonable cheats me out of what I/we feel entitled to."

-Cpilot (May 31, 2006, 03:55 PM)

All the software I have talked about I have purchased at market price. I am not arguing for myself.

Companies who sell this stuff don't just pick a figure out of the air and then charge what they want. They determine fair market value based on several factors.

Utter rubbish - companies base their prices on how much they can screw out of users - some companies like the prestige of extremely high prices because it implies their product is best. It has absolutely nothing to do with fair market value - otherwise why does MS charge more than a third of the cost of a PC for Windows - which is already included with 99% of PCs ??

You don't want constructive dialog, you just want everyone to agree with your assessment of entitlement.

How many constructive comments have you made to the discussion?

How many times have I accused people of supporting piracy without any grounds (even people, like me who have clearly stated that tjhey don't support piracy repeatedly)?

I've had enough - this is my last comment on this.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Cpilot on May 31, 2006, 05:27 PM

otherwise why does MS charge more than a third of the cost of a PC for Windows

Yeah you see this indicates that you don't understand market dynamics.
Because they can get it, that's why. A corporation has to answer to it's stockholders, they invest their money and rightfully expect a return on their investment. If I owned MS stock I would expect them to charge whatever the market would bear to maximaze the return on my investment.
If people turn away from MS and buy other OS systems then the market will drive the price down.
Ever heard of Lindows (http://www.linspire.com/)?
If it were a viable alternative there would already be inroads into the MS market and would by virtue of reasonable competition cause market pressure to lower the price.
But it's not a viable alternative is it?
Apparently neither is Linux.

I hate to break it to everyone but MS will remain dominant until there is another company that comes along with a commercially viable, translation(profitable), alternative.

How many constructive comments have you made to the discussion?

Well apparently you consider anything disagreeing with your position to not be constructive. Is it your intent to stifle arguments that are not in agreement with your own?
That the only valid comments are ones that agree with your position?
A discussion requires 2 sides. As I said it seems no one wants to hear anyone with an opposing view, just for everyone to agree with the assessment of entitlement.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: tsaint on May 31, 2006, 06:00 PM

I'm against pirated/stolen software.
I sort of believe that most companies must be intelligent enough to do their sums to calculate pricing to maximize their profit (profit including monetary, prestige, market share etc) and so if prices are high for some product, there must be a logical reason.

But I do have trouble with this:

They determine fair market value

and this

Because they can get it, that's why.

These seem rather contradictory to me. Also, I have a great deal of trouble understanding "fair market value" - Is it touchy feely code in business circles for "what we can get away with" or fair for everyone or fair for whom?
What is fair anyway?
I don't think "fairness" enters into 50% of the coporate world's thinking really, only a "protect our own interests" thinking, which I can understand, whether I like it or not

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on May 31, 2006, 06:06 PM

cpilot, i really don't understand why you are arguing with carol - she is proposing solutions that she is arguing could increase profits for the company at the same time as being better for customers (i listed these points above).

you should really be focusing the anger on people like me who are advocating for an approach to software that does not make profit the primary the primary justification and motivation for all decisions.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on May 31, 2006, 08:14 PM

I think "fair market value" means, in theory, "the amount of money that equates to the highest profits due to the ratio of license cost and number of licenses sold". "Fair" is not necessarily used in the traditional sense, or rather the sense most people take it, but it works.

In any case what I find amazing Cpilot is that you're refusing to even consider the proposed solutions that people are suggesting might make *more* money. You simply blindly assume that "companies know best" and that they *must* be pricing their software with good research and logic, so our suggestions must therefore be wrong. Well, history will tell you that is blatantly false. It is filled with companies charging too much (or not enough) for their product and failing because of it. There are also numerous studies done showing the apparent *illogic* of markets, which make pricing stategies very resistant to logical, researched conclusions. For example a study was done showing that a low regular rate for a service was preferable by customers to a seemingly high flat rate, even when the seemingly lower rate actually equated to a higher monthly bill. That seems counterintuitive yet there it is. The market is not always logical, or at least not on the surface, and most companies are really not spending millions on studies of their target market to determine pricing. Maybe MS is, but they're special. :D

Ultimately your approach sounds great in theory Cpilot, as long as you *could* make people do what's "right". Here's the thing: you *can't* make people stop piracy. As long as it is possible - and it will be as long as we are living in the land of the free and home of the brave (I hope you wouldn't suggest infringing our fundamental rights just to stop piracy?) - then people will be pirating. There is no such thing as unbreakable protection, period. The people doing the cracking are generally smarter *and* more numerous than those coming up with the protection schemes. They also have the luxury of time. So sooner or later all protection will fail, and once that happens piracy happens.

Thus what you are proposing is that companies operate with a blind eye toward reality. Create copy protection, even though it doesn't work. Price as if your copy protection worked, even though it doesn't. Essentially the success of your approach relies on the ludicrous concept that people will be more law abiding than they ever have been in history. And you insist on this apparently on the sole basis that companies have the "right" to charge what they want. Well no one is denying them that, so you can stop insisting that they are. What we are saying is that it just might be in a company's best interest to look at the *market reality* - that includes piracy as a *simple fact that cannot be eliminated* - and then price and react accordingly. Piracy exists and will continue to exist, so companies might as well figure out how to work *with* it, how to strike the best balance between minimizing it and not alienating their users. So far they're not doing a great job - see Sony, RIAA lawsuits, etc.

It's amusing to look at the great corporate blunders of history. Most recently I find great amusement in the fact that record companies were afraid of their profits being cut into by piracy, so they paid lots of money to copy protection specialists who created schemes that (surprise!) didn't work, and then they paid lots of money for litigation to stop people from pirating, and *then* they just pissed off their customers. Actually embracing the download of music seemed out of the question. I mean no one *really* wants to download all their music.. do they?

Well, Apple thought they did, and by god they were right. They're making all the record companies look foolish and taking money off the top of every transaction for music they never had anything to do with. They're merely providing a service, and one that the record companies *could* have been providing themselves if they'd had the ability to see beyond their rapidly antiquating business model. But they didn't, because they thought they had the "right" to profits, and that they could do whatever they wanted, whatever was necessary, to ensure that. The market responded and now iTunes is rapidly becoming the single most popular way to get music. Imagine having a single company, formerly unrelated to music at all, suddenly at the top, king of the toll plaza of digital distribution. And it all could have been avoided had music companies taken their heads out their arses and looked around a bit. This story will repeat itself...

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Cpilot on May 31, 2006, 09:14 PM

Yeah,
Ya know what? I've said my piece, vented my spleen and made my position known.
Therefore my interest in this topic is over.

Have fun.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on May 31, 2006, 11:58 PM

[cpilot]:...the problem is the sense of entitlement that people have to own software that they can't afford.

Cpilot steered the discussion tangentially toward the evil of piracy. However, cracking is not piracy. It's only piracy when I download, install, and use the software illegally. As mouser stated, Adobe or AutoDesk can set the price their products to any amount, high, moderate, or low. But what others have argued is that companies must be aware that if they charge €700 for a program, then the likelihood of it being cracked increases exponentially.

Therefore, companies and developers can discourage piracy — though not necessarily cracking — by sensible product pricing. Microsoft has already done this by producing a lite version of Windows and Office and selling it for next to nothing in Asia and India. I could care less who uses what software. The fact is that OpenOffice wouldn't be so popular if Microsoft had listened to its customers, had sold Office cheaper over the last fifteen years, and opened its file formats. Microsoft made that choice and they made with their eyes wide open.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on June 01, 2006, 12:10 AM

this thread is getting way too combatitive and political.
i guess it's not so surprising given the mixture of people we have on this forum.

can i remind people that we have an explicit policy on this forum to avoid political talk?  there are plenty of other places to argue politics on the web.  i realize that when the issue of capitalism and business and illegal software comes up, it's hard to avoid talking politics.. and perhaps i am guilty as well of slipping into it.

but please let's try to keep the discussion civil and respectful of each others ideas, and avoid getting into arguments over political parties.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on June 01, 2006, 12:16 AM

Agreed. I've edited my remarks.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on June 01, 2006, 06:45 AM

One more note. A common sign-off you see on many cracks is something like this:

           SUPPORT THE COMPANIES THAT PRODUCE QUALITY SOFTWARE!
 IF YOU ENJOYED THIS PRODUCT, BUY IT!  SOFTWARE AUTHORS DESERVE SUPPORT!

So that answers one question for me.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on June 01, 2006, 10:57 AM

I've always found those notes rather hypocritic, zridling - but they're right, of course :)

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Josh on June 01, 2006, 11:01 AM

If it wasnt for cracked software, and piracy, I wouldnt have just purchased Doom 3, Doom 3 ROE, and Quake 4 (Which are set to deliver today!). They let me try out the regular versions of the games, and then, since I NEED online play, I bought all three. So yes, I followed that line and supported these great developers.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Mark0 on June 01, 2006, 02:28 PM

I second that.
One time, on the Amiga, I had played a non-original (*) version of "War Head" (anyone remember that? fantastic space game, with a deep atmosphere, IMHO). Fast forward some years. When I saw on a shop on my way to work a certain "I-War", from the same author (Glyn Williams), I bought it straight away. Some thing happened some times after, for the sequel.

(*) I don't like the terms pirate, pirating, pirated, used to refer to software copying.
It's a word waaay to strong, IMHO. It reming to armed thief, murder, rape and some other outrageous crimes. It's totally offscale. And it's not a case that some groups started from day one to use that term, IMHO.

Bye!

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Baseman on June 03, 2006, 12:37 PM

I'm going to also give my 2c's worth while debating the fact that whether piracy is warranted or not.......Example: It's a known fact that some companies are over rated as far as software and prices are concerned...Yes they have a right to charge whatever they like and it's up to the consumer whether to purchase it or not, noone forces the consumer to purchase their software take note there are various companies who make the same software for the same purpose and you'll also find that their prices differ...However you do get giant companies who in my own opinion is over priced on their software, so there is a solution to this problem 'Open Source' came into being...'Open source' might not be the 'rolls royce' you looking for but the programs that have been developed do the same work:Example 'Open Office'...'Microsoft Office' there might be some diffs but at the end of the day 'Open Office' is obtainable as a download or a small fee for the CD/DVD to be shipped around the world and that's not bad for people who are at a disadvantage of purchasing Example, Microsoft Office which they cannot afford... we are basically talking about people who cannot afford it BUT there are alternatives to the issue you have many Freeware sites that you can browse and find the same software doing the same major job might not be fancy and have great looking Interfaces but at least it's legal and it works...I'd love to have programs that are used for computer music but because they are so expensive I have to do without however here again there are some freeware programs available to do the same job not fancy or easy but they do work...Expensive softwares that are pirated for the benefit of being utilised by the user to make money from is certainly (to me) a criminal offence)...If someone uses pirated software and like using it should buy the program and support the developer who propably has a family to support and relies on that income...Now you also have the music scene...Musicians work hard and spend a lot of time and money producing their music and should also be compensated...The Moral of the story is if you cannot afford something and freeware is not good enough you go without...If you walk into a store and you see a chair that you really like and you find it's too expensive you bargain with the guy, if your'e not satified then you leave the store empty handed....(Unless you desperatly want it so bad you tempted into trying to stealing it...That's a criminal offence) ...And So is Pirating....

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Othalian on June 12, 2006, 04:41 AM

Hi All

This has been an interesting read and the topic appears to be going round and round with some very heated comments.

For my pennies worth I would not condon the pirating of software and I will 'NEVER' and have 'NEVER' paid full price for commercial software. What I do is spend a part of my time reading magazines, newspapers and web sites looking for bargains. Some of the great bargains I have managed to obtain in the past are:

1. Microsoft Office Pro 97 £50 (The company had bulk purchase the software and needed to get rid of it quickly.)
2. Microsoft Office Pro 2000 Update £25 (Directly from Microsoft themselves after proving that I had purchased a copy of Microsoft Office Pro 97 within the last few months.)
3. Microsoft XP Pro £130.
4. OneNote 2003 Free for Microsoft (Yes believe it. This was a thank you from Microsoft for taking part in one of their software reviews.)

Computer magazines are another great place to get your hands on some good software even when it is a year or more old. Within the magazine there is also quite often a discount on any full version purchases you make. If you register the software then you will also receive notification of any discounts that are announced by the software company, and these can be for over 50% off the original price. A recent discounted software is NetObjects Fusion 9 Standard. Its original price was around £190 and is now selling on their web site for approximately £130. I am sure that I received an email a few weeks ago offering it for even less.

If I cannot wait for a piece of software, or afford it, I then look at freeware or open source software where I have obtained NVu, OpenOffice, Gimp, Paint.NET, InkScape, Power Defragmenter, Blender, Picasa 2, etc but to name a few. While they are not the best on the web they do the tasks I require and more importantly they are FREE.

In a perfect world we would expect companies to look a all levels of our society and expect them to set a price based on our ability to pay. Unfortunately we do not live in that world but this one. Some companies provide an open source version and a commercial version while others supply demo versions. A good example of this is StarOffice and OpenOffice from SUN. Perhaps other companies could do the same but don't hold your breath.

I feel that companies could do more to reduce their prices for educational establishments which would get kids interested in the likes of 3D animation, graphic design, game design, etc while reducing the educational expendature. This was something that Microsoft introduced a few years ago when discovering that users once they become accustomed to using a piece of software continue to use that software throughout their lives.

Those that are unemployed or on low incomes, I feel, is not have a reason to be treated any differently to any other person in society. If they wish to have the best software then this should provide them with a urge to want to earn better wages. People who work and pay a mortgage, etc would have to save up for the software they need so why should the unemployed or those on low incomes be treated any differently? Holding a hand out for help is becoming more ingrained in our society; what happened to pride and making your own way in the world? Yes it is hard but it is worth all the trouble in the end when YOU can buy the software or hardware you desire when you want it.

Finally, companies could always reduce their prices and gain more customers but why should they. Yes most if not all software is vastly overpriced but who is at fault? I would suggest that it is the customer who is at fault. Why? Simple, because the customer is paying the price that the company demands. If everyone took their hands out of their pockets and said no to high prices then the companies would have to reduce their prices. This will never happen because there will always be those who want the latest bells and whistles NOW! So stop gripping about cost and a socialist state and become more proactive in forcing companies to lower their prices based on sound arguements which benefits them as much as it benefits YOU!

Regards

Othalian  ;D

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Lashiec on June 13, 2006, 06:31 AM

The question is not why is so much software cracked, but why people use cracked software. Spain is the first country of the so called "first world" in the piracy ranks. We can't compete with the likes of China of Vietnam, but you can swear that we piracy multimedia more than any other rich country in the world. Not only software, but also games, movies, music and even books. This happens because in Spain we have this zero effort culture that leads to us to make as much money as possible, ignoring the methods we use to achieve that. In other words, we see a thing so we want it. So that's why people uses cracked software, we want to use the best software but we don't want to pay a cent for it. Most of the people using Photosop and AutoCAD doesn't actually know how to use them. Heck, I've seen people using Photoshop as a scanner replacement software. And most of the tasks they use Photoshop for could be achieved with XnView of IrfanView. Same goes for AutoCAD.

Also, people uses cracked software because software is almost the last thing they're willing to spend money in. I used to be in this group 'til recent ages :). Being a student with no occupation doesn't get you much money (nothing at all in fact), so cracking software was the only way I could get to use some software. I didn't crack  too many programs, but Diskeeper and PowerTools were in the list (I hope Jouni Vuorio isn't reading this :D). Things have changed since then, and I moved to free and open source software provided that I still can't afford shareware (except for PowerTools, which I beta test). The same thing could be said about games and music. I'm slowly moving from pirated games and music to original ones (even if I didn't do it, between 60 and 70 percent of the music I have is original, and more than 90 percent of my games are original too). I don't really think that software is that much expensive, but heck, if you can get something for free, you won't think it twice. I don't think that morality and ethic will stop people in doing that, even in my case, I only stopped cracking software because of ethics (if in the future I want to make a living of this, I can't contribute to the destruction of the software industry :D). In the music and games choice, I choose original because the feeling of a complete album compared with a pirated album (with the badly printed cover and no booklet) it's not the same...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on June 13, 2006, 07:07 PM

[Lashiec]:...Heck, I've seen people using Photoshop as a scanner replacement software.

Okay, that's the best thing I've read all week! I've always seen people try to do everything — and I mean everything — through their word processors.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 13, 2006, 07:14 PM

Hey I've used Word to scan images ...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Baseman on June 17, 2006, 06:18 AM

OK...So everyone has their own opinion about cracked software...NOW...Let's skip the main course and get to the Dessert...Who can honestly say they have never used or tried cracked software in their entire computing lives :tellme:?...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on June 17, 2006, 06:35 AM

:P

I can say that I've had a tough job of cleaning up the mess left behind by previous admins at the museum I sysadmin. One thing is using pirated stuff at home, but ffs - you don't install pirated software as an admin.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: nudone on June 17, 2006, 06:39 AM

i can honestly swear i've never used anything even remotely illegal - especially cracked software - also, i have never used a computer in my entire life.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on June 18, 2006, 04:55 AM

Oh hale yea, I've used cracks to test software I'd never buy or use. For example, some video and, of all things, machining apps I've tested using cracks, and then passed on the recommendations to others. My thing is, if it stays on my machine, then I buy it. If not, I discard it, which convinces me of the validity of Carol's point (read her prior posts). Based on what I've received in over 500 emails over the past couple of weeks, people don't depend on cracks for their everyday work software, and tend to use them to explore and see what's worth buying or having.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Rover on June 18, 2006, 09:33 AM

Coming in late on this discussion... sorry.

I've read the argument several times that if software were less expensive, vendors would sell more and make higher profits.  I beg to differ.

The more software you sell, the more your support costs go up.  Why?  Because there are more people who can't deal with computer problems than can.  So basically, the price is a designed restriction on how many copies will sell.  If the price gets too low, your costs go up and profits down.

That being said, I like the license/support costs to be seprate.  I'll decide if I need to pay for ongoing support based on my experience with and need for a product.  If it's not terribly important, I don't want to pay for support I won't need/use.

 :two:

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 18, 2006, 11:24 AM

I think the last part of your comment is reasonable -  or at least would be if that were the situation. Lots of companies now do both - high prices and then only paid for support (MS & Adobe spring to mind on this one). Fortunately Adobe still provide free telephone support in the UK But I don't think they do in the US. But then UK Prices are generally up to 50% higher than US prices.

A good model to my way of thinking is:

1) Lower price software
2) Paid for support for professionals
3) Free web based peer-peer forums support for everyone who wants free help.

Option 3 is really good when the developers help with genuine problems and look for bug reports but for most support (where users are clueless rather than a software problem) peer-peer works really well.

If you look at Adobe as a model many pro users frequent their web forums/usenet boards (which duplicate each other so there is dual access) and most problems are peer-peer solved issues. When a particularly difficult issue or a true software related issue arises Adobe staff chime in. MS does similar with its volunteer MVP scheme.

Given this basis of support, costs actually go down because you are charging a lot for premium personal support (which Adobe/MS do) and the user base provides most of the other 'confusion' support for free. It also builds up a loyal user community base which means that people stick with the products through version after version.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on June 18, 2006, 02:23 PM

yep, i think it makes a lot of sense where you guys (especially carol) are going with this.
i think the open source community is also helping to shift things in this direction.
it sort of makes some sense to me that software may move more towards being "free" out of the box (or at least very cheap), and perhaps even open source, with Support Costs being where the real money is made from companies.  People who can't afford pay support can get support (and provide support) in the free public forums.  In this way, as carol alluded too, your free users could become a valuable part of the support system to everyone.  In a sense then, you are giving the software out for free in order to create a base of users to provide support to others.

The real fly in this ointment (especially for open source tool) may be the fact that 3rd party companies may step in and offer support services, undercutting the main company and making that approach a non-viable way to profit. maybe there could be some way to solve this?

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: app103 on June 18, 2006, 03:26 PM

While reading about the ideas of charging for support, something started to sound really familiar. Then I remembered...

One of the founders of Red Hat, Bob Young, who went on to found LuLu.com (http://www.lulu.com), wrote a book about making money by giving away software. (One of the books on my reading ToDo list that I haven't had the chance to read but will)

And guess what? He's giving it away (http://www.lulu.com/content/29611) ...if you download it (print edition is $4.83)

The older description of the book, at the time I downloaded my copy, kind of suggested that his approach was that you make your money in services provided after you give the software away..like support...and training.

-----

And if you haven't noticed, Microsoft is suddenly giving away a lot of very pricey things...or at least providing a scaled down version of many of their developer's tools. So even Microsoft realizes the benefits of placing it within affordable reach. So now there really isn't a reason for hobby programmers, those that work unpaid on open source projects, freeware authors, or students, to go after pirated versions of things like VS2005. And Borland has been giving away personal editions of their developer tools for a long time. And these are very usable products they are giving away here.

I hope more big companies decide to make this a real trend.

-----

Sometimes the volunteer support you get in forums is better than the support you would pay for...or is provided by paid employees of the company.

AOL discovered a valuable resource in its customer base of experienced users and allowed them to have their own area to offer free volunteer tech support to others.

My experience has been that they know the software better than the paid tech support guys, as they use it every day, and they know all the little tricks that aren't in the official script.

I know this from 2 angles: I have received help in their live user2user help chat with issues that even the paid guys had no solution for...and eventually volunteered, myself, back in the AOL 6.0 days. The volunteer user2user support is top notch and the first place I would suggest any AOL user to go to first, if they can. If it's not accessible, then pick up your phone and talk to the less knowledgeable paid guys.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on June 18, 2006, 03:30 PM

Humm, since I'm a programmer, I'm against making software entirely free. Cheaper, sure, but free - no.

Why? I want to earn money by writing (quality) code, not by offering support. But of course, providing software of the typical GPL quality would mean earning a lot of money on support :P

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on June 18, 2006, 04:33 PM

good point f0dder..
this actually reflects my fear about the current direction of financing open source projects - that middlemen support providers will make money while coders wouldn't.

i dont know if it's practical but..
imagine this scenario:

what if there was a law that anyone could provide support for any software, BUT
companies provifing support for free/open source software had to kick back 50% of profits to the software author.

i know it would be a hard law to implement, but that would actually address the issue and might be a good tradeoff of work vs. pay and put money where it belongs.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: urlwolf on June 18, 2006, 07:26 PM

But then UK Prices are generally up to 50% higher than US prices.

-Carol Haynes (June 18, 2006, 11:24 AM)

And the reason for this being? I mean, there is no shipping cost, no difference in material availability, no need for translation (if written in US-english)... I honestly don't know how companies can justify this.

Hardware is also %50 higher, but here I can see *some* reasons (shipping, smaller market, small differences -e.g. keyboard on a laptop....)

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Rover on June 18, 2006, 08:01 PM

And the reason for this being?

-urlwolf (June 18, 2006, 07:26 PM)

ummm..... EU taxes?

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on June 18, 2006, 08:32 PM

Carol's response is very much along the lines of what I was thinking in reading Rover's posts. Great points by both, but I agree with Carol, we're talking in general about shifts in mindset and business approach here, so the change in software pricing is not occurring in a vaccuum and should be done along with other changes like creating user-to-user support services (forums, even hosted chat). These actually lower your support costs, so either your total support cost stays the same while increasing your user base, or it may even go down.

Now of course there are those users who wouldn't know to investigate the forum and other user-to-user support options, but if they're buying the cheaper product you will have fully made them aware of the limitations on official support, so there's really no room for them to complain.

I for one would definitely like to see more separate in support and actual development/production costs.

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 19, 2006, 04:19 AM

But then UK Prices are generally up to 50% higher than US prices.

-Carol Haynes (June 18, 2006, 11:24 AM)

And the reason for this being?

-urlwolf (June 18, 2006, 07:26 PM)

Actually it isn't just taxes - usually they are on top of the 30-50% hike.

The main reasons are:

1. Because they can (this applies to MS, Adobe and Corel). Exactly the same argument used for the silly prices of some of the products. I actually asked Adobe and Corel why they charged more in the EU and actually got a response. Both companies said "xxxxx in the UK is a totally separate company responsible for its own pricing policy" .... just a shame that the disc you receive aren't EU specific - we still have to put up with the US inability to spell English!!!

2. Because they think we are stupid ... you go to a page that says $399 and then in the checkout system they ask for your country .... oh look simple sums in the UK it is £399 + VAT (which is another 17.5%) .... of course UK people are too stupid to notice that in 2 clicks the price has gone up by about 40%. Some companies also charge too much for VAT! Different EU companies charge different rates. The UK rate is 17.5% but some companies (not the big ones mentioned above) charge anything up to 27% - which as far as I am concerned is illegal (fraud/deception/greed/lying bastards) and they don't have the right to make a charge to cover their tax collection costs - it is part of their legal responsibility for trading in Europe.

3. Almost all of the special offers on web pages for the big companies apply only to the US and Canada because they force others to use their local company.

Sony does a good one now - if you buy e.g. SoundForge you can get the software as a download product - but they only supply the soundeffects etc. on CD. Guess what - the CD costs nothing but they charge something like $40 to post it to the UK. This is a single CD in a card folder in a bubble bag - so the actually postage cost is probably under $4-5 by AirMail. To add insult to injury when it arrives all you get is a sampler of SFX in their collection and to do anything useful you need to spend more money on SFX compliations and postage. To be fair they inherited this practice from Sonic Foundry but there is no real excuse. They would argue that they post it with 48 hour delivery via FedEx - but they don't give any option - do they really need FedEx to post a CD sampler?

The final reason is that we live in ripoff Britain where everything is high (except salaries) ... I find it really amusing to hear Americans whinging about gas prices - petrol in the UK has been nearly 3x the price of US gas for years ... and then they wonder why UK business collapses in world competition. That's why I now speak to someone in Delhi when I try to call my telephone company (BRITISH Telecom!)

Sorry - this rant could go on for a long time and it would probably become quite political - so I'll shut up now ... :-[

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: urlwolf on June 19, 2006, 04:36 PM

Nice post, Carol.

I live in the UK -previously lived in the US for 4 years- and this is news for me. How can an entire country ignore this? Can an economy be this inflated without offering anything of value in exchange?

One of the most important questions for me right now is to decide where I want to live/settle down. I'm an academic so I have quite a lot of mobility (I'm in that moment of your life where you have to settle in a place). This post helped me in that sense. If you have any more info/links on this phenomenon (that you call 'ripoff Britain' :) ), I'd love to hear from it (if it's not too political for this forum).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 19, 2006, 06:10 PM

My advice if you want to find somewhere in the world to settle that has a brilliant environment and a good attitude to life is move to Canada preferably away from the big cities!! My parents live in Ontario and I am always stunned by the people I meet when I go there - open, friendly, straight forward (to the point of being blunt - I guess like Yorkshiremen ;)) and incredibly helpful.

The other place I would really rate is New Zealand - I have had many friends over the years from NZ and always felt jealous when they returned home. One day before I get too physically useless I want to head over there - re-establish old friendships and chuck my self into a gorge on the end of a bit of elastic. Any country whose nation sport if bungee has to be cool !

You might like http://www.rip-off.co.uk/ or check out the links here http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=rip+off+britain&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on June 19, 2006, 11:28 PM

I've visited and worked in Canada over the years and trust me, it's wonderful from coast to coast. I would have stayed, but I didn't have the employment required to stay. Besides, you have to return to the US to set up your citizenship application before returning (with gainful employment, no less). How about Norway?

Also, we've seen the price of everything rise steadily in the US due to our enormous budget deficits and weakening dollar. Pretty sad really, and an obvious indicator we should finally drop the USD as the world monetary unit once and for all. Commercial software seems to have risen anywhere from 20-35% in USD with new releases this year. The weak USDollar also means that my donations in Europe and Japan don't quite cut it.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 20, 2006, 04:35 AM

I'll let someone else Troll for Norway (sorry couldn't resist) ...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Baseman on June 24, 2006, 04:07 AM

Software in South Africa is also very expensive I.E. for us over here...Think about it...I want to purchase for example a product for $400.00 Now multiply it by the current exchange rate of R7.50=R3000.00 not to mention customs and taxes on top of that...Can you imagine if I were to purchase a product from the UK...400.00 pounds=R5200.00...Bear in mind that most software here comes from either U.S.A or the UK...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 24, 2006, 06:21 AM

??? R3000 - R5200 - why is is more expensive in SA? Surely that is the same cost just converted to your currency ??? Or are you saying that pay is so much lower in SA that the cost is disproportionately higher.

That is certainly true in the UK - we pay higher prices because of the $1 = £1 conversion rate that is often applied and US salaries are generally higher than UK salaries, and the cost of living lower. (Though I think Dubya is doing his best to make sure the US cost of living increases to EU proportions from what I have read).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on June 25, 2006, 05:26 AM

That's odd since the Euro typically trades at 25-35% higher than the USDollar. The USDollar is so weak from our deficits that everything we buy now in the US (and abroad) is noticeably higher, including software.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 25, 2006, 05:53 AM

Ah but the UK don't use the Euro ...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Baseman on June 25, 2006, 05:59 AM

??? R3000 - R5200 - why is is more expensive in SA? Surely that is the same cost just converted to your currency ??? Or are you saying that pay is so much lower in SA that the cost is disproportionately higher.

That is certainly true in the UK - we pay higher prices because of the $1 = £1 conversion rate that is often applied and US salaries are generally higher than UK salaries, and the cost of living lower. (Though I think Dubya is doing his best to make sure the US cost of living increases to EU proportions from what I have read).

-Carol Haynes (June 24, 2006, 06:21 AM)

True, that's just the exchange rate, then there is the the mark up in the shops plus sales tax...That's why it's much higher...I see a product advertised in the U.S.A. for $200.00 from the vendor...Over here it is R1500 (Convered into Rands)Plus you pay Shop mark up + tax...which is a lot more than just the Dollar to Rands converted..Remember it's all about  import so it automatically become expensive for us...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 25, 2006, 06:57 AM

To be fair all those things apply in most countries to one extent or another. I have found Canada is particularly efficient at applying import duties (on everything) and then local sales taxes too whereas in the UK you generally don't get stung for import duty on 'gifts' (which can be useful at times) and the tax people can't be bothered applying for taxes on items under £25 - so you generally avoid import duty and VAT on DVDs etc. Software is another matter though - we end up paying $1=£1 (which is up to 40-50% hike) + import duty (~20%) + £6-9 (flat rate charge by delivery depending on who actually delivers it).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on June 25, 2006, 10:43 AM

Don’t Copy That Floppy:
Back in 1992, piracy was rampant. What could possibly stop it? An ad that you would swear was from the 80s? A horrible rap song?
..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837609090332617729

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4837609090332617729)

---

from http://www.gadgetopia.com/

---

I want to reiterate my position:
It's important for us all to support authors+companies financially for their work.  If people simply take what they can, and only pay/contribute when they are forced to - i do believe that we will get what we deserve, which is that only the most agressive, restrictive and paranoid companies will profit.  if we instead endeavor to act morally, and support authors who do good work, both in commercial and free software, we will ensure that they thrive and continue to do good work.  it's important that when we see someone doing good work, we stand up and support them, as best we can.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: app103 on June 25, 2006, 12:41 PM

I want to reiterate my position:
It's important for us all to support authors+companies financially for their work.  If people simply take what they can, and only pay/contribute when they are forced to - i do believe that we will get what we deserve, which is that only the most agressive, restrictive and paranoid companies will profit.  if we instead endeavor to act morally, and support authors who do good work, both in commercial and free software, we will ensure that they thrive and continue to do good work.  it's important that when we see someone doing good work, we stand up and support them, as best we can.

-mouser (June 25, 2006, 10:43 AM)

I agree...but a discussion like this can shed light and offer some food for thought...for both developers and software users.

and relevant to this topic is an old letter that is in the public domain:

An Open Letter to Hobbyists
   William "Bill" Henry Gates III  - 3 Feb 1976




To me, the most critical thing in the hobby market right now is the lack of good software courses, books and software itself.
Without good software and an owner who understands programming, a hobby computer is wasted. Will quality software be
written for the hobby market?

Almost a year ago, Paul Allen and myself, expecting the hobby market to expand, hired Monte Davidoff and developed Altair
BASIC. Though the initial work took only two months, the three of us have spent most of the last year documenting, improving
and adding features to BASIC. Now we have 4K, 8K, EXTENDED, ROM and DISK BASIC. The value of the computer time we
have used exceeds $40,000.

The feedback we have gotten from the hundreds of people who say they are using BASIC has all been positive. Two surprising
things are apparent, however, 1) Most of these "users" never bought BASIC (less than 10% of all Altair owners have bought BASIC),
and 2) The amount of royalties we have received from sales to hobbyists makes the time spent on Altair BASIC worth less than $2
an hour.

Why is this? As the majority of hobbyists must be aware, most of you steal your software. Hardware must be paid for, but software
is something to share. Who cares if the people who worked on it get paid?

Is this fair? One thing you don't do by stealing software is get back at MITS for some problem you may have had. MITS doesn't make
money selling software. The royalty paid to us, the manual, the tape and the overhead make it a break-even operation. One thing you
do do is prevent good software from being written. Who can afford to do professional work for nothing? What hobbyist can put 3-man
years into programming, finding all bugs, documenting his product and distribute for free? The fact is, no one besides us has invested
a lot of money in hobby software. We have written 6800 BASIC, and are writing 8080 APL and 6800 APL, but there is very little incentive
to make this software available to hobbyists. Most directly, the thing you do is theft.

What about the guys who re-sell Altair BASIC, aren't they making money on hobby software? Yes, but those who have been reported
to us may lose in the end. They are the ones who give hobbyists a bad name, and should be kicked out of any club meeting they show
up at.

I would appreciate letters from any one who wants to pay up, or has a suggestion or comment. Just write to me at 1180 Alvarado SE,
#114, Albuquerque, New Mexico, 87108. Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the hobby
market with good software.

Bill Gates

General Partner, Micro-Soft

Seems piracy was rampant back in 1976 too. 

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: jgpaiva on June 26, 2006, 03:12 PM

Eóin just introduced us to a more recent form of a similar superhero,on this thread (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=4143.0).
Here he is...


[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
 (http://www.captaincopyright.ca/)

Actually, although (imo) it's a lame idea because this kind of stuff usually only gets jokes around it and not real atention, it actually is well done, the drawings are not bad at all, and you can vote on how you'd like the next part of the story to go! :D

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Rover on June 26, 2006, 05:07 PM

Sorry for not reading all the way through... has anyone offered this reason?

Software is copied because it's easy.  Free serial number and hack sites abound. 

Why do they crack it?  It's a challenge... they want to be cool...

Does it make sense to the rest of us?  :-\

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 03, 2006, 07:23 PM

It's not about whether the company or author deserves to have his/her/thier software cracked.  They DO NOT.  They deserve money for thier creation no matter how crappy it is, unless it doesn't work.  Even then, they deserve payment for that software, and you deserve the refund.

Software is not cracked, hacked, or keygenned by folks wanting to steal.  It is done by folks wanting the challenge of defeating the protection, or reverse engineering.  The problem is they post it to hidden FTPs or sites, or email it, with the intention of showing it off to peers who feel the same way, not wanting to steal anything, but others who know them and have access set it up and package it for distribution on the Internet. It's not about stealing, it's about the challenge, and the respect for breaking something.

Then of course there are the less than savory characters, desperate to make money or just to be a thug, who sell counterfit software, or distribute these works for money.

The hacking culture is just like the rest of society.  We originals didn't want to cause mischief or steal, we wanted to hack.  To stand up to a challenge, to work something out as a curiosity.  Not a thrill, although a good and successful hack is like that, and once again, NOT FOR MALICIOUS PURPOSES, or to steal, disrupt, harm, or other.  Just the challenge.  Many of us report our findings to the indvidual or company who we successfully hacked, or whose software protection we defeated.  Anonymously of course, but still we report our proof of concept and the software or company is hopefully better for it.

Herein lies another problem, the person or company whom we have given the information to fails to do anything about it, leaving themselves open due to lack of action.  While this is not a reason for people to do malicious acts or steal, it is a contibution to the problem.

No one should use software that has been stolen or hacked.  We should BUY our software, and contribute to those who make what we use.  The distros you find on Usenet (grrrr) torrent sites (GRRRR) and other are just immature and pathetic.  They should not end up there. It has gotten so that kids think it is cool to use, post, and distribute hacked, cracked or keygenned software.  IT ISN'T.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: GHammer on July 04, 2006, 12:21 AM

Living and working China I notice a couple of things.

1- There is NO way to get local money converted to another currency.
2- If you do get a bit of cash converted it is impossible for individuals to send it out.
3- Most have no credit/debit card. "National" banks only are interconnected by province.

What does that mean? Even if Wang Li wants to buy shareware, it is nearly impossible. Are you going to spend hours/days to buy any program?

4- No matter what you hear, the reality is that most Chinese earn about US$200 monthly.
5- People pay for medical care, pay to send the kid to primary, middle, and high school.

What does that mean? Means most Chinese are not able to pay US$100 for any program.Do they buy a computer? Some do, but Internet Cafés are pervasive. But if there is a computer in a home it is there as an investment in their kid.

Some companies have greatly reduced prices here. Kaspersky AV Pro costs 150 RMB (US$18) and can be purchased in several major cities. Windows is slightly less costly here and they have an option to lease/purchase a new computer and the software. Pretty good idea, but still expensive to the average Chinese.

You can't swing a dead cat without hitting sidewalk vendors with any app you can name. The prices on these are usually 8-20 RMB (US$1-2.5) and they work. Do they update? Usually not. Walk into any business in China and look at My Computer-> Properties. Chances are it is registered to Bill Gates...

So, you can either pay high prices and spend lots of time to get a legal (which is different here anyway) version or simply take what is offered and be done with it. Which do you do?

The current ubuntu (6.06) is nicely done and recognized hardware that XP Pro needs drivers provided for. Open Office is ok (sorry not up to Office 2003 and certainly not 2007). One glaring item missing is MSN Messenger. That and QQ are >THE< IM apps in China, and I think MSN is the undisputed leader elsewhere too. No MSN (and here QQ) means people will want to have Windows and if they do it'll be pirated. Yeah, I hear there are workarounds. I've tried aMSN and it is functional but incomplete by a long shot.

Listening to music is nice now days (I last really tried Linux 2 years ago) as long as you stick to MP3 and flac. Most do so no problem.

However, saying that people should use free software does not really address piracy. Ya can't steal free software.

If you use the only method I've seen that works, local pricing, then you are unfair to those who pay higher prices. And I'm not sure that would be sustainable. MS and others can do this by having the West subsidize the developing countries. But it takes REAL money to run MS and I'm not sure that US$50 is going to allow MS to do the research needed.

The main item in these discussions I have a problem with is "Lost revenue". I'll bet dollars to donuts that a pirated copy of an app is not lost revenue. The app would not be bought.

Many claim that they use pirated software as an evaluation tool. In my experience, there is a cost threshold. If you 'evaluate' an inexpensive tool perhaps you'll buy it. If the cost is substantial (to you) you'll continue to 'evaluate' it.

If I had to pay full price for Office, I'd not use it at home. I do pay for XP because it's not worth the hassle to patch to run a pirated version.

Corporate users? Different ballgame. Last place I worked was about 80% illegal though they were a software house themselves. Why? It was easy enough to do, small chance of getting caught, and the money was better used in expanding the business. I think MS has caught on to the methods and will require a license server for corporate users. I think the license server will have to validate with MS periodically.

If you have an app that needs regular, frequent updates (anti-malware for example) a username/password system is hard to beat pirate-wise. But for something like Exchange Server, once it is installed I really don't need to update often, in fact it is hard to convince me to touch a working server.

Provide percieved value and you'll do fine. Make it easy to be legal (availability and purchase) and most will do the right thing. Raise the "pain" of being a legal customer and I'll find an alternative. That includes dongles, complex licensing, and false positives on piracy detection.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 04, 2006, 12:29 AM

All that is moot.  You are at the least stealing, a common petty low thief.  There is no honor in that.  Nothing justifies it at all.  Not only that, but you are not defeating the software, you are relying on other's work.  It is shameful to even think of a justification.  If I were to walk into your home, take your things and use them because I am poor, or it is too hard to go to the store, there is no justfying that.  If I were to use your bank card, there is not justifying that.  It is the same type of wrong, no matter what the excuse.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on July 04, 2006, 03:02 PM

No, it's not the same type of wrong. That's the interesting thing about "intellectual property". "Stealing" it is much different in actual effect than stealing an actual item. Once you steal someone's idea, name, or software product they still have it too. In other words, unlike stealing say a car, you are not depriving anyone of a specific, quantifiable thing. You can argue that theft of a copyable thing like software is equivalent to the value of that software, but that value is arbitrary and only becomes real once someone pays for it, at which time a copy is made (or rather a previously made copy is distributed) - but the software creator still has the software, they haven't given it away and they don't have to consequently make a new one. The reality of being able to copy things to an unlimited degree without taking or destroying the original is very challenging to the traditional idea of ownership and I think that's what is missed in a lot of these considerations.

Software creation involves real work, lots of time input, etc. The same is of course true for any product. But if you build a house, once you've sold it you have to build another one if you want to sell more. With software you can theoretically sell an unlimited amount and still have more to sell. There is nothing else that works that way. Surely that shows a fundamental difference between normal products and software products, and if that's true then is it really reasonable to treat software like every other finite product?

So am I saying it's right to pirate/steal software? No. I would definitely argue however that 1: a pirated copy of software is not the equivalent of a lost sale and thus cannot reasonably be counted directly as lost revenue and 2: our current laws about copyright and property were mostly created before the advent of software and its unique properties so they don't necessarily work exactly right when applied to software and other "things" with unique properties. Insisting that copyright laws created 100 years ago can deal with every new change in the world would be the same as insisting that the lack of traffic laws 100 years ago would work just as well today.

Do you think our ownership and theft laws would be the same if taking something from someone didn't result in them not having it? In other words if you are a jeweler and have made a beautiful diamond broach and I want it but can't afford it so I find a way to make a perfect copy of it, is that really the same as stealing it from you? You still have your broach, and now I have mine. No one has lost anything, except you may claim that my ownership of one equates to a lost sale for you. But is that true? Can that be proven? At the very least it is a different type of stealing, different than that which our laws were designed to handle.

Yes, it is still wrong by the laws of the US and many other countries. But laws too are fluid and subject to interpretation and even revision. I don't think the laws should change to make piracy OK, of course. But I do think that certain aspects of these laws may need to be re-evaluated given the unique nature of software and digital products in general.

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 04, 2006, 03:46 PM

Once again, a justification.  Over and above the laws of man or God, theft is wrong, plain and simple.  There is no justification.  Even if it is done out of desperation, it is still wrong.  Would I steal to save my family's life? Yes, but that does NOT make it right.

Stealing intellectual property is theft.  This is an original idea, owned solely by the creator, if you copy of use it without permission, you are robbing that person of that original idea, and that is theft.  The problem is too many people quibble about interpretations and circumstances.  We need to deal in absolutes here, right and wrong.  Software piracy can be explained, but not justified, and is in no way right.

As I said, if I sit in front of your home, and use your wireless that you pay for, I am stealing, whether it is out of desperation or not.

Back to the topic though, hacking is not a malicious act, it is curiosity, not meant to harm or steal, not mischevious.  Those who distribute what has been defeated are the problem.  Back in the day we hacked and phreaked out of the pure challenge and discovery of it, now kiddies are finding it cool to hack and then distibute software, movies, and so forth.  It is the attitude of the net that this is "l33t" and other ridiculous, immature garbage like that.  Software was once hacked for the challenge, not for the distributon.  Authors and companies were notified of the method and software became better for it, unless or course the company or author did nothing.  People who knew us, our "friends" not in our circles, were the ones releasing our work onto the Internet for others not in our circles, and without our authorisation.  That is how this all got started, the "warez" scene and so forth, and it snowballed into the poor, wannabe cool attitude on the Internet today, the attitude that finds it "l33t" to distibute other's hard work.

When people finally start standing up and saying "this is wrong and not cool" is when piracy will end.  The hacking will continue though.  All the efforts by the RIAA and MPAA and shareware authors, and companies are just drops into an ever increasing black hole.  They will always be defeated and piracy will continue until we ourselves stand up and say it is wrong insted of finding ways to justify it or make it appear that we have reasons.  There is no reason whatsoever that makes piracy right.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on July 04, 2006, 03:53 PM

y0himba: s/hacked/cracked.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on July 04, 2006, 04:10 PM

Is there any difference bewteen a piece of software and ...

... a piece of music - you sing someone's song in public you have to pay 'performance rights' unless it is very old (eg. you need a license if a school wants to perform "West Side Story" in public.)

... a CD/MP3 or a film/DVD ?

... how about patents? Use someone's idea to create your own product and you're in big trouble

... clothes design (yes I know all the designers get their ideas ripped off but is it right?)

... a building - can you copy existing new structures without the original architect's permission? (Probably - I don't know on that one)

... a book that you have memorized ... can you print it as your own? Actually is it OK to photocopy a book in the library from cover to cover. You haven't stolen anything - the original is still there after all, plus it probably cost more to photocopy it than buy a copy!

... a car design - can Ford just clone a Ferarri?

These are all in the same category you describe for software - just intellectual rights - but I'd guess most of them are protected (and have been since copyright and patent law was introduced).

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 04, 2006, 04:15 PM

You are right, all of the above are protected.  It is apathy that allows this to happen.  Music is copyrighted and intellectual property.  CD/Mp3 we all know how the RIAA feels about that.  Patents are protected, thats why they are "patents", clothes desgns are protected, but copied or "knocked off" all the time, a building design is not suppoed to be duplicated, books, plagerism, Ferrari is a tradmark as is thier techical design and so forth, but they are all rampantly copied all the time.  Apathy is almost worse than the crime.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on July 04, 2006, 04:16 PM

Thanks for correcting my spelling of Ferrari ... what do I know ;)

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 04, 2006, 04:18 PM

For all I know, I may have it wrong :)

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on July 04, 2006, 04:49 PM

There are no absolutes. Laws are creations of man and man is fallible.

Stealing is a matter of interpretation. If a nation goes to war with another and takes their land, is that stealing? No, we have invented another word, it's called "conquest". If I take something and nobody notices it's gone and I later claim it as mine, only I know the difference - in the eyes of the world it is mine. Thus the phrase "posession in 9/10th's of the law". Yes, it was stolen, but if that theft is not known, it is irrelevant because the law cannot or will not do anything about it. The same is true if I simply "find" something. If I find a $20 bill on the street with no identifying marks and there is no one around, no way to get it back to its owner, is it stealing to keep it?

Before there was copyright law it was not illegal for me to print someone else's book or sing their song. Was it still wrong then? If you would say yes, is that because it is illegal today, or because you feel it is somehow "intrinsically" wrong? If the former then you presume that all our laws today our "right" and should not be open to interpretation or change and history would argue that you are wrong as laws are always changing and being reinterpreted. If the latter, is it right to expect everyone to agree with you? Not if your neighbor with the the shotgun has anything to do with it. ;)

Laws are essentially the agreed upon standards of a society, but as I've said those standards can change, just as the standards and morals of societies do. Is there any absolute right? Not unless you believe your own word to be the one and only valid one, or if "might makes right". I don't subscribe to either perspective.

When it comes to theft of intellectual property it's even more of a slippery slope and trying to define it in absolute terms is just asking for trouble. What if I have the same idea as you, but I have the money to patent it and you don't. It's now "my" idea, but you had it too. This is clearly just an arbitrary distinction - the only difference between my idea and yours is that I was able to use "the system" to protect my claim on it. It doesn't make it truly my idea any more than it is yours, it is only so in the eyes of the law.

Back in the days before recording technology musicians performed every piece of music live and they were paid for every performance. Along came recording technology and there was a huge uproar and backlash by the performers against it. Ultimately the technology won, as it usually does, but the artists were in some ways right to mistrust the technology - nowadays the majority of payment goes to the distributors (record companies), *not* the producers of the actual copyrighted work (the music). After all nobody is saying that the CD itself is the copyrighted product, are they? There's a separate patent for that. If I rip the CD to MP3, where the bits that compose the audio signal are completely different, it is still a copyrighted work. It is the audio itself that is copyrighted, the words and music too (separately, I believe). Yet this too can be a dangerous definition because in the digital world there are ways to make something completely unlike itself, such that the copying of it should not be illegal - after all it is just 1's and 0's and cannot be independently analyzed to have any resemblance to the original work, even when "played" -  yet it must somehow *become* illegal the moment that thing again becomes liken to the copyrighted work (see below). And then we must ask how exactly we define that copyrighted work. If it is music must we listen to it to determine?

So clearly the trickiest bits are defining what exactly is copyrighted. Let's say I take an e-book and encrypt it with a standard encryption algorithm. It is now completely unrecognizable as the original work. Without the key no one may know its contents and it is effectively *not* the original, copyrighted material. Yet, almost magically, if I use a decrypting program and the right key, I can get back this copyrighted material out of "thin air", in a sense. So then what if I give my friend the encyrpted file, but not the key. Is this copyright violation? He might be able to guess the key or crack it, but then where is the copyrighted information - in the file or the key? Without the other both are meaningless.

Worse still, what if I use a file archiving program to compress and split the file in two. I give one half to one friend, the other have to another friend. By themselves the two halves aren't even halves of a book, they can't be read because they can't be decompressed. Are they still the copyrighted material they originated from? If you were talking about real-world products you would probably say no. If I take a book and rearrange its physical structure so it is in its most compact form possible then cut it in half and give each half to different friends, it's clearly not still a book. My friends can't get together and suddenly have a whole book. Yet somehow this *is* possible in the digital realm.

If my computer were to be siezed and examined for copyright violation the encrypted file would not truly be the e-book, it could not be read as such and if the key is destroyed and I have forgotten it, it is for all intents and purposes *not* the e-book and never will be again. Yet a sophisticated cracker could probably figure out the password and decrypt it. What if you decrypt random data and it creates the Mona Lisa? Highly unlikely, but possible. So then what seems most important is my intent, at least as far as what is provable and considerable to the law. Does this then come down to evaluating intent, and if so how do you prove intent? This has always been a difficult thing to deal with in court.

The possibility even exists for completely random data to be interpreted as text or audio or anything else and there is the further possibility that this interpretation of random data could resemble or even exactly reproduce a copyrighted work. This is not possible in "the real world", at least not by random chance, yet it is fully possible in the digital world. Yes these are tricky arguments, but without an absolute definition of what exactly is copyrighted, and without being able to consistently and accurately distinguish between copyrighted and uncopyrighted work, the law is meaningless since it can't be consistently enforced.

The law, as I've said before, is changeable, it is not an absolute. We did not always have copyright protection or patenting, they are not inherent rights. I would agree that some system needs to be in place to encourage innovaters to innovate and our current system was designed to do that, but let's not confuse that with some intrinsic "righteousness" for the idea of "owning" a concept. There is no such thing except where we have provided that facility, merely as a means to the end of encouraging and rewarding innovation and progress. Ownership is not the end goal, it is merely the means to that end.

I am not making arguments for pirating, rather I am showing that this issue is very difficult precisely because of the lack of absolutes in the equation. The definition of theft itself is not absolute - especially where digital elements are concerned - let alone the laws regarding it, or the items that are being stolen. Don't confuse my intent - I *want* copyright, theft, etc. to be clearly and absolutely defined so that 1: I may safely comply with copyright, etc. without confusion 2: my own copyrighted works may be safely protected without loose interpretation or vaguery. I want to know that I can protect my creations and that any creation I have is truly owned by me legally. With the above discussed uncertanties I don't feel that is truly possible. Most people just take all that for granted, just as they take many, many things in life for granted, but that doesn't mean they are not legitimate issues.

Just a few things to think about. I'm not an anarchist, don't take me too seriously. :D

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on July 04, 2006, 04:59 PM

i really enjoyed that post oshyan.

some more thoughts on my part on different side of this issue:

i do think there is a fundamental difference with the issues involved when talking about digital media that has no inherenent material cost.

it means that if some kid in india who makes $1 a week manages to make a copy of the Adobe Photoshop cd at some internet cafe, and use it on this ibm pc at to teach himself how to use it in hopes of getting a job one day, it's hard for me to see view that as unethical, even though it is against the law.

i understand of course that the real world issues are never this simple, and that this is an extreme example, but my point is that with digital media, some software which is priced at $1000, is not a loss of any real money in these cases.  in fact it has been argued that these scenarios actually benefit the company by increasing market share and thus future orders, while not exerting a drain on support staff.

again, i know things are never this simple - and i'm not sanctioning this.  i'm just saying that i think a differentiation needs to be made between cases where theft has a real negative impact on the author, and digital "theft" which may result in absolutely no loss to the author.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 04, 2006, 05:02 PM

That was a good read.  The base problem is this:  YOU know what you did, YOU know it was wrong, so it is still wrong, very simple.  A crime needs to have malicious intent.  Therefore, you picking up an unidentifiable $20 bill is not a crime. If you right over and spend it without at least allowing for someone to claim it, that may not be a "legal" crime, but it is a moral one, still a crime, and wrong.  If someone posts an ad saying they lost it, yet you leep it or do not repay it, that is a crime.  If you give your friend a copywrited work, it is a crime, period.  Encryption doesn't matter.  If I give you my WindowsXP CD, but no key, it is still a crime.  The point isn't the law here, it is how we govern ourselves, our morality.  It is not a crime to have a website boasting "hot teens" as long as the "teens" in question are of legal age, but is it a moral crime to insinuate youth?  Yes.  It should not be allowed.  

One thing though, my arguments are all wrong.  Why?  Reality itself is interpreted.  These things we call laws, morals, governing guidlines, they are all created by the way we interpret reality.  If someone interprets reality different, does the law apply?  Majority rules.  ;D

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on July 04, 2006, 05:09 PM

i'm compelled to post yet again - it's nice to see this thread getting both more philosophical and also more interesting :)

i am always very skeptical of laws designed by ultra rich corporations in order to protect their interests.  i think for the most part, money drives the law, and lobbying money decides whats legal and what's not legal, so i do not view ethics and legality as the same thing.

i think we would all be very well served by reminding ourselves that actions have consequences.

first things first:

THINK about what you are doing.  don't just put it out of your mind because you don't want to think about your actions, whether it is stealing an apple from the neighborhood market, or making a copy of some sofware.  are your actions ethical? are you acting out of lazyness, greed, principal? do you have alternatives? are you acting in a way you can justify and would feel good if everyone acted the same? put yourself in the other persons shoes, would you be comfortable if someone else was taking the same approach to your work? I'm not saying at the end you will decide it is wrong to copy some software - you might decide it is ok.  I'm just saying - consider the issue rather than pretending it isn't an issue.

after that step, you can move on to think about the law and decide how much that does or does not affect you.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 04, 2006, 05:13 PM

VERY well put.  Instead of coming up with ways to justify what is being done, think about the actual right or wrong of it.  Over and above legalities, is it right or wrong?

Problem:  Who decides right or wrong?  Majority?

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on July 04, 2006, 05:16 PM

i was just asking the individual to consider their own views - leaving aside what your friends, neighbors, and congressmen and ceos think.  i just think it's important for each of us to think for ourselves and try to live a reasonable life being considerate of others.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 04, 2006, 05:21 PM

I agree with you 100% and was adding my own point.

Another point is, even though I am not Christian, the Bible is a very good read and a great set of guidelines to govern ourselves by.  I am NOT turning this into a religious discussion, but if you look at your point, it could be do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I wish we could be trusted to govern ourselves.  There was a time when we could trust those governing us, now we cannot even trust those we employ, we elect to govern.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on July 04, 2006, 05:23 PM

100% agreed with mouser. In the end all of this is subjective. Laws differ from country to country, even state to state or county to county, city to city (any gay couple who has gotten married can attest to that :D). So we we agree that morality is really what it comes down to. But that too is subjective. It's not even a matter of "a few bad seeds" or the "weirdos" - entire cultures have existed that had radically different concepts of ownership from our own. Clearly our concept is not inherently right or moral. Morality is usually derived from the majority but a majority need only be 51% - does that mean that 49% of people are wrong if they disagree? That seems kind of ridiculous too.

So I think we have gotten right back to my main point which is that these issues are not simple. Not nearly as simple as the RIAA, MPAA, BSA, etc. would like us to believe. On the face of it what they're arguing is essentially correct - it is against the law to copy software, music, movies, etc. But since it shows no signs of stopping, despite massive litigation and fines, it seems kind of clear that a lot of people *do* feel it's morally acceptable to do these things. Does that redefine the "majority"? If so, and the majority thinks it's ok to do these things, then are the laws still defined by the majority, or rather instead by the minority power holders?

Lots of interesting questions. I do not claim to have any answers, I just think all this stuff is very worthwhile to think about.

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: Carol Haynes on July 04, 2006, 05:23 PM

Who decides what is right or wrong? You do - you have to live with your conscience ...

Who decides the law - in a democracy you do ...

Slightly ploitical rant ... don't read if you don't like politics

Given that very few of us actually live in a democracy laws are usually decided by the rich and powerful and the rest of us nod at them every few years when we are asked to make cross to decide between two parties with identical policies on most things.

There is a huge difference bewteen legality and what is right.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: mouser on July 04, 2006, 05:24 PM

do unto others as you would have them do unto you

amen.
you don't have to be religious (i'm not) to realize that this is a good way to live and will really help guide you in answering morality questions.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: y0himba on July 04, 2006, 05:26 PM

I vote this as one of the best threads ever.  If all of the software alliances, the RIAA, MPAA and so forth would sit down over a long time and discuss like this, so much could be accomplished.

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: JavaJones on July 04, 2006, 05:30 PM

Hear, hear! Considering how heated this discussion appears to have gotten at times and what a generally controversial subject this is, I think it's remained remarkably topical, civil, and informative.

Do unto others. :)

- Oshyan

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: f0dder on July 05, 2006, 01:06 AM

I vote this as one of the best threads ever.  If all of the software alliances, the RIAA, MPAA and so forth would sit down over a long time and discuss like this, so much could be accomplished.

-y0himba (July 04, 2006, 05:26 PM)

Problem is, they won't. All they care about is maximizing their profits...

Title: Re: Why is so much software cracked?
Post by: zridling on July 05, 2006, 01:10 AM

It seems we've come full circle and you all have so far made this a must-read thread. It appears we have myriad answers to the question "Why is so much software cracked?"

• the challenge of cracking code
• the lack of money needed to register it
• the base thrill of theft, or of simple possession/collection
• the sake of necessity, out of poverty
• the purpose of evaluation
• to get back at "the man," which is today is the corporation (usually Microsoft or Adobe)

and so on. One thing is true is that this is not a black-and-white issue, but one that is gray throughout, and is justified individually. I'd love to hear your specific suggestions to developers. One I'd make is that trial software not be crippled. If you cripple your software (http://www.thegsblog.com/?p=86), you're begging for it to be cracked with every update you compile.