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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: on-disk on January 11, 2006, 06:37 PM

Title: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: on-disk on January 11, 2006, 06:37 PM: I wanted to see what the 'other-guys' were offering when I saw their Free OpenOffice.org discs adverts every time I saw one of mine.

So I pop up to thinkall.com and order my 'free' discs for the $5 shipping fee.

About 30 days later there was a $40 charge on my card.

Buried at point 7 in the TOS is that if you don't return the 'free' discs within 10 days you'll get their monthly subscription fee. And when I returned the discs after the 10 day period they did not refund your money.

Though I'm out the money, at least I can write it off as a business expense on my taxes.

So please avoid Thinkall.com

Karlie "Thinkall's Sucker" Robinson
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Carol Haynes on January 11, 2006, 07:03 PM: Surely this is pure and simple fraud. Contact the police and you credit card company who should refund you.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Veign on January 11, 2006, 08:22 PM: This is something that should be spread around so people know...

Blogging about it now....

Blog Entry (http://www.veign.com/blog/2006/01/thinkallcom-think-again.html)

After further reading their TOS this seems to be a very sketchy thing. You seem to be enrolled in a membership where CD's are sent to you every 5 weeks and credit card charged if not returned in 10days....
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: kimmchii on January 11, 2006, 08:29 PM: i have sent them an email a link to this post, asking them to come over and explain.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: on-disk on January 12, 2006, 06:51 AM: -------- Original Message --------
Subject:    Re: Why did you charge me $39.95
Date:    Mon, 5 Dec 2005 08:46:51 -0500
From:    Think All Publishing Customer Support <[email protected]>
To:    Karlie Robinson <EMAIL_REMOVED>
References:    <@@@@@@>

Dear Karlie,

I see your subscription was canceled on 12/04/2005 01:37:03 PM. You will not
receive any more CDs or charges from Think All Publishing.

I am sorry that you are not happy. When you placed the order, you checked the
box that you agreed to the terms of use. Since you have not canceled during the
trial period and have not returned the CDs, we conveniently charged you credit
card $39.90 per the terms of use you agreed to. If we receive the CDs before
12/12/2005 than we might be able issue you a refund. If you have not already
done so, you can return CDs to:

Return Address:

Think All Publishing LLC
Attn: Returns Dept.
Return #: 1110356
P.O. Box 462009
Garland, TX 75046-2009

You can contact us after 30 days from your order date to see if we have received
your CDs and if we will be able to issue you a refund.

Thank you for trying out our software!

If we can be of further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact us.
Our Customer Service associates are available 24 hours a day, seven days
a week and may be reached at 1.800.462.8144.

I hope that helps.

Have a great day!

Michelle
Think All Publishing Customer Service
1-800-462-8144
---------------------------------
Just go to our main website – www.thinkall.com - and look for the Terms of Use
link at the bottom of the page.

-----------------------

BTW, I did return the discs, but "might be able issue you a refund" means don't hold your breath

[mouser: i removed the email address for reasons described in the thread]
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Veign on January 12, 2006, 10:00 AM: I like the part where they conveniently charged your credit card. It was very convenient for you wasn't it...
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: mouser on January 12, 2006, 10:16 AM: even though this is presumably public information, i'd like for us to refrain from posting other people's email addresses if possible - agreed?
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Veign on January 12, 2006, 10:29 AM: Probably should edit those email addresses out - Spam is a coming...
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Carol Haynes on January 12, 2006, 11:20 AM: I think you should have left them in for their convenience ;)
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: vegas on January 12, 2006, 01:00 PM: lol, exactly what i was thinking. the first one anyways. ;)
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: jim1763 on June 06, 2006, 08:27 PM: hi have been caught with thinkall .com to can you PLEASE tell me how i can stop them from taking any more money from my account .
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: mouser on June 06, 2006, 08:34 PM: jim,
call them and email them immediately to tell them to cancel your account!
Think All Publishing Customer Service
1-800-462-8144
[email protected]
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: f0dder on June 07, 2006, 03:19 AM: Sounds like a very sketchy company. As if most people read those TOS'es. Bastards!
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Deozaan on June 08, 2006, 01:33 AM: I didn't notice this thread until just now (I keep trying to tell you that the Unread Messages link isn't working properly) so I typed all this up and didn't want it to go to waste, so I'm posting anyway.

I just tried it out myself (except for entering in credit card information) and nowhere does it say anything about the subscription. There isn't even a clear and easily visible link to the TOS throughout the ordering process. Where it has the checkbox to say you've agreed, no link to TOS even there. You have to go to the bottom of the page (I have to scroll down at 1280x1024 with a maximized window with minimal toolbars) and click on the TOS.

Very shady practice. >:( >:( >:( :down: :down:

What kind of software is on those CDs? ThinkAll brand? They all have such generic names, and it looks like some of them are freeware anyway, like Thunderbird E-mail, GIMP image editing, and OpenOffice.

Does the Internet BBB actually do anything? Is it worth reporting these guys?

Another interesting thing I noticed is that all of the navigational links at the top of the page do not work on the final page where it asks for your credit card number. They do not want you leaving that page.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Carol Haynes on June 08, 2006, 04:57 AM: Given that they are located in the US have you thought of reporting the situation to credit card companies?

They must allow them to accept credit card orders and will not be happy with this short of sharp practice. You may at least get there credit card ordering system taken down. Similarly with PayPal - it might be worth checking it out.

As you say there are no links working on the credit card page at all (except for hacker safe and the two at the bottom!). I went through the process (except for entering CC details) and wasn't asked to agree to anything other than tick the small box under the credit card details. This is out and out fraud as far as I can see and breaks all the guidelines credit card companies issue on clear pricing.

There is also a plain lie on the final page "We ship UPS" - there is no way they can ship to the UK by UPS for $2.95 (or even a month's 'subscription' fee).

By the way if anyone fancies complaining the details are:

Tel: +1.4252740657
Fax: +1.4256960234
PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1
C/O thinkall.com
Bellevue, WA 98007
US

Maybe we should all send them a fax (that would make them think).
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Deozaan on June 08, 2006, 11:34 PM: I wonder what it would be like to DOS attack a fax machine. Not that I'm suggesting it or anything. . .
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: ljbirns on June 09, 2006, 06:52 PM: The first thing to do is to repudiate the charge with your credit card company.

The credit card company will fight on your behalf andthey will probably not push to hard.

Lew
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: mickeyone on June 15, 2006, 03:58 PM: 1. All of the software that ThinkAll.com offers is essentially freeware and, therefore available for free at various sites! This includes OpenOffice.org which is available at SUN systems.
2. You can foil ThinkAll.com simply by reporting your credit card as stolen to the credit card company.
3. I complained directly to ThinkAll.com by e-mail and, they did back off. Once they are understand that you are aware that they are operating an internet scam by distributing freeware and, then charging a fee, they will probably get cold feet and, relent to your demands.
Regards, Mickeyone
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Veign on June 15, 2006, 04:09 PM: By the way if anyone fancies complaining the details are:

Tel: +1.4252740657
Fax: +1.4256960234
PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1
C/O thinkall.com
Bellevue, WA 98007
US
-Carol Haynes (June 08, 2006, 04:57 AM)

That's not their address, its a proxy address for registering the domain. See my blog post (http://www.veign.com/blog/2006/01/thinkallcom-think-again.html) for all the information about thinkall, including the actual address.

They are out of Plano, TX USA
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: murali on June 26, 2006, 02:55 PM: :down:

I feel so cheated after realizing that I just paid $50 for some free audio editing software. It is common practice to buy stuff from internet, but these guys would cheat by auto enrolling for some crap software . Who wants to go for recursive subscription forking out 50$ for some copied/crappy software. Wonder how these guys are still surviving cheating of consumers and nobody taking any action. They should be ashamed of their business model, afterall the name suggests "thinkall - meaning think before u buy from us". Anyway I have cancelled my so called membership and I would anyway watchout for CD's in mail. It makes so much sense now a days to go to store and buy or buy from reputed ones like amazon.

STAY AWAY FROM THINK ALL for sure
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: jesslambio on July 17, 2006, 05:45 PM: I am the most recent victim of thinkall. :( :down:

i called several times and they also said i can't get a refund for the cds that i did not return in time (that i didn't know i had to return at all). i checked the site again and found out that when you finalize your order you were not prompted to read the terms of service, there was just a tiny box that you needed to check without any link to the terms. so this could easily mislead anyone into checking the box without reading the terms which i also just found out is in number 7 of the terms of use hiding below the web page.

i called my bank and filed a claim. i'm glad i found this forum which might help me to get my money back. (plus i got an overdraft because of it). :(

and one more thing, one of the cds i got, the "animation studio", is blender- a free program you can download from blender.org. and the video editing cd i got is a lame program called virtualdub. >:(

my sister was right, there is no free lunch in america. so don't be deceived into getting this cds. :down:
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Carol Haynes on July 17, 2006, 06:00 PM: Can I recommend that you contact the authors of the software you received from Thinkall.com

Most software (even freeware) explicitly forbids distribution for profit and so Thinkall.com are probably breaking the rights of the authors. By getting software writers to explicitly forbid the distribution by Thinkall.com may be a good way to put them out of 'business'.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: jesslambio on July 17, 2006, 07:04 PM: i couldn't find anyone to contact about blender, but i wrote to a TV station.

here's a copy of the letter:

i want to report about a website called www.thinkall.com, they sell cds and they have a promo where you choose one free cd and you get 3 more free and you only pay for shipping. i thought" this is cool" and so i ordered. i got my cds on June 28th, i think, and just today i received a letter from wells fargo of a charge from thinkall for 49.00 for the cds. my bank didnt have funds at that time so i also got an overdraft. i didnt know what the charge was for until i called thinkall( 1800-462-8144) and they said that the 2 cds were for a 10-day trial and if i didnt return it, the price is 24.95 each. i was thinking, how could that be, so i checked the site again and found out that when you finalize your order, there was a box you needed to check saying " i have read and accept the terms of this offer". it didnt prompt you to read the terms of service before you finalize your order and there was no link to the terms of service. it turns out that the terms of use is found below the page when you scroll down. ok so i made a mistake, but i thought that it was misleading so i did a search and sure enough, i found a forum warning people about thinkall (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=2083.0). it turns out that i was right, a lot of people were mislead by their ordering process.

i also found this review by the better business bureau- http://www.dallas.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=90024470

but what concerns me the most is that when i tried one of the cds, the "animation studio", it was blender, a free program you can download at www.blender.org
another link to it saying its free: http://www.blender.org/cms/General.196.0.html#487

and on their site they claimed that the retail price is 79.00 ( i attached a screen of the page). and on the forum, somebody said that all the other cds they are selling are freeware or crappy programs.

so i think this is just wrong. i don't know if someone is already doing something about it, but i wrote this just in case. i hope that they are stopped if what they are doing is wrong.

thank you and more power

let me know what you think of this letter.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Carol Haynes on July 18, 2006, 05:37 AM: Do you have consumer 'watchdog' type TV programmes in the US? (We do in the UK).

The way to attack this is for everyone to write to the same programme with their complaint - weight of numbers helps to get a response. Perhaps there needs to be a bit of coordination via this site but also get the word out to the freeware forums etc. and usenet groups who are likely to be quite proactive about complaining about this sort of thing.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: mouser on July 18, 2006, 06:56 AM: welcome to the our site jesslambio, kick off your shoes and relax a bit here safe from the scams outside :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: jesslambio on July 18, 2006, 07:51 AM: thank you mouser!

yes Carol Haynes, we have watchdog type TV programs here.

http://www.klastv.com/Global/category.asp?C=21839&nav=menu102_1_2

you can write them and give them more info
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: kimmchii on July 18, 2006, 08:06 AM: jess, go here and File a Complaint:

The Internet Crime Complaint Center (http://www.ic3.gov/) (IC3) is a partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C).
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: jesslambio on July 18, 2006, 08:16 AM: nah, its too meticulous. all i really want to know is how come they are selling free programs and if they have a license to sell these programs.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: jesslambio on July 18, 2006, 01:56 PM: have you guys read this?

http://www.dallas.bbb.org/

http://www.dallas.bbb.org/news_20060630.html
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: JeffK on December 19, 2006, 01:40 PM: I didn't see the above warnings before I was also caught by this scam. And boy didn't they come on all sweetie pie when they responded to my complaint, including the offer of two CD's ($150 value) for nothing and postage free.

I cancelled via their website and now all that is left to do is to carefully consider the words I am going to use when I reply.

Jeff
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Redhat on December 19, 2006, 04:26 PM: The general idea is a scam.

Selling open-source software, isn't.. it's legal - and to be honest - a big part of the GPL that you can redistribute the software..

But IMO Thinkall are scamming, deceiving, lying, tricking dross and should be banned from any kind of directorship indefinitely.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: timonterey on December 27, 2006, 04:24 PM: Thanks Everyone for Posting this info.
I agree that there is no reason to suffer any loss to these cretins.
I had all charges to me reversed, and reported them to the Internet Crime Complaint Center.
-TM
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: sipsake on December 30, 2006, 06:48 PM: Holy Pondscum, Batman!

I just visited their site after reading these posts...what a bunch of vermin.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: mouser on February 27, 2007, 01:34 AM: Someone just sent me this info:

> I just wanted to alert you and others that there is a court
> case against Think All Publishing for ripping off consumers. Am not
> sure if refunds will be available. Please let others know. I think it is through the FRC.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: nite_monkey on February 28, 2007, 01:15 PM: someone try to goto their site, I just went to it, and all I got was the msn search that pops up (school default search engine) sometimes when the page cant be found. I think they finally got shut down.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: JeffK on February 28, 2007, 01:28 PM: Looks like your are right. The US Federal Trade Commission has loned them up.

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2007/01/manay.htm

Not before time IMHO.

The next internet rogues the FTC should get are Registerfly.

Jeff
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: ogladylee on May 29, 2007, 07:35 AM: :huh: This is really strainge. A year ago I too had ordered some CD's from ThinkAll.com. Hmmm! But I never had the same result as the rest of you guys an gals. I was charged only the shipping and handling as I was told I would. I was going to look into if they had anything new when I ran across your little forum. I was truely shocked at the comments made here. I am so sorry that so many have been ripped off by these people. :o :'( :mad:
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 29, 2007, 07:49 AM: Looks like your are right. The US Federal Trade Commission has loned them up.

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2007/01/manay.htm

Not before time IMHO.

The next internet rogues the FTC should get are Registerfly.

Jeff
-JeffK (February 28, 2007, 01:28 PM)

Hey - result ....
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Darwin on May 29, 2007, 08:46 AM: Reading this thread has brought back some bad memories with a silver lining - a lesson learned. I got burned in a similar manner - for a lot more money - by HighBeam (http://www.highbeam.com) research. I was googling for some info relating to my PhD research project and found it at Highbeam. In order to read the article I was encouraged to purchase a full membership or to sign up for a free 7 day trial. I opted for the trial. Part of the sign up process required supplying credit card information, which really should have clued me in, but didn't. Because I use Roboform, this happened automatically and I clicked right through the "Roboform has filled in sensitive information" warning because the sign up blurb gave me some (now forgotten) spiel about why they needed this information to process my trial. I used the service the one time and promptly forgot about it. I guess this occurred right at the end of my credit card's billing cycle because I signed up on March 19 and the trial ended March 26. I wrote to them on April 1 querying the $120 Cdn. charge to my credit card:

I have just noted a $120 Cdn. charge on my credit card from Highbeam
Research. Apparently, my trial period ended five days ago and has been
converted into a full membership account. I received no warning of the
trial period coming to an end and was thus afforded no opportunity to
cancel the membership before it's conversion to a paid account. I also
received no receipt from HighBeam Research, nor an e-mail advising me
that my credit card had been charged.

Their response indicated that I had agreed to the trial reverting to full, paid membership if not cancelled within 7 days by agreeing to the TOS. NB that at no point were the fees stated during the sign up process (One result of this experience is that I now check the price of services and software before signing up for trials!). They would not budge and I didn't pursue the matter as I felt like a real idiot! I received a receipt a week later. Anyway, I took this as a hard lesson well learned about being careful when signing up for ANYTHING on the internet.

Reading this thread this morning prompted me to go take a look at the HighBeam TOS (http://www.highbeam.com/About/TermsAndConditions.hbr) and I note that there is a prominent note about this at the top of the page (the pertinent clause is 2.5). They have the end user agree to the TOS by filling in a radio button indicating that they have read it - it's hyperlinked to the right of the radio button. I am sure that they are operating within the letter of the law, however, I feel that it is shady to offer a trial without EXPLICITLY stating during the sign-up process that the end user has effectively purchased a fully paid membership with a 7 day opt out option.

Again, my fault for agreeing to the TOS without bothering to read it :-[ Needless to say, I no longer agree to anything without at least scanning the TOS for pitfalls like this!
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Veign on May 29, 2007, 10:00 AM: Looks like your are right. The US Federal Trade Commission has loned them up.

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2007/01/manay.htm

Not before time IMHO.

The next internet rogues the FTC should get are Registerfly.

Jeff
-JeffK (February 28, 2007, 01:28 PM)

Hey - result ....
-Carol Haynes (May 29, 2007, 07:49 AM)

Except I have been following and blogging about ThinkAll since the start and it seems that even after the FTC injunction that ThinkAll is still charging credit card accounts. In fact they had gone back online, under their HTTPS connection, for a short time (month or so).

ThinkAll is a very determined company which means they will take their punishment, step back, re-group and come out with another company (scam).
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Carol Haynes on May 29, 2007, 11:08 AM: Reading this thread has brought back some bad memories with a silver lining - a lesson learned. I got burned in a similar manner - for a lot more money - by HighBeam (http://www.highbeam.com) research.
-Darwin (May 29, 2007, 08:46 AM)

Actually they seem to have changed - they always used to be upfront about trials and costs but I see there is no mention of the subscription price on the page where you sign up (by the way they are now charging $199 a year - which seems rather excessive!).

One way round these "free trial but you must tell us your credit card number" schemes is to cancel the trial immediately - most of them still allow the trial period to run - and in the case of Highbeam they have a free basic membership. Another way is to get your credit card details wrong! If you don't want to be too obvious get the expiry date wrong or 'accidentally' transpose two numbers in the card number. That way when they charge you they have to contact you to correct the details!
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Darwin on May 29, 2007, 11:32 AM: Nice pointers, Carol - thanks! It took me over a year to post about it because I was that embarrassed. C'est la vie...

I thought $99.95 was excessive - outrageous, actually. $199 is just plain obscene. I had a full membership for one year and didn't really use it very much. I tried quite hard to get my money's worth, but succeeded only in so far as it was a lesson learned. Their service isn't that bad, actually, just not overly suited to academic research. Quite valuable as a repository of newspaper and magazine articles. My main complaint was that the emphasis is on text rather than graphics, so many interesting articles would be missing the illustrations and tables.

Overall, I just had a bitter taste in my mouth over the money, which was at least 50% my fault anyway.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: tide on July 31, 2007, 01:31 AM: If you don't want to be too obvious get the expiry date wrong or 'accidentally' transpose two numbers in the card number.
-Carol Haynes (May 29, 2007, 11:08 AM)

That won't accomplish anything. Your credit card number will be promptly rejected because it will fail the modular checksum test. And the credit card company will reject an incorrect expiration date as well.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Carol Haynes on July 31, 2007, 03:39 AM: It's worked for me in the past. They aren't supposed to charge your card until the end of the trial. If my card details get rejected before the trial I would be worried.

I have also used this trick where there doesn't seem to be a way to cancel a subscription - just update your card details to invalid values and wait for them to contact you!
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Darwin on July 31, 2007, 10:17 AM: Nice tip Carol, that I missed the first time around. I'll definitely be using it the next time I am faced with something like this.
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: tide on July 31, 2007, 01:44 PM: It's worked for me in the past.
-Carol Haynes (July 31, 2007, 03:39 AM)

That means that they aren't checking your numbers which is good to know. My experience with other companies is that they promptly bounce your credit card if it's an invalid number. (I discovered this by mistyping my number once or twice.)
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: housetier on June 17, 2008, 09:01 AM: I wonder all the victims will get their money now:

The operator of a software company that used automatic memberships to trick people into spending money for free software agreed to pay a $2.1 million settlement to pay them back. Yuri Mintskovsky, owner of Think All Publishing, admitted no wrongdoing in settling with the U.S. Federal Trade Commission.
-http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/63420.html

If there was no wrongdoing, why settle at all?
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: mouser on June 17, 2008, 09:05 AM: Yuri Mintskovsky, owner of Think All Publishing, admitted no wrongdoing in settling with the U.S. Federal Trade Commission.

Welcome to the insane world of legal responsibility and settlements. It seems incredibly common for everyone in the legal world to reach monetary settlements which involve no one ever admitting fault, and everyone agreeing to not discuss the terms of the settlement, etc. To me it sounds a lot like "we will pay you more if we can all agree to pretend we never did anything wrong".
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: mwb1100 on June 17, 2008, 12:06 PM: To me it sounds a lot like "we will pay you more if we can all agree to pretend we never did anything wrong".
-mouser (June 17, 2008, 09:05 AM)

I think it's more because such an admission would open them to potentially more liability (maybe even criminal). And if the 'disclaimer' were not part of the settlement, the settlement itself could be used as implicating evidence. I think the worth of those disclaimers in terms or PR is pretty much zero. They are strictly a legal necessity (for want of a better word).
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: Veign on July 01, 2008, 01:30 PM: Update on what happened to ThinkAll:
http://www.veign.com/blog/2008/06/thinkall-cd-earth-must-pay-22-million.html

Justice!
Title: Re: A Warning about Thinkall.com
Post by: JeffK on February 05, 2009, 09:06 PM: I received a cheque on 20th January 2009 (that's check in greenback language) from the USA FTC for $US21.87 being "your share of the money that the FTC was able to collect".

Jeff