DonationCoder.com Forum
Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: superboyac on October 01, 2009, 02:13 AM
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I'm beginning to see that there is something inherently wrong with the Windows OS. It's not just specific things about XP, or Vista, or even Win 7 (which I haven't tried yet). It's about issues with Windows that are not getting solved, and I don't think will get solved anytime soon. By the way, I am speaking from a application/user standpoint, not about specifics and technical stuff. I know there are several other threads talking about the under-the-hood improvements of Windows 7 and stuff. That's not what this is about. This is about something bigger, something more general.
Now, what started this for me is the following: I built my computer in January (you can see the thread here (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=16186.0)). For all practical purposes, this computer is a beast. There should be nothing that it can't do that I would want to do. I'm talking about music applications, office applications, and a bunch of little software here and there. Actually, it is way overkill for anything like that. Speed and performance should not be an issue. Ever. Don't even try to tell me otherwise. Yesterday, I started using Photoshop on my computer. I made a big file, like 4000x4000 pixels. Still, my computer should handle it easily. I started doing stuff, and there was a noticeable lag on it, like a ghosting effect when things were dragged around. Forget about that, that's not the point. The point is that I should not be experiencing any sort of performance issue doing that on my computer. It was somewhat solved with an update. Again, that's not the point. I can think of several other things that are related to performance and speed issues that leave me wondering because I know for sure that my computer technically has the power to handle it and 100x more.
I talked to a guy at work today about Photoshop. Photoshop runs much more flawlessly on the Mac and that's what everyone uses there. Now, i know some of you are thinking we can get it working fine on a PC. But that's not the point either. Over the years, I've had to spend a lot of time and energy becoming a Windows expert so that I can fix all these problems. Well, the truth is that the commercials are right. Macs just work. Believe me, I'm the most die-hard PC guy there can be. I love my little programs here. You guys know this if you've read anything I've put here. I'm hardcore. I can't live without my Windows programs. But I'm growing up, I'm changing, I'm doing different things with my life.
Now here is what I've noticed recently. And please, I want to emphasize again that this is not a technical discussion, but more of a sociological one:
When Windows came out with Vista, it was a disaster. Things started changing. The Mac started to surge. I don't mean things you read in articles, I mean I've seen this in my personal life. I've seen more than a handful of my friends and family switch from PC to MAC in the last year. And they are very happy about it. Guess what? All the young, student age workers that I know got Mac laptops in the past year. Why? They look good, they work without fussing around with it, and everything that it does is COOL. We make fun of those things because we here are very practical minded geeks, but even I have to admit that everything the Macs do are really, really cool. I was actually very impressed by their new touchpads, with their large size and awesome multi-finger features. Why didn't PC's come up with anything like that for years and years? In fact, Dell's touchpad has gotten progressively worse as the years have gone by. Anyway, all the kids have Macs and they're using them in their classes and lives. Guess what is going to happen? They are going to get jobs, and they are going to want to use Macs. Companies may resist for a while, but the demand will build. Then, the workplace (which is monopolized by Windows right now) will start shifting to Mac. Once that market gets big enough, Windows will be in real trouble. That's their bread and butter--the workplace.
A PC is such a pain in the ass to use and get it running smoothly. Very few people have the ability, patience, and willpower to do it. We're not the norm here. Someone like me who knows so much about using Windows is very, very rare in my workplace and industry. The problem is that if you're not like me or us here, you WILL run into issues with the PC. Constantly. Our graphics department told me they could not use PC's for what they do (all that video, photo editing) unless they had an IT guy camped right in the middle of their offices. That's how much of a pain it is. One guy told me that he was even more die-hard PC user than I am and he switched over to Mac and never looked back. In fact, his wife will attest that his LIFE dramatically changed when he switched to Macs. This is no exaggeration. This guy does video, audio, photo editing day and night. He lives in it. At some point, you just have to throw the towel in.
Let's talk about those IT guys, if it weren't for all the Windows issues, I bet we would need them only half as much. I don't mean managing the servers and all that behind the scenes stuff. I mean helping all the people who run into a little issue here and there. More often that not, they place an undue amount of restrictions on our PC's because they just don't want to deal with everyone's problems anymore, and they say it's for security reasons. But that's not really the solution. The problem is that Windows runs into problems way too easily and way too often.
I'm not saying I'm switching to Macs right now. But I feel it coming. How much longer do I want to keep tweaking my PC and keeping up with all the options and little solutions to the dozens of programs that I like to use? I love it on one hand, but it's a lot of effort and time on the other. What if I don't quite love it so much anymore? What if I don't have as much time for it? I'm already sick of having to fix all my family and friends' problems. Actually, I've stopped offering my help for the most part the last few years. I just do it in real emergencies (or if I like a girl, ha!). My dad is afraid to do anything remotely adventurous on his laptop because he doesn't want to annoy me by calling me for computer help. So he has this real nice laptop and all he does is use Outlook, Word, Excel, and browse the internet. He will literally not do anything else. It's sad. And all because he's run into a few little issues here and there in the past, and I've had to fix it by spending a few minutes on it. There are a lot of people like that. Mac users are not like that. They are quite content in a very non-PC user kind of way.
So that's it. I think the Mac wave is coming. Vista sucked. The young people switched to Macs. These people will eventually influence the workplace. Slowly, the workplace will start using Macs. Windows may start dying slowly.
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I can't talk for someone who has moved to mac. However, I have moved to Ubuntu last year, and at the time I thought it was great.
Actually, I thought it was great just until I installed 7 in my laptop.
When I tried it, I really regretted that I had moved to Ubuntu. Unfortunately, it's too late to go back right now.
7 may be coming just a bit too late, but I think it'll be a really good way of keeping people from going mac.
However, I may really soon switch to mac at my workplace, for 2 reasons: easy to inter-operate with linux, and WAY better than windows for my line of work (programming/constantly working on Unix servers, etc) - it's still worse than Ubuntu for working, but ubuntu really gets on my nerves too often than I'd like it to.
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Ah yes, "macs just work" - until they don't, and then you're screwed. Like, something as simple as doing a backup to an external devices freezes the machine completely (so much for OS X being stable) - your only option is hardbooting, at which point the mac refuses to boot. After going into safe mode, it decides that wiping your entire filesystem is a good idea.
I think it would be fun if OS X got a lot more marketshare, though. With enough power users on the system, things would start breaking at least as much as it does on Windows, hopefully shutting some of the mac fagnbois up. Oh, and with enough marketshare, it would be a lot more interesting to write malware for the platform, and utilize some of those wonderful kernel and userland flaws that OS X has - that might finally shut up some of the "OS X is so much more safe than Windows" cluetards :)
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Being COOL is not high on my list of priorities. :)
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re photoshop:
could it be a software issue? - what with Photoshop being sold to so many amatuer photographers (I suspect they're it's biggest market these days) you'd think Adobe would make it work properly on windows machines.
it certainly used to be true that graphics software was designed for the mac (and vice-versa maybe?*) with windows versions being more of an afterthought.
* graphics apps used work on macs with much lower specs than were necessary on windows machines - but I think that's all in the past now.. unfortunately though, I suspect they still often treat windows versions as second class apps
And then there's the CONTROL that macs have on the hardware aspect of things - there's pros & cons there.
I think a problem with custom built compared to macs (or any quality pre-made machine) is that the mix of parts arent tested on any scale in the custom computer...
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Oddly, moving to Vista is what provided me with the kind of experience you are describing for people who moved to OSX - I more or less just use my computer now and don't worry about all of the tweaking that I used to do to 3.11, 95, 98SE, 2000 and XP. I'm looking forward to giving Windows 7 a whirl because if it is half as much an improvement over Vista as it is touted as being, it will be a killer. Vista proved to be that big an improvement over XP for me.
PS my parents plague me with their issues with OSX...
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This is a weird topic. People moving from Windows to OSX and liking it seems so overstated nowadays I expected this to be a topic of someone moving from Mac back to Windows because of all the price nuances/limitations/troubleshooting and the constant need to buy Apple products.
Btw ironically enough, I feel that Linux's time is coming. Linux Mint is coming around well. Few screw-ups whenever Ubuntu changes directions but so far the day of the copy-paste distroes for newbs seems to be getting slimmer and slimmer.
Photoshop is also starting to be less necessary. There may be a time that the confusing interface of GIMP could be dropped in favor of combinations of applications. Manga Studio for example is bad at colors but can handle more layers than Photoshop. Corel Painter, much easier interface for newbies to grasp I think. Paint.net much lighter than Photoshop. Toon Boom much suited for motion comics based on what I've seen.
Note that I'm not even a newbie to Photoshop and I don't understand it but from what I've read, Photoshop is becoming less and less an app for hobbyist except for the multitude of tutorials it supports.
If an art following can even touch the Linux community, there may be someone with the guts to rip out the guts from GIMP and provide it as separate complementary apps akin to a suite. That alone combined with an improving Linux could be a god send. Hell, the lack of games could even be perceived as a productivity bonus.
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Hey, hey, your computer was built to handle minor photo editing (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=16186.msg142472#msg142472), so don't complain about slowness when you're trying to edit huge pictures :P
Graphics are slow to handle by nature. Whether is a Mac or a PC. Now, if you tell me you are using a pre-CS4 version of Photoshop, and the guy you talked with is using CS4, there you have your explanation as CS4 uses GPU acceleration while CS3 and earlier have to rely on the CPU. And the difference GPU acceleration can make is HUGE, you just have to check picture browsing with XnView or IrfanView vs. doing it with FastPictureViewer.
In the case both computers are using the same version, I would pinpoint problems with your installation as the culprit more than differences in how both OS operate. Which would mean I somehow agree with you on the problems with Windows :D
A PC is such a pain in the ass to use and get it running smoothly. Very few people have the ability, patience, and willpower to do it. We're not the norm here.
-superboyac
Is it? How so? Installing Windows and the software I use doesn't seem that painful to me. Configuring it is another story, but that's a chore here, there and everywhere.
Someone like me who knows so much about using Windows is very, very rare in my workplace and industry. The problem is that if you're not like me or us here, you WILL run into issues with the PC. Constantly.
And that's because people don't listen and do whatever they want in the computer, and then shit happens. And when it happens they blame Windows, instead of putting the blame on themselves. I know it's a tired cliché, but it's the truth. OS X gets a free ride because of so little malware targeting it and significantly more obscure tweaking options, but like f0dder says it's a just a matter of time for OS X to reach critical mass (in the USA, though), and problems to pop up everywhere.
Oh, and frankly, I run into many more issues in my PC due to my own actions than because of Windows' own operations. Mostly it's because of my old habits of micromanaging the system, something that was necessary with limited computing resources and a more crash-prone OS, but useless with XP. I'm not even talking about Windows 7, which will hopefully kill these old habits.
My dad is afraid to do anything remotely adventurous on his laptop because he doesn't want to annoy me by calling me for computer help.
How you define "adventurous" in this context?
Mac users are not like that. They are quite content in a very non-PC user kind of way.
So there's a PC way and a Mac way to be content, and you tell me they're completely different? And can you be content if you use a Mac laptop and a desktop PC, like a friend of mine does? Sorry if all of this bothers you in any way, but I'm kinda interested in your assertion, and I'd like you to explain it.
So that's it. I think the Mac wave is coming. Vista sucked. The young people switched to Macs. These people will eventually influence the workplace. Slowly, the workplace will start using Macs. Windows may start dying slowly.
Damn, I missed the train. I skipped Vista, and didn't switch to the Mac (I'm still young, right?). To be fair, the newest MacBooks are damn good pieces of hardware, but I can't get myself to blow more than 1000 € in a laptop when those sexy ultraportables are starting to fill the shops.
Being COOL is not high on my list of priorities. :)
-mrainey
Well, well, it would be the first in my list of priorities if having a Mac helped with summer heat. /hides
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superboyac, lots of good replies before mine, but I hope you manage to make it through them all and read this one.
Think very hard about what you are wanting to do. Every computing platform has its troubles and the Mac is no different. You will be trading one set of problems for another. Usually, the enthusiasm levels of Mac users is so great that the problems OS X has get lost in the hub-bub of all the cheerleading going on.
Yes, video and photo editing are a great experience on the Mac. It should be as the Mac has always been the tool used by video & photo editors since way back when the Mac first came out. There's been a lot of innovation in this area & the best programs in this area usually come out on the Mac first and then later on the PC if at all. And this brings me to Adobe. Historically, PhotoShop has been coded and released on the Mac first and then ported for release on the PC. I think this last version of PhotoShop was the first to ever release on the PC first, but there's still a lot of ported coded in there slowing things down.
Once you leave this area of software development for the Mac the landscape changes a lot. Where there was a wealth of software choices in the video and photo editing areas there's a decided dearth of choices in a lot of different areas (but not all). There's a lot of software I use (Total Commander, mp3tag, Newsbin Pro, AnyDVD, foobar2000, and others) that have forums full of messages from Mac users pleading for a port of that program as nothing on the Mac platform is as powerful & easy to use or in the case of AnyDVD, doesn't exist at all on the Mac platform.
Now let's talk about the OS for a bit. OS X is slow. It's not lumbering slow, but it is slower than any version of Windows on the same hardware, including Vista. Yes, even the Microsoft OS that everyone mocks for its slow speed is faster than OS X. Mac users will tell you that it's not a race and that they don't need blazing speed for the tasks they do because it's all about the user experience and not about the speed in which tasks are accomplished, but I have a hunch that if you spent most of your OP discussing how you like things being slow that the Mac users' reason for the slowness of OS X is going to carry much weight with you.
OS X is not perfect and I don't know if they have fixed this 'feature' or not, but I just found this out and I was shocked. As recently as Leopard (don't know if it was fixed in Snow Leopard or not, but I haven't heard that it was, so....) if you moved a directory named, say....Bob that was on Hard Drive A to Hard Drive B and that drive also had a directory of the same name OS X replaces Hard Drive B's Bob and all its contents with Hard Drive A's Bob and all that's contents. Yep...that's right. You just lost data. Where Windows will happily merge the two directories and ask you when there's a filename conflict OS X assumes you want to replace the directory and its contents. There are other fun 'features' of OS X besides this one that you have to discover on your own because Mac users are too busy extolling the virtues of their OS over Windows.
Finally, let's talk about computer trouble. Every OS crashes & I have seen some spectacular crashes on Windows, Linux, and even OS X. With Windows you can check the registry, uninstall programs, repair the OS, reinstall the OS, and if there's a hardware problem run to the store and buy what you need. With OS X, you can uninstall programs, repair the OS, reinstall the OS, or take it to a service center. There aren't many user-serviceable parts on a Mac. They are almost like an appliance.
Just do your research, but don't buy a Mac because of what Mac users tell you. It's been my experience they never talk about a bug or problem with Macs or OSX until after it's been fixed. It happened with the move to the Intel platform. It happened when the Macs finally got pre-emptive multi-tasking. And it's happened countless other times.
If after you do all your research you still decide a Mac is for you. Buy one and make the most of it. Enjoy it to the fullest.
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Just do your research, but don't buy a Mac because of what Mac users tell you. It's been my experience they never talk about a bug or problem with Macs or OSX until after it's been fixed. It happened with the move to the Intel platform. It happened when the Macs finally got pre-emptive multi-tasking. And it's happened countless other times.
-Innuendo
That it's something I completely agree with. Wise words, indeed.
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So many well thought out replies. Sorry if I don't get to all of them!
Innuendo, there's no change coming any time soon...like in the next 5 years. I just built my PC, I'm going to go down with the ship if anything. I also realize that much of the hoopla around both Vista, Macs, and even Windows7 is extremist hype. The truth is always more complicated and somewhere in the middle. I know that. And I will always want to get down and dirty with the geekiness before commiting to any kind of computer equipment and software. After all, that's what brought me here to DC and it's something we all share. But we are the minority. And whenever we talk about, "oh, this is better, and that is not so good. And this is why..." we should take a step back and be aware that most people are not in our shoes and they never will be. So if something "just works" or even if they just BELIEVE that something just works, well, that's what they are going to get. And we can't ignore that.
Of course macs have their fair share of issues. Also, I'm sure that if there were as many Mac users as PC users, their issues would increase exponentially and they might actually be in the same situation that Windows is in. It's a complex issue. But I have seen in the past year or two that Macs have really made some strong strides forward as Windows failed miserably with Vista. To me, it's very interesting to see how the whole story will play out. In the meantime, I'll be using my PC. I can't give up my favorite software applications just yet or anytime in the near future. But in 10 years? i don't know. I guess for me, the question is really this: will I someday give up this need to figure out and tweak every little aspect of my computer experience? If i do indeed give it up, my choice in computers will change. But that is so far away, so who knows what my preference will be then?
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Just do your research, but don't buy a Mac because of what Mac users tell you. It's been my experience they never talk about a bug or problem with Macs or OSX until after it's been fixed. It happened with the move to the Intel platform. It happened when the Macs finally got pre-emptive multi-tasking. And it's happened countless other times.
-Innuendo
That it's something I completely agree with. Wise words, indeed.
-Lashiec
There's another thing...what if I don't want to do research? What will I pick then? That's what a lot of people are doing.
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Just do your research, but don't buy a Mac because of what Mac users tell you. It's been my experience they never talk about a bug or problem with Macs or OSX until after it's been fixed. It happened with the move to the Intel platform. It happened when the Macs finally got pre-emptive multi-tasking. And it's happened countless other times.
-Innuendo
That it's something I completely agree with. Wise words, indeed.
-Lashiec
There's another thing...what if I don't want to do research? What will I pick then? That's what a lot of people are doing.
-superboyac
That's kind of an easy question to answer. Most people would choose/forced to use/settle on Windows and that's why they have the largest marketshare.
I think it's impossible to do no research. Even being prettified by OSX or preferring a Mac because of a bad experience with Windows is still some form of research.
Edit: Hell, even making a thread here is some form of research. :P
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just saying, i was impressed with linux Mint too (as said Paul) - maybe that's the future - well, far future.
loved xp, found vista nice too (zero problems with it so far), no rush for win 7 but i know it'll be fun when i get it.
as for mac, i hope that isn't the future.
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as for mac, i hope that isn't the future.
-nudone
Same here - they have much nastier lock-in than MS, and given the opportunity they'd build an even nastier monopoly. Not to mention that Apple kinda is Steve Jobs - what happens when he buys the farmhouse? (going to happen sooner rather than later, cancer and all).
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There's another thing...what if I don't want to do research? What will I pick then? That's what a lot of people are doing.-superboyac
That's a very good question & I have a very good answer for you. This "lot of people" who are picking Macs because of what the commercials are telling them because they are easier to use and more secure than "PCs" are going to to encounter some harsh realities that no one told them about I didn't touch on in my original post:
1) OS X while shiny, easy to use, and easy to learn is not nearly as customizable as a Windows machine. Part of what makes a Mac so easy to use and learn is the user interface that is universally the same (with minor differences) no matter what Mac you use. Some would say this is because Steve Jobs is a control freak and that he wants Mac users to work the way he wants them to. My guess is that the OS X programmers just want everything to be standardized for the most part so that if you know how to use one Mac you know how to use them all.
2) These people are going to either run into their friends raving about the newest game available or their kids are going to be begging to be bought the latest game their friends are playing. In either case, there's only one sad, disappointing outcome. The vast majority of games are not playable on a Mac.
3) These people are buying Macs on the premise that they are more secure and unfortunately, they are not. Security web sites that document such things have revealed that OS X has had several times security issues than Vista has had in the last two years & while MS has patched every one on the Windows side most on the OS X side remain unpatched with no word from Apple when they will be.
4) Those who are switching from PCs who are used to be able to buy a new case, PSU, or video card on a whim whether it to be an old unwanted or outdated component or because a component died on them will be in for a rude awakening. There are no third-party cases. Your Mac is going to look the same as everyone elses. Forever. There's no running out and buying any video card you want, either. Very few video cards have OS X drivers & even if the card is supported one has to buy a special Mac version of the card that has a Mac-aware BIOS on the video card. Need another PSU? Off you go to an Apple Store or ship it off to Apple for who knows how many weeks?
Switching from a PC to an Apple is switching from a very open, diverse architecture where any choice is possible to a very closed, narrow architecture where most of your choices, if any, are dictated to you.
This is not a slam towards Macs and don't let this dissuade you from getting one if that's what you really want to do, but living in the land of Mac is a very different world than living in the land of PC and you will lose a lot of your freedom that I'm sure a lot of us take for granted if you make the move.
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Macintosh? I was an early adopter:first a MacPlus, later an SE/30.
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I've read all six volumes of Inside Macintosh. I've 'whined & dined' with Apple hipsters. I've attended Apple conferences. And I have used Macintosh computers with varying degrees of pleasure over the years.
But in the end - the Macintosh computer is still just another piece of technology. Something to learn; something to use; and something else to scrap when the time comes.
Maybe I'm just not that sophisticated, but I have yet to find anything I want, or need to do, that I can't also do on a Windows or NIX based PC.
Macs may be nice. But they're not essential.
At least not in my world. ;D
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They look good, they work without fussing around with it, and everything that it does is COOL. -superboyac
Yes they do look good. But they don't always work without fussing around with them. I work in a K-12 school and we do have a few Intel Macbooks in our high school. One of the main reasons we got them were they would always "just work". Not true. We were told they would just work when you hooked up a projector to them... out of the box work. Nah, you have turn the "mirror" setting on under display preferences. And sometimes it loses that setting too.
The main apps we use on it are Indesign and Photoshop for our yearbook classes. I don't believe they are any faster than using it on their windows machines but they have an older version so am not comparing apples to apples. :P
I believe the pc world has made great strides to close the gap in graphic applications over the last few years. But unfortunately those who are mac people will refuse to admit it. Just like saying you cannot run a mac os on a windows machine. Not true either.
I know some who seem to think those iLife applications are free on a mac but in reality you pay for them.
And just when you thought that Apple gave education a break on software pricing, read thisabout their new program:
I just got a letter stating that Apple has a new Apple Education Licensing Program (AELP) that has replaced the previous Apple Maintenance Program (AMP) and Volume Licensing Programs.
Here is a link to the new program and cost of products under this program. new program (http://www.apple.com/education/licensingprogram/)
For the past couple of releases of iWork and iLife we've been able to get a school building site license for $250 per software title for up to 500 seats. It appears now that you won't be able to do this individually per software title anymore, but you are required to get these together with the OS for what they call Mac Software Collection. For 500 seats under the new program, it has a list price of $14,999 for 500 seats. Also if I am reading this correctly, this is $14,999 per year to stay current!
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Also if I am reading this correctly, this is $14,999 per year to stay current!
Sounds like a bargain - they could have charged $15,000!
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Also if I am reading this correctly, this is $14,999 per year to stay current!
Sounds like a bargain - they could have charged $15,000!
-mrainey
AND you're escaping the clutches of evil monopolistic Microsoft and their insane overbloated prices!
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You have to wonder if Apple didn't hire some ex-Microsoft employee in charge of pricing! :o
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You have to wonder if Apple didn't hire some ex-Microsoft employee in charge of pricing! :o
-techidave
I thinks it's the other way around. If anything, Microsoft could learn something about the psychology of pricing from Steve jobs.
I don't think Microsoft has (or ever had) the kahunas to charge the prices Apple gets away with. Mainly because Microsoft can't get away with it. Every time Microsoft announces the price tag on anything there's a huge amount pushback. From everybody: the users, the press - and lately - national governments!
Apple users, on the other hand, seem to take an almost perverse pride in how much Macintosh hardware and software costs. They're much like the owners of those exotic sports cars you see on Top Gear.
I know a guy that just dropped something like $500 to get a xenon headlight (as in just the bulb!!!) replaced on his high-end BMW. Far from being outraged, he accepted it with a smile. He could afford it. And that separated him from the rest of the crowd.
Apple users tend to think a lot like that.
Like the slogan says: Think Different.
And always carry American Express in your wallet! ;D:P
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[superboyac]: I'm beginning to see that there is something inherently wrong with the Windows OS...
It eats all the hardware you can throw at it, and netbooks crawl on it; Win7 is no different in my own house. Frankly, I could no longer afford to keep up in the pre-cloud days. (I'm not a Photoshop user. After version 6 when I could no longer print money, I quit.)
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[superboyac]: Photoshop runs much more flawlessly on the Mac.
I dare say that the Mac was built solely for this program. ha! But ask yourself: will it run Wolfenstein 3D?
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[superboyac]: Over the years, I've had to spend a lot of time and energy becoming a Windows expert so that I can fix all these problems. But I'm growing up, I'm changing, I'm doing different things with my life.
My computer life took a new direction a while back and I also grew tired simply keeping up with Microsoft's turns and twists, primarily with document formats. I could no longer afford to chase them version after version within their proprietary format. Then came ODF.
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[superboyac]: I've seen more than a handful of my friends and family switch from PC to MAC in the last year. And they are very happy about it.
I've seen two of the smartest [Windows] programmer birds I've known over the past 25 years switch to Mac. You could knock me over with a feather when they showed me their new machines. Neither has returned to Windows. They absolutely love it and did not regret the decision. When they run into a problem, Apple support has helped every time without fail (and they brag about that, too).
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[superboyac]: Anyway, all the kids have Macs and they're using them in their classes and lives. Guess what is going to happen? They are going to get jobs, and they are going to want to use Macs.
That won't happen as long as Apple pricing stays high. IT budgets are seen as money pits by most CFOs. You might bring your own Mac to work, but it's unlikely they'd let you. Depends on the work, of course.
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[superboyac]: A PC is such a pain in the ass to use and get it running smoothly. Very few people have the ability, patience, and willpower to do it. We're not the norm here. The problem is that if you're not like me or us here, you WILL run into issues with the PC. Constantly.
True to my experience. It's the setup time that is daunting with Windows; viz., because I like to customize the crap out of it and of every app. From installation DVD to loading my data and a few other application tweaks, it takes me about 90 minutes to fully setup my Linux machine. The installation alone takes about six minutes.
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[superboyac]: How much longer do I want to keep tweaking my PC and keeping up with all the options and little solutions to the dozens of programs that I like to use? I love it on one hand, but it's a lot of effort and time on the other.
Among other reasons, this led me to try Linux (openSUSE, Mint, Fedora) for a full year before finally making the switch for good. The same former Windows machine was suddenly twice as fast, I got my choice of new filesystems to install, software installation and updates were stupid-safe and easy, and with virtualization, I could still open a Windows session if I needed it. The OS was free and I could build any custom PC I wanted. The only hardware I checked beforehand was the videocard drivers. Perhaps most noticeable at first is boot times.
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[superboyac]: I'm already sick of having to fix all my family and friends' problems. My dad is afraid to do anything remotely adventurous on his laptop; all he does is use Outlook, Word, Excel, and browse the internet. He will literally not do anything else. It's sad.
That is sad. But be honest: how adventurous would Dad be otherwise? It's not like he's a Wolfenstein 3D kung fu master.
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[superboyac]: So that's it. I think the Mac wave is coming. Vista sucked. The young people switched to Macs. These people will eventually influence the workplace. Slowly, the workplace will start using Macs. Windows may start dying slowly.
That wave's already arrived -- Apple's had a great decade (something to do with that whole iPod/iPhone gadgetry)! But the future is soon upon us: it's the browser, not so much the OS. A proprietary OS like Windows will restrict you in various ways. A proprietary system like Apple will restrict you in every way. I chose Linux as my OS in part because its virtualization (virtualbox; vmware server) and graphical abilities through KDE4, and now that I spend most of my computer time in the cloud, the days of building superfast PCs aren't necessary. Everything I have in the cloud is backed up in four different places. My biggest hurdle when leaving Windows was leaving behind AutoHotkey. That's the only program I missed for a while. Everything else has been a joy.
So good luck if/when you do go Mac, superboy. You'll enjoy it, but if you wait five years, you're going to be missing a lot. Once you leave Windows, you'll soon see that it isn't good enough to lure you back. Of the three big OSes, it's the last choice of those who have tried all three. (For each one's own reasons.)
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In regards to freezes post XP and post 8.6 there is no difference in my opinion. I would venture to say Windows is actually better because the Windows machines I have played with have gone through much more abuse (downloads and uninstalls, system level tweaks) than the Mac ones.
Mac has silly marketing talk, like 'Designed by Apple in California' and this manages to work. I mean a phrase like that is near proof that you are buying it for "design" because obviously the processor and like have nothing to with that phrase.
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Sorry if this comes off as spammy.
I just find it ironic that Apple can get away with this strategy even after they have hit it big with the Ipods and the Iphone:
Rule 6: Rare Doesn’t Always Mean Valuable
This principle states that the harder something is to acquire, the greater the value we place on its attainment. In
essence, we want what we can’t have and want what is hard to obtain even more. The key to avoid this rule being
used on you is to ask yourself this question: would I still want it if there were a million just like it and no one wanted
any of them?
...and turn some of it's followers into this:
Rule 7: I’m on Your Side
This technique is used to gain credibility. When used effectively, you would swear that you’ve just made a new best
friend who has your best interest at heart. For example, let’s say that you’re in a mattress store and considering
buying the Super Deluxe – a top-of-the-line bed. The salesman tells you that if you want it he’ll order it for you, but
he feels you should know something first. He tells you that while the consumer would never realize it, this
manufacturer uses recycled materials on the inside. He has thus gained your complete confidence. He’s risking a
sale to tell you something that you’d never find out otherwise. Now you’ll be inclined to trust anything he says
I know it's nothing new and it looks like I'm just kicking the Mac while it's down but I just find it ironic that no matter how compact a trick can be defined and (no matter how obvious it is), there's just no substituting what works especially if you're the company who can make it work.
Also, it's because I just recently chanced upon this article (Mixx link (http://www.mixx.com/stories/8372030/how_to_get_the_truth_out_of_anyone); PDF link (https://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:a-rgt7QUhAAJ:files.blog-city.com/files/J04/63829/b/how_to_get_the_truth_out_of_anyone%281%29.pdf+how+to+get+the+truth+out+of+anyone&hl=en&gl=ph&sig=AFQjCNGraZ7rgxE4jiek2ha7s1_MTaivaA)) and it reminded me of 40hz's reply in this topic.
P.S. Yes, I know a much more succinct image has been posted in DC (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=15887.msg140644#msg140644) before but I just felt it bears repeating when even Microsoft doesn't get it.
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My computer life took a new direction a while back and I also grew tired simply keeping up with Microsoft's turns and twists, primarily with document formats. I could no longer afford to chase them version after version within their proprietary format. Then came ODF.-zridling
ODF sucks almost as much as OOXML; both formats are pretty much XML memory dumps of the internal structure, rather than being sane; the only positive thing about ODF is that it's specification is shorter than OOXML.
Having an XML-based document format for document exchange is nice, but because of the fscktarded nature of both formats, they're only useful when being loaded in their native word processor - and thus the exchange part falls flat and useless on the ground. If you've ever poked around inside the guts of an OOXML or ODF document, you'd hopefully hate them as much as I do. PDF is the only proper "portable" document exchange format, but it's read-only.
Choosing an XML-based document format as the default in a word processor approaches level 10 retardedness. It works fine for small documents, but when you're working with 100+ pages... gah. The old .DOC format might be proprietary and all, but only updating modified sections in an efficient binary format sure as hell beats streaming out several megabytes of crap-XML, especially since the bloat of the crap-XML is hidden by the use of ZIP compression...
As for the cloud computing rambling, I find that as likely to happen as everybody moving to thin clients. It works for simplistic uses, and sure thing a lot of internal applications are done via web-based apps - more power to that. But games and compute-intensive stuff isn't leaving the desktop for years++ to come, and thanks DOYC for that. I'm pretty happy of having control of my own data, Google's "do no evil" my ass :)
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The thing that's always killed me about the ODF quest is that while "they" are trying to find a common method of rendering formatted/rich text on any platform ... (which is a great idea...) ... nobody has even managed to even pull that off with a plain ASKII text document. Basically because there appears to be about 5 different methods of defining a line break. :wallbash:
I do agree with Adobe's .PDF as the best yet attempt at a cross platform document (considering it really does actually just work), but damn that thing is turning into a cagey pita with all the other (Swiss-Army-Knife style) crap they keep trying to squeeze into it.
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The thing that's always killed me about the ODF quest is that while "they" are trying to find a common method of rendering formatted/rich text on any platform ... (which is a great idea...) ... nobody has even managed to even pull that off with a plain ASKII text document. Basically because there appears to be about 5 different methods of defining a line break. :wallbash:
I do agree with Adobe's .PDF as the best yet attempt at a cross platform document (considering it really does actually just work), but damn that thing is turning into a cagey pita with all the other (Swiss-Army-Knife style) crap they keep trying to squeeze into it.
-Stoic Joker
Yeah, and these bloat and speed issues is my main frustration with just about every mainstream program/OS that i run into. When you step back and consider the power that we have available now in our computer (CPU, RAM, GPU, etc.) it's very surprising that programs are not zip-zip fast. I'm not saying anything is slow on my new computer, they are not slow. But it definitely could be faster.
Why is Acrobat such an enormous application? It's all bloat. Don't come to me with the features that 0.001% of the people use. I bet the program could be 20 MB and nobody would notice. And a hell of a lot faster. It should open and close almost before you click the button.
Same with Office. Let's talk Outlook. All it does is email and calendar stuff. So slow. There's no need.
Same with any large mainstream software. Nero, Mcafee, Norton, Photoshop. It just doesn't seem like we are able to enjoy the processing power we have today. The more power we get, the more bloated programs get. And if the OS is bloated or inefficient, then we're instantly off to a bad start.
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Why is Acrobat such an enormous application? It's all bloat. Don't come to me with the features that 0.001% of the people use. I bet the program could be 20 MB and nobody would notice. And a hell of a lot faster. It should open and close almost before you click the button.
-superboyac
Why is it so big? Because companies do use a lot of the functionality built into it. Heck, the company I am with has very few people compared to some organizations I have dealt with, and we use quite a few of the PDF distribution capabilities that acrobat provides. But, also remember, that Adobe ACROBAT is not designed solely as a reader. It is designed for the business/user which wants to control distribution of their documents, provide change tracking, add form capabilities to documents, and quite a lot more. The functionality I list above is only the tip of what acrobat can and is used for. The biggest thing I see people making the mistake about acrobat is using it as an "editor". Acrobat is NOT DESIGNED to edit documents. It is designed to convert your existing documents into a cross platform distributable document with the type of security or modifications you require. Most users think that a PDF document is meant to be a SOURCE document, which it is not (minus, again, form-based documents). You still require a word processor/3rd party application to create the base document.
Same with Office. Let's talk Outlook. All it does is email and calendar stuff. So slow. There's no need.
-superboyac
Outlook does FAR MORE than just calendar and email "stuff". Again, my small organization (~300 people worldwide) uses outlook quite often. We share calendars, exchange email, perform task processing and tracking, manage our organizational contact lists, conduct meetings, and quite a bit more with outlook. Plus, outlook is designed to interact with our user portal so we can share information between outlook and our web-based portal so that users can access this info anywhere in the world. I have yet to meet a program which can do as much as outlook is capable of, minus notes but we won't touch that monstrosity.
Same with any large mainstream software. Nero, Mcafee, Norton, Photoshop. It just doesn't seem like we are able to enjoy the processing power we have today. The more power we get, the more bloated programs get. And if the OS is bloated or inefficient, then we're instantly off to a bad start.
-superboyac
With more processing power comes more ability to perform. Application developers adapt to what their users request. The issue with power users is that all they want is something small but power users, as much as I hate to say it, are not the majority (Minus photoshop/video editing professionals). Nero added most of it's media processing applications to the Nero suite because end users requested it. Nero started as a very basic CD burner but with the change in technology came a change in the end-user requirements for what they hoped the application could do.
Now please, do not get me wrong, some of these changes should be optional and selectable at install (and in Nero's case, they are), but most of what is included has been requested. The vocal MAJORITY determine, in most cases, what is important. Look at Microsoft, the users complained and complained about vista (although I personally had no issues with vista) and now we have Windows 7 which is lighter and as fast, if not faster depending on hardware, as Windows XP.
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The plus of macs imho, is that you can reload it/reformat and get everything back without 3 days of updates. And downloading things to make it do what it needs to.
My son in college uses a mac, and I told him to be sure to save his work to the college's servers or his flash drive. Just in case.
And I feel like he has more time to do his college work then mess with a pc.
The problems he has run in to has been more in the format area. Such as not being able to read or write to ntfs. And problems converting certain videos, divx for one. So then there is a search for mac compatible converters, and reading the user guide a lot, just to figure out how to do things the mac can do.
Overall, even with the price I paid, I'm glad he has a mac to do his college work. Cause he would be distracted with a pc, with it's games and it's flexibility to get almost any program to accomplish any task. While finding a program to convert divx to something a mac can read I have not found. Of course the divx came from a pc.
Personally I will stay with a pc, but I hear the student for mac deal, as a parent. Half of his dorm has macs. I know he's not playing most of his games cause he can't.
I don't know enough about macs to do what I can on a pc.
Which may be the bias for me.
edit- in case you were curious,
he wanted the macbook pro
i tried to talk him into a pc notebook
but a macbook pro is what he wanted
so he has it
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but a macbook pro is what he wanted
so he has it
-cmpm
So... do you check up on him regularly to make sure he's not... you know... a bit to artsy-fartsy?
Sorry to hear that you've wasted a boatload of money to satisfy you son's whim. I'd rather suffer the *u*x brainwaishing of http://daimi.au.dk/ than some {m,f}a{c,g} studio.
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f0dder the first post by you on this page was a great one. most recent post.. well.. not. just my 2 cents. :-\
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No, it was not a whim, he knows more about macs then me.
For a couple of years he has wanted this.
And he deserves it and anything else he wants to do college.
A lot of his friends have macs as well.
He also knows about pcs.
I think that's all I can say about your post fodder.
At this point.
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I would like to dispel 2 common myths about Mac vs Windows. I'm not saying you believe in these, but they are very common in almost every discussion like this -
1. Mac's have superior hardware - they have the exact same components as a pc, ever since Apple switched to Intel. If anything, Apple lags behind pc makers. Unless you buy a Mac right after a refresh, for the next year or so you'll be forced to buy outdated graphics cards, hard disk etc, and don't have the option to upgrade. The difference is in the laptops, which have better design (such as the unibody) and better appearance, but this does not mean they are built better.
2. Mac's are safer - OSX is technically inferior to Windows in nearly every aspect of security. Its safer in the exact same way there's less chance of a robbery in a cottage with no doors in the middle of a desert compared to a house in a big city.
Here's an experiment - buy a pc, clean install Windows (this I totally agree with, pc makers bundle a ton of crapware, but things are improving). Only every install selected hardware from a special list which has been tested and whose drivers are included. Don't install just any random software. And leave well enough alone, don't go around tweaking things (very easy in Windows). In other words, treat the pc as if it were the Mac ecosystem, with very limited choice and premium products. Then see how it behaves.
You should take a look at Apple forums and how threads about problems get deleted. Apple has excellent PR and marketing, even the fact that Apple is by far the worst when it comes to locking down users is spun as a positive.
I've never owned a Mac (can't afford one and honestly don't care to) but have tried to use them at the Apple store. Maybe I'm too trained in Windows and don't 'think different' but I just find it frustrating after the initial wow factor.
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My biggest hurdle when leaving Windows was leaving behind AutoHotkey. That's the only program I missed for a while. Everything else has been a joy.
Zaine, you know about autokey (http://autokey.sourceforge.net/), right? What do you think? python syntax beats ahk's any day...
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The plus of macs imho, is that you can reload it/reformat and get everything back without 3 days of updates.
Make an image of your C partition once a week (twenty minutes on my system) and your Windows PC can be completely restored in no time. Surely, Macs need backing up too.
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Yes, I know about backing up my pc, and do.
I don't know about a mac though.
What I do know is, it doesn't take long for a reformat,
since the OS has everything he needs already.
I'm pro PC myself, and wouldn't switch to a mac.
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The plus of macs imho, is that you can reload it/reformat and get everything back without 3 days of updates. And downloading things to make it do what it needs to.-cmpm
[Talking about the Mac] and it's flexibility to [not be able to] get almost any program to accomplish any task.
What you said in the first quote is directly related to the second quote. If your choices in flexibility are very limited you therefore don't have much to do when you do a reinstall...not because it's not necessary, but because you simply can't. You are mostly stuck with the choices Apple has chosen for you for better or worse.
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What I do know is, it doesn't take long for a reformat,
since the OS has everything he needs already.-cmpm
No. What you know is that it doesn't take long for a reformat since the OS has everything it thinks he needs already. Every week I run across messages posted in software support forums by Mac users pleading that xyz software program for the PC be ported to the Mac & the author's response is always the same: it's just not worth it financially.
If you are a fish who doesn't mind living in a small aquarium then buy a Mac. If, however, you are a fish who craves the open sea & all the diversity it will provide then your only choice is to buy a PC.
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That is a good analogy Innuendo.
And yes he is looking for different programs for his mac.
But everything he needs for college is in OSX.
He also has ms office for mac.
I'm sure he will find what he wants eventually.
The extra mac choices are limited though.
As I stated in my first post on this thread.
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But everything he needs for college is in OSX.
-cmpm
That alone seems like a pretty unarguable point for him using a Mac. It is his college machine after all.
When in Rome...:)
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That alone seems like a pretty unarguable point for him using a Mac. It is his college machine after all. -40hz
I think the unarguable point for cmpm is (and please forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth) that with that Mac there's an ample enough supply of software available to help his child excel in college without there being an ability to run much software that will distract the child from his studies, i.e. no abundance of games that will take him away from his studies.
And I can appreciate that. If one is putting their child through college (paying tuition, buying books, buying a PC for studies, etc.) one would want to ensure that one is getting a good return on one's investment rather than finding out later the child has been spending time best spent on studying on trying to become a professional gamer. ;)
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We all know the Mac lacks any kind of distraction. No Boot Camp and it doesn't even have a browser :P
Why is Acrobat such an enormous application? It's all bloat. Don't come to me with the features that 0.001% of the people use. I bet the program could be 20 MB and nobody would notice. And a hell of a lot faster. It should open and close almost before you click the button.
Same with Office. Let's talk Outlook. All it does is email and calendar stuff. So slow. There's no need.
Same with any large mainstream software. Nero, Mcafee, Norton, Photoshop. It just doesn't seem like we are able to enjoy the processing power we have today. The more power we get, the more bloated programs get. And if the OS is bloated or inefficient, then we're instantly off to a bad start.
-superboyac
But no one is forcing you to use that software. There are several lightweight alternatives to all the apps you have mentioned which most of the times can beat the functionality they offer by quite some margin.
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But no one is forcing you to use that software. There are several lightweight alternatives to all the apps you have mentioned which most of the times can beat the functionality they offer by quite some margin.
-Lashiec
Very true. But when all your peers and instructors use Macs; and all the handouts and examples you are given show a Mac interface; and your formal and ad hoc support networks all think in terms of Macintosh - why fight it? You'll be done in 4 or so years - after which you can switch to anything you want.
As long as they work, there's a lot to be said for standards and platform commonality. In some environments (like a school) almost any standard is preferable to platform chaos, even if it's not an ideal one. A standardized platform removes one unnecessary source of distraction from the mix.
At least so long as it works.
And Macintosh computers (bless their pointed little heads!) do work rather well. So do PCs and NIX boxes. And so do books, pens, paper, and slide rules!
In the end it doesn't really matter what 'gets used' as long as the student is getting educated. :)
to help his child excel in college without there being an ability to run much software that will distract the child from his studies,
-Innuendo
I'm not sure that's so true any more. :tellme:
Except for the real diehards, games aren't that big a thing at most colleges these days. At least from what I've seen. The biggest sources of distraction seem to originate on the Internet. And those are reachable from anywhere by any computer regardless of OS.
As long as there's things like Twitter, YouTube, FaceBook, P2P media torrents, chatrooms, e-mail, and porn sites ;D, the distractions will always be there.
And you won't need to break shrinkwrap to be exposed to them.
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Very true. But when all your peers and instructors use Macs; and all the handouts and examples you are given show a Mac interface; and your formal and ad hoc support networks all think in terms of Macintosh - why fight it? You'll be done in 4 or so years - after which you can switch to anything you want.
-40hz
Huh? I was commenting on superboyac examples of bloated software on Windows, not on the adequacy of a Mac computer on a Mac ecosystem :)
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Huh? I was commenting on superboyac examples of bloated software on Windows, not on the adequacy of a Mac computer on a Mac ecosystem :)
-Lashiec
Hey Lash! Why so you were.
Hmmm....and here I thought you were...
Wow!
Must have been responding to one of those Voices I've been hearing lately :-[
(I really need to get some sleep one of these nights. And also stop straddling several forum discussions at the same time like I'm doing right now. Apparently I'm nowhere near smart enough to do that. ;D)
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Very true. But when all your peers and instructors use Macs; and all the handouts and examples you are given show a Mac interface; and your formal and ad hoc support networks all think in terms of Macintosh - why fight it? You'll be done in 4 or so years - after which you can switch to anything you want.
-40hz
This is more on the point of what I'm trying to discuss here. This is what I'm seeing more and more lately, and I'm assuming (and I may be wrong) that it will eventually have an effect in the computing universe. Will there be a time when the workplaces start shifting to Macs? Or away from PC's? That's what I'm talking about.
The other stuff is more off-topic. I know that there are pdf alternatives. I know how to tame my PC, I've spent my whole life doing it. I know all the options and tweaks out there, and all the little software. That's why I'm here!
It just hit me last week that I had never seen so many Macs around me before. And I was wondering if we're in some kind of transition period right now that hasn't been seen yet. The computing world has been dominated by PC's for the last 20 years. I'm curious how much ground they are losing, if they are at all. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm not able to see the big picture.
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I'm curious how much ground they are losing, if they are at all. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm not able to see the big picture.-superboyac
Probably not much ground at all, at least in the corporate business world. These companies have too much money invested in their specialized software to switch computing platforms. Heck, there are a LOT of companies running custom apps that have been written in COBOL and can't make a switch to a newer programming language as it'd cost the company millions & that's just the cost of moving from one PC programming language to another PC programming language. Start talking about moving to a different computing platform and having to leave *all* your software behind there'll be people in accounting having strokes.
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This is more on the point of what I'm trying to discuss here. This is what I'm seeing more and more lately, and I'm assuming (and I may be wrong) that it will eventually have an effect in the computing universe. Will there be a time when the workplaces start shifting to Macs? Or away from PC's? That's what I'm talking about.-superboyac
I certainly hope this is never going to happen, considering how closed Apple in reality is. I wouldn't like it from a developer perspective either - you're pretty much forced to used Objective-C if you want to have an easy time writing GUI apps... and then there's the issue of Apple introducing proprietary features to the language. Sure thing, closures might be lovely and sexy to work with, but boy does it give vendor lock-in.
Btw, why is it that people say "mac vs PC"? Macs are personal computers, and have been so since day 1. Sure thing, they weren't x86 to begin with, but these days you won't find a non-x86 mac... I guess Apple is happy about it, some people might see it as a perfectly valid reason to pay the premium for their standard-quality PC components :)
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Btw, why is it that people say "mac vs PC"? Macs are personal computers, and have been so since day 1.
-f0dder
I know you're kidding, but people say it 9even if they know better, like me) just because it's a phrase that will be generally understood. Just like the words "kleenex" or "xerox".
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ODF sucks almost as much as OOXML
-f0dder
I keep hearing that.
But ok, assuming that's actually true - does anybody have a better schema that goes beyond pure theory? Has anybody taken it beyond just bashing what's already been proposed? Is there a demonstrably superior (and useable) document standard out there that has actually reached the working prototype stage? Because I'm not aware of any.
So that's why I'm asking.
I figured if anybody knew, it would be somebody here. :Thmbsup:
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Q: How many programmers does it take to design and code a C++ program?
A: One thousand. One person to do the actual work - and the remaining 999 to sit around and chuckle about how they could have done it ten times better with their eyes closed... :P
<EDIT: fixed a minor spelling error. Sorry!>
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I know you're kidding, but people say it 9even if they know better, like me) just because it's a phrase that will be generally understood. Just like the words "kleenex" or "xerox".
-superboyac
Yes...I say it although I know better, but because of all those Mac commercials it's what people know and understand because that's a distinction in definitions that Apple itself came up with...which is fine with me. Modern Macs these days seem more and more like computing appliances than personal computers. I can imagine a day when there'll be a sticker on the bottom of all Macs that states "No user-serviceable parts inside".
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Yes...I say it although I know better, but because of all those Mac commercials it's what people know and understand because that's a distinction in definitions that Apple itself came up with...which is fine with me. Modern Macs these days seem more and more like computing appliances than personal computers. I can imagine a day when there'll be a sticker on the bottom of all Macs that states "No user-serviceable parts inside".
-Innuendo
I like that..."computing appliances"! I hear you. But you also know that the consumers LOVE how the Macs come in one piece. Whenever my friends get a new Mac, they are always so proud about how there are no wires and how everything is tucked away behind the monitor. Now, sure, it's not practical for me because I don't get to fiddle with the parts, but these people will never want to do that. Jobs is a brilliant marketer. He knows what people want. Sony should really try to learn from him.
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Jobs is a brilliant marketer. He knows what people want.
-superboyac
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
:P
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Btw, why is it that people say "mac vs PC"? Macs are personal computers, and have been so since day 1.
-f0dder
I know you're kidding, but people say it 9even if they know better, like me) just because it's a phrase that will be generally understood. Just like the words "kleenex" or "xerox".
-superboyac
Actually I wasn't kidding - I know people around this forum know better, but I've met several mac-users IRL who refuse to believe that these days (ever since ~2005 or so) macs are bog-standard x86 hardware... and make claims like "but photoshop filters run noticably faster on my mac!" (if that's true, for the same hardware, Adobe either intentionally crippled the Windows version of 'shop, or used a really sucky compiler).
But ok, assuming that's actually true - does anybody have a better schema that goes beyond pure theory? Has anybody taken it beyond just bashing what's already been proposed? Is there a demonstrably superior (and useable) document standard out there that has actually reached the working prototype stage? Because I'm not aware of any.-40hz
Imho the old .DOC format is superior to both of them... instead of coming up with OOXML, MS should just have opened up that format instead. It might not be XML-based, but really, fsck that :)
Q: How many programmers does it take to design and code a C++ program?
A: One thousand. One person to do the actual work - and the remaining 999 to sit around and chuckle about how they could have done it ten times better with their eyes closed... :P-40hz
:Thmbsup:
Unfortunately, I often find myself in that situation - which is a bit scary, since I'm not going to claim I always write the worlds best, clean, production-grade code. But... christ. Ever taken a look at, say, the Notepad++ source code?
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Ouch, this has become a Mac can't beat PC at anything thread. (aesthetics aside)
Let's see... well... is OmniOutliner better than OneNote?
That's the last category that I think Macs are praised for that the PC isn't (that hasn't been debunked): Notetaking.
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My biggest hurdle when leaving Windows was leaving behind AutoHotkey. That's the only program I missed for a while. Everything else has been a joy.
Zaine, you know about autokey (http://autokey.sourceforge.net/), right? What do you think? python syntax beats ahk's any day...
-urlwolf
I was not aware of Autokey. Thanks man!!
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It's interesting to read all the reasons given in favor of using Windows. No problem with that. However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return? I contend that once you immerse yourself in the other side -- especially if you want to make a switch -- then you're no longer impressed with Windows, period. It looks pretty, comes with some nice fonts, but it doesn't have enough to lure you back. I don't count games as a reason because you can buy a console for those any day. I've never had time for more than a few minutes of solitaire or chess, so it's not a point in favor of Windows (for me).
Which is why that 12% figure will likely continue to grow, even if Linux forever remains in that 1% desktop range, ha!! :P
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However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return? -zridling
Could it be that they are too poor after paying for their mac to afford to switch back?
Sorry, cheap shot, had to take it thou
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zridling: for me, with linux, it's been an issue of programs being of generally inferior quality, often without proper documentation ("read the source" != documentation), very hostile "support" channels, sucky performance (graphics acceleration, the X11 platform (or at least the common widget toolkits), applications that load slowly, ...), the lack of proper C++ development tools, et cetera.
Obviously it's been easy for you to leave windows, since you seem to be pretty cloud-fascinated, but I'm not - and I also do game every now and then, and stuff that wouldn't be comfortable to play on a console.
I've been using linux since ~1998 or so, and it works great for my server needs... and there's definitely been progress on the desktop side. But there's a long way to go, the attitude from the "community" (if you can call something that fragmented a community), hostility towards commercial software, aggression towards closed-source stuff... well, thanks but no thanks.
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However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return? -zridling
Could it be that they are too poor after paying for their mac to afford to switch back?-Josh
Ha, made me laugh! It's odd that apple customers have never risen up and demanded that prices come down.
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zridling: for me, with linux, it's been an issue of programs being of generally inferior quality, often without proper documentation ("read the source" != documentation), very hostile "support" channels, sucky performance (graphics acceleration, the X11 platform (or at least the common widget toolkits), applications that load slowly, ...), the lack of proper C++ development tools, et cetera.-f0dder
Wow, would love to know which slow programs/distros you're using. I've not had that experience in the past three years. And have never come across a hostile person when asking for help, and I don't know enough about programming to know whether there are "[im]proper C++ development tools." Guess you're stuck with whatever Microsoft giveth. Nothing wrong with that if you're happy with it.
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I will join f0dder in saying that I have had nothing but negative things to say about support when it comes to asking an open source community for help. If you do not read, and understand, the manual then you are laughed at, mocked, and on IRC banned from channels where you should otherwise expect help for your problems.
When asking for a bug to be fixed on a forum, I have been flamed and attacked for suggesting a bug is just that, a bug. I am all about supporting a program, but supporting it to the point where you don't admit its faults is a big thing I have seen in many open source communities.
Software on the F/OSS side of the house is another problem which, like f0dder, I have experienced inferiority on. On windows, when I pay for a program, I expect a certain level of performance and refinement. On F/OSS applications, interfaces feel tacked on (as most GUI tools are simply command line apps with a GUI tacked on as an afterthought). You can claim OoO all you want as a demonstration of fine software development on the F/OSS world, but that is one application out of thousands that exist. Often times bugs present themselves for years on end that never get fixed. I am reminded of the old xkcd.org (http://xkcd.com/619/) comic strip detailing a similar experience.
Feature addition is another fault of most F/OSS software. For the most part, unless the major forum dwellers agree about a feature suggestion, one that isn't flamed to the depths of the forums, the feature is likely to not be implemented.
F/OSS has it's pluses but in my book, the negatives far outweigh and outnumber them.
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zaine: try gnupaint. THE best example of why some people should not be allowed to code :P
As for inferior quality software... Try multiple screen. It works flawlessly in Windows since what, 98? To have extra fun, try it with desktop acceleration on, and see the desktop breaking apart. And then you say "oh, submit a bug report". I did, someone else had submitted it before I did. The bug report has been open since 2007-11-05, and nothing has been fixed. (see here (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/160226))
And then you have this pearl (http://). When you disable "session save", the system always starts with whatever was open in the session where you disabled the option, because the session isn't deleted when you deselect the option. The bug is open, has been swtiching state constantly, but more than three years have gone since it has opened.
Both these bugs affect me personally. I did use a workaround for the second one, but because of the first, I'm using no desktop acceleration and have a twentieth century desktop because my OS from 2009 doesn't support multi-monitor desktops like any other OS does.
Honestly, I like ubuntu. I've been using it as my main desktop since last year, it's great for working (and I code in C++, consider it much handier than Vista). But I think "free software" won't get far. Developers don't like to fix these boring bugs, but these boring bugs drive any regular user crazy.
I gave the gnupaint example because the developer thought it was useful to include "effects", but excluded a regular rectangular selection tool. Or maybe it's there, but I can't find it because he decided he didn't feel like writing the tooltips for the buttons, he must have thought that the stupid symbols on the buttons are enough (and he didn't use anything remotely similar to mspaint, probably because he must think "ms is evil"). Then I thought "ok, I'll check the help file" and (guess what?) there was none!
This is why I'm buying a mac. It'll be as easy as it is currently to connect to a unix server and test stuff locally before deploying (I think it's great that I can test the bash files on my computer before sending them to the server), but I won't have to keep up with this kind of developer stupidity.
[edit] forgot to say: the best thing about ubuntu is repository download. Installing and uninstalling stuff with a command line really is heaven. Can't praise it enough, and I wish (even though I know it's way more difficult) it was available in other platforms! [/edit]
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I agree that mostly any FOSS end-user tool is inferior. Programming tools and languages (add databases) are much better, though. 64-bit ports come earlier, and work.
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Let's see... well... is OmniOutliner better than OneNote?
-Paul Keith
IMHO: Yes, it is. :)
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Got to say that in my opinion something like the Ubuntu support is somewhat better but I have definitely seen and still see that 'rtfa' attitude all over linux forums and channels.
Having browsed endlessly on places like sourceforge I think that, with notable and popular exceptions, open source Windows software tends to be slower and in too many cases have the feel of being a Windows port.
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Honestly, I like ubuntu. I've been using it as my main desktop since last year, it's great for working (and I code in C++, consider it much handier than Vista). But I think "free software" won't get far. Developers don't like to fix these boring bugs, but these boring bugs drive any regular user crazy.
-jgpaiva
zridling: for me, with linux, it's been an issue of programs being of generally inferior quality, often without proper documentation ("read the source" != documentation), very hostile "support" channels, sucky performance (graphics acceleration, the X11 platform (or at least the common widget toolkits), applications that load slowly, ...), the lack of proper C++ development tools, et cetera.
-f0dder
Actually, I think Josh and f0dder might have hit on something that's at the core of the FOSS development model:
FOSS is primarily run by Coders. And Coders primarily want to code. Most don't want to run a business, write documentation, or do end-user support. They just want to code.
The reason this struck me as significant is because of an experience I had early in my career. I had gotten together with a few cohorts from work to produce a forecasting tool for small to mid-sized companies. We had written it using something called Clarion. Clarion Developer was a fairly advanced 4GL database tool for its time.
We had a ball writing and debugging our little project. We even enjoyed adding features as we fleshed out its capabilities and got to know Clarion better.
Then we made a mistake and started selling it ...
We had about five paying customers when it happened: Support calls. Feature requests. Customer employee training and hand holding...
We did our best. And we hated it. But since we only had a few paying clients, we couldn't afford to farm any of these responsibilities out.
Now, the question became what to do next? Quit our day jobs? Seek venture capital? Start hiring and marketing? Turn it into a 'real' business? Get big?
So we talked to a few people. None of the folks who could actually help us really cared about the product itself. All they wanted to talk about was working out some sort of deal (which would basically chain the four of us to our PCs for five or so years) while they marketed the hell out of our app. In return we'd get stock (and a buy out option) if the product actually took off.
In short, it would be business as usual: a total crap shoot for us - and a 'sweetheart deal' with minimal risk for our backers if things didn't pan out.
Since we all had degrees and 'corporate experience' in finance and accounting, we had no illusions that our particular 'product' was anything more than a niche product. And a marginal one at best.
And that's when it hit all of us. We didn't really want to run a software business. We didn't even want to be in business at all. All we wanted to do was code and improve the thing we created. On our own schedule and according to our own priorities. Y'know, "Ars gratia artis." as the saying goes?
But we realized we couldn't that if we were also going to do it as a business.
So in the end, we stopped developing our little product. And to get out from under our obligations to our paying customers, we stopped charging and just gave them the source code. And in order not to leave anyone 'high and dry', one person in our group agreed to support our old customers on a part-time contract basis until they migrated to other software packages.
I think large segments of the FOSS development community feel the same way about their projects as we did about ours. Most are not out to prove anything. They just want to develop their code. Period. And "FREE - use at your own risk" is all the commitment they're willing to make.
Interesting.... 8)
<Edit: Oops. Dropped part of the final draft before I posted. Again. Added reference to and quote from f0dder that got dropped. Hopefully the whole thing now makes more sense.>
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It's interesting to read all the reasons given in favor of using Windows. No problem with that. However, how come so very few people who switch from Windows to Mac or Linux never return? I contend that once you immerse yourself in the other side -- especially if you want to make a switch -- then you're no longer impressed with Windows, period. It looks pretty, comes with some nice fonts, but it doesn't have enough to lure you back. I don't count games as a reason because you can buy a console for those any day. I've never had time for more than a few minutes of solitaire or chess, so it's not a point in favor of Windows (for me).
Which is why that 12% figure will likely continue to grow, even if Linux forever remains in that 1% desktop range, ha!! :P
-zridling
Aside from the price issue, the thing with both is that they feel better "out of the box".
You have to consider the fact that most people who switch to both are the people most likely to not have a favorite exclusive software on Windows. (either because of ignorance or not exploring)
In those situations, it does become like a console situation.
However, for casual users who are on a budget and have a software that eventually becomes more of a priority to use than to tinker with installing on Linux and Wine emulation or hoping for it to be ported to Mac, then it's back to Windows.
Yes, I'm saying it. Aside from Flash problems and other killer app annoyances (Photoshop), Linux IMHO is more for the newbie these days than Windows. I'm sure the same thing holds for the Mac except it's the reverse. Paid programs are expected to work because they're a business but free alternatives are countable compared to the ones on Windows.
I will join f0dder in saying that I have had nothing but negative things to say about support when it comes to asking an open source community for help. If you do not read, and understand, the manual then you are laughed at, mocked, and on IRC banned from channels where you should otherwise expect help for your problems.-Josh
To be honest, this has been improving, it's just that the kind support forums lacks proper knowledgeable users helping out while the famous ones like Ubuntu on IRC gets all the rude users. (Even then, it's more of a frustration of hitting on the wrong user than on the FOSS community at this point.)
For example, take Mint which had to stop support for paid support because there wasn't enough staff in it even when the idea was already started:
Erlik wrote: “Given how good Linux Mint is why would you install anything else? Well, there are a few caveat. First Linux Mint does not have a big support corporation behind it like Ubuntu. This means that it is more difficult to purchase paid support and that there is no software shop where you can purchase commercial applications like PowerDVD for Linux.”
–> This is very true. In brief, Linux Mint is still a very small project and it lacks the resources and structure necessary to offer adequate paid support. In comparison to Ubuntu, Linux Mint cannot support big corporations. We also recently stopped to offer paid support to small companies and individuals as our current structure wasn’t fitted for this activity and we could not guarantee satisfying response times.
http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=900
I'm also not sure since I can't find it on a simple Google search but I could swear I read somewhere where the Sidux community is banned from using the acronym RTFM.
The Linux Questions forums seems also friendly enough.
The big problem is that none of the support here can often provide any workable "on the spot" advises except friendliness.
IMHO: Yes, it is.
-40hz
I'm surprised you don't have much to say about the two. ;D
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IMHO: Yes, it is.
-40hz
I'm surprised you don't have much to say about the two. ;D
-Paul Keith
I guess that's because your outliner is about as personal a choice as your favorite brand of single malt scotch would be. In my case, my former lovers were: MaxThink (PC); Acta (Mac); ecco Po (PC); Inspiration (PC/Mac); OneNote (Win); and OmniOutliner (Mac).
I'm currently between outliners right now. When I absolutely do need to use one however, I usually find myself loading up my old copy of ecco Pro.
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I guess that's because your outliner is about as personal a choice as your favorite brand of single malt scotch
...or your favorite kind of Apple Hardware? :P ...I kid the Mac fanbase.
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I only got 2 out of 10 :tellme:
Who said it: Gates or Jobs? (http://money.howstuffworks.com/gates-or-jobs-quiz.htm)
Source: http://holykaw.alltop.com/can-you-tell-steve-jobs-from-bill-gates
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"He'd be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once or gone off to an ashram when he was younger."
:P
I got 5/10, but it was pretty much guesswork. Basically I went with all the most arrogant-sounding crap as Jobs, and that made for a lot of the correct answers :)
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That was harder than I thought... 4/10 ;D
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4/10 using a strategy similar to f0dder's. I automatically assumed any answer that seemed intended to provoke controversy as coming from Jobs. Glad to see I got the JFK and Woz one right at least. :D
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4/10, some scary quotes there :D
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Um... Speaking of Steve Wozniak ... If I recall my snApple history correctly Wozniak was the brains of the operation and Jobs was the show pony? I can't find the article now but I recall reading that Wozniak was rather dissapointed with what Macs had become.
Honestly in a choice between a Mac & a staph infection, I'd have to flip a coin.
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I completely agree with Superboy on this topic.
Lashiec, certainly you understand that not every user is a power user, and very few are as knowledgeable as you all are here on this forum.
A PC is such a pain in the ass to use and get it running smoothly. Very few people have the ability, patience, and willpower to do it. We're not the norm here.-superboyac
Not to mention time. Learning time.
Someone like me who knows so much about using Windows is very, very rare in my workplace and industry. The problem is that if you're not like me or us here, you WILL run into issues with the PC. Constantly...-superboyac
And that's because people don't listen and do whatever they want in the computer, and then shit happens. And when it happens they blame Windows, instead of putting the blame on themselves.
-Lashiec
Huh? I run into problems all the time. We blame Windows because we cannot fix something if we don't know what's broken. We only know the results. Most of us don't even understand some of the error messages Windows gives.
What is doing "whatever they want"? Installing software? Allowing a Windows update, but not having the driver needed to download the other driver needed to finish it? Starting or shutting down the PC & hoping the system can do it in less than 5 minutes? How it it that the average user is supposed to know how to get around issues like these?
Yesterday, Infran View crashed every time I started it and Paint has not worked in months.
If I had a child, let alone a full-time job, I would never be able to sit here, research and repair repair this.
I've spent hours on this Paint problem & have given up - my life is passing me by! Others simply do not have this kind of time.
My dad is afraid to do anything remotely adventurous on his laptop...
-superboyac
Same here. And he's really smart. Many intelligent people I talk to won't do a lot of things we consider basic, they don't want problems.
I'd also like to add the frustration of going to a software site for support, only to be directed to a forum.
Did you know that even if the search is performed properly by a user, that they don't always work?
Nobody should be obligated to spend large amounts of time scouring the internet for solutions to such problems.
So, please try and see this from an average user's point of view.
I'm looking for a place where I can rent a mac to see if I want to make The Switch as well.
These problems are getting old.
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Lashiec, certainly you understand that not every user is a power user, and very few are as knowledgeable as you all are here on this forum.
-SKesselman
Sure I do, but there are many knowledge levels regarding Windows. Most users ignore the existence of IrfanView, for example, and continue to use Windows built-in picture viewer.
Anyway, my criticism is mostly directed at the language used when comparing Windows and OS X. What I was trying to say it's that Mac OS X is not inherently better than Windows, just that certain circumstances make it seem so. And Apple exploit that in their ads, targeted at your average user (whatever is that). So, in that sense, the Mac really just works, and is theoretically better than Windows because of its "ability" to avoid the pitfalls that trouble the Windows ecosystem. All of this doesn't matter to most users, but we could avoid spreading the myth in the forum, Apple's marketing department is more than enough :)
In my view, no OS is really better than the other. Although using Windows may skew my opinion somewhat in its favour, I think that each OS has its strengths and its weaknesses, and, in the end, all of them are average.
Huh? I run into problems all the time. We blame Windows because we cannot fix something if we don't know what's broken. We only know the results. Most of us don't even understand some of the error messages Windows gives.
Yesterday, Infran View crashed every time I started it and Paint has not worked in months.
If I had a child, let alone a full-time job, I would never be able to sit here, research and repair repair this.
I've spent hours on this Paint problem & have given up - my life is passing me by! Others simply do not have this kind of time.
So do I, as I said. I get into all sorts of problems because of dabbling too much with the innards of the system. For example, during many months PowerPoint Viewer wouldn't run. At all, not even start. I reinstalled it, I cleaned everything the installer writes on the system... nothing. The other day I reinstalled every Office viewer, and applied all the updates, and magically now it's working as always. Maybe it was caused by me monitoring the installation of the app, which, when uninstalled, broke something that the viewer needed? Who knows. Funny enough, that monitoring helped me catch another problem introduced by Word Viewer, which killed the association of HTML files with Opera.
What is doing "whatever they want"? Installing software? Allowing a Windows update, but not having the driver needed to download the other driver needed to finish it? Starting or shutting down the PC & hoping the system can do it in less than 5 minutes? How it it that the average user is supposed to know how to get around issues like these?
Getting software from unknown sources. Installing them clicking "Next" ad nauseam, which in turns get all kind of crapware into the system. NOT allowing Windows updates. Getting drivers from Windows Update (ok, that's something most people do not know, but it's advisable to get them directly from the vendor when possible). Not installing security software, or disabling it because it makes the computer slow, which is caused by the crapware already installed by other apps. Disabling UAC because it's noisy. Not following the basic security rules, and clicking everything is thrown at them, despite you telling them not to do that again and again and again. Would they accept everything people would offer to them in a bad neighborhood? Probably not. I don't expect them to follow the rules all the time (heck, not even I do it), but they could follow them most times.
Some of the issues you mention are not supposed to get fixed by the average user, that's true, but using the computer with sense should avoid most of them. The rest are ones that users likely won't encounter ever, unless someone else caused it (the eventual Microsoft update, for example), which would prompt a call to the knowledgeable friend :)
If someday the Mac ecosystem is hit with the same problems, the advice of switching when hit with problems that could have been avoided in the first place won't have solved anything at all. Some education here will pay off in the long term. And remember, OS X also has its own set of issues, and most of the criticism you express regarding the frustration of finding a solution also applies here.
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In my view, no OS is really better than the other. Although using Windows may skew my opinion somewhat in its favour, I think that each OS has its strengths and its weaknesses, and, in the end, all of them are average.-Lashiec
Your view is correct. No OS is really better than the other when you look at the overall picture. Each OS has its advantages and disadvantages. However, Apple's commercials conveniently leave that part out. As a matter of fact, Apple's commercials leave out a LOT about OS X. Next time you see a Mac commercial pay close attention to what is said. Over 90% of the commercial is spent talking about Windows PCs and what Windows PCs do wrong. Very little is said about OS X's capabilities & after all these commercials we have yet to see a single screenshot of OS X or a list of what it can do. Why don't they show a person *using* a Mac and OS X to convince you to buy rather than just slam, insult, and sling mud at the competition?
Compare that to the commercial Microsoft has out right now for Windows 7. They show a little girl using Windows & making pretty cool multimedia presentations. I think the average person will see that and think, "Wow...so simple a child can do it" and probably just as importantly, what is conspicuously absent from their commercials? Insulting the competition. Microsoft? Taking the higher ground? Somebody's sized Satan for ice skates, for sure!
For those contemplating moving to a Mac don't let the Mac commercials influence your decision at all. The only information they impart is how Apple feels about Windows PCs and Microsoft. I think we all could guess what was on Apple's mind regarding that subject without the need for a multi-million dollar ad campaign.
OS X crashes just as much as Windows. There are just as many mysterious, "unfixable" problems on a Mac as there are on a Windows PC. If you want to switch because you like the way the OS works on a Mac better then great. Go forth and enjoy it. If you want to switch because you want a more reliable computer you may be disappointed.
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Compare that to the commercial Microsoft has out right now for Windows 7. They show a little girl using Windows & making pretty cool multimedia presentations. I think the average person will see that and think, "Wow...so simple a child can do it" and probably just as importantly, what is conspicuously absent from their commercials? Insulting the competition. Microsoft? Taking the higher ground? Somebody's sized Satan for ice skates, for sure!
-Innuendo
Sadly, the OSX= "it just works" vs Windows = "buggy and crash ridden" dichotomy is ingrained in our thinking, regardless of the fact that it's patently nonsense. Thus, I think most people viewing the Windows 7 ads are more likely to think "who are they trying to kid. Pathetic". I believe that that is how extensive and effective the Apple marketing has been.
An example: I have friends that purchased a new notebook about 8 months ago. They bought a machine with a decent dual-core CPU, 4GB RAM, onboard graphics, and Vista 64 installed. I've played with it and it works fine - quite snappy opening Office programs and surfing the net (which is all it is used for) - but they're so convinced that Vista sucks that they complain about it endlessly. Once I realised that NOTHING would convince them otherwise, I stopped taking the bait and no longer allow myself to be drawn into a discussion about it with them. I doubt that Windows 7 will be able to overcome this kind of thinking, given MS' upgrade pricing and policies.
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So good luck if/when you do go Mac, superboy. You'll enjoy it, but if you wait five years, you're going to be missing a lot. Once you leave Windows, you'll soon see that it isn't good enough to lure you back. Of the three big OSes, it's the last choice of those who have tried all three. (For each one's own reasons.)
-zridling
This is the kind of thing that I really don't like. They're computers and tools- and Windows does a lot of things well. I'm a person that started on an Apple ][e, and then went to Mac. Then for several years used both, and once I had a chance to get my own again, went with a PC. And have never looked back. I do plan to get a MacBook Pro- but only because of my iPhone. If I could develop for it on my PC I would. Because Apple really doesn't have anything to lure me back, other than my iPhone. But I can tell you that the majority of my drive will be for Windows 7. Not fanboyish or anything, but it just fits what I do better and works for me better- and developing for Windows is *still* easier than for Mac or Linux, and I've still kept a hand in both.
Generalizations are usually just that, and don't really apply to everyone, and using them in discussions really gets to me. If you like Mac, Linux, or Windows... fine. But to me, they're just tools and I use what works best... and for me, it's Windows- professionally and personally.
OS X crashes just as much as Windows. There are just as many mysterious, "unfixable" problems on a Mac as there are on a Windows PC. If you want to switch because you like the way the OS works on a Mac better then great. Go forth and enjoy it. If you want to switch because you want a more reliable computer you may be disappointed.
-Innuendo
Amen. I've had veritable *nightmares* using the Mac with problems. Not that I haven't had them on Windows, but just goes to show that they are computers, and computers have problems at times.
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Just 2 cents to spice things up :P:
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28388/53/
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OS X crashes just as much as Windows. There are just as many mysterious, "unfixable" problems on a Mac as there are on a Windows PC. If you want to switch because you like the way the OS works on a Mac better then great. Go forth and enjoy it. If you want to switch because you want a more reliable computer you may be disappointed.
-Innuendo
Amen. I've had veritable *nightmares* using the Mac with problems. Not that I haven't had them on Windows, but just goes to show that they are computers, and computers have problems at times.
-wraith808
Dont mean to be cruel to any mac fans but I'm reassured to hear that.
Just 2 cents to spice things up :P:
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28388/53/
-fenixproductions
now that's scary . . losing all your data :tellme:
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Just 2 cents to spice things up :P:
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28388/53/
-fenixproductions
now that's scary . . losing all your data :tellme:
(Now now) Think Different ... Losing all your files is just a golden opportunity to start with fresh ideas.
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(Now now) Think Different ... Losing all your files is just a golden opportunity to start with fresh ideas.
-Stoic Joker
lol ;D
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There are a few things I'm learning here:
--The OS is not to blame so much as the amount of users using it. Sounds like Mac may have similar issues as Windows does if it was their OS that was in 90% of the computers.
--Jobs is still a brilliant marketer.
--I'm not close to giving up my favorite software to change OS. Never was.
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How many tech blogs featured that bug discovery? Especially if a similar bug was found on Windows how would the coverage and resulting commentary be? This mac just works thing is really silly.
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How many tech blogs featured that bug discovery? Especially if a similar bug was found on Windows how would the coverage and resulting commentary be? This mac just works thing is really silly. -rgdot
Every major media outlet would be covering this if it was happening under Windows and Microsoft would be being excoriated EVERYWHERE... whereas when Jobs et al. are behind a glitch like this it's barely noted.
FWIW, it's time for my semi-annual disclaimer: I am a PC but I own a Mac as well... I like OSX (I'm still on Tiger due to hardware limitations) but I can't stand Apple's marketing.
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I am a PC -Darwin
Darwin makes his computer orientation clear :D (with apologies ;) - or maybe it was meant that way!)
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Wow, one of my favorite computer subjects and I've missed most of the discussion! :D
There really is way too much for me to reply to here, but I have a few random (really, truly, random) thoughts:
In response to someone earlier in the thread: graphics apps are actually seldom made on or for Mac anymore. There are far, far, FAR more graphics apps of all kinds available either Windows-exclusive, or cross-platform (e.g. Irfanview, XnView, Paint.net, Faststone, etc, etc.). The only apps really made for Macs now are Adobe and Apple's own, of course. Apple has purchased a few major developers (e.g. Finalcut devs) to make them platform-exclusive, but before that they were cross-platform.
I don't think the "Photoshop is made for and works better on Mac" argument holds up anymore, not for several versions at least. If I recall 64 bit CS4 was massively delayed on Mac this generation, a big signal right there. Apple does a lot of things wrong behind the scenes in the coder's world. If you've ever talked to someone coding for the Mac platform and just trying to get things done, you'd hear all about it. I know because I work for a company that makes a cross-platform graphics app, and some of Apple's decisions really defy belief.
In regards to businesses converting just because a generation of people become Mac users (which they aren't - Macs still have very much a minority of even consumer-level systems), that won't happen because - with the exception of small or niche businesses (e.g. graphics shops) - what businesses use isn't largely dictated by what their employees know and like, it's dictated by an IT department who will always be savvy with Windows or whatever platform best enables them to do their job, and it's also dictated by business software availability and support, which is still largely MS or at least Windows focused. Apple seems to ignore this market fairly consciously, too. They probably aren't all that interested in the low margin business market, and who can really blame them. People always talk about Apple reaching these new markets with apparently the mistaken assumption that all markets are necessarily worth owning, but Apple proves that being a minority player can still be extremely profitable. Apple puts in probably about 10% of the effort that MS does, and reaps 90% of the reward that MS does with a far larger market share.
As for why Apple keeps marketing the way they do, well of course the answer is *because it works*. What other reason is there to use marketing of any kind? If truthful marketing campaigns that showed actual users would garner more users, naturally that's what they'd use. But I think that in itself shows you that OS X *can't* be that much better, otherwise they would use those tactics. Even WWDC and other Apple events, where they *do* show stuff in action, are actually paid attention to by a relative minority of Mac users (let alone computer users overall), and they're not a primary marketing piece. If those demos were so good at selling Mac's features and stability, they'd be the ads, but they aren't. Instead we have smarmy Justin Long basically just standing by letting the PC screw everything up, and then casually, almost even reluctantly pointing out that Mac is the obvious, superior option.
Here's what's interesting about all this, and it's been at least touched on, if not fully discussed already: the only reason any of this works, the only reason the Mac platform has any kind of edge (and that edge certainly isn't in market share - 10% overall), is precisely *because* of its "underdog" status and the relatively small size of its market. Give it a 90% market share and
A: more users, more problems
B: to get there they'd have to lower prices and lower margins, which means less budget to do great design, possibly the need to shop out system construction to 3rd parties again and thus broadening hardware support requirements and lowering the reliability of the OS
C: bigger target for viruses and other malware
D: (and this is the one few consider) given what happened to Microsoft re: antitrust, and looking at how Apple is doing *way* worse things in this regard (forget just bundling a browser or media player, they bundle everything, plus *force* installation of apps you don't even want on your system, even if it's *not* a Mac), it would be shocking if Apple wouldn't be subject to the same kind of sanctions
What you have to ask yourself when considering Macs and where they will go is, has BMW become the most owned car in America? Will it ever? No and probably not. The only way that would ever happen is if BMW weren't a luxury manufacturer. They are defined by their market. Change the market, and you change the product, change the company, change everything. The same is true of Apple.
So do I see Apple running away with the business market or becoming a huge success in the true mainstream? Nope. Would I consider it as a platform for my own computing needs? Sure, as soon as they let me customize the UI more. That's my biggest complaint with the OS, honestly. Not even general customizability as that's actually fairly good if you're willing to dig into the commandline. There's a whole community of OS X hackers just like there are Windows hackers, people like us here who like tweaking and tuning to get the most out of the OS. You don't hear as much about them because OS X as a platform is supposed to "just work", but there are plenty of people who aren't satisfied with how it "just works" out of the box and work to make it "just work" in a different way. ;) The UI though is somewhat more rigid as I understand it, and that's a big part of what keeps me away. That and the lack of more system-level utils like better file managers, which someone else mentioned. But I still keep an eye on what they're doing and I hope that one day they do decide to offer a more "serious", "geek" line of systems and OS products, sort of an unlocked version of the Mac experience. But I doubt it - it'd be a big threat to their cash cow, and what sensible business would want to do that just to satisfy a minority of potential customers?
- Oshyan
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Just 2 cents to spice things up :P:
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28388/53/
-fenixproductions
Was just coming here to post this to show people that OS X isn't as bug-free as Apple portrays it to be.
-
Every major media outlet would be covering this if it was happening under Windows and Microsoft would be being excoriated EVERYWHERE... whereas when Jobs et al. are behind a glitch like this it's barely noted.-Darwin
Well, to be fair...is it really newsworthy when it's a bug that affects less than 10% of computer users world-wide? ;)
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That and the lack of more system-level utils like better file managers, which someone else mentioned.-JavaJones
File manager junkie that I am if I were a Mac user I think I'd be using this:
http://www.binarynights.com/forklift
It looks like it whoops Finder's butt.
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That and the lack of more system-level utils like better file managers, which someone else mentioned.-JavaJones
File manager junkie that I am if I were a Mac user I think I'd be using this:
http://www.binarynights.com/forklift
It looks like it whoops Finder's butt.
-Innuendo
I've tried it and it's nice... Path Finder (http://www.cocoatech.com/) is also interesting. There are a few others that I've not tried (such as Disk Order (http://likemac.ru/english/)), but nothing like the range of choice available for windows. FWIW (and tangentially), the new Windows Explorer in Windows 7 is very good - it features integrated search and a file previewer. If only they'd bring back dual-pane (a la Windows 3) as well...
-
Every major media outlet would be covering this if it was happening under Windows and Microsoft would be being excoriated EVERYWHERE... whereas when Jobs et al. are behind a glitch like this it's barely noted.-Darwin
Well, to be fair...is it really newsworthy when it's a bug that affects less than 10% of computer users world-wide? ;)
-Innuendo
Good point...
-
Darwin, I'm surprised you like the changes in Win7's file manager. I wrote a blog post about why I hate it. :D
http://oshyan.blogspot.com/2009/09/fixing-windows-7-part-1.html
Of course my recommendation applies to almost any of the available Windows file manager replacements, it just happens that Free Commander is, well, free, and nicely capable. I've found a few things that don't work quite right on Win7 (drag and drop to apps for instance), but overall it's quite good.
- Oshyan
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The problem is it simply does not seem to find me the files I'm looking for. Ever. Granted you can choose not to use it, as before, but here's where it gets weird: the results I get when not using indexing are still not as comprehensive as those I was able to find using the old Windows Explorer. I have no idea why this is, I only know that it is so.
-from JavaJones' blog
I liked that. This is a phrase that more developers should hear about their software. I find myself thinking this way about a lot of things when it comes to software. I have nothing really to say here, I just thought that resonated with me. People like to talk about the features, the programming details, all the geeky stuff, but that phrase is often what drives my actions in things related to software.
-
--Jobs is still a brilliant marketer.
-superboyac
Here's my take on that topic:
Jobs is still a brilliant successful marketer. ;)
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Here's another Snow Leopard bug (though not as bad as the delete your data bug):
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2184529&tstart=0
How many other OSes get so confused you have to type your login password backwards to log in?
There was also a bug in Leopard where if you were moving files from your Mac to a destination over the network & the connection was lost all the files you were moving were deleted regardless of whether or not they had successfully made it to their intended destination.
OS X...it just (half-ass) works.
-
Darwin, I'm surprised you like the changes in Win7's file manager. I wrote a blog post about why I hate it. :D
http://oshyan.blogspot.com/2009/09/fixing-windows-7-part-1.html
Of course my recommendation applies to almost any of the available Windows file manager replacements, it just happens that Free Commander is, well, free, and nicely capable. I've found a few things that don't work quite right on Win7 (drag and drop to apps for instance), but overall it's quite good.
- Oshyan
-JavaJones
Heh, heh - touche! I don't actually use Windows Explorer. Haven't since I was using Windows 98... I use Dopus 9 full-time and have XYPlorer installed as well. Thus, I might not be the best person to be making announcements about the pros and cons of changes in Win 7's version of Windows Explorer :-[
-
Here's another Snow Leopard bug (though not as bad as the delete your data bug):
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2184529&tstart=0
How many other OSes get so confused you have to type your login password backwards to log in?
OS X...it just (half-ass) works.
-Innuendo
Remember Think Different ... This is merely another demonstration of just how aw inspiring intelligent Mac users are. Just look at the OPs testimony:
What I quickly discovered is the password must be typed in reverse order
...As we all know the first thing anyone with any sense tries when any authentication method fails is to enter the password back-wards. Just in case the computer happens to be trapped in a mirror (or your password is noon...)
In reality his trouble serves him right for bothering to put a password on a Mac as they're far to secure to ever need one ... it says so right on TV!!!
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Well, to be fair...is it really newsworthy when it's a bug that affects less than 10% of computer users world-wide? ;)-Innuendo
Percentage differs. It may be 10% for world-wide but more for Mac users. As someone already said: for Windows it would be very big hit even if happen for something smaller. For Apple it is rarely heard of because "everything is so perfect"…
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I do plan to get a MacBook Pro- but only because of my iPhone.
-wraith808
Why not get a Mac Mini (cheaper) or, even cheaper, simply run a hacked OS X in a VM? :)
-
For Apple it is rarely heard of because "everything is so perfect"…
-fenixproductions
Only because Steve Jobs and his rabid fans (note: this statement is not to imply that everyone who owns a Mac is a rabid fan) downplay every flaw and deny every vulnerability. Like I stated earlier in the thread, non-Mac users usually don't hear about serious flaws in the Mac OS till it's been fixed when the Mac forums fill with comments of "I'm glad it doesn't do that anymore."
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Only because Steve Jobs and his rabid fans (note: this statement is not to imply that everyone who owns a Mac is a rabid fan) downplay every flaw and deny every vulnerability.
-Innuendo
True. Only something like half of them actually get like that. ;D
-
I do plan to get a MacBook Pro- but only because of my iPhone.
-wraith808
Why not get a Mac Mini (cheaper) or, even cheaper, simply run a hacked OS X in a VM? :)
-f0dder
Because I need a new laptop, and once you get to the level of hardware that I need for my laptop, the price isn't that much difference. The price for a Mac on the lower end is more expensive, but as you scale up, the price isn't that much different, I've found.
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Upgrade your ordinary laptop to a Macbook.Only $0.99!
(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/174/acidpicdump6107.jpg)
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^^ok...that's funny.
-
Only because Steve Jobs and his rabid fans (note: this statement is not to imply that everyone who owns a Mac is a rabid fan) downplay every flaw and deny every vulnerability.
-Innuendo
True. Only something like half of them actually get like that. ;D
-40hz
So, the rest are born that way?
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lol @ that picture, that way downgrades are easy too and probably must be done once a week
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lol @ that picture, that way downgrades are easy too and probably must be done once a week
-rgdot
Twice actually, but the (update) flies (only live 3 days...) are basically self updating so there is no real work involved.
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Hehe, great pic. But, I guess we're not going to get any more meaningful discussion out of this one? :D
- Oshyan
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Only because Steve Jobs and his rabid fans (note: this statement is not to imply that everyone who owns a Mac is a rabid fan) downplay every flaw and deny every vulnerability.
-Innuendo
True. Only something like half of them actually get like that. ;D
-40hz
So, the rest are born that way?
-cranioscopical
Yep! :)
Hehe, great pic. But, I guess we're not going to get any more meaningful discussion out of this one? :D
- Oshyan
-JavaJones
Nope! :)
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Well, how about I post what I posted in the other thread about this data deletion bug:
Apple has known about this bug since September 12 and yet there still is no fix. This may be atypical behavior for Apple, but it may not. Are they always so slow to fix major problems such as this?
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Well, some random comments:
I LOVE the Apple multi-touch touchpad. It is awesome. You know what would be a cool idea? I large pad on your desk to replace a mouse if you wanted. You use your fingers to move around and do stuff with multi-touch commands and so forth. That would be something really cool. but it would have to be a decent size, maybe the size of paper (8.5x11"). I dig that.
-
Well Google did bring up something regarding touchpad mouses:
(http://www.cirque.com/Libraries/All_Images/desktop-mouse-overview.sflb.ashx)
http://www.cirque.com/desktoptouchpad/touchpad-mouse-overview.aspx
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well. hm
this is primarily a pc site
not for mac users
wraith808-
The price for a Mac on the lower end is more expensive, but as you scale up, the price isn't that much different, I've found.
i couldn't have said it better myself
and with bootcamp built into mac,
ms windows can be installed whenever one is ready to
the actual comparisons i've seen
of a mac pro and a comparable pc
gives mac OSX the edge over Vista and XP, at this time
that's without windows7 considered
being able to really install both OS on one computer is a plus
that is one reason for the one i bought
pc's can't do it like a mac can
i wish a pc could, i'd like to try macOSX myself
instead of listening to everyone else's opinion
and not virtual either but installed with any quirks that come up
---
the sales pitch for macs really do suck
mainly because of slamming a pc
without comparing how a mac handles the same things
besides, there is nothing in particular pointed out in a pc specifically
just the ideas are thrown out, pc is a bad move, without facts or proof
but i don't see much ads from ms about it's actual workings
...well i haven't seen much ads for mswindows at all...
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Well Google did bring up something regarding touchpad mouses:
(http://www.cirque.com/Libraries/All_Images/desktop-mouse-overview.sflb.ashx)
http://www.cirque.com/desktoptouchpad/touchpad-mouse-overview.aspx
-Paul Keith
That is very cool. It doesn't mention anything about multi-touch, which is the real key feature of the apple touchpads. That makes all the difference in the world.
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Innuendo, from what I hear Apple *is* often slow to respond to issues like this with appropriate patches. Why that is I'm not sure.
The price difference for Mac vs. PC really depends on the *specific* model you're looking at. You could say it's "not that big once you get to the high end", but as a blanket statement that's not necessarily true, particularly in the laptop area.
17" MacBook Pro
2.8Ghz Core 2 Duo
4GB RAM
500GB HD (5400RPM - $50 more for 7200)
$2500
Dell Studio 17
1.73/3.06Ghz Core i7 (quad core, should be faster than the C2D even at lower clock)
4GB RAM
500GB HD (7200RPM)
Blu-ray drive
$1700
Granted the Dell is 1.5lb heavier and has only 1600x900 rather than 1920x1080 display, but both are LED LCD, backlit keyboard, and the Dell has a faster single graphics card. Maybe not the clearest landslide in the world, but at $800 cheaper I could buy a second netbook for ultra portability if I wanted, and still come out ahead. This was also just the first reasonable comparison I saw. I'm sure if I looked at other Dell, HP, etc. models I could find something closer, and equally sure it would still be lower priced (and come with a longer standard warranty).
On the flip side, look at Dell's workstations vs. the Mac Pro prices and you'll see Apple tends to excel in this area as far as price goes. Many people buy Mac Pros for their workstation needs and then just install Windows on it since it's good hardware and comes at a surprisingly decent price for what you get (dual Nehalem Xeons). Just don't bother upgrading *anything* through Apple (e.g. memory, hard drive) as they'll charge you a boatload. Oh and I hope you don't want a top-end graphics card. ;)
- Oshyan
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That macbook does have a top end graphics card... what kind does that Dell Studio have? I've priced the Dell vs the MacBook for what I was looking for... and the VAIO... and they all are within a few hundred of each other...
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There are two separate video cards on the newer MacBook Pros. One (the 9400m) is for everyday graphics and requires less power. The 9600M GT has its own memory (512mb) and is a high-end graphics card for gaming, etc.
I figure the 512 is for an external monitor.
Not sure, I didn't get much of a chance to check it out.
There wasn't much time for me to get to know it.
The owner of it needed to use it as long as he could before college to learn OSX.
2.8Ghz Core 2 Duo
4GB RAM
500GB HD
15 inch display
7 hour battery
A student discount was going then, 10 maybe 15 percent off.
Free canon printer/scanner, free ipod, i forget what else.
Maybe that's all. A little over $2000, o yeah msoffice for mac, student.
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being able to really install both OS on one computer is a plus
that is one reason for the one i bought
pc's can't do it like a mac can
i wish a pc could, i'd like to try macOSX myself
-cmpm
Yes, agreed. However, this is an Apple imposed limitation and has nothing to do with either Windows or the hardware (beyond the fact that one is not *supposed* to be able to install OSX on a non-Apple produced platform.
-
That macbook does have a top end graphics card... what kind does that Dell Studio have? I've priced the Dell vs the MacBook for what I was looking for... and the VAIO... and they all are within a few hundred of each other...
-wraith808
Neither the 9400M or the 9600M GT on the MacBook Pro are anywhere *near* "top end". The dell has a ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4670 which should be fairly decent - comparable at the least.
And here's the Sony VAIO version:
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo Processor T9600 (2.80GHz)
Microsoft® Windows Vista® Home Premium 64-bit
4GB DDR2-SDRAM (DDR2-800, 2GBx2)
500GB SATA Hard Disk Drive [5400 rpm]
Blu-ray Disc™ playback/burning
ATI Mobility Radeon™ HD4650 graphics card with 1GB vRAM-great for games and movies
16.4" widescreen with XBRITE-FullHD™ LCD technology (1920x1080)
$1720
- Oshyan
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Well, some random comments:
I LOVE the Apple multi-touch touchpad. It is awesome. You know what would be a cool idea? I large pad on your desk to replace a mouse if you wanted. You use your fingers to move around and do stuff with multi-touch commands and so forth. That would be something really cool. but it would have to be a decent size, maybe the size of paper (8.5x11"). I dig that.
-superboyac
Have you seen this thread 10/GUI (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=20251.0) - new ideas for the desktop using multi-touch touch-pad/small screen
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You know what would be a cool idea? I large pad on your desk to replace a mouse if you wanted. You use your fingers to move around and do stuff with multi-touch commands and so forth.-superboyac
Cute idea, but touch is still less precise than a mouse - it'd probably work fine for daily use, but if you need any kind of precision work (graphics, whatever) I doubt it's going to play out that well.
The price for a Mac on the lower end is more expensive, but as you scale up, the price isn't that much different, I've found.-wraith808
Wasn't like that last time I looked - sure, if you need the exact same kind of connections and features, you might be right... but for "standard" needs, every time I've looked I was able to get substantially faster hardware for the same price tag, or comparable hardware for a substantially lower price.
pc's can't do it like a mac can-cmpm
(windows) PCs can't do what like a (pc) mac can? If it wasn't for Apple's monopolistc artificial restriction crap, I could take a snow leopard DVD and install it right on my current standard Windows box - or in a virtual machine. Funnily enough there's no problems installing Windows on Apple hardware, only the other way around. (But hey, hack up the install OS X DVD and you'll be able to run it on a lot of standard machines).
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It's Apple's fault that MS and it's mob won't make Windows capable of handling OSX?
I'm quite sure ms could do it. But they will not.
That would change the market for MS.
I'm pretty sure if Windows could run Apple's OS,
there would be a change in what's on the shelf in the OS aisle.
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It's Apple's fault that MS and it's mob won't make Windows capable of handling OSX?
I'm quite sure ms could do it. But they will not.
That would change the market for MS.
I'm pretty sure if Windows could run Apple's OS,
there would be a change in what's on the shelf in the OS aisle.
-cmpm
Windows handling OSX? OSX is an Operating System, Windows is an Operating System. It's not a matter of one "handling" the other. MAC is a hardware platform (Exactly the same as a "PC") that people buy and then consequently install windows on because OSX cannot run the programs they need. It's not a matter of WINDOWS running MAC's OS, It's a matter of MAC opening up OSX so that it could be run on a "PC" without HACKING it.
-
Neither the 9400M or the 9600M GT on the MacBook Pro are anywhere *near* "top end". The dell has a ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4670 which should be fairly decent - comparable at the least.
<snip />
ATI Mobility Radeon™ HD4650 graphics card with 1GB vRAM-great for games and movies
-JavaJones
The 4670 is pretty comparable... until you look at the pixel pipelines. the 9600 can pump more graphics through easily, despite being an earlier video card... and the macbook that I was looking at had a 7200 RPM hard drive... another significant upgrade. Add to that the fact that you can switch graphics cards to increase battery life- I have that on my VAIO, and that was a pretty decent upgrade also...
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Whatever....
The windows machine will not be built to handle the OSX format.
Their 90% would change. They are not that stupid.
Apple made a marketing move to use intel and bootcamp.
It's about their money, both of them, not what we, the computer users would like.
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well. hm
this is primarily a pc site
not for mac users-cmpm
I don't think that's true. DoCo is remarkably agnostic when it comes to hardware platform and operating systems.
There's "primarily" more discussion of non-Apple related topics because that's what the majority of the DoCo community work with.
We're a promiscuous bunch here. Most of us will use anything. ;D
being able to really install both OS on one computer is a plus
that is one reason for the one i bought
pc's can't do it like a mac can
I think it would be more correct to say PCs aren't allowed to do it like Macs are."
Not being able to easily install OSX on anything but Apple's hardware is a purely arbitrary marketing decision by Apple to force you to buy theirs. There are no legitimate technical reasons for why it can't be done as easily as installing Windows or Linux on a Mac.
Apple used to say that "1984 won't be like 1984." And they were right. But I guess they stopped counting at that point. Because most of what they did afterwards only brought it closer.
Here's an interesting thing about many people who style themselves "Revolutionaries." Once they buck the old regime and gain some power for themselves, they almost always become worse tyrants than the people they replaced.
But then again, it's always been a truism that rules are made for other people so I guess it's to be expected.
Like Apple says: Think Different!
Maybe they should have said: Abandon Logic! :P
-
Whatever....
The windows machine will not be built to handle the OSX format.
Their 90% would change. They are not that stupid.
-cmpm
You keep saying Windows. Mac's are PCs just like PCs are PCs. They use identical hardware. Apple has CHOSEN to limit OSX to the MAC (PC) hardware it chooses. They use very strict controls to ensure you cannot install it on other hardware although that won't and hasn't stopped the hacking crowd. There are hackintoshes and they prove that apple is arbitrarily locking down it's SOFTWARE to its HARDWARE.
-
Whatever....
The windows machine will not be built to handle the OSX format.
Their 90% would change. They are not that stupid.
Apple made a marketing move to use intel and bootcamp.
It's about their money, both of them, not what we, the computer users would like.
-cmpm
Oh boy, you really bought the kool-aid, didn't you? :)
See what Josh wrote in the post right before this one.
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Microsoft is guilty of the same tactics is what I'm saying.
It's about money!
I can install MS windows on a Mac.
I can't install Mac on a Computer built for MS windows.
So you say it's apple's fault.
I don't really know.
If hackers can do it, certainly ms can.
and yeah i know a mac is a pc
thinking of that stupid commercial.....
"I'm a pc"
they don't say ms windows you know
-
Ummm... you can install windows on a Mac. Even without bootcamp. There are several other non-hacky ways to install windows on a Mac. As for the other ways, well, Apple has safeguards built into the standard OS installs to keep you from installing on anything other than Apple Hardware. And they don't sell their OS in any manner other than with their hardware, or as an upgrade to an existing installation.
You're right- it's about money... but the focus for the two is in different areas. MS is a software company- all they care about is selling Office and other software... and to do that, they keep people on Windows, though they make a lot of money off of Macs too. If you want to run it on whatever hardware (I couldn't think of anything far enough out there) it's up to you. Apple is a hardware company. They sell software, but don't get it twisted- their primary bread and butter is hardware. The OS (Is it still OSX... or is it now OSXI? Or OSXII?) is just their way of selling through more hardware. Why else do you think they control prices on their hardware so much? Competition in the hardware market would undercut their bottom line.
In the end, buy what you need and want- it's a tool, and nothing more. They don't care anything for you other than your $$$... so why should you care any more for them that that?
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Yes, I can see apple being about hardware and MS about software. Thanks for that input wraith808.
Don't know if apple has a patent on their format though.
Seems ms could put in the ability to create a mac partition.
There's a lot I don't know, nor care about.
-
Since Mac OSX is owned by Apple who don't permit it to be installed on anything except their own hardware, MS cannot legally do anything to install it on Windows PCs. Hackers don't worry about about any licensing restrictions. So, it is possible to circumvent the restrictions, but MS cannot do it for you.
-
If hackers can do it, certainly ms can
Apple *tries* to restrict installation of OSX to Apple produced and sold hardware. Indeed, it is difficult to install OSX on non-Apple hardware and doing so is in violation of Apple's EULA (or so I belivieve). The OS looks for a unique hardware ID on the MB when it's being installed - if it doesn't find it, it won't run without a lot of hacking. This is 100% on Apple and has nothing to do with MS or with the PC manufacturer. This is a marketing decision on Apple's part - "PC" (or rather, non-Apple PC) manufacturers could care less if you install OSX on their machines but Apple won't allow it - which I have always thought to be shortsighted because there ARE enough people out there who are fed up with Windows that they might make the switch if they could do it with their existing hardware and Apple could thus grab more of the OS market share. Microsoft, no doubt, is pretty happy about this arrangement BUT they have nothing to do with it and will have no control over it if, in future, Apple releases OSX to the unwashed masses. I suspect that Apple/Jobs know that if OSX were released for use on non-Apple controlled boxes, they'd have a LOT of problems with it fast and the lustre would come off OSX faster than you can say Windows 7 (or XP or Vista)!
No one will dispute your argument that to both companies it's about the money. However, if you continue to brand Microsoft as the "bad guy" in the "OSX won't run on a Microsoft machine (sic)" scenario, you're going to continue to draw rebuttals.
Now, as wraith notes above, when it comes to choosing an Apple versus a non-Apple machine (and thus OSX versus Windows versus something else): whatever floats your boat!
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cmpm, i am sorry but you are wrong. It is NOT Microsofts responsibility to make OSX run on PC Hardware. OSX is proprietary to the mac. Yes it can work on the PC hardware, but only after hacking it. That is NOT Microsofts job nor is it a PC Manufacturers job. Apple has restricted use to their MAC hardware platform. Saying that microsoft could "create a mac partition" is silly in so many ways when it comes to a business aspect. Why would they WANT to do that? OSX offers nothing in terms of software or program availability that windows cannot already handle.
As you say, there is a lot you do not know, and I would suggest reading up on this topic because labeling microsoft the bad guy on this aspect is the wrong way to go. Apple has their software locked to hardware. It is NOT microsoft trying to lock out apple from the PC platform (which it has no control over).
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I didn't label MS as the 'bad guy', sheesh!
They are just companies doing what they do.
Have to pass on the reading up,
I don't care, nor could I do a dam thing about it.
However, I do appreciate the info.
I just thought if you can put windows on a mac,
why not mac on the windows machine.
If they do it, fine, if not, so what.
I already said I'm a windows guy,
and I would like to learn the mac,
but I won't pay the price it costs for me to learn it.
My son, yes, majoring in Creative Writing,
any tools he thinks he needs I'll do my best to get it.
That's why I posted on this thread-
cause there is a mac user here close.
Told you why I got it and more.
Maybe get some OPERATING TIPS.
Then a witch hunt for a bad guy?
pffft bs and more from non-mac users
It's business as usual.
I'm throwing a few ideas around, get over it.
I don't have all the facts and haven't seen 'em posted here.
Like a mac can create a ntfs partition on any MS windows comp.
Why can't Windows do a mac partition?
Don't know. Some kind of "deal" in corporate computer crap.
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I didn't label MS as the 'bad guy', sheesh!
They are just companies doing what they do.
Have to pass on the reading up,
I don't care, nor could I do a dam thing about it.
However, I do appreciate the info.
I just thought if you can put windows on a mac,
why not mac on the windows machine.
If they do it, fine, if not, so what.
I already said I'm a windows guy,
and I would like to learn the mac,
but I won't pay the price it costs for me to learn it.
My son, yes, majoring in Creative Writing,
any tools he thinks he needs I'll do my best to get it.
That's why I posted on this thread-
cause there is a mac user here close.
Told you why I got it and more.
Maybe get some OPERATING TIPS.
Then a witch hunt for a bad guy?
pffft bs and more from non-mac users
It's business as usual.
I'm throwing a few ideas around, get over it.
I don't have all the facts and haven't seen 'em posted here.
Like a mac can create a ntfs partition on any MS windows comp.
Why can't Windows do a mac partition?
Don't know. Some kind of "deal" in corporate computer crap.
-cmpm
Is this a poem?
-
Sure is Creative Writing :)
-
;D lol, thanks, just talking here
i can't hold no ill feelings about any of this
can't afford 'em
i've learned tons here from you all
expect i'll learn more
if i can remember or look it up
1st thing that goes-memory-can't think of the 2nd....
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Neither the 9400M or the 9600M GT on the MacBook Pro are anywhere *near* "top end". The dell has a ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4670 which should be fairly decent - comparable at the least.
<snip />
ATI Mobility Radeon™ HD4650 graphics card with 1GB vRAM-great for games and movies
-JavaJones
The 4670 is pretty comparable... until you look at the pixel pipelines. the 9600 can pump more graphics through easily, despite being an earlier video card...
-wraith808
And you're basing that assertion on what, exactly? Here are some benchmarks
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-Graphics-Cards-Benchmark-List.844.0.html
9600M:
3DMark01:26807 3DMark03:14889 3DMark05:9592 3DMark06:5063
4670:
3DMark01:24975 3DMark03:22295 3DMark05:12614 3DMark06:6842
The only test the 9600 excels at is a much older and simpler one (3D Mark 01). All the newer, more complex tests are dominated by the 4670.
and the macbook that I was looking at had a 7200 RPM hard drive... another significant upgrade. Add to that the fact that you can switch graphics cards to increase battery life- I have that on my VAIO, and that was a pretty decent upgrade also...
The Dell config also had a 7200RPM HD, and it would be a very cheap upgrade in any case, hardly making up the difference in cost for any of the other configs. In fact I could have put a much faster and lower power using SSD in any of the configs I posted and still been below the Mac's cost.
- Oshyan
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The pixel pipelines do show up in the 3DMark01 tests.. thats the reason that it does better. For this reason, it's good enough for most practical applications, and that was my point. If you add the newest gee-whiz features graphical upgrades, then yes, you'll fall a bit shorter. But that's if you're buying for gaming pretty much, which isn't the greatest percentage of users out there...
And as far as pricing, when I did mine:
Dell Studio XPS 16: $2128
Sony VAIO: 1998
HP HDX: 1998
MacBook Pro: 2399
Is it more? Yes... I never said it wasn't. However, if you look at the lower end MacBooks vs the lower end Windows PCs, you can get a laptop for $400 (or less) while you're at $1000 for the entry into the MacBook arena. Which still says
The price for a Mac on the lower end is more expensive, but as you scale up, the price isn't that much different, I've found.
-
1st thing that goes-memory-can't think of the 2nd....
-cmpm
;D Once your memory goes, you can just forget it.
-
Neither the 9400M or the 9600M GT on the MacBook Pro are anywhere *near* "top end". The dell has a ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4670 which should be fairly decent - comparable at the least.-JavaJones
I was going to post the exact same thing, but to be fair that's not an Apple-only experience. Most laptops in general do not have top-end graphics capabilities.
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I can install MS windows on a Mac.
I can't install Mac on a Computer built for MS windows.
So you say it's apple's fault.
I don't really know.
If hackers can do it, certainly ms can.-cmpm
To understand the reasons of why you can't install Apple's OS on a computer built for Windows you have to understand the process. Apple, just like every other computer manufacturer, specs out and designs the motherboard that goes into their computers. The key difference between a motherboard made for an Apple computer and one made for any Windows PC is that Apple has a custom-made chip integrated into the motherboard that is exclusive to Apple & no other PC manufacturer has access to.
When you go to try to install Apple's OS one of the first things it does is check to make sure that custom chip is present on the motherboard & everything is legit. If the OS installer isn't able to detect that chip then the OS will not be able to be installed.
Apple is the only one legally allowed to make this chip and they won't sell it to any other computer manufacturer. Now with the situation being the way it is the only way to install an Apple OS on a non-Apple computer is to either clone the chip and include it on a motherboard which would be costly and illegal or to hack the Apple OS to remove detection for the custom chip which is also illegal.
I hope this explanation helps you see that through this custom chip Apple controls what kind of hardware you can install their OS on & they don't want anyone to be able to install it on any hardware they aren't making a profit on.
Hope this helps.
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Neither the 9400M or the 9600M GT on the MacBook Pro are anywhere *near* "top end". The dell has a ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4670 which should be fairly decent - comparable at the least.-JavaJones
I was going to post the exact same thing, but to be fair that's not an Apple-only experience. Most laptops in general do not have top-end graphics capabilities.
-Innuendo
And my point on the video card is that really only matters if you're looking at gaming. I have a gaming box- I'm buying this for work and to do iPhone stuff. Doing that, the 9600 pushes enough pixels to be at a good enough for the use level... most of the apps that I'm going to use are going to be at the 3DMark01 levels of advanced graphics use... Macs aren't really for gaming, so you buy the tool for what you're looking to do...
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And my point on the video card is that really only matters if you're looking at gaming. I have a gaming box- I'm buying this for work and to do iPhone stuff. Doing that, the 9600 pushes enough pixels to be at a good enough for the use level... most of the apps that I'm going to use are going to be at the 3DMark01 levels of advanced graphics use... Macs aren't really for gaming, so you buy the tool for what you're looking to do...
-wraith808
And I agree with everything you just said. My only issue was someone (was it you?) said that the 9600 was a top end graphics card. It's not. It's a very capable solution for a large percentage of people and uses, but it's not a top end solution.
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It's hilarious to me that, this far into the 21st century, we are still arguing on behalf of proprietary hardware and software in one form or another. Today, the "typical user's" interaction with their computer is the browser, not the OS. Since all browsers are cross-platform -- oh wait, not Microsoft's IE -- you should use the OS you're willing to tolerate.
In some ways, we might as well be arguing whether we arrived by plane, train, or automobile.
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Today, the "typical user's" interaction with their computer is the browser, not the OS. Since all browsers are cross-platform -- oh wait, not Microsoft's IE -- you should use the OS you're willing to tolerate.-zridling
All the people I know with computers, ranging from 13 to 67, gauge their user interaction by the apps and games they use. The only use they have for the browser usually is to obtain more data to use with their games and apps, i.e. information for book reports, downloadable content for games, music for their mp3 players, etc.
When these people go to upgrade their computers, or to buy a new one, the choice of browser never enters into it. They base their decisions on needing to run Micrsoft Word or Final Cut or Garage Band or Half Life 2.
Now if the days of cloud computing finally arrive then I agree it will be all about the web browser, but every single one of these 13 to 70 year olds I know do not like the concept of cloud computing at all.
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All the people I know with computers, ranging from 13 to 67, gauge their user interaction by the apps and games they use. The only use they have for the browser usually is to obtain more data to use with their games and apps, i.e. information for book reports, downloadable content for games, music for their mp3 players, etc.
When these people go to upgrade their computers, or to buy a new one, the choice of browser never enters into it. They base their decisions on needing to run Micrsoft Word or Final Cut or Garage Band or Half Life 2.
Now if the days of cloud computing finally arrive then I agree it will be all about the web browser, but every single one of these 13 to 70 year olds I know do not like the concept of cloud computing at all.
-Innuendo
And though the browser does come into it, even advanced users are not using the cloud nearly enough to say that the choice of PC and OS doesn't come into play.
-
Yes - must agree with wraith and innuendo here. I can agree that perhaps a typical user spends most of his or her time on a computer in a web browser, but the OS becomes extremely important the minute they want to change the background (wallpaper) on their desktop or type out and print off a letter or a recipe. Can they find the system settings easily? Will the OS run the software they want to run? Does the OS support their printer?, etc.
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And I agree with everything you just said. My only issue was someone (was it you?) said that the 9600 was a top end graphics card. It's not. It's a very capable solution for a large percentage of people and uses, but it's not a top end solution.
-Innuendo
It's not *the* top end- but it's more advanced than most laptop video cards.
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It's not *the* top end- but it's more advanced than most laptop video cards.-wraith808
And on this point we also agree. It's a darn sight better than the Intel graphics solution you find in most laptops. Blech!
-
One thing we seem to be missing is that apple competes in the high end, which most of us here don't care much about.
For example, not many here are in for a top-of-the-line 27-inch monitor. But if you were, you could get a free imac (http://blog.expandrive.com/2009/10/20/apples-releases-new-27-led-cinema-display-comes-with-a-free-mac/) :)
-
Now *that* is cool... I might be able to get that, and keep my VAIO... hmmm...
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Hey, that's kind of cool/interesting actually, hehe. I'm not about to spend $1700 for any monitor, whether it comes with a computer or not, but still it's an interesting deal.
I don't think I missed the "Apple aims for the high end" thing at all though. I pointed out a comparison with BMW in my post if I recall. Because of that aim I don't think it's possible (nor is it likely their goal) for them to ever have a "majority" of the market.
- Oshyan
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Apple is "High-End" ... In the same context as Paris Hilton, they're both flashy, obnoxious, & transparent.
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Apple is "High-End" ... In the same context as Paris Hilton, they're both flashy, obnoxious, & transparent.
-Stoic Joker
:-* :-* :-*
-
Apple is "High-End" ... In the same context as Paris Hilton, they're both flashy, obnoxious, & transparent.
-Stoic Joker
As said by Borat when he finds out his wife has died
"High Five!"
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Oh my.. and someone said there's no Apple bias here :P
-
Oh my.. and someone said there's no Apple bias here :P
-wraith808
Looks as if they were right, doesn't it?
- a no Apple bias
:)
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For the cost of the windows OS you can have both mac osx and windows on the same machine with a mac which has bootcamp already in the osx. Macs are made to run windows too, without any extra cost except the windows os.
Somehow I think that's an advantage...doh...
Switch os' almost like switching users, although you do have to reboot to load the other.
Might be able to run both side by side soon, if they haven't already done it.
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Oh my.. and someone said there's no Apple bias here :P
-wraith808
Looks as if they were right, doesn't it?
- a no Apple bias
:)
-Dormouse
Heh. I guess I left myself open for that. But for all of the computers as tools talk, it was proven wrong in the latter part of the thread methinks. ;) Personally, they'd have to pry my windows out of my cold dead hands... the hardware is another thing :) As long as I can run Windows on it, it's fine... it's the features (and right now, I want to run OSX and Windows on the same box)
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For the cost of the windows OS you can have both mac osx and windows on the same machine with a mac which has bootcamp already in the osx. Macs are made to run windows too, without any extra cost except the windows os.
Somehow I think that's an advantage...doh...
Switch os' almost like switching users, although you do have to reboot to load the other.
Might be able to run both side by side soon, if they haven't already done it.
-cmpm
With virtualization, we are already there. You can download ESXi (or equivalent hypervisor), install it, then install as many OS's as your hard drive and memory can handle (right now, it is in the vicinity of 10 OS's on common server specs. For the 27" iMac mentioned above, I would think 4 should work okay - maybe more). You can even have them all open at the same time running multiple programs each.
With other solutions, you may even be able to work with them seemlessly. By this, I mean cut a line out of something open on the Mac, and paste it into a completely different program on the Windows side (or Linux for that matter). Talk about cross-platform programming!
I am just waiting for a good Client-side Hypervisor so I can shut down the machine(s) gracefully. Right now, the hypervisor front is still mostly in love with servers only. They work, but you could do so much more with the hypervisor to make it client-friendly I would think.
EDIT: I might be slightly off on this assessment, at least with the common hypervisors. I do not know if there is a good way to install OSX on ANY hypervisor. The hardware can be virtualized fine, but I don't know enough about OSX as to how to get a copy to install, nor if it will properly install at all.
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... the hardware is another thing :) As long as I can run Windows on it, it's fine... it's the features (and right now, I want to run OSX and Windows on the same box)
-wraith808
Hear, hear! Linux too for me.... :Thmbsup:
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Atwood on PCs vs Macs. Oldie but goodie (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000186.html)
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Atwood on PCs vs Macs. Oldie but goodie (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000186.html)
-urlwolf
the comments are more informative (both sides) and entertaining than the article itself (a good few from this year actually).
there's a link in the comments there for this NSFW (http://cache.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/iProduct.gif) article "Announcing the new apple iProduct" - doesnt look NSFW but some of the text is of a delicate nature :)
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Related article. (Sorry haven't been keeping up with the posts)
http://thinksimplenow.com/happiness/6-steps-to-eliminate-limited-beliefs/
I consider myself a frugal person and I’ve always thought that it was a good thing. However, I recently discovered that, while frugality is a worthy and useful quality, the root of my own frugality is based on some limited beliefs that I’ve held.
It all started with the story of a little dell laptop, and the story went something like this… The computer I use every day is a five-year-old Dell laptop. It was originally my work laptop from Amazon.com, until the hardware lease expired, and I was allowed to purchase it for $68.
This little machine has served me well, but due to its nature (ahem - it runs on Windows) - its gradual decline in reliability and performance was noticeable (even after re-installing Windows and doubling the RAM). I found myself becoming increasingly frustrated by the need to reboot my computer at in-opportune moments, and the random crashes and slowness of Photoshop - which I frequently use.
Last week, Jeremy watched as I was hunched over my little laptop, frustrated once again by the slowness of its functions, hinting of the need to reboot. I cursed out loud, not wanting to reboot because I had too many browser tabs open; so I persisted, insisting that I could tough it out. He turned to me, and with a concerned expression, said, “Honey, let’s get you a new Macbook and an external display. I think you’re really gonna love it and you’ll be so much happier and productive.”
I have resisted converting to Apple for about ten years. My excuse was always that I couldn’t stand the keyboard differences. While this was somewhat true, it was also an excuse to stay within my comfort zone and to resist change. That evening, however, I reached a tipping point in my dissatisfaction with PCs, and decided to give Mac a try (while trying to ignore the resistance in my stomach).
So, Jeremy and his friend Dave took me to the Apple Store. Once inside, I immediately felt like a kid in a candy store, drooling over the sleekness of the machines and the beautifully minimalistic store design. We walked into the store with the idea of buying the cheapest laptop + display combo, but when I saw that the current generation of 23″ monitors have a glossy reflective display, I knew that it would distract me more than be a tool of inspiration and productivity.
Then we spotted it, the 30″ Cinema HD Display, which has a non-reflective matte screen and the higher price tag to go with it. The three of us gathered in front of the model display “oooowing and ahhhhing” at the enormous mass of aluminum beauty.
After playing with it for about ten minutes, pulling up Think Simple Now in the browser, and testing out Photoshop with great satisfaction, Jeremy proclaimed, “Babe, let’s get you this.” Dave smiled widely.
And then, it happened, I heard a peculiar voice inside my head say, “You don’t deserve it“.
I observed as the feeling glistened over me. While I was excited for and had always lusted over the Apple Cinema Display, I felt the guilt hover over me and turn the hope into shame, for even wanting it.
I felt sad and pathetic that I had picked this belief up somewhere along the way, and have been unconsciously carrying it with me, for god knows how long. Memories of my childhood began flashing in front of my eyes…
Afterwards
I shared this belief and emotional discovery with Jeremy, and he stared into my eyes with great empathy and conviction and said, “If anyone deserves it, it’s you!” He continued with tears in his eyes, “Think of how many hours a day you sit in front of a computer, and think of the number people you can help if you are happier with your work station.” My heart melted, and a feeling of relief washed over me. He was right, but I still needed some time to let that sink in and start to believe it myself.
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Curtis Franklin (http://www.infoworld.com/d/mac/pc-vs-mac-deathmatch-snow-leopard-beats-windows-7-331) agrees with Superboy!
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Curtis Franklin (http://www.infoworld.com/d/mac/pc-vs-mac-deathmatch-snow-leopard-beats-windows-7-331) agrees with Superboy!
-zridling
Absolutely no ill towards you Zaine but that comparison linked is laughably naive and illogical. It baffles my sometimes how far removed some people are from reality.
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Absolutely no ill towards you Zaine but that comparison linked is laughably naive and illogical. It baffles my sometimes how far removed some people are from reality.
-Eóin
Absolutely no ill towards you Zaine but that comparison linked is laughably naive and illogical. It baffles my sometimes how far removed some people are from reality.
-Eóin
I feel much the same way about the the thinksimple link/story - it is insulting to the intelligence, at least where it touches on the Apple vs Windows debate (the six steps to eliminating limiting beliefs, which is the main point of the post are probably fine - didn't read 'em with any great atention to detail). The guy's gotten 5 years out of his Dell for Chrissakes! My mum and dad' bought a refurbished iMac G5 running Tiger about 2 ½ years ago (which makes it, plus or minus, about four or five years old). It was shit hot when they got it. However, after about 8 months I quadrupled the RAM (to 2GB) because my mum was starting to complain about a general "slow down" and it was snappier for a while. Today it is no speed demon, but if runs OK. However, they had serious issues with their Epson all-in-one not functioning properly (yes, I know, third party hardware and drivers) and switched that out for a small HP laserjet, which I've already had to troubleshoot twice for connectivity issues. Thus, overall, the performance of the machine has degraded. Every couple of months I mess about with it and claw back some speed and harddrive space for them.
My point? Why is this guy blaming the platform for problems that sound more related to running (I assume) newer software under an older OS on old hardware (specific blame probably lies with bus speed and CPU architecture)? If the Dell (which presumably was designed and certified to run XP) won't run nice and fast with a base install of XP, I'll eat my hat! My guess is that he re-installs Windows, bitches and whines about the length of the re-installation process, reboots for updates, and then doesn't pause to draw a breath before cramming additional security, productivity and other software that he uses on to it, thereby closely replicating whatever was causing the original problem! Think simple my ass, more like simplistic thinking!
Sorry, I just get pissed off by these illogical leaps that people make... this one reminds me of the correlation that a headline writer drew between playing Starcraft and a random act of violence: Starcraft player charged after knife attacky (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=20234.0) from a while back. "Mentally ill man charged after knife attack" doesn't have quite the same cachet. All I'm sayiing is that the blog writer has drunk the Kool-Aid, even if he's still running his Dell and pining for a Mac that he doesn't seem to be able to convince himself that he deserves because of conflict between his frugality and the bitter taste left by the Apple tax.
Come back tomorrow, I'll tell you what I really think :o
Rant over :-[
EDIT: removed replicated paragraphs
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I suppose I should also add to that the bits I found so outrageous were the comments and conclusions on security which seemed to be based on nothing other than random notions.
That combined with how little concerned he seems to be about backwards compatibility meant I just couldn't take the comparison seriously.
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Just skimmed the Curtis Franklin piece and agree with Eóin - given that the end result is so close (overall Snow Leopard is awared a 9.3/10 vs Windows 7's 9.1/10), the conclusion that Snow Leopard is better for professionals seems rather arbitrary to me. After reading it, I'd call the whole issue a draw, not announce a winner. But then, the magazine is trying to sell subscriptions...
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The one thing I have a problem with is people continuously compare built-in applications between the two operating systems. How can you do that with microsoft being forced to provide things as addons (downloadable) rather than built-in? Of course Snow Leopard has nice built in apps, windows simply cannot bundle applications anymore for fear of some judicial body crying afoul.
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Yes! That is a point that I had meant to make: people are now criticizing MS for taking apps out of Windows 7 (and Vista)... MS can't win - put the apps in and they're abusing they're not competing fairly, take 'em out and they're not offering as good value as Apple does. MS can do nothing right while Apple can do nothing wrong, it seems.
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Please note, this is one of the FIRST POINTS that this author makes and consequently makes me lose any thought of credibility for them. Any article which criticizes MS, or users for that matter, for not including applications needs to look at what happens when MS does so. MS realized that the browser was an important part of the computing industry back in the Win9x days. What did they do? They included it in the OS and made it a part of the operating system. This opened up numerous opportunities for the applications we have now. People cried afoul. Yes, MS did some tactics which were uncalled for in the day, but appear to have learned. The EU requiring MS unbundle IE in a Win7 E edition is stupid and a waste of Microsofts time and money, as well as the taxpayers paying to support the EU for that decision. Users are free to choose a browser, media player, calculator or toilet paper dispenser program of choice, they just need to be educated. Simply because the end user chose to NOT educate themselves and use what was provided is not the fault of Microsoft but of the third parties for not advertising their products in a manner that makes the end user want to use them.
In the end, these articles serve no real purpose for me. I tell people to use what they like, what makes them happy, and what WORKS. No, I do not mean "Just works" as Apple has been known to claim for the OS which does anything but. If people buy a MAC PC (Macs are PCs after all) and are happy with it, so be it, if they buy a normal Windows based PC, so be it. If it makes them happy and does what they need it to, in the end that is all that matters. The same can go for linux. When/if linux ever makes itself usable by the masses, it will succeed. I will not recommend an OS or platform to anyone solely for the purpose of change. With change comes headaches, despite what the FOSS and alternative platform users will lead you to believe, and with those headaches comes support. If I move someone to linux or Apple, I have to help them when their cross stitching program does not work, or when the printer that "Just Works" for them does not work.
In the end, its about choice, not about what vendor is copying who, or what vendor is easier to use for the reviewer de jour, it's the end user which ultimately matters.
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Honestly, if mac could not run windows,
I would not even consider a mac system.
Unless they were FAR superior.
Funny, the mac users I know, who have always used a mac,
are frustrated with windows, and return to macs,
and that's not from just one or two people,
but hundreds of teachers I know in our school district.
And yes, Apple moved into the schools right off the bat.
Smart move, back then.
Weren't the Apple and Windows people together at one time?
Long ago?
Or is that my faded memory.......
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Like you guys have said. Even based on what the author of the article himself says the 1 point difference in compatibility is wrong. Never mind what the reality is.
-
Related article. (Sorry haven't been keeping up with the posts)
http://thinksimplenow.com/happiness/6-steps-to-eliminate-limited-beliefs/-Paul Keith
Wow...one more guy on the internet discovers that a brand new computer looks better, works better and has fewer problems than one that's five years old.
Hope Obama wasn't hoping on winning a Nobel two years in a row...this guy looks like he's got the inside track on next year's award.
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Related article. (Sorry haven't been keeping up with the posts)
http://thinksimplenow.com/happiness/6-steps-to-eliminate-limited-beliefs/-Paul Keith
Wow...one more guy on the internet discovers that a brand new computer looks better, works better and has fewer problems than one that's five years old.
Hope Obama wasn't hoping on winning a Nobel two years in a row...this guy looks like he's got the inside track on next year's award.
-Innuendo
Crap! Innuendo - you managed to say in two sentences what I tried, but failed, to say in about four paragraphs :-[ :Thmbsup:
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Innuendo: Remind me when I donate again to send you some credits. Your post made me laugh in a manner which I haven't done since our beloved mouser told me about his air conditioning woes.
*NOTE* Yes mousey, we have not forgotten *END NOTE*
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Josh - thank you for reminding me! Off to send credits now 8)
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Thank you both for the kind words and credits....and now here I sit trying to figure out a way to inform my grade school teachers that being a smart alec can indeed be profitable. As you can probably imagine at the time I was unable to to get them to come around to my point of view.
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Thank you both for the kind words and credits....and now here I sit trying to figure out a way to inform my grade school teachers that being a smart alec can indeed be profitable. As you can probably imagine at the time I was unable to to get them to come around to my point of view.
-Innuendo
That laugh was worth $1 :D :D :D
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Wow! I'm surprised how sensitive and defensive some Windows users have become as other OSes attract new users. Didn't understand the "gamer stabbing somebody" link, nor that someone who likes OSX is "removed from reality," nor the hostility toward someone/anyone who chooses not to use Windows. It makes me laugh because it sounds like you're all saying: How dare that SOB -- or anyone -- come to DonationCoder.com and talk about anything other than Microsoft software!
As I've said before, if you want this to be a Windows-only forum, then please let me know; I have better distractions where the eggshells aren't so thin. ;)
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Wow! I'm surprised how sensitive and defensive some Windows users have become as other OSes attract new users. Didn't understand the "gamer stabbing somebody" link, nor that someone who likes OSX is "removed from reality," nor the hostility toward someone/anyone who chooses not to use Windows. It makes me laugh because it sounds like you're all saying: How dare that SOB -- or anyone -- come to DonationCoder.com and talk about anything other than Microsoft software!
As I've said before, if you want this to be a Windows-only forum, then please let me know; I have better distractions where the eggshells aren't so thin. ;)
-zridling
Yeah, I'm a little disappointed this thread turned out that way. I really do believe Macs and unix have things to offer and if i were Microsoft, I would try to incorporate some of those things. I used to be very defensive myself about anti-Windows comments, but as I've become more objective over the years, I've realized that there are features on other OS's that are attractive, useful, and, yes, just better. The other thing I'm moving away from more is the thought that "well, you can make Windows do whatever it is you want." While I believe that to be true for the most part, I can argue, and in the defense of other OS's, that maybe...just maybe...it SHOULDN'T be that hard to do something like that.
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If my post is taken as attacking, please know that was not the intent. I always tell people to use what works, what makes them happy, and what does the job they need to do. I don't advocate changing for the sake of changing. "Why fix what isn't broken?". I do, however, take offense to the zealots who attack a particular platform because THEY believe their platform is superior. There is no reason to attack any one platform as all platforms have their shortcomings. I am the owner and operator of various different systems running different platforms. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Use what does the job, not what is cool or trendy just so you can be cool and trendy also.
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It's the absence of anything more than a thin veneer of objectivity in the blogs/articles that have been linked to that these posts are pointing out/complaining about. Perhaps we as a whole are "windows-centric" but I hardly think anyone here is blind in their appraisal of Windows. I still maintain that the whole argument is akin to the Chevy versus Ford debate. These OS are different. Deal with it. Why does one necessarily have to be better than the other?
Zaine, I'm sorry if you feel that you're not welcome here, posting as you do from a non-Windows perspective. I'd be very sorry if you allowed those other distractions to take you away from here.
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I think there's two things going on here -
there's been a good bit of gratuitous bashing etc, but, on the other had,
I thought that the responses to both those articles were actually quite reasonable (in fairness, one article wasnt really about mac vs 'pc' at all).
I have noticed in comments on any articles I've read about the topic that the mac users who respond are very reasonable and practical and NOT fanatics. Maybe that's part of the problem here - there arent really any mac users involved in the thread.
Was it last year that nontroppo (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1146) moved to mac and wrote some very impressive stuff here about the OS.
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Wow! I'm surprised how sensitive and defensive some Windows users have become as other OSes attract new users.-zridling
Zaine, I'm sorry you see the discussion that way. I cannot speak for anyone else, but my remarks have only been made to make the point that the grass may seem greener on the other side of the fence, but seldom is. Every OS has its problems & if you are jumping ship from your chosen OS (whatever it may be) to something else, you may indeed be surprised when you are trading one set of problems for another.
I thought everyone else who was pointing out the deficiencies of OS X were making comments in the same spirit, but maybe I missed something. The lesson to carry away from this thread is that if one wants to run OS X as it is a better fit for them then that's fine, but don't believe that "It just works." malarkey the Apple marketing department is churning out as OS X isn't 100% trouble-free, either.
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That's exactly it. From my experiences, the zealots of the particular platforms rarely tell you problems with that platform be it Windows, Mac, Linux, etc. Articles like the one linked are clearly out to prove one platform is superior but in the end, that all depends on the users needs. Who is to say that the author of this article's needs are the same as mine, my fathers, my sister, my neighbor three doors down. Just some food for thought. I ask that article writers be objective.
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You guys are definitely right about tradeoffs when switching. And if a person is aware of those going in, he's far more likely to tolerate them in his choice. There's comfort in immersion, and for 85% of users, the software ocean they swim in is Windows. And even if they spend time in another OS, when they come back to Windows, they're usually more tolerant of its shortcomings.
Indeed, every OS and platform forces adjustments and compromises. At least you guys are fully aware of them, whatever the OS. Thanks.
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I've read through the interesting discussions in this thread and here is my view:
I have personally disliked macs for a long time and for one good reason: its closed source. I can't choose my hardware. Sometime last year, I came across the Hackintosh on Lifehacker which changed my opinion on this. I also had a chance to play with my friend's macbook when he left it with me for a few weeks. I made it my primary machine so that I could get the Mac experience.
My 2 cents:
Compared to Windows XP 32-bit SP3, Mac OS X does feel somewhat more stable. I can't speak for Vista and I never plan to install that on any of my machines. In my practical day to day experience, OS X is not faster than Windows. All my applications run at the same speed. Windows has the advantage of a wide selection of applications and while software manufacturers are improving Mac support, Mac is still ages behind Windows in terms of software choice. I agree that most people only need one good app for one job rather than a dozen and I am no different. But what should that one app be? When it comes to music for example, most Mac users are happy with iTunes. I cannot live without foobar2000, which will probably never be natively ported to Mac due to its dependence on Windows libraries. Of course, there is Parallels and VMware, which I am aware of. But that's another memory and CPU intensive application I need to run to just an extremely light music player (i.e. foobar2000). There are many other such apps that I can think of.
I understand that its not Apple's fault if software makers don't want to support it, but the same can of Linux and the whole driver fiasco with hardware manufacturers. From my experience, OS X is no better than Linux in terms of speed, security and stability, but does have a few more programs that can run on it natively (Adobe, Solidworks etc).
I also don't care how cool or not a machine looks and personally, I hate the one click mouse button. I know that I can plug in an external mouse, but for a laptop, that's another piece of hardware I have to remember to carry around in addition to the charger and its just a hassle. I think that whether we like it or not, Windows is here to stay and will continue to enjoy the majority of the market share. I would like to see Linux (probably Ubuntu) emerge as the main competitor to Windows in the future, something that can be easily achieved with better driver support and a few more software applications.
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Yeah the mousepad is different on the macbookpro.
Interesting even.
1 finger or two fingers operating it.
It knows how many fingers you have on it's pad.
It's a different way of operating the computer.
My son likes it a lot! He had a good wireless but opts for the pad.
I doubt if I would.
Not sure how that pad really works.
I've used a windows laptop pad and hated it.
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Windows has the advantage of a wide selection of applications and while software manufacturers are improving Mac support, Mac is still ages behind Windows in terms of software choice. I agree that most people only need one good app for one job rather than a dozen and I am no different. But what should that one app be? When it comes to music for example, most Mac users are happy with iTunes. I cannot live without foobar2000, which will probably never be natively ported to Mac due to its dependence on Windows libraries. Of course, there is Parallels and VMware, which I am aware of. But that's another memory and CPU intensive application I need to run to just an extremely light music player (i.e. foobar2000). There are many other such apps that I can think of.-icekin
This sums things up quite nicely the focus of what this thread should be about. Choosing a computer is not about the hardware. It's not about the OS. It's not even about the UI. It's all about the software. Foobar2000 is the perfect example of this as well. Love it or hate it (and I confess I can't decide which camp I fall into), Foobar2000 has capabilities that are not available in any other audio player on any computing platform.
People drop by the Foobar2000 forum all the time begging for a port to Mac or Linux and it's just never going to happen due to the way the app has been written. Even running it through Wine & Crossover is a mixed bag and doesn't give you the full capabilities of the program because of the way it is written.
Thanks to those irritating Mac commercials (and I call them irritating not because they are about Macs, but because they tell a person absolutely-frikkin'-nothing about the product they are selling!!!) I get asked a LOT by people if they should buy a PC or a Mac. The first thing I tell them is look at the software for both platforms. Find the software you want (or need) to use and then buy the appropriate computer to run the stuff on. The second thing I tell them is if their circle of friends are computer-centric (discuss computers, software, the internet, etc. a lot) it might be best to buy what your friends have if you want to be included in all the conversations as if you are the odd man out you might feel like an outsider when these topics come up.
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The second thing I tell them is if their circle of friends are computer-centric (discuss computers, software, the internet, etc. a lot) it might be best to buy what your friends have if you want to be included in all the conversations as if you are the odd man out you might feel like an outsider when these topics come up.
-Innuendo
of course that's where people will get help first, so logical to consider the same as they all have - unless you of course you know a helpful friendly forum ;)
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The second thing I tell them is if their circle of friends are computer-centric (discuss computers, software, the internet, etc. a lot) it might be best to buy what your friends have if you want to be included in all the conversations as if you are the odd man out you might feel like an outsider when these topics come up.
-Innuendo
I'm my parents' go-to guy for computer and tech support. I'm a confirmed Windows guy and yet my parents insist on running a Mac. I've been repeating the above advice to them like a mantra for years. Falls on deaf ears!
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I'm my parents' go-to guy for computer and tech support. I'm a confirmed Windows guy and yet my parents insist on running a Mac. I've been repeating the above advice to them like a mantra for years. Falls on deaf ears!
-Darwin
Next time they have a problem feign ignorance & tell them they'll have to take it to a shop & pay to have it fixed. Quickly add that if they had a Windows PC you'd be able to fix the problem with no cash outlay. :)
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I'm a confirmed Windows guy and yet my parents insist on running a Mac-Darwin
were they influenced by the advertising or what :) ('hip' parents?)
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hmm 8) this thread will never end ;D
but, as a 'old boy' wich started his computer life on a spectrum zx1, c64, atari, amiga to dos 3.11 till windows 7 now... there is just one thing you have to learn with microsoft - MAKE FROM YOUR RUNNING SYSTEM A BACKUP and put all your important data on a second hd, dvd and/or nas.
try new software not at home, go with a usb-stick to a friend, maybe not to your best one *LOL*, and try it there or go in a internet cafe... or try it on a virtual pc - and you have no problems at all!
ohh, and of course... don't forget to save your registry... at least once a day...
and if you deinstall a programm... see in the drawer 'common files' to... and in the appdata drawer under local and... and clean the registry at least twice...
did i say that you should make a backup before you deinstall a programm?
hmm... is there anything else or did i forgot something?
oh yea, as i'm swiss-german (Grüezi zäme!), my english is not ferry goot, sorrz
have a nice day!
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ohh, and of course... don't forget to save your registry... at least once a day...
and if you deinstall a programm... see in the drawer 'common files' to... and in the appdata drawer under local and... and clean the registry at least twice...
did i say that you should make a backup before you deinstall a programm?-DFrench
Gosh, I've been using Windows since Windows 3.1 and I've never had to do any of that stuff to keep my Windows running smoothly. I have to wonder what kind of programs you install. :)
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I've never once had to backup my registry, minus individual keys for program settings that I want saved before I format. I too wonder what types of programs you are installing that cause such a hassle upon uninstall.
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I've never once had to backup my registry, minus individual keys for program settings that I want saved before I format. I too wonder what types of programs you are installing that cause such a hassle upon uninstall.
-Josh
hmm, it was a joke - maybe you can hear the bells now...
and, if you had never a problem with the registry... good for you. as such a windows pro you should know that a) microsoft never tells everything about windows... b) the 'real secrets' are in the registry... c) that just a little error or fault entry in the registry and windows don't even boot!
what can 'destroy' the registry? as i life in greece - the land of the powercuts ;) - and that's enough. even before i was 'backing up' my pc's - i organized a ups!
and that's just one of tousend possiblilities to 'destroy' the registry.
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hmm, it was a joke - maybe you can hear the bells now...-DFrench
The joke probably didn't translate to English well. No worries...
and, if you had never a problem with the registry... good for you. as such a windows pro you should know that a) microsoft never tells everything about windows... b) the 'real secrets' are in the registry... c) that just a little error or fault entry in the registry and windows don't even boot!
Yes, that's true, but to be fair every computer operating system ever written has a set of important core files where if one of them gets corrupted that OS will not boot.
And if powercuts are a problem where you live you probably should look into buying an uninterruptible power supply.
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And if powercuts are a problem where you live you probably should look into buying an uninterruptible power supply.
-Innuendo
He's got one!
even boot!
what can 'destroy' the registry? as i life in greece - the land of the powercuts ;) - and that's enough. even before i was 'backing up' my pc's - i organized a ups!
-DFrench
To comment on DFrench's original post, though, I haven't had single registry issue since I switched from XP to first Vista 32 bit, then Vista 64 bit and finally Windows 7 64 bit... I'm not sure how much of that has to do with the 32 bit to 64 bit switcheroo, though (I made it about 4 months after switching to Vista).
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I can't remember any registry corruption issues since moving from Win9x and FAT32 to NT and NTFS... well, except for a few instances of me writing device drivers with nasty bugs, but those have always been tested on a dedicated system :)
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on xp, 32 or 64 bit i had never a problem with the registry.
with vista (64 bit) i had 4...
first and that was the best... i installed the prog 'registry system wizard' first on virtual pc, everything fine, also i installed the programm on the 'real' pc. reboot... nothing happens, black screen
second, after installing nero 8 (original dvd), the same, on virtual pc no problem... in the middle of the installation... boing and the pc crashed!
third was a reinstall of newsbin pro, installed the prog, started it the first time, my name and serial number etc... ALT+F4... started the programm again and the pc crashed!
the last was probably my fault... had to install a new device (external blueray player/burner)
but now with windows 7 64 bit i have no problems... but i make at least once a week a backup of the registry.
as one of my pc is working 24h/7days, and a backup from my server (local webserver, xampp) and gfx files are made every night on a nas and a external hd.
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Earlier in this thread someone said that if Windows is so great, how come those who've switched to OSX aren't switching back. That's a good point.
But, I am an example of someone who switched back. That is, I still have my Mac machine, and it's on, but I only use it occasionally. I never liked the OS, and found it to be about as much trouble as my XP machine was. - It has trouble working with some of my peripherals, it occasionally doesn't want to find an external drive, and locks up a surprising amount, requiring a hard re-boot.
- For me, it wasn't particularly intuitive to learn to use, either.
- I was always running into software limitations. That is, in the Windows world there is a plethora of software available for any little thing you might want to do, ranging in price from free to expensive (and with commensurate sophistication, support and documentation levels). In the Mac world there's usually one, two, or maybe three softwares for any given thing you want to do, and rarely is there a free one.
- If your OS version is a couple of years old, you begin to find that new software won't work with it, forcing you to upgrade. In the Windows world, you can reasonably expect your OS to last you for the better part of a decade.
- I also found that when I did have trouble with my Mac, it was difficult to find a solution on the web. With the PC, I can almost always find a solution somewhere.
- Once upon a time, many years ago, all I wanted from my computer is that it "just works", without me having to go under the hood -- either in the depths of the OS or inside the case. However, I've come to rather like becoming self-sufficient in upgrading/fixing/modding my computer and/or its software. The Mac, on the other hand, wants me to just shut up and look at the pretty window. Personally, I find that a bit insulting.
Sure, a Mac is a cool looking machine, and uses a spiffy looking OS, but like that Coding Horror article, my computer is a tool, not an accessory to my lifestyle. I recognize that not everyone thinks this way, and everyone operates the computer they prefer for their own deeply personal reasons. For years I've driven Buicks and have been supremely happy with them, but my brother wouldn't dream of owning anything other than a Toyota.
What crawls up my shorts, however, is the snobbish, sneering attitude of the Mac fanboys. I don't think they even realize just how obnoxious they are. Here's a great opinion column (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/feb/05/comment.media) that was published in The Guardian a couple of years ago that sums it up well. I reread it occasionally whenever the noise from the Mac fan community gets a little too much to bear.
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Awesome! Thanks for the link to the Guardian piece, grapeshot :Thmbsup: A bit OTT, but I loved it.
Here's a representative quote:
When I sit down to use a Mac, the first thing I think is, "I hate Macs", and then I think, "Why has this rubbish aspirational ornament only got one mouse button?" Losing that second mouse button feels like losing a limb. If the ads were really honest, Webb (the English comedian playing a Mac) would be standing there with one arm, struggling to open a packet of peanuts while Mitchell (the English comedian playing the PC) effortlessly tore his apart with both hands. But then, if the ads were really honest, Webb would be dressed in unbelievably po-faced avant-garde clothing with a gigantic glowing apple on his back. And instead of conducting a proper conversation, he would be repeatedly congratulating himself for looking so cool, and banging on about how he was going to use his new laptop to write a novel, without ever getting round to doing it, like a mediocre idiot.
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Excellent post grapeshot.
If your OS version is a couple of years old, you begin to find that new software won't work with it, forcing you to upgrade. In the Windows world, you can reasonably expect your OS to last you for the better part of a decade.
I hear that from Mac users once in a while and to me it's almost incomprehensible, I don't mean solely from a technical stand point but from a practical one.
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Excellent post grapeshot.
If your OS version is a couple of years old, you begin to find that new software won't work with it, forcing you to upgrade. In the Windows world, you can reasonably expect your OS to last you for the better part of a decade.
I hear that from Mac users once in a while and to me it's almost incomprehensible, I don't mean solely from a technical stand point but from a practical one.
-rgdot
Agreed. I have OS X 10.4 installed on my iBook (highest OS version I can install on a PPC Mac) and am constantly confronted by software that I cannot update on it or install in the first place because the OS is "too old". grapeshot's first comment:
It has trouble working with some of my peripherals, it occasionally doesn't want to find an external drive, and locks up a surprising amount, requiring a hard re-boot.
-grapeshot
Resonates as well, given my experiences maintaining my parents' machine and my iBook. I like OS X enough, but it is hardly more stable than my Windows (2k, XP, Vista 32 bit, 7 64 bit) machines. Granted, I don't have access to a Leopard or Snow Leopard machine, but still...
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Heh. It's funny how the ads in the UK seem to have gotten the exact same two types of characters to represent the Mac and the PC, too. That can't have been a coincidence. Surely that indicates the universality of the essential difference between PC users and Mac users?
But, to be fair, most Mac users seem entirely satisfied with their machine. I just happened to be one who disliked it almost from the start. I've had it for over three years now, and the only use I get out of it for transferring my recorded TV shows to DVD. Oh, and I use the iTunes store sometimes. Otherwise I find iTunes to be way overkill for my "not an iPod" personal media player. Having it on my Mac at least prevents me from having to install iTunes on my PC while occasionally allowing me to see what I might want to buy on iTunes. (Not that much, usually. But then, I'm not a kid who needs all the latest releases from all the newest artists.)
I hear that from Mac users once in a while and to me it's almost incomprehensible, I don't mean solely from a technical stand point but from a practical one
I was dumbfounded to discover that new versions of Firefox and OpenOffice won't work on my version of OSX. I read last year that nearly half of all Mac users still operate Panther, so why no one will make software that runs on Panther is beyond me. Snow Leopard, which is imminent, won't be able to to run on my "old" hardware. I think Mac users must have deeper pockets than I do, and can afford to keep upgrading their OS and their computer. Meanwhile, I keep getting annoying nag messages from both Firefox and OpenOffice that I need to upgrade. (Every time it makes me gnash my teeth and tear my hair at the loony Catch-22 of it all. Now... to be sure, over the years, my various PCs have annoyed me, but none of my Windows machines, not even my Vista one, has caused me to gnash my teeth!)
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Oh, and I use the iTunes store sometimes. Otherwise I find iTunes to be way overkill for my "not an iPod" personal media player. Having it on my Mac at least prevents me from having to install iTunes on my PC while occasionally allowing me to see what I might want to buy on iTunes.
-grapeshot
OMG! That's hilarious - EXACTLY how I feel about being one of the unwashed masses who is content to listen to music on a media player that Steven Jobs hasn't annointed! I also feel the same way about iTunes under Windows - I won't install it or QuickTime - and the use to which I put it on my iBook ;D
WRT the rest of your comments - I presume that it all comes back to "controlling" the product. By locking out older shareware applications in anything but the most recent versions of OSX, Apple ensures that there are fewer hiccoughs when users try to run older software. It's also probably seen as being a good way to encourage people to upgrade to later OSX releases. Not working if Panther is still as prevalent as it seems.
EDIT: word choice
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- If your OS version is a couple of years old, you begin to find that new software won't work with it, forcing you to upgrade. In the Windows world, you can reasonably expect your OS to last you for the better part of a decade.
-grapeshot
It seems that in the land of Mac it's not only the forced OS upgrades, but the forced hardware upgrades as well. For example, Windows 7 has just been released & there have been numerous reports of people happily running it on computers that are 4-5 years old or older. I don't believe I have ever heard of a MacOS release that could be installed and run well on a 4 year old Mac.
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I don't believe I have ever heard of a MacOS release that could be installed and run well on a 4 year old Mac.
-Innuendo
My little iBook was 4 years old when Tiger was released and about 7 years old when I upgraded it to Tiger. Having said that... it's got 576MB of RAM and a 500Mhz CPU and it is pretty darn slow... painful, actually. I've actually got Office 2008 installed on it but don't use it much because it's unbearably slow. I keep meaning to uninstall it but haven't gotten around to it. My Win2k machine, on the other hand, with 512MB RAM and a 600Mhz CPU is much, much quicker. FWIW, the Win2k machine is a year older than the iBook and runs Office 2007 perfectly. Of course, Win2k and Tiger came out 5 years apart, so not really a fair comparison.
PS Both notebooks have 8MB dedicated video memory (same cards, in fact) :P
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Here's a great opinion column (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/feb/05/comment.media) that was published in The Guardian a couple of years ago that sums it up well.-grapeshot
I don't know if I'd call that an opinion column...unless...when you typed opinion you meant to type wild-eyed rant. The author is even a British comedy writer so who knows how much of his words are based in fact and which are just comedic absurdity. Reading the comments to the piece, though, I became painfully aware of the cultural gap there is between the British and Americans. Oh, sure, they argue just as much as Americans do as to whether Macs or PCs are better, but they take it a lot farther and argue quite vehemently over which operating system Dr. Who would use. :: shakes head ::
Now, if you'll excuse me I have to go prepare for my next Mac vs. PC argument. I need to come up with as many reasons as I can why Mr. Spock would use a PC. ;)
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My little iBook was 4 years old when Tiger was released and about 7 years old when I upgraded it to Tiger. Having said that... it's got 576MB of RAM and a 500Mhz CPU and it is pretty darn slow... painful, actually.-Darwin
I'm not quite sure how to respond. Should I congratulate you for your accomplishment or express sympathy due to your predicament?
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My little iBook was 4 years old when Tiger was released and about 7 years old when I upgraded it to Tiger. Having said that... it's got 576MB of RAM and a 500Mhz CPU and it is pretty darn slow... painful, actually.-Darwin
I'm not quite sure how to respond. Should I congratulate you for your accomplishment or express sympathy due to your predicament?
-Innuendo
;D Why not both?! My intent was to illustrate that it IS possible to install the latest Mac OS on a four year old Mac but that doing so doesn't exactly result in a great user experience. I'm pretty sure that my 6 year old XP machine will run Windows 7 just fine, though.
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I was 'close' to switch to a mac just because i work as a webdesigner with adobe products (photoshop, bridge, indesign, illustrator, dreamweaver...).
on the other hand, i was quiet happy with my windows computers, i had even no problems with windows vista ultimate (x64) and i used it from the first days. okay, you had to read a lot but if you used your brain before installing a program, you should not have these big problems you could read in the computer magazins (at least in the german speaking region of europe).
but why i should change... just that i can tell that i'm using a mac?
i think the pc or os-system you run is just as good as the man behind the keyboard... maybe i'm wrong ;)
i have no problems with mac's or their users, everybody can choose what he thinks is the best for him... and when the 'big battle' between windows vs. mac even start's - i visit such sites like zdnet.de, chip.de or pc-magazin.de (where i spend normaly every day some minutes) a bit less.
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I was 'close' to switch to a mac just because i work as a webdesigner with adobe products (photoshop, bridge, indesign, illustrator, dreamweaver...).
-DFrench
This is a common thing I come across and these days I really don't understand it. The entire Creative Suite, well integrated, is available on the PC as well. In fact I hear the latest version - at least of Photoshop - was actually developed with the PC as its primary platform rather than the Mac (obviously it works on both, but there is still usually a "lead SKU"). Also as far as I recall 64 bit Photoshop/Creative Suite was unavailable on the Mac until Snow Leopard, while it was available from day 1 on the PC. So it's really just a very, very outdated myth that Macs are better than PCs for graphic design work and/or Adobe apps.
Anyway thankfully you didn't switch for this foolish notion, since you seem to like PCs anyway. ;)
- Oshyan
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I was 'close' to switch to a mac just because i work as a webdesigner with adobe products (photoshop, bridge, indesign, illustrator, dreamweaver...).
-DFrench
Also as far as I recall 64 bit Photoshop/Creative Suite was unavailable on the Mac until Snow Leopard, while it was available from day 1 on the PC. So it's really just a very, very outdated myth that Macs are better than PCs for graphic design work and/or Adobe apps.
-JavaJones
it was 4 or 5 years ago i was seriously think about 'switching' to a mac... i had never a problem with the creative suite but in some issue's (till CS3) it was a little better on a mac.
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But is it really lock-in? All data on the Mac (save maybe older songs and videos that are DRM'd) can be easily exported. Apple file data formats are pretty open. Most files can be opened on software on other operating systems.
The key is why would you want to because the experience that Apple offers is so much better. Leaving Windows for a Mac was a breath of Fresh Air. The prospect of leaving my mac for something else is nothing but stressful. In fact, I'll leave my Mac when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
I played around with Windows 7 recently and the feeling I got was that it was still windows with the inherent safety issues, viruses, etc. I've not had to worry about a virus in the nearly 5 years since I switched to Mac OS X. No anti-virus subscriptions to pay. No bloatware to clean off the system, it just works.
http://holykaw.alltop.com/how-apple-locks-and-loads-you
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Quick update:
My little sister just got an iphone for the first time. She is in love with it. She has never been a gadget person, computer person, or anything like that. I'm telling you, it's not just hype. Apple is doing something very right somewhere.
I know we criticize the behind the scenes stuff, because we are knowledgeable computer people, but the end user experience is very exciting to most people. You have to give credit where credit is due. I'll never get an apple product anytime soon I can never be tied to the DRM or proprietary stuff if I can help it, like many of you. but ignoring Apple's sinister plans to take over the world and all that, they give the people what they want, and that is good business.
And it's not just because it's hip or cool. It's more than that. My sis really loves using the thing, it's easy for her. She didn't have to ask me how to do this or that. Cmon guys, you have to recognize the value in that.
I just had to mention that.
The other thing is I'm sure some of these Android phones can do the same or better, etc. But my sister didn't buy one. Apple got my sister to buy an iphone, which is amazing to me. So there's also value to getting people to buy your product. There are a lot of things I have to applaud apple for. I'm a Sony guy when it comes to gadgets, and I love their technology. But everything that Sony does wrong, Apple does right.
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Oh there are a lot of things Apple does right in terms of usability, and focus on usability.
There are also a lot of things Apples does cleverly in terms of *advertising* which have nothing to do with usability and features and are just pure brilliant marketing. Notice when you see an ad for a normal computer, they are telling you how fast the chip is, how much memory it has, how it has great monitor resoltuion, etc. Then notice an Apple ad, showing how people can listen to their favorite music! burn cds of music! It's not that the Apple does things the others don't in this case, it's that they are talking to a different audience.
My mother is quite tech savvy and bought an android, and is constantly frustrated and peeved at the UI and workflow.. She sees people using iphones having none of the problems she has. Apple deserves major credit for focusing on making 99% of the workflow really smooth and painless. [Things get a bit more dicey when something goes wrong]
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The iPhone is a good experience for the lay person, no doubt. iPad probably too, aside from the little technical foibles that are cropping up already, and probably just indicative of a 1st gen device. That being said, I have 2 friends who recently bought iPhones and are having terrible troubles with AT&T's network and/or iPhone's 3G/call reception (note: both these people had AT&T before, with different phones, and had less/no problems).
As for Android vs. iPhone, there are a couple things here. First, your sister probably bought an iPhone because Apple's marketing appealed to her. Android itself doesn't have any unified marketing, but the most marketed Android phone to date, particularly on its "Androidness", was the Verizon Droid, and the marketing spin there is pretty aggressive, techno-centric, and decidedly not oriented toward the lay person, or women, or anyone who isn't a "bare knuckled bucket of does". So Apple's marketing is definitely successful, but also oriented in a direction that a major competitor hasn't really exploited yet.
Second, Android as a platform is less unified than iPhone, plain and simple. This is one of the potential downsides of Android for the average user. For the tech geek it's a boon because it means you have options, and lots of 'em. But the average person just wants simple. To is iPhone is "lock-in", to them it's "simplicity", which is great.
What I want to point out though is that I think the advantages of iPhone as a platform and as a device could largely or even entirely be achieved *without* Apple being total a-holes (see latest developer clauses and consider the implications for devs trying to make a living). I'm a bit disappointed in how Android is panning out now as far as there being far too many devices already (unnecessarily), each with small variations that make them subtly different and potentially incompatible with each other. But it's early days yet, and I have hopes that the platform will solidify and unify a bit more, maintaining the open nature and ability for customization, without betraying the fundamentally shared platform benefits and the possibility for a shared ecosystem that it can bring. The last thing I want to see is phone makers not upgrading Android OS because they haven't had time to update their custom UIs...
In the end though, Android may not be there to serve the same needs iPhone is. Hopefully they'll figure out a way to balance these issues better than Apple has, but I fear they're erring on the opposite side of some of them by being too flexible and "open". There needs to be a bit more platform standards enforcement on Google's part IMO.
- Oshyan
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What I want to point out though is that I think the advantages of iPhone as a platform and as a device could largely or even entirely be achieved *without* Apple being total a-holes
amen.
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yes, mouser. That's exactly the point I'm making. One of the reasons I'm sensitive to this subject is because I'm experiencing this more and more in my actual job. I used to be very against all things Apple, like worse than anybody you've ever seen. But we have so much technology, so many options, so much informations, just so much everything everywhere, that it's not so valuable just to have something powerful, or versatile. One of the most important things today, if not THE most important thing, is the user interface, or the user experience, or whatever you call that.
See, most people do not care for all the things we care about. If I tell them that they can't transfer their music to another device or something like that, they just shrug their shoulders.
But a very good example of why we here don't like apple is the following:
My good friend also bought an itouch last year. He had some audiobooks on it, and he wanted me to listen to it. So I said, go ahead, just put it on my flash drive and I'll listen to it at home. Well, we spent like an hour trying to do it, but it was not possible because of the DRM. So, the big companies can be very glad that their protection works pretty well.
That being said, just about all companies would be well served to take a good look at Apple's strategic planning and learn from it. I would love those little companies that make great products that I love to be able to let go of their geeky side and focus a little more heavily on the end-user experience. Easier said than done.
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What I want to point out though is that I think the advantages of iPhone as a platform and as a device could largely or even entirely be achieved *without* Apple being total a-holes
amen.
-mouser
Probably. But you never know what's happening behind the scenes. I'm involved in a eerily similar situation here at my job, and as much as I know about this stuff, and as clear of an idea as I have about what SHOULD be done, I have to bow to the other influences in place. And I am glad to do so because I'm paid to do it, and I've learned by now that I am not the dictator of the world, not everyone is like me (very few, actually), and more important people than me are asking for certain things. So Apple does all those things for their own reasons, most likely for profitability.
It's up to someone even smarter than Jobs and with the ability to trump what Apple has done. Let's see if someone can offer a great user experience, while giving all the flexibility that the geeks will desire, and still market it as effectively as Apple. The opportunity is there. The wonders of capitalism.
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What Apple are essentially doing is turning computers and related gadgets into consumer items like cd players, TVs etc which "just work". You cannot really do that without controlling the hardware and the software and without severely limiting consumer options. Earlier generations (well, at least it will be earlier generations to a lot of people here) of geeks had to spend their time with soldering irons or in garages with oil and spanners.
The Microsoft stage succeeded in separating OS from hardware in computers and thereby provided the incentive and impetus for computers to get very cheap. Apple have now been able to take advantage of the cheapness by giving a lot of people what they think they want. Designer labels are the order of the day, and that is what Apple have created.
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I'm not so sure that your 2nd requirement, "you can't do that without... severely limiting consumer options." is actually true. I agree that controlling the hardware and software is very important, to a critical point. But imagine if Apple simply had an advanced option in the iTunes settings, even a commandline option, "disable system controls" or "advanced mode" - essentially an official and Apple-endorsed (but *not* "supported") "jailbreak". Thus allowing you to install whatever apps you want, etc., only Apple doesn't provide you support (but does honor warranty on hardware), and features are not guaranteed to work as advertised. For advanced users only, but at least it could be there and not be voiding warranty. Not to mention allowing alternative app stores, etc. but only if you've turned on the advanced mode feature. And of course not restricting devs to what environment they develop in.
You know why Apple doesn't do this? It's little or nothing to do with the "user experience". It's because probably 50+% of iPhone users would probably enable it, because that's what people actually want, given the choice. And yes, they probably would still complain to Apple about issues that are then not their problem to resolve. But guess what, Apple is used to telling customers that what they're trying to do isn't supported. ;)
- Oshyan
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Limiting options up front, means that you can limit your design parameters; limiting consumer options with the device, keeps everything simple and massively cuts support needs and the number of people saying that x or y doesn't work (and they have enough of that already really given how limited the options are. And it wouldn't fit with their brand image.
I would have said that the only thing that would make them change would be losing market share to competitors purely because the competitors offered more options - except that when they were in that situation they still carried on in the same way.
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What Apple are essentially doing is turning computers and related gadgets into consumer items like cd players, TVs etc which "just work". You cannot really do that without controlling the hardware and the software and without severely limiting consumer options. Earlier generations (well, at least it will be earlier generations to a lot of people here) of geeks had to spend their time with soldering irons or in garages with oil and spanners.
The Microsoft stage succeeded in separating OS from hardware in computers and thereby provided the incentive and impetus for computers to get very cheap. Apple have now been able to take advantage of the cheapness by giving a lot of people what they think they want. Designer labels are the order of the day, and that is what Apple have created.
-Dormouse
Both parts of this are quite true, and show sort of what we have to look for in regards to the phoneos wars. I'm a tech person, and have resisted the call of the iphone for a while, but I finally gave in. Why? Because, in the end, a phone is a phone. I don't care what you add to it, it has to be able to make calls, and do so *reliably*. No matter what apps are available, or what cool things you can do- if you can't make and receive calls when you need to, it's not a phone. This is also one of the reasons that I've dealt with the limitations and haven't jailbroken it. Because I have too many memories of answering a call and my phone locking up. Or having no ability to make calls until I 'rebooted' my phone. I can count the number of times this has happened on my iPhone on one hand with 3 fingers to spare.
As far as the second part, it bodes ill for the android platform. When the G1 came out, I was impressed. It was functional, and the experience seemed very good for a first generation device. Then the G1 without the keyboard came out- and I was still impressed. Then a plethora of devices followed and I saw the same fracturing of the platform start that happened on every other device with an open (or semi-open) platform. If you don't control the hardware, then anyone can decide to add or remove features based not upon the end user experience or solidity, but upon gaining market share and making money. And whenever you are dealing with a money-making proposition, this will become paramount- it's the nature of the companies, if not all of the people that drive them.
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I don't see why you can't limit your design parameters and support based on the official, supported options, software, settings, etc. but still have an "advanced" and *unsupported* mode. I doubt Apple is providing support on Windows even though they offer Bootcamp. Maybe they support Bootcamp itself, but to a limited degree. Doesn't seem much different in this hypothetical situation. "Sure, you can unlock your phone and install random apps on it, but we can't support them. Sorry." No big deal. I doubt most average consumers who are enjoying the iPhone now would even know or care about it, and meanwhile pretty much everyone moaning about the iPhone lock-in would be a lot more interested in buying one. I know I probably would have one already.
- Oshyan