I'm sure a lot of seemingly superficial things can be detected as "religious" brain activity.-superboyac (May 19, 2011, 11:24 AM)
Well, if we're going to get philosophical about it...I'm sure a lot of seemingly superficial things can be detected as "religious" brain activity.-superboyac (May 19, 2011, 11:24 AM)
Interesting point. I think they should then focus on the parts of the brain that shut off (logic, reason, attraction to women) when fan-bois view Apple stuff.-Stoic Joker (May 19, 2011, 11:36 AM)
If Apple products were actually universally easier to use I might agree with you, but they're not.I don't think this is correct. Think of it this way. Let's say you don't use computers that much, and you don't really care about computers. But you have to use it because that's life. So you are not consciously thinking "Wow, I can do so many things with this technology. Can I do [this]? How? Can I do [that]? How?" This is the mistake you are making. You are thinking that someone who buys Apple likes to think that way. But most reasonable Apple users are thinking, "Oh shit, I have to use a computer? Fine...how can I get this over with as soon as possible and get back to doing things I care about which has nothing to do with technology and computers?" If you are that person, an Apple is easier to use. If you're going to dispute that, I just think you are flat out wrong.
The problem I have with the Apple crowd then isn't that they value ease of use (hey, so do I!), it's that they identify Apple as essentially being the epitome of ease of use, generally ignoring all evidence to the contrary, whether it be inconsistencies and unintuitiveness in an Apple product, or really well implemented systems and tools on Windows.Your mixing the same issue up again. You are trying to think like yourself (the same way I think), yet trying to address the issue that someone like you and I don't put a priority on. We don't put a high priority on ease of use, because we're so experienced that complicated things ARE easy to use for us. But that doesn't mean the thing isn't complicated. Apple users don't give a shit about "systems and tools". You are thinking about things way deeper than anything that Apple users care about. That doesn't make them wrong, or you "better". All it says is that you care about different things.
Regardless of all that I've found *users* of Windows to be far less fanatical, dogmatic, and quite frankly passionate about their choice of platform.That's because, first, you sympathize with them, so you are naturally going to be more at peace with them. Secondly, people who prefer Windows are generally more experienced computer users than Apple users. So talking about computer geek stuff logically with them will be a pleasant, practical discussion. If you lived on a farm, and drove a tractor most of the time, and a city slicker came up to you and said "my Lexus is better than your tractor", it's silly. What kind of discussion will take place? Any argument or debate stemming from that will be inevitably unreasonable regardless of the best intentions of both parties. You wouldn't drive a Lexus around a farm, and you wouldn't drive a tractor to the office. What is there to argue?
I do dispute that. You call me wrong on what basis? You assume I am basing this solely on my own use of Apple products and my own preferences, yes? Incorrect. I am in fact basing this largely discussion with many Apple users - both serious and casual - and careful observation of the *reality* of Apple product use, not the rose-tinted version that Apple themselves and their fans like to tell you. For example I have a friend with an iPhone, he hates it, planning to replace it ASAP with an Android phone. Is he a Windows user? Yes he is, but he's very, very far from a computer expert, one could hardly even call him "savvy". And why does he hate his iPhone? iTunes, single button limitations, proprietary connectors and expensive accessories, and more. There have been previous discussion threads where I've pointed out several examples of clearly bad, unintuitive design in Apple products as well.If Apple products were actually universally easier to use I might agree with you, but they're not.I don't think this is correct. Think of it this way. Let's say you don't use computers that much, and you don't really care about computers. But you have to use it because that's life. So you are not consciously thinking "Wow, I can do so many things with this technology. Can I do [this]? How? Can I do [that]? How?" This is the mistake you are making. You are thinking that someone who buys Apple likes to think that way. But most reasonable Apple users are thinking, "Oh shit, I have to use a computer? Fine...how can I get this over with as soon as possible and get back to doing things I care about which has nothing to do with technology and computers?" If you are that person, an Apple is easier to use. If you're going to dispute that, I just think you are flat out wrong.-superboyac (May 19, 2011, 01:21 PM)
Speak for yourself. I put a high priority on ease of use, *especially* in the gadget/portable electronic market that is increasingly Apple's main revenue source. Android was a completely new platform to me and I've never been comfortable with Linux, but I picked it up quickly and have generally enjoyed it. iPhone and I got along less well. I may have more complex needs, but not all my needs are complex and I still appreciate simplicity and good design. Meanwhile in critiquing my point you ignored the fact that what I am taking issue with is not so much the appreciation of *good* design and UI, but rather ignoring examples of *bad* design and UI and forming one's opinion on a filtered view of their *own* experience. This happens a lot in religion and any general fanaticism and I just can't get behind the "you care about different things" perspective as an explanation for that, unless what they care about is only agreeing with the makers of whatever they've purchased, in which case it's not an admirable position anyway.The problem I have with the Apple crowd then isn't that they value ease of use (hey, so do I!), it's that they identify Apple as essentially being the epitome of ease of use, generally ignoring all evidence to the contrary, whether it be inconsistencies and unintuitiveness in an Apple product, or really well implemented systems and tools on Windows.Your mixing the same issue up again. You are trying to think like yourself (the same way I think), yet trying to address the issue that someone like you and I don't put a priority on. We don't put a high priority on ease of use, because we're so experienced that complicated things ARE easy to use for us. But that doesn't mean the thing isn't complicated. Apple users don't give a shit about "systems and tools". You are thinking about things way deeper than anything that Apple users care about. That doesn't make them wrong, or you "better". All it says is that you care about different things.-superboyac (May 19, 2011, 01:21 PM)
Regardless of all that I've found *users* of Windows to be far less fanatical, dogmatic, and quite frankly passionate about their choice of platform.That's because, first, you sympathize with them, so you are naturally going to be more at peace with them. Secondly, people who prefer Windows are generally more experienced computer users than Apple users. So talking about computer geek stuff logically with them will be a pleasant, practical discussion. If you lived on a farm, and drove a tractor most of the time, and a city slicker came up to you and said "my Lexus is better than your tractor", it's silly. What kind of discussion will take place? Any argument or debate stemming from that will be inevitably unreasonable regardless of the best intentions of both parties. You wouldn't drive a Lexus around a farm, and you wouldn't drive a tractor to the office. What is there to argue?-superboyac (May 19, 2011, 01:21 PM)
FWIW - I primarily use what I can afford.I need to get accustomed to this "good enough" perspective. I'm getting better at it, but it fights against my idealistic nature. I do believe it's the healthier route, though. Especially with these things that I just don't care about anymore. I'd rather be idealistic about the more absurd things in life, like music, art, and stories.
"Coolness," "personal choice" and "best of breed" doesn't usually figure into the equation for me. "Good enough" is truly good enough in my world. But more out of necessity than anything else.
Which is why I need to know a bit more about the technology I own than the person who can go buy whatever they want and be done with it.
"Use it up, wear it out, re-purpose, improvise, make do - or punt!" as the saying goes. ;D
And I think this applies to about 80% of all computer users. :)-40hz (May 19, 2011, 03:42 PM)
I would tend to agree, especially now, that Apple does have good industrial design and materials. That being said you do pay for that benefit. You can get a machine on the Windows side that is as well built for a similar or lesser price (e.g. Thinkpad), but not usually as visually pleasing in design. ;) And the price difference is not that much either - quality just costs money.
- Oshyan-JavaJones (May 19, 2011, 04:30 PM)
The aluminum chassis of the MacBook Air is a good example.-JavaJones (May 19, 2011, 05:26 PM)
And, and, I've recently experienced the totally sucks balls nature of OS file storage. I tried out a few mp3 player apps in an attempt to avoid itunes - none of these mp3 players is aware that there are mp3 files already on the machine, they are also blind to each others mp3 files - how. dumb. is. that. It's beyond moronic - totally utter crap.-nudone (May 19, 2011, 04:53 PM)
Yes. That's the fundamental, core difference between Windows and iOS. It's the main characteristic that allows Apple to be Apple, and Windows to be Windows.And, and, I've recently experienced the totally sucks balls nature of OS file storage. I tried out a few mp3 player apps in an attempt to avoid itunes - none of these mp3 players is aware that there are mp3 files already on the machine, they are also blind to each others mp3 files - how. dumb. is. that. It's beyond moronic - totally utter crap.-nudone (May 19, 2011, 04:53 PM)
You have no idea just how bad it is... It's worse...
To access a media file in iOS, you need to get it using a special method with a special protocol, e.g. "ugly://path.to.files/83456/sfdsd/39yheghbihgeirhefhhvduvghr.mp3" And they are that ugly. On top of that, you have no access to the file at all, the same way that you'd do it by trying to hot link an MP3 from another web site on your own web site. Actually, on a web site you'd have some control, but with Apple, the tools available area all crippled.
Then each application has private storage...
Idiotic? Well, I can see some reason in there, but yeah... it's pretty dumb.-Renegade (May 19, 2011, 07:42 PM)
Yes. That's the fundamental, core difference between Windows and iOS. It's the main characteristic that allows Apple to be Apple, and Windows to be Windows.And, and, I've recently experienced the totally sucks balls nature of OS file storage. I tried out a few mp3 player apps in an attempt to avoid itunes - none of these mp3 players is aware that there are mp3 files already on the machine, they are also blind to each others mp3 files - how. dumb. is. that. It's beyond moronic - totally utter crap.-nudone (May 19, 2011, 04:53 PM)
You have no idea just how bad it is... It's worse...
To access a media file in iOS, you need to get it using a special method with a special protocol, e.g. "ugly://path.to.files/83456/sfdsd/39yheghbihgeirhefhhvduvghr.mp3" And they are that ugly. On top of that, you have no access to the file at all, the same way that you'd do it by trying to hot link an MP3 from another web site on your own web site. Actually, on a web site you'd have some control, but with Apple, the tools available area all crippled.
Then each application has private storage...
Idiotic? Well, I can see some reason in there, but yeah... it's pretty dumb.-Renegade (May 19, 2011, 07:42 PM)-superboyac (May 19, 2011, 08:19 PM)
Yes. That's the fundamental, core difference between Windows and iOS. It's the main characteristic that allows Apple to be Apple, and Windows to be Windows.-superboyac (May 19, 2011, 08:19 PM)
Moral of the story -- you don't need to be a prick-Renegade (May 19, 2011, 08:47 PM)
I have to ask...Was it Apple who predicted the end of the world to occur tomorrow?-Josh (May 20, 2011, 07:47 AM)
End Of The World Facts 1.0
Device: iOS iPhone
Category: Lifestyle
Price: Free, Version: 1.0 (iTunes)
Description:
Select the end of the world prediction to display countdown to that date.Features interesting facts about what will happen by then based on current statistics.
Simple and fun.
I have to ask...Was it Apple who predicted the end of the world to occur tomorrow?-Josh (May 20, 2011, 07:47 AM)
I don't think so. But there's probably an app for it anyway. :P
-----------
Update: Figures. They do have an app for it!End Of The World Facts 1.0
Device: iOS iPhone
Category: Lifestyle
Price: Free, Version: 1.0 (iTunes)
Description:
Select the end of the world prediction to display countdown to that date.Features interesting facts about what will happen by then based on current statistics.
Simple and fun.
Fun? :-\-40hz (May 20, 2011, 08:08 AM)
I spend money on the right tools in my garage. Unlike an electronic gadget, however, if the tool is well built and well designed, I never have to buy that tool again in my life.-zridling (May 20, 2011, 04:30 PM)
^Same goes for most musical instruments and equipment.-40hz (May 20, 2011, 06:40 PM)
Which is more than I can say for most of the 'modern' music tech I've owned. ;D-40hz (May 20, 2011, 06:40 PM)
Commoditization of products for a consumer economy means building in "breakability" (planned obsolescence) so that people need to go out an buy a new one.-Renegade (May 20, 2011, 07:35 PM)
has everyone gone mad?-Carol Haynes (May 21, 2011, 06:17 AM)
has everyone gone mad?-Carol Haynes (May 21, 2011, 06:17 AM)
Looks like it from where I'm sitting. ;D-40hz (May 21, 2011, 06:25 AM)
I wish I were insanely rich as I'd love to open a chain of stores called "Forever", with only products that are designed to last as long as possible. I think the shelves would be sparsely stocked though...-Renegade (May 20, 2011, 07:35 PM)
On the music gear side... I need to get a new mixer.
Check out the Behringer Eurorack series if you get a chance-40hz (May 21, 2011, 06:46 AM)
With continuous lobbying, groups like the RIAA, MPAA, et al. have waged war on the internet (not just file sharing) by spending billions to get governments to outlaw illegal playing of media, from DMCA to ACTA, and more assaults to follow soon. Now many ebooks have thrown in the mix, with Amazon urging you to buy a restrictive kindle (apple, too), only to secretly retain control of what's on the device whether you like it or not.
This results in where we are -- a subscription-based media consumption model, where you buy everything you like over and over for each different device you ever buy.
No thanks, I'll sit that fraudulent trail of tears out until there are open devices using open formats.-zridling (May 21, 2011, 11:04 PM)
This explains a lot:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-causes-religious-reaction-in-brains-of-fans-say-neuroscientists/-JavaJones (May 19, 2011, 11:00 AM)
With continuous lobbying, groups like the RIAA, MPAA, et al. have waged war on the internet (not just file sharing) by spending billions to get governments to outlaw illegal playing of media, from DMCA to ACTA, and more assaults to follow soon. Now many ebooks have thrown in the mix, with Amazon urging you to buy a restrictive kindle (apple, too), only to secretly retain control of what's on the device whether you like it or not.]
This results in where we are -- a subscription-based media consumption model, where you buy everything you like over and over for each different device you ever buy.
No thanks, I'll sit that fraudulent trail of tears out until there are open devices using open formats.-zridling (May 21, 2011, 11:04 PM)
Maybe it's the "image-processing and interpretation" part of the brain. You know, from looking at pictures and images and processing them into some kind of meaning.-Deozaan (May 22, 2011, 03:47 PM)
A team of neuroscientists studied Brooks’ brain while undergoing an MRI scan, to see how it reacted to images of Apple products and (heaven forbid) non-Apple products.Image processing areas would, of course, have been triggered by both Apple & non-Apple products, so that cannot be what they were looking at. There have been quite a few fMRI studies on religion.
According to the neuroscientists, the scan revealed that there were marked differences in Brooks’ reactions to the different products.
Maybe it's the "image-processing and interpretation" part of the brain. You know, from looking at pictures and images and processing them into some kind of meaning.-Deozaan (May 22, 2011, 03:47 PM)
Quote from the article:A team of neuroscientists studied Brooks’ brain while undergoing an MRI scan, to see how it reacted to images of Apple products and (heaven forbid) non-Apple products.Image processing areas would, of course, have been triggered by both Apple & non-Apple products, so that cannot be what they were looking at. There have been quite a few fMRI studies on religion.
According to the neuroscientists, the scan revealed that there were marked differences in Brooks’ reactions to the different products.-Dormouse (May 22, 2011, 05:21 PM)
Think about this the next time someone tries to explain a cause/effect relationship between statistics.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-t0u59Rbdl6g/TdirhyPeAiI/AAAAAAAABaI/w_pd1gGePv0/s1600/64uqp.jpg)-http://mnsfw.blogspot.com/2011/05/statistics-can-say-whatever-you-want.html
This is an issue I continually struggle with. From a personal/consumer's perspective, I desperately want open devices and open formats. But from a business perspective, I understand the need to protect the content. So I try to intellectually figure out a good balance, and there doesn't seem to be any. In the end, and this may very well be a gross generalization, I think it's just another product of what has happened to our global financial system, which rules every other common issue in today's urban world.-superboyac (May 22, 2011, 05:14 PM)
...if they were, they would then expect to see the same pattern with other things that engender the same apparent fervour.-Dormouse (May 22, 2011, 06:05 PM)
Has it to do with the feverish passion, or the irrationality that led to it?-Renegade (May 22, 2011, 06:10 PM)