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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: zridling on March 12, 2008, 09:19 PM
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[via makeuseof.com (http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/whats-this-linux-thing-and-why-should-i-try-it/)]:
a short article explaining the Linux thing.
So, what is this Linux thing?
Linux is an operating system, just like Windows and OSX are operating systems.... When someone says they use Linux, what they mean is they use a distribution (aka distro) of Linux. Without the GNU tools or any applications, it can be a little useless. A distro is a software bundle. It includes the Linux kernel (the part that actually talks to the hardware), the GNU tools, and whatever applications the person or people who started that distro thought were useful, all configured in a way that they think works well.
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Why should I use it?
There are a number of reasons you may want to try Linux on your computer. For me, the main reason to switch was to try something new. I wanted to know what else was out there besides Windows, which I was bored with, and OSX, which I don’t like. Trying something new and learning more about how computers work might not be your thing, though, so here are some other reasons.
- It’s free.
- You’re free.
- It’s secure.
- It’s easy.
How do I get it, and what’s with that penguin up there?
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PS: If you do try it, don't automatically reach for Ubuntu if you don't want to. Linux Mint, PCLinuxOS, Mepis, et al. are better in some ways.
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It’s free.
Only if your time is free.
You’re free.
Not if you're a developer :]
It’s secure.
Only if you're not running insecure software on it...
It’s easy.
Unless you want to do something slightly poweruser-ish, then you have to drop to a shell and edit arcane configuration files. Last time I played with Ubuntu, getting support for multiple monitors was a poweruser-ish thing.
:D
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I'll have to give the author his due on these points:
— It’s free.
— You’re free.
— It’s secure.
— It’s easy.
While your counterpoints are all true, no one's time is free, right?; developing naturally ties you to a platform; insecure software doesn't reach the kernel level in Linux; and the Ubuntu forums provide unparalleled support, and have helped me solve a few problems unrelated to Ubuntu since I don't use it.
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no one's time is free, right?
True, but then we could go into a "what is most time consuming?" discussion. And that isn't just about windows having more familiarity, really - it's about windows being more polished. If something requires a couple of clicks on windows but you end up having to google or use support forums on linux, linux loses.
developing naturally ties you to a platform
Yes, but I was (once again) referring to the GPL virus. It's hard to do very much on a linux platform unless you either A) reinvent the wheel or B) use GPL components and thus have to release your own stuff under GPL. This isn't as big an issue when developing for windows.
insecure software doesn't reach the kernel level in Linux
Oh, it has done so every now and then... my point was more that if you say "linux is secure", you have to say "NT is secure" as well. The NT kernel actually offers better and more granular security than the linux kernel... although things are slowly getting better for linux. But normal distros still use root-and-restoftheworld instead of ACLs.
and the Ubuntu forums provide unparalleled support, and have helped me solve a few problems unrelated to Ubuntu since I don't use it.
That's great, but I still have the sense of having had to google or user forums/whatever for things on linux that just should have worked out of the box. Like the multi-monitor thing. I specifically picked Ubuntu since it' supposedly targeted at regular users and tries to be friendly and easy to use etc.
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I have willed myself away from installing Linux on this machine. In moments of weakness, I've downloaded 3 or 4 iso's but manage to stop myself before burning them.
I love linux. I typically just run fluxbox, live in the shell, and watch as my productivity grinds to 5%. When I'm in linux, I spend 45% of my time in the web browser reading linux crap, and 45% of my time tooling with it, editing this and that, and the other 10% is split up between making coffee, pissing and actually being productive. The two least productive years of my life were the years I spent playing, literally, with Linux.
So I'm using my will powers to stay where I play less (and enjoy more software compatibility) -- Windows.
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I'd love to run an alternative desktop OS to Windows, because I believe things can be a lot better. Whenever someone says linux is ready for then masses I'm excited, but then I read about things like stopping audio stuttering and jerky video (http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/LatencyTop_Identifying_System_Latency); and fixing hibernate and suspend (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/94/) and the lack of commercial ecosystem for multimedia and design software that I'd like to see. And every year is the year of linux for the desktop (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=sZo&q=year+of+linux+desktop&btnG=Search&meta=), but last year the most media-profilic person that created desktop orientated patches stopped working on it (http://artipc10.vub.ac.be/serendipity/archives/32-The-end-of-the-CK-kernel-patch-set.html).
So I'm hoping for a new competitor, maybe desktop bsd or yahoo will come with a desktop os that keeps the person in mind. (beos) Windows works for a lot of people because they learned how to sidestep many issues. Everyday I depend on software to make the desktop experience less flawed (farr, arsclip, roboform, clickoff, foldershare, anti virus, anti spyware, logmein etc) and i guess it's a bit grating. it certainly motivated me to become involved in IT, it's really bad (on windows) and it's really hard to make a program/website that's as effortless to use as your tv. Perhaps better middleware is now coming available (.net etc, I'm not aware of competiting technologies on OSX or linux except for similar implementations like mono).
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I've been "playing" with Linux since 1995 or so and have yet to move to it full time. I moved from DOS + Win 3.11 (for workgroups) to OS/2 3.0 in about 1 day. Tweaked it over the next month and used the heck out of it for a long time. I moved from there to XP. (OS/2 and XP are cousins you know... maybe brothers even)
Using lots of little tweaks, I have XP running about like I want, with a cmd line available as needed (seldom).
Currently, my biggest problem with XP is that freaking registry. What a f*ed concept that is.... Bloatware is #2 on the "windows things that suck" list.
I'd love to move to Linux and continue to look for the distro. that will let me. I will not spend two months tweaking sound, video, codec installation, etc. I'm even willing to consider OSX given it's BSD base and Intel architecture these days. I know that my same email and browser apps seem to run better on Linux (Thunderbird, Firefox) and I'm willing to bet my overall system performance will be better. I just really don't want to spend the rest of my computer life compiling drivers, a new kernel, etc.
Linux Mint and Mandrake 2008 Spring (currently in beta) look to be good candidates. Time will tell.
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(OS/2 and XP are cousins you know... maybe brothers even)
I'd say a bit more distant than cousins - it's true that Microsoft worked along on OS/2, ditched it, and then went off to do NT, pulling in Dave Cutler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler_%28software_engineer%29) of VMS fame... but it wasn't like MS just grabbed the OS/2 code and ran, and based NT on that :)
Currently, my biggest problem with XP is that freaking registry. What a f*ed concept that is.... Bloatware is #2 on the "windows things that suck" list.
The registry is a good idea (as opposed to a zillion different config file formats placed a zillion different locations), it's just heavily mis-used.
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I've been using GNU/Linux as both desktop and server OS for years now.
I'm at the point where I'm much less productive in windows, and generally get really frustrated using it. Even though once upon a time I used to use and develop in it frequently.
In my experience, setting up things the way you want it takes much longer in GNU/Linux, but the end result is ever so much worth every single minute spent.
I don't really like going into the whole Freedom debate since it is a minefield full of opinions. Some see the GPL as freedom and others see it as restrictive. It's probably both! It prevents developers from making non-Free(as in freedom) software (don't forget you can still sell software for money under the GPL.). This creates a situation where a vast array of Free development libraries is available which you can modify, edit, build upon, use, abuse, etc, as long as your program is also free. I think, as a developer, that one restriction for the developer, to make your software Free, is very much worth the restriction (of not being able to make your software non-Free.).
Over the years, "arcane" configuration files are not arcane at all, to me, GUI's feel arcane. This is all a matter of what you're used to, one is not superior over the other.
I don't think any one should push one other into any one operating system. Each OS has it's pro's and con's to different people. Right now there is more windows users on dc than there is GNU/Linux fellows, and I'd love to see DC become a place where both can share their experiences in peace without namecalling and prejudgementalisms (is that a word? :-[ ). Especially now that cross-platform applications are becoming more common and widespread, there is no reason for that not to be possible.
It has to be said though, that the more I grow into one OS the more I outgrow the other, and despite the availability of more cross platform applications, they are still vastly different worlds and require vastly different mindsets to use to their full potential.
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(OS/2 and XP are cousins you know... maybe brothers even)
I'd say a bit more distant than cousins - it's true that Microsoft worked along on OS/2, ditched it, and then went off to do NT, pulling in Dave Cutler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler_%28software_engineer%29) of VMS fame... but it wasn't like MS just grabbed the OS/2 code and ran, and based NT on that :)
-f0dder
Actually, it's more like that than you think. I used to run OS/2 v 2.1 apps under NT 4.0. NT uses OS/2 variable in the environment settings. The XP Kernel is just a tweaked version of NT, right? (I could be wrong)
Currently, my biggest problem with XP is that freaking registry. What a f*ed concept that is.... Bloatware is #2 on the "windows things that suck" list.
The registry is a good idea (as opposed to a zillion different config file formats placed a zillion different locations), it's just heavily mis-used.
-f0dder
As opposed to a zillion config files all over the place, yes. As opposed to a sane process of keeping your app and config files to your own directory structure, no, it is not.
There are about 236 other ways of handling config files, 96% of which are better than the registry as implemented by M$.
(These are precise numbers BTW :P )
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Win2000 is NT5.0, XP is NT5.1.
And just because there's similarities between OS/2 and NT doesn't mean NT was based on OS/2 - although there's obviously some influence there... and heavy influence from VMS :). Btw, NT can run other subsystems than just Win32 - posix, for instance. And iirc there was some OS/2 support as well?
Gothi[c]: I sorta prefer config files to GUI config, actually, my problem with linux is that there's so many different incoherent formats, and that files are different places on different distros, despite that unified hierarchy project whatever.
As opposed to a sane process of keeping your app and config files to your own directory structure, no, it is not.
Ho humm, I still think the registry is a better idea than <whatever> config file format. There should have been better/easier hive-file support though, so you could place the hivefile next to the application for portable apps.
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Geez folks, use Linux or don't. It's all a matter of personal taste and what you're willing to do to get work done.
Personally Linux does exactly what I want it to do when I need it done. Period. Windows fights me the whole way taking me from dialog to menu to check box with no results until I finally give up and Google it anyways, and 90% of the time I find NO answer for my Windows problem and I end up saying under my breath "If this was Linux I'd be DONE".
I'm taking my GNU and going home now...
>:(
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I'm taking my GNU and going home now...
>:(
-Edvard
OK, we accept the Tux Droid (http://www.kysoh.com/tux_overview.html) as a pet ;D
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I agree re: productivity and messing around with linux.
Mostly drivers/low level stuff.
Although people who cross the threshold (their sysadmin-fu becomes really good) do get more done compared to windows users... a point I have never reached.
If you _Must_ use a linux app (e.g., fish terminal, ksh, package management for some OSS) on windows, the best way to go without fiddling with drivers is this:
http://www.andlinux.org/index.php
Really cool.
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Kudos to f0dder for the Dave Cutler reference. Haven't heard that name in ages.
Gothi[c]: I don't think any one should push one other into any one operating system. Each OS has it's pro's and con's to different people. Right now there is more windows users on dc than there is GNU/Linux fellows, and I'd love to see DC become a place where both can share their experiences in peace.... Especially now that cross-platform applications are becoming more common and widespread, there is no reason for that not to be possible.
This is where I'm at. While I deeply dislike Vista's heavy footprint, I realize the OS is a tool of familiarity first, choice second. Once you grow accustomed to one, you tend to stick with it, much like the type of toothpaste you use. And so far, DC members have been overly kind to my GNU/Linux newbie talk for the past year. Windows will always be more popular, but the point of GNU/Linux is not popularity, trust me. The reason I've stuck with it is that now that I'm past the beginner stage, it's become a lot of fun.
[thank you!] :-*
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I just downloaded and installed Simply Mepis on my Gateway laptop. Everything works ok BUT the wireless and I cannot figure out how to install it. It keeps saying "no network device found". I have installed the "wireless tools" but still no luck.
I like some of the features but the degree of dificulty I am experiencing in getting the wirelss working is unacceptable. :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:
Any ideas?
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Wireless on linux (well, on "anything-but-windows", more or less :)) is a big pain. For some reason, wireless NICs are one of the device types that's very hard to get specifications for, and many w-NICs require some firmware code that it's also basically impossible to get a (re)distribution license for.
Your best bet is probably http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/ + windows drivers, but I've never messed with this myself.
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Or just find a linux distro that will have it work out of the box. That's what I did... The first one to work was PCLinuxOS. Then Ubuntu.
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I've got Slackware 12 running on a VPC on my Vista x64 box. I'm going to agree with f0dder on the spread all over hell and back .config files as I can't seen to get the damn thing to do shit and that's after Goggling my ass off for about a week.
The typical Linux-esk answer to any question I've found is a quick off-handed blurb of "Just put arcane reference in the .config file" and then no information is given about where in the file to put it, or where the freaking file is at.
This is about half as friendly as a home lobotomy kit.
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To be fair, slackware isn't the easiest distro to get along with, and is mostly used by elitists, imho. If you don't mind wasting (yes, wasting!, since it doesn't give much real benefit) some time on compiling things from source, I find gentoo is the distro I've gotten best along with for my server needs. Flexible, relatively decently laid out, etc.
Ubuntu is nice if you don't need to do anything special, but as soon as you do, you're back to opening terminals and hand-editing config files. Last time I checked, things like installing Java, decent video drivers, and getting multi-monitor support were to be considered special ;)
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yes, wasting!, since it doesn't give much real benefit
It does give real benefit, but the benefit isn't useful to your average joe user.
Portage lets you compile many packages directly from cvs/svn, and have the result managed by your package management. It's also very easy to apply/manage patches when everything is compiled from source. Which is great if some patch for a security problem is released and you want to fix it before your repositories have the fix, which is impossible with binary distributions unless you want to compile your own stuff and have it not managed by your package management, which always comes to bite you in the ass anyway. When I find myself on a binary distro, I find myself compiling half of the stuff I need from source anyway, manually. It drives me bonkers to not have it supported by my package management system. If you're doing development it just makes sense. For 'normal' desktop users it doesn't. I find the whole optimization stuff just as much bullshit as the next guy, since the benefit is minimal. But there are definitively countless other advantages.
Like I said before, if you're relatively new to GNU/Linux, or if you're not very proficient in it, and you don't have the time to spend to learn a new system, then just stick to what you're using, instead of trying it for 2 days and then coming back to complain in forums. It requires you to edit config files. Deal with it. That's just way it's built. Just like windows makes you use GUI's. You don't see me bitching in forums about windows making me use a GUI, and I HATE GUI'S for configuring stuff :D So, I just don't use windows. As simple as that.
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...Have you read the topic for this thread?
You're complaining about people who are trying Linux ... In a thread that's about "Why You Should Try Linux".
:o
So... Back to the trials... :)
I selected Slackware because I'd had fun with it (v9) a few years back and thought I'd give it another go. The objective being that if I started with the one that had the worst reputation for being a pain in the ass ... Then the rest should be easy.
It's not per-se' that I have a issue with the rather scattered manner in which the OS is configured ... It's the complete lack of anything even vaguely resembling concise documentation that I'm finding annoying. e.g. Slackware.com (now at v12) has approx have a useful "manual" posted for v9 which is a bit of a g-a-p. I'm guessing the folks there were too busy making hugh improvements to be bothered with writting anything down to share with the rest of the class.
The install instructions (on their site) for creating partitions which must be done manually before running the install ramble on for two or three pages, and yet somehow still manage to not contain enough information to create a partition!
Even when installing on a bare drive, LILO (the mandatory boot loader) is listed as "Optional" by the installer.
While I've actually managed to get the damn thing on the internet, and get the Samba config widget to give the shares a clean bill of health ... the machine can't even browse itself. It actually managed to force me to appreciate the fact that I've earned an error message; Oh goody I finally fiddled with it enough to get it to share a crumb of information about wtf is wrong!
etc. etc. etc.
*Sigh*
However I refuse to be defeated, so I will continue the fight.
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Face it, Folks... Bill trained us all real good! If Henry Bergunstmmer had invented "Strom" and managed to outdo Bill on the marketing thing we'd all be arguing why "Strom" was so good!
For me, when the MS corporate types decided to make a unilateral decision which impacted millions of developers and billions of users I said, "That's it!" I have been going through a series of painful surgeries to have Microsoft removed from my inner ganglia. Don't get me wrong, I like the software and the IDEs associated with MS, but the direction Bill and the Gang are going doesn't make me sleep real well at night. So, I'm on a quest to go totally...
Cross-Platform/Open Source.
Just imagine where C-P/OS would be today if we had invested billions in those efforts? Personally, when I find a good app that shows the developer(s) really used there noodles I don't just send a "couple 'o bucks," but rather an amount equal to what I would have spent on "commercial" offerings. That reminds me, I forgot to send some money to a developer. Glad you reminded me! :P
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Don't get me wrong, I like the software and the IDEs associated with MS, but the direction Bill and the Gang are going doesn't make me sleep real well at night.-CodeTRUCKER
I feel that way as well, but I don't see any alternatives, when keeping stability, documentation, ease-of-use and performance in mind. Linux (kernel as well as distros) have a lot of good things going, and a bunch of stuff I miss in Windows, but there's too much half-baked crap and incoherency for me to use it as a desktop replacement.
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You're complaining about people who are trying Linux ... In a thread that's about "Why You Should Try Linux".
I wasn't complaining about people trying GNU/Linux. I was complaining about people who don't have the time to spend to learn a new way of doing things, and instead of just saying they are just used to the OS they have been using and don't have the time to learn something new, they immediately dismiss the alternative as 'crap' because they aren't used to it.
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I find it very exciting to have more cross platform applications out there these days, and that as a result of that, there will be more co-operation and compatibility between all the OS flavors.
There are some very great cross-platform development toolkits out there, making it easier for developers to make and maintain their cross-platform applications.
Especially in the commercial software market, there has always been this humongous fear that making and maintaining a cross platform application is a tremendous task requiring much more money and development time.
This is no longer the case in my opinion. Some of my C++ applications compiled instantly without modification on GNU/Linux, Windows, BSD, and Solaris. Many toolkits such as qt, gtk, wxWidgets, etc, are making this so much less painful, and I really do believe we will be seeing more cross platform stuff out there, not just in the Free/Open Source arena.
It sounds exciting to me, to be able to run your OS of choice, keep your way of doing things, and be able to run any application on it. Users of different Operating Systems can share plug-ins, software experiences on forums like this one, etc,... It will definitively help tear down some of the barriers that exist now between the users of different operating systems.
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Ok, with people who *fear* the drivers hunting and spotty hardware support of linux... I really think that andlinux.org is the fastest way to test this OS. This is a linux kernel compiled for windows (!). It runs at almost native speed (that I can see; I don't have stats). It uses the windows drivers, so if your hardware works on windows, you are covered.
It's a fully working linux runing on windows. Not a VM (like VMware).
If you have 2GB HD and can spare 256mb of memory (or more) you have all you need to test linux.
The distro they use is ubuntu.
Often, being spared of the time-waste chasing drivers is the only thing people need to spend time on linux. This is much better than live-CDs (that, after all, are limited in speed by the constant reads of the CD).
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and if you were planning to use linux on a laptop, then you are right fearing drivers hunt!
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I wasn't complaining about people trying GNU/Linux. I was complaining about people who don't have the time to spend to learn a new way of doing things, and instead of just saying they are just used to the OS they have been using and don't have the time to learn something new, they immediately dismiss the alternative as 'crap' because they aren't used to it.
-Gothi[c]
Well, I don't dismiss Linux as crap, I just put it in the category of things I want to have time to do but don't. The very real situation (at least for me) is that I run my own business, which includes going to work at client locations, drumming up new business, and working on what I didn't get to finish at the client site at home. Then, I still have to refresh my skills/learn new things as they come out, write articles, and then maybe get a little while to get off the computer and do something social. I just don't have the extra hours in the day to learn it. I suppose I should look for some kind of dummies book- don't laugh. They are a great way to learn new things as you don't have to dig to find out the basics; you can then learn the rest as you use it. But I just haven't been able to justify spending the time on it when I can be doing things that are more closely related to my earnings potential.
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Point taken, wraith808 — there's a learning curve for everything not immediately familiar. 2008 will see consistent strides towards overall Linux usability for us Windows users who either make the switch or just want to learn something new. But if you do venture to try it, stick with the more popular distros at first, such as:
- Linux Mint (http://linuxmint.com/)
- Mandriva (http://www.mandriva.com/)
- sidux (http://sidux.com/)
- PCLinuxOS (http://www.pclinuxos.com/)
- ZenWalk (http://www.zenwalk.org/)
- Fedora (http://fedoraproject.org/)
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This way, you're computing among the crowd.
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I tried RedHat (now Fedora) back when and it installed and ran fine, without incident, and worked...which was kind of ...boaring. So I flattened the box and took a crack at Slackware 9, which then proceeded to be much more of a challenge (which is what I was actually after).
My situation is much like wraith808's (While I don't own the company, I do tend to work 16hr days and dance on the edge of burnout constantly). But I still enjoy a good challenge.
I'm barely beginning to scratch the surface of understanding exactly how Linux of put together...so I'm not about to even attempt to form any opinions about how the OS is put together. I will however unequivocally state that their documentation is pathetically lacking in concise information. But that's OK ... I'm having fun!
The Slackware VPC is still sitting here, running on my desktop, taunting me, I swear I can hear it laughing. I could just delete it, but that would be admitting defeat ... Which I can not do. I will continue the fight until I force the evil beast to bend to my will, and only then will I decide if the fight was worth it.
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Tip:
More often than not, I have found answers to many problems on the Gentoo Wiki (http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page). Very good documentation at that.
It's not just applicable to Gentoo, these answers apply to most distros, with the only thing to watch being whether yours uses /usr/local (Red Hat, Mandriva, etc.) or /usr (almost everybody else...) for user-installed apps.
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Talking about tips sites, the Linux section of the Scot's Newsletter forums has a really nice list (http://forums.scotsnewsletter.com/index.php?showtopic=503) of useful tricks for those approaching Linux for the first time authored by the resident Linux expert there.
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Update: I now have file sharing working. I got a chat session going with an old friend (who's a Linux guy) from Iceland and he got me far enough to get the blasted thing to throw an error (Yahoo - finally something to work with) ... seems I'd managed to get smb.conf saved in the wrong location.
Only other issue was I was missing a package that controlled authentication.
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[Lashiec]: the Linux section of the Scot's Newsletter forums has a really nice list of useful tricks for those approaching Linux for the first time
Wow Lashiec, thanks! That's a long-running 5-year old thread, but if you peruse it, you'll find tons of great links, right from the start (http://www.brunolinux.com/). I appreciate you sharing that, since I'd given up on Scot since he went all Mac on everybody about three years ago.
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Hi , I recently put Freespire on my second hard drive now windows doesn't recognize it . It shows up under disk management as a unnamed drive and "healthy and active " any ideas on what is wrong ? Thanks
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Hi , I recently put Freespire on my second hard drive now windows doesn't recognize it . It shows up under disk management as a unnamed drive and "healthy and active " any ideas on what is wrong ? Thanks
-whippy
Windows can't read ext*/reiserfs/whatever other file system your Linux installation is using. Windows will only recognize NTFS and FAT file systems, nothing else. There's not really anything you can do about it. I know there is a driver out there somewhere that lets Windows read Ext2/3 but it was so unreliable and caused so many BSOD's for me that I wouldn't bother looking it up. On the positive side though, *nix can both read and write NTFS using NTFS-3g (now used by default in most distros).
EDIT: I almost forgot, if you are using Total Commander on Windows, you can use this FS plugin (http://www.totalcmd.net/plugring/ext2fsreiser.html) to gain read access to Ext*/ReiserFS partitions. It's not 100% perfect, but it will let you read almost anything on said file systems.
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From benchmarks, NTFS-3g performance seems abysmal, though... and how full is it's support? Does it support $BadClus, for instance? Does it journal it's operations, and does it support journal playback?
Too bad that nobody wrote proper ext*, xfs and reiserfs drivers for windows, it would be interesting to compare those filesystems against native NTFS performance.
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From benchmarks, NTFS-3g performance seems abysmal, though... and how full is it's support? Does it support $BadClus, for instance? Does it journal it's operations, and does it support journal playback?
Too bad that nobody wrote proper ext*, xfs and reiserfs drivers for windows, it would be interesting to compare those filesystems against native NTFS performance.
-f0dder
I don't know how "full" the support is, but from my experience in just using it I have yet to encounter a single problem with corrupted files etc. Performance have also generally been quite good (certainly not abysmal) and have improved a lot since I first tested it back when it was brand new, even if it's not *as* fast as ext3 and friends. I wouldn't use it as my root filesystem (you can do so but...why?), but it's perfect for sharing files between the OS's when dual booting :)
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Thing is, if ntfs-3g doesn't have journal playback, it's dangerous to mount a NTFS partition that hasn't been cleanly unmounted (BSOD, whatever). And if ntfs-3g doesn't do journalling itself, power-loss or kernel crash is dangerous... I couldn't find mention of journalling on the ntfs-3g site, but their FAQ section does make me go ho-humm. At least it sounds like all the serious bugs are weeded out nowadays, even if the driver still isn't optimal :)
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Thing is, if ntfs-3g doesn't have journal playback, it's dangerous to mount a NTFS partition that hasn't been cleanly unmounted (BSOD, whatever). And if ntfs-3g doesn't do journalling itself, power-loss or kernel crash is dangerous... I couldn't find mention of journalling on the ntfs-3g site, but their FAQ section does make me go ho-humm. At least it sounds like all the serious bugs are weeded out nowadays, even if the driver still isn't optimal :)
-f0dder
Ah, that. Well, I have crashed both XP and Linux in the middle of write operations with the result that fsutil reported the file system as dirty. I have then tried booting into Linux and NTFS-3g would not mount the drive but instead told me to start Windows and scan the disk for errors. You can force it to mount anyway, but you will never accidentally do so...thankfully :)
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[...] fsutil reported the file system as dirty. I have then tried booting into Linux and NTFS-3g would not mount the drive but instead told me to start Windows and scan the disk for errors. You can force it to mount anyway, but you will never accidentally do so...thankfully :)
-Dirhael
Same experience here.
And I trust ntfs3g for "file sharing" with windows -- never had one problem, and never heard of file loss with it recently. Performance numbers might not look impressive, but in day to day usage, it's really not bad at all. Really.
(BTW : I thought ntfs-3g supported journaling... or at least partially...Just can't find where I read that... hummmm...)
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[Gothi[c]]: Like I said before, if you're relatively new to GNU/Linux, or if you're not very proficient in it, and you don't have the time to spend to learn a new system, then just stick to what you're using, instead of trying it for 2 days and then coming back to complain.
Ah, the first and most difficult hurdle of all Windows users — myself included — face. Not to give up when it doesn't work at first or doesn't behave like Windows. (The second is the general confusion between Linux, the kernel, and its various desktop environments, such as Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Enlightenment, etc.)
Stoic Joker, I applaud you trying to use Slackware again, but I hope you understand that Slackware hasn't made the progress in usability that other distros have, and you're trudging up GNU/Linux's steepest hill with that choice. I don't know anyone who recommends Slackware except for advanced or highly experienced Linux users. Consider a Debian-based distro like sidux (http://sidux.com/) if you want a GNU/Linux experience where many of those challenges have been resolved by other people.
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Hi , I recently put Freespire on my second hard drive now windows doesn't recognize it . It shows up under disk management as a unnamed drive and "healthy and active " any ideas on what is wrong ? Thanks
-whippy
Windows can't read ext*/reiserfs/whatever other file system your Linux installation is using. Windows will only recognize NTFS and FAT file systems, nothing else. There's not really anything you can do about it. I know there is a driver out there somewhere that lets Windows read Ext2/3 but it was so unreliable and caused so many BSOD's for me that I wouldn't bother looking it up. On the positive side though, *nix can both read and write NTFS using NTFS-3g (now used by default in most distros).
EDIT: I almost forgot, if you are using Total Commander on Windows, you can use this FS plugin (http://www.totalcmd.net/plugring/ext2fsreiser.html) to gain read access to Ext*/ReiserFS partitions. It's not 100% perfect, but it will let you read almost anything on said file systems.
-Dirhael
Ok so how should I have done it ? Do I have to reformat the linux hard drive ?
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[Gothi[c]]: Like I said before, if you're relatively new to GNU/Linux, or if you're not very proficient in it, and you don't have the time to spend to learn a new system, then just stick to what you're using, instead of trying it for 2 days and then coming back to complain.
Ah, the first and most difficult hurdle of all Windows users — myself included — face. Not to give up when it doesn't work at first or doesn't behave like Windows. (The second is the general confusion between Linux, the kernel, and its various desktop environments, such as Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Enlightenment, etc.)
Stoic Joker, I applaud you trying to use Slackware again, but I hope you understand that Slackware hasn't made the progress in usability that other distros have, and you're trudging up GNU/Linux's steepest hill with that choice. I don't know anyone who recommends Slackware except for advanced or highly experienced Linux users. Consider a Debian-based distro like sidux (http://sidux.com/) if you want a GNU/Linux experience where many of those challenges have been resolved by other people.
-zridling
Actually my intent was to go with the Baptism-by-Fire concept ... Which makes Slackware an ideal choice. To that end, I've had quite a bit of fun with it (swearing included...). I just need to get the sound working and it will be completely functional.
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Hi , I recently put Freespire on my second hard drive now windows doesn't recognize it . It shows up under disk management as a unnamed drive and "healthy and active " any ideas on what is wrong ? Thanks
-whippy
Windows can't read ext*/reiserfs/whatever other file system your Linux installation is using. Windows will only recognize NTFS and FAT file systems, nothing else. There's not really anything you can do about it. I know there is a driver out there somewhere that lets Windows read Ext2/3 but it was so unreliable and caused so many BSOD's for me that I wouldn't bother looking it up. On the positive side though, *nix can both read and write NTFS using NTFS-3g (now used by default in most distros).
EDIT: I almost forgot, if you are using Total Commander on Windows, you can use this FS plugin (http://www.totalcmd.net/plugring/ext2fsreiser.html) to gain read access to Ext*/ReiserFS partitions. It's not 100% perfect, but it will let you read almost anything on said file systems.
-Dirhael
Ok so how should I have done it ? Do I have to reformat the linux hard drive ?
-whippy
You haven't done anything wrong, it's just the way it works. Microsoft have their own file systems and Apple & *nix have others. Sure you can reformat your HDD if you want to access it from Windows again, but that means removing Linux. Technically it is possible to install Linux on an NTFS drive using the NTFS-3g driver but performance will suffer, you'll lose some rather important features that is very likely to stop your Linux installation from working as intended and I don't think you will find many (any?) distros that will set that up for you automatically in any case.
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Stoic Joker: I can't see much reason to use slackware these days, to be honest. If you want a relatively steep learning curve and enjoy getting your hands dirty, you should go with gentoo (http://www.gentoo.org) instead... it's more up-to-date and alive :)
dirhael: iirc Wubi (http://wubi-installer.org/) uses NTFS root FS.
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dirhael: iirc Wubi (http://wubi-installer.org/) uses NTFS root FS.
-f0dder
Indeed it does, but the problem still remains that some programs and utilities will still probably not work as intended due to file permissions and other things that are handled different by the various file systems. Also, I don't really understand why anyone would want to take the performance hit.
In any case, if you're just playing around and testing linux I think you would be better off just running it in a virtual machine seeing as there are several completely free alternatives out there today :)
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dirhael: iirc Wubi (http://wubi-installer.org/) uses NTFS root FS.
-f0dder
Indeed it does, but the problem still remains that some programs and utilities will still probably not work as intended due to file permissions and other things that are handled different by the various file systems. Also, I don't really understand why anyone would want to take the performance hit.
In any case, if you're just playing around and testing linux I think you would be better off just running it in a virtual machine seeing as there are several completely free alternatives out there today :)
-Dirhael
Or using andlinux.
I don't know how they do it, but you do have an ext3 FS. at least, it says so in /etc/fstab.
And you save the install process of Wubi.
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Actually my intent was to go with the Baptism-by-Fire concept ... Which makes Slackware an ideal choice. To that end, I've had quite a bit of fun with it (swearing included...). I just need to get the sound working and it will be completely functional.
-Stoic Joker
Stoic Joker:
Remember to add yourself to the "Audio" group (I assume you've already installed OSS and/or Alsa)
In fact, while you're at it, check to see what groups you may or may not or should be part of.
I'm a former Slackware victi... uh, user. I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve...
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I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve...-Edvard
Probably developed quite capacious sleeves too.
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;D
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Ubuntu is nice if you don't need to do anything special, but as soon as you do, you're back to opening terminals and hand-editing config files. Last time I checked, things like installing Java, decent video drivers, and getting multi-monitor support were to be considered special ;)
-f0dder
Yes, I had to reformat my Xubuntu install because of a bad video card setup (the built in drivers fscked up) and after reinstalling, reconfiguring and getting all my files back on the partition, I had to use the RECOVERY CONSOLE to login as root to install my ATI drivers. Most idiotic process I have ever seen.
Although, my Java install was quite easy...
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Actually my intent was to go with the Baptism-by-Fire concept ... Which makes Slackware an ideal choice. To that end, I've had quite a bit of fun with it (swearing included...). I just need to get the sound working and it will be completely functional.
-Stoic Joker
Stoic Joker:
Remember to add yourself to the "Audio" group (I assume you've already installed OSS and/or Alsa)
In fact, while you're at it, check to see what groups you may or may not or should be part of.
I'm a former Slackware victi... uh, user. I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve...
-Edvard
You assume correctly. I'm running it in Virtual PC so the sound card is a SB16, pkgtool says that OSS is installed, and I've been playing with Alsa for hours... *Sigh*
I'm currently logging in as root *haven't got to the user account setup stage yet) which I assume should have audio privledges.
When I load KDE sound tries to initialize, but some times throws a Sound Service killed/is hogging the CPU error (or something to that effect)... but the host machine (Vista x64) never showes even moderate CPU usage. My current theory (which I haven't had time to test) is that perhaps I needed to install the huge.S kernel as I'm still using the basic kernel that the setup said I could/should continue using because it had worked ok so far... *Shrug* Does that sound like a viable solution? Or am I totally off my nut?
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Response in PM in an attempt to keep this on-topic :)
I first tried linux because I realized how much more money I was going to have to spend if I was going to continue with Microsoft. If I had the money, I'd be throwing it at every Linux developer I could, but I don't, and I can do without Microsoft checking my pockets for holes.
Besides, as the folks at CrunchGear (http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/03/24/all-about-linux-2008-why-use-linux-2/) recently said, Linux is FUN...
Linux is fun to learn. It’s a challenge and amazingly easy and ugly and beautiful at the same time. Linux is like turning on your first computer and figuring out what all those weird boxes did. Once you figure out all the secrets, I’d say Linux offers a greater power-user satisfaction than XP, as a whole. Exploring Linux is fun. Exploring XP is a dummies book.
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Good Afternoon,
This is a big subject for me.
Back in summer through winter of 2007, I was really getting big into Linux. I tried out several versions, and liked Kubuntu most. You can see my posts (under the same name I use here) all over the Kubuntu forum (http://www.kubuntuforums.net/).
Over the first few weeks, I was in love with the whole Linux concept. I became a big fan of the KDE system -- its speed, the simplicity of the overall design of the operating system itself, the terrific repository system, and the helpful user community that was always there to help me. Little by little, I switched over to Linux full time. I wiped Windows off my desktop and laptop and was in bliss for a while. I was downloading all those terrific free applications, and had my desktop all set up beautifully.
Then one day I needed to set up a wireless network, and the trouble began. I simply could not get my laptop and my desktop to see each other. I logged in hours and hours chasing down every hint and lead and suggestion from all the gurus on the Kubuntu site. They made an honest effort to help me, but it just didn't work. It seems like such a simple thing, but no go on this.
But I was so happy with Linux, I thought I would just live without wireless file sharing. No big deal.
Well, then one day my old Canon scanner broke. I figured, no big deal, I'll just buy a new one. Well, I bought and returned three scanners, and not one of them would work with Linux. Each one had a different problem, but the important thing is they would not scan. I edited countless lines in the Linux files, downloaded drivers, and did all kinds of under-the-hood tinkering, and once in a while I could almost make the scanner work. I bought an HP all-in-one (because everyone says HP works well with Linux), and it wouldn't work. Again, hours and hours logged into the Linux forums for help.
I can live without a wireless network, but I can't live without a printer.
Finally, I realized I was losing way too much time trying to get basic hardware working properly. With a heavy heart, I had to restore Windows to my laptop, and I purchased a new dsesktop with Windows Vista. It hurt, but I had to do it.
Bottom line: I really really really would like to ditch Windows. I love the way Linux works, when I'm running the operating system and software within the repository. But you really hit a lot of potholes when you venture out just a bit.
So now I am using Windows Vista. Not because I like it better, but simply because more hardware drivers work with it.
My hope is that one day soon, Linux developers will get over the last couple of hurdles, then I'll switch to Linux and never go back.
Matt
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If you are buying equipment for any distro of Linux you do need to make sure beforehand that there are drivers for that equipment. And that may mean asking around for what other people are using. Pretty much everything will work with XP (though you can't rely on everything being Vista compatible) so that is a definite advantage of Windows. But you can load the latest Kubuntu on top of Windows which would allow you to do both.
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Sorry your experience came out bad, Matt.
I have an HP all-in-one as well (a 1315xi to be precise) and haven't had more than a hiccup or two.
I can't help but wonder, though... were you using the KDE tools to scan, or did you try Xsane straight?
That's what I'm using and it works fine.
Trust me, I've heard many stories like yours, and just as many success stories.
I've also heard similar stories under Windows, so the Redmond gorilla is not immune either.
Give it a try with the next version, and the best of luck to you.
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I've actually had numerous problems with my canon scanner under windows. Actually, I've had problems with my previous scanner too (both were Canons)!! It was driving me NUTS! Canon drivers can really be nightmarish. If they work, they work, but if there is some conflict with another device or something else in your system, hope to have a LOT of free time on your hands (to either bring the machine back to the store or... reinstall windows... hoping that'll fix it!)
Wireless and scanners are definitely a weak point under Linux, unfortunately. Printers are usually ok (eg : you can buy a fairely recent Samsung ML-2510 printer, pretty cheap, linux compatible). As Edvard pointed out, it is usually possible to find hardware that'll work... even scanners, but that could mean not buying the latest and greatest... HP is generally moderately good at that; see http://hp-linux.cern.ch/support/devscanner.php3 and http://hplip.sourceforge.net/ -- Hewlett-Packard's Officejet are usually pretty well supported.
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If you are buying equipment for any distro of Linux you do need to make sure beforehand that there are drivers for that equipment. And that may mean asking around for what other people are using. ... But you can load the latest Kubuntu on top of Windows which would allow you to do both. -Dormouse
I found that it's difficult to really predict everything. However, in my experience, I did not have trouble with most hardware. My video card, sound card, hard drives (internal and external), and other basics all worked great. My wireless card worked just fine for Internet access (though not for file sharing).
Yes, I considered running Linux on top of Windows, but I have to admit I never understood the proper way to get a dual-boot working. It was easier (and more fun) for me to just wipe out Windows!
I can't help but wonder, though... were you using the KDE tools to scan, or did you try Xsane straight?
That's what I'm using and it works fine.
Trust me, I've heard many stories like yours, and just as many success stories.
I've also heard similar stories under Windows, so the Redmond gorilla is not immune either.
Give it a try with the next version, and the best of luck to you.-Edvard
I was using Xsane, but I also tried so many other things I can't even remember what they were. I could go back into the Kubuntu forum and take a look at all my posts to refresh my memory. You know how it is: you get so deep into arcane little changes it's tough to remember it all months later.
No doubt, Windows is not perfect!! I am using Vista now, and every day I see a new frustration with some stupid design element. I'm constantly saying, "I like the way Linux does ____ better..." Just working within the operating system itself, Linux is far superior to Windows (my humble opinion).
I've got one foot firmy in the Linux world. I'm constantly checking Linux sites and looking at distribution news. Believe me, I plan to go back to Linux as soon as possible. Actually, I am planning to buy a cheap laptop just to use as a practice space for Linux distributions. There is no question in my mind that Linux is moving in the right direction.
... HP is generally moderately good at that; see http://hp-linux.cern.ch/support/devscanner.php3 and http://hplip.sourceforge.net/ -- Hewlett-Packard's Officejet are usually pretty well supported.
-Armando
Yes, I like the way HP has that printer application built right into Kubuntu (I think it's also in other distributions). In many ways, HP seems like a model of what other manufacturers should be doing, in terms of providing support for Linux.
However...I was not happy with those pages listing "compatible devices." Sometimes, the information is wrong. They will list devices as compatible that actually are only partly compatible, or they will be listed as compatible with conditions (like having to do a whole bunch of things to get them working). I learned that the hard way!
Matthew
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Yes, I considered running Linux on top of Windows, but I have to admit I never understood the proper way to get a dual-boot working. It was easier (and more fun) for me to just wipe out Windows!-MatthewSchenker
I never really liked dual boot myself. VMs do seem like a good idea (for Windows on top of Linux & taking advantage of the Linux core).But what I was referring to was the ability of H Heron to be installed into Windows. No dual booting into one or the other. No going through a VM. Just Ubuntu working as an OS-type app in a Windows installation. Not really tested it out yet, but I do intend to install it on a Windows box and see how it goes (was rather waiting until the 8.04 bugs were reduced somewhat).
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Dormouse,
I think you're talking about Wubi. I used this for a little while, before I switched to an all-Linux system. Wubi works fine, but it does not operate quite like a full Linux system.
Matthew