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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: xtabber on May 11, 2011, 10:20 PM
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Many tech pundits (who are generally no better informed than other pundits) tell us that within a few years, we will all be running on SSD drives and only using rotating media for videos and other huge infrequently accessed files.
This cautionary tale (http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/05/the-hot-crazy-solid-state-drive-scale.html) should make folks think twice about going that route, at least until SSD devices get a little more reliable.
Note that the author is so impressed with the speed of SSDs that he is willing to live with the risk of his data drowning in the bit bucket at any moment. Can't say that I could work that way, even though I am religious about backing everything up frequently and keep ongoing work mirrored on two desktops and a laptop.
The sword of Damocles is just too distracting to be constantly worrying about, to say nothing of the cost.
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The general consensus amongst my friends is to use SSDs for OS, applications and reproducible files (compilation etc.) but not for long-time data storage.
I think the important part in the referred article is the table that shows that most of the SSDs mentioned actually broke within the warranty period. I'd hate to have my massively expensive SSD fail shortly after loosing warranty ;)
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I use a SSD for my OS & apps; I don't use it for any data at all. I take and keep images of the SSD fairly frequently which I keep on HDDs. If/when the SSD fails, I will replace it with another. The speed of the SSD is well worth the higher price - to me anyway.
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$560 for 240GB? (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227707) No wonder he heartily recommends them! He's using a referral link so he makes some commission off of every SSD someone buys due to his articles.
I can't afford to throw away that kind of money every 200 days or so.
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$560 for 240GB? (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227707)
I can't afford to throw away that kind of money every 200 days or so.
-Deozaan
But he's not throwing the money away. There is an advantage to things failing within the warranty period.
I was going to say that there can't be a real need for 240GB, but then I thought of apps that make massive use of lots of scattered bits of data files to work (eg DAWs). and I can see that I might start thinking that it might be worth it.
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$560 for 240GB? (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227707)
I can't afford to throw away that kind of money every 200 days or so.
-Deozaan
But he's not throwing the money away. There is an advantage to things failing within the warranty period. -Dormouse
Good point. I suppose it's like buy one, get 4 free.
Even still, if I had enough money to buy two of those, I could instead buy a very nice desktop computer.
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I'm sorry, but I think the salient point for me in that guys post, is that he tried to explain a technical issue via an episode of a trashy sitcom.
I can't trust that kind of knowledge. I'm in the "..not buying a new drive twice a year" crowd on this one. Don't care if they are 5 bucks a pop, I want reliability and in his list of how many days 'til failure, only one unit appeared to last more than a year, with many of them failing far before that.
Sorry, I'll wait the extra few nanoseconds which my brain can't recognize anyway, for longer more reliable storage. While there are applications for a fast storage solution, speed isn't everything and in fact it's mostly nothing.
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While there are applications for a fast storage solution, speed isn't everything and in fact it's mostly nothing.
-Daleus
I have to disagree there. While I'm not sure what you're referring to with 'fast storage' I am of the opinion that there are quite a few 'applications' for fast file access. And speed in this respect can mean lots of $$$ (and efficiency and motivation ;) )
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Reviving the thread here, but I figured I'd mention it:
I have a Corsair Nova V32 installed in this computer, and there were mixed reviews on NewEgg about it: some were saying it had been running great, others (about 5 out of several pages of 10 each) were saying around the 9-12 month mark, it was crapping out. I was shopping around for a while before I decided to chance it. I went down to the local Fry's Electronics (not wanting to wait for shipping) and had them price match it to NewEgg (saving me ~$25 before taxes). They mentioned that I wouldn't be able to give me a rebate form if I price matched, so I should do the rebate instead of price matching (saving me another $5, and it makes the store look bad to price match, as they have to document it and send it up to "corporate"). I declined and went up to pay and get my SSD, and the gal at the counter gave me my rebate form and rebate recept. I left the store paying $55 (after taxes) for an SSD going for twice as much off the shelf at Fry's, $30 more at NewEgg, leaving with more cash than expected, a thus-far reliable SSD, and a huge grin.
FWIW, I've filled the SSD (to 0 bytes remaining) several times (most recently today, actually; 7zip... >:(), and it's still going strong. I accidentally started Defraggler on it too a month or so ago, out of habit. It got about 50% done before I realized what I had started. TRIM enabled on Win7, still as fast as the day I bought it.
Link for the interested: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233122
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Those of you who have made the jump - did you tweak windows so that the often written folders (cache, virtual memory files, temp folders, user folder) are on another drive or did you just install as normal? Of course on a laptop there is no choice, it is all or nothing anyway, but on a multi drive desktop it might be worth it
PS: I used to do that on XP just to protect my files and settings through the regular reinstalls, but things seem more tangled on windows 7 - but when I dig in there are a lot of configuration, settings and files in the hidden folders under the user tree (put there automatically by apps), some of which would be sorely missed in case of a failure and are not easy to back up except with manual configuration (since the files are hidden)
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I moved swap, Desktop, Documents, Music, Movies, Downloads, and all but a couple games to the 1.5TB HDD. Anything that I was concerned about that had a cache location option got moved (game patch files, Second Life game cache, etc). Temp stays, main user folder stays (just full of virtual folders pointing to the moved ones anyways), AppData stays, etc. As it stands, I have Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit (7.84GB) on the SSD and still have 3.33GB free (of 29.8GB).
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Those of you who have made the jump - did you tweak windows so that the often written folders (cache, virtual memory files, temp folders, user folder) are on another drive or did you just install as normal?
-iphigenie
I shifted these. As much to save the space as the write limitation.
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As it stands, I have Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit (7.84GB) on the SSD
-wreckedcarzz
How appropriate. :P
Re OP:
I haven't looked recently, but given the price difference and the reliability, why not look at 10k RPM disk drives if the speed is that important? More reliable, very fast, and about the same price IIRC (at work so I can't check actual pricing). I find 7200RPM drives with lots of size options perfectly fine and very cheap for my desktop, but I have been thinking of going with either SSD or 10k RPM drives on my next build. Currently leaning toward the 10k drives, but since the build isn't that near yet, things may change.
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As it stands, I have Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit (7.84GB) on the SSD
-wreckedcarzz
How appropriate. :P
-steeladept
;D
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According to this talk, you are wasting your life if you don't own a SSD: http://www.livestream.com/oreillyconfs/video?clipId=pla_3beec3a2-54f5-4a19-8aaf-35a839b6ecaa
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According to this talk, you are wasting your life if you don't own a SSD: http://www.livestream.com/oreillyconfs/video?clipId=pla_3beec3a2-54f5-4a19-8aaf-35a839b6ecaa
-mouser
That was sexcellent~! :)
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According to this talk, you are wasting your life if you don't own a SSD: http://www.livestream.com/oreillyconfs/video?clipId=pla_3beec3a2-54f5-4a19-8aaf-35a839b6ecaa
-mouser
;D love it
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According to this talk, you are wasting your life if you don't own a SSD: http://www.livestream.com/oreillyconfs/video?clipId=pla_3beec3a2-54f5-4a19-8aaf-35a839b6ecaa
-mouser
I don't get it. What's are IOPS?
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What's are IOPS?
-Deozaan
IOPS are I/O operations Per Secondw
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Thanks.
But I still don't get it. He really expects the average person to go out and spend $1,000+ for a 600GB SSD? :huh:
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no he's talking to server administrators
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no he's talking to server administrators
-justice
So basically everything he said doesn't apply to me. I'm not wasting my life if I don't have an SSD. Got it. :)
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So basically everything he said doesn't apply to me. I'm not wasting my life if I don't have an SSD. -Deozaan
Well, seems to me you will probably be wasting some of it if you don't have one :D; rather depends on how much of your life you have to spend to earn the money to buy & fit one & what else you would do with any time saved.
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They really are much faster. Since installing one, Visual Studio is WAY faster. It's really that good.
Now, $1,000? Dunno. I have a cheapo 128 GB SSD for something like $200 or $220 (I forget). The next step up here was a grand for a 256 GB drive. Ummm... I'll skip that.
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You are wasting your life if you aren't a nudist! Think of those precious seconds wasted lowering your pants every time you have to use the toilet! Think of the seconds wasted getting dressed! Think of how much sooner you could be bathing/showering or having sex if you didn't have to get undressed first! Just imagine how much faster health services would be if you didn't have to remove your clothing and then slip into the hospital gown.
I know it may not seem like much, these few seconds here and there. But consider two things:
1. These seconds add up. If you shower every day and use the toilet two times a day, that's at least two times each day you go through the entire process of adding or removing all your clothes, and at least two times each day you partially go through the process of removing your clothes. Multiply those few seconds by every day of your life and I wouldn't be surprised if entire hours were wasted changing your state of (un)dress!
2. Multiply this time wasted by about 6 billion people on the earth and you begin to see the scale of time wasted on this trivial matter.
It's time for a modern solution to a problem that has plagued humanity for millenia. Take your clothes off and never put them on again. You are just wasting your life otherwise.
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It's worse than you think Deo! If you assume it takes about 10 seconds to get "partially undressed" (try it, it's a reasonable estimate) and about 30 to get fully undressed (remember we're talking about typical speeds here, not "I'm trying to get undressed as fast as possible), then the following is true (at a minimum):
You waste 80 seconds per day undressing.
In 1 week, you have already wasted more than *nine minutes* of time.
In just 1 month you waste 40 minutes.
In a year, you waste 8 whole hours!
In an average life of 75 years you would waste *23 and a half days*!
This is clearly a vital issue. Surely we need legislation on this, amiright?
- Oshyan
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you people are wasting your life posting!!!!
just think it took you 20 seconds to post this.. you could have spent those 10 seconds installing an ssd drive!!!
you are wasting your lives!!!!!
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you people are wasting your life posting!!!!-mouser
You heard it straight from the cat's mouth! I guess it's time for us all to give up DC. Just think of the hours you'd save every week!
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Imagine the time you waste actually doing things! You could cut it all out! Save even more!
If you cut out everything, in an average life of 75 years, you'd save 75 years!
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you people are wasting your life posting!!!!-mouser
You heard it straight from the cat's mouth! I guess it's time for us all to give up DC. Just think of the hours you'd save every week!
-Deozaan
Hmm... In light of that (considering the amount of posting I've done) maybe I'd better take a closer look at this DC involvement of mine. Especially since it comes from The Cat himself. ;)
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Thanks.
But I still don't get it. He really expects the average person to go out and spend $1,000+ for a 600GB SSD? :huh:
-Deozaan
I can remember a time when I was thinking about spending 1000$ for a 20 MB hard-drive :P
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I can remember a time when I was thinking about spending 1000$ for a 20 MB hard-drive
-phitsc
Yes, and didn't it seem a staggering amount of storage?
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Thanks.
But I still don't get it. He really expects the average person to go out and spend $1,000+ for a 600GB SSD? :huh:
-Deozaan
I can remember a time when I was thinking about spending 1000$ for a 20 MB hard-drive :P
-phitsc
Yeah, but at that time I'm pretty sure they didn't have 70MB drives that were a bit slower for $100.
Over three times as much storage space at one-tenth the price.
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I had a TI 99/4A, and the hard drives at one point were dropped from $2k to $1k. My parents weren't going to spend that much on it, so I was stuck with a tape drive. Those were slooooooooowwww...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_TI-99/4A
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Thanks.
But I still don't get it. He really expects the average person to go out and spend $1,000+ for a 600GB SSD? :huh:
-Deozaan
I can remember a time when I was thinking about spending 1000$ for a 20 MB hard-drive :P
-phitsc
Yeah, but at that time I'm pretty sure they didn't have 70MB drives that were a bit slower for $100.
Over three times as much storage space at one-tenth the price.
-Deozaan
Agreed. I think it was actually the *only* one available ;)
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You are wasting your life if you aren't a nudist! ... -Deozaan
I've decided to strip the case off my six month old OCZ SSD so it'll be faster!
My other SSD is in a laptop. If I strip the case off that one will it still be faster?
Has anyone seen any forum posts on stripping outer cases off SSDs and making them nude for speed yet? ;D
I use one computer for all my TV, all my live streamcasts in language, scanning, as a NAS, to transcribe audio files, and to occasionally edit a video, so startup was getting excruciating. I bought my first SSD for that PC, 60GB, and I'm very happy I did. I didn't shift my Windows system files, but I moved all the music and data onto another drive. I moved a bunch of programs onto the other drive too, and install them there whenever I can, although sometimes I end up putting them back on the "C:" due to install problems.
My laptop on my nightstand with a chair on the other side also running all day is an old Thinkpad T23 in a real bad spot in this fourth floor apartment of mine of twenty months. The window toward the main road is high up on the wall and I need to look out a lot to watch the excitement (hawks on the church roof across the street, ambulances for the elderly in the building here, buses stopping, traffic accidents, carnivals when they close the road, etc). I have an old very sturdy speaker stand tucked in I can stand on, between the bed and the laptop. I kept bumping the laptop, and this round of drive replacement was coming way too early. I think I was about to buy a fifth drive for it when I realized how happy I was with the first SSD. I found an IDE interface SSD for it about three months ago. This all broke the bank, but I expect I'll get long life out of them.
BTW, I've got another screen from my PC to my bedroom for TV, video, etc, so I can walk around and not lose my concentration, hooked to the laptop by Input Director. Actually, this is the home of the 'triple double.' I've got the PC in a central location, with one pair of wires to the bedroom for double screen there, and two in the other direction for the entry room.
Now I'm going to go back to the top of this forum and read the article that started this. I'm not scared....very.
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I am running my laptop on a puppylinux 2gig kingston usb flash drive for 6 months 2/7.Paid $5 3 years ago for it. No problems yet.:)
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you could have spent those 10 seconds installing an ssd drive!!!
-mouser
BTW: You left out the part where they'd also be spending $200-300 "just doing it." :P
(@25$/hr that would be like wasting 8 hours of your working life if SSD didn't perform for you.) 8)
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I've been using an SSD as my OS disk for 6 months or so, and I agree that it's a "transformative" experience, particularly with Windows: for example rebooting is no longer something I avoid at all costs, because reboots are so quick. The use of TRIM in Win7 should reduce SDD failures.
Like most people, all data is on an HDD, as are temp files, cache files etc. But I wouldn't go back to an HDD for an OS disk.
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Bringing this thread a bit back on track... :)
I've got a 64GB Intel X25-E in my workstation, installed around... May or June 2009, iirc (stupid ambiguous American date format on the invoice! - probably have the precise date scribbled down somewhere). Not a single hiccup, and (still) great performance after a fair amount of abuse. That is the ridiculously expensive SLC-flash enterprise-level SSD, though.
14. Mar. 2011 I got a 120GB OCZ Vertex2 for my laptop. Seemed like a nice drive, pretty fast etc. Less than a month and a half later, with very light use, the drive went AWOL. I had done a (clean) shutdown of Win7 the night before, and upon powering up the machine the drive simply wasn't recognized by the machine - nor any of my desktops. Tried leaving it unconnected for 24 hours as per forum recommendations, still no go. Status LEDs on the drive were green.
Dunno what happened to the drive, but apparently it's sorta normal for (some?) sandforce based drives to go into a panic state when resuming from standby (weird that mine bugged out from a shutdown+start and not standby). That's veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery encouraging. Fscking retarded firmware, or a hardware bug? Dunno. And apparently some of the current-gen Intel drives have had problems too, wonderful.
The current situation really sucks. SSDs were supposed to fail 'gracefully' - memory cells that have reached their lifetime and can no longer be written to (well, erased), but are still readable... or at the very least, only a few blocks of memory with corruption compared to the sometimes spectacular HDD failures.
In reality, we get drives that fail without any warning, with moderate use, within a few months? Eek.
That said, I still like SSDs. Call me a motörhead if you will, but the speed is simply too delicious. Just gotta have backups, as always.