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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: Paul Keith on October 18, 2011, 02:02 AM

Title: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on October 18, 2011, 02:02 AM
(http://www.nikkichau.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Screen-shot-2011-10-07-at-10.34.45-PM-300x154.png)

Not alot of content but interesting premise. The notable tidbits (entire text below is from the article):

http://www.nikkichau.com/2011/10/08/beyond-gamification-designing-up-maslow-pyramid/

The outpouring of love for Steve Jobs over the past couple days is summed up by Techcrunch writer John Biggs: “Apple and Jobs brought something to technology that it didn’t have before he began – irrationality.”

But should we really characterize the intense consumer devotion to the iPhone as an addiction? A recent experiment that I carried out using neuroimaging technology suggests that drug-related terms like “addiction” and “fix” aren’t as scientifically accurate as a word we use to describe our most cherished personal relationships. That word is “love.” – Martin Lindstrom

Apple has aggressively worked on accessibility for users who are blind or deaf or have other limitations, an effort that makes no “business sense” but surely makes human sense if you read that or any of the countless other articles about what a boon the iPhone has been to the blind.

Here’s my take: people love their Apple products, so they love the person(s) making it possible. Beyond word processing and making spreadsheets, they have an emotional connection to their devices. But don’t take my words for it. It turned out through neuroimaging that You Love Your iPhone. Literally.

My questions: What are examples of products in each of Maslow’s level? What do they do? What are their characteristics? What works? What doesn’t work? Most importantly, how do we design to serve up the pyramid, all the way to the Self-Actualization level?
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on October 18, 2011, 07:00 AM
Well, whilst this might sound like "a great idea", it might not be such a great idea in practice for two reasons at least.

In the first place: "gamification" is just another bullsh*t bingo buzzword. - i.e., it sounds great, but it means nothing except maybe what you want it to (per Tweedledum and Tweedledee), and so lacks definition and is ambiguous. Thus, when used in a rational argument it can contribute to invalidating the argument, so it is a probably a piece of BS best avoided if when attempting to make a rational argument or make some clear communication.

In the second place: even if you avoid the BS and thus risky word "gamification", in business terms there could be a great deal of risk involved for any business attempting to base a marketing strategy on "Maslow’s Pyramid" as a market model.

The latter would be because Maslow's hierarchy of needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs) is an imaginary thing. It is an artificial theoretical construct in the domain of psychology and apparently is still not necessarily substantiated by any scientific research/proof (since 1943). In fact, the reverse would seem to be the case - i.e., the validity of the theory has apparently been brought into question by some research.

It would therefore seem as though no rational basis exists for believing that Maslow's HON bears much of relevance to actual human buying behaviours.

However, one thing that is certain about buying behaviour is that it is irrational, which is why some of the most successful marketing works - it manipulates people at a deep subconcious level - e.g., you might buy an Apple iPhone or an iPad because (say) you just "like" it or believe it is "just great technology" or worship Steve Jobs/Apple, or all of these things, and then you might only later try to rationalise your decision to buy it.

This would seem to have more to do with people's apparent capacity for irrational belief  - e.g., religion: in an imaginary invisible supreme being - than it does with getting something that supports their imagined (QED) "hierarchy of needs", unless of course you consider that maybe we might all need to believe in imaginary things - e.g., such as fairies (hat tip to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle).

Having said this, there is nothing necessarily wrong in irrationally buying something - e.g., if for no other reason than because you like it. It is quite human! For example, I bought the car I have today because, of the various options I could afford at the time, I really liked this one a lot more than the others. The buying clincher was that I could negotiate a significant extra trade-in discount from the dealer (cost is always a major deciding factor for me).
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: 40hz on October 18, 2011, 08:07 AM
It's my understanding that motivational models may have relevance when it comes to encouraging category purchasing behaviors. Such as deciding whether to redecorate a home or go on an extended vacation. But they have not been all that effective in predicting or motivating a specific behavior within a category.

Basically that's saying you can lead a thirsty horse to the water - but you can't make him order a Dr. Pepper. :)

A lot of papers came out in the late 70s that got into that since it was a time when much of Mallow's work was being openly questioned. One representative example can be found here (http://www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/display.asp?id=9488). The study that started the ball rolling was some research done by Mahmoud Ahmed Wahba and Lawrence Gail Bridwelland who authored a paper entitled Maslow reconsidered: a review of research on the need hierarchy theory. That's the one I read for my behavioral psych course. (I did a search, hoping to find a copy up on the web. Unfortunately, it will cost you about $42 to get a PDF since the paper's text is not available online.)

One more thing: Am I crazy for thinking about this in product design?

Maybe Nikki Chau could better answer her own question if she did a tiny bit of scholarly research and perhaps a little bit less meditating on the subject?

Because right now it seems that question is equivalent to asking if it's crazy trying to use a paint brush to drive a screw.

------

+1 w/IainB on "gamification." Ugly construct that word is. Especially when, in the context it's being used in, you could just as easily have said 'manipulation.'
 8)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on October 18, 2011, 10:38 AM
One more thing: Am I crazy for thinking about this in product design?

Maybe Nikki Chau could better answer her own question if she did a tiny bit of scholarly research and perhaps a little bit less meditating on the subject?

Because right now it seems that question is equivalent to asking if it's crazy trying to use a paint brush to drive a screw.

It seems to me that Nikki Chau is not crazy, just normally irrational - and possibly a tad lazy as well, intellectually, for apparently not doing the (any?) necessary research.
I suspect that she might not in fact be able to better answer her own question - even if she had done some research and less meditating.

It is generally true that we think with what we know, and we use language (one of the things we know) to articulate that thinking and communicate it. If you don't know all that much (not done the research) and if you use use poorly-defined or ambiguous terminology both to think with and to communicate that thinking, then you are likely to end up with the sort of sloppy/muddled thinking that seems to be in evidence in Nikki Chau's article - i.e., it is half-baked.

The analogy of trying to use a paint brush to drive a screw conjours up an amusing image, but it's probably not precise enough. A paintbrush is at least a tangible, concrete thing, whereas the idea of using Maslow's hierarchy of needs to drive product design would akin to using an abstract (intangible figment) of our imagination as a screw driver - Telekinesis anyone?

In my book, the potential for critical thinking of anyone who would blog about yoga is arguably suspect anyway.
Excuse me whilst I go and practice my yogic flying.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on October 18, 2011, 01:38 PM
Lol, you guys made so many great points it's hard to know where to begin.

I can't really speak for Nikki obviously but as I'm also one of those who refer to Maslow's hierarchy of needs loosely in my own writing, I think what makes it so appealing to refer to that concept is not so much the existence of the hierarchy itself but the final step of self-actualization which depending on how you interpret it has elements of buzz and manipulation to it too.

In many ways both self-actualization and gamification has elements to it that make it both buzz words and yet "above buzz words compared to most buzz words".

Two examples of these types of words are Apple and social media.

Almost everyone has their opinion on Apple here already and I really don't want to touch this because I'm not really an Apple fan so let's go with social media.

If you look at social media, it almost started hand in hand with the buzz word of Web 2.0. One thing was different in the two words though. Web 2.0's legacy is what exactly? No one really knows. What is social media's legacy on the other hand? It boosted the discovery of news on the internet and made it easier to consume. You could say the latter didn't have any direct impact but while I do feel Digg was overrated, it's hard to deny Digg's presence in influencing Reddit and other voting services which in turn resulted in things like Twitter and Facebook "Like" buttons as stuff like social media sharing buttons spread around the concept is what then boosted the motivation to develop such concepts as social curation and cross-sharing further than what designers and coders would have intended.

In many ways, this I think was the heart of the blogger's post. Yes, she could have done her research but I think at the same time, if she had done her research, it would simply have led her to omit mentioning Maslow's hierarchy of needs at all.

It even applies to marketing. In my opinion there's two overlaying definition of marketing. One marketing is the attempt of making lesser products look, sound, feel better beyond the capabilities of aesthetic design. This is the manipulation part. Especially the math aspect which goes into lengths to profile people as habitual yet easily predictable by statistics species. The other marketing though is the attempt at making an overlooked product become more looked upon by connecting it with people's needs.

In my opinion the great companies corporations often mix these two and Apple is no exception. Even if there were some questions to Apple's marketing earlier on, the latter history of Apple cannot be denied for popularizing and revitalizing the portable music market and the tablet/ppc market.

Which goes back to the heart of what the blogger posted. Even if Maslow's theory is less of a theory and more of a hypothesis, what makes the writer's post notable is that she did not say let's design "around" Maslow's theory but rather let's design "up". Up again involving the wording of self-actualization which Wikipedia quotes as:

"the desire for self-fulfillment, namely the tendency for him [the individual] to become actualized in what he is potentially. This tendency might be phrased as the desire to become more and more what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming."

Does this sound like a call to manipulate people? I feel so. Especially when she's calling for consumer products to be the equivalent of what fulfills the identity of a person in it's most upmost peak and equating it with feelings. The problem though is this: many people are already manipulated.

If the internet goes down, there are people like me who feel taken out of our realities. If our favorite software breaks, many people would emotionally feel something cast down upon them whether it's anger or frustration or depression regardless of how momentary. And it exists because even without marketing, what are the goals of a designer? What are the goals of a coder? Many of those elements overlap with the goals of marketing especially when it comes to user interface design. In fact, often times it's worse. The lack of marketing is what leads cultures like many Linux distroes to simply offer a Mac looking product if it's what's consider aesthetically appealing. Then if a netbook design comes out and becomes popular, there's a Linux based design optimized for netbooks. (Which is really just saying they have big and bulgy icons)

Which leads us back to the buzz words. Yes, gamification is bad. Especially the Zynga kind. At the same time, prior to gamification, few services even dabbled in gamification. The ones that do, people often delegate to such popular services that the future designers try to "copy" or "plagiarize" from those services the design rather than offer up a concept that applies to the heart of why those designs work. Take Gmail's star and "labelling" or take Twitter's "follow" button or take Facebook's "collect your friend" concept. These preluded gamification's popularity but at the same time these are the origins for what would make the buzz word more than a buzz word.

Finally, this is at the heart in my opinion of anything that tries to say "design up". Ignorant or not, this is akin to a customer saying "Please I don't know why I want this but there's something about this that I want. Please try to do something about it even though I don't know what it is." In a scenario such as this, the customer is the one asking to be manipulated. But maybe you don't want people like Nikki to be your customer. Especially as freeware and donationware doesn't have customers but rather have users. The problem with this statement though is that most of the freeware/donationware coders either then wonder why people use or know their products less which then makes them turn around and be happy that a manipulative media like a popular blog would then blog and advertise that their program exists. The culture then tries to eat their own cake and have it too and opts instead to try cheaper copies of already popular software and then it's the Apple that then gets people to pay attention and then if there's enough demand, the designers then tries to go around their perspectives by trying to design a software that may not copy Apple's look and feel but which they then would try to offer on the Iphone or the Android. Why? Because they either eventually hop over or they get accused of not taking their userbase' needs into consideration. Needs that by then have validly move towards less marketing or user interface models and into things like a coder simply making a software available on the most used operating system. This doesn't mean that the flaws of gamification and Maslow can't be a topic especially since a writer brought it into the forefront - but at the same time, why not go further? Why not criticize what the writer got wrong but also set things straight on how to help the topic maker reach their needs while pointing out how it doesn't even need Maslow or gamification or how it's already been done and how it can be done? Of course I'm not demanding anything. Nope. This isn't even a request. Just adding my own input to why this flawed article is still interesting and why the quotes have notable tidbits.

As far as the paint brush and the screw analogy goes, it falls apart because the writer is not talking about working or building on an object but building up to an object. It'd be more like a basic question on how we can improve both the design of the paint brush and the screw so that more people would understand the history and the needs and the origins of the different terminologies behind tasks surrounding those tools without having to hope to know a screw or paint brush expert. Especially people who simply want to get on with their lives and paint or screw something. If you then notice, the optimal solution to this problem ends up being far different from the premise of a problem. In both the screw and the paint brush dilemma, the web developers who built the technology behind a wiki and whoever was responsible for popularizing Wikipedia to people who then know about the details behind each screw and each paint brush ends up delivering the more optimized need rather than the carpenter who looks down upon a fool using a paint brush as a screw. Not that you need Wikipedia nor is Wikipedia the best source for information on the internet for screws and paintbrushes. It's application as an introduction to everything simply manipulates most user to use the pages in it as their priority much as many manipulate themselves into buying into the first few SEO'd pages on the subject less they know of a screw or paint brush expert.

Edit: Damn it! I just realize I could have shortened my reply by simply referencing back to how a "personal desktop computer" was once merely a buzz word too. So sorry about this.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on October 19, 2011, 03:21 AM
At the risk of expending more of my cognitive surplus than I would usually like to expend on discussing something as daft as what a writer might have meant in a post where she apparently may not have understood what she meant herself in the first place:

There seems to be a great deal of material in published form and on the internet relating to the idea of the alignment of design with Maslow’s theoretical 5-level hierarchy of needs - e.g., there is the book "Maslow, Sustainability and Design Like You Give a Damn" by Cameron Sinclair and Kate Stohr. It's probably mostly BS unless you operate on an assumption along the lines (for example) that architects have forgotton that housing is intended to provide secure, healthy and cost-efficient human habitation with protection from the elements - i.e., things that could align with Maslow's hierarchy, never mind building regulations.
A lot of this material seems to be what some bloggers and news-agencies refer to as "t*rd-eating", where you take someone else's publication, idea or post, re-digest it and regurgitate it with your flavour - it's a form of plagiarism, but I suppose that it at least fills some whitespace with print, gets discussion going on your blog and might keep the hits coming.

So, where Nikki Chau says:
One more thing: Am I crazy for thinking about this in product design?
- she may be being disingenuous in an attempt to conceal her plagiarism. Of course that's not very likely. (Yeah, right.)

In any event, I took the term "Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid" to refer to the idea of product design being applied to the categories in "Maslow’s Pyramid", in an upwards direction - i.e., from bottom to top, where "Self-actualisation" is the topmost category in the hierarchy of needs. Whilst I would give Nikki Chau an "F" for the post if it were an essay intended to display good research and critical thinking, I would not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The (plagiarised?) idea is at least still interesting in itself, and it has some merit in that marketing theory, models and practice address the market needs first and foremost. This is different to the old producer-led model of pumping out products to unsophisticated markets regardless of what the consumers might have wanted or thought they needed.
For example:
"You can have any color Ford you want as long as it's black."

The other thing that you can do with good marketing is create a market by creating a need where there was none before. This is the quintessential Holy Grail of marketing.
Typical examples might be: the Apple iPad; off-road SUVs; Philip Morris International selling Marlboro cigarettes to children in Indonesia and other blighted third-world countries; drug barons, drug cartels and pharmaceutical companies are doing this sort of thing all the time in most Western and third-world countries. It's good for business.

Maslow’s theoretical 5-level hierarchy of needs:
1.0 Self-actualisation
     1.0.1 Esteem
          1.0.1.1 Love/belonging
               1.0.1.1.1 Safety
                    1.0.1.1.1. Physiological

I have drawn it as a linear hierarchy of parent/child categories, to illustrate that it would be unlikely in Maslow's model for an individual with D-needs ("Deficiency needs") to address (say) meeting the need for self-actualisation, without first having progressed through the lower levels - especially meeting the basic physiological needs of food and shelter.
Wikipedia: Maslow's theory suggests that the most basic level of needs must be met before the individual will strongly desire (or focus motivation upon) the secondary or higher level needs.

However, the theory suggests that a person with B-needs ("Being needs") could be an exception to the above, being "metamotivated" and would have the potential to transcend the four base categories so as to arrive at the 5th category. If this sort of ideal seems familiar, it might be because you spotted it in Heaven's Gate:
Hop on that spaceship tailing the Hale-Bopp asteroid with me baby, and we'll transcend humanity together - it's the last bus outta here!
Irrational religious belief and wish-fulfillment.

Some people might suggest that an implication of Maslow's hierarchy is that theoretically it could be be unlikely for a homeless person to achieve self-actualisation. However, some Indian Hindu fakirs might be able to show them otherwise, so maybe the fakirs are "metamotivated" or the theory is bunkum.
"Metamotivated" is arguably BS anyway, but we'd probably all like to feel that we were thusly motivated, because, heck - it sounds great, and much more important than being just "motivated".
I'm metamotivated baby!
(Sounds like something from the drugged sixties that Austin Powers would have said.)

The good news is that some rational psychological studies have found some interesting evidence that people seem to be motivated differently along a spectrum of exogenous to endogenous - e.g., there are those who address life's problems with a strong locus of internal control (endogenous), and those who have a weak locus of internal control and who thus expect problem-solving to be exogenous. There is a thing called a "miner sentence completion test" that discovers where an individual fits on the spectrum.
Having a strong locus of internal control merely means that one accepts a degree of responsibility for what happens to oneself and for what one does about it - e.g., addressing/resolving any of life's problems.

One of the great things about this theory of Maslow's was that it provided what was a completely new (in 1943) concept - an artificial framework of reference - with which to think about and try to better understand the human condition.
It is therefore a potentially useful thinking tool, and IMHO one not to be sniffed at if we value the process of thinking critically about our existence or purpose.
Unfortunately, there seems to be a preponderance of BS spouted on the subject. I hope I haven't contributed to the heap.
Excuse me, I must stop here as I see that I have self-actualised all over the carpet, and my wife wants me to clean it up.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on October 19, 2011, 10:35 PM
I don't know much about the specifics of marketing theory but I did chance upon an assertion that marketing cannot create needs where there was none.

That said, I don't find your statement incorrect at all especially as you did specifically say "where there was none before".

That's kind of the controversial thing about marketing though. The two aspects don't always align.

One aspect treats marketing like developing cult-inducing media. The other aspect insists that there must be a need in there in order for a marketer to be able to do something about it.

When you combine this with concepts that do provide things where there was none before such as tech and then the aspects of tech that involve designing for ease and usability...and then those aspects, once performed well along with marketing, enabling a new form of demand to surface... it's simply tough to discredit the power of buzz as there's a finite amount of capable developers and even more finite amount of developers willing to go for the grain of usability that is married to developing original software that words such as gamification, intentional or unintentional, simply have their influence on the culture in general regardless whether it is based on hate or not. It influences direction and thankfully, often direction where people copy less used concepts rather than many of the older rehashed designs.

In some ways, the same can be said for turd eating. Even if we take away the aspect of essay writing or research into the equation: Blogosphere + Wikipedia crowd = massive turd eating. It's almost a necessity. Much as a blogger must add pictures to his texts and make it both SEO and reader friendly, people do simply take simple models like Maslow's theory and insert it into making a statement in the hopes that bringing something like that up is what will get people to talk about it. This is regardless of whether they have thought through what they were writing.

Yet, at the same, you have a scenario here where once you expand on the fallacious concept of Maslow - you simply build the case for it.

In this case, your latter post falls apart in that you try to simply tackle Maslow and why it's false with an analogy that doesn't address the designer request the author was saying. This designer request, if we were to simply view it as a designer request, ignores both 1.0.1.1.1 simply for the fact that this post is not talking about hardware or software security and that the author is aiming this more at the usability criteria when she says one has to build up to Maslow.

Treating her statement as merely a focus towards desktop or desktop-like (ex. tablet OSs, hardware ease of use design) needs then even though Maslow's assumption is flawed, it's not quite flawed when one is thinking of product design especially as even technical minded people decry upon buggy and unsafe software. In this scenario, physiology and safety are already demanded by software and hardware consumers. Building up love and belonging is then due to a product being so good that we get used to living with it and feel more euphoric living with it. (Example: the internet as it's layed out and presented today by modern browsers along with easier to register and start with online services)

In such a model, the call to build up something towards Maslow's model could simply be seen as desiring for better product design.

...but where one is often at a loss when trying to describe a product that is as usable as Apple to an Apple fanatic but is at the same time, not an Apple clone but an entirely new and different way of usability and comfort all together... this author simply hides behind Maslow's model to simplify such request.

Of course the controversy then is that many people view products with emotional connections as often being based on marketing and cult-making designs. The problem here is that even if we take away the marketing, can anyone of us really say it's so easy to reject not playing a gaming console with zero marketing with all it's games available inside our house for free even though it's all just some paper taped on the box to tell you what the names of the games are? I doubt it.

Well that's Ipads, off-road SUVs, cigarettes too. More importantly, often times, people claim the way to cure them of those addictive products is another addictive design. In such a scenario, is it then so wrong to desire addictive products especially more made for casual or niche needs software such as MS Office alternatives, Tablet PCs, mp3 players, online services, etc? I leave this up to the reader.

However, is the pursuit for addictive design so negative consider the success of the Ipod design as being what got other enablers to provide more "better" alternatives than the previous status quo?

The list goes on and on.

Without the demand for the OLPC, there's no netbook market.

Without Web 2.0 buzzword, there's less attempt at people trying to fill up the tag of being one of the top Web 2.0 services.

Without gamification, would people consider looking at games for reference on what design motivates and makes designs more usable?

Even in games, it wasn't until when technology got good enough with the PS2 and Dreamcast and X-box, that we start seeing developers adding rpg concepts on other genres in bulk even though DOS games prove that it could work and worked wonderfully at making games actually be more fun. Yet few did it until some mainstream thing got so popular, people re-copied it even though their take may not be as good.

...And esteem and self-actualization, whether we like it or not drives our humanity.

People go on to be artists upon being inspired by the greats of the past (not most of the actual greats, whose works are mainstream enough to reach their ears as a kid).

People go on to be early gen coders while feeling something euphoric upon viewing this mechanized thing with it's terminals and BBS and beautiful unknown creature so much so that in Cronenberg's videogame inspired movie existenz and videodrome, technology was organic and alien and where the viewer may be disgusted - the people in those universes, just as certain people today with Apple, treat those items as products that build up their identity and love and confidence, etc.

Whether we like it or not, technology is now a need. We've pumped it into our psychology. Is it really then so wrong to not build up on that technology especially as even today, developers do improve and upgrade their software. Regardless whether there's a guy that hates Apple products and prefers Linux, if he's a coder, he's working on improving Linux towards that state of cult worship if it isn't already this way currently and for the author even though current product design may have already tackled this issue, the reason they may be bringing up a flawed model like Maslow is because maybe they aren't seeing many products that tickle their emotions such as Apple products.

It may not even be Apple. They may just want more innovative products (from their casual definition of product design fulfilling non-techie emotional needs) much the same as the way Apple went against the critics and prove everyone wrong about the demand for Tablet PCs. They may not even want someone creating a demand out of nothing before. They may instead want someone to simply build up towards Apple for Apple fans but for different groups. It may simply be a request that due to ignorance and the ease of blogging became what would end up as a blog post about building up to Maslow's model.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on October 21, 2011, 05:48 AM
I don't know much about the specifics of marketing theory but I did chance upon an assertion that marketing cannot create needs where there was none.
I usually would advise caution when assertions are being made, because they can generally be meaningless if not substantiated by fact or at least solid theory.
"The earth is flat." - an assertion that was based on a not-so-solid "theory" - and it would have remained flat if Copernicus had not messed things up with his ruddy rational mathematical proofs, observations and theories. Mankind has seemed to need fairy stories (myths, religions) for ever, and it hurts when those myths are blasted away. Copernicus was lucky to get out of it alive.
So, the assertion that "marketing cannot create needs" may be as useful as the statement that "the earth is flat".

Conversely, I don't know that anyone asserted absolutely that marketing can definitely create new markets by creating a new need where there was none before, but it is certainly the sort of thing that marketing students were taught that they should aim for in Marketing 101.

It is often debated that maybe you can't really create a new need where there was none before, and that it might simply be that you discover something that was already there - a latent or potential need. Certainly, SUVs are an interesting case, and marketers believe that sort of thing to be a consummate achievement of marketing.
I think it was British Leyland/Landrover that started the SUV concept off in the '70s, by producing an up-market and more comfortable version of the hardy utility Landrover called a Range Rover. The A1s (e.g., Princess Anne and her hubby Mark) would tend to buy them to drive them and their retrievers to their riding/hunt events or grouse shoots, so it was instantly OK with the A1s and the Chelsea set and the B1s who aspired to being and wanted to emulate the A1s. It created a new market for what might have formerly been considered an impractical vehicle, and the market has evolved so that an SUV is commonplace and people now feel they need one and don't have to justify it. It is more likely that they want one at a deep subconscious level because they have been so conditioned and have probably got into a state of Ahamkara (http://knol.google.com/k/slartibartfarst-anon/ahamkara/3twzpmiarr7la/3#) over it. Happens all the time.

For example, Oakley-branded sunglasses. Nike-branded hoodies. In some cities, impoverished youths will apparently even mug you if you are wearing these things - just to steal them from you - because they "need" them so bad to feel "self-actualised".
Nothing wrong in this. It's good for business and economic growth. However, I personally wonder whether we may risk being debased and limited in our self-development by succumbing to the various marketing ploys, against which we may have poor defences to their subtle intrusion. At the same time, having studied marketing and psychology, I cannot but be admiringly appreciative of the way in which the application of good marketing theory, strategy and tactics can manipulate whole markets and the minds of the people in those markets - e.g., Apple and the Church of the late and great Steve Jobs, selling new cereal products for children via TV commercials. These are not points put forward to argue, nor are they opinions, just interesting questions/observations that occur to me.

Following on from this, I am not sure that I can usefully contribute to a good deal of your post, as (though I could be wrong, of course) you seem to be entering a debate about things using ambiguous terminology that probably needs definition before I can fully understand what you are intending to mean.
For example, "marketing" and "gamification" - I have my definition for the former, but I suspect it may not be the same as yours, judging from how you use the term, and I have no definition at all for the latter, as it is currently meaningless BS to me (QED).
I learned to do this (define my terms in a discussion) by watching a BBC TV programme called "The Brains Trust" on our B&W TV when I was a child. There was a panel of erudite scholars and philosophers who were posed a subject to discuss. When sloppy definition cropped up, one particular wise professor would tend to say, "Well, it all depends what you mean by [insert term]...". For all I know, you might be able to make all sorts of valid arguments using the term "gamification" - if it had an agreed definition to contribute to a logical proposition.

So I won't enter into a debate about those things, if you don't mind.
Thus, where you say:
...your latter post falls apart...
- I am at a loss, as there seems to be nothing to "fall apart". Whilst it might be badly/hastily written, I was not trying to structure a proposition or argument for debate, but was genarally merely pointing out that Maslow's theory would seem to be a weak thing on which to base an argument for anything, because the research that relates to it has apparently only been able to throw the whole thing into question - i.e., the opposite of substantiating it (QED). There is apparently no proof that the theory holds out in practice (QED).
This would be quite the reverse, for example, to the validity of the theory (unverifiable at the time it was proposed) of gravitational lenses postulated by Einstein.

Thus the thesis of  Nikki Chau's post is definitely invalid to start with, so why waste time discussing an invalid proposition unless it is to explore the reasons why it is invalid? That's arguably likely to be the only useful thing (analysis of reasoning as to why the argument is invalid) that could be gained from discussing it. Otherwise we might be better off - and have more fun - debating (say) the existence of winged fairies (because everyone already knows that the wingless variety exists as pixies).

Similarly, I am at a loss when you say:
..and that the author is aiming this more at...
- as I have no idea what she is aiming at, and I don't see how you can have special knowledge of what she is aiming at either, when what she is saying is irrational (QED).    ;)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on October 21, 2011, 02:40 PM
Lol, true true. I guess in this case, the assertion was from a book but I consider the book to be marketing fluff though to be fair compared to the other fluff out there, this one at least had a few data thrown in but I still can't help but feel like I was reading an ad in the end. It's why I was hesitant to throw out that statement.

I never took any Marketing 101 classes but yeah selling the dream is so wide spread around the internet, I'm kind of disappointed at hearing your hint about Marketing 101 but I guess that's kind of the nature of what happens when marketing becomes distilled into a generic class. It is kind of ironic. The goal of marketing is to improve the brand of a product and yet the actual brand of marketing is so piss poor, it seems to only stand on it's reputation of convincing companies that there's a charlatan here who can magically bring you profits while showing colorful charts to explain why it's going to work.

I sincerely thank you for sharing that link on ahamkara. Coincidentally I'm currently reading the English version of the Bhagavad Gita and I might have glossed over many of these complicated words without realizing that they have a much deeper meaning to them. (or it might be that I haven't gotten to it yet, I didn't quite know what I was getting into when I read this. Too much Krishna this and Krishna that so far)

Yeah, you could say marketing's ultimate goal is the opposite of ahamkara.

Using some of your examples in that link, a moral marketer may instead:

Convince a sensible young man to feel that his new sports car was a reflection of his true self and to not drive through recklessly with it without taking heavy precautions just as he would not recklessly endanger his own body.

Convince someone who believe in the fight for peace, and who ordinarily might behave in a non-violent manner, to come to blows with someone who threatened or challenged his notions of peace via more effective non-violence even in the face of wanting to purse violence.

Of course this is all hypothetical. I don't think or believe actual moral marketers do this but in the hypothetical sense of ahamkara, marketers would rather deal with the illusions and utilize it into a direction than expound it unless it provides them with any leverage but what leverage is there in a product reliant world full of product ignorant users? People can't even have modern empathy for global warming without a marketed propaganda movie in the Inconvenient Truth style.

I don't know if Oakley-branded glasses are a good example for self-actualization though. It seems more rooted in safety + love/belonging. Safety in that they can acquire something expensive to sell and belonging in that they managed to be the ones good enough to acquire and wear one among their neighborhood. Mind you I don't even know what Oakley-branded glasses are. I simply don't have any inkling for any branded glasses. I get one. I buy one. I wear one. That's always been my perspective of sunglasses. If there's a convincing factor, it's the tint of the glasses not the brand for me. However it does sound like a luxury item and well this is the casual perspective of luxury items for any one living in slum-like environments.

I think as far as both marketing and gamification goes, I did try to throw out my specific definition for marketing by laying it over two overlaying aspects. As far as gamification goes, something more specific to me would be role defining marketing. If you look at many of the gamification aspects, they don't try to turn objects into games (at least not to the extent that we would view videogames) but instead they adopt elements specifically those of the rpg genres that other genres would later adopt to their games. Badges I feel are just a primitive example rooted more around the original scouting for what would eventually be social gaming. A concept that basically took everything that worked in browser based games such as flash and online rpgs that have less graphics combined it with the Sims and then added on top of free to play/pay to compete design. I don't have a background on social gaming either though. This is just my opinion even before Farmville got released and I sincerely believe any Harvest Moon fan no matter how hardcore or casual has figured out the social gaming model even if they haven't played one social game nor know any programming.

As far as more concrete less theoretical examples, I do have a jot on fun theory:

http://subjot.com/Foolness/fun+theory+videos

Not trying to advertise my profile, that link just has my curated collection of examples that both fit my definition of marketing and gamification all in one link which makes it more convenient for me to just paste this then look for any specific example to represent my viewpoint.

As far as Maslow's model being weak, it's why I said:

Yet, at the same, you have a scenario here where once you expand on the fallacious concept of Maslow - you simply build the case for it.

Where Maslow's model is weak at addressing humanity, applied to product design, it is stronger and thus why I said in the effort to expound on it's weakness - you've simply highlighted it's strengths by expanding on the weakness of humanity's desire for products as well as the make up of what entails a marketed product.

Which in turn makes it so that when Nikki's original post was weak to begin with, it becomes stronger with your words as you highlight more and more the difference between human needs for products and basic human needs.

Finally, as for knowing where she's aiming, all bloggers aim for an audience and right now if you zoom out on this thread - it seems like her topic have generated quite a conversation. No thanks to the both of us.  :P
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on October 22, 2011, 05:35 AM
Thought-provoking response!

I sincerely thank you for sharing that link on ahamkara.
Thank YOU. I learned about this concept in about 1994, when I attended a series of educational sessions at The School of Philosophy (http://www.philosophy.org.nz/) in Wellington, New Zealand. I was mindboggled by it at first. I found it to be one of the most profoundly useful concepts that I have come across, and it helps to explain a state of being or perception that I had hitherto been unable to understand. It helped me to understand myself a little more. I am so pleased if the link has proved useful. Please pass it on.

I don't know if Oakley-branded glasses are a good example for self-actualization though.
No they are probably not, depending on how you define "self-actualization", but I have no idea what "self-actualization" means.
I was trying to make a joke by mocking Maslow's idea of "self-actualisation" being at the top of the hierarchy - and by association so might be the thugs doing the mugging.
You see, if Maslow's theory has been debunked (QED), then so has his idea of "self-actualisation". It's all part and parcel of the same thing. You can't pick a piece out of a logically invalid/irrational structure and use it as though it were magically valid/rational just because you might (say) like the sound of it. It is and will remain BS for all practical purposes. That's why I wrote above:
...I have self-actualised all over the carpet...
- the whole idea is stupid/funny.

Of course this is all hypothetical. I don't think or believe actual moral marketers do this...
LOL. "Moral marketers" - a novel concept. An oxymoron.

Yet, at the same, you have a scenario here where once you expand on the fallacious concept of Maslow - you simply build the case for it.
Eh? Who is this guy Maslow anyway?     ;)

...when Nikki's original post...
And who the heck is Nikki?
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on October 22, 2011, 10:18 PM
Debunking self-actualization is certainly an interesting thing especially from a Hindu (Buddhism?) perspective.

My understanding of self-actualization is that Maslow simply meant that when one has met a natural set of needs, then enlightenment can happen which is what self-actualization means.

Example, Gautama achieved arguably the pinnacle of safety, love, esteem that an average being can achieve. With these things in set, then his mind was in a state of peace that he "can" (in the mental sense) drop the lower hierarchies.

Albeit Maslow wasn't insisting on self-actualization as enlightenment but the concept of self-actualization seems to still match with many rich people eventually discovering solidarity or many intelligent people (say programmers and mathematicians) eventually discovering/promoting innovation because many of the lower needs were met by their growth paths that many of those in poverty both mentally and physically had no room to move about on.

This doesn't mean that self-actualization can't be wrong, just showing that the way Maslow sets up self actualization it not only is not determinant on the lower hierarchies being right or wrong, it's still one of the least debunked phenomena there is despite Maslow being flawed in his hierarchy. After all, even today, one can make a case that certain people in power clearly have more influence due to being in universities or having more nurturing/opportunity providing parents. One can also find many examples of people rising through poverty only to maintain their riches rather than reach a state of provision that matches those who truly had more than them though they may be considered rich in their culture.

In some ways, this too is my dilemma with productivity systems. Most productivity tips are written from the perspective where one can be a lifehacker if not an outright possessor of notebooks/pens/PCs and rooms they can call their own. Worse, msot ideas arise not while one is in chaos but where one can simmer and experiment upon impending chaos.

Even in the military or sports, we see elements of one allowing their love to reach towards self-actualization only when one has a way of training in an actual "safe" and "loving" environment and where people most credit a person's esteem is when such static training meets the adversity that is an opponent that which the individual rises over - a scenario which when celebrated raises the esteem of the person and in the end actualizes the self of the person both to himself and to others as proof of said individual's legacy.

Indeed in all scenarios, there seems to be a scenario that matches self-actualization even when the hierarchy is wrong. Say a person who was raised in chaos and finding an opportunity in that chaos which thus then raises them towards the hierarchy of safety and belonging or marines training in sensory deprivation and being unappreciated in the world only to then be thanked for by whichever individual they were tasked to save. A case where belonging does not mean love and low esteem still means self actualization.

- the whole idea is stupid/funny.

I apologize. I had originally interpreted this as you saying you have just mentally masturbated on a topic. :P

"Moral marketers" - a novel concept. An oxymoron.

Indeed.

Eh? Who is this guy Maslow anyway? 

And who the heck is Nikki?

I don't know. I'd rather we find out who we all are.  :P
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on October 23, 2011, 05:14 AM
Debunking self-actualization is certainly an interesting thing especially from a Hindu (Buddhism?) perspective.
if you mean that you thought I was trying to debunk self-actualization from a Hindu perspective, I wasn't, as I am too metamotivated to do that (Yeah baby!).    ;)

Having said that, I do rather think that Hinduism has an uphill battle for it to become credible.
In a news item on 14 September 2007, the BBC made a report Report on Hindu god Ram withdrawn  (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6994415.stm).

The report was potentially amusing (tongue in cheek) in that it related to a canal-building project and:
"Hindu activists say the canal project will damage Lord Rama's bridge...Hindu hardliners say the project will destroy what they say is a bridge built by Ram and his army of monkeys."

Many people apparently actually believe this sort of stuff.
It rather looks as though it's on a fantastic par with Heaven's Gate.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on October 23, 2011, 05:18 AM
Well no but after reading your link, the misunderstanding was well worth it so I change my claim to yes. Yes, I thought you were debunking self actualization from a Hindu perspective.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on October 25, 2011, 12:34 AM
Just thought I'd note what seems to be an unintentionally highly amusing and classic example of action with no basis in proven theory: Effect of One-Legged Standing on Sleep (http://quantifiedself.com/2011/03/effect-of-one-legged-standing-on-sleep/#comment-3215)
It seems to me to be a fatuous post and discussion, and looks to be similar to the sort of thing you would be achieving (i.e., nothing) by trying to have a rational discussion where I said:
Thus the thesis of  Nikki Chau's post is definitely invalid to start with, so why waste time discussing an invalid proposition unless it is to explore the reasons why it is invalid? That's arguably likely to be the only useful thing (analysis of reasoning as to why the argument is invalid) that could be gained from discussing it. Otherwise we might be better off - and have more fun - debating (say) the existence of winged fairies (because everyone already knows that the wingless variety exists as pixies).

It reminds me of something from a few years back, when I was working on a contract in a country-regional office in the Asia-Pacific region of one of the biggest worldwide IT corporations. At the time, they were were in a big cost-reduction drive. As part of that drive, the CEO had put them on a crash downsizing schedule of 20% headcount reduction worldwide.

The personnel in the country offices I was in were to be moved to newer premises - more modern, and with a smaller square footage and hence lower lease costs - because they were not likely to be needing all that existing space for too long (the 20% reduction).

The trouble was in the timing: they had to vacate the old leased premises they were in before renewal date, and move to the new smaller/cheaper leased premises as soon as possible after taking up the new lease (to avoid paying overlapping annual leases for an extended period). They knew they wouldn't need all the personnel they currently had, in the new site, because they planned to downsize by 20% after moving to the new site (they couldn't complete the downsizing before the move.)

Problem: How were they going to accommodate all those people in the new site, before the planned downsizing and without causing employees to become fearful of losing their jobs? (Experience tells us that, when culling a herd, it is always best not to spook the animals as they can become uncooperative or resisting, and where the animals are humans and can get litigious, it would be downright foolhardy to spook 'em. The management and psychological practices employed in Hitler's notorious mass-extermination death camps have demonstrated some good management lessons in this regard.)

What to do?

They hit on the clever idea of compulsorily introducing stand-up desks and desk-sharing for a large number of personnel/roles, in the existing (old) offices. This was not announced as "being good" for the staff, just that they were "beneficial" and that the office was "being updated to the modern business trend" - and it was true that they were the modern business trend, because businesses had already recognised that stand-up desks helped reduce square-footage lease costs.

The management also cleverly engaged the cooperation of the staff by getting them to view the new site and put forward their views as to how their offices were to be laid out. "Staff representatives" for this were appointed, who gathered their colleagues' views on the matter. It was going to be such fun being involved!
The management used the language of bullshit/ambiguity rather than tell an outright lie and say that it was "ergonomically proven to improve such-and-such" - that would have been a lie because there was no proof.
Ergonomic and work-study research carried out in the '60s and '70s in factory and office environments showed that keeping people on their feet all day long is pretty much guaranteed to produce a range of otherwise avoidable health problems (never mind its effect on productivity), just as packing people/desks into offices as per the old "bull-pens" was unhealthy - and counterproductive. (Fortunately, cattle cannot read and have no sense of history.)

So the stand-up desks were slowly introduced to the old semi-open plan offices, and the offices progressively became a visibly more roomy without all those big ergonomically-designed desks and cubicles cluttering up the place.
And when the move was made to the new and smaller premises, though the packing density of the stand-up desk arrangement was noticeable, it was not nearly so noticeable as it would have been had they retained the old sitting desk arrangement. In any event, no-one seemed to complain, probably because not long after the move, the 20% downsizing plan started to bite and the staff had more important things on their minds than office layout.

The moral of this story is that wherever you find people using the irrational (QED) "the Emperor's new clothes" argument, then beware and hold onto your sense and your wallets.
The probability is that such people are either just plain stupid/ignorant, or - more likely - they are con-merchants wanting to manipulate your perception into accepting/believing whatever they are taking about is valid and a "good" thing to to do.
This may be done unscrupulously, neither knowing nor caring that you ordinarily might not be gullible enough to accept such nonsense, though real conmen are more unscrupulous and know very well that is the case. The motivation is likely to be financial gain on the part of the conman.

Anyway, that's my take on it, after my alien abduction experience.    ;)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on October 30, 2011, 10:48 AM
...as stuff like social media sharing buttons spread around the concept is what then boosted the motivation to develop such concepts as social curation and cross-sharing further than what designers and coders would have intended. (My emphasis.)
I thought this Dilbert cartoon (http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/30000/6000/700/136776/136776.strip.sunday.gif) made a good comment on this...speaks for itself really.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on November 05, 2011, 12:41 AM
I think the problem with the Dilbert cartoon is that it ignores why social curation is notable.

It's kind of like social media where I never quite picked up the hubbub of what drives major social sharers but I know what Digg and Reddit is and I know enough about the troubles and hoops people went through just to be part of the in crowd.

In some ways social curation is far superior and it's ambiguity is it's greatest strength seeing as instead of trying to fit a role (curator/social media journalist) it is instead a keyword to find words where the curator - the middle man - is cut off. This doesn't mean just writers or journalists but includes such things as people rambling out upvotes and downvotes. Social curation apps actually try to fix the filter failure following the fall-out of popularity from tweets and rss.

Take for example subjot. It doesn't advertise itself as a social curation tool but you can use it as a social curation tool far better than Twitter. In that respect, the route towards designing for a fad word like social curation inherently improves the dynamic of the web without asking the designers to understand it. Simply to address the need for it. The result is that subjot may not be the ideal curation tool but at least compared to services that leverage Twitter, subjot extends itself so far to it's own design that it doesn't need to be Twitter+. Instead it can be Twitter alt -minus less filter failure from the end user with less need for the end user to unfollow someone/everyone. Thus in this case, social curation apps are the opposite of the Dilbert comic though hype wise it doesn't appear to be.

As far as management goes, well... to me it just reads like apples and oranges. I apologize for simply not being able to follow. Managements suck. Bureaucracies suck. Hell con-men suck. They all have something on hand to offer already though. It just seems like the opposite in this case. Fad words are post-phenomenon mass-hipster marketing (not sure if these words make sense since I'm just making them up but the point is these are observers) where as corporate politics such as your example aims to create a pre-phenomenon justification as to why whatever it is that's being done is some sort of cutting edge absolute that should be done until one can get away with it for so long. In many ways it falters when you have such examples like Apple who have a history of hardware that went against the status quo and worked and though it is debatable what these items really contributed besides increasing consumer mindset towards previously luxurious items, the influencing factor did lead to further innovation of such products that might not have happened if the competition had not went beyond the call. (not just technologically or usability or nobility - those things don't move other companies but through a symbolic market demand that serve as a threat to other hardware/software providers/designers to pick up their slack.)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on November 05, 2011, 07:07 AM
I am confuzzled by most of what you wrote above - even after having read it through carefully, three times.
You seem to be discussing the merits of something that you confirm is still an undefined term - a buzzword - and which thus does not exist.
Sorry, I don't wish to seem rude, but, as someone whose teachers included grammarians and logicians, I think your comments probably only serve to confirm that "curation" is still in the Bullsh*t Bingo buzzword collection.

Anyway, I think it could likely be more fun (though no more useful) to debate the colour of the wings of those nonexistant fairies made so famous by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on November 05, 2011, 10:28 AM
I don't see what's confusing.

The topic was gamification/Maslow.

You then raised points why buzz words are bullshit.

I then raised points why buzz words have some influence.

We went into social curation which has a stronger and more concrete history of design because there are web apps released that claim that tag/had been branded that tag by the digital media and each of those websites are different but have a unifying pattern of what they are trying to introduce.

You use a Dilbert cartoon as your argument point.

I then use your Dilbert cartoon as your argument point.

Teachers/students/philosophers/forum users/logicians/grammarians, I sincerely hope none of those groups try to raise evidence by referring to a Dilbert cartoon much less use it as a set up to say the counter reply to a Dilbert cartoon only serves to confirm curation as still being a Bullshit Bingo buzz word.  :P

The difference with "social curation" (two words, not just the word curation) and the colour of the wings of those non-existant fairies is that even for myth believers, the colour of the fairies does not help expound any of their beliefs as even in those times the women who revealled the fairies were considered liars even in such an innocent age and it is only Doyle's status that lend it credibility and later on as desire to look for evidences backing the unknown went on, it became an urban legend that was brought up not because the biologies or even the appearances of such fairies would back up the rationale of the fairy believers but because it would back up this idea that there was truly something paranormal about this world that science can't explain but fantasy can. In short, even in concept, the fairies even if they were real would be useless. They would simply be like the myth that managers are not bullshitters that's why they get payed more.

In contrast, social curation is like the CEO. There's still a lot of bullshit in that position. The justification of high salaries. The instigator of bureaucracies. The manager of managers. The guy who saves the company by simply inspiring the workers and knowing how to out-wit the lesser politicians of the company. Yet at the same time, done right - social curation/CEOs do provide something intangible. They have nearly the same role as managers but because of their greater responsibilities, if they pull it off, they introduce something new. If they're shit, the company sinks. In this case, the same goes for buzz words. Digg's dead but Reddit still lives. Social curation is in a similar scenario. It lived. It died. It got a temporary ressurection in things like Mashable follow where the Web finally understood something as simple as the usability behind the follow button. It went low. It then pops up from time to time with newer social networks like G+ but under the wrong assumption that it needs to be "private data backed" in order to "recommend" circles/fans/friends/etc. (An old model that failed except for Facebook and even then Facebook did it right because of it's userbase not because of it's design) But whichever the case, regardless whether the word social curation even survives or not, there are tangible examples of apps in a social curated mold. There are tangible examples of designs following social curation showing it can have an impact.

Take the recent workflowy thread. I've become cynical of outliners because they don't adopt something as basic as Tree List's hotkeys or things like Onenote becomes popular but few (even among notetaker/outliner circles) mention/adopt some of the design of YeahWrite until OneNote but Workflowy wows people because it can filter branches thanks to it's search. That's a core element of social curation, bullshit or not. That's why even in the workflowy thread no one can find quite an alternative example because even though the design should be somewhat obvious (we do have software like Evernote banging the idea of personal search notes for years now) it wasn't until Workflowy appeared that we finally have a pseudo-free and simple implementation of that concept in a total package.

At the same time, the bullshit factor of buzz words here is that Workflowy doesn't state it is a social curation tool. The designers might not even be thinking of social curation when they design the app. Yet here's the flip side though. Is Workflowy better off because of it? I say no. A big part of social curation is the social. Actually social here doesn't mean sharing except that it can be shown to the public/friends that get permission. What in reality it is hinting at is that export and import can be cool.

...but in order to be cool, it has to be personalized to more casual needs and layed out in better ways. Bullshit buzz words or not - there's nothing confusing about that especially for technical people. Export/import and presentations was always an important and controversial issue in all walks of life but software developers have often tacked it on if not been slow to adopt to this. Web developers focus too much on mobile. Desktop developers focus too much on caged databases. Had Workflowy been more of a social curation tool maybe it would have focus on a desktop compliment already. Maybe.

If this is still confusing, here's the bottomline. Curator as a word especially in a digital world? Yeah, there's a lot of bullshit in that. The average blogger can be a curator simply by blogging. You won't know whether he's a good or bad curator at that. You might not even sniff it because blogging is based on popularity and niche circles much like social networks. Social curation though - you can see a bit of the person's identity through that as it's their personal collection. Not in an entirely privacy invading way but like a well researched blogger making a blog post. The difference between the potential of social curation design and blogging is that blogging asks for the reader to have an interest in skimming through archives with little way of organizing a story except maybe via chronological and tag based random clickings. Social curation could potentially adopt the concept of stumbling upon data that Stumbleupon originally popularized before that service was hijacked into a social media category and combine it with the innovations of annotations (PDFs/Diigo), personal website scraping (Scrapbook+/Surfulator) and combine it with the bundles of an e-book.

Example imagine if dotepub (http://dotepub.com/) was one day not based on an old version of readability but like website scrapers can edit and curate and mash up contents into an e-pub. It may not be a revolution unless e-book readers become cheap (for third world countries) and take off but the combination of those results could one day fuel the "true" death of mainstream newspapers and open up the culture for journalistic challenges where the best daily e-pub subscriptions are judged rather than the popularity of a newspapers' brand. On top of this, it may not be for everyone, but imagine the filter failure stress relief from no longer having to juggle between reading something later or reading something now but taking the perspective into that between a decision of those two plus the option of reading a collected set of articles like wikipedia but without the need to click through every next link or hope the other link is not a red herring. All these without having tabs stored in browsers or suffering in collection problems or being slaves to con-men who claim they scraped the free information around the web and then "curated" it into a paid PDF/video. Not to mention the lack of need to distribute this with an internet connection.

Again, I'd like to emphasize that the above is merely hinting at the potential of social curation and not saying this will be the reality.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on November 05, 2011, 09:46 PM
...as stuff like social media sharing buttons spread around the concept is what then boosted the motivation to develop such concepts as social curation and cross-sharing further than what designers and coders would have intended. (My emphasis.)
I thought this Dilbert cartoon (http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/100000/30000/6000/700/136776/136776.strip.sunday.gif) made a good comment on this...speaks for itself really.

I don't see what's confusing.
...
...Again, I'd like to emphasize that the above is merely hinting at the potential of social curation and not saying this will be the reality.

Well, perhaps I added the confusion then? Because I are still confuzzled.
Unless you are making a joke of this? It could be amusing for Tweedledum and Tweedledee, I suppose.

At any rate, I am sorry if you feel the need to be defensive about using the term, but all I intended was to point out - without sticking it in your face - that if you are unable to define a term (in this case the "curation" concept) before you proceed to use it in a rational argument, then it cannot be a rational argument from the point when you first use it - because there is no definition of terms.
This isn't my opinion, it's just one of the rules of logic that I learned in high school when we were being taught how to develop our critical thinking skills and methods of thinking.

The only definition I have so far managed to find for "curation" is this sense:
curation
late 14c., from O.Fr. curacion, from L. curationem, noun of action from curare "to cure" (see cure).
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

The way you talk about it, that meaning (above) doesn't look like it has anything to do with the price of fish. However, your language indicates that you seem to know what it is that you mean when you are talking about "... curation ....".
However, there seems to be nothing to put one's finger on and say, for example, "Ah! That's what he means when he talks about the terms 'curation' or 'social curation'! "

If we carried on discussing this without some idea of what you mean by the term "curation" in this context, then it will probably become an absurdity like the discussion in "Waiting for Godot".

So, please help me - this is making my brain hurt!:

Thanks in anticipation.    :)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on November 06, 2011, 07:56 AM
Oh I apologize if the way I came off was being defensive. I was simply providing tangible examples. I think it's safe to say that there are people whom I respect enough to not feel emotionally bothered with when replying.

However it is weird to equate critical thinking into the conversation of fad words though. Especially digital fad words.

If anything, it would be pseudo-skeptic to deny the existence of a term on face...nay Dilbert value.

The critical thinking way would be to do as what you have done with Maslow's idea and slice through the fluff from the truth. I can only surmise that it is not your fault but mine for being a poor communicator that you feel I have failed to bring this things to surface when I felt that was what I was already doing. In my previous post alone I (attempted to) answer this question: what exactly do you intend it to mean when you use it?

At the same time, the bullshit factor of buzz words here is that Workflowy doesn't state it is a social curation tool. The designers might not even be thinking of social curation when they design the app. Yet here's the flip side though. Is Workflowy better off because of it? I say no. A big part of social curation is the social. Actually social here doesn't mean sharing except that it can be shown to the public/friends that get permission. What in reality it is hinting at is that export and import can be cool.

...but in order to be cool, it has to be personalized to more casual needs and layed out in better ways. Bullshit buzz words or not - there's nothing confusing about that especially for technical people. Export/import and presentations was always an important and controversial issue in all walks of life but software developers have often tacked it on if not been slow to adopt to this. Web developers focus too much on mobile. Desktop developers focus too much on caged databases. Had Workflowy been more of a social curation tool maybe it would have focus on a desktop compliment already. Maybe.

If this is still confusing, here's the bottomline. Curator as a word especially in a digital world? Yeah, there's a lot of bullshit in that. The average blogger can be a curator simply by blogging. You won't know whether he's a good or bad curator at that. You might not even sniff it because blogging is based on popularity and niche circles much like social networks. Social curation though - you can see a bit of the person's identity through that as it's their personal collection. Not in an entirely privacy invading way but like a well researched blogger making a blog post. The difference between the potential of social curation design and blogging is that blogging asks for the reader to have an interest in skimming through archives with little way of organizing a story except maybe via chronological and tag based random clickings. Social curation could potentially adopt the concept of stumbling upon data that Stumbleupon originally popularized before that service was hijacked into a social media category and combine it with the innovations of annotations (PDFs/Diigo), personal website scraping (Scrapbook+/Surfulator) and combine it with the bundles of an e-book.

For word origins I often refer to this site: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=curate

late 14c., "spiritual guide," from M.L. curatus "one responsible for the care (of souls)," from L. curatus, pp. of curare "to take care of" (see cure). Church of England sense of "paid deputy priest of a parish" first recorded 1550s.

...and for dictionaries:

http://www.onelook.com/?w=curate&ls=a

noun

an Anglican priest who helps a more senior priest more...
verb

to be the curator of an exhibit in a museum more...

On top of this, if you search social media in the dictionary:

http://www.onelook.com/?w=social+media&ls=a

You'll have to go to such anyone can edit sites such as Urban Dictionary or Wikipedia just to get a "dictionary" entry.

Such is the commonality of many digital words. I don't see what's weird in that. Yet I'm sure despite the lack of this, you would know that what the dictionary defines as Twitter (http://www.onelook.com/?w=twitter&ls=a) is not the same as the social media service known as Twitter.

On top of this, you could simply google for a definition and links such as this would turn up in the 1st few pages:

http://www.quora.com/How-is-social-curation-different-from-collaborative-filtering

The main difference to me is that curation is more than filtering (whichever form you give it): curation is about giving context.

A filter will select content. A collaborative filter, content based on what others and you did.

A curator will not only do that but add context: comment, analysis, format, pictures, ... Why they felt it was relevant, why they agree or disagree with that content.

Look at how the same piece of news is titled differently by say CNN and Fox and Al Jazeera: it's the same news but the context can be way different because each time, a human being - not an algorithm - gave his own twist to it.
-Guillaume Decugis, I run Scoop.it

To cut through the fluff, social curation is beyond context. It is perspective. Context can be everywhere. People can have context from upvoting and downvoting and liking an entry. Yet that's social media.

Social curation as it is commonly understood and implemented by many services is a fad word to unify the way people collect and personify such collections to bypass the filter problem from collecting such items.

The theoretical aspect of it is to take the mindset away from the collector so that they could simply collect and put more fluid and natural wording metadata to their collections instead of the dead as molasses aspect of tagging. It is a mindset to take into account the manner that people not only collect in different ways but they consume their collection in different ways as well as take into account the what if of what happens if they present this data to another human being. In short, it is an experiment towards something that can change the way we bookmark, annotate, share, relate, blog etc.

Of course origin-wise, the problem remains that it is a buzz word. However as most buzz words go, there was a prelude to this and the prelude is that as new services come and go, such services are often wrongly categorized and while those categorization helps, they also fail to be buzz words but one needs buzz words to influence those web developers to create and design a service that applies to the buzz word.

An example is Twitter's follow button. While it is a crucial feature on par with the "mark as read" buttons of rss readers and the footnote feature in word processors, no one was copying it. No one even understood how or why it needs to be copied for usability. At least that's how it was if you read the digital media and ask most of the early bird users. There was a demand for it but no one simply find it cool/necessary or needed.

As it stands with most concepts, someone had to hype it. So someone did. My first introduction to a social curated compared service was Storify and while I do not know the origin of the buzz word, it cemented to me why social curation was both necessary and important. At least for me.

One reason being is that even before I encountered social curation, I was social curating and the concept so enamored a poor communicator like me that when I first encountered a service that somewhat hinted to social curation (though it didn't advertise it as one) I wrote in my profile:

"I use Diigo because it's a great service, certainly the one I most depend on. I wouldn't know how to read as much websites without it's features. The Diigolet button looks like the developers were considering Opera users. It was one of the few web services where support was present to the point that it will be hard not to be introduced to Maggie even though I didn't really look for the staff. It is still in my opinion one of the key features in building up a competent web service.

So all in all, you have community, developer support, innovation and the underdog quality feel of a well made "before it's time" web application. Man, the only thing that would convince me not to use it is if the developers looked like they forgot all the stuff that got them the users, the features and the general stability of the service.

I mean, I've heard some like Mashable think Diigo has failed so there's always that doomsday looming in my head that one day they'll just drop the service but man oh man, hopefully they don't.

I don't have the cash to donate to them but this is like THE new hope for a more productive web if not the few soldiers on the quest of going against the grain of web 2.0 being more about infotainment than "fun research" community that really really just works and isn't just for the experts and the rich or the mainstream users so finally I use it because even though I don't have the cash, I want to use it as a way of showcasing my support for such an app that deserves to be right there at the top and hopefully it can only improve from here on out."


*Note that this was way way before such controversies as this article (http://www.hacktext.com/2011/09/diigno-dont-use-diigo-or-the-problem-with-freemium-1307/).

Now has most social curation services reach Diigo's level? No, I don't think so. Which is why it's so difficult to simply define social curation like one would define social media when Digg first became popular.

Diigo was what I considered the first Web 3.0 service when it was first released. For me, the only other innovative service on par with the tag of Web 3.0 was Dropbox because both of those services have qualities that you just couldn't point to anywhere as a total package.

When Diigo first came out, it had the most external social bookmarking service importing feature (which it dwindled down by ver. 3) and it's premium features, were not premium features and it also captured embedded youtube videos. It was a perspective that at that time I've never seen offered in any other free service nor I've ever thought a bookmarking service couild do. After all (even though it didn't) it gave you the capability to eat up nearly the entire portion of the social bookmarking side of the internet...and then some.

That is what modern social curation tools are aiming for.

As a definition, it is as large as the semantic web which is why it's so hard to define in a short manner without sounding like buzz words and it being a buzz word, also doesn't help it's case.

But as an tangible design, it's a lot more specific and that's what gives it life.

Storify first inserted the idea of a search engine where you can collect data via drag and drop and present it as a personalized edited collection.

PearlTrees does to social bookmarking what Goalscape does to outliners which is give you results that you wanted but you weren't searching for. Most of it is just due to it's mindmapping-like interface but to call it simply mindmapping would be false.

Scoop.it aims to push the focus more on content than authors. It is blogging without the pressure or the destiny of a blog to be judged on it's author rather than it's content.

Subjot edits the follow button so that instead of following the users, you follow subjects which lessens the noise.

Uncram takes the Zemanta model of creating diaries by recommending explanations for entries you posted. It also experiments with a like button that also serves different emotions such as thanks or agreement.

Ifttt.com takes the problem with exporting data from different services and uniting them.

Workflowy creates a fluid filter search engine that redefined how outlines are filtered and managed.

Each of these designs redefine what used to be simple subscription models utilized by RSS readers.

Each of these are able to do this because instead of trying to value your personal data and identity (at least less so than say something like Facebook), social curation defines itself as services having the perspective that (me) is less important than my data and that as good as many "Web 2.0" services has been, at the end of the day... not everyone desires to see how many upvotes an entry has, not everyone wants items recommended to them, not everyone wants to read the latest linkbait blog article. There are people who simply want to be informed. Read up on things they want or need to read up on. Have simple ways to collect and reread what they collected. Have simple ways to extract what they read and show it to another person without going through hoops and have ways they can interact with such presentations/stored notes to make it easier or more enlightening to review them.

Unfortunately this potential also means that where social curation's definition starts to stray towards incredibly tangible, incredibly present, incredibly existent definitions...the potential of the service strays off towards theoretical concepts again. No different than what semantic web features entail once people talk about social media vs. MSM or social bookmarking vs. browser bookmarks that sync. Social curation's potential (and in turn it's definition) lies in that place where one day people who can't hack it/who can't use bookmarks have a service designed like a bookmark for others but one for them. That one day people who can't collect without getting disorganized, have a way to get themselves organized without needing or wanting to get organized. That people who can't cut through the mass exposure of rss or feed-like features such as push entries like Facebook or Twitter, have a way to still consume such services with less noise. It is as it says on the tin: a way for a personal user to have a personal library but unlike a library like say MediaMonkey or Calibre, a library that's more like a museum. A museum where one does not need to be a master metadata librarian in order to mass collect and mass consume their collections without becoming confused or even worse buried under our own inferiority to better human beings.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on November 26, 2011, 09:31 PM
@Paul Keith:
...That is what modern social curation tools are aiming for.

I have read and reread what you wrote above, and am unable to wrap my mind around what you are saying - at least, not to the extent that it makes sense to me as much as it apparently makes sense to  you. Sorry if I seem to be missing something obvious. And if you were making a joke, then I apologise for treating it seriously!

My take on it so far:
Here's a thing called "curation", and it means whatever I say it means, but it means kinda everything. This "everything" is the objective that the designers of "modern social curation tools" are aiming for. Yet those designers seem to be unable to define what curation is any more clearly than they can define what the objective of using them is.

From pragmatic experience, this looks to be potentially even less useful in practice than the idea of an enterprise architecture model has apparently shown itself to be for the enterprise.
It seems to me that curation does not yet exist except as a vague Tweedledum-Tweedledee-ish concept with a Will O'the Wisp definition.
(Is it God?)
Are you "self actualizing" (as Maslow might have put it) in your last post above?     ;)
Is this a "gamification" of "curation"? (Eheh. Sorry, a weak joke)

My brain hurts still.

On another but possibly related topic, I came across this today:
Out to Lunch: A Bad Start for Apple on Black Friday. (http://www.garynorth.com/public/8773.cfm)
I found this definition of "Routinization of charisma" (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Routinization_of_charisma):
Spoiler
The "routinization of charisma" is an expression dating from German sociologist Max Weber's classic sociology of religion. A prophetic leader attracts followers to his anti-traditional message by his personal magnetism or force of personality, in short, his "charisma." To keep a movement going after the death of the original founder, however, that charisma must be "routinized," or redirected to the continuing leadership and meaning of the organization. The path of routinization is fraught with danger since it by definition results in a formalization of the meanings of the original movement, involving institutionalization, and the formation of a new "tradition" and the potential for schism and new "charismatic leaders" to emerge. As institutionalized religions spread the teachings of their founders, there is a danger that more energy will go into preserving the outer form of the traditions than into maintaining their original inner spirit. A recent example of the difficulty of routinization can be seen in the troubles experienced by the Robert H. Schuller televangelism empire as it has attempted to "routinize" the original charisma of the elder Schuller and transfer its continuing authority to his son. See for example http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28953451/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28953451/)


I thought this was interesting in the context of the apparent "deification" of Steve Jobs, who was of course just a man like any other great prophet (e.g., including Jesus Christ and Mohammed).
Looks like Apple may have a FAIL on that (the routinization of Jobs charisma), anyway.

Where are those aspirins?
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on November 27, 2011, 09:39 PM
Here we go: http://www.scoop.it/ (http://www.scoop.it/)
Easily Publish
Gorgeous Magazines
Leverage Curation to increase your visibility.
Give persistence to your social media presence.

I think I'm beginning to get it now. "Curation" seems to be publishing eye-catching pictures as a substitute for knowledge/information for people who may have limited reading ability and/or a low reading age. So you can "leverage curation" in such a way as you can imagine that you are somehow "increasing your visibility ... and ... giving persistence to your social media presence".

Yeah, right.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on December 10, 2011, 12:22 PM
I think judging Scoop.it on it's own as a singular representative of social curation services would be just as unfair as say judging 4chan as a blog or judging Tumblr's main culture as what the blogosphere is all about.

On top of this, it ignores the fact that Scoop.it is not the most unique among the social curation services. A simple google search could show that in fact it's the opposite: it is the most generic. (though generic here is not necessarily bad)

From the very beginning Scoop.it never hid itself as Tumblr but focusing on topics. (Though the direction they took doesn't really show that as there's no way to be anonymous and focus completely on a topic but nonetheless everything about it is still more topic based than Tumblr.)

To top it off, it would be one thing to say, "Hey I registered to Scoop.it and it seems to be...[...]" but forgive me if I accuse you of not even doing this to prejudge a service. I'm not saying so with the intent of being defensive towards the service it's just that if I was being critical of curation or a service like Scoop.it, I would at least expect someone to point out the less efficient in-built Google Alert/RSS type slow as molasses recommendation engine or even the small text space but to go as far as curation seems to be publishing eye catching pictures I think it begs one to be skeptical about whether one truly even attempted to know about a service or simply copy pasted several texts.

Even without registering, it would baffle me that such a comment could be considered serious at face value when several Scoop.its essentially mimic the lay-outs of many blogs. At the very least I would hope that a critic even at face value would at least prejudge it like a blog...but publishing eye-catching pictures and then referring to limited reading ability and or low reading age??? It's a comment unbecoming of you.

Anyway, as far as usefulness in practice, that's up to debate but it seems enough people find use in the idea and I leave those people to silence or prove right the critics. Example (it was reading this that in fact reminded me of this topic):

Why Financial Literacy Fails

 “Actually,” I told the interviewer, “I don’t think this country needs more financial literacy education. Time and again, financial literacy efforts have failed. They don’t make any noticeable difference in the way we spend and save.”

I gave an example from my own life. “When I was in high school, all seniors were required to take a financial literacy class. It covered topics like compound interest, the Federal Reserve, how to write a check, and the dangers of credit cards. I took that class. I aced every test. And five years later, I had the beginnings of a debt habit.”

I wasn’t the only one. From what I can tell, the kids from my high school grew up to be no different than the rest of Americans. We learned the basics of financial literacy, but it had no perceivable impact on the way we saved and spent and earned. We still made stupid mistakes. We still spent more than we earned? Why? Because financial literacy isn’t the answer!

If you’ve been following Get Rich Slowly for any length of time, you can probably guess what I believe is a better solution. It’s not to feed people more facts and figures. It’s not to teach them how bonds work or to explain the sheer awesomeness of a Roth IRA. I believe what we really need in this country is some sort of behavioral education.

I’m just not sure how to do it.

Behavioral Finance

 Personal finance is simple. Fundamentally, you only need to one thing: To build wealth, you must spend less than you earn. The end. That’s it. We can all go home now. Everything else simply builds on this. Why, then, is it so hard for everyone to get ahead?

For some people, it’s systemic. There’s no doubt that some people are trapped in a cycle of poverty, and they truly need outside help to overcome the obstacles they face. But for most of us, the issue is internal: The problem is us. In other words, I am the reason that I can’t get ahead. And you are the reason that you can’t get ahead. It’s not a lack of financial literacy that holds us back, but a chain of bad behavior.

One of the key tenets of this site is that money is more about mind than it is about math. That is, our financial success isn’t determined by how smart we are with numbers, but how well we’re able to control our emotions — our wants and desires.

There’s actually a branch of economics called behavioral finance devoted exclusively to this phenomenon, exploring the interplay between economic theory and psychological reality. And in August, I wrote about a new wave of folks who are exploring the gamification of personal finance; they’re trying to turn money management into a game. More and more, experts are seeing that our economic decisions aren’t based on logic, but on emotion and desire.

“For years, I struggled with money,” I told my interviewer today. “I knew the math, but I still couldn’t seem to defeat debt. It wasn’t until I started applying psychology to the situation that I was able to make changes. For instance, I used the debt snowball to pay down my debt in an illogical yet psychologically satisfying way. It worked. And I’ve learned that by having financial goals — such as travel — I’m much more inclined to save than if I have no goals at all.”

Source: http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2011/12/07/why-financial-literacy-fails-and-what-to-do-about-it/
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: 40hz on December 10, 2011, 12:55 PM
Just wanted to drop by and say how glad I am you two found each other.  ;D

I doubt you'd find many other DC members with the focus, love of definition, and gluteal stamina to get into a topic like the two of you sometimes do.

I think the DC forum is a more interesting read because of it. Trot on! :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on December 11, 2011, 07:04 AM
@Paul Keith:
Curation:
Spoiler
I apologise if I seemed a bit harsh on "curation" and its derivatives, but it's difficult for me to see clearly after my eyes go all red on seeing so much BS/buzzwords and then glaze over with hate for the spin merchants or whoever exposes us to such seemingly anti-rational gobbledegook. And maybe as a a result I did only make a cursory review of the Scoop-it thing - but hey, I could probably be forgiven for that, because  my patience had already been sorely tested by that stage.

In any event, it seems to me that the emperor still has no clothes despite my having spent some considerable cognitive surplus on the subject and consuming a lot of aspirins in the process. Maybe it's just me or my eyesight that can't see/understand it, but it seems that you have not yet been able to provide sufficiently coherent definition or fact to be able to establish whether the term "curation" and its derivatives are anything more than undefined hyped-up BS buzzwords that an implied 97% of scientists bloggers believe to be true.(A logical fallacy - an appeal to the consensus.)
That latter bit is in reference to your:
...it seems enough people find use in the idea...
- which is an implicit appeal to the consensus.

Maybe the earth is still flat, and maybe Hitler was grossly misunderstood, and maybe eugenics/Communism/Fascism/[insert religio-political ideology or pseudoscience here] is the way ahead, and maybe there is anthropogenic global warming, and maybe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden, but I remain incredulous regarding these things until they are able to be substantiated as unequivocally true.
Oh, and Jim Slater or the Enron guys weren't really all such con-men as history makes out to be.
And don't get me started again on Maslow's apparently disproven theories or his concept of "self-actualisation"
Or the pseudoscience of phrenology.

And please don't ad hominem me for referring to people with limited reading ability and/or low reading age. That's just a plain wrong thing to do, and another logical fallacy. What I referred to was quite valid, and I can substantiate it.
My training in written marketing communications taught me to always aim for a reading age of preferably 11, but 14 at most for media communications (using the Flesch–Kincaid readability test). This is not cynical, it is based on pragmatic research:
(From Wikipedia Flesch–Kincaid readability test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flesch%E2%80%93Kincaid_readability_test#Flesch.E2.80.93Kincaid_Grade_Level))
The F-K formula was first used by the US Army for assessing the difficulty of technical manuals in 1978 and soon after became the Department of Defense military standard. The commonwealth of Pennsylvania was the first state in the US to require that automobile insurance policies be written at no higher than a ninth grade level of reading difficulty, as measure by the F-K formula. This is now a common requirement in many other states and for other legal documents such as insurance policies.

Flesch Reading Ease scores:
  • 90.0–100.0: easily understandable by an average 11-year-old student.
  • 60.0–70.0: easily understandable by 13- to 15-year-old students.
  • 0.0–30.0: best understood by university graduates.
(Mind you, I have come across not a few university graduates who seemed to have been particularly challenged in this regard.)

My training is to use the F-K Readibility Scoring method in most of my writing/documentation. For example, this post/comment of mine is approx 39%, so it's not likely to be fully understood by a number of readers and who may well even have lost interest and stopped reading before this point. I have already had one person in the DCF comment that I am "...the man who writes the longest and most convoluted posts in the entire forum". I think this was from the same person as used a logical fallacy without realising it and, when I mentioned it, seemed to think it was a matter of opinion as to whether it was a fallacy.(!)
It's always likely to be much easier to read some sharp and simple notes than it is to read someone's articulated thinking. Articulating your thinking (as opposed to an opinion) or reading someone's articulated thinking requires thinking and work. But that didn't stop me from at least trying to understand what it was that you were writing about in this thread, however difficult I found it. I figured you would not have made the effort to write what you did if you had been uninterested in communicating your articulated thinking on the subject. I really appreciate that you did that.


Gamification:
Spoiler
The quote re Why Financial Literacy Fails (from getrichslowly.org) made interesting reading.
The trouble I had was that it was a relatively facile article. There seemed to be too much fuzzy thinking and opinionating in the article (which is actually the sort of thing that made me stop reading that blog site a short while after starting to read it a couple of years ago). For example, when a statement is constructed with "I think/believe that such-and-such is the case", what is usually being described is an irrational opinion/belief - where "irrational" means not having any substantiation as to the truth of the statement.

Thus, just as my ears prick up when I hear someone using BS buzzwords, I become cautious when people say "I think..." or "I believe...", because what seems to invariably tend to follow is a stream of unsubstantiated opinion masquerading as "thinking" - which it often categorically isn't.
If I find myself using these same expressions, I watch myself carefully.

The article provides no definition for:
  • Financial Literacy
  • behavioral education
  • Behavioral Finance
  • Personal finance
- and yet these terms are used and bandied around in the article as though they actually mean something.

There's nothing wrong with the article that couldn't be fixed by a complete rewrite.
However, for me the article was like the parson's egg - "good in parts".
The good bit was where it said:
And in August, I wrote about a new wave of folks who are exploring the gamification of personal finance; they’re trying to turn money management into a game.

That could lead to a useful definition:
Gamification: The process of turning an aspect of, or a process in our lives into a game, in order to enable us to manage these aspects of our lives more effectively and efficiently.

Of course, there is no "new wave of folks who are exploring the gamification of personal finance". I have been involved in creating such games for students to play (on a mainframe computer) as learning games since the early '70s. Things have moved on a bit since then - e.g., I can practice placing buys and sells on the stock market through an online game system run by my New Zealand bank, which is similar to a game sponsored by the Wider Share Ownership Council in the UK in the mid-'70s.

Despite all this, it tends to be the case that the operation of accounting systems - and especially banking/insurance systems and processes - are a closed book to the majority of the population (who have not studied the theory of accounting and national payments transaction processing). I have a very cynical view that this state of affairs is maintained by the banks and insurance companies because they can only really maximise their profits by maintaining an impenetrable transparency of their operations. The last thing they want is a theoretically perfect Keynesian market where all consumers know what products and services are on offer at what prices, and from which financial institutions. That means that it is very difficult for the typical consumer to know/understand what the heck is going on with their money in the financial market.

Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on December 11, 2011, 03:42 PM
umm... just out of curiosity, why the buttons?

but it seems that you have not yet been able to provide sufficiently coherent definition or fact to be able to establish whether the term "curation" and its derivatives are anything more than undefined hyped-up BS buzzwords that an implied 97% of scientists bloggers believe to be true.(A logical fallacy - an appeal to the consensus.)

At some point, proof I think is left towards progress.

I think I've exhausted so many words and details, details that were ignored in favor of a simple sentence or a cursory overlapping glance, that it's kind of like trying to tell a person that the internet CAN exist even if it hasn't existed.

For me the proof is in the pudding though that, at least for this topic, you're not asking to be convinced while at the same time assuming I was trying to convince you rather than have a dialogue and hence adopting a stance where you act as if I was trying to simply convince you. It's really disappointing but I just can't ignore it when you start throwing things like The Emperor still has no clothes as if I was a messenger of the Emperor. As if I somehow want to convince everyone that everyone should just accept and buy into the hype of buzz words even though your reply says:

Curation: ...rather than buzzwords

The earlier dialogue was certainly enlightening and I have no regrets conversing with you but these last few posts just come off as if you're talking down to me. Old manner of replying that went into details become less and less so. Cursory judgements become more and more justified as valid replies. Points become less and less discussed in favor of points such as "you still have not convinced me" shaded in paragraphs. It would seem that your interest (not your patience) have ran it's due of course and you are simply replying for the sake of replying.

I have already had one person in the DCF comment that I am "...the man who writes the longest and most convoluted posts in the entire forum". I think this was from the same person as used a logical fallacy without realising it and, when I mentioned it, seemed to think it was a matter of opinion as to whether it was a fallacy.(!)

No, no. This title clearly belongs to me. You have one, I have several both in real life and in the internet. You often provide links. I often provide mere opinions and observations. Only providing links when I encounter them to supplement my opinion.

I apologize though if I don't see the relevance of this and your statement about Scoop.it. You already admitted that you gave a cursory review.

I only have one other thing to add: By gods man be more vicious! My posts rail on you for being a bit harsh not because you are a bit harsh but because it doesn't  seem like that of someone who is harsh at all on curation. Your last few posts reads that of someone who is a bit harsh on thin air, not on curation. That's the point. Be more harsh man! More links. Getting impatient? Throw all yer links and opinions at me. Don't hold back. I don't care what you or someone else thinks. I will read and respond to your posts to the best of my capabilities and if I can't, I will still read it. I don't guarantee it but so far I have read all your posts in this thread and I don't see why any evidence of why I won't stop doing so if it is worthwhile. Not this junk that adds an extra overhead of needing a click of a mouse to reveal and reveal only fluffy apologies. If you want to apologize, apologize for not being harsh at all, not for the opposite. I am not the other person you were talking to.

- which is an implicit appeal to the consensus.

If it were consensus, it wouldn't be lacking in evidence. In the context of what I wrote and in the context of the person I was writing to (whom keeps insisting that it doesn't exist), it's more appeal to potential utility. A description far away leading to a road opposite of consensus.

Maybe the earth is still flat, and maybe Hitler was grossly misunderstood, and maybe eugenics/Communism/Fascism/[insert religio-political ideology or pseudoscience here] is the way ahead, and maybe there is anthropogenic global warming, and maybe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden, but I remain incredulous regarding these things until they are able to be substantiated as unequivocally true.

Which is why I wrote:

Anyway, as far as usefulness in practice, that's up to debate but it seems enough people find use in the idea and I leave those people to silence or prove right the critics.

It's not so hard to understand a sentence if you don't try to snip it mid-way.

The article provides no definition for:
Financial Literacy
behavioral education
Behavioral Finance
Personal finance
- and yet these terms are used and bandied around in the article as though they actually mean something.

It's a consequence of any new/more modern branch. Psychology is more guilty of this than anything else.

Your comment comes off as a red herring though as I believe this entire topic was meant for interesting reading and the link written in the context of my words was to show that some people seem to find potential innovative use in the concept you insist as purely being a buzz word with no apparent validity for existing. Your comment is certainly valid, it just replies to a different issue. Proof is there when you cling towards belief, ignoring that the author was sharing an anecdote of an answer he presumably gave in an interview.

As you so said:

There's nothing wrong with the article that couldn't be fixed by a complete rewrite.

...but then why make it an issue of whether the author should rewrite it or not?

Your bolded text says:

Gamification: ...and not "Why the Author should rewrite the article"

Of course, there is no "new wave of folks who are exploring the gamification of personal finance". I have been involved in creating such games for students to play (on a mainframe computer) as learning games since the early '70s. Things have moved on a bit since then - e.g., I can practice placing buys and sells on the stock market through an online game system run by my New Zealand bank, which is similar to a game sponsored by the Wider Share Ownership Council in the UK in the mid-'70s.

Which is part of the problem with your definition. Though it is not grammatically wrong.

Your supplied definition applies to game development. Gamification is not about creating games for the sake of creating games. (Even educational ones at that.)

Despite all this, it tends to be the case that the operation of accounting systems - and especially banking/insurance systems and processes - are a closed book to the majority of the population (who have not studied the theory of accounting and national payments transaction processing). I have a very cynical view that this state of affairs is maintained by the banks and insurance companies because they can only really maximise their profits by maintaining an impenetrable transparency of their operations. The last thing they want is a theoretically perfect Keynesian market where all consumers know what products and services are on offer at what prices, and from which financial institutions. That means that it is very difficult for the typical consumer to know/understand what the heck is going on with their money in the financial market.

The above is the only notable element of your post. Yet it is a subject of banking, not gamification. You also did not elaborate upon it.

With the way you recently replied, I hold little hope that you can restore your old quality of replying (at least within the boundaries of this thread)

Thus I leave those topics you deem not worthy of addressing and I instead move on to topics you feel are worth your time.

Please criticize these links as if they were talking about gamification. They are old topics and you probably have addressed/viewed them elsewhere before and they barely hint to any gamification but at least there's more chance that you would pay them closer and better attention (which in turn would restore the quality of your replies) and we'd all go back to having something worthwhile to read (and reply to).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics

http://fora.tv/2010/06/07/Dan_Ariely_The_Upside_of_Irrationality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PzJopCWwQ4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbfIWn_Rt1k&feature=related
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on December 11, 2011, 11:45 PM
Just to lighten up the mood (plus it's a topic that I would have created a thread for anyway)

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/poop-rewards-cell-phone-minutes-for-sanitation/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+jkOnTheRun+%28GigaOM%3A+Mobile%29

There are far more cell phones in India than there is access to sanitary toilets — about 600 million out of 1.2 billion Indians have ready access to a clean bathroom, while 800 million Indians have cell phones. That rather shocking stat, was an a-ha moment for Swapnil Chaturvedi, an entrepreneur who has been working on sanitation projects in India’s slums and who was looking for an idea to help him reach many more millions of Indians with clean toilets.

Chaturvedi’s idea is the awesomely-named Poop Rewards, a startup that creates an incentive program using cell phone talk minutes and other prizes to convince Indians that don’t have easy access to toilets to use designated public toilets in their area. These cell phone users are extremely price sensitive, explained Chaturvedi to me in an interview after winning first prize at the business competition Startup Weekend Delhi, and he thinks this demographic will be willing to change their behavior (or use a public toilet) to save a little bit of money or earn free cell phone talk time.
How it works

With a phone company as a partner, more public toilets could be built in the necessary areas — the U.N. estimates it only costs $300 for a low-cost toilet — and cell phone companies can use the rewards program to retain low-price conscious customers and provide a public service, which can also help with loyalty.

The Indian cell phone market is becoming increasingly commoditized and Indian cell phone companies are struggling to find ways to end churn (customers hopping to the next cheaper cell phone carrier offering a deal). Chaturvedi says carriers like Airtel spend a significant amount of money just trying to keep its customers from leaving for a competitor. In the same way that the airline industry was saved by rewards programs that gave free miles to loyal users, cell phone companies can create rewards programs around sanitation that can also give back to the community, says Chaturvedi.

Down the road, Chaturvedi envisions the program could be an open source tool that local entrepreneurs in developing areas can use to create their own Poop Rewards programs with carriers. But Chaturvedi is still just figuring out his business model, he tells me.

Development of an idea

Like all good entrepreneurs, Chaturvedi has pivoted a bit on his original ideas. He had been working on a type of toilet that could convert human waste into electricity, and he’d received a grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to work on that. But after going over the math, he kept realizing he was only going to be able to reach a very small population relative to the problem because the project required funding and lacked incentives. His new idea, Poop Rewards, could potentially work with the waste-to-fuel toilet, but it is more focused overall on just boosting a sanitation network.

Chaturvedi hopes to start a pilot project with a test toilet and user group in the coming months (Airtel is really interested, he says). Make way for the Poop franchise. Though, yes, there are a bunch of hurdles ahead, like convincing a carrier for a deal, and launching a program that does actually produce a behavior change.

Along the way no doubt he’ll need some funding, and most of the startups at Startup Weekend Delhi were looking for funds. At the end of Chaturvedi’s pitch, angel investor Dave McClure (see disclosure below) told Chaturvedi that his pitch was the best of the day and that he is interested in potentially funding the project.

That said a rewards program isn't really new but the premise about it being more about gaming human behaviour fits enough with the theme of this thread I guess.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on December 17, 2011, 09:20 PM
Ok, I just recently thought of another angle to explain the notability of gamification which is by comparing it to game theory.

I don't really understand game theory since I'm neither knowledgeable about stats, math nor of game programming. I also find the explanations for game theory very obscure. Often dealing with information you know versus information you don't know.

In fact, I still don't know if it's a buzz word that people just picked up or it's a revolutionary concept in the sense that from an ignorant perspective, game theory comes off like statisticians simply looking for games to make their explanations seem more endearing both to their inherent desire to play games and to the general public. Nonetheless enough people talk about game theory that it's hard to dismiss it as just sugar coating especially on the side of analytics.

The idea that inspired this post was of a Baldur's Gate mod called Learning through use.

BG for those who don't know is a PC game that looks like Diablo but plays "kinda sorta" like a Dungeons and Dragon based tabletop game except it's not really tabletop roleplaying but an action rpg layered over the tabletop's rules.

This post assumes you see the logic in why Learn through use, by trying to step aside the rules of the official game, makes it a richer experience than the vanilla game.

Here's the Learn through Use description:

Proficiency points are gained for weapon types that are actually used, and they are gained at set boundaries, independent of the level up process - if you've used a weapon for so long you're going to get better, even if you've not killed a few thousand creatures or solved a few quests.

Now if you change the concept from proficiency points to say...education for everyone in real life...essentially what it means is that this mod allows the pursuit of an approach where people, regardless of race/property/prosperity of location born, can have an opportunity to learn items they wield. This can be anything from programming educational games to having high quality manuals as companions for new technologies or even simply bringing a more practical approach to the classroom.

...but let's say this mod doesn't exist. There's still a "learning environment". It's just different. It's just limited. Not necessarily in a bad way but it's limited. Limited and widely accepted.

How would you determine whether there's a problem that urgently needs tweaking?

...then how would you come to the conclusion that the solution...or at least the logic is to make everyone learn through using rather than learn through being via being rich or being given scholarship or being a student with high grades or being an athlete, etc. etc. etc. How?

After that, how will you convince people to switch to this?

Do a reverse analogy. How many people would really play Baldur's Gate and love the game without even installing or finding urgent value in this particular mod?

I'm not claiming game theory is the only way to come to the conclusion but by looking at it through the lens of a "game" - a concept with a clearer analogy of what a winner or loser is in a series of vacuum environments, you'd get to a point that pokes at the problem in a much clearer message because then you can impart a message of what's wrong with the logic of the current game rules. Will it change the world dramatically? Most likely not. Best case scenario is that it convinces a bunch of rule makers and people with modern king's rights like those who own corporations to use the empathy gained from the message's story to make themselves more profitable and in turn more powerful. In a DnD concept, game theory would be like hiring a lawyer to argue with the game master of why the game master's rules are a lose/lose situation and why they should change it. Sometimes it changes for the better. Most times it would change for the one with the lawyer. Other times it would get you kicked out after that particular game is over. Etc. etc. etc.

From a notability side, at least enough people are poking at the rules, because they perceive it as a game or a "tournament of life (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=1842601&page=1)".

At least though doesn't solve anything. Much as even the most unique educational games are often not really about the game programmers being hired to perfect the education aspect but to simply create a game within the circle of game programming and after it's been developed, the symbol of the game is mostly irrelevant and is left up to the packagers, marketers, distributors on how they would approach selling forth and bringing forth the conscious identity of a game, many real life concepts follow the same pattern. One can calculate and simulate the likelihood of a revolution but it doesn't mean the formula leads to anything but more attempts at revolution as people fail to take into account the impact of post-revolution progress and so on and so forth. People can, after these disasters, try to explain away why so and so did work and didn't work but from a software perspective, it's all patch fixing. We already know from software's history though that society doesn't really apply the best methods. Linux being more secure but less popular than Windows for example until Android but then Android convinces smarter users to root their Android making it less safe despite root being so serious an issue in the Linux world that people criticize one of the best distroes for newbies in Puppy for making the setting this way by default even though Puppy would still be more secure than Windows XP.

So how would you go about solving a game in which the programmers are decentralized? Some being on top. Some being activists. Some being common lay people. You have to make it moddable and moddable not only in design but by intent. Gamification has that potential. It makes designers not only think of people as pawns but as part of the whole chess board. In turn, it leads back to the more original and well intentioned pursuit of marketing. Rather than demographics, more people could view other people in stereotypical roles. Rather than stereotypical roles, more people could pursue making such roles more fruitful in order to utilize other people as opposed to doing the reverse and seeing profits by defining other people's roles for them. The cascading effect rolls on and on. Instead of seeing people for what they are, gamification aims to see people's actions for what they say they are. Instead of seeing people's actions for what they say they are, gamification aims to see people's actions for what they really are regardless of rationality.

Of course like any buzz words, there's a high prone of being misused or even underused as is the case of mass demand and little understanding of supply. That's actually a good thing though as instead of the corrupt rule designers and rule makers getting the potential too quickly before the well intentioned people do, these more evil intentioned people are busy hacking at it through making trinkets such as Zynga copycat games and other such items such as videogames in turn making gamification more notable as a concept and less notable as a buzz word which in turn advertises the potential of gamification to more well intentioned people. The result no more being different than a popular game having more modders than a less popular game. Are all those mods great and bug free? Hell no but now we're back to a new Dark Age that aims towards a Renaissance or Enlightenment type of society rather than a world of consumers and conquerors.

That's only IF gamification or a concept like gamification totally takes off though. It is my opinion that both the vagueness and notability of gamification is linked towards the vagueness and notability of modern videogame design. We're no longer in an age of Pac-man where fun = great videogame. People inside the industry are probably if not definitely aware of this as far as game development but as an analogy towards a grander analogy which is how certain media defines how people pursue progress, I believe few people notice the change of mindset videogames have brought forth upon the roles of people. The flaws of Marxism for example that were once there slightly evaporates when one thinks of how one game can be interacted differently each time despite it being one singular mass produced containment item. The definition of the Invisible Hand which were once passive gains a new active definition when one considers the difference between how games and gamers self-regulate versus how society in general self-regulate. The exclusivity of item within a certain OS slightly evaporates much as the cloud has helped urged people to be more cross-platform conscious despite long term stability and security being dissolved. If you can see the similarities between how the different types of Operating System are akin to symbols of different countries where the solutions of one country have often failed to reach another country because of Operating System culture, then you can see how the flood gates can be redefined under gamification. What was once just Risk as perceived by the masses could become <insert any modern strategy game>. Instead of countries dissolving the Gold Standard because America did or instead of people adopting poorer copies of public education because America had them or instead of people having colony mindset, they had copycat game mindset due to gamification...alot of the current structures and theories of our planet will change just from the adoption of gamification. That's something even the best of the rest of the buzz words do not have as much potential to do so even if they defy all odds. The idea of games gives new definition to physics. The idea of games gives new definition to philosophy. The idea of games gives new definition to progress. The idea though never took off despite the analogy of life as a game being so old because people simply used and pursued it as a way to hack life. Gamification is like this long term post-conscious mindset after a game has been hacked for so long that after society became so immersed in all the evidence of people cheating the system and all the people becoming apathetic within it, one ends up seeing people develop this panorama where people are slaves to the most mundane of items and how these addictive adopted society is so wrong that one repursues new definition to progress and as people one by one create their new definition in this manner, one ends up developing a singular new mindset where the planet is just a classic console with quality gems hidden in it rather than this competitive modern console that has to have every new way of deploring progress that are just Emperor's New Clothes in disguise and in turn, this long term effect which in the short term brought little notability if not more addiction to vanity ends up creating a noble simple concept like the Learn through Use mod where in a low ranking rule changer can simply develop one unique rule that makes sense via simply going back to his/her biological roots of being a human living in a human society.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on January 30, 2012, 09:37 PM
@Paul Keith: This is written in the hope that it may be of use in improving the clarity of this discussion.
I apologise for not replying before now, but, taking a pedantic approach, I was rather nonplussed by the above posts of yours as they seemed to be trying to make logical points/arguments all over the place, but without having a clearly perceivable (by me) logical structure or apparent solid basis for substantiation. I wondered if the posts showed evidence that either:
(a) you may be having a joke with me by using a nifty little text-generating program;
or
(b) you may have succumbed to intellectual laziness.

I could be wrong in this, of course, but I shall assume (b) to be more probable. I don't mean to be rude, as I recognise it (intellectual laziness) as something that I suffer from - from time to time. (I think we all do, on occasion.)

A lot of intellectual laziness can be equated to basic (first-principles) uncritical thinking, and can be attributed to the insufficient use of language and semantics to unambiguously convey clarity of meaning, thought and logical argument.

I was reminded of this when I reread this interesting item in my Scrapbook library. It's a post from the Harvard Business Review of 2008 (tagged under Communism, Thinking, Philosophy, Bullshit, Buzzword):
Why Jargon Feeds on Lazy Minds (http://discussionleader.hbsp.com/berkun/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html)
Spoiler
http://discussionleader.hbsp.com/berkun/2008/08/why-jargon-feeds-on-lazy-minds.html

Why Jargon Feeds on Lazy Minds
Posted by Scott Berkun on August 7, 2008 11:40 AM

If I could give every single business writer, guru or executive one thing to read every morning before work, it'd be this essay by George Orwell: Politics and the English Language.

Not only is this essay short, brilliant, thought-provoking and memorable, it calls bullshit on most of what passes today as speech and written language in management circles. And if you are too lazy to read the article, all you need to remember is this: never use a fancy word when a simple one will do. If your idea is good, no hype is necessary. Explain it clearly and people will get it, if there truly is something notable to get. If your idea is bad: keep working before you share it with others. And if you don't have time for that, you might as well be honest. Because when you throw jargon around, most of us know you're probably lying about something anyway.

In honor of George, whose birthday was last month, here is a handy list of words I hear often in management circles that should be banned. Flat out, these words are never used for good reason.

Words that should be banned:

    Breakthrough
    Transformative
    Next-generation
    Seamless
    Game-changing
    Ideation (oh how I hate this word)
    Disruptive
    Incentivize
    Innovation Infrastructure
    Customer-centric
    Radical

These are the lazy words of 2008, and whenever i see them used I feel justified in challenging the claims. To use these words with a straight face is to assume the listener is an idiot. They are intellectual insults. They are shortcuts away from good marketing and strong thinking since they try to sneak by with claims they know they cannot prove or do not make any sense.

Marketers and managers use jargon because it's safe. No one stops them to ask: exactly what is it you are breaking through? What precisely are you transforming, and how are you certain the new thing will be better than the old (e.g. New Coke)? If no one, especially no one in power, challenges its use, jargon spreads, choking the life out of conversations and meetings forever.

Pay attention to who uses the most jargon: it's never the brightest. It's those who want to be perceived as the best and the brightest, something they know they are not. They use cheap language tricks to intimidate, distract, and confuse, hoping to sneak past those afraid to ask what they really mean.

I'm going to do my best for the rest of the year to question people who use these lazy, deceptive, and inflated terms. Maybe then they'll use their real marketing talents and tell me a story so powerful that I believe, all on my own, will transform this, or revolutionize that.

What jargon do you hear these days that you'd like to add to the list above? Let me know.
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It refers to George Orwell's essay:
Politics And The English Language (http://www.ourcivilisation.com/decline/orwell1.htm)
Spoiler
Politics And The English Language
by George Orwell
Published in Horizon, April 1946; Modern British Writing ed. Denys Val Baker, 1947.

Most people who bother with the matter at all would admit that the English language is in a bad way, but it is generally assumed that we cannot by conscious action do anything about it. Our civilization is decadent, and our language  so the arguments runs  must inevitably share in the general collapse. It follows that any struggle against the abuse of language is a sentimental archaism, like preferring candles to electric light or hansom cabs to aeroplanes. Underneath this lies the half-conscious belief that language is a natural growth and not an instrument which we shape for our own purposes.

Now, it is clear that the decline of a language must ultimately have political and economic causes: it is not due simply to the bad influences of this or that individual writer. But an effect can become a cause, reinforcing the original cause and producing the same effect in an intensified form, and so on indefinitely. A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step towards political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers. I will come back to this presently, and I hope that by that time the meaning of what I have said here will have become clearer. Meanwhile, here are five specimens of the English language as it is now habitually written.

These five passages have not been picked out because they are especially bad  I could have quoted far worse if I had chosen but because they illustrate various of the mental vices from which we now suffer. They are a little below the average, but are fairly representative samples. I number them so I can refer back to them when necessary:

1. I am not, indeed, sure whether it is not true to say that the Milton who once seemed not unlike a seventeenth-century Shelley had not become, out of an experience ever more bitter in each year, more alien (sic) to the founder of that Jesuit sect which nothing could induce him to tolerate.Professor Harold Laski (Essay in Freedom of Expression).

2. Above all, we cannot play ducks and drakes with a native battery of idioms which prescribes such egregious collocations of vocables as the Basic put up with for tolerate or put at a loss for bewilder.Professor Lancelot Hogben (Interglossa).

3. On the one side we have the free personality: by definition it is not neurotic, for it has neither conflict nor dream. Its desires, such as they are, are transparent, for they are just what institutional approval keeps in the forefront of consciousness; another institutional pattern would alter their number and intensity; there is little in them that is natural, irreducible, or culturally dangerous. But on the other side, the social bond itself is nothing but the mutual reflection of these self-secure integrities. Recall the definition of love. Is not this the very picture of a small academic? Where is there a place in this hall of mirrors for either personality or fraternity? Essay on psychology in Politics (New York).

4. All the 'best people' from the gentlemen's clubs, and all the frantic Fascist captains, united in common hatred of Socialism and bestial horror of the rising tide of the mass revolutionary movement, have turned to acts of provocation, to foul incendiarism, to medieval legends of poisoned wells, to legalize their own destruction to proletarian organizations, and rouse the agitated petty-bourgeoisie to chauvinistic fervour on behalf of the fight against the revolutionary way out of the crisis. Communist pamphlet.

5 . If a new spirit is to be infused into this old country, there is one thorny and contentious reform which must be tackled, and that is the humanization and galvanization of the B.B.C. Timidity here will bespeak canker and atrophy of the soul. The heart of Britain may be sound and of strong beat, for instance, but the British lion's roar at present is like that of Bottom in Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream  as gentle as any sucking dove. A virile new Britain cannot continue indefinitely to be traduced in the eyes, or rather ears, of the world by the effete languors of Langham Place, brazenly masquerading as 'standard English'. When the Voice of Britain is heard at nine o'clock, better far and infinitely less ludicrous to hear aitches honestly dropped than the present priggish, inflated, inhibited, school ma'amish arch braying of blameless, bashful mewing maidens! Letter in Tribune.

Each of these passages has faults of its own, but, quite apart from avoidable ugliness, two qualities are common to all of them. The first is staleness of imagery: the other is lack of precision. The writer either has a meaning and cannot express it, or he inadvertently says something else, or he is almost indifferent as to whether his words mean anything or not. This mixture of vagueness and sheer incompetence is the most marked characteristic of modern English prose, and especially of any kind of political writing. As soon as certain topics are raised, the concrete melts into the abstract and no one seems able to think of turns of speech that are not hackneyed: prose consists less and less of words chosen for the sake of their meaning, and more of phrases tacked together like the sections of a prefabricated hen-house. I list below, with notes and examples, various of the tricks by means of which the work of prose construction is habitually dodged:

Dying metaphors. A newly invented metaphor assists thought by evoking a visual image, while on the other hand a metaphor which is technically 'dead' (e.g. iron resolution) has in effect reverted to being an ordinary word and can generally be used without loss of vividness. But in between these two classes there is a huge dump of worn-out metaphors which have lost all evocative power and are merely used because they save people the trouble of inventing phrases for themselves. Examples are: Ring the changes on, take up the cudgels for, toe the line, ride roughshod over, stand shoulder to shoulder with, play into the hands of, no axe to grind, grist to the mill, fishing in troubled waters, rift within the lute, on the order of the day, Achilles' heel, swan song, hotbed. Many of these are used without knowledge of their meaning (what is a 'rift', for instance?), and incompatible metaphors are frequently mixed, a sure sign that the writer is not interested in what he is saying. Some metaphors now current have been twisted out of their original meaning without those who use them even being aware of the fact. For example, toe the line is sometimes written tow the line. Another example is the hammer and the anvil, now always used with the implication that the anvil gets the worst of it. In real life it is always the anvil that breaks the hammer, never the other way about: a writer who stopped to think what he was saying would be aware of this, and would avoid perverting the original phrase.

Operators, or verbal false limbs. These save the trouble of picking out appropriate verbs and nouns, and at the same time pad each sentence with extra syllables which give it an appearance of symmetry. Characteristic phrases are: render inoperative, militate against, prove unacceptable, make contact with, be subject to, give rise to, give grounds for, have the effect of, play a leading part (role) in, make itself felt, take effect, exhibit a tendency to, serve the purpose of, etc.etc. The keynote is the elimination of simple verbs. Instead of being a single word, such as break, stop, spoil, mend, kill, a verb becomes a phrase, made up of a noun or adjective tacked on to some general-purposes verb such as prove, serve, form, play, render. In addition, the passive voice is wherever possible used in preference to the active, and noun constructions are used instead of gerunds (by examination of instead of by examining) . The range of verbs is further cut down by means of the -ize and de- formations, and banal statements are given an appearance of profundity by means of the not un- formation. Simple conjunctions and prepositions are replaced by such phrases as with respect to, having regard to, the fact that, by dint of, in view of, in the interests of, on the hypothesis that; and the ends of sentences are saved from anticlimax by such resounding commonplaces as greatly to be desired, cannot be left out of account, a development to be expected in the near future, deserving of serious consideration, brought to a satisfactory conclusion, and so on and so forth.

Pretentious diction.. Words like phenomenon, element, individual (as noun), objective, categorical, effective, virtual, basic, primary, promote, constitute, exhibit, exploit, utilise, eliminate, liquidate, are used to dress up simple statements and give an air of scientific impartiality to biased judgements Adjectives like epoch-making, epic, historic, unforgettable, triumphant, age-old, inevitable, inexorable, veritable, are used to dignify the sordid processes of international politics, while writing that aims at glorifying war usually takes on an archaic colour, its characteristic words being: realm, throne, chariot, mailed fist, trident, sword, shield, buckler, banner, jackboot, clarion. Foreign words and expressions such as cul de sac, ancien r?gime, deus ex machina, mutatis mutandis, status quo, Gleichschaltung, Weltanschauung, are used to give an air of culture and elegance. Except for the useful abbreviations i.e., e.g., and etc., there is no real need for any of the hundreds of foreign phrases now current in English. Bad writers, and especially scientific, political and sociological writers, are nearly always haunted by the notion that Latin or Greek words are grander than Saxon ones, and unnecessary words like expedite, ameliorate, predict, extraneous, deracinated, clandestine, sub-aqueous and hundreds of others constantly gain ground from their Anglo-Saxon opposite numbers. The jargon peculiar to Marxist writing (hyena, hangman, cannibal, petty bourgeois, these gentry, lackey, flunkey, mad dog, White Guard, etc) consists largely of words and phrases translated from Russian, German or French; but the normal way of coining a new word is to use a Latin or Greek root with the appropriate affix and, where necessary, the -ize formation. It is often easier to make up words of this kind (deregionalize, impermissible, extramarital, non-fragmentatory and so forth) than to think up the English words that will cover one's meaning. The result, in general, is an increase in slovenliness and vagueness.

Meaningless words.. In certain kinds of writing, particularly in art criticism and literary criticism, it is normal to come across long passages which are almost completely lacking in meaning. Words like romantic, plastic, values, human, dead, sentimental, natural, vitality, as used in art criticism, are strictly meaningless, in the sense that they not only do not point to any discoverable object, but are hardly even expected to do so by the reader. When one critic writes, 'The outstanding features of Mr X's work is its living quality', while another writes, 'The immediately striking thing about Mr X's work is its peculiar deadness', the reader accepts this as a simple difference of opinion. If words like black and white were involved, instead of the jargon words dead and living, he would see at once that language was being used in an improper way. Many political words are similarly abused. The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable'. The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like Marshal Petain was a true patriot, The Soviet press is the freest in the world, The Catholic Church is opposed to persecution, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality.

Now that I have made this catalogue of swindles and perversions, let me give another example of the kind of writing that they lead to. This time it must of its nature be an imaginary one. I am going to translate a passage of good English into modern English of the worst sort. Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes:

    I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Here it is in modern English:

    Objective consideration of contemporary phenomena compels the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.

This is a parody, but not a very gross one. Exhibit 3, above, for instance, contains several patches of the same kind of English. It will be seen that I have not made a full translation. The beginning and ending of the sentence follow the original meaning fairly closely, but in the middle the concrete illustrations  race, battle, bread  dissolve into the vague phrase 'success or failure in competitive activities'. This had to be so, because no modern writer of the kind I am discussing  no one capable of using phrases like 'objective consideration of contemporary phenomena'  would ever tabulate his thoughts in that precise and detailed way. The whole tendency of modern prose is away from concreteness. Now analyse these two sentences a little more closely. The first contains 49 words but only 60 syllables, and all its words are those of everyday life. The second contains 38 words of 90 syllables: 18 of its words are from Latin roots, and one from Greek. The first sentence contains six vivid images, and only one phrase ('time and chance') that could be called vague. The second contains not a single fresh, arresting phrase, and in spite of its 90 syllables it gives only a shortened version of the meaning contained in the first. Yet without a doubt it is the second kind of sentence that is gaining ground in modern English I do not want to exaggerate. This kind of writing is not yet universal, and outcrops of simplicity will occur here and there in the worst-written page. Still if you or I were told to write a few lines on the uncertainty of human fortunes, we should probably come much nearer to my imaginary sentence than to the one from Ecclesiastes.

As I have tried to show, modern writing at its worst does not consist in picking out words for the sake of their meaning and inventing images in order to make the meaning clearer. It consists in gumming together long strips of words which have already been set in order by someone else, and making the results presentable by sheer humbug. The attraction of this way of writing is that it is easy. It is easier  even quicker, once you have the habit  to say In my opinion it is a not unjustifiable assumption that than to say I think. If you use ready-made phrases, you not only don't have to hunt about for words; you also don't have to bother with the rhythms of your sentences, since these phrases are generally so arranged as to be more or less euphonious. When you are composing in a hurry  when you are dictating to a stenographer, for instance, or making a public speech  it is natural to fall into a pretentious, latinized style. Tags like a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind or a conclusion to which all of us would readily assent will save many a sentence from coming down with a bump. By using stale metaphors, similes and idioms, you save much mental effort, at the cost of leaving your meaning vague, not only for your reader but for yourself. This is the significance of mixed metaphors. The sole aim of a metaphor is to call up a visual image. When these images clash  as in The Fascist octopus has sung its swan song, the jackboot is thrown into the melting-pot  it can be taken as certain that the writer is not seeing a mental image of the objects he is naming; in other words he is not really thinking. Look again at the examples I gave at the beginning of this essay. Professor Laski uses five negatives in 53 words. One of these is superfluous, making nonsense of the whole passage, and in addition there is the slip alien for akin, making further nonsense, and several avoidable pieces of clumsiness which increase the general vagueness. Professor Hogben plays ducks and drakes with a battery which is able to write prescriptions, and, while disapproving of the everyday phrase put up with, is unwilling to look egregious up in the dictionary and see what it means, (3) if one takes an uncharitable attitude towards it, is simply meaningless: probably one could work out its intended meaning by reading the whole of the article in which it occurs. In (4) the writer knows more or less what he wants to say, but an accumulation of stale phrases chokes him like tea-leaves blocking a sink. In (5) words and meaning have almost parted company. People who write in this manner usually have a general emotional meaning  they dislike one thing and want to express solidarity with another but they are not interested in the detail of what they are saying. A scrupulous writer, in every sentence that he writes, will ask himself at least four questions, thus: What am I trying to say? What words will express it? What image or idiom will make it clearer? Is this image fresh enough to have an effect? And he will probably ask himself two more: Could I put it more shortly? Have I said anything that is avoidably ugly? But you are not obliged to go to all this trouble. You can shirk it by simply throwing your mind open and letting the ready-made phrases come crowding in. They will construct your sentences for you  even think your thoughts for you, to a certain extent  and at need they will perform the important service of partially concealing your meaning even from yourself. It is at this point that the special connexion between politics and the debasement of language becomes clear.

In our time it is broadly true that political writing is bad writing. Where it is not true, it will generally be found that the writer is some kind of rebel, expressing his private opinions, and not a 'party line'. Orthodoxy, of whatever colour, seems to demand a lifeless, imitative style. The political dialects to be found in pamphlets, leading articles, manifestos, White Papers and the speeches of Under-Secretaries do, of course, vary from party to party, but they are all alike in that one almost never finds in them a fresh, vivid, home-made turn of speech. When one watches some tired hack on the platform mechanically repeating the familiar phrases  bestial atrocities, iron heel, blood-stained tyranny, free peoples of the world, stand shoulder to shoulder  one often has a curious feeling that one is not watching a live human being but some kind of dummy: a feeling which suddenly becomes stronger at moments when the light catches the speaker's spectacles and turns them into blank discs which seem to have no eyes behind them. And this is not altogether fanciful. A speaker who uses that kind of phraseology has gone some distance towards turning himself into a machine. The appropriate noises are coming out of his larynx, but his brain is not involved as it would be if he were choosing his words for himself. If the speech he is making is one that he is accustomed to make over and over again, he may be almost unconscious of what he is saying, as one is when one utters the responses in church. And this reduced state of consciousness, if not indispensable, is at any rate favourable to political conformity.

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenceless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them. Consider for instance some comfortable English professor defending Russian totalitarianism. He cannot say outright, 'I believe in killing off your opponents when you can get good results by doing so'. Probably, therefore, he will say something like this:

    While freely conceding that the Soviet regime exhibits certain features which the humanitarian may be inclined to deplore, we must, I think, agree that a certain curtailment of the right to political opposition is an unavoidable concomitant of transitional periods, and that the rigours which the Russian people have been called upon to undergo have been amply justified in the sphere of concrete achievement.

The inflated style is itself a kind of euphemism. A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outlines and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink. In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics'. All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer. I should expect to find  this is a guess which I have not sufficient knowledge to verify  that the German, Russian and Italian languages have all deteriorated in the last ten or fifteen years, as a result of dictatorship.

But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought. A bad usage can spread by tradition and imitation, even among people who should and do know better. The debased language that I have been discussing is in some ways very convenient. Phrases like a not unjustifiable assumption, leaves much to be desired, would serve no good purpose, a consideration which we should do well to bear in mind, are a continuous temptation, a packet of aspirins always at one's elbow. Look back through this essay, and for certain you will find that I have again and again committed the very faults I am protesting against. By this morning's post I have received a pamphlet dealing with conditions in Germany. The author tells me that he 'felt impelled' to write it. I open it at random, and here is almost the first sentence that I see:

    '(The Allies) have an opportunity not only of achieving a radical transformation of Germany's social and political structure in such a way as to avoid a nationalistic reaction in Germany itself, but at the same time of laying the foundations of a co-operative and unified Europe.'

You see, he 'feels impelled' to write feels, presumably, that he has something new to say  and yet his words, like cavalry horses answering the bugle, group themselves automatically into the familiar dreary pattern. This invasion of one's mind by ready-made phrases (lay the foundations, achieve a radical transformation) can only be prevented if one is constantly on guard against them, and every such phrase anaesthetizes a portion of one's brain.

I said earlier that the decadence of our language is probably curable. Those who deny this would argue, if they produced an argument at all, that language merely reflects existing social conditions, ant that we cannot influence its development by any direct tinkering with words and constructions So far as the general tone or spirit of a language goes, this may be true, but it is not true in detail. Silly words and expressions have often disappeared, not through any evolutionary process but owing to the conscious action of a minority. Two recent examples were explore every avenue and leave no stone unturned, which were killed by the jeers of a few journalists. There is a long list of fly-blown metaphors which could similarly be got rid of if enough people would interest themselves in the job; and it should also be possible to laugh the not un- formation out of existence, to reduce the amount of Latin and Greek in the average sentence, to drive out foreign phrases and strayed scientific words, and, in general, to make pretentiousness unfashionable. But all these are minor points. The defence of the English language implies more than this, and perhaps it is best to start by saying what it does not imply.

To begin with, it has nothing to do with archaism, with the salvaging of obsolete words and turns of speech, or with the setting-up of a 'standard English' which must never be departed from. On the contrary, it is especially concerned with the scrapping of every word or idiom which has outworn its usefulness. It has nothing to do with correct grammar and syntax, which are of no importance so long as one makes one's meaning clear or with the avoidance of Americanisms, or with having what is called a 'good prose style'. On the other hand it is not concerned with fake simplicity and the attempt to make written English colloquial. Nor does it even imply in every case preferring the Saxon word to the Latin one, though it does imply using the fewest and shortest words that will cover one's meaning. What is above all needed is to let the meaning choose the word, and not the other way about. In prose, the worst thing you can do with words is to surrender them. When you think of a concrete object, you think wordlessly, and then, if you want to describe the thing you have been visualizing, you probably hunt about till you find the exact words that seem to fit it. When you think of something abstract you are more inclined to use words from the start, and unless you make a conscious effort to prevent it, the existing dialect will come rushing in and do the job for you, at the expense of blurring or even changing your meaning. Probably it is better to put off using words as long as possible and get one's meanings as clear as one can through pictures or sensations. Afterwards one can choose  not simply accept  the phrases that will best cover the meaning, and then switch round and decide what impression one's words are likely to make on another person. This last effort of the mind cuts out all stale or mixed images, all prefabricated phrases, needless repetitions, and humbug and vagueness generally. But one can often be in doubt about the effect of a word or a phrase, and one needs rules that one can rely on when instinct fails. I think the following rules will cover most cases:

i. Never use a metaphor, simile or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

ii. Never use a long word where a short one will do.

iii. If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.

iv. Never use the passive where you can use the active.

v. Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.

vi. Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.

These rules sound elementary, and so they are, but they demand a deep change of attitude in anyone who has grown used to writing in the style now fashionable. One could keep all of them and still write bad English, but one could not write the kind of stuff that I quoted in those five specimens at the beginning of this article.

I have not here been considering the literary use of language, but merely language as an instrument for expressing and not for concealing or preventing thought. Stuart Chase and others have come near to claiming that all abstract words are meaningless, and have used this as a pretext for advocating a kind of political quietism. Since you don't know what Fascism is, how can you struggle against Fascism? One need not swallow such absurdities as this, but one ought to recognize that the present political chaos is connected with the decay of language, and that one can probably bring about some improvement by starting at the verbal end. .If you simplify your English, you are freed from the worst follies of orthodoxy. You cannot speak any of the necessary dialects, and when you make a stupid remark its stupidity will be obvious, even to yourself. Political language and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists  is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. One cannot change this all in a moment, but one can at least change one's own habits, and from time to time one can even, if one jeers loudly enough, send some worn-out and useless phrase  some jackboot, Achilles' heel, hotbed, melting pot, acid test, veritable inferno or other lump of verbal refuse  into the dustbin where it belongs.

It was this kind of thinking that has shaped my paradigms and was behind the posts that I made in this discussion.
Knowing my own fallibility, I have gone over the discussion a few times looking for some flaw in what I may have written. Maybe out of over-familiarity with what I wrote, I was yet unable to see where this thinking could be flawed in any way which could materially affect the validity of the rationale that I employed.
Certainly, though you may see a flaw, you seem to have been unable to articulate it and demolish its foundation.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: 40hz on January 31, 2012, 02:40 PM
re: Berkun and Orwell above...

Excellent articles. And quite valid in many respects. But it's interesting that both writers, who are/were professional journalists seem blissfully blind to their own writing biases and prejudices, which seem to presume a journalistic news reporting style is not only better, but more honest, and intellectually rigorous as well.

I disagree. Journalism is just one more tool to help us covey information and express opinion. It's neither a one-size-fits-all nor ideal tool for all forms of, or reasons for, writing. A short-word, active-tense, and "no metaphors please' style is frequently bland and tiring to read. And it removes much of the individualism and 'voice' from a piece of writing.

But Orwell was also a socialist - so he probably wouldn't have considered that a bad thing. ;)

Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: TaoPhoenix on February 01, 2012, 08:34 AM
Hi gang.

I'd like to commend you both on some of the longest posts I've seen on the entire net! We're seeing too much "shorten this, shorten that" all over in the quest for cheap page click turnover.

My take on Buzzwords: It's in fact quite difficult to invent a word that actually "means nothing". Instead, my take on the abuse of buzzwords is more like "Let's announce a top level strategy and then duck any of the subsidiary technical details." It's a People-Skill situation, which in the Dilbert PHB style is used for company-politics ends.

And as for Maslow, I'd say his pyramid isn't "disproved". Once again, it's also difficult to create any theory with *zero* use. Remember, he was among other things reacting to Skinner's rather insidious legacy of rat mazes applied to people. A lot of evil corporate managers deliberately chop off the top couple of pyramid layers to force people to keep worrying about the lower rungs, which results in getting away with lower pay rates.

And yes, Game Theory has its uses. At the very simple level one of the deadliest is the Prisoner's Dilemma type, which applies to basically all situations where a centralized power plays off a (user/customer/employee) base of individuals against each other, based on, wait for it, fear derived effects. The solution to Prisoner's Dilemmas, is basically to get everyone (or enough) of the individuals to climb the pyramid to "beat the dilemma".

So I haven't seen the proof/"proof" that claims Maslow is "debunked". After all, people are "sorta wonderful", so if the "proof" is flawed, then everything spirals down into Alice's Wonderland when you have to decide if the mistake was honest or deliberate.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: 40hz on February 01, 2012, 09:17 AM
So I haven't seen the proof/"proof" that claims Maslow is "debunked". After all, people are "sorta wonderful", so if the "proof" is flawed, then everything spirals down into Alice's Wonderland when you have to decide if the mistake was honest or deliberate.

The only problem with Maslow's pyramid is the very top where you find the 'self-actualizing' needs being proposed. It's a problem because even Maslow admitted there was no real proof they actually existed other than casual observations and anecdotal evidence that seems to indicate they do.

But that's a far cry from rigorous scientific proof. And Maslow could very well be making a seriously wrong assumption. Something he himself was painfully aware of.

Anecdotal evidence and observation shows the sun orbits the earth rather than the other way around. But to say earth orbits the sun is also not completely true since the sun also moves within the galaxy. So the visual orbits are more a matter of where you're observing from than any underlying physics. A better argument would be to look at it from the perspective of who's gravitational field is more pulling whom. But that's not even completely cut and dried.

And that's the rub. There's no proof people actually do self-actualize. (Skinner would argue they didn't.) Because self-actualization argues for some higher order of existence or awareness (i.e. a soul) which amounts to a version of 'pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.'

It was something Maslow was never able to satisfactorily explain, although he did remark how horrible a world it would be if some form of self-actualization didn't really exist.

In the end, you have to take the existence of self-actualization on faith.

I do.  :)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: TaoPhoenix on February 01, 2012, 10:57 AM
Hallo!
I think the proof is both simpler and found *by being simpler*. Then you can flesh out the academic layering on top.

The Wiki version of the chart is a nice place to start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

In the spirit of not using buzz words, let's skip "actualize" and go to the subset words. Morality, Creativity, Problem Solving, Dispelling Predjudice, Accepting (Emotionally Difficult) Facts.

It seems easy to prove that people embark on qualitatively higher morality, social action reform, etc that certainly doesn't fit the lower categories.

If I were constructing a formal proof, I'd use one of the indirect proofs when that need is missing, and make it (I think the word is longitudinal) when an "actualizing" moment is identified, report/study it. You found an important partial proof fragment that you can't just "Game Show" someone into that top couple of levels. (In fact, there are famous esteem traps if the needs are met too fast!) And of course it's not nearly as airtight as the diagram hints, tons of poor people follow spiritual recommendations and "Actualize First, fulfill basic needs later".

I think the heart of "proofs" would come from when those missing top categories, which is how the theory developed in the first place. You'd start in a couple of categories. You pick someone running ragged, just ground down by life, say a factory worker whose plant just closed, and next week he'll get evicted because he has no savings.

"Hi. I talked to your landlord. You have 3 months free rent. Here's your new job. Start Tuesday, so you can sleep in Monday. Here's a $500 supermarket gift voucher and a $50 certificate to a nice restaurant. Here's a  Gas card with $1000 on it. Have a nice day!"

So after the shock wears off, you go find him in 3 months.  Tiers 1 and 2 are all set. Tier 3 could be fuzzy, let's say he used the gift card to take a buddy out to Fish & Chips and Beer to watch the Superbowl on TV. There's his friend.

It turns out his new boss is better than the old one, so he gets some nice OJT to learn a newer computerized machine and becomes Quality Supervisor Level 1. There's your Esteem boost. Maybe he gets his girl back because he's not being a jerk from stress.

So then he's just hanging out, but he's missing that top tier.

Then he hears about SOPA.

Boom - something clicks - he gets involved and schedules a vacation to visit Washington and visit his congressman. Actualization!



Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: 40hz on February 01, 2012, 04:57 PM
If you're interested in Maslow (and ready to move beyond Wikipedia), go here (http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html) to read a very good essay on Maslow's theories and ideas.

Note: self-actualization isn't properly a "buzz word" since Maslow coined and used that term in his writings.  :P
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on February 01, 2012, 09:04 PM
If you're interested in Maslow (and ready to move beyond Wikipedia)...
That could seem to be a rather cheap shot smacking of intellectual snobbery, and as such would do the author no credit. It could also seem to be irrelevant - providing neither rational substantiation of a previous argument nor disproving a previous argument.
Unless he has declared his ignorance (has he?), then suggesting by implication that someone else in a discussion is ignorant (whereas you are not, of course, because you provide an informative reference) is ad hominem (a logical fallacy). The relative ignorance of a person does not, of itself, invalidate their arguments, but it may make it difficult for them to articulate a well-reasoned argument on a subject on which they are relatively ignorant.

Note: self-actualization isn't properly a "buzz word" since Maslow coined and used that term in his writings.  :P
That would seem to be an incorrect statement - for example, from Etymonline:
Word Origin & History
self-actualization
1939, from self + actualization. Popularized, though not coined, by U.S. psychologist and philosopher Abraham H. Maslow. (1908-1970).
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

Matching Quote
"Housework is work directly opposed to the possibility of human self-actualization."
-Ann Oakley
(The quote from Ann Oakley is out of context and is not a rational construct or argument with any substantiation given, so it is probably merely a statement of opinion. Example: some people may find housework to be very fulfilling (say) as in "nest-building".)

And, similarly, "self-actualisation" is arguably a buzzword if you use a common definition.
For example:
buzzword
Pronunciation: /ˈbʌzwəːd/
(also buzz phrase)
noun
informal

    a word or phrase, often an item of jargon, that is fashionable at a particular time or in a particular context: the latest buzzword in international travel is ‘ecotourism’
(http://http://oxforddictionaries.com/)
Generally speaking, using the above with other common definitions, you will be able to equate:
buzzwords = clichés (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/clich%C3%A9) = jargon (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jargon)
Which references would provide a useful working definition of the term "buzzword". Thus the general use of buzzwords/clichés/jargon is such as to make them almost meaningless (undefined terms) for the purposes of using them as logical building-blocks in articulating clear and logical thinking.
They can become effectively tools which are antithetical to reason.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: 40hz on February 01, 2012, 10:19 PM
If you're interested in Maslow (and ready to move beyond Wikipedia)...

That could seem to be a rather cheap shot smacking of intellectual snobbery, and as such would do the author no credit.


@IainB -Perhaps a certain sort of person might take my words as a "cheap shot." But my mind doesn't work like that. All I was suggesting was that if someone were interested enough in Maslow to move beyond the mostly descriptive articles found in Wikipedia, the suggested article could provide a more in-depth treatment of Maslow's ideas.

That's all it meant as far as I was concerned. Feel free, however, to interpret it as you will.

As far as an accusation of intellectual snobbery...well, that's the first time anyone's ever suggested I was guilty of that. But there's a first time for being called anything I suppose.

Regarding the notion of buzzword as it applies to self-actualization, all I can suggest is that it may have become a buzzword with the passing of time and it's passing into common parlance. But in Maslow's case it was anything but. He was groping for a term. And as terms go, within the context in which he used it, it was a very evocative and apt choice of words.

As for the rest...what can I say? I lack the patience for infinite hair-splitting and other debating tactics. Being an intensely noncompetitive sort of person, I also lack the appetite for that sort of thing. If you've tracked down a more reliably documented origin for the term self-actualization, please accept my "bravos" and collect full points for it. I hardly think it has much real bearing on the discussion.

Whether Maslow ultimately coined the term, or merely popularized it, he meant it in a rather specific sense. Which I think is not the case with what most people think of as a buzzword. (And I'm sure you'll be able to find a source to contradict me on that point as well.  :mrgreen:)

Either way, this discussion has gotten rather tiring.

So I'll leave it to you and others to carry on.

Best! :) :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on February 02, 2012, 03:00 AM
@40hz: Apologies for the digression. And I do apologise if I offended you. I certainly meant no offense.
There was always the possibility that I was wrong and it was an entirely innocent and accidental choice of words, which is why I said (note the emphasis):
That could seem to be a rather cheap shot smacking of intellectual snobbery, and as such would do the author no credit.
That was a rational and impersonal statement.
The thing is, I have a choice if I am involved in a discussion and perceive that someone may be subjecting someone else to a put-down. I generally make the choice not to stand idly by and watch it happen, and will tend to directly address the issue when I see it - which was what I did.

If it wasn't intended as a put-down but just came out accidentally phrased in a way that could be interpreted as being patronising, then no problem. My misinterpretation.
But -and again, I could be wrong, of course - this (following) perhaps could have been intended as a put-down (my added emphasis):
Perhaps a certain sort of person might take my words as a "cheap shot."
This of course could be suggesting snidely that it is I who am "that sort of person" (in a pejorative sense).
Then again, perhaps that choice of words is accidental also. Only the speaker could know for sure.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on February 02, 2012, 05:37 AM
And as for Maslow, I'd say his pyramid isn't "disproved". Once again, it's also difficult to create any theory with *zero* use. Remember, he was among other things reacting to Skinner's rather insidious legacy of rat mazes applied to people. A lot of evil corporate managers deliberately chop off the top couple of pyramid layers to force people to keep worrying about the lower rungs, which results in getting away with lower pay rates.
It would be incorrect to say that because something has not been proven and yet:
isn't "disproved"
- then it has even a grain of truth in it.
It could be possible that it might contain some truth, but you won't know until it is proven.
Thus, if your "evil corporate managers" are taking an action based on Maslow's unproven theory, then they are being irrational, by definition.

When 40hz sees it as unproven, he openly says that he accepts it on faith:
And that's the rub. There's no proof people actually do self-actualize. (Skinner would argue they didn't.) Because self-actualization argues for some higher order of existence or awareness (i.e. a soul) which amounts to a version of 'pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps.'
It was something Maslow was never able to satisfactorily explain, although he did remark how horrible a world it would be if some form of self-actualization didn't really exist.
In the end, you have to take the existence of self-actualization on faith.
I do.  :)

In an earlier post in this thread, here (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=28395.msg265701#msg265701), I covered the points that there seems to have been nothing to prove Maslow's theory, and that it apparently remains just a theory.
That does not stop it from being:

However, as Wikipedia puts it (here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs)):
Recent research appears to validate the existence of universal human needs, although the hierarchy proposed by Maslow is called into question
Wikipedia gives references to support this statement - here (http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/08/maslow-20-a-new-and-improved-recipe-for-happiness/243486/#.TkvKIRv8USE.facebook), and here (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-101-2-354.pdf&pli=1).

That's why I said:
...Maslow's theory would seem to be a weak thing on which to base an argument for anything, because the research that relates to it has apparently only been able to throw the whole thing into question - i.e., the opposite of substantiating it (QED). There is apparently no proof that the theory holds out in practice (QED).
This would be quite the reverse, for example, to the validity of the theory (unverifiable at the time it was proposed) of gravitational lenses postulated by Einstein.

Similarly, I rather liked Arthur Conan Doyle's improbable (and still not disproved!) theory that there were pretty winged fairies at the bottom of that garden in the UK, and I felt rather disappointed when the last surviving of the two girls who showed him the photos of the fairies confessed on her deathbed that it had all been a hoax, and that she wanted to get it off her conscience before she died.
It sometimes seems to me as though we may all need to believe in fairy stories at one time or another.
Unfortunately (or not?) the exercise of reason seems to lay waste to all belief. Cold and absolute, there is only Proven or Unproven, True or False - no room for "nearly true" or "only a little bit false" (e.g., the myth of AGW). And people don't like having their cherished or preferred beliefs or their religio-political ideologies laid waste.
No wonder Galileo's life was put at risk by the RC Church because of his "heresy" - e.g., here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo).
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: TaoPhoenix on February 02, 2012, 07:26 AM
How do you even state the criteria of a proof? I tried an informal example above, in the sense of "given a class of people, the number of people engaging in "actualizing" activities is Non-Random and Greater Than the Control Group when the early levels of needs have been met."

Disproof/Not Yet Proven would indicate that there is no coorelation at all between met lower needs and higher activities. I'll take any links which demonstrate just that, but it feels very counter intuitive. "Hey, I can't make rent, so I think I'll go to Africa to feed starving kids."

Also I understand Maslow's theory to be a *correlation*, not a Boolean either-or-xor or such. (I'll leave that one to my betters.)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: TaoPhoenix on February 02, 2012, 07:30 AM
Re: Cheap Shots

I absolutely agree that Wikipedia is this "Bus Stop to Knowledge". It tends to be "sorta right", except for trolling etc it doesn't make that many blatant blunders. Then yes, if you really want to learn, Wiki's rather strange curation style does get in the way of insightful reading, so then you have to go to smaller sites.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on February 02, 2012, 08:49 AM
How do you even state the criteria of a proof?
I'm not sure how you would do this for Maslow's theory. At a guess it would require empiric research over several thousand people/cases, using a control group(s) and requiring defined and repeatable results.

Also I understand Maslow's theory to be a *correlation*, not a Boolean either-or-xor or such.
High correlation proves that there is high correlation. It does not prove a cause/effect relationship. One of the earliest lessons I had in statistics was to gather data about the import of bananas into the UK and the amount of reported crimes in the UK, over a period of years, and then summarise conclusions from the analysis of the data. There was no doubt about it, the rate of growth in the crime rate had a high correlation with the rate of growth in the import of bananas.
So did that mean you could use the projected growth in the import of bananas to predict the crime rate?
Certainly not - but it was initially easy/tempting to think that there might be a cause/effect relationship there...   (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/banana.gif)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on February 10, 2012, 02:11 AM
High correlation proves that there is high correlation. It does not prove a cause/effect relationship.
Interestingly, it looks as though this may yet be proven to be an inexact generalisation: Linking correlation to causation with power laws and scale free systems (http://feeds.arstechnica.com/~r/arstechnica/index/~3/NzKuPgcpSdY/seeing-a-power-law-in-data-doesnt-make-it-real.ars)
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on May 14, 2012, 09:03 AM
I liked this because it was in line with my confirmation bias, and because the author puts it all so much better than I could:
Gamification is Bullshit: My position statement at the Wharton Gamification Symposium (http://www.bogost.com/blog/gamification_is_bullshit.shtml)

The post is copied below without the embedded links:
Spoiler
In his short treatise On Bullshit, the moral philosopher Harry Frankfurt gives us a useful theory of bullshit. We normally think of bullshit as a synonym—albeit a somewhat vulgar one—for lies or deceit. But Frankfurt argues that bullshit has nothing to do with truth.

Rather, bullshit is used to conceal, to impress or to coerce. Unlike liars, bullshitters have no use for the truth. All that matters to them is hiding their ignorance or bringing about their own benefit.

Gamification is bullshit.

I'm not being flip or glib or provocative. I'm speaking philosophically.

More specifically, gamification is marketing bullshit, invented by consultants as a means to capture the wild, coveted beast that is videogames and to domesticate it for use in the grey, hopeless wasteland of big business, where bullshit already reigns anyway.

Bullshitters are many things, but they are not stupid. The rhetorical power of the word "gamification" is enormous, and it does precisely what the bullshitters want: it takes games—a mysterious, magical, powerful medium that has captured the attention of millions of people—and it makes them accessible in the context of contemporary business.

Gamification is reassuring. It gives Vice Presidents and Brand Managers comfort: they're doing everything right, and they can do even better by adding "a games strategy" to their existing products, slathering on "gaminess" like aioli on ciabatta at the consultant's indulgent sales lunch.

Gamification is easy. It offers simple, repeatable approaches in which benefit, honor, and aesthetics are less important than facility. For the consultants and the startups, that means selling the same bullshit in book, workshop, platform, or API form over and over again, at limited incremental cost. It ticks a box. Social media strategy? Check. Games strategy? Check.

The title of this symposium shorthands these points for me: the slogan "For the Win," accompanied by a turgid budgetary arrow and a tumescent rocket, suggesting the inevitable priapism this powerful pill will bring about—a Viagra for engagement dysfunction, engorgement guaranteed for up to one fiscal quarter.

This rhetorical power derives from the "-ification" rather than from the "game". -ification involves simple, repeatable, proven techniques or devices: you can purify, beautify, falsify, terrify, and so forth. -ification is always easy and repeatable, and it's usually bullshit. Just add points.

Game developers and players have critiqued gamification on the grounds that it gets games wrong, mistaking incidental properties like points and levels for primary features like interactions with behavioral complexity. That may be true, but truth doesn't matter for bullshitters. Indeed, the very point of gamification is to make the sale as easy as possible.

I've suggested the term "exploitationware" as a more accurate name for gamification's true purpose, for those of us still interested in truth. Exploitationware captures gamifiers' real intentions: a grifter's game, pursued to capitalize on a cultural moment, through services about which they have questionable expertise, to bring about results meant to last only long enough to pad their bank accounts before the next bullshit trend comes along.

I am not naive and I am not a fool. I realize that gamification is the easy answer for deploying a perversion of games as a mod marketing miracle. I realize that using games earnestly would mean changing the very operation of most businesses. For those whose goal is to clock out at 5pm having matched the strategy and performance of your competitors, I understand that mediocrity's lips are seductive because they are willing. For the rest, those of you who would consider that games can offer something different and greater than an affirmation of existing corporate practices, the business world has another name for you: they call you "leaders."

Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: TaoPhoenix on May 14, 2012, 01:13 PM
School is horribly Gamified.

There was a related xkcd a few days ago about how certain ex-students were vengeful that they never needed Algebra since they left school. In a way, they are right about non-work conditions. So passing Greek Geometry meant getting a good grade on the "Game" (test) then I've never needed to do a 19 step SAS theory proof since.

The Simpsons have done a couple of nice takes on all this too with Bart. In one early season he flunks the "game" (test) and gets stuck in detention again. Only that episode, he had really tried, and it only raised his flunk from a 32% to a 59%. So he was all "Aw man, now you know why I never bother, if I'm still stuck here."

So a little later he peels off some kind of speech like "Aw man, now I know how Paul Revere felt when he rode down the freedom trail and couldn't get the word to General Washington, so he had to go to the houses to get more minutemen..."

So Mrs. Krabappel took pity on him and gave him something like a 66%, a D. "I passed! For once I passed!"
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on May 25, 2012, 03:10 AM
The problem with appealing to Orwell's Politics in the English Language is that Orwell didn't simply rally against jargon but warned specifically against jargon used in the realms of politics. After all, this was the same person who wrote Animal Farm which was unnecessarily more metaphoric and jargon-ish than the Grimm's Fairy Tales.

Over time, it became sort of a "buzz article" to use the article as a sort of appeal to pop culture authority to explain away why simplicity is better but just because it's an article and not a word does not mean the terms "Politics in the English Language" is not often wielded in the same status as the buzz word Gamification.

Thanks however for providing that link. It gave me a better hint as to where you might be coming from. I dare say your problem might not be so much on buzz words as, just like that author, your stereotype example of what gamification implies.

A short example:

Gamification is easy. It offers simple, repeatable approaches in which benefit, honor, and aesthetics are less important than facility. For the consultants and the startups, that means selling the same bullshit in book, workshop, platform, or API form over and over again, at limited incremental cost. It ticks a box. Social media strategy? Check. Games strategy? Check.

Yes, there's a lot of bullshit out there and gamification being propped up in popularity as a buzz word does not make irrelevance the definition it provides. It's like with Maslow's self-actualization. Lots of ways to twist that around but anyone who's gotten any benefits from more Eastern practices like meditation can have a much clearer line as to what the line between self-actualization and non-self actualization is. It doesn't even have to be that complicated.

A doctor who finds his purpose in life for example is different from a doctor who earns his right to be a doctor and doing a thing he likes yet both revelations are linked closer to our personal anthromorphic idea of the world than to any dissimilarity between two near similar events having different meaning to us. That is why in some ways, self actualization is not so much the top of the pyramid chain but a product of all the lower chains adding up to a single chain and creating a paradigm shift in mindset within a singular entity.

Empirically it can be applied to the most mundane of revelations such as one changing his name to the most profound of basic needs such as one finding a person that they would love forever as opposed to loving until they become ugly, loving until they hurt them, etc etc. Of course love itself has often been categorized as insanity especially if you judge it through objective empirical actions.

It's the same way with Gamification's definition because before there was gamification the buzz word, there was gamification the design - but there was simply no unifying term to describe such designs except addictiveness.

See what the author fails to acknowledge is that complexity can grow through simplicity. The Sims for example went from being a game often categorized as a pointless game and ends up becoming a major tool for machinima. Something not many complex games can brag about even though, hypothetically, all games (including the failed but better aimed for movies sim The Movies) can prop up such a motivation.

Another deceptiveness with simplicity is that simple games are unable to contain depth when in actuality the common component of less is more is not really anything new and it has even baffled many game designers before. Like many people couldn't figure out the formula behind FF7's success and replicate it, even Square when in fact a huge part of it's long lasting appeal is it's simpler yet more proven designs compared to other Squaresoft games, even the ones the hardcore FF fans praise like FF6.

Cloud like Luke was your typical mystical hero and was a unique take on the more simple "mute" heroes.

Aeris' death though nothing new at the time was new because it was rare for such a purity designed creature to be killed. Especially a bland one. People rarely kill Mother Theresa's and Superman's and Captain America's in game as a type of plot twist but many more complicated (though still quite simple) characters have gone on to die in far more notable ways.

Even things like Barrett was a good throwback to a simple action hero and Sephiroth was a good pre-Neo from the Matrix concept of how to add depth to bland and simple designs.

In terms of gameplay, before there was the social gaming madness that attracted itself to Facebook games there was the more purer and infinitely more replayable Harvest Moon who embodied everything that gamification is about. A combination of simplicity that resulted in something different.

Even nowadays look at some of the Android games like Star Traders Elite who are way way much simpler than 4x game but through the simple idea of update often, update as much becomes one of the more popular (and deepest) games out there.

We're talking about a simple "flip switch" mechanic (for factions if you have actually played the game though I'm not using any programmer's jargon) that because of great design can end up matching up against some of the deeper aspects of classic 4x games (some whose factions have more ai based tendencies) and even match up to the depth of some modern more complicated designed and higher budget based games.

Yes, on the surface, many who sell gamification get it wrong but the critics are just as wrong if they can't even wrap their heads around the simple idea that the buzz words they are railing against is gamification and not game nor ification.

It may seem sound on the surface to separate the two in a way to unwrap the stereotypical mainstream gamification examples that popularized it as a buzz word in the first place but from a basic lexicon it falls apart. Yes, you have to attempt to mimic some design in tried and true fashion much as the way for increasing usability starts with adding features on top of familiar and comfortable features but to pull off the finished product in such a way that respects the lexicon behind the definition of gamification: you have to be able to make a game that matches the lexicon

The exploitationware? Of course any addictive game can be exploitationware but that is hardly unique to games that fall under gamification. MMORPGs and Sequels are far far far worse and have done more damage and earned more profits than games with concepts fulfilling gamification.

The Sims for example might be exploitationware but the Sims 1 was closer to something falling under gamification because at that point there had been nothing like it and for a long time, a complete collection of Sims 1 expansion far outweighed the content of the Sims 2 and Sims 3 which was the ultimate crime being expoused by critics against exploitationware. Mind you even exploitationware can be seen as an attempt to create a counter buzz word for the current buzz word.

In the end it's all about how much you've been exposed to a certain design. If you only know MMORPGs like WoW then you might not know the difference between it and it's more modern mainstream copies from MMORPGs like Dragonball Online and you'd end up hating and painting all MMORPGs as similar games even though there are many different MMORPG experience just from what server and what community that server has. Even a difference in gaming economy is shocking and that holds even truer for gamification. The idea of social currency starts with currency before the social. Just how the currency works alone is the equivalent of changing the revenue model of a gamified concept and that alone creates too much of a disparity to rail on gamification the concept as a single umbrella concept.

The most often cited ideas for example such as badges and points are in fact some of the more "loose" associations with the concept of gamification. It's just one of the more exposed and popularly stereotyped ideas out there.

By far more subtle things like changing an ugly looking icon to a more animated icon (an element badges borrowed with the combination of things like pop-up msgs) are more in line with gamification than the actual concept of badges.

The same goes for points. Many mistake the idea of points as some sort of unlocking meter or excuse for high score addiction like the popular classic games but in fact in it's true implementation, it's more about creating an artificial economy based on micro addictive options than points. Adding friends for example at a click of a button or following someone on Twitter are by far closer to a gamification concept (friend count/follower count) than the commonly applied "recruit a friend to receive a bonus" that many mainstream gamification type games/services have. It's why social gaming was successful on Facebook not w/o Facebook.

For this same reason, school is not really horribly "gamified". At least not if you're applying the lexicon in any sense. Gamified is not just about combining gaming aspects to non-games/poor games. Schools have lots of mini-concepts like clubs or fraternities or social groups that can be gamified but the reason few people like schools is because it's not "horribly" gamified. Scores are often motivational based on their points as opposed to the meaning of those points except if you pass a social line between smart, ok or dumb. Even many clubs have more of a tournament of life stress than a euphoric "almost MMORPG" like addiction except for those with the talent to compete for the Olympics or be part of a very special school program in a unique school setting that puts far more quality to their programs than your average generic school.

Not to say gamifiying schools is a solution but it's simply not horribly gamified under the lexicon of gamification even as a buzz word. Of course those who wield buzz words would try to get away with selling it as heaven sent but really the current school systems, even the best ones, are rarely horribly gamified. Saying it is is the equivalent of using a horrible boring game/service who have badge accomplishments as an example of gamification.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on May 29, 2012, 08:37 PM
Ironically I found an unintentional pyramid that makes self-actualization easier to understand in a concrete yet simple manner:

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

I say unintentional because not only was this not intended as a simplified version of Maslow (http://gigaom.com/2012/02/14/when-is-the-social-curation-bubble-going-to-burst/), the actual content is nothing enlightening. It's the same old simplified bastardization of social curation that's been roaming around in blogs when curation first took off.

Think of it like this: 99% of the lower hierarchy of Maslow are needs but they are non-productive needs on their own.

You can breathe but breathing won't make you become an athlete.
You can have self-esteem and be an athlete but self-esteem won't push you beyond the average yet exclusive crowd of elite athletes.

Each layer of Maslow's hierarchy becomes more and more anthromorphic yet as we know of anthromorphism, many of that can be illusions humans created.

Love for example is often equated to insanity and so Love by definition has many hypocritical interpretation, often leaning towards the positive and often painting the insane part of love as "tragic".

Of course the above pyramid is meant to paint contributors as "several different number of users". You have to modify that to one individual to make the idea more concrete.

As a human being, a person can be a lurker. As he feels safer, fall in love, belong, gain self-esteem he earns the courage to contribute.

Of course as most have experienced of self-help by now, many motivational highs can be a con. Extremely motivated people do not become superman. An extremely motivated man will never defeat a sociopath genius on steroids. Not even 1000 motivational men vs. 1 special person especially when that 1 person can be the head of an oligarch, lead people to delusions, create a cult, etc.

That doesn't mean a person can't achieve something from failure though. That's the 1% only it's not heavy contributor but one of a kind consistent contribution.

It can be something shallow from being the GOAT of a sport or something difficult like charity work. The key thing is to be consistently doing one of a kind work. The likes that even people who have your same drive or can explain your motivation can't even do. That's the simple definition of self-actualization from my understanding.

Let's take Paul Farmer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_farmer

Co-founder - difficult task check but how do you one up that? How do you Mountains beyond Mountains as the book says?

In addition to his hospital in Haiti, Farmer oversees projects in Russia, Rwanda, Lesotho, Malawi and Peru.

...now it's starting to become a special one of a kind form of obsession and love.

...but there are still many Paul Farmers out there even though, when you zoom out, he's part of a select few.

What creates the self-actualization part? It's becoming the equivalent of a heavy contributor of the online world only with the real world where you can actually die.

It's when you use your physiological needs to go to a place that lacks said physiological needs like how one review for the book writes:

Furthermore, he chose not just to dedicate superhuman effort to this profession, but to practice in one of the poorest of poor regions of the world, Haiti, where every newcomer is "blan" (white), even African Americans from the US.

Then on top of that, he used the growth he gained from safety to prepare himself and head towards a not so safe situation:

On a certain level, a doctor like Paul Farmer is an indictment of the way most physicians in this country practice. Paul Farmer could, if he chose, be one of the highest paid consultant in the country. He has demonstrated the intellect and the force of will to succeed at any branch of medicine. And yet, he chose infectious disease and epidemiology as his twin callings, two of the lower-paying specialties within the field.

Then on top of that, he falls in love only to leave his love ones:

V. Munsey says:
Yeah, what about his wife and kid? It sounds like they are pretty much ignored by him. How sad. Why did he marry and have a family if he knew his work would always take first place?

Then on top of that, he uses his self-esteem to put him in places that would destroy a normal person's self-esteem:

I think even non-physicians might have this initial reaction. I think a common defense mechanism might also be one that occurred to me, to pathologize Farmer, to think of his drive to help others as a need to satisfy some kind of internal conflict. After all, if Farmer does what he does to "quite the voices", then the rest of us are off the hook.

In the end, I came to realize that this was grossly unfair. A reader does not know and never can know what drives a man like Farmer, we can only judge him by his works. And those works are amazing. Time and again in his career, Farmer chose to push for the absolute best care for the absolute poorest of his patients. He refused to accept that the best HIV and tuberculosis drugs were "inappropriate technology" for Haiti. Instead, by tirelessly fighting for his patients, he redefined how tuberculosis and other horrible diseases are treated. I would encourage a reader to look closest at this aspect of Farmer, as it can be applied to all of our lives.

To close, I am reminded of the old saying:

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.

Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

--George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Paul Farmer is an unreasonable man who has changed the world.

That and see the critical Amazon review for his book Pathologies of Power (his self-esteem "unbelongs" him to the world:

Not only that: we should help them because, in most every case, their poverty is a sign that we have failed them. Farmer angrily ticks off case after case, most of them straight from his first-hand experience, where what initially looks like a senseless, random death is seen to be a symptom of a deeper systemic problem. The most haunting of these may be the death of a young Haitian girl named Acephie who contracted HIV from a Haitian soldier. She had sex with him because soldiers are some of the few Haitians with dependable salaries. But what led Acephie into that position of economic dependence to begin with? It didn't help that the Haitian government, with the blessing of Western development agencies, had evicted Acephie's family years before to build a dam; the family had to move to higher, poorer ground because of someone's idea of what was good for them. The road from there leads more or less directly to the AIDS death of a Haitian girl. (James Scott's Seeing Like A State contains a lot more tragedies in this direction.)

Pathologies of Power is filled with stories like that. It is not a hopeful book; it is very, very bitter. This despite Kidder's blurb on the cover to the contrary: Kidder recognized the anger, but saw hopefulness that I didn't.

That's what makes self-actualization both simple to understand and yet too vague. It's hard to categorize a word that should encompass one of a kind beings that in themselves are hard to define. Self-actualization gave it a good try but in order for it to give as much as a relevant definition, it had to fall under buzz word "vagueness" category too.

Not only that but we each in our lives can do something on par with a "lite" version of self-actualization but if we can't do it in a manner that makes us go through the lower areas of the pyramid, we can't intentionally pursue and destroy our bodies and minds in a one of a kind challenge to "Samsara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara)"

The best introspection occur when we act similar to lurkers in the internet but in real life.

The only way to gain enough friends or supporters to do something even bigger is to be a consistent contributor that shallow people would look upon as a beacon of hope or heroism.

...but those alone would be missing. If we were to create a children's story level of stereotype: A villain cannot self-actualize until he cons enough people and creates enough effective and dangerous plans for the best of heroes behind the scenes. Ditto for a hero. Even superman is just an overpowered boy scout until you see him lurk in his fortress or consistently beat better villains. Without those qualities, he's just a boring hero that even the best Hollywood writers or directors can't make interesting.

...and that's just paper thin self-actualization. Imagine encompassing the real aspects of a person's life like that of Paul Farmer in a single general word for everybody.

Full links to the reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R2IS87DMU7F8FH/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R2IS87DMU7F8FH

http://www.amazon.com/review/R2H611UM550HLQ/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R2H611UM550HLQ

http://www.amazon.com/review/RH4MU92DDW3SV/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#RH4MU92DDW3SV
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on June 04, 2012, 12:21 AM
Just to help things along:
Definition of terms being used in a rational discussion:

1. Self-actualisation: (a term used by, but not coined by Maslow)
This is a BS/buzzword/cliché (QED).
Maybe what Maslow was aiming for with this term was something like "transcendent", but somehow I doubt it, because otherwise he could easily have used that term - so why did he use another - and an undefined one to boot? That would surely have been deliberate - no? If it was deliberate, then he deliberately picked an ambiguous and undefined compound word as a term for something which he imagined but could not define.
In any event, it is kind of academic for us to suppose what he did mean, because even he seemed not to know or be able or willing to articulate a definition - as you point out above. It's the Emperor's new clothes, again.
So, really, there is arguably little practical use in discussing the veracity of, or use in real life of, an imagined and undefined thing ("self-actualisation") - even from a philosophical perspective. It's certainly not a scientific or a proper theoretical construct, anyway.
For example, even the theoretically ephemeral Higgs boson has a definition, though we do not yet know whether that boson exists beyond the realm of theory.

For the purposes of definition, and just to get us out of the discussion rut we seem to be in, this (following) seems like it could be at least one assumption or likely close approximation of what Maslow perhaps could have intended or meant:
From: World English Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transcendent)
transcendent (trænˈsɛndənt)
 — adj
1.    exceeding or surpassing in degree or excellence
2.    a. (in the philosophy of Kant) beyond or before experience; a priori
    b. (of a concept) falling outside a given set of categories
    c. beyond consciousness or direct apprehension
3.    theol  (of God) having continuous existence outside the created world
4.    free from the limitations inherent in matter
 
— n
5.    philosophy  a transcendent thing

2. Gamification:
This was the term used in the link in the opening post. It is a BS/buzzword/cliché (QED).
We still do not seem to have arrived at a possible definition for this otherwise undefined term. It does not appear to relate to the application of game theory. We have so far apparently been unable to guess at a definition that might fit/work in most/all of the various contexts in which it seems to be used in the current idiom. It is still therefore - by definition - a BS/buzzword/cliché (QED).

3. Anthropomorphism: (I think that's what you meant by "anthromorphism"- yes?)
From: Cultural Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anthropomorphism)
anthropomorphism definition
(an-thruh-puh- mawr -fiz-uhm) The attributing of human characteristics and purposes to inanimate objects, animals, plants, or other natural phenomena, or to God. To describe a rushing river as “angry” is to anthropomorphize it.

If that (anthropomorphism) is what you meant, then could you please explain to me what you meant by:
"Each layer of Maslow's hierarchy becomes more and more anthromorphic yet as we know of anthromorphism, many of that can be illusions humans created."
- because I do not understand the sense of this.

4. Lack of defined terms leads to irrational discussion:
Earlier on in this discussion, you wrote:
I can't really speak for Nikki obviously but as I'm also one of those who refer to Maslow's hierarchy of needs loosely in my own writing, I think what makes it so appealing to refer to that concept is not so much the existence of the hierarchy itself but the final step of self-actualization which depending on how you interpret it has elements of buzz and manipulation to it too.
Nikki's post was in a link per your opening post: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid. (http://www.nikkichau.com/2011/10/08/beyond-gamification-designing-up-maslow-pyramid/) Her post is absurd (QED).

I wonder if, because you have inadvertently used these BS words in trying to articulate your thinking in what you have written here or elsewhere, you might have entered into a state of ahamkara with the very BS terms we have been discussing.
If that (ahamkara) is the case, then:

Over the years, this is the sort of battle I have sometimes had with myself over some issues. One of the approaches I tend to use to help myself overcome my ahamkara is to become less "passionate" about what I think or believe, and more rational. Hence I describe myself as a rationalist. It feels like a bit of a battle sometimes, as it does not seem a natural thing for me/us to be rational, but we have the capability for rational thought and can direct our thoughts and thinking processes, if we choose.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.B
Post by: Paul Keith on June 04, 2012, 02:02 PM
Sorry, you lost me again with this reply.

There seems to be a strange subtext here where you picked up the word transcendent and now are enforcing that upon self-actualization. I would understand if Googling it would lead to some clues but the Google results I found leads to this:

http://www.rare-leadership.org/Maslow_on_transpersonal_psychology.html

Abraham Maslow:

I have recently found it more and more useful to differentiate between two kinds (or better, degrees) of self-actualizing people, those who were clearly healthy, but with little or no experiences of transcendence, and those in whom transcendent experiencing was important and even central…. I find not only self-actualizing people who transcend, but also nonhealthy people, non-self-actualizers who have important transcendent experiences. …

...so now I'm confused as to why you're insisting all of self-actualization is intended to mean transcendent.

Even the word transcendent is too obscure, unscientific, often used as marketing babble supplement...so again this is confusing. Transcendent's etymology appears to simply be the word transcend. That's a proven word that tries to obfuscate a clear word.

Meanwhile actualize from the beginning is already a complicated word:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=actualize&allowed_in_frame=0

actualize
    1810, first attested in Coleridge, from actual + -ize. Related: Actualized; actualizing.

Notice how that link separates to actual:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=actual&allowed_in_frame=0

...a word which contains no simpler alternatives that matches it's meaning

and

ize:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=-ize&allowed_in_frame=0

When you add another -tion to it. Of course it can come off complicated and vague especially when you are being unhelpful at clarifying where your misunderstanding is and because you would prefer to paint an impractical word that intentionally obscures a simple word as opposed to sticking with the lexicon of the words you are railing on.

It's just not helpful attitude for discussions. It would be like asking a geologist what geography means and how it is scientific only to point out that since the geographer has never been to other planets that geology is just as hoaky and un-scientific as astronomy and then compounding the problem further by insisting that one should have ought to use "biology of earth" instead of the term "geography" because you consider the word geo to be vague.

I'm not saying the words used here are as scientifically linked to empricism as geography but rather the argument you're raising could easily be applied to any word and make them all seem vague and therefore buzz words.

Not only that, you've gone from questioning whether it is a buzz word (a point of discussion that has already been settled) and are now reraising the point as a way of demonizing and ignoring the counter points raised towards your previous replies.

Worse, you've gone totally blind in your own hatred for what you perceive as buzz word. Instead of defining why it is BS, you simply add it as BS. Fair enough, you haven't exactly brought your usual IainB mentality to this thread but it's so bad - you're now lumping an entirely different concept that not only wasn't brought up prior but is not relevant at all to the BS of buzzword. The word cliche.

With regards to anthropomorphism:

I apologize. I constantly misspell that word.

What I mean by that is the higher you supply your needs, the more human you or I become based on the anthropomorphic view of humanity.

Man for example can survive entirely in the physiological and has done so before and many suffering in poorer countries, continue to do so because of this aspect.

Without safety though, man becomes closer to that of an animal. Not only in terms of personality but growth.

A good portion of the creative and nurturing aspect of man came from then having safety. Not the safety of employment and other modern terms but just the thought of safety switches man's subconcious intelligence to things like family or working on things like agriculture.

...but are we human simply because we have love? ...are we exempt from becoming automatons simply because we have jobs?

No. If anything, we'd be more bionic. Not in the typical assumption we have of what it means to be a robot, a man-beast, a cave man, a neantherthal, a hobo, etc....but we become cold.

The more we fill up our needs (according to the pyramid), the more we become like animals, like plants, like inanimate objects.

Without problem solving for example, PC users end up becoming more like plants. Where as plants need sunlight, we end up becoming humans chained to MMORpgs, Facebook, 24/7 internet and the more we rely on it, the more we're rooted to our chairs. Yes, we could stand up but eventually that's no better as mobile gadgets make us more rooted to an external piece of device.

Only people who have solved the problem of computer ignorance can humanize themselves while still being addictive to a computer lifestyle. Why is that?

Because when you learn to troubleshoot computers, you get to improve upon your area of employment. Not just in terms of opportunities or promotions but also in terms of expansion. When computer software are just like paper to you and you can make great art, you can have a job as an artist and all the benefits that comes with that versus someone who barely scrapes by on a PC.

When you know how to hack, certain desires that you used to do with your computer expand. Maybe you used to just read an online news site, now you're knowledge makes you stand up from your seat and establish grassroots campaigns, gain faster knowledge of inside info that you used to have to rely on face value, do things that make the computer be more a tool rather than a drug even if you're consuming like a drug. It'd be the equivalent of someone who loves basketball getting to the NBA.

In terms of humanizing inanimate objects, just ask anyone who feels like they are in a dead end job or have bad training how much static their world is. Not only this but there's so many slice of life storylines made to depict such human beings who fall into a job, fall into a depression, fall into apathy. All these very possible not just despite of love or security or water or food but often times because of those.

In terms of humanizing animals. without morality, soldiers would consistently go to war like bots assigned by politicians to kill a target. Without creativity...film,art, sexual positions, innovations...all those stagnate. Without spontaneity, we'd end up feeling suicidal over one situation that makes us depressed and the world while dynamic, would seem dull to us. The list goes on and on.

That's a basic flaw of Maslow's hierarchy if you omit self-actualization.

Of course then the question is, why not just put creativity on top? Why not just put any pet word you want on top like your pet word of transcendence?

Hell, why not buzz it up? Why not just say dreams or goal setting or GTD black belt...why not just put a word that people want to transcend to? Why not just put spirituality? Why not just put religion? Why not just put being worshipped as  a king in a world where monarchy is dead?

Because those don't properly encompass what humans aspire to. Not only that, it doesn't address basic human delusion. People who want to become firemen end up not wanting to become one as they grow up.

People who transcend so many office politics end up becoming more bitter and psychopathic because of what they have to sacrifice.

Even those who "self-transcend", how many "self-transcend" from lowly virtuous politician only to be eaten alive post-transcendance and become corrupt politicians who continue the toxic job of a status quo? How many become Che Guevaras? How many become Ferdinand Marcos? How many become Obamas? Even in literature there's plenty of examples.

It is not some deep or obscure pitfall.

The Queen in Snow White transcended to become a queen only to die how?

The Little Mermaid transcended the basic acquisition of love only to be payed by her lover how?

Even in modern kid's tales. Shrek transcended from Ogre to Hero only to destroy the kingdom in Shrek Forever After and managed to make up for it simply because of a retcon loophole.

At the same time, people do transcend but what makes their transcendence different?

That is the difficulty the word self-actualization is trying to encompass.

What is a word that can differentiate between Muhammad Ali and other sports athletes while still respecting elite sports achievement such as those done by Michael Jordan for basketball? What is a word that can encompass both sets of those motivations while still fulfilling it's place as a need.

Not only that, what is a word where it can both fit a criteria where you can place creativity at the top while still demanding a form of fusion where you have to involve your love, your belonging, your security, your physiological needs...you have to put all those motivations together just to gain the consistent guts to train for a prize fight, the consistent guts to be a brave soldier who has a specialty surpassing the ordinary soldier who is also brave? What is a word that would make one organize a revolution against their King, Oligarch or even mini-dictator like mayors especially a revolution that has a 1% chance of success?

What is a word that not only encompasses a person reaching a certain state yet not simply glorify him for reaching a hard to reach spot?

...for it's too easy to use that as a con. When the world can respect a position that's historically linked to the most anti-Christ tasks such as mass murder. A position that was even once accused of being the Anti-Christ: The position of Pope...then you know it is dangerous to simply use any word like transcendence as the top of any "need chain". I am not saying it's not a remarkable achievement to transcend especially self-transcend but just like any buzz word that has been used to cultify the desperate... such a word placed on top would be glorified in such a manner that it provides a false picture of need.

...yet want is important is it not? Pass the physiological level, are not love/safety/belonging just as much wants as they are needs? What word can avoid that?

I'm not saying self-actualization has done a picture perfect job of filling that position but that is what the definition of self-actualization is trying to define and it's what I mean when I wrote: "Each layer of Maslow's hierarchy becomes more and more anthromorphic yet as we know of anthromorphism, many of that can be illusions humans created."

...only it gets worse:

To me, every word has two notability.

1) A word's definition is it's notability. Even a vague definition can be notable if it's definition has the intent to clarify. Especially as there are many philosophical, cultural and contextual based words that don't survive the transition to another language.

The 2nd one:

2) A word's impact and influence to one's philosophy. Example: If that hobo from across the street wrote Politics in the English Language with the same content but with a different title like, TrampSpeak in the Bazoo of the Barnacle... would you use that lesser known example or would you cling towards the authoritative familiarity of Orwell? It's a rhetorical question but such a choice defines and decides why a person would use a certain phrase or a certain line of explanation to define something.

Therefore when I wrote:

"Each layer of Maslow's hierarchy becomes more and more anthromorphic yet as we know of anthromorphism, many of that can be illusions humans created."

...I also meant to highlight by using Paul Farmer as an example the case that the above "standard" is a kiddie one.

The world is a lot worse than Popes. It's a lot worse than Presidents. It's a lot worse than governors.

Unlike Hollywood movies, life does not end in a happy or conclusive ending.

...but also unlike unorthodox Hollywood and indy films, life does not end at all and I think because of this fact, the word self-actualization (while it can be used as a buzz word) also transcends and does a good job of being the word on top of the hierarchy needs.

There's the part where glorifying leads to buzz words and cons and all of the things I wrote above.

Then there's reality. If self-actualization is just a state, then it can't be superior to the lower levels of the pyramid. After all, no one considers love to be just something you "transcend" over. Not even in an idealized romanticized version of love. Not even if love is painted as a mindset. Love is not a word whose definition sticks.

You can think you're in love only to find out you're not. You can think you're used to love only to find out you've fallen in love again. You can even live an entire life cycle where you encompass most of the social norms of love like years of marriage, loyalty to your wife, opted for a loved one over a better sex partner, loved not just your wife but become a person who's reknowned for loving lots of people but still loving your wife the most...all those, yet it's very possible for you to realize on your death bed that you've not truly loved at all.

That's the beauty of the word "actual". What is actual to you now may not be actual a second later. What is actual to others that they impose on you may not be something that you impose on yourself. Add the -ize and it's just as beautiful.

What seems like a word similar to "activate" sounds more profound if only because of our basic knowledge or habits when we used the word actual.

Then add self and -tion and it is really a word that transcends it's basic lexicon if only because we often think of the word self as referring to "us".

It's not though. As most productivity based self-help books that are often praised like to hide behind on: Self can mean your goals, self can mean your influence, self can mean everything you as a human being is doing around you.

Self can basically mean what you can and have and are now capable of achieving. In short, self can be a word used for BS and buzz especially as an add-on and self-actualization is no different.

What is different though is that actualization as a word is both too wordy and too obscure to use as a buzz word and the only reason it can be used to BS someone is because the hierarchy of needs became famous.

In truth, it's word holds a basic yet great philosophical question similar to questions like "What is free will?" and "Who owns the sky?"

Things that used to be grand and profound and have now become made tedious by academia.

The question self-actualization alludes to ask me when I read it is: "What is your actual self?"

Now without the hierarchy, the question itself is nothing special to me.

It's the combination of the obviousness of the lower needs plus the word self-actualization that makes it profound.

To link this to my above addendum, the reason I say it's worse is that self-actualization also hints to the fact that even if you fused your creativity and belonging and love and physiological needs...you're not really doing enough of the needs...but worse, you may not even realize it...but even worse, you may reject it upon realizing it.

For example, lots of people praise/want to be Jesus, Paul Farmer, someone else...but what's toxic is that often times we don't even know ourselves and that's why even the best idealized fusion of the lower needs of the pyramid are not enough to simply be written as "Fusion of the elevated experience of the below needs". It has to be written as self-actualization if simply for the fact that what truly motivates us (even if we're just limiting it to philosophy) is not something that we truly know or embrace....or even when we embrace it, we'd quit mid-way of our life.

But that's not what makes it worst. What makes it worst is that even if you embrace it, there's no neutral or even cynical ending.

Someone who wants to be a follower of God does not necessarily want to be crucified...or even punished in a lesser manner. So those who do indeed go through that...even in a world where crucifixion is likely, assuming they did not just do it to commit suicide or are masochistic in nature, these people are the ones who self-actualize. That is to say, these people do not just overcome. They do not just reach. They are philosophically hard wired towards this. It's not just a conscious choice nor is it a totally subconscious decision. It's a living lifestyle but it's also a constant lifestyle of achieving enhanced safety, enhanced belonging, enhanced physiological access across a wider span of the planet... it's borderline crazy.

If you want to throw some Hindu Philosophy on it, I can only rely on some Buddhist examples like:

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/books-articles/articles/daily-life-practice-retreat-theme-march-2010/

“Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away… when bending & extending his limbs… when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl… when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring… when urinating & defecating… when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert”.

Are you kidding me?! Who's mindful when they are urinating and defecating?! It's impressive to just be able to pray when nature calls but indeed not only do teachers/disciples/scholars tend to omit these details but they don't dare state it in such details.

Instead this is just an addendum. For a person to go to this extreme and be truly mindful, they would have to not only self-identify and transcend into a state of mindfulness, they have to self-actualize. Just to bring forth the full picture: You have to consistently be fully alert whenever you're defecating and urinating. It doesn't matter the intensity of your bowel pains. It doesn't matter if you can't find a place to pee or the public toilet is so dirty and there's no tissue paper, you have to be alert and there's no reward. (Well there is in a religious enlightenment sense but still...no one will blame you if you fail this one detail...)

That's the depths of self actualization. In it's true lexicon, in it's sincerest definition, it has no rewards and it's anti-motivational despite supposedly being a need that someone has to fill.

As far as ahamkara, I don't want to go into details because I still respect your posts in other threads but have you asked yourself:

"You know Paul Keith, you have a point there."

Because I have, and the lengths of my replies and the directions they go forth on are existing evidence that you may not understand me but I try to make you understand through constant rephrasing, re-editing all while you insert such unhelpful replies and constantly repeat the same vague "there's no clear definition for this" and now you've even gone forth to flaming me as delusional and worse you treat a word like ahamkara so lightly that it becomes a BS word in your usage.

While I fail to see why such a non-passion necessary post could lead to such deep insults, because I respect you and I respect this community, I suggest you find some way to revisit your perception because you're not being rational as far as this post goes. By using ahamkara in such a light manner just as a way to avoid the discussion, that is not only passion, that is vitriole.

As you said you can choose and I'm not even a novice on Hindu philosophy but again, I suggest you reflect on your recent post. I don't care if your later reply claims that you have reflected prior to writing that post...ahamkara is not a word you throw out in a civil internet discussion. Ego is ego but ahamkara is not just ego, it's not just delusion, it's not just anger, it's not even the delusion of insisting a certain belief.

Please reflect! Again, I am in conflict because you're usually as you say a rational user. Not only that but by telling you to reflect, it can be interpreted as an angry rebuttal to your own words. Not only this but I am also not very familiar with Hindu philosophy so what right do I have to tell you to reflect? Furthermore, who knows whether you're just trolling me or not.

If you're sincere in using such a grave word as ahamkara though in this context, forgive me for not treating you as an equal and only being able to comeback with a simple rhetoric of reflect. Reflect and understand why the bolded parts of this paragraph was included in the story:

http://scriptures.ru/guide_in.htm

205. What is the inner significance of the story of Gajendra Moksha?

Gajendra was a king in his previous birth and he became an elephant on account of a curse given to him by a sage. Here king signifies Atma. Atma is the king and Paramatma is the kingmaster. This elephant forgot the Atmatatwa and he was leading a life of attachment and illusion, entering the forest of life. Wandering in the forest of life it became thirsty. This thirst relates to the enjoyment of the senses. Immediately it saw a lake. This lake signifies worldly desires and that is called the samsara. He wanted to enjoy the pleasure of samsara and entered the lake. At once a crocodile, which can be compared to 'Mamakara' or attachment and 'Ahamkara' or ego, caught hold of its leg. The elephant was not able to escape from it. It tried all its physical and mental strength but in vain. At last it prayed for God's help. Similarly we are leading our lives entirely depending upon the strength of the body and mind. But these are not capable of giving happiness or peace. When we dedicate these two strengths to God and think that everything depends upon the grace of God, then we may get peace and happiness with the grace of God. When the elephant prayed, God sent his Chakra called "Sudarsana Chakra" and killed the crocodile and saved the elephant. The inner meaning of 'Sudarsana' is "Su" means good - darshan means vision. So Sudarshan is not merely a weapon or instrument: it is the good look of God, when elephant turned his sight to God, the look of God also turned towards the elephant. So also our Bhagawan says "You look to me and I shall certainly look to you".

Furthermore reflect on why:

The crocodile in its last life was a king called HuHu in the Gandharva planet. Once while enjoying himself in the waters, he pulled the leg of a sage. The enraged sage cursed the king to become a crocodile in his next life. The repentant HuHu asked for pardon. The Sage proclaimed that though he cannot reverse the curse, the crocodile would be liberated from the cycle of birth and death when Gajendra would be saved by the Lord Vishnu Himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gajendra_Moksha

Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on June 04, 2012, 05:53 PM
Well, I'm sorry Keith, this is all very repetitive. Maybe we are talking at cross-purposes and will never be able to understand each other in this - and it's possibly because of our different and peculiar paradigms.
The trouble is that I have not yet found a more useful/constructive paradigm than one which is fundamentally rationalistic, and, looking at the world through that paradigm, and thinking with it, I see some of your writing in this thread as sometimes being irrational and thus largely incomprehensible.
If you take a classic communication model:
Transmitter parcels communication:-->encode-->transmit-->decode--> :Recipient reads parcel and understands.
- then what you say does not seem to decode at my end into something that is entirely comprehensible to me. Failure of communication.

I only used the definition of "transcendent" because there was no working definition (that I am aware of) that we were using for "self-actualisation". I have consistently pointed out that a discussion that uses undefined terms cannot be rational, by definition (that's not an opinion).
By suggesting "transcendent", I was only trying to be helpful and move things along. If that definition ("transcendent") won't do, then why do you not not suggest something else that will do? Otherwise, continuing discussing things using the term "self-actualisation" would indeed be (as I think I have already suggested) rather like discussing the buttons on the Emperor's new (invisible) clothes - i.e., an absurdity/irrationality.

I think I did previously establish the connection between BS=jargon=buzzord=cliché, so that should be nothing new.

The term "ahamkara":

By the way, I don't "hate" buzzwords as you suggest. I merely detest the use of buzzwords in attempts to hold a rational discussion or in making an argument. The use of such terms potentially clouds our thinking, and that could make us stupid and easier for others to manipulate. It also undermines or defeats the objective of holding a rational discussion. If you unthinkingly accept the use of buzzwords in an argument, then you effectively relinquish the responsibility for thinking for yourself.

Are you kidding me?! Who's mindful when they are urinating and defecating?
Anyone who wishes to practice mindfulness as a meditative exercise. I can confirm this is so from my own experience in meditation.

Then there's reality. If self-actualization is just a state, then it can't be superior to the lower levels of the pyramid.
You would probably be right, but the thing about Maslow's pyramid was that it was a hierarchy of needs. It wasn't suggesting relative superiority/inferiority of states per se, but merely that you could not move from the 1st need level to the 2nd one until your needs at the 1st level had been met, and so on. I think that that part of Maslow's theory stands up pretty well, simply because he defined them as fixed but necessarily linearly successive states.
The trouble with using pyramids in diagrams is that they are ambiguous on their own. If you employ them in a concept diagram, then one person's interpretation of meaning could be quite different to what the author might have intended.

"Each layer of Maslow's hierarchy becomes more and more anthromorphic..."
Well, yes, of course it is anthropomorphic. It is, after all, supposed to be modelling human needs. Whether it becomes more anthropomorphic as you progress up the pyramid would arguably be a matter of individual perception.

For a person to go to this extreme and be truly mindful, they would have to...
I am not aware that the Universe has put any rules on what must be done to be truly mindful, though I strongly suspect that meditation helps as a start.

"You know Paul Keith, you have a point there."
I actually did ask myself that question, before writing what I did. I considered but was unsure as to whether it was my inability to decode what you said, or your inability to put things more rationally, or a mixture of both that was the problem.

If you're sincere in using such a grave word as ahamkara though in this context...
- and there I think you show something of yourself. Who says it is a "grave word"? It can be any kind of word. I call it a useful and defined concept. It is merely a very useful tool for thinking with. Ahamkara with the word ahamkara? Possibly ahamkara with the terms "self-actualisation" and gamification as well?
We are all probably in a state of ahamkara to some degree, at one stage or another, if not all the time.

...life does not end at all...
Can be neither proven nor disproven, except presumably by individual experience.
Transcendence.

But "self-actualisation" = a form of transcendence as I had suggested? It could be so, as I supposed, but I am not convinced. Who knows? I only siuggested it as a working definition, to get out of this rut we seem to be in.

However, all this would seem to be a long way from the absurdity of "Gamification and designing up Maslow's pyramid".
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on June 05, 2012, 04:28 AM
I have consistently pointed out that a discussion that uses undefined terms cannot be rational, by definition (that's not an opinion).
-IainB

Then you need to reflect more on your own post.

Rational behaviour would be either one of these:

1) Make your case and then reply to it as a failure of communication

2) Repeat your case and then rephrase it to make it easier to understand

Rational behaviour would not include these:

I only used the definition of "transcendent" because there was no working definition (that I am aware of) that we were using for "self-actualisation"

I wonder if, because you have inadvertently used these BS words in trying to articulate your thinking in what you have written here or elsewhere, you might have entered into a state of ahamkara with the very BS terms we have been discussing.
If that (ahamkara) is the case, then:

    * (a) you will be unable to accept any denial of their existence as real/useful objects, because to do so would mean that you had been mistaken in using them in the first place, and your ego can't allow that thought (cf. De Bono re "intellectual deadlock"). So your ego may now oblige you to have to defend these useless BS things instead of saying, "You know Iain, you have a point there. They are purely imaginary and undefined constructs and I have only been imagining that I have been using them, but it seemed very real to me at the time."
    * (b) to rationally refute the terms at this stage could be a very hard thing for you to do, but it would be interesting if you were able to do it. It would probably demonstrate that you are able to exercise the capacity to overcome your internal intellectual deadlock and transcend your ego, and become more rational in the process.

...now you're even stepping back on your own words.

You didn't take a classic communication model.

1) This is not your first reply so it didn't stop at decode and you didn't just received...you replied. Several times at that.

2) You may have understood or misunderstood but you did not simply failed to decode in your last post. You decided to obfuscate/shred/insert new irrational content.

It can't even be objectively rationalized that you were trying to be helpful. There's too many irrational things with your previous and current line of thinking.

For example your mixing of ahamkara and trascendent and gamification, etc. etc.

A rational person would have easily figured out that sticking to one word would have been helpful if indeed inserting the word transcendent is what you mean by helpful.

As an addendum, if you were trying to be helpful, you would be defining why transcendent is not a buzz word but instead you're focusing on ahamkara.

One also cannot ignore the obvious. Even if one were to accept that you were trying to be helpful, why is it that you added a word for self-actualization and simply mixed and repeated the BS/buzzword/cliche demagoguery for the other terms?

Even here, I dare you to rationalize to me how this is objective:
then why do you not not suggest something else that will do? Otherwise, continuing discussing things using the term "self-actualisation" would indeed be (as I think I have already suggested) rather like discussing the buttons on the Emperor's new (invisible) clothes - i.e., an absurdity/irrationality.

A rational man would have simply asked, "why do you not suggest something else that will do?"

Nay, a rational man would have already remarked on how I have done so already several times and explained why my previous suggestion does not make sense to him.

You sir, though often are rational, am not being a rational person in this thread. Why, you cannot even keep yourself from repeating the words Emperor's new clothes several times. Each time adding one new insult or sarcasm such as (invisible).

The term "ahamkara":
Speaking of BS logic: "Yes, you are right. Hate and detest would not be considered the same words in the context of this discussion." /sarcasm

Again, I apologize for being harsh. I am not a religious person but I can be a fundamentalist when I observe that someone is misusing and bastardizing a religious or spiritual or philosophical dogma to pump themselves up whether it is to win an illusionary argument/to defend their own egos/or simply to attack another person with more unorthodox words. I try to be less passionate about it but it's hard when you know a person has done better before. I'm almost always motivated to call them out on it even to the point of offending them.

As you say, one can detest the use of any word. I will say though, you are confused. Of course if a topic includes words that you consider buzz words then of course those words would be included in the discussion lest you want to go off-topic. To adopt such an attitude and post in a thread you detest would cloud the rationality of a thread more than simply desiring the removal of buzz words in any discussion especially when a rational person like you would end up acting irrational because of your... detestation.

You would probably be right, but the thing about Maslow's pyramid was that it was a hierarchy of needs. It wasn't suggesting relative superiority/inferiority of states per se, but merely that you could not move from the 1st need level to the 2nd one until your needs at the 1st level had been met, and so on. I think that that part of Maslow's theory stands up pretty well, simply because he defined them as fixed but necessarily linearly successive states.
The trouble with using pyramids in diagrams is that they are ambiguous on their own. If you employ them in a concept diagram, then one person's interpretation of meaning could be quite different to what the author might have intended.
-IainB

True. But as the pyramid was made then yes, it depicts a relative superiority/inferiority of needs. (not states).

This doesn't devalue the inferior need though for the very reason you cited: "the 1st level is required for the 2nd level therefore the 1st will always be a necessary need but the higher level would always be more of a desirable need."

I would say this is not a weakness though but a strength. If we should adopt Maslow's personal interpretation of love then what happens when we disagree with his version of love? The inflexibility of such an idea would keep the hierarchy of needs from being valid.

Even with food and water. If this is rigid to Maslow's interpretation then clearly abundance of food and water would be a physiological requirement for love but that is not the case for many impoverished areas of the world. One can fulfill the need of belonging if for a brief moment that trickle of water preserves them a moment to live and said belonging could be imparted by the mutual love of two beings. It may not be truly safe...say the couple is surrounded by approaching scorpions, snakes and wolves while a mega-tsunami full of immortal sharks is going to wash upon them but one could fulfill the need of safety/belong/love/etc if only because they can acquire an extended time that would allow them to feel a sense of peace before they die thanks to that trickle of water.

Well, yes, of course it is anthropomorphic. It is, after all, supposed to be modelling human needs. Whether it becomes more anthropomorphic as you progress up the pyramid would arguably be a matter of individual perception.
-IainB

Incorrect. Human needs differ from culture to culture. (no different from animals)

Anthropomorphism is when the mind tries to rise over the cultural/social bias to depict humanity in a more objective light. Unfortunately because it does so, it mistakes certain attributes for it relieves said attributes of the right context especially when one is not fully knowledgeable of a different culture. That's why it is possible to be applied to inanimate objects or animals.

There is little anthropomorphic view about the physiological needs for example. You can program a robot to not only eat but need food or water with the proper innovation and that would not raise the anthropomorphic view that much.

In fact, you don't need to wait for robots. How many humans apply an anthropomorphic view to puppies drinking water or eating food? Little to none. It is instead the desire for hunger and thirst that might raise that characteristic in a human. An attribute more related to safety than to the need of food or water.

Not only that but by adopting a model where the 2nd cannot be reached without the 1st, it is almost impossible to go up without becoming more anthropomorphic if only because the attributes of the 1st would be brought to the 2nd and the attributes of both the 1st and 2nd would be raised to the 3rd.

This is not just a case of perception. It is the inevitability of it's design.

I actually did ask myself that question, before writing what I did. I considered but was unsure as to whether it was my inability to decode what you said, or your inability to put things more rationally, or a mixture of both that was the problem.
-IainB

Then I apologize then but the feeling is mutual. Not until the part of this reply where you got back to talking about Maslow and my statement of anthropomorphism have I felt that you considered my point.

- and there I think you show something of yourself. Who says it is a "grave word"? It can be any kind of word. I call it a useful and defined concept. It is merely a very useful tool for thinking with. Ahamkara with the word ahamkara? Possibly ahamkara with the terms "self-actualisation" and gamification as well?
We are all probably in a state of ahamkara to some degree, at one stage or another, if not all the time.
-IainB

I don't know...maybe Hindu philosophy? Maybe Vedic philosophy?

To me, this shows less of me and more of your disconnect.

It would be like asking how the phrase "an eye for an eye" can be a grave word when thrown by a Christian.

Even you alluded to this by making a statement of "all the time". Any "all the time" event is a grave word especially when that "all the time" word is used in a contradicting observation where I, Paul Keith, somehow was not in a degree of ahamkara who with my constant posts in this topic "fell" into what should be a state that I should already have but not only fell but fell to the point that I fell into a severe state of ahamkara that I am deluding myself and keeping myself from admitting that you have any point despite constantly replying and borderline necro-bumping this thread after I have been briefly held back by a real world event from replying.

Sounds pretty grave to me.

Not only this but some consider ahamkara a "computer bug" left behind from the recreation of the universe. A bug so persistent that Krishna could not command nor save the world with his death (like Jesus and the concept of sin) and can only utter a detestation where it must be rejected somehow through subordinating it not just to a superior being (like one would delegate a problem to a specialist) but to THE most superior being that Krishna perceives.

Of course all grave words can be useful for thinking because of the gravity of their implications so yes, certain paradigms we use does make it harder for us to understand each other and this rebuttal is one of them. How can I show myself when most people would consider ahamkara a grave word especially when it is being thrown at them by what usually is a rational person? It's a weird line of thinking especially as it is you who introduced this word to the discussion. Introduced it in a manner directed at me rather than Maslow's hierarchy or Gamification even.

Can be neither proven nor disproven, except presumably by individual experience.

Transcendence.
-IainB

Uhh...no... I'm not talking about just individual life but the impact of individual life. The things left behind by a dead person like memories, influence, contributions, legacies.

But again, I am disappointed. We're back again to the cheap replies and now you've gone to cherry picking words and rebutting with your pet word transcendence when earlier in your reply you have already admitted it is unhelpful.

I can't even figure out your last paragraph as you don't even explain it. You simply humped on back to an unhelpful direction just when you seem to be leaving it just so you can have a last word on how much you detest buzz words.







Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: IainB on June 05, 2012, 10:29 AM
What I wrote here seems to be true:
Well, I'm sorry Keith, this is all very repetitive. Maybe we are talking at cross-purposes and will never be able to understand each other in this - and it's possibly because of our different and peculiar paradigms.

I do apologise for suggesting the use of "transcendent", but, as I wrote:
By suggesting "transcendent", I was only trying to be helpful and move things along.
However, we still seem to be in the state of trying to have a rational discussion whilst continuing using undefined terms, so I don't think things have moved along at all really, nor would they seem likely to do so under these continuing circumstances.

The premise seems to be along the lines of "You can move beyond gamification by designing up Maslow's pyramid." (OWTTE)
I am unsure what that means, because:

I am trying to be polite about these terms here, so as not to cause offence. The point is though that they are still apparently BS (QED), which effectively makes them useless as tools for rational thinking to develop and follow a rational argument.

The premise above therefore does not seem to be able to exist in a rationally-based form. Thus you can form no rational argument out of it for discussion - and I think we have amply demonstrated that, in this thread.

So I must confess that I feel I have been unable to suggest any helpful or useful thinking for you on this subject, and I apologise for trying nontheless. I had been wanting to communicate, but I had not realised that at root we seem to fail to communicate for some reason.
I had not realised that you might have felt that I was trying to score points or justify myself, or whatever other "bad" things you may have felt I might have been doing in this discussion, and I apologise if it seemed so. Please put it down to my natural impatience rather than any feeling of antagonism or ego-gratification on my part. I had not realised that you might consider that I had been making "cheap replies" or that I had "humped on back to an unhelpful direction just when you seem to be leaving it just so you can have a last word on how much you detest buzz words.".
That sort of thing is/was never my intention. I generally chip in if I think that what I have to say could be of humour or use/help in a discussion, or - more especially - if I wish to pursue discovery of some truth in a debate.

Please note that I have not called you irrational or made an ad hominem, and that I take exception to the ad hominem of you calling me irrational, yet I refuse to drag us into the gutter with a "Tu quoque" (Latin: "you also") in response to your ad hominem. What I might think of you as a person is irrelevant to our discussion.

...life does not end at all...
-Paul Keith
Can be neither proven nor disproven, except presumably by individual experience.
Transcendence.
-IainB
Uhh...no... I'm not talking about just individual life but the impact of individual life. The things left behind by a dead person like memories, influence, contributions, legacies.

This is a good example of a failure to communicate. I had been unable to understand, from that statement of yours about life, that it might have implied so much more/different than what I had supposed.

So, if "Maybe we are talking at cross-purposes and will never be able to understand each other...", and if we are starting to call each other names or ad hominem, then - if you don't mind - I really think it would be best if I withdraw from this particular discussion. At this juncture, it ceases to be possible for me to find it enjoyable or rewarding, it seems to antagonise you, and I don't think I am able to contribute any more of use/help than the little I might have done so far.

Thankyou for some thought-provoking discussion.
Title: Re: Beyond Gamification. Designing up Maslow’s Pyramid.
Post by: Paul Keith on June 06, 2012, 07:59 AM
Sorry, I don't see it. How did it seem like the discussion was:

"You can move beyond gamification by designing up Maslow's pyramid." (OWTTE)

When did this happen???

Plus the example above wasn't a proof of failing to communicate IMO.

It was more of a proof of failing to clip quotes correctly.

You omitted and ignore all the supporting elements of ...life does not end at all... took it into isolation and therefore by replying to it in isolation, you easily misunderstood it.

How can this compare to the above where suddenly you've combined gamification with designing up Maslow's pyramid?

If you do an entire search for the posts in this thread, you'll find that this came out of nowhere. It's an entirely new context that you've seen yet cannot be substantiated by any direct quotes, clipped or not clipped.

Worse, how can you turn this back on me and say:

yet I refuse to drag us into the gutter with a "Tu quoque" (Latin: "you also") in response to your ad hominem.

When the very reason you're post is not as antagonistic is because you removed/did not include the part about how I sunk into a state of ahamkara?

I don't mind people leaving as I still haven't improved my communication skills but right now, you're not doing a neutral service. By leaving at this juncture after having raised an entirely new direction yet again out of nowhere, you're basically dragging me into the gutter by portraying me as the one who offended you by mistakenly assuming you for being antagonistic yet instead of clearing up those misconceptions, you omit them entirely and bring up a new line of statement without any indication where you ended up having this conclusion with the exception of bolding up seems.

Then you continue to spend your time both repeating what you said (after once again repeating that there's no point in discussing because we seems to come off like we're repeating ourselves) and then railing on this new context that you saw. Sir, I don't mean no offense, but just stating that you don't intend to drag us into gutter is not a keyword for a spell that won't drag us into the gutter especially when it is only you that isn't dragged beneath your last words.