I have Rightnote. Lifetime licence.i see. yes with the access requirement you are going to have a hard time finding something. I'll be interested in what you come up with.
I think I had AM-Notebook at one time.
The problem with both is that the stuff is in the programs, they're Windows only and not accessible from elsewhere. I appreciate the advantage of database based programs, which is why I have stuck with them and tired and bought so many. And I don't discount using them. But I'm considering having them only for an active use rather than stuff in general.
With files, I can use virtually any program to create them, and to modify them; I can use them on all devices, access them from the internet and never have to worry about import or export. Feels as if it is worth an experiment. Not that I would export everything immediately and do a switch. I'd just start using a new system and take stuff from older programs as I needed to work with it.
I'd have to say, just looking at the features, that AM-Notebook has come a long way since I last looked at it.-Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 04:42 PM)
One other thought I had, triggered by some zettelkasten reading, was the possibility of being more productive if I was working with fewer programs and more simply focused on files and links. Working on files, it's easy to switch to a different program for a particular feature (and back again) without disruption. Trying to do that with database programs is definitely not like that. It leads to doing one set of things in one program and another in another etc. And there's permanent feature dissatisfaction.i go through this thought process also. i don't think it would be very inefficient. It wouldn't be as streamlined as something all in one, but so what? i think it is worth trying out.
I don't know. I always regarded it as an odd and obviously inefficient approach. But now I'm not quite so sure.-Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 05:24 PM)
i have archivarius, which is great, but one thing is terrible....the text results are plain text, no pictures, and no formatting, it would be ideal if it could show the actual document the way it is.I have Archivarius too.
other indexers are not as good as archivarius and i haven't tried in a long time. some of those copernic, desktop search, x2, were ok, but slow and klunky.-superboyac (October 23, 2019, 06:05 PM)
I have done something for a while and I think app mentioned it here recently too. Obviously not exactly what you are looking for but comes closer than you might think. A local WordPress installation.Did that once. Has its plus points.-rgdot (October 23, 2019, 09:21 PM)
I remain not even slightly persuaded of the need to go full Markdown though.-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 04:50 AM)
I can see that.I remain not even slightly persuaded of the need to go full Markdown though.-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 04:50 AM)
It really depends on your usecase. I don't use strictly markdown- I use plaintext when I need to, and even todotxt.-wraith808 (October 24, 2019, 09:53 AM)
I've been reading about the zettelkasten method here last couple of days. I like it. I'd be interested in software that can do this. Sounds like a wiki of some sort.-superboyac (October 24, 2019, 11:39 AM)
I'm looking at the zettelkasten software out there:I read a comprehensive take down of the value of the Zkn3 program recently. Didn't record where. I'll see if I can find it.
ConnectedText, i remember trying this years ago, but was still in the traditional notetaker mindset. I'll give it another shot. Looks interesting
Zkn3, seems more zettelkasten specific. would give it a try. i suspect connectedtext is more polished and easier to use.-superboyac (October 24, 2019, 11:56 AM)
I read a comprehensive take down of the value of the Zkn3 program recently. Didn't record where. I'll see if I can find it.Probably this one (https://zettelkasten.de/posts/luedeckes-zettelkasten-erik-pfeiffer/)-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 05:03 PM)
As IainB says in his onenote threads, the problem with the zettl is that it doesnt include images, videos, etc. It's centered around text. And his method of using onenote to me is much nicer/easier/better for software than zettel would be.The system does include images, videos and anything else that's used. But they are resources that the cards link to. So you could have film that you were analysing. you would do a card for each thought about the film and put in a link to the film presumably noting the point in the film you were referring to (assuming it one a single point). You have your card index and you have your resources. Not the same thing.-superboyac (October 24, 2019, 06:09 PM)
Each card is for a thought, not information - information is external in the sources.OK that clears a lot up for me. Interesting. It's certainly very different than the way i currently approach notetaking now, which is to collect the actual information and store it, like an archivist.-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 06:37 PM)
It's certainly very different than the way i currently approach notetaking now, which is to collect the actual information and store it, like an archivist.Collecting information can be important. Is important.
Basically, when I use onenote, im not really using a system or method of any kind. I am just collecting notes into the interface presented to me by onenote. It may not even be very "efficient" or terribly productive. But its there when i need it.-superboyac (October 25, 2019, 01:23 PM)
Here are some tools I find very useful for storing and retrieving information in plaintext files. I suppose most are very well known to many DC members reading this thread already, but anyway...Thanks for these and the methodologies. I'm aware of most of the programs; use Everything and have always been a bit scared of the learning required for AHK. Used FARR once, but mostly prefer using the mouse; maybe I should look at it again.-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
1. put tags in the filenames of plaintext filesIsn't there a problem with filename tags in that links are broken every time you add or remove a tag?-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
2. make .txt plaintext "companion files" with tags in filename and notes inside next to non-plaintext files.So, same name as companion except .txt ?-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
3. organize files at least roughly into (sub)folders based on topic, context or life domain. Put tags in foldernames.I'm not likely to do this. I want to keep folder structures as simple as possible.-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
4. when needed tag filenames/foldernames with timestamps (YYMMDD at minimum or YYYYMMDDhhmmss) to make them more unique.Yes, I intend to do this.-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
The neat thing with unique filenames is that you can use them as "quasi hyperlinks" in plaintext. Like so: An AutoHotkey hotkey takes the current selection in the active VS Code window (or Notepad or any other plaintext editor/viewer you want), uses Everything under the hood to find the one unique matching full filepath, and then acts on it (open/run the file, open its folder in Explorer, ...). For example a file you name "food korean 191025.txt" will likely remain unique and so can be used as a short and quick quasi hyperlink.I assume this would actually work with rtf or even docx files too?-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
You can speed up 1-4 with AutoHotkey, of course :)okay, I accept the case for AHK is overwhelming :(-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
- VS Code or some other general purpose code editor.I'm afraid that I'm likely to resist using VS Code or any other code editor as much as I possibly can. The look and feel (and features) of the programs I write in is critical to creativity and productivity (and I have to be able to set them up to avoid eye strain). I like Atlantis. I quite like Jarte. I like WriteMonkey 3 (although it has occasionally hogged resources).
For powerful plaintext viewing, editing and formatting. Also for writing Markdown with preview.
The interface is more complex than for some standalone Markdown editors. But on the plus side code editors are power tools for transforming and navigating plaintext in a lot of ways that tend to come in handy sooner or later.
https://code.visualstudio.com/
Like so: An AutoHotkey hotkey takes the current selection in the active VS Code window-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
I am really very grateful for the list and explanations of best usage. It's the details of the best programs and usage tips that I have no idea about at all.Here are some tools I find very useful for storing and retrieving information in plaintext files. I suppose most are very well known to many DC members reading this thread already, but anyway...Thanks for these and the methodologies.-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 05:51 PM)
Isn't there a problem with filename tags in that links are broken every time you add or remove a tag?-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 05:54 PM)
2. make .txt plaintext "companion files" with tags in filename and notes inside next to non-plaintext files.So, same name as companion except .txt ?-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 05:10 PM)
Would this be a way of tagging the companion?-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 05:57 PM)
I suspect it is more appealing to someone who already uses code editors and writes scripts a lot anyway. But no harm in giving it a look, you might find some part of it that is a fit for you.I'll certainly look them all out. These are solutions, and I will need solutions. I think tagging is a tough one. I'm sure I can manage the greps, and I'm not sure there's an alternative approach. And it's about time I had a closer look at AHK. The quasi hyperlink is a solution to a problem I was aware would need to be tackled.-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 06:56 PM)
Having thought on it, I think that the ability to fast search for the unique string within the name obviates both the need for direct linking and having the tags outside the name. I hadn't thought of that.Isn't there a problem with filename tags in that links are broken every time you add or remove a tag?We can then in other plaintext files reliably "quasi link" to the image with the short string 20191022_181212.png .-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 05:54 PM)-Nod5 (October 25, 2019, 06:46 PM)
Glancing at this "Big German Word" ...Absence of command seems to be a requirement of the system with the aim of achieving serendipity.
- It seems your mind needs some level of innate talent to make it work, or it could collapse entirely! I don't think you can both be "surprised at what's in your notes" and at the same time have a comprehensive command of the material.-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)
- More fun things to do with file reader output : if you put a special character (not above the number key but like zz), after the "regular" part of the file name and before all your tag-y things, then you can import that directory output into Excel, and chop it up into sections and then your notes can reference the fragment of the file name.
- In reverse, if you want to share stuff on the web, and you added new tags to your file names, because now it references Cher Banb Bang for "I was Five" and Harlan Ellison's story Jefty is Five, re-run the directory reader, then (I did one in Excel) it concatenates back the cels, slaps some shell code on either side to make it a legible web page, and off you go, and your text files drove the outbound web copy.-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)
maybe You just write periodic summaries of what you were up to, and then you might get clever recalling what phase of your life it was in. There's a risk, it seems to me, of system decay.-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)
- DonationCoder! That's us! If you find you need some really strange processing of text files, it might NOT exist! So commission it!And that is a good idea!-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)
Back a few posts there was some discussion about ideas vs facts. Don't know if you've read the post on the Collector's Fallacy: https://zettelkasten.de/posts/collectors-fallacy/ I find this very true and something I fight against continually.-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)
Taking notes thoroughly means you can rely on your notes alone and rarely need to look up a detail in the original text.I rarely consult secondary sources again. If I have to do so, it means that I did not do the job right the first time.
–MK, of “Taking Note Now”
If we read without taking notes, our knowledge increases for a short time only. Once we forget what we knew, having read the text becomes worthless. You can bet that you’ll forget about the text’s information one day. It’s guaranteed. Thus, reading without taking notes is just a waste of time in the long run. It’s as if reading never happened.
It is so important to collect why the fact was interesting.... and try to relate it to other things. A jumble of other people's text bits is meaningless to me. A file system of my own thoughts continues to show it's power, again and again.-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)
Instead, use meaningful relationships (links with explanations). Some like to call it "tight" vs "loose" linking (http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2011/08/loose-links-versus-tight-links.html). With a zettel, you're trying to link things tightly, not just throw things into your garage randomly.-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)
Interesting discussion... I've responded about zettelkasten in IanB's discussion on OneNote,-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)
Random thoughts, I know, but hopefully something will prove stimulating!-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)
I've "started" a zettel several times now, with tree-based information managers, with markdown textfiles, and now with Dokuwiki.-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)
- More fun things to do with file reader output : if you put a special character (not above the number key but like zz), after the "regular" part of the file name and before all your tag-y things, then you can import that directory output into Excel, and chop it up into sections and then your notes can reference the fragment of the file name.-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)
- More fun things to do with file reader output : if you put a special character (not above the number key but like zz), after the "regular" part of the file name and before all your tag-y things, then you can import that directory output into Excel, and chop it up into sections and then your notes can reference the fragment of the file name.-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)
The idea of using special characters to distinguish the tag section and individuate tags in filenames is used by the TagSpaces application-Nod5 (October 28, 2019, 01:25 PM)
Interesting discussion... I've responded about zettelkasten in IanB's discussion on OneNote, but here are a couple of thoughts from loosely following this thread:super interesting post, kfitting, thanks.
Having loosely followed the zettelkasten idea for a few years, I believe you're correct in noting that's a little more process oriented than tool-oriented.
Back a few posts there was some discussion about ideas vs facts. Don't know if you've read the post on the Collector's Fallacy: https://zettelkasten.de/posts/collectors-fallacy/ I find this very true and something I fight against continually. It is so important to collect why the fact was interesting.... and try to relate it to other things. A jumble of other people's text bits is meaningless to me. A file system of my own thoughts continues to show it's power, again and again.
I've "started" a zettel several times now, with tree-based information managers, with markdown textfiles, and now with Dokuwiki. My biggest piece of advice: just start capturing information, attempting to always write why you found the information important. Eventually, YOUR OWN system will come into being and things will flow more smoothly.
Random thoughts, I know, but hopefully something will prove stimulating!
Aside: the tagging discussion (and this entire discussion in general) reminds me of a debate about tags vs links. Here is a critique of tags:
"Tags are vague. They’re a very primitive way of spelling out how things relate to each other. A tag on a news article says “this article has something to do with this concept or thing”. But what exactly? A tag doesn’t tell you whether an article is a critique of a person, an interview with a person or whether it just mentions that person in passing. A tag doesn’t even tell you if the reference to Samuel Adams is about the person or about the kind of beer (which is why we so desperately need vocabularies). A tag can’t tell the difference between an event that merely took place at the local café and an event that the aforementioned pub actually organized." http://debrouwere.org/2010/04/07/tags-dont-cut-it/
Instead, use meaningful relationships (links with explanations). Some like to call it "tight" vs "loose" linking (http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2011/08/loose-links-versus-tight-links.html). With a zettel, you're trying to link things tightly, not just throw things into your garage randomly.-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)
and now with Dokuwiki.you ever considered ConnectedText (https://www.connectedtext.com/index.php)?-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)
This sounds like the problem of hoarding, only with digital/text things. I struggle with this also, and i see the value in being able to break away from it.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)
i am interested in NOT being a knowledge hoarder. I want to be a practical, productive individual.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:48 AM)
I'd rather have actual growth in knowledge in myself than be comforted by all the notes i physically have. hmmm.....I think that some of the key zettel principles for this are:--superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)
thanks for this, this is very thought provoking for me, and helpful.This sounds like the problem of hoarding, only with digital/text things. I struggle with this also, and i see the value in being able to break away from it.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)i am interested in NOT being a knowledge hoarder. I want to be a practical, productive individual.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:48 AM)I'd rather have actual growth in knowledge in myself than be comforted by all the notes i physically have. hmmm.....I think that some of the key zettel principles for this are:--superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)
- That you have a single integrated workflow, that you become expert in using
- That notes have to sustain repeated iterative processing, potentially with new notes for new thoughts. If information/thoughts/notes aren't worth this degree of processing, then they don't deserve to be in the zettel.
- The processing should produce growth in your understanding, but will also duplicate that understanding in the zettel
- Which means that you can go away from that part of the zettel for ten years and still pick up from where you left off, long after you will have forgotten most of the detail of what you had learned
The problem I see in what you are suggesting is that you will be following multiple workflows.
I can't see why you couldn't use ConnectedText, OneNote or The Journal for all your writing and a zettel-Dormouse (October 29, 2019, 02:12 PM)
Conclusions
As far as a comfortable writing environment goes InfoQube gets my vote.
if this method requires me revisiting notes, and rewriting partsI don't think it requires rewriting notes. A revision would be the result of a new thought. A new thought requires a new note.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 05:40 PM)
nice article that concludes Infoqube is the best. Nice Pierre, well deserved!
https://pauljmiller.wordpress.com/tag/connectedtext/-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 05:50 PM)
That you have a single integrated workflow, that you become expert in usingafter 20+ years of using notetaking software, one thing i am absolutely certain of is that i am not doing it in a good way as far as productivity. and what the zettel talks about, like the progression of an idea, and being able to continue where you left off, etc...this is all very much what i want.-Dormouse (October 29, 2019, 02:12 PM)-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 05:25 PM)
Monday, April 19, 2010from the TakingNoteNow blog (http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2010/04/one-fact-one-card.html)
One Fact, One Card ...
Beatrice Webb wrote in the Appendix of My Apprenticeship of 1926 that "The method of writing one fact on one card enables the scientific worker to break up his subject-matter, so as to isolate and examine at his leisure its various component parts, and to recombine them in new and experimental groupings in order to discover which sequences of events have a causal significance."
She claimed: "To put it paradoxically, by exercising your reason on the separate facts displayed, in an appropriate way, on hundreds, perhaps thousands, of separate pieces of paper, you may discover which of a series of hypotheses best explains the processes underlying the rise, growth, change or decay of a given social institution, or the character of the actions and reactions of different elements of a given social environment."
This advice has lost none of its saliency, even though computer programs allow you to create "cards" or notes of great length. To restrict yourself to one detail, fact, item, idea, or thought is not crippling but enabling. There is great virtue in breaking things down into their constituent parts. Luhmann spoke in this regard of "reduction with a view of building complexity."
Posted by MK at 1:40 PM
onenote has the features necessary to do it, but overall, i dont think it is very conducive to it. more of a GUI thing than anything else.
Journal, it may do it, but I would not use the journal for notetaking. i like it for writing big projects like screenplays or books.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 05:25 PM)
ok...i think i know a critical feature that would help me choose a software.
versioning...
which software provides the best versioning history?
if this method requires me revisiting notes, and rewriting parts, I am going to want to know what i am redoing and rewriting, so good versioning and easy to use/see would be important to me. I think connectedtext has it, but maybe the others do not.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 05:40 PM)
Using versioning software requires discipline. And there are many too choose from. Git is the most popular tool among coders. But if you aren't a coder, all the features it has is overkill to the n-th degree. Besides that, you have several free online places that allow you to store public repositories (everyone has access to your repository), while private repositories means you need to fork over cash on a monthly or yearly basis.
Does that not sound appealing? There is GitLab. Well, their Community Edition, to be more precise. This you could host yourself in the house where you live for nada. But again, it is intended to be used with Git and might be overwhelming to set up. Oh, and it doesn't run on Windows. And as Docker appears to be in financial trouble, building a dependence on their container software to make it more or less work in Windows might not be the best of ideas. So you'll need a (virtual) Linux or Mac computer.-Shades (October 29, 2019, 08:35 PM)
i am interested in NOT being a knowledge hoarder.I think that some of the key zettel principles for this are:--superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)The problem I see in what you are suggesting is that you will be following multiple workflows.
- That you have a single integrated workflow, that you become expert in using
- That notes have to sustain repeated iterative processing, potentially with new notes for new thoughts. If information/thoughts/notes aren't worth this degree of processing, then they don't deserve to be in the zettel.
-Dormouse (October 29, 2019, 02:12 PM)
- More fun things to do with file reader output : if you put a special character (not above the number key but like zz), after the "regular" part of the file name and before all your tag-y things, then you can import that directory output into Excel, and chop it up into sections and then your notes can reference the fragment of the file name.-TaoPhoenix (October 26, 2019, 06:23 PM)
The idea of using special characters to distinguish the tag section and individuate tags in filenames is used by the TagSpaces application, https://docs.tagspaces.org/tagging#tagging-based-on-filenames . I remember trying it very long ago but might go and have another look at it now, as it seems to be actively developed.-Nod5 (October 28, 2019, 01:25 PM)
I lost a lot of the work I'd done organizing with it when I had to switch, so that was a bummer. Just something to watch out for.-wraith808 (October 30, 2019, 11:05 AM)
superboyac, yes it is about digital hoarding... and yes dormouse, it is time-consuming and hard. For myself, I treat the zettel information as theory, something to strive for and capable of producing insights into my own process and information-saving ability. But I dont strive for 100% compliance, or anything close.very helpful again thanks.
I have topic notes which can be just lists of links to internet articles, links to my other main type of page (sources). Source pages are so I can either: save the article, save the bits of the article I like, or pull the article apart because I'm trying to understand it. The topics allow me to collect different sources. Sometimes my topics have been refined and rewritten, sometimes they are basic.
My point is that the hard part of zettel is also the most rewarding. The topics that I spend the most time on... are the ones I go back to the most. The sources that I take the most time to understand are the ones that have impacted me the most. But I do allow for different kinds of processing.
Superboyac: regarding why I didnt choose connectedtext. I almost did. Then I found the zettelkasten.de site and went on a text-only binge for a year and a half or so. This was great because I saved money. When I found dokuwiki, it added just the right amount of frills, cheap, and I could access it from anywhere. My biggest problems with connectedtext right now are the cost and the fact that it is not maintained. Also, I feel like starting minimal allows you build your process without all the frills. Add the frills as you find the use for them, not just because they are there.
Once again, use the zettel idea to help you understand what you're looking to do. Just like GTD... if you try to follow it religiously... you're following it religiously. But it has some incredibly insightful ways of thinking about things. And again... feel free to mix and match. I copy entire articles... I summarize them... just depends on how much time I have and how much I want to understand the article.-kfitting (October 30, 2019, 04:57 AM)
ok i am not really understanding completely then.if this method requires me revisiting notes, and rewriting partsI don't think it requires rewriting notes. A revision would be the result of a new thought. A new thought requires a new note.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 05:40 PM)
Additions to notes, yes, - especially in the way of new links.
Better than versioning really because you have a history of why you have changed your idea.
Of course, I might be wrong about this. But, for me, that's the logic derived from the principles.-Dormouse (October 29, 2019, 05:55 PM)
So Ive started practicing this...i am writing an outline for a screenplay.
so i created the note, a zettel, if you will.
now, i am going to work on the note and finish it. so now what? i start typing all over the note, however it makes sense.
i am done for now.
some time passes
now i am ready, to work on that outline a little more.
do i continue working in the note i created previously? or do i start a new note? shouldn't i keep working in the first note?-superboyac (October 30, 2019, 05:43 PM)
Turn your notes into a rough draft . Don’t simply copy your notes into a manuscript . Translate them into something coherent and embed them into the context of your argument while you build your argument out of the notes at the same time . Detect holes in your argument , fill them or change your argument . 8 . Edit and proofread your manuscript .
but then, i found this:
https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/226/renes-sublimeless-zettelkasten
now this seems cool!!
this is similar to what the mac software "The Archive" which people consider a brilliant zettel software. so i'm trying this open source windows version and it's FANTASTIC! so i'll be trying this out for a while. it's beautiful looking, it is true zettel and files are all text files, and it's fast, and its free and open source, so we can modify it!-kfitting (October 30, 2019, 04:57 AM)
I lost a lot of the work I'd done organizing with it when I had to switch, so that was a bummer. Just something to watch out for.-wraith808 (October 30, 2019, 11:05 AM)
If it saves tags in the filename, what got lost?-Dormouse (October 30, 2019, 12:44 PM)
these are great suggestions. i am going to try that first one and then the others perhaps. looks fantastic.but then, i found this:
https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/226/renes-sublimeless-zettelkasten
now this seems cool!!
this is similar to what the mac software "The Archive" which people consider a brilliant zettel software. so i'm trying this open source windows version and it's FANTASTIC! so i'll be trying this out for a while. it's beautiful looking, it is true zettel and files are all text files, and it's fast, and its free and open source, so we can modify it!-kfitting (October 30, 2019, 04:57 AM)
I have not gone fully down the zettkasten rabbit hole, but I do find myself circling around to it often. I have seen a number of people compare this to https://www.zettlr.com/
As I understand it it uses a graph database, where each item is a container- so rather than emulating a "card" for each thought/note/idea, it is a container... which makes it more friendly for storing other types of media. It is opensource with Windows, Mac and Linux versions.
Similar programs I have been intending to look at are https://mindforger.sourceforge.io/ (I believe windows and Linux- though originally just Linux) and also https://github.com/zadam/trilium which is windows.
I personally really like it when there is a way to easily link to email. I can generate an email link, but would rather it was done automatically.-sphere (October 30, 2019, 07:17 PM)
I stopped using tagspaces. Many times I have a blank screen; there's something in their electron application that fails at times- at least for me. I even reinstalled and the problem was there. I rebooted, tried again, and it worked for a bit, but stopped again after a short time. I lost a lot of the work I'd done organizing with it when I had to switch, so that was a bummer. Just something to watch out for.Thanks. Good reminder also that a kind of system lock-in can happen even when all the data is plaintext and local.-wraith808 (October 30, 2019, 11:05 AM)
In my searches for windows software for zettel
[...] infoqube [...] connectedtext [...] sublime text editor [...] Sublimeless zettelkasten-superboyac (October 30, 2019, 02:56 PM)
Well, if I had another client that would actually use that format, then I suppose nothing would have been. But moving to something else that doesn't do the same... Not vendor locked is not the same thing as usable in another platform. There's also the matter of the time spent color coding the types of files/folders.I get that.-wraith808 (October 30, 2019, 10:24 PM)
One thing a standard would settle is the identifier format. sublimeless_zk (https://github.com/renerocksai/sublimeless_zk) seem to use YYYMMDDhhmmss timestamps, which I like. But they have an issue tracker request (https://github.com/renerocksai/sublimeless_zk/issues/110) for shorter format using other base systems for the identifier. Interesting idea!-Nod5 (October 31, 2019, 04:40 AM)
ill check out that book, i believe it was the one you guys were referring to earlier in the thread.I hesitate to recommend it. The useful stuff is scattered throughout the book. Hard work to mine it.-superboyac (October 30, 2019, 10:38 PM)
Well, if I had another client that would actually use that format, then I suppose nothing would have been. But moving to something else that doesn't do the same... Not vendor locked is not the same thing as usable in another platform. There's also the matter of the time spent color coding the types of files/folders.I get that.-wraith808 (October 30, 2019, 10:24 PM)
I restricted myself to the filename approach because I could access them by file search on any platform. I'm trying to avoid dependence on any particular software. Haven't reached the tagging stage yet, so I'm free to change my mind. SetTags is the only other one I know that uses filenames, though I expected there would be others. Can't say I've taken to TagSpaces or SetTags. I did consider simply using Bulk Rename and manage the tags manually.-Dormouse (October 31, 2019, 05:24 AM)
I have topic notes which can be just lists of links to internet articles, links to my other main type of page (sources). Source pages are so I can either: save the article, save the bits of the article I like, or pull the article apart because I'm trying to understand it. The topics allow me to collect different sources. Sometimes my topics have been refined and rewritten, sometimes they are basic.-kfitting (October 30, 2019, 04:57 AM)
I'm using folders purely as stages or components of the zettel. So I have one for sources. One for resources (stuff I have written myself that's a resource for the writing part - might be a setting). Another for the writing. And then the Notes/zettel itself. One might be about the purpose of a scene. Another might be about the style of dialogue and why. Each new thought has a new note.yes, this is helpful. I need some tips on how to begin this.
ok, i'm not going to read the book. lol. i just want to quickly learn how the system works.I know. I did too. And I tried. But it took a lot of time because the book spread the good stuff in lots of other stuff that wasn't relevant to me.-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 01:38 PM)
my initial instinct is to have all the notes in one folder, and let the linking and other content stuff link to the other notes. but i also like what you are doing with categorizations. not sure what the categories should be though.
so i just read some more about zettel, and it seems that using a single zettel for everything is recommended. i'll try that. and my real practice will be to stick to the one topic, one idea.-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 01:38 PM)
i heard that the zettel inventor would also write a lot of books. so he must use the zettel to organize his thoughts, but i doubt he was writing the book in the zettel.-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 01:38 PM)
i do not yet know how that will turn out as far as a creative writing exerciseWon't be easy because you will have to work it out for yourself. Luhmann didn't do it and neither do the vast majority of people with zettelkasten.-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 01:38 PM)
im not sure about this...like, this is the intense analysis of the ideas for the script?-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 01:38 PM)
I'm a little hung up on the one thought one note aspect.-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 01:38 PM)
ok...how am i supposed to name the files?
the files seem to start with a 14-digit timestamp, and then what?
20191031103943 (topic number one).md-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 04:38 PM)
the thing I'm thinking about now that i read about, is this "entry point" where luuhrman would have an entry point note that links to the rest of that topic, but its a single place that gets you started on it. can anyone provide examples of this?-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 04:19 PM)
The first type of links are those on notes that are giving you the overview of a topic . These are notes directly referred to from the index and usually used as an entry point into a topic that has already developed to such a degree that an overview is needed or at least becomes helpful . On a note like this , you can collect links to other relevant notes to this topic or question , preferably with a short indication of what to find on these notes ( one or two words or a short sentence is sufficient ) . This kind of note helps to structure thoughts and can be seen as an in - between step towards the development of a manuscript . Above all , they help orientate oneself within the slip - box . You will know when you need to write one .-Ahrens, Sönke. How to Take Smart Notes: One Simple Technique to Boost Writing, Learning and Thinking – for Students, Academics and Nonfiction Book Writers (pp. 112-113)
You will know when you need to write one .Ah! that does make sense. ok. moving on!
so i don't need to add the note title in my actual filename? that would be nice, id like to avoid doing that and just let the timestamp cover the filename portion.ok...how am i supposed to name the files?
the files seem to start with a 14-digit timestamp, and then what?
20191031103943 (topic number one).md-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 04:38 PM)
Is that the program?
Luhmann just increased the number by one each time, switching to letters when he forked.
Date/time stamp is just laziness; it's what I'm doing.
Since the date/time stamp is unique, you shouldn't need any other name. But it might be useful to give you some idea what's in the note.-Dormouse (October 31, 2019, 05:28 PM)
so i don't need to add the note title in my actual filename? that would be nice, id like to avoid doing that and just let the timestamp cover the filename portion.-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 07:27 PM)
btw, zettlr is very slick. I really like it.-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 04:19 PM)
I have not gone fully down the zettkasten rabbit hole, but I do find myself circling around to it often. I have seen a number of people compare this to https://www.zettlr.com/
As I understand it it uses a graph database, where each item is a container- so rather than emulating a "card" for each thought/note/idea, it is a container... which makes it more friendly for storing other types of media. It is opensource with Windows, Mac and Linux versions.
Similar programs I have been intending to look at are https://mindforger.sourceforge.io/ (I believe windows and Linux- though originally just Linux) and also https://github.com/zadam/trilium which is windows.
I personally really like it when there is a way to easily link to email. I can generate an email link, but would rather it was done automatically.
btw, zettlr is very slick. I really like it.-superboyac (October 31, 2019, 04:19 PM)
Yeah, I like its user interface. It kinda reminds me of doogiePIM but it is opensource. Out of curiosity, did you look at the others?I have not gone fully down the zettkasten rabbit hole, but I do find myself circling around to it often. I have seen a number of people compare this to https://www.zettlr.com/
As I understand it it uses a graph database, where each item is a container- so rather than emulating a "card" for each thought/note/idea, it is a container... which makes it more friendly for storing other types of media. It is opensource with Windows, Mac and Linux versions.-sphere (October 31, 2019, 11:46 PM)
Yeah, I like its user interface. It kinda reminds me of doogiePIM but it is opensource. Out of curiosity, did you look at the others?Yes, I looked at all the links posted here. Zettlr seemed to be the most mature, slickest, and most applicable for zettling lol.-sphere (October 31, 2019, 11:46 PM)
I saw a mention somewhere that it does text folding, butt I saw no commands for that.yes it does text folding with the headers. very nice.
Seems to me that it accommodates a zettelkasten approach but doesn't structure it, so you would still be on your own for organisation.-Dormouse (November 01, 2019, 07:03 AM)
This order per subject area on a top level is reflected in the first number assigned to the card followed by a comma (first collection) or slash (second collection) that separates it from the rest of the number given each card
In 1960–1961, Luhmann spent a year at the Harvard School of Public Administration in Cambridge, MA (USA), where he attended lectures by Talcott Parsons, the leading sociologist in the field of systems theory at the time. There are no documents in the literary estate substantiating the claim that this visit was the trigger to start a new collection of notes, but the chronological sequence seems obvious.-Niklas Luhmann’s Card Index: The Fabrication of Serendipity by Johannes F.K. Schmidt
| - | parent(s) | - |
| other links | NOTE | source(s) |
| - | child(ren) | - |
there is a reference link on nearly every (first collection) or nearly every second note (second collection) on average.
Three types of linking can be distinguished:
a)References in the context of a larger structural outline: When beginning a major line of thought Luhmann sometimes noted on the first card several of the aspects to be addressed and marked them by a capital letter that referred to a card (or set of consecutive cards) that was numbered accordingly and placed at least in relative proximity to the card containing the outline. This structure comes closest to resembling the outline of an article or the table of contents of a book and therefore doesn’t really use the potentials of the collection as a web of notes.
b)Collective references: At the beginning of a section devoted to a specific subject area, one can often find a card that refers to a number of other cards in the collection that have some connection with the subject or concept addressed in that section. A card of this kind can list up to 25 references and will typically specify the respective subject or concept in addition to the number. These references can indicate cards that are related by subject matter and in close proximity or to cards that are far apart in other sections of the collection, the latter being the normal case.
c)Single references: At a particular place in a normal note Luhmann often made a reference to another card in the collection that was also relevant to the special argument in question; in most cases the referred card is located at an entirely different place in the file, frequently in the context of a completely different discussion or subject.-Niklas Luhmann’s Card Index: The Fabrication of Serendipity by Johannes F.K. Schmidt
since creative writing involves fiction and creating a fake world with all the logic and characters....i feel like for something like that, i need to make a separate folder. it cant be part of my overall single zettel that i use for actual reality and academic type knowledge. so i can have on zettel for everything in reality, which will be the big, main database. but for, say, writing screenplays, i need to use a separate sandbox because i dont need those ideas linking to real world ideas.-superboyac (November 03, 2019, 03:04 PM)
one zettel/folder for everything in real life
separate zettels for creative writing projects
so i might be leaning towards a multi-folder system like dormouse, but maybe structured my own way. we'll see.-superboyac (November 03, 2019, 03:04 PM)
ok some more updates....
this is the developer of zettlr, and a nice video explaining some of the methodology and what dormouse talked about regarding luhman's original system and how technology affects it.
https://www.youtube..../watch?v=c5Tst3-zcWI-superboyac (November 03, 2019, 03:04 PM)
no, i think that's the jist of it. What i got out of it was that a note can be anything, and the only things to remember are the ID of the note (which doesn't matter since its digital), tags link subjects together, and hard-links are the "zettl" specific links.ok some more updates....
this is the developer of zettlr, and a nice video explaining some of the methodology and what dormouse talked about regarding luhman's original system and how technology affects it.
https://www.youtube..../watch?v=c5Tst3-zcWI-superboyac (November 03, 2019, 03:04 PM)
I watched that video, and came away with the fact that it seems to be a wiki with tags, where the name of the file is the ID. Is there something more than that I'm missing?-wraith808 (November 03, 2019, 07:04 PM)
ok dormouse, i still kind of want to copy your system as my first attempt....this is what i've gathered:
sources
resources
actual zettl
writing
temp
annotated-superboyac (November 03, 2019, 09:02 PM)
temp, this is where you put notes before they are processed with all the proper links and maybe even the kind of writing in your own words that you are supposed to do with zettl.
annoted, not sure....this is where you place notes from the temp folder, kind of a staging area, where you add the links right before moving to the zettl?-superboyac (November 03, 2019, 09:02 PM)
btw, what kind of file naming scheme do you use?-superboyac (November 03, 2019, 09:02 PM)
The ID RegEx
Zettlr uses regular expressions internally to filter out the ID of a file. It looks for that pattern, and if it finds a string that matches this pattern, it assumes that as the ID of the file. Please note that the first match in a file will be assumed the ID, never the last! This means: If you choose to use only four digits as your ID, the regular expression would also match years inside your file. As Zettlr simply takes the first ID, make sure that the very first thing in your file is the ID of that file.
Does it mean that it uses the ID to find the file, but doesn't display it?I just discovered the answer. When you have a note file in zettlr, it is looking for that ID pattern to generate the internal db ID. So usually it is created automatically when the note is created. However, you can override that and type something else for the file name, like just words, and then there is no id number. When that happens, zettlr doesn't know or have an ID for that. So what the instruction is saying is to have that 14-digit number somewhere, either the filename or the first thing in the actual file content, so that it detects the ID. I just tried it...what happens is if i remove the number from the note AND the filename, the ID of the note disappears in zettlr. it doesn't know. when i add the ID to the note, first line, and leave the filename still only words, zettlr gets the ID instantly. so it is looking to match that pattern.-Dormouse (November 04, 2019, 12:08 PM)
However, you can override that and type something else for the file name, like just words, and then there is no id number. When that happens, zettlr doesn't know or have an ID for that.-superboyac (November 04, 2019, 12:43 PM)
i have the ID as the first line of the actual note, but not in the filename. this gets detected right away. so i like this. I don't have to have the ID in the filename itself, so the filename can be just the title, which is nice.-superboyac (November 04, 2019, 12:43 PM)
i had a quote i wanted to address.I'm pretty sure Dormouse wrote above about first writing, and then breaking down that writing into notes. (Sorry, I didnt look for the post...) What I like about the system as described is that it encourages you to write rather than just hoard (I do that, or at least I'm slow to do any writing).
I start the note, put the quote. then i proceed to write all my thoughts on this. It was a lot, lol. way more than lurman would put on a note card. I feel im doing it wrong. I think im doing more than one thought. maybe multiple thoughts. so mentally, i still feel i am not getting it, lol.-superboyac (November 05, 2019, 02:48 PM)
I feel im doing it wrong. I think im doing more than one thought. maybe multiple thoughts. so mentally, i still feel i am not getting it, lol.I don't know that you're doing anything wrong, except being too wordy. It is hard.-superboyac (November 05, 2019, 02:48 PM)
I'm pretty sure Dormouse wrote above about first writing, and then breaking down that writing into notes.Yes.-tomos (November 05, 2019, 04:08 PM)
Ah! yes that makes sense. I can see how this can drastically help not only my thinking, but effective writing. very cool. I am rather excited about this.I feel im doing it wrong. I think im doing more than one thought. maybe multiple thoughts. so mentally, i still feel i am not getting it, lol.I don't know that you're doing anything wrong, except being too wordy. It is hard.-superboyac (November 05, 2019, 02:48 PM)
- It will probably be easier when you are more used to it.
- It will probably be easier when you already have an extensive network and are starting with an idea about the thoughts and where they would fit.
- But part of the difficulty, I suspect, is making your thoughts tight and precise. I'm not sure how much easier that can get because it does involve intense thinking.
My guess is that what you have done,so far, is what I have been calling first stage notes. I think you need a gap before going over them (iirc, Ahrens said that Luhmann went through them in the evening). At that point you need to split them into their constituent parts and then write new notes carefully, one thought to a note. There may be a sequence to these thoughts (in which case there's a parent-child sequence) and they will all link to your first note.
When I look at posts on zettelkasten.de, I can't avoid the suspicion that most of them aren't doing it right. Too much linking, too many notes, not enough thinking. Luhmann's main (second) zettelkasten was started 1963 and stopped in 1997: that's 34 years. It has 67,000 cards in one, admittedly wide ranging, area of interest. Less than 2000 cards a year. Assuming 250 working days, he averaged 8 cards a day. Eight thoughts that he decided to record. If he was doing a lot of other things, then maybe one thought every half hour. The thinking isn't easy, achieving the precision isn't easy. There's disentangling the thoughts from each other. And composing the words.-Dormouse (November 05, 2019, 04:37 PM)
very cool. I am rather excited about this.-superboyac (November 05, 2019, 05:05 PM)
I'll be happy to show samples in five years time/donationcoder_alarm: set-for-time_5y-Dormouse (November 06, 2019, 04:37 PM)
/donationcoder_alarm: set-for-time_5y-superboyac (November 06, 2019, 06:25 PM)
I'm just going to start this. I can feel myself going through paralysis-by-analysis. I promised myself to move on when that happens.-superboyac (November 07, 2019, 11:56 AM)
One thought per note is one of those things that I strive for, but rarely achieve. When you create a note, you rarely know what specific thing you are writing about. That comes in time and as you re-analyze a topic you'll start to see where different facets come in. Also, the archive should reflect your mind: topics you care about will be detailed and have one thought per note. Topics you dont care about will be generic and more nebulous. PHD's have specific knowledge... why do we think we can achieve such specificity for every one of our notes?-kfitting (November 08, 2019, 04:59 AM)
I'm not sure I fully understand 'refactoring' in this context -- I see it defined as changing/improving code without changing its external behavior.I didn't appreciate the specificity of the coding reference. Simply used the same word assuming a mathematical origin as in factor again. I've reworded my reference to it. Thanks.-tomos (November 08, 2019, 04:28 PM)
Tomos: that's the definition. In this context, I often start a note, then as i think more about the topic and revisit it I'll see different facets within what I've written. So I reorganize the information, splitting some into new notes that are more specific, but none of the original information is lost.thanks both, I just wasn't really familiar with the word tbh
The point is that you don't have get the one thought per note right the first time.-kfitting (November 09, 2019, 05:10 AM)
thanks both, I just wasn't really familiar with the word tbhWell, being a pedant, I wasn't comfortable with this usage either, but I tried what Dorothy did in the Wizard of Oz - she clicked her heels together three times and said "refactor" each time, and all became clear in the morning when she woke up - and it did for me too!-tomos (November 09, 2019, 06:12 AM)
“Must a name mean something?” Alice asks Humpty Dumpty, only to get this answer: “When I use a word… it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.” - Through the Looking Glass(1871), by Lewis Carroll.
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).-Dormouse (November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM)
The database is local. But a database nevertheless. I don't know if WM2 is the same.WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).-Dormouse (November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM)
It is? I've never used it that way. I always work on local files. This is the first that I've heard of that.-wraith808 (November 10, 2019, 04:21 PM)
Your documents are stored in database file in the default local application data directory.
Windows: c:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\Writemonkey 3\writemonkey3_sheets
OSX: /Users/[user]/Library/Application Support/Writemonkey 3/writemonkey3_sheets
Linux: /var/local/Writemonkey 3/writemonkey3_sheets
Use Open Folder with Database file from Command palette to open folder containing database files.
Working with text files
Writemonkey 3.0.10 (August 2019) has basic support for text files. Documents stored in database can additionally also be stored as regular text files.
Bind existing document to a text file
Right click existing document name in document pane and select Save as file & bind to document from a context menu. You'll be presented with a regular Save As dialog, where you can choose a target directory and a file name. (WM will suggest the file name based on current document name, but you can change it to anything you want.)
there must be an option to open local filesIt will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.-wraith808 (November 10, 2019, 11:44 PM)
there must be an option to open local filesIt will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.-wraith808 (November 10, 2019, 11:44 PM)-Dormouse (November 11, 2019, 03:17 AM)
I may have to recant. I can't actually find a way to open a file without it being bound into the database.And I guess that was my point. It's an option, not a requirement.there must be an option to open local filesIt will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.-wraith808 (November 10, 2019, 11:44 PM)-Dormouse (November 11, 2019, 03:17 AM)-wraith808 (November 11, 2019, 02:52 PM)
Text files can also be dragged into repository. New item with file's text is created but there is no link between the file and repository item.I tried this and it was just a text copy in the repository.
thanks, that was a helpful example. man. i am way too single minded, or literal.
There could be a photo of a sheep in a field.
A very small child might think nice furry animal.
A slightly older child might think Shaun!
A butcher might think ready soon.
A farmer might think selenium deficiency? (mostly noticing the lush grass).
A thought is a single focus for what was in the mind. More foci simply means extra notes.
There's no reason to push yourself to have all the thoughts you might possibly have unless doing that is your purpose.
Revisiting the note or topic and adding new notes with new thoughts when there's a reason to is sufficient.-Dormouse (November 08, 2019, 11:35 AM)
I may have to recant. I can't actually find a way to open a file without it being bound into the database.And I guess that was my point. It's an option, not a requirement.there must be an option to open local filesIt will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.-wraith808 (November 10, 2019, 11:44 PM)-Dormouse (November 11, 2019, 03:17 AM)-wraith808 (November 11, 2019, 02:52 PM)
You can unbind the file - but that simply discards the link.
You can always edit the bound file with another program - but Writemonkey will give you an alert dialog when you try to open it again.Text files can also be dragged into repository. New item with file's text is created but there is no link between the file and repository item.I tried this and it was just a text copy in the repository.
So, afaics, Writemonkey works only on what is in its database. Open and save a file might look like a local file operation, but it isn't: it's importing to the database, binding the file and then saving the bound copy from the database.-Dormouse (November 12, 2019, 04:41 AM)
STANDARD AND CLEAN TEXT FORMAT
For maximum portability your work is stored in standard text files. Writemonkey is fully UTF-8 compatible and will recognize virtually all international characters. Supports other encoding standards ‒ Unicode, ANSII …
I find it interesting that plain text / markdown solutions like Zettlr keep the files in a database.what do you mean by this? zettlr keeps the files just regular text files in whatever folder you like. you just open the file or folder. it has a database maybe for the program itself, but the files are all text files. the only thing the program seems to do is look for the ID somewhere in the filename or actual file itself. Is that what you are thinking too?
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).
When I look at WM3 it seems to have all the features required for a zettelkasten, but I've never seen it mentioned in that context. Though it's very rarely mentioned in lists of markdown editors either.
I'm noticing that different types of notes may have different and predictable structures. Vacillating between using templates and autotext insert.-Dormouse (November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM)
What do you mean a bound file? It's a text file on disk. How is that bound?-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:05 PM)
What do you mean a bound file? It's a text file on disk. How is that bound?-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:05 PM)
Their terminology, not mine.
My interpretation is that it's simply synchronising the database copy with the file copy. Doesn't impact editing the file using other programs.
On the basis of your video, my guess is that both versions do this in similar ways, although the details of the implementation vary. But know nothing of V2 since I started with V3.
The advantage of the method is that you have two copies of the file - one in the database, one as the file. Each copy can be worked on separately, but will be synchronised when WriteMonkey is active unless you turn the linking off.-Dormouse (November 13, 2019, 12:27 PM)
STANDARD AND CLEAN TEXT FORMAT
For maximum portability your work is stored in standard text files. Writemonkey is fully UTF-8 compatible and will recognize virtually all international characters. Supports other encoding standards ‒ Unicode, ANSII …
I find it interesting that plain text / markdown solutions like Zettlr keep the files in a database.what do you mean by this? zettlr keeps the files just regular text files in whatever folder you like. you just open the file or folder. it has a database maybe for the program itself, but the files are all text files. the only thing the program seems to do is look for the ID somewhere in the filename or actual file itself. Is that what you are thinking too?
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).
When I look at WM3 it seems to have all the features required for a zettelkasten, but I've never seen it mentioned in that context. Though it's very rarely mentioned in lists of markdown editors either.
I'm noticing that different types of notes may have different and predictable structures. Vacillating between using templates and autotext insert.-Dormouse (November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM)-superboyac (November 13, 2019, 12:15 PM)
From the WM2 documentationThey can make the same claim in WM3. It's a plain text database.STANDARD AND CLEAN TEXT FORMAT
For maximum portability your work is stored in standard text files. Writemonkey is fully UTF-8 compatible and will recognize virtually all international characters. Supports other encoding standards ‒ Unicode, ANSII …-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:05 PM)
What do you mean a bound file? It's a text file on disk. How is that bound?-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:05 PM)
Their terminology, not mine.
My interpretation is that it's simply synchronising the database copy with the file copy. Doesn't impact editing the file using other programs.
On the basis of your video, my guess is that both versions do this in similar ways, although the details of the implementation vary. But know nothing of V2 since I started with V3.
The advantage of the method is that you have two copies of the file - one in the database, one as the file. Each copy can be worked on separately, but will be synchronised when WriteMonkey is active unless you turn the linking off.-Dormouse (November 13, 2019, 12:27 PM)
This is not how it's working in WM2. Check my post that I updated, i.e. from http://www.writemonkey.com/features.phpSTANDARD AND CLEAN TEXT FORMAT
For maximum portability your work is stored in standard text files. Writemonkey is fully UTF-8 compatible and will recognize virtually all international characters. Supports other encoding standards ‒ Unicode, ANSII …
I really don't like this direction, personally.
...
I think we're finally getting on the same page- a lot had to do with the fact that I'm using WM2. WM3 actually *does* store its files in a database located in (on Windows) c:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\Writemonkey 3\writemonkey3_sheets. It can sync with a local file, but it defaults to just storing everything there.
Which to me, is counterintuitive for a 'plain text' writing solution, and creates issues like this one:
https://github.com/writemonkey/wm3/issues/161
Store locally, operate on that file. It doesn't matter where the file is, if you just store it as plain text.-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:31 PM)
zettlr keeps the files just regular text files in whatever folder you like. you just open the file or folder. it has a database maybe for the program itself, but the files are all text files. the only thing the program seems to do is look for the ID somewhere in the filename or actual file itself. Is that what you are thinking too?-superboyac (November 13, 2019, 12:15 PM)
I find it interesting that plain text / markdown solutions like Zettlr keep the files in a database.
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).-Dormouse (November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM)
From the WM2 documentationThey can make the same claim in WM3. It's a plain text database.STANDARD AND CLEAN TEXT FORMAT
For maximum portability your work is stored in standard text files. Writemonkey is fully UTF-8 compatible and will recognize virtually all international characters. Supports other encoding standards ‒ Unicode, ANSII …-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 12:05 PM)-Dormouse (November 13, 2019, 01:20 PM)
However you do it, there are potential problems unless you simply want standalone files and rely on file management tools. But many people want the advantages that can be got from a database solution: eg text search, linking, tagging.
The WM3 file binding feature means that you can have both at the same time.
And the database can be read as text.-Dormouse (November 13, 2019, 02:18 PM)
WM2 doesn't involve the use of anything other than the files. There are no supporting files stored on your system. That's the difference.-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 02:49 PM)
How about some sort of plain text type wiki system?-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 03:45 PM)
They don't have to be one text document. In fact, the one that I linked uses separate documents.How about some sort of plain text type wiki system?-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 03:45 PM)
I've never really liked wikis. I tend to think of them as a database type solution using a single long text document. But they do tick all the required boxes.-Dormouse (November 13, 2019, 05:18 PM)
WM2 doesn't involve the use of anything other than the files. There are no supporting files stored on your system. That's the difference.-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 02:49 PM)
Where are the repository and backups and history kept if it's a files only program?-Dormouse (November 13, 2019, 04:09 PM)
WM2 has a toggle that you can switch to using a repository. But it's not inbuilt into the way that it handles files by default in WM2 as it is in WM3. I never used that feature, nor was it forced on me.-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 05:24 PM)
I don't see anything that would beat my current text-only (markdown) setup : neovim + git + Nextcloud-jeromg (November 14, 2019, 07:46 AM)
I have grown weary of consumer geeks mistaking the tool for the work, and even more weary of the bizarro apple fan world in which notes apps are somehow second only to task managers for the tech mode du jour.which was followed by going on about The Archive!-https://appademic.tech/zettelkasten-thoughtful-plain-text-note-taking/
WM2 has a toggle that you can switch to using a repository. But it's not inbuilt into the way that it handles files by default in WM2 as it is in WM3. I never used that feature, nor was it forced on me.-wraith808 (November 13, 2019, 05:24 PM)
The vast majority of even the most textish programs for writers work with a database. Keeps easy access to fragments, versions, chapters and scenes, characters, research etc. Even MS Word has effectively switched to that with 365 or OneDrive. For those that store separate files, it is generally easier to think of those as backups.
The WM developer seems to have developed WM to support his own writing & says he has done all his writing in WM3 for years. There were programming reasons for the switch to WM3, but I suspect that the change to database + bound files was because it worked much better for him as a writer. I'd concur. It makes it much more attractive to me for substantial use.-Dormouse (November 14, 2019, 06:43 AM)
I still have WM2, and updates don't really matter to me as long as it works.-wraith808 (November 14, 2019, 04:16 PM)
I like using an external previewer for my markdown, and have it so that prowritingaid looks at the output for that preview, all spread out over my computers and monitors. This doesn't allow that.-wraith808 (November 14, 2019, 04:16 PM)
Couldn't bound files be used that way?-Dormouse (November 14, 2019, 06:16 PM)
I'll see how it works out.-wraith808 (November 14, 2019, 11:22 PM)
Makes sense. I'll be in a similar boat if I move major projects in and start deliberately using the database features. Wary of over-trusting the binding/syncing feature. I'd've been on to these details sooner if it hadn't been such a big effort understanding the UI.regarding the zettlr tagging system and the db....i get that there's a database, but let's say zettlr is no longer around, can't you just use the formatting around tags for another program to identify them as tags? like, if {} is a tag, then when you migrate, just say detect all those {} as tags. wouldn't that be sufficient? I feel like zettlr is hitting the nail on all these points.-Dormouse (November 15, 2019, 03:09 AM)
regarding the zettlr tagging system and the db....i get that there's a database, but let's say zettlr is no longer around, can't you just use the formatting around tags for another program to identify them as tags?-superboyac (November 15, 2019, 03:26 PM)
The big advantage of having them in the file name is search speed. But changing the name breaks file links. And text search should be fast enough with indices. ? Another advantage is that it is, relatively, easy to add or remove tags.
Having them in the file itself requires a solution to add and remove content. Possible, but it's an extra step and an extra program. Unless the tags given remain forever unchanging.
Windows metadata is a possibility. But it's very specific and not robust - many changes will break it.
Sidecar files are another option. But they will need to be kept together and add extra complexity.
It is no wonder than the database solutions are so prevalent.
Of course, there's no reason to confine myself to one method :)
I could put the initial tags in the file and in the filename and use a database program for more ephemeral tags. No fiddling. Cross-platform to an extent. And probably I could produce and save a list of all the files with such tags and add it as a separate note. :) :)-internal monologue
Sidecar files are another option. But they will need to be kept together and add extra complexity.
It is no wonder than the database solutions are so prevalent.
Of course, there's no reason to confine myself to one method :)
I could put the initial tags in the file and in the filename and use a database program for more ephemeral tags. No fiddling. Cross-platform to an extent. And probably I could produce and save a list of all the files with such tags and add it as a separate note. :) :)-internal monologue-Dormouse (November 16, 2019, 07:10 AM)
For virtually all purposes I much prefer rtf to plain text.
Colours, fonts, tables, bullets etc all make a difference to my speed of apprehension. I will switch colour, or background colour, as part of my editing. It makes rtf much more practical for me than plain text. The ability to insert images is very helpful too.-Dormouse (October 28, 2019, 01:11 PM)
That notes have to sustain repeated iterative processing, potentially with new notes for new thoughts. If information/thoughts/notes aren't worth this degree of processing, then they don't deserve to be in the zettel.-Dormouse (October 29, 2019, 02:12 PM)
I also have a Temp folder - this is for notes I haven't processed yet - for instance they might be named, but not had the unique identifier added. Often they will be what Ahrens describes as 'fleeting notes' (ie temporary) - highlights or clips with very short comments from me. The next stage is to go through those and give them more thought; at that point my methodology is simply to add the deeper reflection on to the note and put them into the Annotated folder.
When I go through the Annotated folder, I will try to develop my ideas based on the combination of all the annotations. One idea, one note. At that point, I move the lot into the zettel/Notes folder, add the tags, and add the links (have to do it this way round or the links will be broken before I have even started).-Dormouse (October 31, 2019, 03:15 PM)
One project I tried was to build a "Super text processor" that had all these custom things it could do. So for example if your "main copy" is in RTF, the Super Processor could have native built in "create pure text shadow copy" which you could then parse, get something out of it, and then you paste it back into your RTF copy. Then instead of saving entire files as text, because you only need it for 10 minutes, it's still in the main Super Processor, then it goes away. My text file chess example is right down this alley, though there's gaming examples from my Ludum Dare adventures too.-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 02:33 PM)
The need to read selectively is emphasised repeatedly.
I can't help thinking that it's an attempt to make a virtue of a necessity because there's no way this process can be followed with very fast extensive reading.
I'm sure it will get quicker and easier with practice!???-Dormouse (November 03, 2019, 03:55 AM)
if I start with a song in mp3, sometimes I fiddle with the pitch and tempo or both. So the file name itself has some of the adjustment settings compared to the original, to indicate how it was created. It's not a text tag, it's instructions. How does that fit into your system?-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:01 PM)
I think it fits fine. The Temp folder is intended purely as a waystation. Possibly i should have called it Pending. If there needs to be another stage, then I would stick in another folder - Pending2 say. That's what you're doing. You start with something, think about it and record what you have done.
The Temp folder really does have to work as temporary storage thought. Can't afford to clog up. So you would probably need to set up a Not Very Interesting Archive folder for your Rose Garden Presidential strategy. And you could tag it with a No Entry sign.-Dormouse (November 16, 2019, 03:21 PM)
This feels like my fundamental conceptual clash!
A chunk of time can be spent either deep refining existing notes, or you can ... read new things, which automatically create new ideas!-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:06 PM)
How do you decide NOT to read something?!-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:06 PM)
But this is also interesting to fast and dirty trim DOWN "not very interesting", which might be close to that problem I've wrestled with and explored in this thread, where things like my sound editing knowledge needs to be refined and always on tap, medium things sit there *by definition* they survived the "Not Interesting Culling", *so there had to be a reason why*, THEN when something like today kicks an item into high gear, THEN it gets promoted!
Fascinating! Because as simple as Drag into the Wasteland, you can cull some 30 items out of 50 out of the bimonthly batches, and then very erratically, that serves the purpose of that "you forgot it was there" part of the zettel that I struggled with.-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:30 PM)
Besides dealing with that unique identifier, the Precise Date in Filename automatically tells you how OLD the note is-TaoPhoenix (November 16, 2019, 03:34 PM)
Probably relevant (apologies if already mentioned) -- Armando's description of how he uses tag in filenames,-tomos (November 16, 2019, 04:58 PM)
I'm going to do is convert them all out of their respective programs (evernote, IQ, etc.) and then bring them into some temporary area for zettlr. THen, I'll proceed to curating these to those single notes and thoughts. Let's see if I can hang with that.
I'm taking my prewritten/compiled writings, and breaking it into single thoughts?-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 03:11 PM)
boy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr. You can open items using "Quicklook". They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like. Pretty damn nice.-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 03:20 PM)
looooooooooolboy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr. You can open items using "Quicklook". They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like. Pretty damn nice.-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 03:20 PM)
You can do this with separate files too ;D-Dormouse (November 18, 2019, 04:07 PM)
i see why you have that sources resources folders.I'm going to do is convert them all out of their respective programs (evernote, IQ, etc.) and then bring them into some temporary area for zettlr. THen, I'll proceed to curating these to those single notes and thoughts. Let's see if I can hang with that.
I'm taking my prewritten/compiled writings, and breaking it into single thoughts?-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 03:11 PM)
I think you are right.
But also potentially wrong.
If I've taken an excerpt from a publication, my first notes may cover more than one thought (because the source is mixing a few things). The second stage will be in single, separated thoughts. But I still keep the earlier ones.
BUT there's a real question of efficiency and sustainability. There's no point spending time chopping a carrot unless you have an idea what you are going to do with the pieces; if you don't know, leave the carrot as it is. Create connections so that you can go back and find it to chop when you know what you want to do with it.
I think there's a permanent tension between the reflecting and chopping on the one side and working comfortably and efficiently on the other. And some of that is resolved by not spending extra time going through things that are not of much immediate interest.
I'm trying to get into the swing by writing a little article. This makes it easier to make a decision about what's worth working on and what isn't.-Dormouse (November 18, 2019, 03:54 PM)
I do admit that the database solutions are likely to be both easier and faster than separate files. Including, I'm sure, viewing multiple notes. I can feel the temptation.looooooooooolYou can do this with separate files too ;Dboy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr. You can open items using "Quicklook". They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like. Pretty damn nice.-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 03:20 PM)-Dormouse (November 18, 2019, 04:07 PM)-superboyac (November 18, 2019, 04:56 PM)
Dormouse, a mouse with a door fetish.Note content:
(link to door fetish note)-superboyac (November 27, 2019, 02:03 PM)
I think a question is a perfectly OK method to focus the notes. Though not the only way. And questions don't necessarily lead to a focused thought: what is the best way from Riga (Latvia) to Sydney (Australia) should never have a simple answer - a set of directions should emerge after consideration of a wide number of issues. Of course, the question could be Note 1. the issues could be notes 2 - n and the set of directions could be linked to them all.thanks, helpful again. so there's atomicity (which is all the standalone single thoughts/notes) and then the developed thought, which could be like the molecule that pulls all those pieces together. I am close to getting there. It has taken me some serious effort to practice making thoughts concise, but the exercise is proving to be very productive.
While I think atomicity is important for linking, I also feel that the developed thought needs to be long and developed enough to warrant an independent existence.
Ironically, and off-topic, I've found a use for OneNote. Can be structured to help conceptually, and easy to have very tiny and often temporary notes, store data and work as a shared international enterprise. Once it is complete, everything could be put into separate documents, but, as a WIP. OneNote makes it easier. And, on topic, one of the issues was tiny temporary thoughts which wouldn't warrant existence as a separate document and which shouldn't be consolidated until there's some clarity about the final form.-Dormouse (December 02, 2019, 06:43 PM)
thanks, helpful again. so there's atomicity (which is all the standalone single thoughts/notes) and then the developed thought, which could be like the molecule that pulls all those pieces together.Atomicity has to apply to all notes. Linking requires atomicity else all notes will relate to most notes.-superboyac (December 04, 2019, 01:42 PM)
If there's a note in the zettel, it I regard it as part of that process not an independent file; otherwise not.think this sentence got mangled (I *think* I know what you mean -- but not sure...)-Dormouse (December 16, 2019, 05:32 AM)
I'd rewritten it but tidied insufficiently.If there's a note in the zettel, it I regard it as part of that process not an independent file; otherwise not.think this sentence got mangled (I *think* I know what you mean -- but not sure...)-Dormouse (December 16, 2019, 05:32 AM)-tomos (December 16, 2019, 03:47 PM)
I’ve noticed that most discussion of zettelkasten seems to be about the perfection of the process with little interest in workflow or efficiency. Apart from a frequent attraction to database options that make IDs and linking quicker. Maybe that can be justified if the zettelkasten itself is the desired endpoint. Otherwise I’d expect anyone interested in working productively to maximise effectiveness. Which means expending time and effort commensurate with the gains.What initially attracted me to this idea is the prolific output of that guy, regarding writing books. So I think it's ok that the process is rigorous and somewhat difficult, because the time spent on that fine-tuning and curating seems to be what makes the putting together of a book or something so much faster. So i think the efficiency is in the ultimate output of these notes. The process is definitely not efficient. But i experienced decades of very efficient note gathering and archiving....and it has only resulted in a great big hodge podge of notes and ideas. If i want to do anything with all that, I will STILL have to spend a lot of time going over and curating, etc. So that's why I'm going to give this zettel a try.
Taking the typical academic, reading a journal in his area of interest. Let’s say an experimental scientist..
If there’s a paper very closely aligned to her/his (I was tempted to write his - are most zettelkastenites male, I wonder?) own work, I’d expect detailed notes on the question, the design and methodology, the stats, results and interpretation. With a number of rounds of reconsideration, comparison with other experiments, own work etc. Probably 20-50 notes in all. With a lot of time and thinking going in to it. And all at or close to the time of the original reading.
The rest of the journal might only warrant one note. Looking at topics covered, paradigms and stats used etc. Useful for considering changing trends in the field. A bit of a reminder of what’s in it. But not immediately useful, so undeserving of more time.
Seems to me that this approach is essential if the zettelkasten is to be a useful tool rather than an albatross hanging around the users neck.-Dormouse (December 17, 2019, 10:24 AM)
Dormouse, regarding your sources...I still don't quite understand. If you have pdf's of articles or even textbooks, you put the actual pdf file in that source directory? and then you annontate it? i was almost thinking you copied the text into a text file, and then annotated....but that would be crazy.Digital copies of articles, books etc simply live in a Publications file.-superboyac (December 17, 2019, 04:46 PM)
What initially attracted me to this idea is the prolific output of that guy, regarding writing books. So I think it's ok that the process is rigorous and somewhat difficult, because the time spent on that fine-tuning and curating seems to be what makes the putting together of a book or something so much faster. So i think the efficiency is in the ultimate output of these notes. The process is definitely not efficient.I believe that Luhmann's process was efficient.-superboyac (December 17, 2019, 04:46 PM)
I've decided to regularly import snippets from Evernote to The Journal. Seems simple to do, and The Journal has convenient document save options. And i can set it up to suit my eyes which is a big advantage over native Evernote client where I'm stuck with white text on black background - functional, but tiring after a while.Because there doesn’t seem an adequate manual, I’ve been having to try things out on The Journal, so I accept that I might have missed some of the features I want.-Dormouse (December 15, 2019, 09:19 AM)
are you talking about seeing a bunch of notes at once? like full notes in several windows or boxes on the screen? If so, yes, that would be an awesome feature.Yes. Google Keep does it of course.-superboyac (December 18, 2019, 03:52 PM)
So far, the biggest irritation for a program that is a diary equivalent is, despite hierarchical organisation, the Category and Calendar mode seems to works as fixed folders rather than virtual folders or filters. Evernote has this one nailed.Two solutions currently.
I’ve not found a convenient way to see all notes from a given chunk of days.-Dormouse (December 15, 2019, 09:19 AM)
No I won't. Still too complicated for my needs. Also insufficient.I'll probably use Microsoft ToDo-Dormouse (December 19, 2019, 09:34 AM)
In my mind, the zettelkasten works like having my own room in the Bodleian, with my current activities laid out on a large table in the middle, surrounded by small bookcases with the books needed for immediate references.somtimes it's hard to understand the system when reading about the details, this a very helpful description
If I want more, or am moving on, then I can wander round the main library collecting books and other materials as I need. And if I need to do a detailed trawl into less familiar materials, I can ask the librarians to bring me stuff that might be relevant from the stacks.
Concentric circles. The more intensely worked material on the table in the middle, with all my notes; linked books and journals nearby. Associated material a little further away and stuff I might conceivably available after a little search.-Dormouse (December 22, 2019, 10:53 AM)
somtimes it's hard to understand the system when reading about the details, this a very helpful descriptionThe pure zettelkasten is just the room, mainly the table.-tomos (December 22, 2019, 11:29 AM)
I've provisionally decided on my initial tagging system. Tags in file name and body of file. Any tagging during use will go into the Tagspaces sidecar.In the end I decided to be much simpler. Short 2 or 3 letter tags to make typing easier, and I'll type many in directly. Tags and sub-tags. No maximum or minimum number. Should be intuitive and obvious (to me).
Seven tag fields.-Dormouse (November 18, 2019, 03:14 PM)
For me a helpful article because it starts simple and rules out what doesnt work in most systems; (flounders a bit in the middle imo); and only towards the end really describes the zettelkasten system as they see it.Thanks. I agree that it's quite a good article, although I think it incorporates the weaknesses I personally perceive in the zettelkasten movement.-tomos (January 04, 2020, 07:11 PM)
Start using AsciiDoc with the AsciiDocFX editor. That is similar to MarkDown text format files. The AsciiDocFX editor comes with an automatic (real-time) preview, so it very easy to see how your content will look like, while you are typing it. Which should cover most, if not all, of your needs to alter the layout afterwards. But if you still find a need to do so, you can alter the default CSS style sheet that editors like AsciiDocFX use to render the content as preview.-Shades (January 06, 2020, 06:22 PM)
Text files like MarkDown and AsciiDoc have also the advantage that these are very easy to search through by any and all types of search engine software (local or remote). These documents are also easy to store in any database of your choosing or to serve up as (internal) web content, if you so desire. With RTF and other document types created by word processing software, such options are very limited in the best case scenarios to non-existent.
Depending on RTF and/or other document types, will bite you in the long run, in ways you'll never expected.-Shades (January 06, 2020, 06:22 PM)
There is also a beta available for https://roamresearch.com/-Nod5 (February 28, 2020, 10:12 AM)
A new option to take a look at: https://casual-effects.com/markdeep/Thanks for these. Very different, but each interesting in their own way.-wraith808 (February 27, 2020, 10:32 PM)
garh! too many cool software!The bit I found fascinating about Roam was the description of it automatically triggering someone to do Luhmann style in depth notes without any overt instruction or direction. i doubt I'll use the program myself because it seems to be at the opposite end of my search for long term safety and system stability, and isn't multi-platform. But it does seem to have a neat set of ideas.-superboyac (March 03, 2020, 12:20 PM)
ok safe to say, i haven't gotten very far with this experiment.I've not got far either - have been too busy tied up with other things. But my organisation is building and I have a system that I can return to whenever I am doing related stuff - so that seems to be working. But zettelkasten does seem to require discipline and preferably regularity. I struggle with the first, but the second is never likely to be possible.
I am still using onenote for everything, mostly because it syncs to my phone and i have no discipline yet around organizing my brain farts.-superboyac (March 03, 2020, 12:20 PM)
also, i just finished an outline to a new screenplay, and it was all developed using multiple screenwriting software essentially...scrivener, outline4d. not sure how zettl would fit in. still like the idea.Congratulations on completing the outline.-superboyac (March 03, 2020, 12:20 PM)
I do the same with Evernote, though I have a process that can take it to separate documents (EN>The Journal>separate documents).Well this is interesting....why do you go to the Journal as a middleman? I use the Journal also, so I am wondering.-Dormouse (March 04, 2020, 07:22 PM)
Well this is interesting....why do you go to the Journal as a middleman? I use the Journal also, so I am wondering.It imports Evernote export files and exports into individual documents (rtf, txt, docx, pdf, or html).-superboyac (March 05, 2020, 12:11 PM)
Since deciding to switch to using a tablet more, I've been checking out other programs. Diaro and Diarium especially. One of them will import enex files and export into individual documents, which would bypass The Journal completely.Well this is interesting....why do you go to the Journal as a middleman? I use the Journal also, so I am wondering.It imports Evernote export files and exports into individual documents (rtf, txt, docx, pdf, or html).-superboyac (March 05, 2020, 12:11 PM)-Dormouse (March 05, 2020, 03:42 PM)
That's the one. Some concerns because it's Chinese. Only had a quick look so far and the features aren't well explained. Looks as if a lot of writing could be done in it without taking it anywhere else, but would still need to come back to a PC in the end. I can work with the colour scheme and the typewriter greys all lines except the one you're working on, which is especially useful on a tablet.Looked at it further. The developer appears to work for Microsoft.-Dormouse (April 01, 2020, 03:21 PM)
And I like WriteMonkey on the PC.-Dormouse (April 08, 2020, 06:33 PM)
It is called WavemakerThanks. I hadn't heard of this one. Cross-platform, so very interesting to me.-sphere (April 28, 2020, 10:32 PM)
It seems like one should be able to more easily "play" with the cardsI agree.-sphere (April 29, 2020, 06:27 PM)
Will comment further when I've checked the Windows version.Looks as if a new, substantially revised, version of Wavemaker should be out soon, maybe June. So I'll defer any detailed look until then. Scrivener 3 should surely be out by then too.-Dormouse (April 30, 2020, 07:47 PM)
Zettelkasten vs PARAThanks. Interesting reads.-panzer (May 09, 2020, 05:36 PM)
Just a look at a few quotes where Rizvi explains his move from zettelkasten to PARA. I think it contains a number of common misconceptions of the zettelkasten system.
I love reading. But retaining what I read tends to be a challenge. I usually walk away from a book feeling good but with only a faint idea of what was in there.
Herein is I think the core of his problem. Zettelkasten is specifically not about retaining the content of what has been read - it's about retaining thoughts about the content.-Dormouse (May 10, 2020, 03:34 PM)
Its core idea is to create atomic notes, where each note is about exactly one topic (not more than a few paragraphs tops)
By definition, something that takes two paragraphs is more than one thought. Two paragraphs will also contain associations that make the note cumbersome to use.-Dormouse (May 10, 2020, 03:34 PM)
If you take a lot of notes, the stream of incoming notes can quickly leave you overwhelmed.
The idea was being selective, both in what was read and the notes taken. They had to be worthwhile and had to be separate. There shouldn't be an overwhelming stream.-Dormouse (May 10, 2020, 03:34 PM)
...I started by looking at writers' sites. That was a depressing experience. Simple storyboards and a host of self-inflicted hamster wheels. ....-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 06:15 AM)
I agree. I interpret his problem as arising from a misperception of zettelkasten. I wasn't surprised at the misperception because it seems to reflect common beliefs.
So I have read Rizvi's post and I am familiar with PARA... I had some comments- Which might be misplaced because I have not followed this thread entirely. This person strikes me as someone who is also on a search for the perfect way to organize their notes and learn. I can respect that.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
As I mentioned, I used something similar to zettlkasten.It certainly sounds like a very similar process.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
There is an older program called Writers's BlocksThat's an interesting one. I know I've heard of it but had never probed further. I'm not sure I'd look much further than $149.99 with $119 to upgrade. Google Keep can be used in a very similar way (feeding into Docs) and is free and works on all devices. And Scrivener 3 offers more functionality at a much lower.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
Another program that comes to mind is AZZcardfile https://www.azzcardfile.com/I'm not sure about the index card analogy. It looks just like an outliner. Am I wrong?-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
I sometimes want to capture concepts in my notes. Which can be as many as 4 paragraphs to explain:)Luhmann would just say you should split them into separate thoughts. But really that's simply to aid the flexibility and specificity of links - if you don't need that there's no point.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
I find the easiest way to limit what I am taking notes on is by focusing on what I am aiming to produce. However, this often means I need to go back and revisit a resource- if I later on I need to produce something different.I think Luhmann probably only made notes with publication in mind. That explains the emphasis on perfecting the prose and his repeating sections in a number of publications.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
I am curious if you looked at liquid Story Binder?Oh yes. I remember struggling with it over a decade ago. Feature rich but one of the least integrated programs I have ever used. I don't think it ever attained drag and drop.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:36 AM)
Another program that comes to mind is AZZcardfile https://www.azzcardfile.com/I'm not sure about the index card analogy. It looks just like an outliner. Am I wrong?-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
Certainly outliners were my main tool for actually writing for a long time.-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 12:29 PM)
I am curious if you looked at liquid Story Binder?Oh yes. I remember struggling with it over a decade ago. Feature rich but one of the least integrated programs I have ever used. I don't think it ever attained drag and drop.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:36 AM)
I don't think it's been updated for a decade or so. He took down the forum years ago.
I have licence somewhere but wouldn't recommend it to anyone today when there are much better options. I hadn't come across Writers Cafe until a few years ago. Similar vintage, hasn't been updated for years, fewer features but you can see that it actually functions well as a working tool.-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 01:13 PM)
I agree, though I have not read much on his system. The aim of one's work is pretty important. So yeah publication.... My guess is that his system was also bolstered by a general mastery of the subject and material.I find the easiest way to limit what I am taking notes on is by focusing on what I am aiming to produce. However, this often means I need to go back and revisit a resource- if I later on I need to produce something different.I think Luhmann probably only made notes with publication in mind. That explains the emphasis on perfecting the prose and his repeating sections in a number of publications.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
And you can only have the thoughts you have at the time. Reading anything again is likely to produce different thoughts.-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 01:03 PM)
I also cannot use a system like trello as I am not in control of the data.I haven't checked, but I think you can set Trello up so that it only holds links to data you hold on your computer. That gives you control of your data - but you would need to be careful about what you put on the cards.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)
The aim of one's work is pretty important. So yeah publication.... My guess is that his system was also bolstered by a general mastery of the subject and material.I'm sure.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 01:48 PM)
I want to control what stuff is local and what is on the net. I want to control access. I want to be able to use my stuff on Linux, Android, iOS. Maybe even Mac. I want to be able to work on all my devices. I don't want my workflows constantly disrupted by software updates or bugs.It just about does this.-Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 02:21 PM)
I appreciate the advantage of database based programs, which is why I have stuck with them and tried and bought so many. And I don't discount using them. But I'm considering having them only for an active use rather than stuff in general.Probably does tick this. Everything in files and documents. Trello is just an active working bit. But it is very core.
With files, I can use virtually any program to create them, and to modify them; I can use them on all devices, access them from the internet and never have to worry about import or export.-Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 04:42 PM)
One other thought I had, triggered by some zettelkasten reading, was the possibility of being more productive if I was working with fewer programs and more simply focused on files and links. Working on files, it's easy to switch to a different program for a particular feature (and back again) without disruption. Trying to do that with database programs is definitely not like that. It leads to doing one set of things in one program and another in another etc. And there's permanent feature dissatisfaction.Does tick this one.-Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 05:24 PM)
I remain not even slightly persuaded of the need to go full Markdown though.-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 04:50 AM)
I feel as if I might have stumbled on to a very slippery slope and am gathering speed, with Markdown the next bump in the road, and no clear idea of an end zone.And so it came to pass.-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 03:57 PM)
my view of zettelkasten is that it is a workflow with a process that aids remembering and thinking. Index cards are incredibly flexible.I think it does this too.
I recognise a number of key concepts:
Atomicity. One thing, free standing.
Linking. I appreciate the types of links: direct (card-to-card), positional. Also that cards can be removed and mixed and used with a group of other cards and then replaced exactly where they came from.-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 05:03 PM)
Each card is for a thought, not information - information is external in the sources.And definitely offers this.-Dormouse (October 24, 2019, 06:37 PM)
I can see that his system meant that he collected his thoughts when he was reading in a format that made future thinking and use easier. When he was working things out, he played with his cards, making new ones when he had new thoughts. And when he came to write something up, he just went through the selected cards and wrote them out. Simples.And this.-
Dormouse link=topic=48938.msg433261#msg433261 date=1572036464
I want to keep folder structures as simple as possible.That's entirely possible.-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 06:02 PM)
Initial system plan (file based & text, not necessarily zettelkasten).Redacted.
Two top level folders – General and Local. Identically named subfolders.
General to be available to other devices through Dropbox or equivalent. Local not.
Next level:
Thoughts (as in zettel, because I can see that it’s a good idea)
Sources (including facts I record or material I devise myself)
Writing (any output using material in the first two). To include an In Progress folder (I’d intend to use this to temporarily copy files I’m using, and anything used to help organise my thoughts.
Temp (for new documents that may still need tagging/renaming/allocating).-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 06:39 PM)
For me it's all about workflow. My understanding of the zettelkasten process produces high easy output that will allow me to keep my eye on the ball all the time (and should be effective whether it is really zettelkasten or not). That will mean quickly producing and saving new documents. I think everything else can be done later as a batch process, but, if not, it has to be something I can do without thought because otherwise the workflow gain has gone.The Trello system is super good for workflow.-Dormouse (October 25, 2019, 07:22 PM)
Luhmann went into an office and did his academic stuff - I do many things (and quite a lot of quick switching) and I can't see why the system would not work for anything that requires thinking. Creative writing, building a garage, organising holidays. One input system is so much easier than working out where everything should go.Absolutely. Trello system does this.-Dormouse (October 27, 2019, 06:14 AM)
I think that some of the key zettel principles for this are:-Trello system should work well for this.
That you have a single integrated workflow, that you become expert in using
That notes have to sustain repeated iterative processing, potentially with new notes for new thoughts. If information/thoughts/notes aren't worth this degree of processing, then they don't deserve to be in the zettel.
The processing should produce growth in your understanding, but will also duplicate that understanding in the zettel
Which means that you can go away from that part of the zettel for ten years and still pick up from where you left off, long after you will have forgotten most of the detail of what you had learned-Dormouse (October 29, 2019, 02:12 PM)
I intend to put everything in - creative, practical, academic - and I cover many fields. My potential productivity gains come from having one system for everything.Trello should do this particularly well.-Dormouse (November 16, 2019, 07:10 AM)
I've not decided what to do about snippets.
The defining feature of a snippet is that it is short. And individual snippets are disparate and unconnected.
It could be a brief description
An interesting word usage
An interesting fact
A nice phrase
Ideas
Overheard conversation
It could be something I've written myself or have read.-Dormouse (December 11, 2019, 09:14 PM)
I'm not happy with my webclip and snippets system.This is what ultimately broke the pure documents approach. Trello should handle this well. Something much easier done in a database system.-Dormouse (December 13, 2019, 04:57 PM)
One of the things that I have noticed in this process is that the user interface suiting me is much more important than features. There's a minimum feature set, but otherwise it is the user interface all the way.And the visual approach of Trello suits me well.-Dormouse (December 15, 2019, 10:03 AM)
Trello, for example, will probably go even though it's a good personal fit.Strange how quickly things change.-Dormouse (December 19, 2019, 09:34 AM)
Paradoxically I can envision the possibility of using Evernote more not less. It's quite good at merging notes for saving into documents.No longer need to merge notes.-Dormouse (December 19, 2019, 09:34 AM)
In my mind, the zettelkasten works like having my own room in the Bodleian, with my current activities laid out on a large table in the middle, surrounded by small bookcases with the books needed for immediate references.Should work well. Tags will be manual, but I'd started tending in that direction anyway as it seemed less effortful. Many options for document search.
If I want more, or am moving on, then I can wander round the main library collecting books and other materials as I need. And if I need to do a detailed trawl into less familiar materials, I can ask the librarians to bring me stuff that might be relevant from the stacks.-Dormouse (December 22, 2019, 10:53 AM)
Two things struck me that could be enhancements to a zettelkasten program/process for some people for some usages.I think even this should be possible with a variety options.
Coloured or labelled links like spider diagrams or mind maps.
A limitation is that it imposes a consistency in the use of the concepts behind the links.
Doesn't suit my approach but would really help some.
Tiny notes attached to other notes.
I use stickies attached to documents, but the method is irrelevant.
These mostly arise from subconscious thinking, or something read in passing, rather than deliberate cogitation. Small thoughts, nothing complicated, so if I'm developing a character it might be 'Douglas Firbrae' or 'red hair'; I'm not going to actively think about it at the time - probably actively working on something else - but I don't want to lose the idea and I need it to be where I need it when I do actively work on the topic.-Dormouse (December 29, 2019, 05:48 PM)
No system copes well with independent small thoughts and small notes. Database systems work best (The Journal is okay). I simply combine them to create documents to put into the archive. Time will tell whether this is effective. I think it will work where the combination is on a single topic, but thoughts aren’t always like that.And the Trello system should cope fine.-Dormouse (January 04, 2020, 05:52 AM)
I did an evaluation of the extent to which this system meets my needs as expressed in the thread above and it feels positive. Very long post, so I've hidden in a spolier.I haven't read your long-post spoiler yet, but just wanted to say this has been a very entertaining thread. And if you ever publish something for the general public Dormouse, let us know, because what you've written here has always been a pleasure to read.-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 04:12 PM)
Diarium... how do you find it? Does it not lock you in?No lock in. You can export entries for a date range to text or word. Including tags etc.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 11:07 PM)
Thank you!I did an evaluation of the extent to which this system meets my needs as expressed in the thread above and it feels positive. Very long post, so I've hidden in a spolier.I haven't read your long-post spoiler yet, but just wanted to say this has been a very entertaining thread. And if you ever publish something for the general public Dormouse, let us know, because what you've written here has always been a pleasure to read.-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 04:12 PM)-tomos (May 11, 2020, 05:00 PM)
And OneNote can have many writers blocks on a page.There is an older program called Writers's BlocksGoogle Keep can be used in a very similar way (feeding into Docs) and is free and works on all devices.-sphere (May 11, 2020, 10:22 AM)-Dormouse (May 11, 2020, 12:22 PM)
But I've no shortage of old routers with USB connections, and the router not having an Internet connection is probably an advantage.-Dormouse (May 14, 2020, 05:32 AM)
But I've no shortage of old routers with USB connections, and the router not having an Internet connection is probably an advantage.-Dormouse (May 14, 2020, 05:32 AM)
Watch out with that. It is very easy to create a "double NAT" problem in your network when using old(er) routers in your network. While you may not notice connection issues immediately, it won't take take long before you'll encounter vague issues, on which you'll spend hours troubleshooting and not to mention visits to the hairdresser for fixing the hair you pulled out during those troubleshooting sessions.-Shades (May 14, 2020, 12:08 PM)
I am really curious about how to contend with hard links these systems require ... and it worked, UNTILL it didn'tI worry about this too.-sphere (May 14, 2020, 01:34 PM)
We just added dark mode to the iPhone version. The Windows version doesn't support dark mode yet.-conceptworld (May 15, 2020, 03:04 AM)
Hi Dormouse,
I am the creator of Notezilla. We do have an Android and iPhone version. We just added dark mode to the iPhone version. The Windows version doesn't support dark mode yet. But we are planning to add it in next major version. Let me know if you need any other help.
Regards,
Gautam Jain
https://www.conceptworld.com/Notezilla-conceptworld (May 15, 2020, 03:04 AM)
By any chance have you looked at any of the nextcloud sync offerings. joplin? Carnet looks like it has alot of promise. I like that you can record audio notes/memos. Much of the functionality of google keep is sloted for the future.Carnet does look good but seems to be a Keep equivalent on Nextcloud.-sphere (May 25, 2020, 12:45 PM)
joplin?Yes, I've looked at Joplin. Quite liked it - which is better than most. But I've decided that Markdown is a very bad thing for people like me, which rather takes away its purpose.-sphere (May 25, 2020, 12:45 PM)
I've decided that Markdown is a very bad thing for people like meMostly.-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 05:10 AM)
I do realise that I need to explain my thinking - and it has taken quite a lot of thought as well as trying it out in many different apps - rather than just making a singularly bald statement. I considered giving it a thread on its own, but the issues are part of the fabric of this thread and so it is probably best here.I've decided that Markdown is a very bad thing for people like meMostly.-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 05:10 AM)
As presently incarnated.-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 06:36 AM)
Zettelkasten + LaTeX + VS Code = Productivity++ ?:That was an interesting read.
https://levelup.gitconnected.com/zettelkasten-latex-vs-code-productivity-a7deb650608e-panzer (May 26, 2020, 01:43 PM)
WYSIWYG was much-loved but not so easy to achieve. Home users loved it, using mice and GUIs.... but programmers not so much. Possibly because they knew what it might hide. And they were keyboard warriors with masses of memorised shortcuts. Which saved them time as their hands never needed to leave the keyboard. Most journos too; early newspaper systems weren't great at GUI.-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 01:49 PM)
Personally, I just write text. Bits of formatting added later. If needed... I don't care about document formats at this point and txt is fine.Actually, I momentarily forgot the complete truth. I sometimes use italics and prefer to write them as I first type.-Dormouse (May 26, 2020, 05:05 PM)
AsciiDocMentioning this has done me a great service. Used it as a search term on Google Play. No Asciidoc but new choices in Markdown editors. Commonmark. Seems to be far more configurable than the others.-Shades (May 26, 2020, 08:22 PM)
might be OK if I use text files and turn line numbersOK so long as I use no commands, even italics. Using them seems to switch it to commonmark mode even if it later saves the file as txt. Makes sense as txt doesn't support italics so it does leave me looking ideally for an editable 'preview' mode.-Dormouse (May 27, 2020, 12:19 AM)
AsciiDocHas preview + edit and edit panel options. Someone suggested adding preview alone. I'm tempted to suggest making preview editable, which would solve most of my issues.-Shades (May 26, 2020, 08:22 PM)-Dormouse (May 27, 2020, 12:19 AM)
Markdown is a plain text formatting syntax aimed at making writing for the internet easier.That fits with the way I see it, and there it succeeds. I'd use it for that myself with no qualms.
Zettelkasten-like system used by Andy Matuschak:Thank you
https://notes.andyma...3ViqN3hh3SmrKzjQxWAr-panzer (May 27, 2020, 07:47 AM)
I'm not sure about document structuring. What I do see is that the cursor position on the preview would have to be fed back to the hidden markdown document. The commands and text would always only work on the markdown document. I don't see why it couldn't work in theory but I doubt there's enough processing power on most Android machines to do it in real time. There's already a noticeable lag in preview update and adding the fro to the to would kill it.
Very nice to hear that there are other people with the same wish because it feels totally against this bit of the zeitgeist.-Dormouse (May 27, 2020, 02:00 AM)
If you want to be able to edit in the preview, Texts (http://www.texts.io/features/)does just thatAlternatively Typora (https://typora.io/), which at least someone (https://medium.com/@stoweboyd/building-a-zettelkasten-in-typora-f22857c98301) uses for zettelkasten.-wraith808 (May 27, 2020, 10:56 AM)
@panzer, same question, are you using obsidian?-Nod5 (May 27, 2020, 02:36 PM)
@wraith808, thanks. Are you using hackmd? Looks nice.-Nod5 (May 27, 2020, 02:36 PM)
Which is a shame, as I would agree that such a feature would be good for acceptance of either MarkDown or AsciiDoc as somewhat of a replacement of WordPad in Windows. Perhaps even Word itself.I think that's where the market will be and developers will always chase the market in the end. The major requirement is that there has to be a reasonably simple way of printing or publishing. The world hasn't gone completely digital. I still have clients who require hard copy and I suspect that many recent converts have been mostly motivated to avoid the snail and expect to print internally.-Shades (May 27, 2020, 12:44 AM)
So I am still struggling with one-note one-thought. Specifically, what i think is one note ends up being a whole bunch of thoughts.-superboyac (November 27, 2019, 02:03 PM)
Zettelkasten-like system used by Andy Matuschak:
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/zhmLXArqiCMDr9Q13ViqN3hh3SmrKzjQxWAr
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z6f6xgGG4NKjkA5NA1kDd46whJh2Gt5rAmfX
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z3KmNj3oKKSTJfqdfSEBzTQiCVGoC4GfK3rYW
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z4Rrmh17vMBbauEGnFPTZSK3UmdsGExLRfZz1
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z6bci25mVUBNFdVWSrQNKr6u7AZ1jFzfTVbMF-panzer (May 27, 2020, 07:47 AM)
Obsidian is a powerful knowledge base that works on top of a local folder of plain text Markdown files:This looks very interesting. I'll give it a go. When I can find time on a PC, since it doesn't seem to have an Android app.
https://obsidian.md/-panzer (May 27, 2020, 01:36 PM)
I'll try this one out too, again within the limits of my PC time. I'll look at Texts too.@wraith808, thanks. Are you using hackmd? Looks nice.-Nod5 (May 27, 2020, 02:36 PM)
Yes, quite a bit. So much so that I pay for it. I'm writing my book in it (it has a book type layout), and I thought reading this thread the autolinking feature would be nice for this system.-wraith808 (May 27, 2020, 04:54 PM)
Yes, quite a bit. So much so that I pay for it. I'm writing my book in it (it has a book type layout), and I thought reading this thread the autolinking feature would be nice for this system.-wraith808 (May 27, 2020, 04:54 PM)
Yes, quite a bit. So much so that I pay for it. I'm writing my book in it (it has a book type layout), and I thought reading this thread the autolinking feature would be nice for this system.-wraith808 (May 27, 2020, 04:54 PM)
Cool! Do you have a view on the difference between HackMD and CodiMD? AFAICT they started out as the same project, but CodiMD is a FOSS fork. Confusingly HackMD github seem to still have a (competing) CodiMD repo.
https://hackmd.io/
https://github.com/hackmdio
https://github.com/codimd
https://demo.codimd.org/features#-Nod5 (May 28, 2020, 05:47 AM)
It is inspired by Hackpad, Etherpad and similar collaborative editors. This project originated with the team at HackMD and now forked into its own organisation.
*[] Read all the Andy Matuschak references from Panzer
*[] Work out sequence for evaluating text editors
*[] Check out Typora, Obsidian, Texts, HackMD and CodiMD
So how long before BBCode goes markdown? Or rather forums simply switch to markdown.-Dormouse (May 28, 2020, 07:02 AM)
3 transclude view: (this is the feature I'm looking for) the editor resolves only transclusions but no other markdown syntax. For example the editor shows "**weather**" (unresolved) but shows "hello world" (resolved transcluded contents of B.md) instead of "{{B.md}}".-Nod5 (May 28, 2020, 06:00 AM)
too off-topicToo off-topic can't exist if you have made a link.-Nod5 (May 28, 2020, 06:00 AM)
I learned something. Never heard of transclusion before. For any in that same boat: TransclusionI knew it had to be a clever programming idea.-wraith808 (May 28, 2020, 09:25 AM)
here is just a quick comment on reading Markdown text directly: I find it very easy after only a little practiceMaybe.-Nod5 (May 27, 2020, 10:37 AM)
After reading that, I'd think that if you can get around the need for having editable markdown, https://hackmd.io would be stellar for this!-wraith808 (May 27, 2020, 01:31 PM)
If you want to be able to edit in the preview, Texts does just that, which is the reason that I don't use it. I like to have my hands on the actual text of the document, but this software does it WYSIWYG and the backing file is just Markdown.-wraith808 (May 27, 2020, 10:56 AM)
I have no problem with markdown for notes because it's not a distraction. But I do when I'm working on prose and I need to focus on the relationship between the content and language and how it flows and progresses.Yeah, different formats fit for different use cases I suppose. Though for fiction prose writing maybe special formatting, beyond perhaps italics, would be infrequent enough to not distract much even in raw Markdown mode? Could also help: Many code editors let you tweak and toogle between different themes and highlight schemes. So one could use one where the format pops at times and one more discreet at other times. VS Code and other editors also have a quick toggle for zen mode (minimal mode, distraction free mode, ...) that hides most toolbars and buttons. Example:-Dormouse (May 28, 2020, 10:52 AM)
Some forums and other social media already use Markdown (see *Diaspora and Discourse)If Markdown takes over the world, I assume that all forums will switch to it.-wraith808 (May 28, 2020, 09:23 AM)
I didn't see offhand where codimd supports book mode (https://hackmd.io/c/tutorials/%2Fs%2Fhow-to-create-book), which is my major use of hackmd. And some other features, like workspaces. And that's just from a cursory look.The history link helped. Seems CodiMD is not for me either, right now at least, since I don't want to manage a server for notes.
...
Longer explanation at https://github.com/codimd/server/blob/407c53b9d9c463782c130c1f804d0f5af1fc2539/docs/history.md-wraith808 (May 28, 2020, 09:21 AM)
Never heard of transclusion before-wraith808
Could also help: Many code editors let you tweak and toogle between different themes and highlight schemes. So one could use one where the format pops at times and one more discreet at other times. VS Code and other editors also have a quick toggle for zen mode (minimal mode, distraction free mode, ...) that hides most toolbars and buttons.Yes. I'm already looking to check out text editors. From this thread, I have Vim, neovim - with warning of steep learning curve, VSCode, Notepad++, and iirc UltraEdit and EditPad from another thread. I will search for other contenders.-Nod5 (May 28, 2020, 02:33 PM)
MDyna is a markdown notes application that syncs with Github gists, and much more:
https://mdyna.dev-panzer (May 28, 2020, 02:11 PM)
I don't get anything when I click on it. I assume the site is down.MDyna is a markdown notes application that syncs with Github gists, and much more:
https://mdyna.dev-panzer (May 28, 2020, 02:11 PM)
Thanks! That looks interesting!-wraith808 (May 28, 2020, 03:08 PM)
I don't get anything when I click on it. I assume the site is down.MDyna is a markdown notes application that syncs with Github gists, and much more:
https://mdyna.dev-panzer (May 28, 2020, 02:11 PM)
Thanks! That looks interesting!-wraith808 (May 28, 2020, 03:08 PM)-Dormouse (May 28, 2020, 03:58 PM)
Thanks, and thanks to PanzerSo I am still struggling with one-note one-thought. Specifically, what i think is one note ends up being a whole bunch of thoughts.I'd recommend reading this set of links from Panzer. I've not read all of them yet, but will. I've never read anyone whose thinking (so far) aligns so well with my own. I'm hopeful I'll find a useful addition to my own practice and, if not, it will be a nice ego boost.-superboyac (November 27, 2019, 02:03 PM)
Like me, he seems to be respectful of the way he believes Luhmann worked but sceptical of the the methods of his modern acolytes.
To paraphrase something I think you intimated earlier, the thinking is the actual goal, not the physical note.-Dormouse (May 28, 2020, 04:53 AM)
I'll also point out that these are actual examples of notes.this I find really helpful. I'm not great at picturing a setup when it's just described, so an actual example is wonderful to have -- and the website works really well (e.g. for anyone wanting a quick look see Write about what you read (https://notes.andymatuschak.org/zg3fYweZpbHeBTpcYke5mF4ZfrJutYcQEtFo?stackedNotes=zX1WtJ4ouE8sjN1NgWHsGVg8ZnVfp5Kz74Vs&stackedNotes=z8QSUyNdq3CMK79KSnCW7QTR1MPHEFi4Q2LY8) with two notes/links fully expanded in same page. Note related links bottom of note. All links also show a (longish) preview on mouseover. Still wish I had a couple of monitors though..)
ED: I've now read his note on why books don't work. I sort of agree with much of it, but his understanding of the underlying science is over simple and he's looking out of his car to where he's going rather than taking time to see all the ideas on both sides.haven't gotten this far yet
So no longer completely aligned.
:)
Zettelkasten-like system used by Andy Matuschak:
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/zhmLXArqiCMDr9Q13ViqN3hh3SmrKzjQxWAr
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z6f6xgGG4NKjkA5NA1kDd46whJh2Gt5rAmfX
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z3KmNj3oKKSTJfqdfSEBzTQiCVGoC4GfK3rYW
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z4Rrmh17vMBbauEGnFPTZSK3UmdsGExLRfZz1
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/z6bci25mVUBNFdVWSrQNKr6u7AZ1jFzfTVbMF-panzer (May 27, 2020, 07:47 AM)
I don't get anything when I click on it. I assume the site is down.MDyna is a markdown notes application that syncs with Github gists, and much more:
https://mdyna.dev-panzer (May 28, 2020, 02:11 PM)
Thanks! That looks interesting!-wraith808 (May 28, 2020, 03:08 PM)-Dormouse (May 28, 2020, 03:58 PM)
Is there a way to do global search in a HackMD book? The top left search bar on the demo page only seems to let us search the outline.-Nod5 (May 28, 2020, 03:02 PM)
Roam Research - a note-taking tool for networked thought:I'd always dismissed Roam because it's online only.
https://roamresearch.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxOffM_tVHI-panzer (May 30, 2020, 05:27 AM)
I would agree that such a feature would be good for acceptance of either MarkDown or AsciiDoc as somewhat of a replacement of WordPad in Windows. Perhaps even Word itself.I'm starting to think 'Nail' and 'Head'.-Shades (May 27, 2020, 12:44 AM)
I'd always dismissed Roam because it's online only.And, of course, if it had local clients it might not have had to stop accepting new users.-Dormouse (May 30, 2020, 06:41 AM)
Plan D. Or maybe anyway. Writage. Writes Markdown and takes it into docx. Forces me to docx rather than rtf. Whatever - I'll go with the lingua franca. Convoluted workflow. But might act as lubricant in a workflow that's getting stuck. I've not tested this one yet.-Dormouse (May 30, 2020, 02:30 AM)
If you use writage, you might want to also take a look at Writing Outliner. It helps to organize docx into projects.Let's hope it doesn't come to that after all my years advising people never to write in Word. Lingua franca is one thing but trapping myself within the borders is another.-wraith808 (May 30, 2020, 03:55 PM)
How to use Roam Research: a tool for metacognition:
https://nesslabs.com/roam-research-panzer (June 02, 2020, 11:57 AM)
The brain is basically a neural network—a mesh of neurons all interacting with each other.I always find it very annoying when people use an inaccurate and incomplete description of the way the brain works to support an idea that is only loosely related to brain function.
All OSsI had never heard of clipto... it looks like it is a powerful option that adds some automation to the mix.
Clipto, Evernote for clipping
Trello; boundary with Obsidian/Roam yet to be established-Dormouse (June 03, 2020, 10:02 AM)
remember that things that can sync through dropbox, onenote, etc can be lifesavers.-wraith808 (June 03, 2020, 05:49 PM)
Was in its own folder, now in sync folder.
But, I'm still considering the implications of each approach.
The folders will be copied and backed up in either case.-Dormouse (June 04, 2020, 11:38 AM)
I've found that you can edit a file that obsidian has open in another program and obsidian just updates when it is saved.-Dormouse (June 04, 2020, 02:04 PM)
What are you using to sync?Dropsync/autosync on Android - still testing-wraith808 (June 04, 2020, 02:05 PM)
That's a bonus. Does it automatically sense when a file is saved outside of it?Not sure - I just wondered what it would do. It updated pretty instantly when I saved though.-wraith808 (June 04, 2020, 02:05 PM)
I get duplicates at times named with the file name plus ([MACHINENAME's] CONFLICTED VERSION)Ah!
It's hard to get it to sync right from there- the conflicted versions seem to always come back.-wraith808 (June 04, 2020, 02:43 PM)
But I definitely have a front end problem as far as getting notes into Obsidian is concerned.I'm still playing around with it. Cola Notes is the current focus. Still have to check the compatibility of its markdown. And work out the route into Obsidian. I can sync with a sync app. Or sync within the app - but is safe to allow a Chinese app access to any of my cloud drives? At least it has a widget and development momentum.-Dormouse (June 09, 2020, 08:08 PM)
There are just a few idiosyncracies I couldn't get past- the most critical being that it doesn't actually use Markdown, just a syntax which is similar to MarkdownI hate markdown.-wraith808 (June 10, 2020, 09:24 AM)
I like your certainty that there is only one true markdown but I'm not a believer at all.-Dormouse (June 10, 2020, 09:41 AM)
There's a markdown that I use, and certain variations from it that I can't deal with.-wraith808 (June 10, 2020, 09:53 AM)
Stroll is a notetaking tool built with the TiddlyWiki platform, imitating a number of features of Roam:Thanks.-panzer (June 10, 2020, 12:58 PM)
Beloved Roamans:
Have a few major updates for you.
First - and most important - we shipped pricing yesterday for new users who wanted to get off the waitlist, but ROAM IS STILL FREE FOR YOU IF YOU AREN'T READY TO PAY.
Just scroll down past the pricing component that appears when you sign in. You'll see all the Roam "graphs" (databases - might change this term) you've created, and any shared ones that you've been added to.
Second - and I should have sent an update to all of y'all many weeks ago, but I've written a bit about the scaling problems we 5-7 weeks ago, and why we put the waitlist up in the first place.
For those of you who had days where you were locked out of your Roam with the dreaded infinite astrolabe, for those of you who had syncing problems and lost notes - I can't express my regret enough.
I do hope that our local backup system meant much less lost work than the first time we had scaling problems back in February - but my communication was way worse 6 weeks ago than it was the first time - and I'm very sorry you had to go through those problems without helpful communication from us.
Third - for you privacy oriented folks - and particularly for those of who want to roam with thoughts you can't trust to any 3rd party organization (state or trade secrets, info that could get you killed or thrown in prison) - we finally shipped local-only databases.
Right now this feature is only available for users on the Believer Plan - which might be a good incentive to upgrade - but we do plan to eventually make this available to everyone, even folks who got into the beta who aren't paying for any plan.
You can learn more about how local databases work here. tl;dr they work off the same local storage system we use that enables offline editing in normal Roam, we just don't send any data to our servers.
Now back to subject of pricing.
IF you are one of the people who have been wanting to give us money for ages (and thank you for reminding us of this so often!), you now can! When you sign in here, you'll see this pricing component and can pick a plan that works for you.
WARNING - if you change plans, our payment processor removes the free trial and you'll be charged right away.
IF that price is too much for you but you still want to pay - please fill out the ROAM SCHOLARS application form!
IF you do not want to pay - either because you aren't sure about Roam yet (what are you waiting for!) or you just want to milk the free plan as long as you can (shame on you for not supporting tool makers!) you do not need to worry, YOU CAN KEEP USING ROAM FOR FREE.
I know I've tweeted at points that we are keeping beta free for another month, but I've removed those tweets now, because honestly we aren't particularly thrilled to build a paywall anytime soon - and frankly have bigger features that we're more excited about (like full offline, a desktop app, the API, plugin support, and getting mobile apps).
Finally, if you haven't been relentlessly following us on social media, there have been a bunch of other huge updates in the past few weeks, and a ton of amazing things coming out of the community.
We shipped custom theming and CSS - and there have been some beautiful ones created by the community.
Here is a tweet thread with video instructions to set up themes, a link to where you can find the themes (and Paypal links to donate to the creators), and some screenshots of featured ones.
www.RoamPublic.com has launched (thank you Francis Miller of www.RoamBrain.com). It highlights public Roams with canonical texts - like the King James Bible, The Qur'an (in English and Arabic), the Mahabarata, and other great works - all formatted for easy import into your personal Roam.
As a warning, these texts are large, and will definitely slow down your database. To help deal with this, we also shipped an improvement to the ALL PAGES so that you can bulk delete pages, or export a subset of a graph - suggest you export only the sections of these public Roams you are most interested in, so that Roam is still reasonably quick for you to load on mobile, or with slow internet.
Have shipped a bunch of other small improvements and new features over the past few weeks. To learn more about those, check out our Change Log.
We also opened up a new forum and support site - since Slack was archiving all old messages.
How I GTD in Roam Research:That's impressive!
http://vincelutton.com/how-i-gtd-in-roam-research/-panzer (June 12, 2020, 04:59 PM)
FYI- Roam has released its pricing. It's $15/month. You can continue for free right now, but as at some point they will do away with the free plan (and their language is shaming people that don't want to pay that price), I'm done with Roam. That's just way too much a month for me. Emphasized the part below about the not free forever part...Only shows how much is in flux right now with these different tools.-wraith808 (June 11, 2020, 03:23 PM)
One thing I hope for is standardization of some of the newer features. Like double bracket style links, timestamps as references and automatic backlinking, autocompletion and highlighting tailored for note taking, and more. A superset of CommonMark with features for working with information in large sets of interrelated plaintext files.Standardisation in markdown? (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/WALLBASH.GIF)(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/WALLBASH.GIF)(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/WALLBASH.GIF)(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/WALLBASH.GIF)-Nod5 (June 14, 2020, 06:17 AM)
One thing I hope for is standardization of some of the newer features. Like double bracket style links, timestamps as references and automatic backlinking, autocompletion and highlighting tailored for note taking, and more. A superset of CommonMark with features for working with information in large sets of interrelated plaintext files.Standardisation in markdown? (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/WALLBASH.GIF)(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/WALLBASH.GIF)(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/WALLBASH.GIF)(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/WALLBASH.GIF)-Nod5 (June 14, 2020, 06:17 AM)-Dormouse (June 14, 2020, 12:29 PM)
Re: markdown standardization. StackOverflowI notice that they also said-Nod5 (June 16, 2020, 01:54 PM)
Things like spoilers, MathJax, circuit diagrams, stack snippets, etc. are used on several network sites. We're going to continue to support all of those custom syntax elements even if they're not part of the official CommonMark specification.So standardisation, but only up to a point.
GeistMap is a personal knowledge network for taking notes and mapping concepts:this seems quite interesting, but I'm not sure about the traction-panzer (June 15, 2020, 04:02 PM)
People are trying. The creator is resisting.I'd like to think it will evolve if the more important players move in the same direction. The overall cost of maintenance pushes them in that direction, although everyone is always wanting extras so a system to agree on those is what's needed.-wraith808 (June 14, 2020, 02:45 PM)
Info-Base - Personal Informations Manager / Freeform Database
http://freeware.persoft.ch/program_en.htm
9.7 - 14.06.2020
5.0 MB
a "clone" (with new options) of the good and old "Info-Select" (Version 1.0) ...
supports Unicode, external and internal links.
very fast (also with very large amount of data) and effectively for any kind of data ...
no complex formatting, only TAB and CR/LF.
the rules are limited to the bare minimum and they can be adjusted arbitrarily.
the idea is that of a "note spear" (stack) on the desk.
new notes are easily and quickly placed on top of the appropriate stack.
free customizable templates for different data.
clip import from other programs (f.e. browser, e-mail client).
extremely fast full-text search in each stack (local F4) or in all stacks (global F3).
combined filter (with logical and), bookmarks, alarm by date (tickler).
all databases can be edited with any unicode-text-editor.
unlimited (only disc space) number of notes / stacks.
the ideal "Zettelkasten" ...
Data from Info-Select can be imported. (IS 1.0 for each stack: "Group", "Export to file" or in newer Versions: export as "Note Delimited", may change (temp.) in InfoBase the "file delimiter" !)
Warning - I haven't tried this, and MBAM blocks the site as a Trojan.I wondered whether Info Select needed cloning, and then noticed the .ch.-rjbull (June 16, 2020, 04:29 PM)
Reference database, I don't think I need this.-superboyac (June 16, 2020, 07:34 PM)
I like this visual, it is helpful.-superboyac (June 16, 2020, 07:34 PM)
Do you mean the Zettelkasten notes *and* the reference database?I like this visual, it is helpful.-superboyac (June 16, 2020, 07:34 PM)
It is! Thanks for sharing - I can really see the workflow from this image. My only problem is the same thing that I have with everything- I can collect, but going through the collection is a problem for me. I need to do the first two steps at the same time.-wraith808 (June 17, 2020, 09:14 AM)
Do you mean the Zettelkasten notes *and* the reference database?I like this visual, it is helpful.-superboyac (June 16, 2020, 07:34 PM)
It is! Thanks for sharing - I can really see the workflow from this image. My only problem is the same thing that I have with everything- I can collect, but going through the collection is a problem for me. I need to do the first two steps at the same time.-wraith808 (June 17, 2020, 09:14 AM)-tomos (June 17, 2020, 12:03 PM)
?Warning - I haven't tried this, and MBAM blocks the site as a Trojan.I wondered whether Info Select needed cloning, and then noticed the .ch.-rjbull (June 16, 2020, 04:29 PM)-Dormouse (June 16, 2020, 05:25 PM)
After your MBAM warning, I decided not to visit the site.MBAM's 'Web Protection' is now far too eager to block a site as 'Trojan.' It did it to Horst Schaeffer (https://www.horstmuc.de/wnews.htm)'s site, and I've used his software for decades. It did it to PowerPro (http://powerpro.cresadu.com/), and that must be one of the oldest macro-type programs still around. I got MBAM to check and whitelist those, but it gets tedious for every site.-Dormouse (June 16, 2020, 05:25 PM)
Step 1 is going to the inboxIf we forget the formal zettelkasten method which is predicated on the notes eventually being published, then my current system makes it very easy to do in one pass. Using tags rather than folders or equivalent.
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox
I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases. If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized. So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced.-wraith808 (June 17, 2020, 03:02 PM)
VNote - a note-taking application that knows programmers and Markdown better:wow these are very nifty tools. man so many choices. I do have some minor complaints about zettlr.
https://tamlok.github.io/vnote
Bytebase helps you jot down and triage notes without slowing you down:
https://bytebase.io./-panzer (June 17, 2020, 01:04 PM)
makes a lot of sense to me, and simple to follow.Step 1 is going to the inboxIf we forget the formal zettelkasten method which is predicated on the notes eventually being published, then my current system makes it very easy to do in one pass. Using tags rather than folders or equivalent.
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox
I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases. If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized. So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced.-wraith808 (June 17, 2020, 03:02 PM)I don't spend time going through them trying to find ways of extending the notes. I only go through them when there's another purpose in mind. But if I have a new thought I add a new note - and the link will be obvious.
- If it's something not ever worth seeing again, it goes to the Attics (possibly I'll note why it's worthless).
- If it's not worth spending more time on, it goes to the Archive, usually with a few more tags.
- If I make a note, it goes to the Library. Note into the Scriptorium; I'll add links if I can think of them, but don't get hung upon it.
-Dormouse (June 17, 2020, 05:10 PM)
Step 1 is going to the inboxIf we forget the formal zettelkasten method which is predicated on the notes eventually being published, then my current system makes it very easy to do in one pass. Using tags rather than folders or equivalent.
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox
I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases. If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized. So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced.-wraith808 (June 17, 2020, 03:02 PM)I don't spend time going through them trying to find ways of extending the notes. I only go through them when there's another purpose in mind. But if I have a new thought I add a new note - and the link will be obvious.
- If it's something not ever worth seeing again, it goes to the Attics (possibly I'll note why it's worthless).
- If it's not worth spending more time on, it goes to the Archive, usually with a few more tags.
- If I make a note, it goes to the Library. Note into the Scriptorium; I'll add links if I can think of them, but don't get hung upon it.
-Dormouse (June 17, 2020, 05:10 PM)
IN that sense, what I want did work using Zettlr and Obsidian. I loaded my zettlr files in obsidian and the web links were there, very nice. The problem is this....in zettlr, it file ID is read from that specifically formatted date item that usually is inserted automatically. Then there is a separate "title" that is more descriptive. When that is imported into obsidian, you only see the date number in the web visual, no title. This is rough as the screen is just full of numbers, useless.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 10:53 AM)
Markdown importer: imports your Markdown export from Zettelkasten systems and Roam Research into Obsidian.
But using Obsidian just to keep track of the thoughts and as a reference to my writing in another process seems to be working better.I've not fully developed my process - Obsidian's developing too fast to fix myself - but I expect to do something like this. Some will have to involve Android, so I look forward to their Android app. But the rest of the writing will work well in WriteMonkey. Effectively files shared between it and Obsidian (and whatever I use on Android). And gives my documents an extra backup in the WriteMonkey database.-wraith808 (June 18, 2020, 10:26 AM)
on a really specific/technical level, the key thing for me is that ID/title issue in zettlr. Whatever the clever solution to that is, that's going to take things to the next level.For me, the solution is the ID being hidden. That means it's in the edit view but not the preview (or the WYSIWYG). All programs should be able to deal with that.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 10:53 AM)
What do you mean the ID is hidden? It's not hidden to me, or I don't know what you mean. In zettlr, I thought the ID is right in the file. For me it's the first line, I copy the ID and paste it there when I create the note. Because I thought zettlr needs that ID to be somewhere in the actual note. I wasn't aware its hidden or you can hide it, please tell me more.on a really specific/technical level, the key thing for me is that ID/title issue in zettlr. Whatever the clever solution to that is, that's going to take things to the next level.For me, the solution is the ID being hidden. That means it's in the edit view but not the preview (or the WYSIWYG). All programs should be able to deal with that.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 10:53 AM)-Dormouse (June 18, 2020, 01:28 PM)
What do you mean the ID is hidden?I don't mean it is hidden; I don't know zettlr.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 03:40 PM)
yes, i agree 100% with you. This is what I'm calling the ID/title issue. IMO, this is the main challenge for the solution we are looking for. Zettlr, in their effort to keep everything explicitly in the file, requires an unique ID in the file somewhere. And you can edit the format of that ID (it gets automatically generated) so that zettlr recognizes it. I did an experiment where I tried using a descriptive title instead of the unique ID, and zettlr wont work like that because it won't know what the file is.What do you mean the ID is hidden?I don't mean it is hidden; I don't know zettlr.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 03:40 PM)
What I mean is that it can be entered in a markdown note in such a way that it isn't rendered. It can be hidden as a comment, or in YAML front matter etc.
This gives you all the advantages of using the ID without ever having to see it unless you are in the markdown edit mode.
afaics, this solution doesn't seem to be commonly applied. But to my mind it solves most of the problems.
I dislike having the ID in the title. It is too distracting unless the title is always hidden, but that can't be the case if you work directly with the files.-Dormouse (June 18, 2020, 04:12 PM)
I agree with you I would like that ID hidden. I don't know a way around it.Edit the markdown file so that the ID is commented out or put into front matter. Though that doesn't help if you review the files in edit mode.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 05:25 PM)
I agree with you I would like that ID hidden. I don't know a way around it.Edit the markdown file so that the ID is commented out or put into front matter. Though that doesn't help if you review the files in edit mode.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 05:25 PM)
Maybe zettlr will ignore anything hidden, but I doubt it.-Dormouse (June 18, 2020, 05:54 PM)
OH YEA??!! I gotta try this...I agree with you I would like that ID hidden. I don't know a way around it.Edit the markdown file so that the ID is commented out or put into front matter. Though that doesn't help if you review the files in edit mode.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 05:25 PM)
Maybe zettlr will ignore anything hidden, but I doubt it.-Dormouse (June 18, 2020, 05:54 PM)
You can do it with [[ID|Text to be shown]] - I think that's the syntax. Make the ID the link, and describe it with text.-wraith808 (June 18, 2020, 08:04 PM)
The problem with that is the internal linking. It's almost like this can all be solved with yet a 3rd tool loll..From my perspective, Obsidian does this well. Not a database as such, but fast enough for all the processes. Obviously if you get hundreds of thousands of files, a database may be the best answer.
the third tool will be a database tools with the sole function of keeping track of the links and ID/titles in the zettel files.-superboyac (June 19, 2020, 01:36 PM)
A lot of them are geared towards programmers vs writers (like me).I think that's true up to a point, and many of the early users are programmers. But I think they all work well for writing. They facilitate planning, world-building, referencing, storyboarding etc. For this, I find the Obsidian editor quite sufficient.-superboyac (June 19, 2020, 01:36 PM)
It wants to modify all your links in order to "beautify" them...in other words, make it work well with its software.Not sure what you mean by that. Is it part of the import process?-superboyac (June 19, 2020, 01:58 PM)
that's a lot of steps just to deal with zettlr. I'd rather just create a note, and all that is automatically accomplished, except for one part where i would manually enter a title.Any document or editor. System wide shortcut to put in dateandtime for ID, and you could probably use Wraith808's suggestion as part of that shortcut so all you have to do is type your title. And then you can use the document in any system you want.-superboyac (June 19, 2020, 12:59 PM)
[re: zettelkasten data structure graphic]
Step 1 is going to the inbox
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox
I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases. If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized. So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced. It's a failing on my part, but I haven't found anything that really helps with that without it seeming like 'too much'.-wraith808 (June 17, 2020, 03:02 PM)
What note system features do we need to best handle that?You need a flow control on the way in, matched to the pipe out, and an overflow to deal with issues. Critical that the inbox size is limited.-Nod5 (June 20, 2020, 07:52 AM)
OK I just tried is QownNotes and it works! Awesome.I agree with you I would like that ID hidden. I don't know a way around it.Edit the markdown file so that the ID is commented out or put into front matter. Though that doesn't help if you review the files in edit mode.-superboyac (June 18, 2020, 05:25 PM)
Maybe zettlr will ignore anything hidden, but I doubt it.-Dormouse (June 18, 2020, 05:54 PM)
You can do it with [[ID|Text to be shown]] - I think that's the syntax. Make the ID the link, and describe it with text.-wraith808 (June 18, 2020, 08:04 PM)
which markdown flavor is recommended for the best compatibility and long term usage?-superboyac (June 21, 2020, 06:30 PM)
holy cow...yea, that's called a crazy person. lolllllwhich markdown flavor is recommended for the best compatibility and long term usage?-superboyac (June 21, 2020, 06:30 PM)
I just use basic markdown- the only thing I add is tables. The other stuff I've found that I don't need, and it works with everything.
I just had to share this - someone's graph.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/66h9bqn3mmvpqgf/Photo%20Jun%2003%2C%208%2054%2016%20PM.gif?dl=0
It's pretty crazy that someone can have that indepth of a graph!-wraith808 (June 21, 2020, 09:30 PM)
which markdown flavor is recommended for the best compatibility and long term usage?As wraith808 says, the more basic the syntax the more likely all programs are to interpret it correctly.-superboyac (June 21, 2020, 06:30 PM)
Regarding my question about headers, here is a discussion about it and an example.
https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/449/what-the-head-of-a-zettel-should-look-like-superboyac (June 22, 2020, 12:33 AM)
Finding programs on Android isn't straightforward. First I would prefer them to concur with Obsidian. But then I need them to work with Typing Hero which has kicked out a few of my preferred apps.-Dormouse (June 22, 2020, 07:00 AM)
The biggest problem for me with finding something on Android (and the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.True.-wraith808 (June 22, 2020, 08:06 AM)
Nice. I was wondering about the tags. Zettlr has this weird issue...if you put the tags in the yaml, they don't work if you ctrl-click it (which is supposed to filter the notes list to the tag clicked). So for now, I am leaving the tags outside the yaml header where it works properly.Regarding my question about headers, here is a discussion about it and an example.
https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/449/what-the-head-of-a-zettel-should-look-like-superboyac (June 22, 2020, 12:33 AM)
That's exactly what I use- except I don't put the Tags label beside the tags.Finding programs on Android isn't straightforward. First I would prefer them to concur with Obsidian. But then I need them to work with Typing Hero which has kicked out a few of my preferred apps.-Dormouse (June 22, 2020, 07:00 AM)
The biggest problem for me with finding something on Android (and the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.-wraith808 (June 22, 2020, 08:06 AM)
You crossed it out... is that not true?Correct. I don't know where I read that, but I just tried on Sublime 3 and it works, and the site says it is actively maintained, although no changes since 2018.-wraith808 (June 22, 2020, 12:01 PM)
The good thing, since they are just text files, you can use all these software simultaneously.-superboyac (June 22, 2020, 12:56 PM)
the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.Apparently there's an export plugin being developed to convert all [[ ]] to [ ]( )-wraith808 (June 22, 2020, 08:06 AM)
Which format is good for what? [[]] is for internal zettel links, right? I see []() used more broadly in other applications. In the zettel context, they should be interchangeable. Or obsidian should have a feature to deal with the two types.the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.Apparently there's an export plugin being developed to convert all [[ ]] to [ ]( )-wraith808 (June 22, 2020, 08:06 AM)-Dormouse (June 22, 2020, 02:55 PM)
Which format is good for what? [[]] is for internal zettel links, right? I see []() used more broadly in other applications. In the zettel context, they should be interchangeable. Or obsidian should have a feature to deal with the two types.Remember Obsidian isn't a zettelkasten program - it's just capable of being used as one. [[]] is a wiki link, []() is the conventional markdown syntax. Obsidian prefers the former because it's simpler, but can understand the latter.-superboyac (June 22, 2020, 07:00 PM)
I've been very hesitant to commit to zettel because i first want to know the tools I'm going to use. I think this will work for now.Before committing too hard to zettel, it's worth thinking about Andy Matuschak's evergreen notes.-superboyac (June 22, 2020, 07:01 PM)
Wishes unlikely to come trueYou could make them true yourself. Fork an appropriate FOSS project by inserting your preferred changes to syntax and then describe it as GFM, or whatever the original is, with Nod extensions.
I wish markdown by default rendered indentation as indentation! For code blocks there is already the three fence ``` prefix/suffix.
I even wish that minus - and plus + at line start (with/without indentation) defaulted to not be interpreted as bullet point list formatting. They should function as list formatting characters only when preceded by a line prefixed with some other character that would start a list. For example a dot . character.-Nod5 (June 23, 2020, 03:25 AM)
evergreen notesI am interested...-Dormouse (June 22, 2020, 07:57 PM)
OK you got me thinking outside the box...I've been very hesitant to commit to zettel because i first want to know the tools I'm going to use. I think this will work for now.Before committing too hard to zettel, it's worth thinking about Andy Matuschak's evergreen notes.-superboyac (June 22, 2020, 07:01 PM)
I'm not following either really. I think they have a strong appeal to those who are attracted to a rigid system. I do subscribe to atomicity, though I think there are a variety of ways to achieve it, and I do believe it is important both to think and to record the results of the thinking. And I use a whole variety of links. The problem with thinking is that it takes the time it takes, and insights, leaps and eurekas are only possible when your mind is open rather than on a trail or on a schedule.-Dormouse (June 22, 2020, 07:57 PM)
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/These are his notes, so many of them are evergreen.
(very cool site design btw)
but i don't get what evergreen notes are.-superboyac (June 23, 2020, 11:46 AM)
I'm starting to agree with you.https://notes.andymatuschak.org/These are his notes, so many of them are evergreen.
(very cool site design btw)
but i don't get what evergreen notes are.-superboyac (June 23, 2020, 11:46 AM)
I wouldn't worry too much about it. All it really means is that they are notes that have a long-term value rather than temporary notes. Which notes ticks that box is up to you.
He developed his system after playing with zettelkasten ideas.
But you want your own system. Some of his ideas are interesting and useful, but I believe it's always a mistake to follow any of these systems rigidly without fitting their ideas into what suits you.-Dormouse (June 23, 2020, 01:15 PM)
Is it a problem if I DON'T put my tags in the yaml header?Why would it be?-superboyac (June 23, 2020, 04:38 PM)
don't get what evergreen notes are. Is there a sample I can see somewhere?Description again, but I read this comment on the Obsidian discord-superboyac (June 23, 2020, 11:46 AM)
Zettels as Luhman/Ahrens use them are specific things. Zettlekasten.de uses another definition, and now the term is often thrown around to just mean "note". Read Ahrens' book for his notion and compare to Andy M's description of types of evergreen notes. They have different purposes and focus. The original ZK is for academic writing. Andy M's notes are for productive thinking. These are related but different activities.
brainstorm: plaintext note content hierarchy via indentationI didnt realize until now that markdown couldn't do indentation. That would be nice if it were implemented. It's not even in any of the other markdown flavors?
I more and more like the idea of hierarchical notes via pythonic indentation
with 2 spaces instead of 4, for compactness
minimal yet very readable in code editor set to show whitespace and fixed width font
problem: markdown and asciidoc use space/tab indentation for other things
markdown treats 4 indentation spaces as a code block
markdown collapses e.g. 3 or 14 spaces to no indentation
https://stackoverflow.com/editing-help#advanced-lists
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40023013/tab-space-in-markdown
https://asciidoctor.org/docs/asciidoc-syntax-quick-reference/
Any ideas/workarounds on using such compact pythonic indentation effectively in markdown based notes apps/systems?
Comparison examples
1. pythonic indentation (2 spaces)
Note: markdown collapses these indents and shows all on one line if not two suffix spaces.
Sun
big
hot
bright
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Sunlight
2. Markdown nested list
- Sun
- big
- hot
- bright
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Sunlight
3. Markdown nested list alternating bullet characters (more compact, but still extra characters)
- Sun
+ big
+ hot
+ bright
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Sunlight
Examples screenshot from VS Code with raw and preview tabs
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Wishes unlikely to come true
I wish markdown by default rendered indentation as indentation! For code blocks there is already the three fence ``` prefix/suffix.
I even wish that minus - and plus + at line start (with/without indentation) defaulted to not be interpreted as bullet point list formatting. They should function as list formatting characters only when preceded by a line prefixed with some other character that would start a list. For example a dot . character.-Nod5 (June 23, 2020, 03:25 AM)
tiddlyroam is a free, open source alternative to Roam. It is a notetaking app that works the way your brain does: networked, personal and infinitely customisable:
https://tiddlyroam.org/-panzer (June 24, 2020, 01:43 PM)
I didnt realize until now that markdown couldn't do indentation. That would be nice if it were implemented. It's not even in any of the other markdown flavors?Used for other things (code block). You're stuck with etc-superboyac (June 24, 2020, 01:27 PM)
How to never lose another memory again:I use the Journal (software) for this precisely.
https://superorganizers.substack.com/p/how-to-never-lose-another-memory-panzer (June 24, 2020, 04:28 PM)
How to never lose another memory again:
https://superorganizers.substack.com/p/how-to-never-lose-another-memory-panzer (June 24, 2020, 04:28 PM)
What I don't like about all this zettel stuff is how its so much in the programmer's world of things. Meaning all these code formatting features. But I'm looking at it from a non programmer perspective. I'd prefer to have outlining features over code formatting features. I'm sure it (markdown) can be resolved somehow. Maybe distinguish the <tab> character vs spaces.As you know, I'm not a fan of the state of markdown. But the tab paragraph indentation is more nuanced. Writers generally don't use it. WPs may be set up to do it automatically, because seeing the words and layout is part of composition, but manually is bad. Easy if you are writing a letter or essay to print yourself, but poor practice. This is because house styles are usually set up and adjusted with CSS or equivalent. So manual tabs get in the way and always need to be stripped out. Life is always easier at the publishing end without them. But few use the styles features of WPs. :( Tabs are typewriter technology; a breakthrough in their time, but that was over a century ago.-superboyac (June 24, 2020, 06:59 PM)
Has anybody managed to integrate/use a spellchecker with it.Latest insider build has a spellchecker (US English only), a few glitches still being sorted.-m9833 (June 25, 2020, 03:18 AM)
All I am missing there are tags, highlighters, and commentsYou just type these in with markdown ;D-m9833 (June 25, 2020, 03:15 AM)
Latest insider build has a spellchecker (US English only), a few glitches still being sorted.-Dormouse (June 25, 2020, 04:03 AM)
All I am missing there are tags, highlighters, and commentsYou just type these in with markdown ;D-m9833 (June 25, 2020, 03:15 AM)-Dormouse (June 25, 2020, 04:06 AM)
Markdown has the option to tag, highlight, and comment as well? Wow! That I need to try out. Through, I would very much prefer a menu bar for this, probably mainly because that is what I am used to since a long time.Variety of conventions so best to know what is actually being inserted, but menu bar is easier and many apps have one.-m9833 (June 25, 2020, 04:35 AM)
Markdown has the option to tag, highlight, and comment as well? Wow! That I need to try out. Through, I would very much prefer a menu bar for this, probably mainly because that is what I am used to since a long time.Variety of conventions so best to know what is actually being inserted, but menu bar is easier and many apps have one.-m9833 (June 25, 2020, 04:35 AM)-Dormouse (June 25, 2020, 06:14 AM)
Foam is a personal knowledge management and sharing system inspired by Roam Research, built on Visual Studio Code and GitHub:
https://foambubble.github.io/foam/-panzer (June 25, 2020, 06:36 AM)
built on Visual Studio Code and GitHub:This seems to be a little similar another one (https://github.com/kortina/vscode-markdown-notes/)-panzer (June 25, 2020, 06:36 AM)
So, general question about Zettels- do you maintain more than one for different aspects? Or just break up stuff within based on tags and folders?I don't see myself as having zettels, though my system is heavily influenced, as are all the newly available programs.-wraith808 (June 25, 2020, 09:02 AM)
built on Visual Studio Code and GitHub:This seems to be a little similar another one (https://github.com/kortina/vscode-markdown-notes/)-panzer (June 25, 2020, 06:36 AM)
Stunning how many there are popping up-Dormouse (June 25, 2020, 03:51 PM)
What I'm doing right now is a combination of things. I took the extensions from foam but used the format of obsidian- I write in obsidian or in vs code. Really liking it so far.man i am not understanding how to even install foam. it's an extension of vs code, which is an editor? these programs are so complicated loll....ill get it sheesh.-wraith808 (June 25, 2020, 10:40 PM)
built on Visual Studio Code and GitHub:-panzer (June 25, 2020, 06:36 AM)
Stunning how many there are popping up-Dormouse (June 25, 2020, 03:51 PM)
That's not a different one. It's used by Foam.Aha!
Recommended Extensions for Foam-wraith808 (June 25, 2020, 09:47 PM)
What I'm doing right now is a combination of things. I took the extensions from foam but used the format of obsidian- I write in obsidian or in vs code. Really liking it so far.man i am not understanding how to even install foam. it's an extension of vs code, which is an editor? these programs are so complicated loll....ill get it sheesh.-wraith808 (June 25, 2020, 10:40 PM)-superboyac (June 25, 2020, 10:55 PM)
That's not a different one. It's used by Foam.Aha!
Recommended Extensions for Foam-wraith808 (June 25, 2020, 09:47 PM)
I see it now. Obsidian sits over md files, this sits over VS Code and its extensions. Clever.
Apart from the allusion, I'm unsure what the name is saying. "Sitting above the dirty Tiber"?
Assuming it's functional enough, I can see it being popular with all the VS Code and Git users, and those who dislike Obsidian being closed source.
But possibly overkill in its requirements for those who aren't.-Dormouse (June 26, 2020, 04:53 AM)
Both? Why not both?No reason not both, except that those who don't use VS Code or Git are unlikely to add them just to run Foam, unless they have a strong motivation. I think that will limit its pool of potential users.
Personally, I use both Obsidian and VS code with the extensions.-wraith808 (June 26, 2020, 10:23 AM)
conflationBut it specifically talks about being inspired by Roam and zettelkasten. What other category would it go in?-wraith808 (June 26, 2020, 04:59 PM)
1, 2, 3,4 ...checkWhat I'm doing right now is a combination of things. I took the extensions from foam but used the format of obsidian- I write in obsidian or in vs code. Really liking it so far.man i am not understanding how to even install foam. it's an extension of vs code, which is an editor? these programs are so complicated loll....ill get it sheesh.-wraith808 (June 25, 2020, 10:40 PM)-superboyac (June 25, 2020, 10:55 PM)
1. Go to https://github.com/foambubble/foam-template
2. Click use thiis template
3. Fill out the name of the repo that you want to use for Foam, and make it private or public as you wish
4. Open VS code.
5. Go to the source control tab and click clone
6. Clone it to your local drive wherever you want your Zettel stored
7. Authenticate to GitHub
8. After it is cloned, it will ask you to install recommended extensions. Do that (it will change your theme- booo... but you can change it back)
9. There is no 9. You're there.-wraith808 (June 26, 2020, 10:22 AM)
conflationBut it specifically talks about being inspired by Roam and zettelkasten. What other category would it go in?-wraith808 (June 26, 2020, 04:59 PM)
It may not be trying to compete, in which case it won't.
I don't think Obsidian is out to compete either because it's approach is very different, but it's certainly in a similar space and users compare them. And they have mentioned Foam.-Dormouse (June 26, 2020, 07:08 PM)
1, 2, 3,4 ...check
5: Source control tab unsighted ... should I be looking in VS code or github or...?
6. Clone options ...open in desktop or download as zip. Which? (I downloaded as zip, unzipped and then wondered)
7. Authenticate to Github ... how?
8. I cloned, downloaded as mentioned above, didn't get asked for anything. Opened VS code, opened folder which the clone got unzipped to, still not asked for anything.
Did have the option of installing 2 extensions(?) tho
Sorry about all the questions, and thanks for your list of instructions.
Probably one step I didn't do right resolves all I'm asking about...would appreciate any help
thanks-tsaint (June 26, 2020, 07:54 PM)
Thanks Wraith, that sure helped :)
Not so sure about using the URL - I've no idea atm whether notes I'm creating are being synced or not. Perhaps from messing about yesterday I've already used it.
Will worry about that after seeing how this all note creating/composing works.-tsaint (June 26, 2020, 10:36 PM)
The Notecard System: The Key For Remembering, Organizing And Using Everything You Read:
https://ryanholiday.net/the-notecard-system-the-key-for-remembering-organizing-and-using-everything-you-read/-panzer (July 01, 2020, 03:42 PM)
I followed this, thanks.What I'm doing right now is a combination of things. I took the extensions from foam but used the format of obsidian- I write in obsidian or in vs code. Really liking it so far.man i am not understanding how to even install foam. it's an extension of vs code, which is an editor? these programs are so complicated loll....ill get it sheesh.-wraith808 (June 25, 2020, 10:40 PM)-superboyac (June 25, 2020, 10:55 PM)
1. Go to https://github.com/foambubble/foam-template
2. Click use thiis template
3. Fill out the name of the repo that you want to use for Foam, and make it private or public as you wish
4. Open VS code.
5. Go to the source control tab and click clone
6. Clone it to your local drive wherever you want your Zettel stored
7. Authenticate to GitHub
8. After it is cloned, it will ask you to install recommended extensions. Do that (it will change your theme- booo... but you can change it back)
9. There is no 9. You're there.-wraith808 (June 26, 2020, 10:22 AM)
https://notes.andymatuschak.org
This website design is so incredible. I want this. How can I do this?-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 05:45 PM)
I just saw right on his front page....he says he doesn't make the system available to others. He's still testing it out and doesn't want to scale it yet.https://notes.andymatuschak.org
This website design is so incredible. I want this. How can I do this?-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 05:45 PM)
It's very similar to gingko (https://gingkoapp.com/), so you could use that for the same. I keep a lot of my notes in that. It just doesn't have the reference links nor the mouseovers.-wraith808 (July 02, 2020, 08:04 PM)
I just saw right on his front page....he says he doesn't make the system available to others. He's still testing it out and doesn't want to scale it yet.https://notes.andymatuschak.org
This website design is so incredible. I want this. How can I do this?-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 05:45 PM)
It's very similar to gingko (https://gingkoapp.com/), so you could use that for the same. I keep a lot of my notes in that. It just doesn't have the reference links nor the mouseovers.-wraith808 (July 02, 2020, 08:04 PM)-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 11:23 PM)
I'm not sure what they'll do when they hit capacity limitsThinking about it, the WriteMonkey route would fit current design, and they could offer option for database in json format + linked files.-Dormouse (July 03, 2020, 04:40 PM)
Ideally, for this sort of thing I'd like to get some website where all i have to do is sync my markdown files to the site, and it displays properly (lilke a regular markdown preview). THe closest thing I've come across is that jekyll program which github uses, and i also tried installing on a ubuntu machine myself. But it still requires quite a bit of tweaking.I just saw right on his front page....he says he doesn't make the system available to others. He's still testing it out and doesn't want to scale it yet.https://notes.andymatuschak.org
This website design is so incredible. I want this. How can I do this?-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 05:45 PM)
It's very similar to gingko (https://gingkoapp.com/), so you could use that for the same. I keep a lot of my notes in that. It just doesn't have the reference links nor the mouseovers.-wraith808 (July 02, 2020, 08:04 PM)-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 11:23 PM)
Oh, I know that. I was suggesting Gingko as an alternative.-wraith808 (July 03, 2020, 07:17 PM)
I like how Zettlr has the preview sort of built into the main editorI notice that many zettlr users have problems transitioning to other programs because filename isn't the same as the note name-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 05:43 PM)
i just made a feature request for this. TO have a feature in the program to rename files based on ID (what i wrote in an earlier post here). The developer likes the idea and seems willing to implement it, and others also have said they like the idea. Hopefully it will happen!I like how Zettlr has the preview sort of built into the main editorI notice that many zettlr users have problems transitioning to other programs because filename isn't the same as the note name-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 05:43 PM)-Dormouse (July 05, 2020, 07:48 AM)
The file name will also need at least one letter. Number only gives problems too.Ideally, the user can define how the filename should be. You can name it "ID title.md" or "title.md" or whatever. We just need a way to rename files using the ID number. It's perfect for Zettlr because it is already tracking the ID in the text continuously. Zettlr can even use the yaml header to detect ID or title changes instantly, which is awesome....now just sync it with the filename also.-Dormouse (July 06, 2020, 04:48 AM)
Memo - Markdown knowledge base with bidirectional [[link]]s built on top of VSCode:
https://github.com/svsool/vscode-memo-panzer (July 06, 2020, 03:52 PM)
the features in this one are a lot more polished from what I've seen so far.Useful to know that, thanks.-wraith808 (July 06, 2020, 09:57 PM)
notelessSo this is an Android version of Notable. Which is a recently closed source markdown app for Windows. I think I'll have a look at Notable, despite its hating wysiwyg, but I'm not so keen on installing apps through the app. Interesting.-panzer (July 07, 2020, 12:06 PM)
I think I'll have a look at NotableDoes at least include wiki-links since the developer was talked into allowing it.-Dormouse (July 07, 2020, 02:30 PM)
Having a system freely showcases the inherent connections between pieces of information is really attractive. I think Roamresearch and Obsidian are getting closer to that.The graphs are interesting. Pretty, even if they're not very useful yet. Can zoom in. Quite a lot of examples on the Obsidian discord channel. They will become much more powerful. I assume Roam has similar, though I've not been interested enough to look.-sphere (July 08, 2020, 10:35 AM)
https://notes.andymatuschak.org
This website design is so incredible. I want this. How can I do this?-superboyac (July 02, 2020, 05:45 PM)
User rhezab said the following :
"I currently use Andy Matuschak's [1] system, using his note-link-janitor script [2] to generate backlinks and Typora to edit. The only thing Obsidian adds is the graph view for me, but it seems that Obsidian generates backlinks using file name, not title. I prefer linking by title. Perhaps this can be an option? The editor also seems to be lacking a little... for instance I can't seem to render math. Hopefully some of my feedback will be useful to you.
Overall really cool idea, but probably not going to use for now. Will keep tabs, and wish you the best of luck!"
[1] https://notes.andymatuschak.org/About_these_notes [2] https://github.com/andymatuschak/note-link-janitor"
TiddlyWiki + Krystal Theme + a few plugins...
aesadde 40 days ago [–]...I believe you can use this Gatsby theme to get the behavior you're looking for https://github.com/aravindballa/gatsby-theme-andy "
for instance I can't seem to render mathObsidian renders math perfectly well now.-sphere (July 08, 2020, 03:08 PM)
It does also seem to have a huge following that will likely drive it as wellVery true. There appear to be hundreds developers eager for the API, all delirious at the prospect of an early alpha/beta that's likely to change before full release. I've little idea what they want to develop, they mostly just seem to want to develop something.-sphere (July 08, 2020, 02:34 PM)
However, in theory it means I might be able to use that scripting to automate some of my workflow going forward, and if I am lucky, incorporating that vast amounts of files I have scattered in different formats.And presumably the same would be possible through the Obsidian API.-sphere (July 08, 2020, 02:34 PM)
Someone else mentioned TiddlyWiki + Krystal Theme + a few plugins...-sphere (July 08, 2020, 03:08 PM)
With its popularity yes. Also the fact that there is an audio plugin among the first crop of plugins is promising. So many markdown-centric apps want text only ( for obvious reasons) but having the ability to make audio memos.... makes me feel this might be different. However, it is possible that markdown will win out.However, in theory it means I might be able to use that scripting to automate some of my workflow going forward, and if I am lucky, incorporating that vast amounts of files I have scattered in different formats.And presumably the same would be possible through the Obsidian API.-sphere (July 08, 2020, 02:34 PM)-Dormouse (July 08, 2020, 04:50 PM)
If you work plainly with text, which is fine for capturing your thoughts- this looks pretty amazing. However I find myself thinking how do I get other things in it?Underlying question: what different ways can something be "in" the system? What way is most useful for what content?-sphere (July 08, 2020, 07:28 PM)
Most of what you listed can already be "in" a plaintext noteAnd one of the aspects I like is that the note itself isn't "in" the system. It can simultaneously be "in" many systems so long as conflicting changes are avoided. Work in one program, save before switching to another.-Nod5 (July 09, 2020, 03:12 AM)
Obsidian looks as if it will grow into a great spider, with any number of mites on its back, but lays no claim to own any of the notes.-Dormouse (July 09, 2020, 04:21 AM)
Underlying question: what different ways can something be "in" the system? What way is most useful for what content?
Most of what you listed can already be "in" a plaintext note in the minimal sense of adding a reference/link to it.
But I assume you want more than that. For example, the full plaintext content of a PDF file added as a note on par with the other markdown notes? So that that content becomes searchable and linkable at some more fine grained resolution (chapters/paragraphs/sentences/words).
Or a way to embed an audio file, shown as a playback control with pause play and a slider at a specific position in the notes? Or some other way?
We can think of internal and external links. Internal links are resolved inside the software. For example a link in a MD file that links to a section in another MD file. External links point to everything else, items in the local filesystem, or LAN or Internet.
Most of what you listed can already be "in" a plaintext noteAnd one of the aspects I like is that the note itself isn't "in" the system. It can simultaneously be "in" many systems so long as conflicting changes are avoided. Work in one program, save before switching to another.-Nod5 (July 09, 2020, 03:12 AM)
Obsidian looks as if it will grow into a great spider, with any number of mites on its back, but lays no claim to own any of the notes.-Dormouse (July 09, 2020, 04:21 AM)
I am curious what other systems you use and to what purpose.My system is only starting to evolve. Hesitant to put too much weight on it when I know that Obsidian could be very different in 6 months.-sphere (July 09, 2020, 10:10 AM)
Are the MD files taged somehow to indicate that they are linked to other filesMultiple links to other files and notes in most md documents. Read by any program that can interpret md.-sphere (July 09, 2020, 10:07 AM)
I am curious what other systems you use and to what purpose.My system is only starting to evolve. Hesitant to put too much weight on it when I know that Obsidian could be very different in 6 months.-sphere (July 09, 2020, 10:10 AM)
So I have WriteMonkey 3 sharing some files with Obsidian. They are in the WM database with the synced copy accessible to both. In Obsidian those files are linked to many other notes related to the MSS being written.
I prefer writing in WriteMonkey and its incredibly convenient to have all the related gubbins networked together and visible in Obsidian.
I also have the folder with those texts open in ProWritingAid simply to aid analysis as I progress.
Naturally I also write notes in other apps, especially on Android, and they're transferred into the folders of the Obsidian vaults.-Dormouse (July 09, 2020, 01:38 PM)
GitJournal has just added wiki style links for compatibility with Foam, Obsidian etc.Had a quick look. Not super impressed. Doesn't use the syntax that works elsewhere for colour and font size. Didn't see the wikilink working.-Dormouse (July 09, 2020, 01:53 PM)
What’s Wrong with Markdown?(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/2Signs/signs101.gif)
https://www.adamhyde...wrong-with-markdown/-panzer (July 09, 2020, 08:52 PM)
So, one thing I found out about using VS code for editing- the editor isn't actually plain text. I was writing up some e-mails in response to a couple of action items that I had in a note, planning to transfer it to gmail to send. When I copied and pasted the text, it came in formatted like it is in VS Code. Just thought it was a jarring thing that some might find interesting. In no way a deal breaker, but just something to be aware of.that's super weird. Kind of cool, if it could be a feature you can manually control.-wraith808 (July 11, 2020, 11:22 AM)
yes indeed lol.What’s Wrong with Markdown?(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/2Signs/signs101.gif)
https://www.adamhyde...wrong-with-markdown/-panzer (July 09, 2020, 08:52 PM)
I enjoyed reading this, but it stopped so quickly.
I think he could make it a weekly blog for a few years and then bundle it up into a book.-Dormouse (July 10, 2020, 04:47 AM)
My dream is that something like markdown text files can be used to create live websites, similar to what andy matsuchack has going on in his blog that he won't share with anyone.-superboyac (July 12, 2020, 04:40 PM)
Pico generates the files on the fly. I upload Markdown, and it stays as Markdown. It's just rendered in the browser.PICO FOR THE WIN!! awesome...i swear i searched for hours sheesh-wraith808 (July 12, 2020, 08:29 PM)
I find Markdown attractive for writing on the computer. The guy has good points.I think he's writing out of long experience and frustration.
Part of the attraction is that developers have been trying to use markdown to create nice gui's for writing, like zettlr. It's very satisfying to see all the colors and headings change by putting the pound or asterisk symbol, etc.
It's nice that a lot of people have latched on to the format, and we all feel we can use these text files to get around in life. I think part of this guy's comments doesn't appreciate the aesthetics of the writing community.
But again, on a technical level, he has points...and I have struggled very much with the conversion of documents.-superboyac (July 12, 2020, 04:40 PM)
plain text files --> good looking websiteMarkdown should certainly be good at this. It's part of what it was designed for and most websites accept markdown. PICO looks like a reasonable option for designing a website purely for your own documents, though there's a lot of techie type setting up. Obsidian will be adding it as a (paid) option in the next few months, but I think it will need to be simpler for many users (many Obsidian users appear to be programmers, IT students or techie other - but many are at the other end of the techie spectrum).-superboyac (July 12, 2020, 04:40 PM)
PICO looks like a reasonable option for designing a website purely for your own documents-Dormouse (July 13, 2020, 05:24 AM)
Why do you say 'purely for your own documents'?Poor phrasing.-wraith808 (July 13, 2020, 09:35 AM)
Dendron is a local-first, markdown based, hierarchical note-taking application built on top of VSCode and friends:
https://github.com/dendronhq/dendron-panzer (July 13, 2020, 03:24 PM)
Man, I have to say I am VERY impressed by the slick interfaces these people are coming up with. It's like you want all the good bits of each in one.Dendron is a local-first, markdown based, hierarchical note-taking application built on top of VSCode and friends:
https://github.com/dendronhq/dendron-panzer (July 13, 2020, 03:24 PM)
Not using it wholesale, but there were some really good extensions that I'd not seen. I've found that the major advantage of using VS code- the fact that I can mix and match functionality.
From this one, I am using:
Paste Image - https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=mushan.vscode-paste-image
- lets you directly paste an image into the document, and it will create the image file and insert the link.
Markdown Shortcuts - https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=mdickin.markdown-shortcuts
- adds a lot of shortcuts for commonly used commands to the command line. Also does some pretty interesting formatting of pre-existing text.-wraith808 (July 13, 2020, 04:55 PM)
Man, I have to say I am VERY impressed by the slick interfaces these people are coming up with. It's like you want all the good bits of each in one.-superboyac (July 13, 2020, 11:04 PM)
...Markdown Mapper, and is a command-line utility, written in R (see below) and open-sourced under the GPLv2 license, that reverse-engineers concept maps from plaintext notes.
How it works
Markdown Mapper treats each line / paragraph of text as a node in the network. It goes through the text, file-by-file and then line-by-line, making inferences about which lines are related to which other lines by looking at tags and text structure (e.g., with the indentation of list-items). As it goes, it creates an edge list, a table with three columns: From, To, and Relationship, where the From and To columns are lines of text from the input file(s), and the Relationship column is the relationship between them (e.g., Parent, List item, Tag, Contains Type of Thought, etc.). It then uses the qgraph package to draw a quick-view graph from the edge list, and the igraph package to create an adjacency matrix (a tablular version of an edge list, where the row and column names are lines of text from the input file(s), and each cell has a 1 wherever the lines have a relationship), if the user has asked for one.
As it goes along, Markdown Mapper also hard-wraps the text Hard-wrapping = inserting a line break. every 20 or so characters, in order to make the text nodes more rectangular (this keeps each node from displaying as one long line of text).
I've been using Zettlr for my zettelkasten. I started it in January this year and have so far written 713 notes.
Forgive me for I haven't read all 25 pages of this topic, but it seems to me like discussion here is mostly around note taking software and not zettelkasten as a method?-Attronarch (July 19, 2020, 11:00 AM)
here is mostly around note taking software and not zettelkasten as a method?The thread has been an interactive developmental conversation. It's not about note taking apps, it's not about zettelkasten. It's at least as much about plaintext or databases Vs files.-Attronarch (July 19, 2020, 11:00 AM)
There's just a lot of random interspersion about new software- not that I mind, but all of it has sort of littered the thread.I don't see any random posts or any littering. It's a conversation, people write what feels relevant to them at the time.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 03:10 PM)
It might be good to separate out the software into a different thread.I'd certainly not want anything split out, because that would lose the to and fro of the conversation.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 03:10 PM)
So how do you guys deal with images?Obsidian has an option to have attachments folders, and I use that. It keeps things together which makes it easier to manage backups.
Do you place them in the same folder as the txt notes? or in a subfolder?-superboyac (July 19, 2020, 03:36 PM)
There's just a lot of random interspersion about new software- not that I mind, but all of it has sort of littered the thread.I don't see any random posts or any littering. It's a conversation, people write what feels relevant to them at the time.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 03:10 PM)It might be good to separate out the software into a different thread.I'd certainly not want anything split out, because that would lose the to and fro of the conversation.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 03:10 PM)
There's nothing to stop someone starting a thread about note-taking software or about zettelkasten.-Dormouse (July 19, 2020, 03:39 PM)
So how do you guys deal with images?
Do you place them in the same folder as the txt notes? or in a subfolder?-superboyac (July 19, 2020, 03:36 PM)
I'd say the thread is very much on the topics of "going primitive with discursion into zettelkasten".Certainly feels like that to me.-tomos (July 19, 2020, 04:59 PM)
It's very easy to note them, so I'd be surprised if you missed them.I just see them as part of the conversation. Has been the first mention of some interesting sites and software.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 04:30 PM)
It's very easy to note them, so I'd be surprised if you missed them.I just see them as part of the conversation. Has been the first mention of some interesting sites and software.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 04:30 PM)-Dormouse (July 20, 2020, 07:09 PM)
thanks everyone for the image suggestions. I don't know what I'll do yet, I'm just going to do anything right now, no standards.There's just a lot of random interspersion about new software- not that I mind, but all of it has sort of littered the thread.I don't see any random posts or any littering. It's a conversation, people write what feels relevant to them at the time.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 03:10 PM)It might be good to separate out the software into a different thread.I'd certainly not want anything split out, because that would lose the to and fro of the conversation.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 03:10 PM)
There's nothing to stop someone starting a thread about note-taking software or about zettelkasten.-Dormouse (July 19, 2020, 03:39 PM)
There are interjections of just software postings in a lot of places from people that don't really take part in the other parts of the conversation. It's very easy to note them, so I'd be surprised if you missed them.So how do you guys deal with images?
Do you place them in the same folder as the txt notes? or in a subfolder?-superboyac (July 19, 2020, 03:36 PM)
I stayed away from images, but have started using them with that paste image extension that I've added to VS Code. I put them in a subfolder whereever the note is rather than a central location.-wraith808 (July 19, 2020, 04:30 PM)
I have 2 book ideas to work on and I want to try it out on them.-superboyac (July 21, 2020, 10:37 PM)
neuron is a future-proof command-line app for managing your plain-text Zettelkasten notes:this is interesting....it looks like a Pico type thing where it can make a website from your notes, and the author's site is quite nice!!
https://neuron.zettel.page/
https://github.com/ihsanturk/neuron.vim-panzer (July 28, 2020, 12:16 PM)
Not so smooth on Android, but I remain hopeful that will be sorted around the end of the year.-Dormouse (July 28, 2020, 06:03 PM)
Roam Monkey:
https://roamresearch.com/#/app/roamhacker/page/jI-X_cwaf-panzer (August 12, 2020, 01:00 AM)
The boom in interest in both Roam and Obsidian, and various third-party stuff, is both good and bad. Good in that great things will probably come out of it. But bad in that things are still so much up in the air that we don't know how much these tools will change 6 months from now. So I still find it hard commit to either ATM, since which one (or other) I will prefer in the not so distant future probably depends on features not yet there or not yet refined. I'm kind of stuck in test drive mode 8)-Nod5 (August 13, 2020, 02:18 PM)
The boom in interest in both Roam and Obsidian, and various third-party stuff, is both good and bad ...I don't think of Obsidian as a commitment at all. I see the files as a commitment - and my system of creating and managing them. I'm happy to use other programs in addition to or instead of.
which one (or other) I will prefer in the not so distant future probably depends on features not yet there or not yet refined. I'm kind of stuck in test drive mode-Nod5 (August 13, 2020, 02:18 PM)
That's one advantage that Obsidian has over Roam; there's not much in the way of commitment since it sits on top of text files.-wraith808 (August 13, 2020, 04:32 PM)
That's an interesting take on the situation.Are the advantages you're talking about really a distinction between "files" and "databases", or are they separate? I would suggest that in fact you can probably do all or most of what Roam does with "files", or at the least by adding a database *in addition to* the files (i.e. a database that manages the files/interconnections). Which is to say I don't think Roam has any kind of monopoly technologically on the benefits it purports, and Obsidian could replicate all or most with the will and the time put into dev. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
I share concerns about the professionalism of Roam's development. The offline enticement to believers through a PWA, risking data loss if cache is deleted before sync with the online database, just seemed the wrong way for the program to work.
But I hope it does well because a database has advantages that files don't - even if I prefer files for my own use.-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)
One is that he's just substantially expanded the team; I have no experience of development teams, but in other areas it's not unusual for it to take time to become productive rather than a drain on existing resources.Is there any evidence that he did, aside from the customer relations person I think he mentioned?-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)
Hopefully they predicted this and had stuff like the pomodoro already up their sleeves to give an illusion of movement.Does that really track with your knowledge of how Conor has been operating though? That he would somehow develop something in advance but not release it just so he could then release it later to make it seem like there is progress happening during an otherwise slow period? Doesn't sound like it matches with what I've seen, at any rate.-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)
The second is that a huge number of cultists are desperate to fiddle personally with the program. Mostly, it seems to me, because they have a drive to fiddle (enhanced by lockdowns) rather than a particular need.This is true and I have no problem with them doing so, in fact I think it's great. What I was pointing out here was that the RoamMonkey features were, for the most part, *really effing useful* and *should be in the core*. In fact Roam added a new feature a mere few days after that RoamMonkey vid was released which does something similar to the Template feature. It is more powerful than RoamMonkey templates, but unsurprisingly (because it's Roam and Conor) it's *harder and slower to use*. Anyway my point is that this is not someone fiddling just to fiddle, this is a smart person (RoamMonkey author) seeing *important* things missing from Roam and spending his time *as an amateur* to develop them externally.-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)
This keeps them attached. Other programs like Trello have benefited hugely from third party enhancement. And I notice the building excitement in Obsidian over the near-term API release.Trello has an API, as you mention. Obsidian will also have an API. These are reasonable programs to develop for because they give you an appropriate channel to do so. Roam does not, yet. It lets you embed live-read CSS *and* javascript in its fricking pages! That's an insane risk, if I know anything about web tech security. And judging by my own experiences of massive slowdown in experimenting with CSS theming in Roam while the system tried to interpret what I was writing apparently in realtime, I think it's a crappy way to extend a system anyway. Even the RoamMonkey dev admits the fragility of some of the things he's built.-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)
The boom in interest in both Roam and Obsidian, and various third-party stuff, is both good and bad. Good in that great things will probably come out of it. But bad in that things are still so much up in the air that we don't know how much these tools will change 6 months from now. So I still find it hard commit to either ATM, since which one (or other) I will prefer in the not so distant future probably depends on features not yet there or not yet refined. I'm kind of stuck in test drive mode 8)-Nod5 (August 13, 2020, 02:18 PM)
That's one advantage that Obsidian has over Roam; there's not much in the way of commitment since it sits on top of text files. I'm not currently using it though I maintain the same folder structure as when I did- so I can pick it back up if I desire at a later time.-wraith808 (August 13, 2020, 04:32 PM)
Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)
But I can't think of a way to get convenient, reliable transclude atomicity in a set of every changing plaintext files without a paying a price re (2). Seems like something has to give. Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon? Once standardized other note apps would have similar transclude views so there would be less of an lock-in effect to the Obsidian editor.-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)
Unless, of course, those programs all support the same standards. And then it's questionable what value using different programs would have.We could then use one specialized tool (Obsidian) most of the time, with all kinds of bells and whistles (graphs, complex search/filtering designed for the specific file format, ...) but now and then use some other tool (VS Code, AutoHotkey, ...) to access some files and do other operations or formatting on them.-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)
There is a repeated distinction made here between "database" and "file based" ... But as far as I can see a reasonable version of similar functionality can be created using offline, text-based systems with augmentation.True-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)
Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)
I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?
- Oshyan-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM)
the three level approach seems pretty straightforward: raw view, transclude view (resolve transcluded content, resolve UID strings as small icons, dots, color styling or some such) and preview view (fully resolved).Remember, Obsidian is heading for a WYSIWYG, Typora-like, editor. Raw will be an option, but preview will disappear.-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)
Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon?I'm not convinced. Too many blatantly obvious needs have never been addressed.-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)
Yes.Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)
I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?
- Oshyan-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM)
I think the distinction is that there is no need to export. With Roam, you're at their mercy if something happens to the service, which iss one of the reasons that I prefer to work on local plain text files.-wraith808 (August 15, 2020, 01:40 PM)
there is nothing stopping a tool like Obsidian from having a "working database" or sidecar XML files or whatever it needs to support those raw text files to have extra features like block references and transclusions, etc-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)
Octo - a markdown based notes app with hashtag organization:
https://octo.app-panzer (August 30, 2020, 03:54 PM)
There's also Amplenote (https://www.amplenote.com/)geezus h christ almighty
Imports from Evernote, Roam and Markdown. Exports Markdown.
Mostly advertising itself as a secure, encrypted alternative to Roam.
PWA app like Octo; I'm not massively keen on that myself.
Seems to be aimed at tasks and productivity notes, rather than notes in general.
Free trial but no free tier.
The blog (https://www.amplenote.com/blog) is quite interesting.-Dormouse (August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM)
Not for a couple of years I think.There's also Amplenote (https://www.amplenote.com/)will it ever end-Dormouse (August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM)-superboyac (September 05, 2020, 12:55 AM)
My recommendation for users is to make a decision about database or files (or any combination according to preferred workflow), pick the app(s) that seem to suit best for now and then just use it(them). Check alternatives only when hitting an issue. They're all going to change and develop dramatically (some will vanish) and it will be easier to compare in a few years. Everyone is aware of what the others are doing, so the whole herd will add desirable features in a lagged sync.-Dormouse (September 06, 2020, 04:43 AM)
all of these systems pretty much import and export various flavors of markdown.One big advantage of files is that there is no export. I have them and I know what they look like. I never have to worry about changes to what is exported or glitches in the system.-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)
a very clear and important distinction between cloud/SaaS (Roam, Notion) and desktop/offline, perhaps with optional cloud sync (Obsidian, Anytype).I agree that this is an important distinction, but most of the database systems have online availability.-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)
I think this DB or files thing may be a false dichotomy, at least for many people. I've yet to see a compelling real-world example of specific, practical workflows that would necessitate "files" that have no DB component. I think you may feel strongly that your own workflows demonstrate this, so I'd love to hear some examples of how you intend to (or already do) work this way and what significant advantages it brings you (vs. for example an Obsidian plugin that does the same thing as some external tool you use directly on files).For many I agree the distinction is moot. They want all functions within a program and, in practice, a database works better for them. Because for many things a database can work faster or introduce features that are cumbersome in plain standalone files.-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)
I think there are other ways to achieve/solve the feature/functionality desires you have that make you want to work with "files", while still having nothing to do with a files vs. DB distinction.But the distinction is key to being able to use the other programs.-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)
DB componentWriteMonkey 3 operates a hybrid system; JSON database with option for documents to be synced to independent files. That works OK for me.-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)
While I agree with your overall point, again I think this DB or files thing may be a false dichotomy, at least for many people. I've yet to see a compelling real-world example of specific, practical workflows that would necessitate "files" that have no DB component. I think you may feel strongly that your own workflows demonstrate this, so I'd love to hear some examples of how you intend to (or already do) work this way and what significant advantages it brings you (vs. for example an Obsidian plugin that does the same thing as some external tool you use directly on files).-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)
This program called Scapple. It's just a brainstorming tool. You write in bubbles and connect them, that's it. But I have been using it similar to how a zettel works, which is one scapple file per thought.I periodically return to Scapple. It's one of those programs I think ought to suit me (because it's visual) but never quite does in practice. It's very good if it's working for you though. Quite a lot of people are major fans.-superboyac (September 07, 2020, 04:02 PM)
Here's an example .... I think this is better than at least cards on paper. Printing this out would be even better.This program called Scapple. It's just a brainstorming tool. You write in bubbles and connect them, that's it. But I have been using it similar to how a zettel works, which is one scapple file per thought.I periodically return to Scapple. It's one of those programs I think ought to suit me (because it's visual) but never quite does in practice. It's very good if it's working for you though. Quite a lot of people are major fans.-superboyac (September 07, 2020, 04:02 PM)-Dormouse (September 07, 2020, 04:43 PM)
gingkonice....you must be a writer!-wraith808 (September 07, 2020, 08:58 PM)
but not much about *why*I don't get what you're missing. I stated the why above. Because it's portable and usable in other applications at the same time. It's also able to be backed up in whatever format I want, and is not locked into a specific vendor's format. Dormouse stated the same concern. What other 'why' are you looking for that might be missing?-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)
I want to know these specific advantages and use cases for external tools operating on text files.External tools have already been through a competitive process to decide which ones function best for me.-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)
"database vs. text" is a false dichotomyClearly we disagree.-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)
"data ownership" (not a given with a DB, e.g. if it's using an open DB format and/or all content is markdown and it has a robust exporter).Here you are introducing caveats specifying things to be watched for in a database.-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)
"Scapple"? Only some are way more mature than it sounds like it is currentlyScapple is actually an old program. Designed as an adjunct to Scrivener. The simplicity is deliberate.-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)
I'm really interested in specific benefits of direct text editing, but so far I am hearing *that* it is useful and important to you, but not much about *why*. That's OK, it is enough that it *is* important to you, clearly.I've probably tried ALL the mind mapping tools in the last 20 years LOLL. jk....
As far as general advice about how to choose a tool(set) in the current landscape, I maintain my position that "database vs. text" is a false dichotomy. It is definitely more useful IMO to state specific roots of concern that *may* arise from those two paradigms, such as "data ownership" (not a given with a DB, e.g. if it's using an open DB format and/or all content is markdown and it has a robust exporter). Which is part of why I want to know these specific advantages and use cases for external tools operating on text files.
It may simply come down simply to it "feels right". Or is rooted in a more abstract value or moral stance such as unwillingness (perhaps reasonable) to trust a company with your data under any circumstances. That kind of foundational limit will pretty severely restrict your choices, but that's OK if you understand and accept the trade-offs, if that specific value is important enough to you.
In the end whatever helps you be productive is great. It may not help others choose tools as a heuristic for evaluation and decision, but it's certainly a valid stance.
@superboyac, have you played with mind mapping tools? I would imagine so, but don't they work exactly like "Scapple"? Only some are way more mature than it sounds like it is currently... I would go crazy without Search. ;D
- Oshyan-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)
another strange application from back in the day called....liquid story builderNothing comes close to the strangeness of Liquid Story Binder. It worked, if you could learn the techniques, but it was always in the way of any creative flow. It was strangely antiquated even when it first launched.-superboyac (September 08, 2020, 02:15 PM)
i mean if we are talking going primitive....eventually i can end up scirbbling diagrams and saving the images, and those images are my zettel.another strange application from back in the day called....liquid story builderNothing comes close to the strangeness of Liquid Story Binder. It worked, if you could learn the techniques, but it was always in the way of any creative flow. It was strangely antiquated even when it first launched.-superboyac (September 08, 2020, 02:15 PM)
Scrivener also has a steep learning curve, but is a good program. Particularly good for some things, especially if you write in small chunks, but mostly OK and functional. But the Windows version always struggles to keep up. After an extraordinarily long gestation the developer promised the final version would be out around this time last year. Still hasn't made it. But works reasonably well, doesn't lose data and can be used free until it's finished. I've used it from time to time but it has never aided creativity, just getting the job done.
And not really designed around screenwriting.
I like Scapple, but I like using a pen and Android tablet more.-Dormouse (September 08, 2020, 03:06 PM)
eventually i can end up scirbbling diagrams and saving the images, and those images are my zettel.I do that!-superboyac (September 09, 2020, 07:22 PM)
Logseq is a local-first, non-linear, outliner notebook for organizing and sharing your personal knowledge base:
https://logseq.com/-panzer (September 11, 2020, 05:37 PM)
Logseq may be the Roam alternative I've been looking for! They've already solved block *and* page embeds as well as syncing/backup (Github). In that sense they're ahead of Obsidian. Very interesting indeed.As an intended Roam equivalent (database outliner; self described as Roam + github) blocks are straightforward. I thought Obsidian now does page embeds, though its not something I've tried to use.-JavaJones (September 11, 2020, 09:37 PM)
Yes, the html version of Logseq will store user's notes using a datascript db instead of markdown or org. There're a lot overheads to sync the plain text with the internal db. Also, we'd like the html version to be used for real-time collaborations in the future.Any more info regarding what that html fs-sync would imply?What I'm thinking about now is that user can save the serialized db to the native file system and load it next time when they open the computer, so there's no need to login, no need to sync using Github or Dropbox.(Imo, would be so cool if logseq would be a org/markdown browser/editor interface ontop of the raw files its built on atm, that also would allow for graph querying of the filesystem org/markdown files.)
Yes, we'll have a desktop app version which will work directly with the native file system.
Logseq also has a public roadmap and API is on the list and being worked on. I don't know how/why but despite being very new, it seems to be further along in some key areas I care about vs. others (even vs. Obsidian in some respects).[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
https://github.com/logseq/docs/projects/1
Even areas I *don't* personally care about but which might drive adoption (and thus help ensure longer-term success) are getting attention, like localization. Does Obsidian have that yet? Or Roam? (I don't think so) Logseq does! Let's not even get started on Notion's localization odyssey. ;D
Maybe I just like the dev and his user engagement so far:
https://twitter.com/logseq
- Oshyan-JavaJones (September 16, 2020, 06:12 PM)
I don't know how/why but despite being very new, it seems to be further along in some key areas I care about vs. others (even vs. Obsidian in some respects).It's features seem to be a better fit for you. A code exchange with Athens is apparently being discussed.-JavaJones (September 16, 2020, 06:12 PM)
localization. Does Obsidian have that yet?Yes, and increasing. Doesn't have the same level of need as some of the others, since they are just documents, so no relevance for quantities etc.-JavaJones (September 16, 2020, 06:12 PM)
Roam vs. Notion:
https://threader.app/thread/1306722418786881536-panzer (September 18, 2020, 05:52 AM)
Roam vs. Notion:
https://threader.app/thread/1306722418786881536-panzer (September 18, 2020, 05:52 AM)
You see who that is by, right? Of course if the creator of Roam talks about Notion, it will be in a deprecating manner. Always check the source...! He has major beef with Notion because they didn't want to collaborate, crowing over things that were preceded in other applications.
https://twitter.com/Conaw/status/1306724750060912642-wraith808 (September 18, 2020, 08:05 AM)
And this is a big reason Conor does not impress me as a founder. He's petty, vain, impulsive, and egotistical.Gates-JavaJones (September 18, 2020, 06:08 PM)
Strange thing is that you could achieve the same thing in Obsidian just as easily.-Dormouse (September 20, 2020, 03:34 AM)
Roam Research valued at $200m in a fund raise where it took $9m outside investment.WHOA!!!-Dormouse (September 17, 2020, 05:25 AM)
WHOAYou have to remember that no-one actually thinks it's worth $200m.-superboyac (September 20, 2020, 02:06 PM)
You have to remember that no-one actually thinks it's worth $200m.-Dormouse (September 20, 2020, 04:31 PM)
the standard valuation of a company is 4 times revenue, and they aren't making $50m a year.That very much depends on the company and prospects (and a host of other things).-wraith808 (September 20, 2020, 05:53 PM)
AH! thanks, yes that is revealing.WHOAYou have to remember that no-one actually thinks it's worth $200m.-superboyac (September 20, 2020, 02:06 PM)
You have a group of investors placing a $9m bet that it will actually be worth a lot more. With Roam's owners trying to give away as little as possible in exchange for circa $10 m.
The key to the price was the success of the believers scheme and $15 a month subscription.
What happens next will depend on how successfully Roam deploy the money.
First steps seem to be teams (collaborations) and an API.-Dormouse (September 20, 2020, 04:31 PM)
The thing they are investing in is the feature users want the least, at least users like us.I don't think he has any significant interest in users who are interested in files. Or markdown. He's interested in knowledge and believes it is built better by people sharing (and I'd have to say there's any number of Obsidian users who just want to put their vaults on the web). I think he's aiming at being the primary host for that endeavour.-superboyac (September 20, 2020, 06:20 PM)
the standard valuation of a company is 4 times revenue, and they aren't making $50m a year.That very much depends on the company and prospects (and a host of other things).-wraith808 (September 20, 2020, 05:53 PM)
Look at the current value of Snowflake-Dormouse (September 20, 2020, 06:04 PM)
For my money, now that it has its foot in the door, I think it will get to being a $ billion company.-Dormouse (September 20, 2020, 07:24 PM)
It might come in somewhere at the 100s of millionsAlready there.-wraith808 (September 20, 2020, 08:12 PM)
It might come in somewhere at the 100s of millionsAlready there.-wraith808 (September 20, 2020, 08:12 PM)-Dormouse (September 20, 2020, 09:17 PM)
I'd dispute that figure above, which is why I don't really count it as already there currentlyWhy would you dispute it?-wraith808 (September 24, 2020, 10:21 AM)
Back in the day valuations made senseValuations have never made sense, they're simply transactional. The point at which buyers and sellers are prepared to meet.-panzer (September 24, 2020, 10:32 AM)
Tesla is worth 360 billion $ and it only made its first profit this year.Hmm. This is tougher. The volatility in Tesla's price (up and down), plus the relatively low level of free stock implies that it would be more accurate to calculate a valuation range.
Madness.-panzer (September 24, 2020, 10:32 AM)
I'd dispute that figure above, which is why I don't really count it as already there currentlyWhy would you dispute it?-wraith808 (September 24, 2020, 10:21 AM)
It ought to be a simple calculation. Investors paying $9m for ? = $200m valuation means ? = 4.5% of the enterprise, post investment. Always possible it was actually $9m for 5% of the business as it was, in which case the calculation ought to have been (9x20)+9 = 189 which is still pretty close.
Not seen anything about other conditions, options etc though I'd expect there are some. But it's hard cash he's already spending.
You can't get a better test of value than people paying hard cash for something.-Dormouse (September 24, 2020, 11:20 AM)
central banks are pumping money into economy like crazyYes, though not so much in Europe.-panzer (September 24, 2020, 10:32 AM)
you look at revenues over time to see the worth of a companyIf you try to do this, you will end up losing money.-wraith808 (September 24, 2020, 11:52 AM)
you look at revenues over time to see the worth of a companyIf you try to do this, you will end up losing money.-wraith808 (September 24, 2020, 11:52 AM)
Sales are part of the picture.
Profits, if you are able to work out what they really are, make another part.
Assets a third.
But if you buy a business, you will never get the sales or profits it made in prior years. You only have a right to what will happen in the future, so you have to predict.
The stock market, especially tech, had been too high for a few years before the dot.com bust. Buying at the top always loses you money for a few years however well you try and calculate value. Despite that, if you'd held a balanced portfolio of tech stocks then till now, do you really think you'd be poorer now?
The thing to remember about emerging industries is that it is very hard to predict which businesses will be the big winners. Some will stutter, some will meander, but most will fail.
The Roam valuation is based simply on an evaluation that they might be a big winner. $9m is nothing to get in at the base level. The investors will be aware it will probably fail, but they know that the small number of bug winners more than pays for the losers.-Dormouse (September 24, 2020, 12:29 PM)
HoardArchive (the large reserve pool)InboxVestibule (small pool ready to power processing)SourcesLibrary (archive that's been processed in the production of Notes)
Scriptorium (notes and all other unpublished material I have written myself, essentially work in progress at all stages)
Reading Room (my published work)
Attics (processed items not considered worth keeping in Library - I realised that simply putting them in Archive (unprocessed) or throwing them away completely might mean that they were processed again in future because they give initial impression of being interesting).
Chapter House - for anything requiring action: todo lists, emails etc.-Dormouse (May 31, 2020, 10:45 AM)
Just rearranging deck chairs,agree...rigid and flexible to the exact degree you prefer.
trusting I'm not on a Titanic design.
I was heavily into tags and links with few folders. I came to realise that there was little gain from that when a tag was categorical with boundaries that were rarely crossed. So I've shifted notes around so that some are in sub-folders. Creates the option if making them vaults, even if I don't see a need right now.
It's also highlighted the dependence of nearly all designs on folders, even where tags can do a better job. If I could cut and dice tag views in the same way I can folders, I would have had no temptation to change. As things stand with many programs, the most flexible visual options come from using both folders and tags together.-Dormouse (September 25, 2020, 06:31 PM)
I've also given a lot of thought to names. It's important that I know instantly what a folder is for - so nothing I don't instantly recognise - and the physical analogies work well for me. They also need the right vibe because that helps me work better. Its a very personal set of preferences.-Dormouse (September 25, 2020, 12:14 PM)
I know how it works, working at a financial reporting institution. I'm just saying that the 200m valuation is high based on the fact that we do know. And standards indicate that it is a percentage of the sales+assets-liabilities over a period of time. It's a standard and known fact.-wraith808 (September 24, 2020, 02:31 PM)
That’s an extremely interesting approach. It has echos of an older technique that’s usually referred to as a ‘memory palace,’ where one’s classification of stored information is mentally linked to mnemonic imagery that most often takes the form of rooms and places in a real or imaginary building, or the landmarks found along a familiar walk.-40hz (September 28, 2020, 08:53 AM)
I saw that referenced on an episode (the last episode maybe) of the Librarians. I didn't realize that it was a real thing.-wraith808 (September 28, 2020, 10:05 AM)
It has echos of an older technique that’s usually referred to as a ‘memory palace,’You're right. I hadn't made that link myself. But many common aspects.-40hz (September 28, 2020, 08:53 AM)
Another rabbit hole for me to go down!It's a very powerful and successful technique. I wish you well.-wraith808 (September 28, 2020, 01:47 PM)
But it takes some planning and a commitment to regular practice.-40hz (September 28, 2020, 11:38 AM)
40hz! Great to see you here again.-JavaJones (September 28, 2020, 07:17 PM)
Institutional investors, being bound by concerns about fiduciary responsibility and reputation, need to be more cautious than individual and small investors who my chose to take an occasional ‘flyer’ and hope for the best.And the opportunity is here:
And who knows? Sometimes long shots do pay off. Just so long as you can responsibly afford the risk - and understand it’s more akin to gambling than investing - there’s no harm done.-40hz (September 28, 2020, 09:01 AM)
Since our last update, veryone's been asking whether or not they can invest in Roam! We are currently preparing the paperwork, via WeFunder, and we'll be giving first dibs to Believers. We want everyone in the broader community to also have the chance to invest.
Since we don't want to go public, the government is making us jump through a lot of hoops to make equity available to those aren't accredited investors. So stay tuned as we jump through those hoops for you!
Hope to see you visit more regularly- it's not been the same without you! :Thmbsup:-wraith808 (September 29, 2020, 03:09 PM)
Hey! Look who's back!! Great to see my good friend!!Hope to see you visit more regularly- it's not been the same without you! :Thmbsup:-wraith808 (September 29, 2020, 03:09 PM)
Probably a lot less discursive and wordy too. ;) :-[-40hz (September 29, 2020, 09:07 PM)
Hey! Look who's back!! Great to see my good friend!!
(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/piwo.gif)-40hz (September 29, 2020, 09:07 PM)
Good seeing you and some of the Vieille Garde regulars again. It’s been far too long. I definitely missed the civility and high level of discourse that characterizes DC’s forum. This place is like an oasis of civilization compared to some of the online circles I’ve (more of necessity than choice) been moving in lately. It’s refreshing. :)-40hz (September 29, 2020, 11:49 AM)
While 40hz may not have been "away" for that long, it does feel that way sometimes.-Shades (September 29, 2020, 11:07 PM)
Hope to see you visit more regularly- it's not been the same without you! :Thmbsup:-wraith808 (September 29, 2020, 03:09 PM)
Probably a lot less discursive and wordy too. ;) :-[-40hz (September 29, 2020, 09:07 PM)
Good seeing you and some of the Vieille Garde regulars again. It’s been far too long. I definitely missed the civility and high level of discourse that characterizes DC’s forum. This place is like an oasis of civilization compared to some of the online circles I’ve (more of necessity than choice) been moving in lately. It’s refreshing. :)-40hz (September 29, 2020, 11:49 AM)
Should these current posts from 40hz not be transferred to the thread (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=40373.msg392055#msg392055) for hearing from members that haven't been active when DC celebrated being online for 10 years? While 40hz may not have been "away" for that long, it does feel that way sometimes. ;D-Shades (September 29, 2020, 11:07 PM)
In our excitement at reunion, let us not forgot Codex.-JavaJones (September 30, 2020, 06:28 PM)
In our excitement at reunion, let us not forgot Codex.-JavaJones (September 30, 2020, 06:28 PM)
I watched a few of the videos. It all seems a bit stream of consciousness from what I’ve seen so far. Is there a design document for it that's available to read? Maybe I haven’t watched the right video - or enough of them yet. But I’m having a little trouble getting my head around the central paradigm and design of the thing.-40hz (September 30, 2020, 08:09 PM)
In our excitement at reunion, let us not forgot Codex.-JavaJones (September 30, 2020, 06:28 PM)
I watched a few of the videos. It all seems a bit stream of consciousness from what I’ve seen so far. Is there a design document for it that's available to read? Maybe I haven’t watched the right video - or enough of them yet. But I’m having a little trouble getting my head around the central paradigm and design of the thing.-40hz (September 30, 2020, 08:09 PM)
Pico theming is pretty complicated. I'm currently using Skull (https://github.com/bananana/skull)on my site, and really like it. I tried pure (https://github.com/narcis-radu/pico-pure)for a while, and it's not bad, but skull was more to my liking. Ohters I tried, were clutter (https://github.com/alan-luo/clutter), dimension (https://github.com/BesrourMS/dimension), notepaper (https://github.com/mayamcdougall/NotePaper/releases) (example (http://development.mayamcdougall.me/pico-themes/NotePaper/)), and story (https://github.com/BesrourMS/story) (example (https://demos.freehtml5.co/story/)).Now I'm looking at Grav. I heard it's like Pico but better in some ways.
I was seriously thinking that NotePaper was going to be it- I had it up and running on a different site. But I found the concepts of the theme constrained how I published, and didn't really like it. But you're right, because of the use of twig (https://twig.symfony.com/), it's a bit more complicated that it seems, even if a lot more powerful because of it. Once you get it down, it's pretty easy, though.-wraith808 (October 03, 2020, 07:02 PM)
first suggestion was Pico CMS...i tried it, it's good...I'm sticking with this one, it seems to check all the boxes.-superboyac (October 03, 2020, 06:30 PM)
For Neuron, I really like it and want to use it. But I want it accessed through my domain, not my github site. This is where I'm stuck.-superboyac (October 03, 2020, 08:12 PM)
I tried syncing files, and it is working as I desired!!???-superboyac (October 03, 2020, 08:12 PM)
Ideally, I want Neuron but with ability to just sync md files like pico. You can do it, but i think only with github.
If that guy would release his website code, Andy Matsuchashik, then that would be cool too.
Just trying to get an auto-published markdown site, with a dark theme, single column. that's all.-superboyac (October 03, 2020, 08:03 PM)
Do you sync the MD files to neuron or Github? And does the github repo have to be public?I didn't want to use github because I don't like the way it syncs. Also, I don't know how to sync my local server files with github, as I have neuron running on a local server.-wraith808 (October 04, 2020, 03:51 PM)
Use title IDs when you want truly future-proof link IDs that work on any text editor. However, note that this comes at the cost that you are willing to rename them (manually or using a script) across your Zettelkasten if the title ID of any of your notes changes.
If you don't want the headache of renaming html files constantly....use the ID.md filenamesI use PhraseExpress shortcuts to produce the zet style date/time UIDs, one in a ###### header. I can then add any title text I want either before or after the ID. Any text expander should do this.
If you want a descriptive html filename...use a descriptive md file.-superboyac (October 05, 2020, 12:43 AM)
For neuron, this would work, but if you change the title of the note (like the title INSIDE the note or the title meta) then the html filename won't be updated. So the original html filename stays the same.If you don't want the headache of renaming html files constantly....use the ID.md filenamesI use PhraseExpress shortcuts to produce the zet style date/time UIDs, one in a ###### header. I can then add any title text I want either before or after the ID. Any text expander should do this.
If you want a descriptive html filename...use a descriptive md file.-superboyac (October 05, 2020, 12:43 AM)
So, I can have descriptive titles and UIDs in the same title.-Dormouse (October 06, 2020, 04:54 AM)
Encyclopedia of note taking apps:Idiosyncratic selection of a few mostly recent apps so far,
https://www.noteapps.info/-panzer (October 09, 2020, 03:15 PM)
@Conaw has won Twitter, cornering the the market on note app hype.
This site is maintained by a professional researcher who is paid by Amplenote.
Encyclopedia of note taking apps:people should scour this thread and theyll find a more comrehensive list of apps here.
https://www.noteapps.info/-panzer (October 09, 2020, 03:15 PM)
Encyclopedia of note taking apps:people should scour this thread and theyll find a more comrehensive list of apps here.
https://www.noteapps.info/-panzer (October 09, 2020, 03:15 PM)
I can put it all neatly together in a post that would already be better. LOL.-superboyac (October 10, 2020, 08:51 PM)
I think the problem is in the workingdirectory-superboyac (October 11, 2020, 04:08 PM)
yes that worked! i had to modify a couple of things, but mainly i had to add the full path.I think the problem is in the workingdirectory-superboyac (October 11, 2020, 04:08 PM)
Sounds like systemd can’t find the script.
Check the full path of the neuron directory. Is anything missing? Is user1 inside another folder?
for example, try:
/root/home/user1/neuron
for your working directory entry.-40hz (October 12, 2020, 06:09 PM)
they have a features filter so you can quickly find a most appropriate software for you:Problem is that they're wrong or misleading. They have Obsidian up now so I could just read to see how bad it is. Even by the standards of internet reviews, I'd regard it as a very shoddy job.
https://www.noteapps.info/features-panzer (October 11, 2020, 01:39 AM)
they have a features filter so you can quickly find a most appropriate software for you:Problem is that they're wrong or misleading. They have Obsidian up now so I could just read to see how bad it is. Even by the standards of internet reviews, I'd regard it as a very shoddy job.
https://www.noteapps.info/features-panzer (October 11, 2020, 01:39 AM)-Dormouse (October 17, 2020, 06:32 PM)
OK guys, after almost two years of following this discussion, I have achieved the setup that accomplishes the goal I originally wanted....to be able to write books quickly, the way i heard about that luhrman guy. The key is neuron for me as being able to see the website updated instantly as i type has been the most motivating feature for me. Amazing stuff.
I seem to be using Obsidian mostly for writing. Truly amazing setup, i have yearned for this for maybe 15+ years, you can see my posts here lolll.-superboyac (October 17, 2020, 04:35 PM)
for example, with neuron, there is a nice feature where you can use triple brackets in addition to normal linking (double brackets). What this accomplishes is a more important kind of "link" than the regular links. Regular links will work as expected. These triple bracket links do the same, except on the index page that gets automatically generated, it will create a heirarchy (tree) based on the triple links. So you can control this, wheras the other links cannot be controlled in such a fashion (normal links won't affect this heirarchy).-superboyac (October 18, 2020, 02:48 PM)
But not sure if I'd want to be done with *even more brackets*. 😄 I already find double brackets annoying enough. But yeah, I like the root idea.-JavaJones (October 18, 2020, 06:24 PM)
It's not proprietary. This guy is furthest from that as possible. The triple bracket is simply an optional functional workaround to match better than luhrman's method of branching topics. I think all the zettel software have certain workarounds, I don't think you can escape it.-superboyac (October 19, 2020, 01:40 AM)
I see. But I still see it as inescapable. All the tools out there are doing something to deal with links, tags, etc.-superboyac (October 19, 2020, 12:16 PM)
I have achieved the setup that accomplishes the goal I originally wantedCongratulations!.-superboyac (October 17, 2020, 04:35 PM)
Tag syntax isn't standard markdown is it?-Dormouse (October 19, 2020, 04:06 PM)
I'm in two minds over extending markdown. As far as I can tell it's been standard practice for a long time and it's the only way to add functions elegantly. otoh it's a pita when apps disagree.
I find some standard markdown with two syntaxes for the same thing distinctly kludgy and some looks like poor design choices - but they're what we have, like qwerty and MS shortcuts.
Obsidian has just introduced block references. By definition that's another markdown extension.
For my money, old markdown has no way of coping with the new PKM uses and so those apps have to adopt their own usage. Preferably with some sort of tacit agreement, in the end, about what those extensions will be.
I prefer [[ ]], so I'm pleased it's becoming a standard, even if it hasn't broken through to editors yet. Editors won't understand other extensions, but that doesn't really matter because they probably won't have that functionality either, and if they decide to add it they will presumably go with the syntax that's been newly established.-Dormouse (October 19, 2020, 04:06 PM)
I like the general idea of adding todos quickly and with relatively little structure along the way when in just-get-text-out writing mode and then use some such tool later to help overview and act on tasks orderly, via kanban or some other method.I've not used it and I've never been a big users of todos, though I play with them every now and again.-Nod5 (October 22, 2020, 04:17 PM)
The one problem I've run across dealing with [[]] is how spaces and other things are representedThere seem to be perennial problems with spaces in markdown. And I don't think HTML helps much either.-wraith808 (October 19, 2020, 04:32 PM)
a kanban app that reads todo lines from plaintext files.There was this post too: https://forum.obsidian.md/t/kanban-board-rendered-from-markdown/5184-Nod5 (October 22, 2020, 04:17 PM)
Anytype – an offline-first private alternative to Notion:Yep, I'm in the beta. Mentioned it back on Page 28 :D
https://anytype.io/-panzer (October 28, 2020, 05:26 PM)
Sorry. My bad.Not at all. In fact I wish people asked more about it, nobody seemed to care at the time (or now, I guess). Not Markdown-ey enough perhaps. ;D
I'll go whip myself.-panzer (October 28, 2020, 06:47 PM)
What are people doing with all this information they’re curating and cataloging with these various pieces of software? To what purpose? Or maybe even: to what avail?Most of the time that isn't what I'm doing. Most of what I have is what I write. Stuff I don't write myself is just linked.-40hz (November 14, 2020, 10:58 AM)
Just out of curiosity …
What are people doing with all this information they’re curating and cataloging with these various pieces of software? To what purpose? Or maybe even: to what avail?
I’m more curious about the individual “business” use cases rather than the supporting technology. Technology and solutions that offer varying degrees of utility aren’t that difficult to run down. God knows there’s tons of software out there. But the reasons to employ said technology can sometimes be less obvious. At least to me.
So help me out. What is/are your goal(s). What’s it all for? What are you guys doing with all this information you’re gathering? :)-40hz (November 14, 2020, 10:58 AM)
I want to stay local, I like wikilinks in the text, plus the bits of markup and formatting that I use while writing and editing.
I'm happy for formatting for publication to be separate, but markdown doesn't do that anyway.-Dormouse (November 14, 2020, 04:14 AM)
But I'm sure there is similar software for MarkDown.-Shades (November 14, 2020, 09:34 PM)
Sorry to remain harping on about AsciiDocI'm happy for you to keep on with it.-Shades (November 14, 2020, 09:34 PM)
And for anyone using VS code, I just found a new model built on top of it - Dendron (https://www.dendron.so/). I can't say too much about it yet, but I'm definitely going to take a look to see what's different between that and the others.It's designed to have a strong hierarchy, reflecting a folder structure.-wraith808 (November 18, 2020, 09:55 PM)
@Dormouse- that's a no-brainer for me too. It's one of the reasons that I stopped depending on Obsidian pretty quickly, and moved over to the Frankenstein model that I have (Using Foam and Memo extensions). But the plugins with Visual Studio Code has been working really well for me. I wish that I had the ability to embed references- it's one thing that would have solved some issues I've had. But it has worked out fine, especially with previews inline.-wraith808 (November 18, 2020, 09:55 PM)
As you know, I have a much more nuanced approach to databases.
I'm OK with Writemonkey 3 with its coterminous files. I have my data in files and the extra features that come from the database (which include, I assume, its very good folding). Most writing programs have some sort of database; some also have files and some save much of the data in files.-Dormouse (November 19, 2020, 04:01 AM)
Obsidian has never been totally clear about what is saved where. Some is saved in the vault folder. But a large part has been moved to a json in a system folder.
It talks about vaults, and how every fault is totally separate, but then the data from every vault is in the same system folder in readable format.
It seems hard coded to only look at one location. If it's empty it writes another set.
And it has just announced saved searches. So a reiteration of the same question in my head - 'What is saved, where?'. I'm sure the answer will be that central json, but I'll have to run a few searches and do a file check to see exactly what's there. And will only be quick because I will know what I'm looking for and can do a search.
For me, it's straightforward poor design and not thinking through the implications of choices. Fixing a small immediate problem - today easier, tomorrow harder, and just don't think about next week.
Most of the immediate problems can be overcome. I control what I use it for. I can remove and encrypt the system file between uses (though that would always irritate me). And I can to a detailed test of every update (though they are weekly, more or less; I think I'll make it less going forward, updating is starting to feel too much effort for a small gain).
The big question about any developing software is where it's going to end up and how confident you can be about both quality and direction. This is where I now favour your Frankenstein model, though my version may look completely different to yours. Obsidian might be some part of it, maybe.-Dormouse (November 19, 2020, 04:01 AM)
it seemed that all files were in the Obsidian folder, i.e. if I created files in VS Code, Obsidian seemed to pick it up and pick up the changes if I had both openIt will still do this, and the files themselves are just as they were and in the same location.-wraith808 (November 19, 2020, 07:53 AM)
I apparently (a) haven't kept up with Obsidian changes, or (b) was just unaware that it stored other files in other locations.The big change came, I believe, in 0.8.7 when some files were switched from the vault folder to a system folder. Originally described as some data, and more recently as metadata, the amount stored has steadily increased as features have been added.-wraith808 (November 19, 2020, 07:53 AM)
I might just go ahead and uninstall it as it's sort of withered on the vine in my workflow.No obvious reason why not, if you don't use it.-wraith808 (November 19, 2020, 07:53 AM)
Just out of curiosity …
What are people doing with all this information they’re curating and cataloging with these various pieces of software? To what purpose? Or maybe even: to what avail?
I’m more curious about the individual “business” use cases rather than the supporting technology. Technology and solutions that offer varying degrees of utility aren’t that difficult to run down. God knows there’s tons of software out there. But the reasons to employ said technology can sometimes be less obvious. At least to me.
So help me out. What is/are your goal(s). What’s it all for? What are you guys doing with all this information you’re gathering? :)-40hz (November 14, 2020, 10:58 AM)
Why do we write and write and curate and write?Virtually all the money I've ever earned has depended on my writing. Curating too.-superboyac (November 19, 2020, 12:04 PM)
Why do we write and write and curate and write?Virtually all the money I've ever earned has depended on my writing. Curating too.-superboyac (November 19, 2020, 12:04 PM)-Dormouse (November 19, 2020, 02:37 PM)
What's wrong with us? Why do we write and write and curate and write? I don't know, might be a mental problem.-superboyac (November 19, 2020, 12:04 PM)
“aspiration to achieve omniscience.”Nothing wrong with that. Just one end of a spectrum. The better end usually.-40hz (November 20, 2020, 09:01 AM)
Could you perhaps post your thoughts on some Obsidian forum to see if someone can validate your approach?With any particular outcome in mind?-wraith808 (November 19, 2020, 05:38 PM)
With any particular outcome in mind?-Dormouse (November 20, 2020, 04:41 PM)
I'm sure someone will come up with a better form of plaintext for the average word processor user. It will give up document management and document styling features (the latter are rarely used by most, and the former are little used by the average user) ave but keep the text control and styling. It will give up code blocks. Maybe it will be called marktext.-Dormouse (November 20, 2020, 04:41 PM)
I suspect it could be adequately handled by XMLIf XML were a contender markdown et freres would never have been invented.-40hz (November 21, 2020, 09:56 AM)
I suspect it could be adequately handled by XMLIf XML were a contender markdown et freres would never have been invented.-40hz (November 21, 2020, 09:56 AM)
The number of commands most people need is small, it's just that markdown doesn't include them all, and some of its choices are distinctly odd and hard to use. Apart from other features which presumably fitted Gruber's original idea of purpose and target users, but aren't wanted by most WP users.-Dormouse (November 22, 2020, 04:08 PM)
Have we mentioned Zettlr yet?Oh yes, discussed a lot. I prefer using Zettlr to write my content, fyi. And then I prefer Obsidian to navigate my content. And ultimately, I prefer Neuron to display my content on a website.
https://www.zettlr.com/download/win32
It is a notebook app with markdown designed for writers.
I haven't tried it yet, but I've downloaded it and plan to preview it. (I'm still using TreeDBNotes because I've never found a suitable replacement)-BGM (December 04, 2020, 10:09 AM)
I'm still using TreeDBNotesTreeDBNotes is very different to all of these, so you'd probably need to have decided to move on. And if that's your starting point, you'll know what you want to keep and what you'd like to add.-BGM (December 04, 2020, 10:09 AM)
I prefer using Zettlr to write my content,I'm often not very fussed about what I actually write in. Sometimes my choice will depend on a feature I want for that particular use.-superboyac (December 04, 2020, 12:44 PM)
Another issue is how well the editor/program integrates into a system where there are many types of files. Again I don't think any of them are great for doing this.Yeah, there is a lot of friction to overcome there. I have an AutoHotkey script setup: I put no-markup filepaths or filenames in the plaintext notes. Later I select a whole or part of such a string (or put the cursor inside it) and press a hotkey. The script detects if there is a unique file anywhere matching the string pattern and takes action depending on filetype. E.g. open PDF in pdf viewer, open source code file in VS Code and so on. If multiple files match action alternatives are shown. If no file is matched alternatives to open up a file search in Everything or do a Google search are shown. Since this works on any text selection anywhere I can use the same approach across different apps, local or web based. For example I use it also in notes written in Google Docs, in effect links from Docs to the local filesystem. I considered making it a NANY tool this year but the thing is still evolving and is very tied to my own note taking setup and how I tend to use the target files, so difficult to make into a more general application yet. But I think this kind of customizable inbetween tool is the best option, since it is unlikely that any specific note taking app will also be a best fit for how you want to deal with various other types of files.-Dormouse (December 04, 2020, 07:24 PM)
I prefer Obsidian to navigate my contentWhich features of Obsidian do you use when navigating?-superboyac (December 04, 2020, 12:44 PM)
For navigating, I basically use the sidebar where the files are listed, and the graph webbing view. I like the graph view, but can't really say I use it too much. I look at it there to see how things are connected. However, neuron has a view as a tree hierarchy that does another kind of similar view which I like better.I prefer Obsidian to navigate my contentWhich features of Obsidian do you use when navigating?-superboyac (December 04, 2020, 12:44 PM)-Dormouse (December 07, 2020, 08:12 PM)
Is there a way in obsidian to get a toolbar for markup?I'd suggest just using Typora as your front end until Obsidian has its WYSIWYG editor. They both update fast, meaning they can be used at the same time.-BGM (December 31, 2020, 08:41 AM)
For navigating, I basically use the sidebar where the files are listed, and the graph webbing view.I was interested because I find I'm ignoring most options.-superboyac (December 31, 2020, 12:27 AM)
zettlr also has a toolbarIs there a way in obsidian to get a toolbar for markup?I'd suggest just using Typora as your front end until Obsidian has its WYSIWYG editor. They both update fast, meaning they can be used at the same time.-BGM (December 31, 2020, 08:41 AM)-Dormouse (January 03, 2021, 02:14 PM)
that's a pretty manual process. It would drive me nuts lolll...-superboyac (January 31, 2021, 04:39 PM)
Indexing, I basically use the classic zk of idea of creating a note that links to all the sub-topics. So i create an index note. Multiple index notes can link to the same sub-note, that's fine.I think the difference here is that this part of my process has nothing to do with note-taking or zettelkasten. It's about planning, writing and organising an MSS. If there will be enough for more than one book, moving parts between them so that each one is well structured. Making it easy to see gaps that need filling. Ditto for generating multiple articles from one research programme. And that's the same for a series of articles on aspects of the same issue. Irrelevant if you're hand-to-mouth but essential when you're in a position to plan the series.-superboyac (January 31, 2021, 04:39 PM)
Any whole that splits into multiple sections, with highly detailed components, where each section has a similar structureI've realised that it works for any whole with detailed (markdown) components. Structure is just the way I've been using it.-Dormouse (January 31, 2021, 06:12 PM)
Org-mode-wraith808 (March 02, 2021, 09:00 AM)
I've started to combine a new editor with my VS Code workflow - Deepdwn (https://billiam.itch.io/deepdwn).Looks quite nice, though I'm not sure I have a real use for another editor.-wraith808 (March 13, 2021, 03:24 PM)
txt-as-md plugin-Dormouse (March 19, 2021, 05:00 PM)
Also briefly tested the txt-as-md plugin on a test vault.That's interesting. I see in https://forum.obsidian.md/t/handle-edit-other-plain-text-file-formats-rmarkdown-tex-txt-code-etc/1656/50 that there is discussion about two possible features.-Dormouse (March 19, 2021, 05:00 PM)
Obsidian would expand to be a more general system-of-plaintext-notes editor/viewer. Compare to how VS Code is an editor/viewer for code in different programming languages. That ties in with our previous discussions here for/against the markdown format(s) and alternatives to it.-Nod5 (March 23, 2021, 05:11 AM)
1. Have Obsidian read .txt (and other plaintext) files as if markdown (apply markdown styling, and so on)The plugin does 1, but only partially. It does 2 in the absence of any markdown in the file; up to a point. I'm not convinced that the holes in these will ever fully filled, but I see no chance of 3, although there must be a possibility that a plugin could be written to do this to some extent, maybe.
2. Have Obsidian read .txt as plain plaintext (no markdown styling)
The plugin does 1 AFAICT. But if this gets wings perhaps both 1 and 2 will get implemented, and maybe also a further feature
3. Have Obsidian read files with extension .NNN as some other, perhaps user customized plaintext format that differs from markdown. For example, AsciiDoc.-Nod5 (March 23, 2021, 05:11 AM)
I think a lot of this relates to the direction the developers want to take the application. I haven't seen any indication that they want to make it a general purpose application.-wraith808 (March 23, 2021, 08:08 AM)
I think a lot of this relates to the direction the developers want to take the application. I haven't seen any indication that they want to make it a general purpose application.-wraith808 (March 23, 2021, 08:08 AM)
I'm not sure. I agree it's not their own intent, but they do follow users and are very open to almost anything being done with plugins and frequently consider extending the API to make some plugins possible. But how much can reasonably be done via plugins I have no idea.-Dormouse (March 23, 2021, 09:24 PM)
The big issue I have now in the zettelkasten is the file management.-Dormouse (April 13, 2021, 11:34 AM)
I already stopped using TagSpaces. With largish collections of documents, it really lags.-wraith808 (April 13, 2021, 05:01 PM)
Also noticed that Gingko (https://gingkowriter.com/) is moving to $5 a month with a free trial rather than a document limit.-Dormouse (April 13, 2021, 06:43 PM)
Though I see he's developing v2, and it's a bit pricier- at $10 a month after beta!The email I received seemed to suggest that those paying 5 would just continue unchanged.-wraith808 (April 14, 2021, 08:55 AM)
Though I see he's developing v2, and it's a bit pricier- at $10 a month after beta!The email I received seemed to suggest that those paying 5 would just continue unchanged.-wraith808 (April 14, 2021, 08:55 AM)
But I can see it being worth it for users who are productive with it. There's nothing else like it really.
I might have a look at the new version, but never progressed beyond quite liking the old one.-Dormouse (April 14, 2021, 10:20 AM)
Unless I just didn't pay attention, I never received an e-mail, and I'm a subscriber.That's very odd. I half wondered if they said $10 to those currently paying $5.-wraith808 (April 15, 2021, 02:56 PM)
if you are ...
A current paying customer paying 5$/month or more, your subscription also applies to the new version without any changes.
A customer paying less than 5$/month, you will eventually be asked to upgrade, or close your account. I can't continue to provide my time (in terms of customer support & software development) at that low a rate.
An existing free user, and happy with the service, you will eventually be asked to pay to continue using it.
A desktop version customer that received a number of free months of the web version, you will have those applied to the new web version as well.
The plugin allows .txt to follow markdown styling. It allows links and transclusions, in .txt files. It doesn't allow .txt to be read natively or to be transcluded itself, and links to .txt files have to be typed out in full. Neither are tags in .txt recognised and nor do .txt files appear in graphs. Having hit these limits, I am now wondering how much use I will be able to make of it. For some things it will work fine, but not being able to be transcluded means that the technique of embedding chapters into a file to produce a complete MSS won't work. Of course, there's no difficulty in renaming them all at that point but working out which format to work in at each stage doesn't seem straightforward now; quite a collection of swings and roundabouts.Now looking as if there will be no further development, either into other extensions (unless someone writes a plugin for them) or giving any further Obsidian functionality to .txt files. That means the plugin gives me very little that is useful, which is a bit sad after seeing the possible gains.-Dormouse (March 23, 2021, 09:19 PM)
Tranclusions are another matter. They are, effectively, a property of Obsidin .md files. By continuing to use Obsidian, I won't lose anything I have but I don't have an alternative for other formats.-Dormouse (April 20, 2021, 11:57 AM)
I've seen you talk about Transclusions before, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what they entail. Do you have any examples you'd be willing to share?I'll try to explain, because I think that will be easier.-wraith808 (April 20, 2021, 02:16 PM)
...I use search programs, and imagine that I might end up learning regex, but I'll go no further in that direction than I have to.To ease the pain, I thought this might help:-Dormouse (May 10, 2021, 08:04 AM)
To ease the pain, I thought this might help:Thanks. I'm gathering a list of resources, just in case, so I've added it to that.
How to Learn Regular Expressions
https://www.labnol.org/internet/learn-regular-expressions/28841/-IainB (May 11, 2021, 10:27 PM)
I have OneCommander installed (v2 + v3 beta), and look at it from time to time. The attraction is Miller columns, and that does offer a genuine alternative in the way the file system is presented.My heavy use of nested vaults (folders) requires easy navigation through many layers of folders.-Dormouse (April 13, 2021, 03:03 PM)
Just an update to the programs I'm using.Hey! What did you use to make that diagram?
Files remain central, but I now do no format conversion without explicit reason. This means that if a file starts as an .rtf or .docx it may stay like that and I will work with a program that can use that format. My own writing is usually in .txt.
Most of my files are in Obsidian vaults, with heavy nesting (especially for projects) even when Obsidian cannot read those files. I use wikilinks extensively even when the program I am using cannot interpret them - they are nearly always written with a mind on future use anyway. I use #tags, preferably written in the file but otherwise done using the file explorer; these systems aren't consistent some use metadata, some a database in the folder, but the tags are; not ideal, but I decided in the end that tagspaces was too slow for me. I use search programs, and imagine that I might end up learning regex, but I'll go no further in that direction than I have to.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]-Dormouse (May 10, 2021, 08:04 AM)
What did you use to make that diagram?-superboyac (May 26, 2021, 09:49 AM)
Just seen Speare (https://www.speare.com/) mentioned on the Obsidian discord. For writing in snippets and organising them into larger documents.
Pretty, but no idea how it would stand up to real use. Web app + iOS and Android. Expensive ($60 a year or $15 monthly).
Some aspects remind me of Gingko (https://gingkoapp.com/) but prettier and less useful.
Wouldn't suit me at all, but might interest some.-Dormouse (May 26, 2021, 04:16 AM)
I really like it so far.-wraith808 (May 26, 2021, 12:45 PM)
I've decided to experiment by trying to write a complete book in only one file.It's actually gone very well, which is interesting.
I wouldn't try it with anything except plaintext.
And maybe I wouldn't try it without WM3, which makes restructuring easy.-Dormouse (June 04, 2021, 06:12 PM)
But I'm thinking of switching to WM's project design. Will take me maybe five minutes to switch into that, and maybe half a minute to switch back again, so I'm hardly switching at all. Mostly a question of which view I use to write in.It's not amazing that I have changed my mind again. When mind changing is so easy.-Dormouse (September 24, 2021, 06:52 AM)
I'm sure there's a lot that can go wrongUpdate 1 - Snag for some-Dormouse (October 14, 2021, 05:20 PM)
Via OPML, the formatting doesn't work properly but the headers are thereAnd using manual markdown when writing maintains all the formatting when the OPML is exported ;D Not interpreted correctly in Workflowy, everything but italic recognised in Dynalist.-Dormouse (October 15, 2021, 02:46 PM)
Notezilla 9 has introduced a couple of very useful features:This has now become my Obsidian front-end, especially on mobile.
1. Option to use markdown editor-Dormouse (October 22, 2021, 06:15 AM)
Guys, update on all this:
I'm still using that web portal neuron for reading my notes....it is now called emanote, and even better.
For writing and editing, I use Obsidian.
emanote is awesome.-superboyac (November 09, 2021, 09:11 PM)
Guys, update on all this:
I'm still using that web portal neuron for reading my notes....it is now called emanote, and even better.
For writing and editing, I use Obsidian.
emanote is awesome.-superboyac (November 09, 2021, 09:11 PM)
| https://www.amplenote.com/ | - | - |
| https://get.mem.ai/ | waiting list | - |
| https://cloverapp.co/ | - | - |
| https://acreom.com/ | trialing | - |
| https://www.craft.do/ | - | (mac/appleOS centric) |
| https://www.taskade.com | trialing | - |
| https://reflect.app/ | - | After getting the invite, it's also mac/appleOS centric, and $160/year after a 14 day free trial |
| https://app.milanote.com/ | trialing | Referral Link: https://www.milanote.com/refer/rcDhIUymJWgrLzFgNc |
| https://app.kahana.co/ | trialing | - |
Latest insider version of Obsidian bringsNeat features!-Dormouse (November 22, 2021, 04:38 PM)
Do you know if Obsidian or any competitor by now has an easy way to treat indentation spaces as... indentation spaces. That is, to override the default Markdown rule that treats four space indentation as a code block.I don't think so. Markdown is markdown, and no-one so far has dared to develop a writers' markdown that takes indent priority away from coders.-Nod5 (November 23, 2021, 06:01 AM)
I know about the workaround to use   (stack overflow) but am looking for a built in solution.The built in solutions are using CSS. This works well enough, so long as you are okay with it.-Nod5 (November 23, 2021, 06:01 AM)
I have no idea about the timeline. But I'm using it anyway. There is zero risk of anything happening since it uses plain md files and folder structure. The developer is very dedicated to not having anything become obsolete. He may eventually offer some kind of web hosted app, but not sure about that.Guys, update on all this:
I'm still using that web portal neuron for reading my notes....it is now called emanote, and even better.
For writing and editing, I use Obsidian.
emanote is awesome.-superboyac (November 09, 2021, 09:11 PM)
That looks amazingly clean and simple. Also loads up pages lightning fast. Any idea when it will come out of beta? Would love to try it out on some projects.-Spyrith (November 19, 2021, 02:15 AM)
I can make changes in a text file in obsidianDid you ever say what made you switch from Zettlr to Obsidian?-superboyac (December 07, 2021, 05:51 PM)
map web paneAh.-superboyac (December 07, 2021, 11:51 PM)
I don't use it that much either. But I like having it.map web paneAh.-superboyac (December 07, 2021, 11:51 PM)
That thing I never use-Dormouse (December 08, 2021, 03:05 AM)
Obsidian is also becoming more common overall with users like us,Popularity soaring it seems. Nearly 50k on the Discord last time I looked and I'm not sure most users use it.-superboyac (December 08, 2021, 02:13 PM)
For the most part, Zettlr did everything I wanted, no complaints.Even the recent upgrade is still on CM5. Judging from Obsidian updating to CM6 will be a major effort once it's decided to do it. But will have to be done sometime.-superboyac (December 08, 2021, 02:13 PM)
Live Preview once it's public. That might be a little while since there's still a fair number of bugs being reported and a few major features still to be added.They're hoping to release it imminently it seems. idk. Presumably for Christmas. Still too many issues for inexperienced users, I would have thought, but it works and many prefer it now they have adjusted.-Dormouse (December 08, 2021, 04:11 PM)
They're hoping to release it imminently it seems. idk.Seem to have pulled back a little. Public release (presumably) still imminent, but Live Preview and the new editor will no longer be the default.-Dormouse (December 10, 2021, 06:17 AM)
Live PreviewNow public, with a variety of other improvements that have been introduced recently.-Dormouse (December 13, 2021, 05:19 PM)
Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
It's everything I wanted from a notetaking tool. And it was great keyboard latency, being a native app and not a SASS or an electron app.
Probably the most useful piece of software I have right now.-urlwolf (January 01, 2022, 09:03 AM)
Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?-wraith808 (January 01, 2022, 12:16 PM)
@wraith808: what happened to your interest in Ema Personal Wiki, which you mentioned earlier in this post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=48938.msg433726#msg433726)?Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
[...]-urlwolf (January 01, 2022, 09:03 AM)
Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?-wraith808 (January 01, 2022, 12:16 PM)
bespoke formattingLooks somewhat like org-mode but more longwinded-wraith808 (January 01, 2022, 12:37 PM)
@wraith808: what happened to your interest in Ema Personal Wiki, which you mentioned earlier in this post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=48938.msg433726#msg433726)?Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
[...]-urlwolf (January 01, 2022, 09:03 AM)
Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?-wraith808 (January 01, 2022, 12:16 PM)-rjbull (January 01, 2022, 05:03 PM)
@wraith808: what happened to your interest in Ema Personal Wiki, which you mentioned earlier in this post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=48938.msg433726#msg433726)?Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
[...]-urlwolf (January 01, 2022, 09:03 AM)
Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?-wraith808 (January 01, 2022, 12:16 PM)-rjbull (January 01, 2022, 05:03 PM)
Same thing as this - it uses WikiWords, but it's still bespoke. I like the idea, but I'm firmly in the markdown camp now.-wraith808 (January 02, 2022, 01:22 AM)
That's a pity, as Ema Personal Wiki has an Android version as well as a Windows one. I don't want my data in the cloud, but interoperability is a big plus.-rjbull (January 02, 2022, 03:23 PM)
Double Entry in outlinersThis can be avoided with a robust, but convoluted, workflow.-Dormouse (December 29, 2021, 03:48 PM)
I find markdown a poor choice; the spec is poor (one blog bost!), there are multiple implementations/flavors, and it doesn't have good solutions for tables, embedding video etc (other than reverting to html). It forces apps to run a browser (or worse, embed it) to render it too.-urlwolf (January 03, 2022, 09:10 AM)
For a killer plaintext format, check asciidoc.-urlwolf (January 03, 2022, 09:10 AM)
markdown ... spec is poorMy own observation is that markdown claims to be simple and human readable. But it isn't without a rosetta Stone equivalent. Use of whitespace is a nightmare and that is invisible.
etc (other than reverting to html)-urlwolf (January 03, 2022, 09:10 AM)
Non-markdown format is not a big issue for me as long as it's plain text. There's pandoc. I moved from .md to zimwiki with it, no problems.
Now that we are talking, I find markdown a poor choice; the spec is poor (one blog bost!), there are multiple implementations/flavors, and it doesn't have good solutions for tables, embedding video etc (other than reverting to html). It forces apps to run a browser (or worse, embed it) to render it too.
For a killer plaintext format, check asciidoc. That was my choice before I went back to zim.
Check the plugins for zim too.
Other than collaboration (zim is a single player game), I'm very satisfied. Never been this satisfied with a software choice before.-urlwolf (January 03, 2022, 09:10 AM)
My own observation is that markdown claims to be simple and human readable. But it isn't without a rosetta Stone equivalent.-Dormouse (January 03, 2022, 11:00 AM)
While I agree there are better formats than markdown, I don't even care anymore lol. For me, I have achieved the dream of writing text files any way I wish (as long as it's markdown format loll), in terms of I can do it in a text editor, obsidian, zettlr, who cares. Beautiful! Next, I can have webpages created instantly as I modify. To me, this setup is basically future-proof, and now I'm just creating content.-superboyac (January 17, 2022, 03:30 PM)
How do you guys collaborate with others (if at all) when using plain text? Say real time (like gdocs; MDhack for example) or asynchronoulsly (github for example)?-urlwolf (January 18, 2022, 10:00 AM)
Zim can produce sites that are very similar to what emanote does (if I got it right). I'm seriously considering having a public facing website (and internal docs) in zim.zim is a very nice all in one solution. It does make webpages too! i could see myself replacing onenote with zim. but the website thing, i feel emanote has better features under the hood. and more to come!
The one thing I don't think it solves well is collaboration/molecular permissions.-urlwolf (January 18, 2022, 09:59 AM)
zim https://zim-wiki.org/
It's everything I wanted from a notetaking tool.-urlwolf (January 01, 2022, 09:03 AM)
Check hypernote if you want something zettel-like for the web and with collaboration built in-urlwolf (January 28, 2022, 02:50 PM)
How do you guys collaborate with others (if at all) when using plain text? Say real time (like gdocs; MDhack for example) or asynchronoulsly (github for example)?I don't at all.-urlwolf (January 18, 2022, 10:00 AM)
I want to control what stuff is local and what is on the net. I want to control access. I want to be able to use my stuff on Linux, Android, iOS. Maybe even Mac. I want to be able to work on all my devices. I don't want my workflows constantly disrupted by software updates or bugs.-Dormouse (October 23, 2019, 02:21 PM)
Not quite so convinced by markdown - it's designed around coder habits and needs - but it is ubiquitous. Supplementing it with what I need, or coping with it's design decisions is a constant irritant in my workflow.I've even thought about developing my own editor and markup language. Not seriously, but I have thought about what I'd remove (lots), what I'd improve (eg tables), what I'd add (eg colour, underline) and what I'd extend (eg header levels). Even thought about easiest way of doing it.-Dormouse (February 01, 2022, 06:30 AM)
Very uncomfortable with Obsidian's direction (I'll address that in another post).Very curious, please link here.
https://zenkit.com/en/hypernotes/The second one
Is either one of those what you were referring to?-wraith808 (January 28, 2022, 09:20 PM)
https://zenkit.com/en/hypernotes/The second one
Is either one of those what you were referring to?-wraith808 (January 28, 2022, 09:20 PM)-urlwolf (February 02, 2022, 02:52 PM)
"Before the 2020s, a note was just a note. A note was something you took, used, and tossed.https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/
Let's call this: "Churn and Burn".
But now, in the Age of the [[Linked]] Note things are different. Now notes can grow and evolve with other notes, to form
a living system of related thoughts that you can develop throughout your lifetime.
Let's call this: "Know and Grow".
THE ANSWER ISN'T MORE NOTES... IT'S BETTER NOTES."
Funny that there are people selling products in the 1000s of $ to teach you how to organize your notes.Stunning. Happened with Roam as well, not sure about other apps though one poster from Obsidian seemed to have a least a bit of a go at a Logseq market.-urlwolf (February 03, 2022, 08:13 AM)
Zim is written mostly by one dev, Jaap, who is really amazing and dedicated, but has a fulltime job and does zim on his spare time!-urlwolf (February 03, 2022, 07:15 AM)
It's only when reaching 1000s of notes in zim that I'm starting to value more the advantages of a dynamic graph... with many notes I would love to link them graphically.-urlwolf (February 03, 2022, 07:15 AM)
I have found one potential problem in zim. Graph view is a second class citizen. It's static (can't filter, search, group etc), it's slow to render (>10s for large graphs), and the lead dev doesn't have plans to make it better.-urlwolf (February 03, 2022, 03:26 AM)
If you can convince yourself that it doesn't matter, then by all means you an use any browser-based tool for writing... I can't :)-urlwolf (February 03, 2022, 03:26 AM)
I loaded up the CSS snipped and opened Obsidian with the snippet applied. Then I found a long article and copied and pasted it into MS, just to take a look. There were line endings at the ends of paragraphs which I expected. However, since the markdown code would have to be eliminated to use in word, I ran it through a standard online markdown converter to html. When I pasted it back into MS, the line endings were stripped and the paragraphs ran together, which would be a real headache in a long piece of text.-Rayo, post:14, topic:30851
Very uncomfortable with Obsidian's direction (I'll address that in another post).Very curious, please link here.-urlwolf (February 02, 2022, 04:45 AM)
writing padPrograms I'm tending to use for this are:-Dormouse (February 03, 2022, 12:32 PM)
Workflowy - using the bullets. Fairly new to me as a working method, but the bullets are blocks that are easy to rearrangeAnd when I export formatted and paste into FocusWriter, all the bullets and indent levels disappear and they become normal paragraphs. That feels useful.-Dormouse (February 05, 2022, 05:51 AM)
Students, Computer Science/Programmers, TTRPG players. I’d hoped that the WYSIWYG development of Live Preview would be used to attract a wider range of users, but it seems there’s little interest in doing that.There's a very heavy tech bias in the community, and although it seems to have a reputation for friendliness, my impression is that it's becoming less friendly for the non-tech.-Dormouse (February 04, 2022, 07:24 PM)
Most stuff there are, as a matter of fact, "how-to(s)". Any other steps that aren't outlined are usually highly repetitive, general questions that can be Googled easily ...
Safe to say, Google-fu is an essential skill for everyone interacting with tech, and not just developers. The sooner you get used to it, the better
I found a product I really like: amplenote.I had Amplenote in my slightly interesting group.-urlwolf (February 07, 2022, 09:17 AM)
exports version history https://www.noteapps...port#compare-prefaceI find the noteapps comparisons very interesting, but don't completely trust them as they are funded by Amplenote.
* moving fast, not buggy
* Decent collaboration: https://www.noteapps...tion#compare-preface but not real time nor comments on text in a note
* offline: https://www.noteapps...line#compare-preface-urlwolf (February 07, 2022, 09:17 AM)
The one thing on my Android that I tried to avoid was having to sign in to anything ever just to record my thoughts.Makes sense. I very rarely want to dictate quick notes now, so I don't have a workflow for this at all, but I'd agree that easy and fast are the key elements. Not that dictation is ever that easy for the program.-BGM (February 07, 2022, 11:17 AM)
I use TreeDBNotes - and I've not seen anyone discuss thisI always liked TreeDBNotes. And I'd agree that it is still performs better than many newer alternatives.-Dormouse (February 07, 2022, 09:34 AM)
The PIM aspects of TreeDBNotes were never fully worked out, I think. I only ever use the notes part, but I love it.Agreed. x2.-BGM (February 07, 2022, 04:20 PM)
You can output to epub or html, really, that's sort of it.Wow! Really? I hadn't remembered it being that limited.-BGM (February 07, 2022, 04:20 PM)
This is it:Thanks. I'm afraid I get very turned off when developers start to talk about brains. They clearly don't have the remotest idea about how the human brain functions and my ability to attend to what they are trying to say disappears.
https://www.amplenot...ng_depth_write_in_3d-urlwolf (February 08, 2022, 12:47 PM)
I will look at the footnotes bit sometime. But, from what I read, it seems as if it only works when published on the web. I don't do that, so as a Utilitarian, it wouldn't be of immediate interest to me. I also have a feeling that their thinking about it is wrong. Just from the way they talk. But I will get there and look.I'm with you that talking about how brains work is lazy writing. I'm very happy with the feature though and I think I just realized it helps me writing better, with core ideas as text and 'supplemental material' as rich notes. The text should flow without using those notes. And because you can embed the notes on anything (wordpress, etc), this feature may extend to everything you write.-Dormouse (February 09, 2022, 04:15 AM)
My personal experience isn’t that things that don’t work, but that the experience of using Obsidian is rougher than it was when my expectation had been that it would become smoother as little issues were addressed.I have come to realise that Obsidian is a high friction program, and is likely to remain one for some considerable time, unless you have a straightforward workflow and rarely venture far from it. There seems to be a permanent race between features being added, usually through plugins, and enabling easier usage - again mostly plugins but also core. There's also a substantial time cost to investigating new or expanded features. This can be considered good (massive expansion of features) or bad (irritation and time consumed). I have no idea whether a point of balance will be found at any point in the next few years. The open API abrogates control.-Dormouse (February 04, 2022, 07:24 PM)
good 'ole KeynoteInteresting to see that the format is still being read, though I'm not sure for how much longer. I'm not sure if I still have any files anywhere. And stopped using RightNote quite some time ago. Such a great program in its day.-BGM (February 11, 2022, 09:33 AM)
I have disliked word processors for a very long timeBut, hey, things change.-Dormouse (February 12, 2022, 06:15 AM)
I'd say reevaluate amplenote.OK. I signed up - since they have opened a Free tier in an attempt to move out of loss-making.-urlwolf (February 08, 2022, 12:47 PM)
They 'invented' rich footnotes-urlwolf (February 08, 2022, 12:47 PM)
I'm very happy with the featureAren't these just a link with a location?-urlwolf (February 09, 2022, 10:42 AM)
First-generation apps (2000-2010): OneNote (2003), Evernote (2008), Workflowy (2010)
Second-generation apps (2010-2018): Paper (2015), Bear (2016), Notion (2016), NoteJoy (2017)
Third-generation apps (2019-present): Amplenote (2019), Roam (2019), Obsidian (2019)
The first-generation apps tend to be weaker on mobile, but two of the three have immense overall feature sets at this point. In the case of Evernote, the breadth of its feature set was arguably a direct cause of its decline.
The second-generation apps are (mostly) the ones that people are excited about today. Notion has been the runaway success of the bunch thus far, given the breadth of possibilities afforded by their embedded, data-type-aware tables.
Interesting performance comparison:I simply have trouble believing results funded by Amplenote. Especially as the testing is not clearly defined.
https://www.noteapps.info/state_of_note_apps_performance_2021_with_charts#___Slower_app_considerations_
Note count: 2000-urlwolf (February 12, 2022, 11:15 AM)
Also interesting on that site:I'm not sure about the conclusion. Notion has clearly done very well.First-generation apps (2000-2010): OneNote (2003), Evernote (2008), Workflowy (2010)
Second-generation apps (2010-2018): Paper (2015), Bear (2016), Notion (2016), NoteJoy (2017)
Third-generation apps (2019-present): Amplenote (2019), Roam (2019), Obsidian (2019)
The first-generation apps tend to be weaker on mobile, but two of the three have immense overall feature sets at this point. In the case of Evernote, the breadth of its feature set was arguably a direct cause of its decline.
The second-generation apps are (mostly) the ones that people are excited about today. Notion has been the runaway success of the bunch thus far, given the breadth of possibilities afforded by their embedded, data-type-aware tables.-urlwolf (February 12, 2022, 11:22 AM)
Dormouse, it looks like your usecase is a very long file, like a paper. That's better written in an outliner. These notetaking apps believe in splitting ideas in 'atomic' chunks that you can link to each other.No. I've always liked atomic notes (and more recently zettels) and disliked outliners. And that hasn't changed. But you need ways of searching and accessing atomic notes. I very much like using links and backlinks, and what I call fuzzy tags. But you still need a way to store them, and after trying a variety of approaches, I've decided that long files work best - there's no reason why the contents can't be disparate atomic notes; search is faster and more easily managed in one file than many.-urlwolf (February 12, 2022, 11:35 AM)
How you go from the network to a finished 'big work' (a giant blog post, a book) is an exercise for the reader. An easy way: just concatenate notes. One per heading. This is also what scriverner does. Scrivener (and for documentation Archbee, gitbook etc) have the concept of 'book', these notetakers don't.Always struggled to get on with Scrivener. It's too rigid. Too focused on very small links; the intention is that a very big chain of links will be produced, but it has few features than concentrate on the chain.-urlwolf (February 12, 2022, 11:35 AM)
There are people writing on the value of hierarchies (book TOC) and networks (3rd generation notetaking) for years. The answer seems to be you can have both.I personally believe that both models are wrong. Potentially there are hierarchies; potentially there are networks. But the essence of the state of play is ignorance. So software needs to promote flexibility and many possibilities. Entirely disconnected notes living as their own islands are bad, but so is anything that fits them into a given structure, weather that be hierarchy or network. That's a problem with Obsidian notes - there's usually a rigid structure of some sort. One of the advantages of outliners is that things can be moved around quickly and easily and endlessly duplicated - it's not the outline that's valuable, it's the ease of switching models.-urlwolf (February 12, 2022, 11:35 AM)
amplenote 'works' for me. It's the only one of these 'networked notetakers' that:Not buggy is good, and pretty rare in the this field. Though I suspect that's related to a limited feature set and speed of development
is fast
has mobile
is not buggy
you can live-edit with a collaborator
you can add comments to the text (call it footnote, rich or not)
has versioning
has no investors behind and aligns with user needs-urlwolf (February 12, 2022, 11:35 AM)
ScrivenerTotally agree about Scrivener 100%!! LOLLL-Dormouse (February 12, 2022, 11:59 AM)
I like Workflowy for two reasons: its wikilinks and mirror systems are completely effective even without being part of an outline structure.
And because it also contains such a structure, it is very suitable for producing an output that is intrinsically linear.-Dormouse (February 12, 2022, 11:48 AM)
if you remember Liquid Story Binder. LOLLLLLOh, I do, I do.-superboyac (February 13, 2022, 01:23 AM)
I don't see what the advantage is for the 'big file'. Once you do hoisting to work on parts (which I think is a great idea!), whether the notes are in any file/sequence or in an unordered basket (or network)... it doesn't matter, right?You can work either way. It's a question of what works best for you and your system.-urlwolf (February 13, 2022, 01:50 AM)
In WF copy-pasting a bunch of text from a webpage makes a bit of a mess. That usecase is important for me. What do you do about it?Oh, I rage inwardly, I seethe, I curse their incompetence, if I had a WF box, I'd kick it.-urlwolf (February 13, 2022, 01:52 AM)
It's a bug. I'm convinced it's a bug. The concatenation bug.And it's been going on a long time 2019 (https://workflowy.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360040231571-Chrome-extension-text-expanders-not-creating-new-bullets-)-Dormouse (February 13, 2022, 06:05 AM)
I am especially distrustful of copy/pasteAs I've probably written somewhere above, this is something that I consider an issue across all program pairs. Between any given pair, the behaviour is usually stable.-Dormouse (February 13, 2022, 06:05 AM)
Amplenote can fold bullet lists and you can go wild with those. So if 3 heading levels are not enough, using bullets would get you a bit of the outliner 'features.'Problem is that the bullets don't have notes with them. My interest is in the text only not in the bullets - they're just anchors to move the text around. So Amplenote's bullets don't help at all.-urlwolf (February 13, 2022, 05:42 PM)
copy-pasting a bunch of text from a webpage makes a bit of a mess. That usecase is important for me. What do you do about it?-urlwolf (February 13, 2022, 01:52 AM)
Maybe use something else.-Dormouse (February 13, 2022, 06:05 AM)
Copy/paste from web worked well, but the time I used the web clipper the result was unusable.This has made me think about my custom and practice. I don't need to do this very often, and it's not usually important when I do. I maintained an Evernote account for a long time, because it had a good reliable web clipper. But I have an imense number of options and no system. Programs have drifted in and drifted out again.-Dormouse (February 13, 2022, 08:02 PM)
you might want to also look at writageThanks. Yes. Want would be putting it too strongly.-wraith808 (February 16, 2022, 11:59 AM)
you might want to also look at writageThanks. Yes. Want would be putting it too strongly.-wraith808 (February 16, 2022, 11:59 AM)
I don't like markdown, but it seems hard to avoid it in plaintext, and I have never liked Word - but docx is even more ubiquitous and seems pretty robust across programs too. So do I want a bridge?
I did think of it, and installed a trial to look at it. Then disconnected it from Word, so I could be sure I was seeing Word rather than Writage.
I'm genuinely conflicted about it.
I even looked at the outliner app (DocxManager) to see if that would bring anything extra But that seemed expensive without offering anything obviously useful to me.
One attraction was FocusWriter - which has a very limited set of formatting option, but quite sufficient for me in writing mode.
And always preferred Atlantis over Word in general use. I don't really like the way it manages Headings, but it's no wore than Obsidian. Word itself seems better.
Typora imports and exports docx quite happily.
It feels as if that will cover what Writage does. But I'm not sure.
The bit where Word stands out is the Review stage, but I don't know Writage adds anything to that.
Happy to hear any views if you have experience of it. Else I think I'll wait and see how it goes.
I'm not entirely reconciled to the prospect of using Word more, even though it appears to make sense.-Dormouse (February 16, 2022, 02:21 PM)
I don't like doing long form writing/editing in Word unless I have toMe too-wraith808 (February 16, 2022, 09:31 PM)
Writing Outliner helps me keep projects straight and has the corkboard from Scriviner,I think my Workflowy kanban should do this. Much prefer kanban to corkboard.-wraith808 (February 16, 2022, 09:31 PM)
Writage lets me work in md when I want to, copy the formatted text to a Word document, and copy and paste Word formatted text into my markdown document. It's pretty seamless going from plain text to wordI see how that's useful.-wraith808
link=topic=48938.msg448203#msg448203 date=1645068678
I think my Workflowy kanban should do this. Much prefer kanban to corkboard.-Dormouse (February 17, 2022, 09:10 AM)
I'm using ScrumI don't know it, but it seems very different to me. And complex.-wraith808 (February 17, 2022, 07:38 PM)
I've tried many kanbans, including those in Obsidian and Logseq, but found none of them helpful in practiceActually, I think Plottr is best viewed as a kanban. But rigid and inflexible compared to WF.-Dormouse (February 18, 2022, 05:14 AM)
I don't know it, but it seems very different to me. And complex.-Dormouse (February 18, 2022, 05:14 AM)
Scrum is iterative.I had a quick look at the video; it seemed quite long, so I only looked at a bit. But it looked as if Scrum is about getting things done?-wraith808 (February 18, 2022, 08:54 AM)
Writage lets me work in md when I want to, copy the formatted text to a Word document, and copy and paste Word formatted text into my markdown document. It's pretty seamless going from plain text to word which is cool as I don't like doing long form writing/editing in Word unless I have to.It makes sense. I tried it again. Testing Obsidian syntax.-wraith808 (February 16, 2022, 09:31 PM)
what are you trying to accomplish?Essentially I do two things, though many types of both: I write and I research.-superboyac (February 20, 2022, 04:29 PM)
Are you trying to figure out which software to use to write/edit your notes? How do you read the end result of your notes? For example, I don't really care much which program i use to write my files.Within limits, I don't much care about the note editor. I regard wiki-links as essential. And the colours have to be right to suit my eyes. And decent linking though I use few bells and whistles. But I have been happy using a wide range of programs. At least until lines vs paragraphs became an issue because of the Workflowy bug.-superboyac (February 20, 2022, 04:29 PM)
What i care more deeply about-superboyac (February 20, 2022, 04:29 PM)
Word has never worked for meBut sadly, I may be stuck with it, at least if I want to copy and paste into Workflowy notes. It's all I have found that reliably pastes paragraphs as paragraphs that Workflowy recognises including the formatting. Doesn't mean I have to write in Word - it seems to assume that lines from anything ought to be paragraphs - but I need it for formatted text. Atlantis doesn't always work, Atticus never, SmartEdit Writer as bad. Typora preserves paragraphs, but doesn't have formatting, if that's needed. I suppose it's okay. I'll get used to it. At least with that workflow, I could type in Obsidian or anything and the lines would be translated into paragraphs. And Writage then becomes worthwhile.-Dormouse (February 21, 2022, 03:38 PM)
Fellas, here's one called Effie, and it's giveaway, this Feb 10, 2022 (today):If you are that interested in testing new programs, then you might be interested in looking at Inspire Writer. I don't suggest that you switch from TreeDBnotes - while it works you have too much to lose - but in some ways it's a modern take on that type of design. Explicitly a program for writing rather than an information manager. Has a database. Uses markdown, but you don't have to be aware of it.
https://www.giveawayoftheday.com/effie/
I'm going to give it a spin.-BGM (February 10, 2022, 08:11 AM)
Now, on my desktop, I've mentioned before that I use TreeDBNotes - Using this program, I have notes for all of my program development, all my IT and network changes and logs, conversations with techs and agents over the phone, histories of various computers and devices and network management. I've got an entire notebook dedicated to stories and poems, another notebook dedicated to notes on animals, artwork, etc. They are my own personal encyclopedias.Yes, you could do that.-BGM (February 07, 2022, 11:17 AM)
I also love custom icons for note entries and folders in the tree. With TreeDBNotes, I can also paste screenshots right into the editor with no further work (they become embedded as bmps).Yes, you can paste images.-BGM (February 07, 2022, 11:26 AM)
Getting data *out* of TreeDBNotes, yes, well, it has quite a few options, but they are kind of quirky, I think. You can output to epub or html, really, that's sort of it.I think that Inspire Writer's export options are pretty good (markdown, text, docx, PDF, HTML) and nicely manageable.-BGM (February 07, 2022, 04:20 PM)
I have my own toolbar with all my own custom styles. The tree gives you options to customize the style and icon AND flag of every entry in the tree. Any entry in the tree can be a folder as well as a note.No.-BGM (February 07, 2022, 04:20 PM)
In a manner of speaking. No and No.
- Paste hyperlink
- Recognize system url protocols
- Multiple tabs, each with it's own tree
-BGM (February 07, 2022, 11:26 AM)
I just don't care about markdown,I don't either.-BGM (February 24, 2022, 02:47 PM)
I really appreciate everything saved in textIndeed. Plaintext is a good idea - though not for everything - but the implementations are poor.-BGM (February 24, 2022, 02:47 PM)
I have not been pleased enough with any of the markdown editors I've tried so farThe key word in this is enough. With sufficient incentive, you'll just accept whichever seems best.-BGM (February 24, 2022, 02:47 PM)
I'm pretty happy with TreeDBNotesAnd that's why-BGM (February 24, 2022, 02:47 PM)
although it needs some improvements and needs some promise for the future, but it's still working well for me.That's where the problem lies. I doubt you will see any new programs coming in using rich text unless they are word processors. The Rightnotes, Scriveners etc will hang on while they can, but rich text is unfashionable and higher cost in terms of computer resources. The best you can hope for is that TreeDBnotes carries on working, and the next best is that you find a markdown editor where you never need to see the markdown and don't need to know how it works. That's true for Inspire Writer in that it's easier just to use traditional shortcuts for most things, and the markdown itself is semi-hidden. But what it can do is limited by what markdown can do. It has the best interface with Word that I've seen in a markdown editor.-BGM (February 24, 2022, 02:47 PM)
I like my main workflow to be efficient. I am used to producing a new paragraph by typing Enter. I have been neutral about whether that paragraph is actually a paragraph (as in Word and other word processors, Scrivener etc) or a long single plaintext line as in most markdown editors; all I need is to be able to see my paragraphs as separate and distinct
...
Now I know that some apparently happily go Enter, Enter to achieve the blank line required to define a markdown paragraph, but I know I will never be one of them.-Dormouse (December 29, 2021, 03:48 PM)
Your new titles show no continuity or relevance to the original title and make people think there's a new threadThis is presumably about the way it shows on the post page.-Target (February 24, 2022, 05:53 PM)
I'll have to try to give an overview of why when I get a chance.Please.-wraith808 (February 25, 2022, 07:20 AM)
Obsidian ... less inviting to use.-Dormouse (February 28, 2022, 05:10 PM)
Workable but not smooth.-Dormouse (February 28, 2022, 05:10 PM)
seems slightly clunky-Dormouse (February 28, 2022, 05:10 PM)
Heading sizing has been re-done - ... I have tried adding some CSS overrides to avoid old themes from screwing it up, but ...
... Please report .. issues to the theme developer though.
Though I have switched my newish formal zettelkasten project from Obsidian to WorkflowyIn fact, it's becoming my research/writing hub. I'd started by also having my small number of tasks etc there too (better to only use one program I thought), but I struggled to cope with that. Moved those to Dynalist (so that's no longer deprecated). Odd the way our minds work. What ought to be most efficient turns out simply irritating.-Dormouse (March 04, 2022, 04:41 AM)
I need smooth workflows-Dormouse (March 04, 2022, 04:41 AM)
IW ... is limited and rigidly not configurable. But everything is part of the whole and seems, so far, to be very reliable.-Dormouse (March 01, 2022, 05:34 AM)
I also like how picky the developers of both apps are. Neither of them just add every requested feature. It needs to fit tightly into their app’s workflow.In a Review comparing Ulysses with Bear (https://woorkup.com/ulysses-review/) I thought "Exactly!"
I'm okay with a very long document in a plaintext format, but I'd worry about a huge tome entirely in Word.Doesn't seem like a problem. Tested it with War and Peace. No complex formatting etc, but it was only just over 2MB and pretty snappy. Perfectly manageable. Broke it once ("not responding"), but I was trying.-Dormouse (March 05, 2022, 09:07 AM)
I don't know if you can collapse a group of linked notes into a single document.You can, but it's convoluted at best, and all options on a menu don't do the same thing. I wouldn't regard it as practical. Unless there's something about it I haven't discovered.-rjbull (March 14, 2022, 06:45 PM)
I would always vote for full LaTeX, markdown is very simple, but of course very limited ...
the majority do prefer clean simple formatting and WYSIWYG. Also, most people, including myself, abandon software even if it is functional, when it is not pleasing the eyes, you must "like" to work with it, otherwise you will not be productive.
So while I always like more formatting options ..., I am more inclined towards the concepts of block editors (like Notion, Nimbus, Craft ... and all the clones)
Since my markdown format allows for comments and commands, that regular markdown does not, I'm not sure how to preserve this in case of an export/import of the same project.Other than that, it seems to utilise a standard two-pane markdown editor.
The admonitions/callouts are simple to write and potentially useful.Because they are customisable, and foldable, and very popular, I thought I'd have a little play with this as a possibly useful way of adding notes and comments to documents. Certainly I can see many ways in which I could use them.-Dormouse (March 14, 2022, 08:38 PM)
an editor that keeps versioning per sentence? That is, you can go to old versions of every sentence.So basically an editor that saves in blocks and keeps versions of each block? (Assuming sentence effectively = block.)
I think roam has that, but I dislike roam-urlwolf (March 20, 2022, 03:31 PM)
I'm looking for a text editor that does auto-completion for markdown links (that is, filenames) in the same project? This must exist, but I haven't found it.-urlwolf (April 09, 2022, 07:19 PM)
Visual Studio CodeElectron?-wraith808 (April 09, 2022, 08:52 PM)
Forgot: it cannot be electron-based.-urlwolf (April 09, 2022, 07:19 PM)
My planned workflows atm:-
1. Mindomo > Workflowy > Inspire Writer > Word
2. Inspire Writer > Workflowy > Inspire Writer
3. Inspire Writer > Word > Inspire Writer-Dormouse (March 04, 2022, 04:41 AM)
appearance is very similar to Inspire Writer, though not quite as goodI've learned that one of the attractions of IW's appearance was its use of the often denigrated Droid Sans Mono font. I find it very easy to read. Suits my eyes. So I have switched to using it in many programs now, when I have the option to set a font.-Dormouse (April 12, 2022, 03:09 PM)
felt clunky - particularly the shift from the outline to the writing-Dormouse (April 12, 2022, 03:09 PM)
obvious to put the section details into YAML format in Workflowy bulletsPossibly not clunky, but unnecessary friction. So I've given that up. I did try alternative approaches but they clunked too.-Dormouse (April 12, 2022, 03:09 PM)
I used to think that once I have collected and organized these great ideas, I will be better thinker and produce better results.
I was wrong.
...
notes are useless after some time. I either forget about them, or I don’t know why I wrote them in the first place.
I find most of the notes I wrote a few years ago pretty useless for the current me
the idea that notes are used to store information (knowledge) for a long term is misguided. There is no permanent storing or organizing of knowledge. Knowledge is highly transient stuff.
I need to think of myself as writer than a knowledge worker
First draft writing in IW and/or iAW.Since it imports and exports OPML natively, I thou8ght I ought to have another look at Scrivener.-Dormouse (April 18, 2022, 04:58 AM)
But with current (low) prices for storage, why does it matter?Doesn't matter much. I was looking for reasons not to put more emphasis on docx and expected file size to be much larger as it's one of the justifications for plaintext I've come across frequently in fora for markdown apps. I remembered it being bigger myself. Half expected docx to be MB with the plaintext just being a few kb.-Ath (April 24, 2022, 05:58 AM)
Oh, and I now read on an ereader (Onyx air note 2), which adds a lot of constraints.I have a Boox too. But it's not my main reader (or writer). It's for when light conditions - or my eyes - require e-ink and I need a bigger scale than a kindle or need to be able to use a wider range of programs and functions. I tried using Obsidian on it; it works, but not well enough to be especially productive, and I've largely given up using the mobile versions of Obsidian anyway.-urlwolf (May 04, 2022, 09:07 AM)
some look very interesting, like this one https://github.com/kevboh/longform that could be an alternative to scrivener.Yes. To a very limited extent. In terms of usability, I find it nowhere near Scrivener - and Scrivener's not great (for me). I'll admit that I've not checked recent plugin upgrades, but it was not designed around export. Personally, I think it would have been better designed around working with a single markdown file, using headers for chapters, scenes etc instead of a convoluted process to connect smaller notes.-urlwolf (May 04, 2022, 09:07 AM)
Where do you publish what you write?I have worn, and wear, many hats but the short answer is that, in one way or another, I have always had publishers.-urlwolf (May 04, 2022, 09:07 AM)
I stopped looking at logseq for about a year. Oh my, have they made progress. This company is a rocket. They have something very unique.True, I've had a go with it a few times. I stay in touch. My main problem is that I simply haven't taken to it. Like Obsidian, there are many friction points and I feel it is, in general, rougher around the edges. But mostly it simply doesn't feel comfortable.-urlwolf (May 04, 2022, 10:51 AM)
I'm probably moving away from amplenote and into logseq,Any particular reason for moving from Amplenote, or is it purely the attraction of Logseq?-urlwolf (May 04, 2022, 09:07 AM)
I will watch the videos you recommended.Have looked. My issue mostly is the same as I have with Obsidian which is that using the features is relatively high friction and dependent on support of plugins which may or not be maintained into the future and the whole program is likely to shift and evolve in ways I might not want. As with Obsidian, I'm sure it will be much enhanced in 2 or 3 years time.-Dormouse (May 04, 2022, 04:16 PM)
I now read on an ereader (Onyx air note 2),In case you haven't seen it, this thread on the Obsidian forum (https://forum.obsidian.md/t/onyx-boox-obsidian-appreciation-theme/19588/17) is still going. Quite a lot of Boox users there.-urlwolf (May 04, 2022, 09:07 AM)
I'm very happy with logseq so far.That's great. Given the people who like it, I'm sure it's good and is, as you said, developing rapidly. Had more developers than Obsidian even before raising the $4m. The basic structure is very Roam-like. I've simply never go on with it well enough so far, but it's the one Obsidian alternative I check out regularly. Actually, I do keep an eye on Zettlr; I'm not in its core user group (which I see as post-grads and academics) but seems to me to be the most writer biased of the PKM apps.-urlwolf (May 10, 2022, 01:30 PM)
Plus neovide, a nvim frontend, that does something really interesting with the cursor (check this: https://youtu.be/Vd5AACp6GG0?t=112) because it has better typing latency.I do see what you mean. Looks very neat. Of course, I don't actually use emacs, vim, neovim or alternatives and use the mouse by preference when I can. And have never typed fast enough to have an issue with latency; even if I did hit an issue, I'd probably be sitting back thinking while it untangled itself. I'm a fast typist so I assume that I simply spend too much time thinking and not typing.-urlwolf (May 10, 2022, 01:30 PM)
Logseg publish exist too, and it's free. I haven't tried it.40 was questioning this a few pages back, loll. RE the productivity.
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?
Who is measuring this?-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?In the main, I don't believe that the people doing this are productive, apart from the mass production of notes.
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
How much effort is it to keep notes?I don't know. People do appear to be producing prodigious quantities of them.-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
Who is measuring this?I'd like to believe that everyone doing it will be measuring it for themselves. No way of avoiding bias.-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
Paragraphs, Lines and EnterGiven the lack of a reasonable combine and export option in Obsidian, I decided to do a little testing. Two md files, one with an empty line between the lines (ie markdown definition of a paragraph) and one without (ie lines only), exported into docx
This remains an issue. If someone writes paragraphs only (ie no single new lines within the paragraph), then there may be no effective difference between a line and a paragraph - everything will depend on the settings of the export/conversion process. Depending partly on the use of copy/paste and the settings used within that.-Dormouse (May 09, 2022, 09:15 PM)
Given the lack of a reasonable combine and export option in ObsidianWhile I was looking at it, I thought I ought to work out what I think is currently the best workflow for longform writing in Obsidian. The lack of tools for a single file approach makes it hard to recommend that purely. So, ..-Dormouse (May 12, 2022, 06:09 PM)
Also notice Tangent Notes. Very early stages.Just updated it. Does feel interesting. Very visual, card style interface. I could imagine working in it. Especially if I wrote many short pieces or short notes.-Dormouse (February 19, 2022, 07:08 AM)
Tangent is awesomeOnce you have spent enough time with it, I'd be interested in your ideas of its strengths and weaknesses.-urlwolf (May 14, 2022, 12:14 PM)
Video of a plugin being developed for Obsidian (https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/694233507500916796/977889916400840704/video.mp4)that's pretty cool
From the Obsidian discord.-Dormouse (May 22, 2022, 01:44 PM)
I'd have to add an extra process (double spacing lines in text editor) if I wanted genuine paragraphs without adjusting keyboard behaviour to double Enter every time I pressed Enter should I type in Obsidian or iA Writer and export through iA Writer, Writage or Typora. Writing in Typora always exports as I want, as does writing in Inspire Writer. And writing directly into docx obviously works perfectlyI've decided, for now, that I need to use the text editor more - as a final process before my daily commit. That allows me to be agnostic about the programs I write in. And I have even realised that there can be compositional advantages from writing in bullets. Sometimes.-Dormouse (May 12, 2022, 06:09 PM)
The more I use Tangent, the more I realize what Taylor Hadden is building is truly revolutionary. It really is a bike for the brain. He has a knack for investing on the right things, and for designing an UX that produces clearer thinking-urlwolf (May 30, 2022, 06:40 AM)
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?
Who is measuring this?-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
If you do it as you have described with your discipline, it is totally worth it! I agree. The ability to churn out a coherent and detailed document is the best value IMO.The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?
Who is measuring this?-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
I can only speak for myself. At the beginning of my doctorate I decided that I want to read any paper or book only once. I take copious notes of key arguments, my thoughts, feelings, etc. All of these are compiled in a master note for that reading piece. All notes are tagged. Every few months I'll be looking at new connections, sometimes writing a new note summarising my new insight. The biggest value is in making those connections. Is it worth it? For me it is, since I use my notes when writing papers. For example, I wrote a high-quality academic paper of 10 000 words in two days. I could write fast because I knew I already have good sources for my claims and arguments.-Attronarch (June 15, 2022, 02:29 PM)
I was checking out the details of the breaks in the Bartender plugin since the Obsidian update to 0.15 (now 0.15.1)i use yaml and slugs to solve this issue.
Editing the json works, but mouse doesn't work when moving folders.
It then occurred to me that I was wasting my time. I shouldn't be using this plugin (which allows a custom sort order for files/folders) anyway! Reason being that it's an Obsidian only solution to a problem that exists for all programs. XYplorer has this function, but again it only works in that program.
I mulled a number of solutions, which all appeared to be based on links and concluded that the simplest solution would be the best - ie adding numbers and letters before the file name. Oh so Luhmann! That give a consistent sort sequence (assuming alphabetical sort) for all programs and all OSs. It's pretty flexible too, but just doesn't allow sorting by mouse which is my preferred system when I'm changing the sequence.-Dormouse (June 16, 2022, 04:23 PM)
i use yaml and slugs to solve this issue.I gave up yaml a few years ago. Knowing that I could hide it (in some programs) and could delete it wasn't enough. I want my visible file to contain what I want, not a load of extra clutter. I'd rather have that in a database or a json (Bartender takes the json approach) - and did consider doing exactly that. But it would have been extra work and reduce interoperability.-superboyac (June 16, 2022, 10:12 PM)
interoperability and primitive won.I've learned that the actuality of markdown falls far short of the promises of its evangelists. However you look at it, the interoperability of markdown programs is limited unless they restrict themselves to very basic functions. And adding the extra functionality required for many purposes today, creates the same conversion lock-in as databases. I'm not sure there is a good answer to this for Notes programs (PKM| & research). afaics, all programs either use a database or their own version of markdown (with wikilinks pretty much a standard now); other variants of plaintext might be better, but none are sufficient. The database programs are free to use rich text or markdown syntax, but the latter confer a marketing advantage for the moment. The small number of programs based around files (Obsidian probably the most prominent) also use databases (O uses indexedDB & json files); I can live with that, but feel most comfortable keeping my notes as clean and easily readable as possible (and by 'easily' I imply ability to read at speed). Looking at the conversion difficulties suffered by Roam, Logseq, Dendron users in switching to another program, I suspect they all fail the 'forever test', but there's slightly more protection using programs based on files rather than having everything in a database that requires exporting. And there's definitely more protection from structural simplicity.
... observed how easily I fall into 'better' solutions that ... potentially store up problems or limitations in the future.-Dormouse (June 17, 2022, 04:15 PM)
Tangent(A file based PKM program like Obsidian.)-urlwolf (May 30, 2022, 06:40 AM)
Still too early for me to use regularlyI've changed my mind on this.-Dormouse (June 21, 2022, 08:52 AM)
I don't know if *Notion* has yet died from this thread, but I'm giving it a good try. Is this a good thread to talk about how well I like Notion, or should we start a new one?I'd put it where you think it fits best. Notion is one of the numerous options available. It's useful to know how and why people use each of them.-BGM (July 18, 2022, 04:37 PM)
Tiago ForteI've not paid much attention to anything he has produced - it's mostly youtubes, and he's known for the PARA system which is orientated to business and actions - but I thought I would have a listen while I was doing other things. One of his interviewees (known I think for her expertise with Notion) talked about collecting stuff and doing nothing with it because it is better than Google be a curated set of articles (I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread), but it has made me think again about how to use Evernote and Pocket. It's what I have defaulted to doing, and I suspect it is a better methodology than downloading and saving webpages as markdown.-Dormouse (July 19, 2022, 06:47 AM)
After having considered to just use text files for over a decade, I finally migrated my OneNote notes (not really more than project ideas and blog drafts, but they can be quite long these days) to plain text; Markdown, not org-mode, because Markdown just has better support, despite the inferior syntax.very nice, i commend you for taking action.
I currently use a combination of Nextcloud (which I don't like much, but I use too many of its features already) for storage, Nextcloud Notes for managing my notes in a web browser, QOwnNotes for using these notes on Windows and, well, a selection of text editors for everything else. I gave Notable a spin before I settled with QOwnNotes, but Notable seems to expect me to store a note's "categories" right in the Markdown file which is annoying when editing them outside Notable.
QOwnNotes seems to be able to do much more than I need, but it plays well with Nextcloud and it won't clash with other tools, which is nice.
It'll take weeks before I finally am happy with my configuration. Ah, so many new knobs... :)-Tuxman (July 26, 2022, 09:28 PM)
Outliner Software forum: (https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/8679) where there's a long history of useful discussion on all Notetaking and PIM-related methods, workflows, software/apps. Still in search of the Holy Grail of PIMs though.Strong Mac orientation now, but still has a degree of interest in the newer programs.-IainB (October 29, 2019, 05:09 PM)
Taking Note blog: (http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2018/12/it-needs-wiki-like-superpower.html) has very useful thoughts on Notetaking methods/philosophies in general and Notetaking software/apps. Strongly favours the Connected Text PIM, but I gather CT may no longer be being developed/maintained (its future seems uncertain/obscure). Seem to have been no posts since December 2018, though comments from readers have been added since then.[/li][/list]Disappeared completely now.-IainB (October 29, 2019, 05:09 PM)
a kind of system lock-in can happen even when all the data is plaintext and local.-Nod5 (October 31, 2019, 04:40 AM)
Markdown, not org-mode, because Markdown just has better support, despite the inferior syntax.So sadly true.-Tuxman (July 26, 2022, 09:28 PM)
Notable seems to expect me to store a note's "categories" right in the Markdown file which is annoying when editing them outside Notable.-Tuxman (July 26, 2022, 09:28 PM)
he's building a piece of artThis is the essence of it.-urlwolf (September 05, 2022, 09:55 AM)
While notes in Obsidian are simple Markdown text files, maintaining the critical links between note files, images, and other embedded files is complicated without a proper export function (which Obsidian lacks)
It's preventing me from committing to it.What do you make of it, apart from the images issue?-superboyac (October 19, 2022, 01:15 PM)
I just like how it looks better, and the cards and some of the navigation options I like better.All these matter to me too. Makes for a smoother workflow.-superboyac (October 19, 2022, 03:54 PM)
Walling.app (https://walling.app)Also has a Slack channel now.
I've been using Walling for about a week and I think I'm sold!
...
The Walling community can be found on Facebook: https://www.facebook...om/groups/wallingapp-TucknDar (September 06, 2020, 01:12 AM)
Looks a lot like Notion. Have you used that? If so, can you say how it's different?-wraith808 (September 07, 2020, 01:57 PM)
I write all notes/research in simple markdown using Obsidian syntax. I do that whatever program I write the notes in. And whether the file is a .md or .txt. I might write those notes as a a docx, but will also save them as .txt
...
the interoperability of markdown programs is limited unless they restrict themselves to very basic functions. And adding the extra functionality required for many purposes today, creates the same conversion lock-in as databases-Dormouse (June 18, 2022, 06:22 PM)
I am unwilling to incur an extra cognitive load simply to reduce computing complexity or longevity. If I could do all writing effectively in docx or other form of rich text, then I would. The programs tend to be more robust and reliable than the markdown equivalent. But much of my writing involves complex notes, which tips me to using programs that can easily access my notes for the first draft. So these workflows are unsettled (as yet) and very depending on what I am writing-Dormouse (June 18, 2022, 06:22 PM)
I finally migrated my OneNote notes (not really more than project ideas and blog drafts, but they can be quite long these days) to plain text; Markdown, not org-mode, because Markdown just has better support, despite the inferior syntax.
...
QOwnNotes seems to be able to do much more than I need, but it plays well with Nextcloud and it won't clash with other tools, which is nice.
It'll take weeks before I finally am happy with my configuration. Ah, so many new knobs...-Tuxman (July 26, 2022, 09:28 PM)
This actually feels quite stable (famous last words, I know). Tangent & markdown notes on one hand; Word and docx on the other. Whiteboards still being explored, but they (in form of mindmaps/OneNote) have always been peripheral though very useful for rejigging.-Dormouse (October 19, 2022, 11:20 AM)
I'm tidying smaller notes into Walling, which from my pov is giving me a range of good visual views into single long markdown files-Dormouse (November 05, 2022, 08:33 AM)
Whiteboards will come some time, but I don't see them changing the structure - I'm still as all in on files as I can manage.-Dormouse (November 05, 2022, 08:33 AM)
I continue to write in Word.-Dormouse (November 14, 2023, 05:43 AM)
my use of OneNote for bits of notes and ephemera and mini-ideas is increasing.Today I was fuzzing around the net and updated myself on the blog of David Hewson (English crime/travel writer and erstwhile user & reviewer of Scrivener (https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/11359184), Ulysses (https://blog.ulysses.app/ten-things-you-should-know-about-writing-a-novel-with-ulysses-by-david-hewson-3/) & Ulysses book (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23374316-writing-a-novel-with-ulysses-iii) and DabbleWriter) (https://davidhewson.com/2021/03/05/dabble-the-future-of-novel-writing/).-Dormouse (November 14, 2023, 07:04 AM)
Also learned how useful mindmaps can be sometimes. Which switched me back to Mindomo, which produces a brilliant export into docx (hadn't noticed it before since I wasn't then writing in Word) which even includes comments and notes. Mindmaps/Concept Maps; playing around with ideas and structures; it's just one stage but I automatically do that in Mindomo now. It's also functional for tasks, which I'll add in if they are related and breakdown into a sequence.-Dormouse (November 14, 2023, 06:48 AM)
I am curious about mindomo. It looks like the desktop app is free, and only limits the number of "topics" to 40. But then they charge for their cloud services. Is that correct? https://www.mindomo.com/desktop/pricing.htm-sphere (January 03, 2024, 02:40 PM)
Whilst rootling around for better web clipping, I came across Upnote (https://getupnote.com/).-Dormouse (July 25, 2022, 04:20 AM)
The thread has moved on, with no further comment on Upnote?-rjbull (February 09, 2024, 04:55 PM)
The thread has moved on, with no further comment on Upnote?-rjbull (February 09, 2024, 04:55 PM)
I still have it installed. I still use it. Occasionally.-Dormouse (February 14, 2024, 04:08 PM)
... and doing his development work in OneNote!is broken but I find it in Wayback Machine:
The URL .. is broken but I find it in Wayback Machine:Thanks. I'll update the original post so others don't have to chase it down.-erikts (February 18, 2024, 01:34 AM)
[[wikilinks]]In practice, Upnote doesn't have wikilinks as I know them. The initial [[ offers to link to existing notes, or create new ones, but a completed [[is just text]]. Even if you add a note with that text, no link is created. This is pretty poor from a workflow pov.-Dormouse (February 17, 2024, 05:43 PM)
All my notes are written using Tangent. Easy, productive environment, wikilinks and I can use other programs like Obsidian, Typora etc if I need to. I'm adding comments & etc using NoteZilla.
I'm using Word for longform writing - everything in one file. Supplemented by OneNo-Dormouse (November 05, 2022, 08:33 AM)
The issue with database PKM apps is that, in the absence of clear boundaries, they need to be all or nothing. The few file based apps (Obsidian, Tangent, Logseq to an extent) can all work on the same data and have full access to all the installed file utilities, but the database apps have to live entirely on their own features - possibly helped by any integrations they have with other programs - but they need all the notes or else the tags and links are degraded in value.-Dormouse (February 17, 2024, 05:43 PM)
I would think that tangent's formatting would confuse logseq and obsidian. I realize that these are all text files but I thought that the front matter/yaml wasn't really compatible.I think the issue of frontmatter/YAML is important, and incompatibilities remove one of the major advantages of using files rather than a database.-sphere (February 20, 2024, 04:34 PM)
I think some databases offer the ability to process alot of information more quickly.-sphere (February 20, 2024, 04:34 PM)
I think the issue of frontmatter/YAML is important, and incompatibilities remove one of the major advantages of using files rather than a database.
I don't use it at all, so I don't know whether there are any between these programs (I do know that Obsidian recently revised its YAML and garbaged the setups that many users were using. Driven by users' failing to understand or follow YAML definitions and upsetting plugins that relied on standards being followed. Thereby also enforcing plugins to follow a standard approach.
I did use YAML a little in Obsidian's early days, but deleted all of it when YAML was chosen as the preserve of plugins' metadata, and I've never used it ever since.-Dormouse (February 21, 2024, 09:10 AM)
I am really interested in how you achieve using Tangent, logseq and obsidian together and how notezilla is layered ontop of your system-sphere (February 20, 2024, 04:34 PM)
I thought you had one vault/folder where with your files that Tangent, Obsidian and logseq accessed.I did/do.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 09:19 AM)
Integrating with mobile is also important. I have liked Joplin but I have read about some frontmatter/yaml issues in addition to the way it handles each note's unique id. I have heard good things about qownotes which can be synched via nextcloud.I've found that mobile is sometimes very important and sometimes not at all.-sphere (February 20, 2024, 04:34 PM)
I am really interested in how you achieve using Tangent, logseq and obsidian together and how notezilla is layered ontop of your systemI don't really.-sphere (February 20, 2024, 04:34 PM)
I've never done more than look at logseq. I don't like the appearance much, and I always hit a glitch. Org support is effectively deprecated and they are in the process of moving to be database first. I'm not intending to look again until the shift to database is finalised and stable.-Dormouse (February 21, 2024, 10:03 AM)
don't actually use Obsidian at all now. I found it to be a consistently high maintenance program. They change things, they break workflows. Themes can break things. Plugins and themes are often not maintained. The maintenance and staying up-to-date might not always be a huge issue for all-in users who are programmers and/or students, and that's a fair proportion of its usebase. I'm also not sure how much it can genuinely considered a files program now - there are so many jsons, indexedDBs, etc, with many plugins bringing in their own set.
I use Notezilla as an adjunct support program. For messages to myself and comments. I use it much less with programs that have sophisticated comment features themselves (eg Word). It's very flexible, and it's ability to sync across all the platforms I use (Windows and mobile) is very useful.
I've found that mobile is sometimes very important and sometimes not at all.
In general, I haven't found programs to be equally good on mobile and desktop, web apps usually coming closer than most. I've stopped trying to work with files on mobile and tend to rely on database progs (I think Joplin is a database) and import and export (or copy/paste) when I need.
I did not know logseq was moving to be a database first. Nor did I know there was org support other than what was offered by being plain text.You can see what's going on org-wise by reading the Org section on its Discord. I think virtually all users chose to go with markdown, so it's unsurprising that org gets less love.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 03:03 PM)
Do you know what kind of database tangent uses? Do have any information about if it lags as the data it has grows?Just files and jsons.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 03:03 PM)
what I like about tangent is it has a number of viewsI find being able to switch between list and car view very useful. Easier to pick out the note I want as a card than from reading text.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 03:03 PM)
I also like just being able to type.This is the main thing for me. It's nice to work in. Nice to write in. Nice to review notes in. It's productive.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 03:03 PM)
I want a wholistic system I can tweak.And Tangent is open source now, so anything is possible.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 03:03 PM)
I think it's probably a wise decision for logseq to move to a database model. I don't think it ever gained much from being files based except a few users from Obsidian. It has problems with speed. My impression is that there has been a trend for users to move away from it, notwithstanding the widespread praise for its PDF handling. Again, you can catch up with complaints etc on its Discord.Yeah discord reading is time consuming :D
oc reading the Discord is time consuming.-Dormouse (February 21, 2024, 05:10 PM)
I just wish that notezilla allowed the ability to sync using my own choice of cloud servicesYeah. I think its main reliable income comes from the sync though.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 03:03 PM)
I would like those postit notes to be accessible outside the postit appI haven't checked out other postit apps in a long time.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 03:03 PM)
I've stopped using Tangent/Obsidian/markdown editors for notes with images. The links are too vulnerable.-Dormouse (February 21, 2024, 05:24 PM)
Out on the internet and youtube obsidian is dominating ... I cannot believe more people do not know about tangent.I think Obsidian was the first of the Roamalikes to get any traction. Started with some credibility (from Dynalist), had a techie crowd onboard from the beginning and took off with students - esp Comp Sci students. And it added features at a remarkable pace and then took off when the API came out. It's a program for hackers & players rather than users imho. A potential problem for the future is that students are high turnover and have a voracious appetite for the new.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 05:34 PM)
Vulnerable how? Like you link to the directory with the images in it, and that link breaks? Or they break when trying to sync between different systems (something I have had problems with)?
It just seems like that is something that should have been solved.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 05:40 PM)
I worked out that if I have all the assets I refer to in the file, then nothing ever gets lost.-Dormouse (February 21, 2024, 06:03 PM)
Solved by textbundle, except no-one supports it.
many many Mac apps.Yeah, quite a few Mac apps, but very few on Windows. Only one I've used is Zettlr, but I've not checked how that goes since I haven't used it in ages. Seems like there was a fair wind of Mac enthusiasm a decade ago, but then it died and has never picked up again.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 11:00 PM)
thanks for the issue! Unfortunately, this is not possible. There are several reasons to that:So that wouldn't work for me. I don't mind duplication if it guarantees security and I dislike the approved markdown default setup.
Both TextBundle and TextPack have been designed specifically for inter-application sharing of notes and cross-device sharing. They were never intended to be used as a default storage container.
TextBundles are basically just folders within folders, so using these by default would inflate the amount of folders within your application unnecessarily; additionally, information will be stored redundantly, thereby consuming more space than with the current setup. Additionally, it would take a longer startup time, as more information needs to be processed, and the current File System Abstraction Layer already has a lot to do parsing 10,000+ files due to the lack of caching methods.
The "good" way to work with Markdown files is to store notes in one directory and use a single img, assets, or images-directory to collect all images being used across the notes in that directory. This means: If you need an image a second time, you can simply link it to both files. Additionally, you'll have more control over what is stored where. Zettlr already gives you the option to automatically store pasted images in a predefined "collection" folder.
Markdown is intended to be used as a format that is both machine-readable and human-readable; to add additional layers of information makes it harder to write programs to address these issues.
TL;DR: The default way is and will be to have single Markdown files with the images in a different folder. TextBundle and TextPack, however, can be used to share specific information with other users, devices, or applications.
So file, like the same folder/directory?No, as in a text file with images.-sphere (February 21, 2024, 11:00 PM)
I also read a post on the Workflowy Slack from user Frank G - “I have been using Msft Word for Mac (Windows before) for as long as I can remember. I have also played with Craft, Ulysses , Scrivener, Speare, Author , Typora , all excellent alternatives. Today WF finally ate them all up too for my long form docs . The blank page with a few basic formatting choices plus WF’s speed (once opened) , simplicity, and flexibility, has made WF my go to choice for long form doc drafts . I will still need to export to Word (or Craft) for final formatting and PDF conversion, but 95% of my time I will be with WF .”The thread has moved on, with no further comment on Upnote?I decided to move it into test mode.-rjbull (February 09, 2024, 04:55 PM)-Dormouse (February 17, 2024, 05:43 PM)
the Roamlike feature where bullets can transform into text blocksis pretty well the perfect design for a zettelkasten as used by Luhmann. Every note has a parent. There is no distraction from bullets. Links are possible.-Dormouse (February 29, 2024, 06:37 PM)
It's worth emphasising that a brief atomic note implies two conditions that have to be met, not just oneDo you list these conditions? Are you referring to the two bullet points, the second of which includes the quoted text?-Dormouse (March 06, 2024, 05:00 PM)
That it be :It's worth emphasising that a brief atomic note implies two conditions that have to be met, not just oneDo you list these conditions?-Dormouse (March 06, 2024, 05:00 PM)-tomos (March 06, 2024, 09:22 PM)
Are you referring to the two bullet points, the second of which includes the quoted text?No, there's only one bullet. Quoted text, tags, links etc go in the note to the bullet - accessed by pressing Shift-Enter rather than Enter. It's fainter and less obtrusive-tomos (March 06, 2024, 09:22 PM)
Can you recommend a book or article explaining the system in more depth?-tomos (March 06, 2024, 09:22 PM)
What I would say is that you need a clear purpose for using the system. I would suggest that purpose being to do with thinking and doing. With that it is very quick to see whether it is helping or not. But the purpose doesn't have to be academic and doesn't have to involve writing as an output.Many thanks for your answers - and for expanding on the bigger picture :up:
And don't eschew longer notes, outside the zettelkasten but being linked into it.-Dormouse (March 07, 2024, 08:32 AM)
I actually use multiple desktop applications ... I use obsidian, tangent, vscode mostly. this is all primarily markdown stuff. For catch all archival purposes, I put everything in triliumSounds good.
For work purposes when i need to collaborate with less techy people, i've started using Notion.
For static generated sites, I first started using emanote, but then moved to Docusaurus. I think Docusaurus is beautiful.-superboyac (March 07, 2024, 06:55 PM)
I haven't gotten good at atomicity type writing yet, but do plan on going more in that direction as it will help in putting together longer form writings more easily.-superboyac (March 07, 2024, 06:55 PM)
I do not think we need to stick so strictly to the original paper based zettel method with the numbers and stuff because the software and yaml covers that pretty well now, and I found it more of a hindrance at this point. So i've loosened up on that a lot.-superboyac (March 07, 2024, 06:55 PM)
I also read a post on the Workflowy Slack from user Frank G - “I have been using Msft Word for Mac (Windows before) for as long as I can remember. I have also played with Craft, Ulysses , Scrivener, Speare, Author , Typora , all excellent alternatives. Today WF finally ate them all up too for my long form docs . The blank page with a few basic formatting choices plus WF’s speed (once opened) , simplicity, and flexibility, has made WF my go to choice for long form doc drafts . I will still need to export to Word (or Craft) for final formatting and PDF conversion, but 95% of my time I will be with WF .”
Essentially this refers to the Roamlike feature where bullets can transform into text blocks. Logsec has had this for some time too.
It struck me that it might be worth comparing the editors in (some of) the apps that I use, what makes them good and how Upnote compares.-Dormouse (February 29, 2024, 06:37 PM)