DonationCoder.com Forum
Other Software => Developer's Corner => Topic started by: John2k on October 09, 2007, 08:43 AM
-
Hi,
Firstly, great site!
I need a bit of advice concerning a customer of mine. I recently just completed an encryption program for him, and now he wants to draw up a contract to finalise everything. The thing that worries me, is that he wants to view a copy of my passport to validate who I am plus my address etc. I've never heard of that before! The customer lives overseas, and he says that he wants to protect himself for when he makes his payment to me.
What should I do about it? Is giving the information he wants necessary?
Thanks for any help.
John.
-
Hmm, that sounds a bit fishy to me.
On the other hand, I had to fax a copy of my student license + visa card to datarescue when I purchased IDA, since they've had a lot of stolen credit-card purchases... but that's a somewhat different situation than yours.
I'd definitely blank (and I do mean blank, not blurring or pixelizing etc. as those can be reversible) out any control codes etc. on the passport, so the image can't be used for forging a new passport. One can never be too careful.
-
Nothing beats the advice of legal counsel. If you don't have a lawyer you can call up and spend 15 minutes asking simple questions of, then contact your local bar association and explain what you're after. This is exactly the kind of thing I ring up my lawyer about occasionally and if the call is a few minutes or so sometimes I don't even get billed.
My gut feeling is that since it's encryption related + overseas, he may be concerned about US export requirements regarding encryption. Could be a simple documentation procedure we are unaware of until it becomes an international sale.
-
To be honest, I am pretty much clueless with selling bespoke software.
I don't know the normal procedures involved with exchanging software, money, licensing etc.
I got a sinking feeling when he mentioned a passport, maybe it could be some kind of identity scam?
I should have looked into it all thoroughly before I even started programming.
-
Keeping the relevant facts confidential, can you describe what kind of business arrangement you made before you delivered the code? Did you sign a contract?
Have you accepted any payments (cashed the check)?
-
Another option is to use a service like http://www.escrow.com and let it provide the protection. Or have him pay through PayPal where you never get his payment information.
I would not send my passport. And, you've probably been told this before, you should have had contracts drafted before the project started.
What is the value of the project?
-
Hi Ralf,
I havn't delivered the code yet, or took payment.
The customer contacted me to expand on a previous program that I had written. He stated that he was starting a software security company and needed an application to get up and running with. So he made an offer of a lump sum payment, and also a percentage of the software's revenue. After 2 weeks of wrangling out a design with him, I had come to the conclusion that he was asking for the impossible, so I suggested that another much simpler design which required small changes to the original code. We agreed on a price, and I got to work on the new design.
Yesterday I virtually finished the program(minus a few tweaks) and informed him. So up to now the last contact I had with him is asking for the passport, address etc.. He does want me to sign a contract and stop distrubuting the program that his is based on.
@Veign - Payment by his request, would be by bank transfer. I believe it's the safest way?
Thanks,
John.
-
Passport requirement is a bit weird, unless you're a non-US citizen. What's your citizenship status? (Assuming you are located in the States and he is elsewhere.)
"Stop distributing the program that his is based on"? So you have an existing product, and he wants you to stop selling that too? Unless this was expressly agreed to before hand (doesn't sound like it) that's a rather bold demand. Especially if you derive income from the existing product, have an installed base of users, etc.
If the money's only so-so, I'd consider taking a walk. It's not worth keeping a business relationship going with somebody who'd make these kind of last minute requirements. Chalk up your time/work investment as a lesson learned and move on.
On the other hand, the money might be so tempting that you'd be willing to stop selling your existing thingie. Assuming HIS business model supports income for you, is successful, and you trust him to pay you in the future. All real concerns, especially more now since he has seemingly modified your informal agreement without consultation. That's a sign of bad faith, based on what I understand so far.
At this point, I wouldn't sign ANYTHING without passing the proposed contract through the hands of legal counsel. A contract review would take a few minutes and is worth whatever you pay for it to avoid future headaches.
-
an escrow service might be a good solution in general, but if he is wanting to be sure who you are, it seems to me like a bank transfer should give him that assurance and would be safe for everyone.
i would not send a passport scan.
it's probably just that he wants to be sure you are who you say you are so that he knows who he is dealing with, but there has to be a better way to give him such assurances besides sending confidential information like passport details.
-
To be honest, I would never supply bank routing information to a client. If a client wanted a 'bank transfer' type of payment I would have them use PayPal and I would eat the cost of using PayPal.
What sounds really fishy to me is he wants your passport, bank routing information and all personal information (address and such). That sounds scary.
Another thing I have learned doing freelance work is to have all contacts signed before starting a project. Signing a contract after work doesn't make sense since the purpose of the contract is to define, for lack of a better term, this-for-that.
How much is this project worth?
-
Also, never-ever go for a "payment on success" payment strategy, I've burned my fingers with that crap.
-
Thanks for all of your replies.
Originally I wanted to use PayPal, but as mouser said, it would confirm to the customer who I really am, and put the customer at ease.
Although, asking for so many personal details, it could be a bad idea.
The project value is $5000 as is, and $2 per unit sold. Not great, but not bad considering I wasn't earning a great deal with the current version, plus a relatively short development time. He has proposed future applications at better rates.
I am from the UK, and he resides in Canada.
Also, never-ever go for a "payment on success" payment strategy, I've burned my fingers with that crap.
-f0dder
The wonders of hindsight! :D
John.
-
You could just ask them/him/her why they need that information. [And if they ask why you asked, for your own protection of course.]
he says that he wants to protect himself for when he makes his payment to me.
He does want me to sign a contract and stop distrubuting the program that his is based on.
Insurance I guess - So if he finds out that you have broken the contract in any way, i.e., started selling your own slightly modified version of his product, he can sue *some body* instead of trying to track down your net identity (which would probably be easy any how).
So I think best is to just ask why he needs what he wants and explain why you care.
-
Ah. Forget what I said about US crypto rules -- they don't apply to a UK/Canada transaction.
As mouser suggests, don't give him your passport. There are other ways to prove your identity without giving up your personal history. He might be looking at the contractor tax angle and simply be looking for data necessary to declare his expenditures to the tax man, and requesting it in a ham-fisted manner. Might be worth a polite inquiry as to why he thinks he needs your passport data.
$5000 doesn't seem like enough to give up any existing/future software sales of your current product, especially since the $2 per unit sold is based on HIM doing everything right. Most business ventures don't work out, so the odds are against you seeing any royalties.
It occurs to me you hold all the cards. Push back with a revised contract eliminating his silly requirements and see what happens.
-
I just emailed the customer and told him to forget my passport (politely).
The revised contract is a good idea. When I receive one from him, I'll post it up so you can all take a look.
Thanks for the all of the advice, appreciate it!
John.
-
John2k -good move! As a Canadian (albeit not a lawyer, software developer, etc.) I can tell you that the information that the customer has requested of you doesn't sound right - I've never heard of any bureaucratic requirement that a Canadian individual or business gather this kind of info in order to do business with an overseas individual/business. In fact, I'd say that it borders on illegal. But what do I know... I'm glad you didn't just do as he requested because I think it's FISHY, FISHY, FISHY...
-
It doesn't sound fishy to me, just sounds like you guys need to find a compromise that protects everyone.
-
You might be right, Jesse. I'm probably just paranoid, but after years of living abroad, I am quite suspicious of any request to surrender one's passport - either in the original or as a copy.
-
John2k,
I'm mightily relieved that you declined to send passport info. Nothing would induce me to do that, certainly not at this level of commerce.
I wonder what mechanism you have in mind to audit sales and enforce royalty payments?
Perhaps your client would like to send you his passport information so that you can do some verification of his bona fides... ;)
-
Perhaps your client would like to send you his passport information so that you can do some verification of his bona fides... ;)
-cranioscopical
I wonder what his answer would be? :)
It's embarrassing to think that this is all a scam, considering the effort it took to meet his requirements.
If it is a con, then it's the oddest one I've ever come across!
At least I learnt a thing or two about secure encryption.
-
Mmmm, doesn't feel like a scam. More like the guy's new to programming-for-hire and kind of fumbling around. You'll know more when you get his response to your email(s) and your revision to his contract.
-
It's embarrassing to think that this is all a scam, considering the effort it took to meet his requirements.
If it is a con, then it's the oddest one I've ever come across!-John2k
It's probably not a scam but it' also better to be safe than sorry.
As others here have pointed out there are better and more professional ways to achieve what your potential client requires.
Good luck, I hope your efforts result in a good, mutually-beneficial relationship!
-
It's probably not a scam but it' also better to be safe than sorry.
Agreed. A little paranoia in the cyber age is definitely a good thing (well, not a bad thing, anyway). Like Chris, I hope this is the start of something that benefits both you and your client - maybe you two will have a good laugh about it in years to come :Thmbsup:
-
Just to update, the customer has not contacted me since I refused the passport details, which was 2 days ago.
Looks like everything has turned sour. >:(
-
Or, he's reviewing his options. Give him a few more days then politely inquire. Asking to verify that he received your last communication is safe enough in this age of spam filters and whatnot.
-
Just to update, the customer has not contacted me since I refused the passport details, which was 2 days ago.
Looks like everything has turned sour. >:(-John2k
There are a lot of legitimate reasons for failing to reply in a prompt manner.
OTOH, if it transpires that the failure to reply was deliberate, don't you think that implies that you're better off not dealing with the other party?
Better to find out now than later.
-
Better to find out now than later.
-cranioscopical
Even more reasons to have contracts in place before you start work. Since he did the work he would still be out his time, unless he can some how get compensated for his work through some other means.
Keep us informed on what happens...
-
If you don't get a reply or paid for the work is there any potential in selling what you have done - that would make him sit up :tellme:
-
Oh! Then send him a link to buy the thing online when you have the site ready.
Price: $5000
-
I just emailed him again, and requested that he contacts me for payment details. The appliciation is now complete, so my end of the bargain is over as far as work is concerned.
I could try and market the program myself I suppose, but more likely it will never see the light of day.
Hopefully I'll get a reply today, i'll let you all know. :)
John.
-
my experience has been that you can detect scams on first contact.
in the case of your customer, i suspect everything is fine and on the up-and-up, and you're just experiencing the normal uncertainties and delays of business as usual.
-
Adding to mouser: A phone call goes a long way. Call and talk with him on the phone. *Alot* of things can be cleared up with a simple phone call.
-
Hello all,
I eventuallty got an email back, but it wasn't quite what I was expecting...
He never mentioned the passport situation, he just asked if I could make some minor alterations to the program.
When I say minor, he wants me to attach to various processes and perform some Lotus API programming. Hardly minor considering what the projects worth...
If I hadn't committed myself without proper terms in place, all this wouldn't be happening, it's turning out to be a nightmare.
I'll keep you posted, if and when a contract appears!
-
Ask for some sort of 'good faith' payment before making additional changes outside the scope of the original spec.
-
All you need to do is assemble a quotation for the additional work and send it to him. Estimate the number of hours it'll take you (+ 25% since these things ALWAYS take longer than anyone thinks) then send it to him for approval. Keep it polite. Tell him if he wants the work done, all he has to do is approve the quote via email and you'll jump on it, with delivery by date x.
It'll accomplish a couple of things: (1) indicate that the party is over, no more "minor mods" for free, (2) shows in a professional manner that you disagree with his definition of "minor" without making a big deal of it, and (3) serves as a defacto contract that you can wave around later for payment. If he agrees, and you deliver, you're owed the money. Period.
Of course this won't replace a real contact if/when that comes, but it'll cover this small bit of extra work.
-
get paid for the work you've done so far before you add stuff. or use an escrow service.
-
I took everyones advice and emailed him for payment for work done so far.
He's still being difficult about making significant changes, but I made it clear that I will not do anymore until a payment is made.
Anymore hassle will definitley result in me walking away from it (which I should have done earlier).
I'll post back and let you know what he says.
Thanks.
-
Thanks for the update! Hope all turns out well.
-
I've been lurking on this thread. Good advice. An good luck to you John2K. It sounds like you have gotten things straightened out. You might want to think about writing up an article about your experience and presenting it to some of the popular developer websites. They are always looking for that type of postmortem article.
-
That's a good idea TinJaw. An article that has two versions: the way I did it and the way I should have done it. Let others learn from what you experienced.
All projects I do with new customers require a proposal. The proposal has several parts:
1) Quote: Simple itemized list of cost and the terms of payment (for me its 50% down / 50% upon completion)
2) Scope Of Work: Details of what will be delivered, whats required (like a server supporting PHP and MySQL - never make assumptions with a contract), what the client has to provide and what the time frame on the project is (with a clause about client induced delays)
3) Terms of Service: This is a the legal stuff about ownership, payments, project completion and review and all the standard legal stuff.
This fully outlines what they will receive, for what price and what is in place to protect both parties.
Also the Quote includes a statement that reads "by accepting this quote you accept the Terms of Service by default". This is further protection as the TOS is what protects me and my services.
Once I have a 'good' project behind me with a client I can be a little more lenient with the proposal process for simple projects. I still do a proposal for all complex, time consuming projects where the Scope of Work needs to be better defined than an email or phone call can do.
After you do a few proposal you will have a template of cookie cutter phrases and terms so writing them becomes easier and easier.
Good luck and spend a little time developing your contracts.
Also, having a professional proposal makes you look more professional in the clients eyes as its usually the first thing you develop/prepare for them. They will judge you by the professional aspect of your proposal.
-
I think veign makes some great points.
This is one of those cases where the extra work up front both serves to protect you *and* will convey to the other person that you are a professional and know what you are doing. You may increase your price based on preparing a proposal or quote, but it's bound to be worth the time.
-
Excellent advice! Thank you.
I'll certainly consider writing an article when this sad(or hopefully good) story ends.
I have been a developer for quite some years now, but unfortunately I've never had the (dis)pleasure of customer interaction with regards to setting time frames, contractual obligations, or even liaising about design aspects.
The 'managers' dealt with that stuff.
I suppose there is more to a programmer than writing code!
I'm glad to have posted, you've all been a great help, with really good advice.
I'll certainly keep you all posted on how this pans out.
Thanks.
John.
-
One other thing to note that I learned in my MBA law class that you will want to consider (and Veign, you may wish to add) putting in all contracts:
1) Phrases specifying explicitly what is NOT included (in addition to what is as you already have mentioned) that may be expected by new contract negotiators.
2) A covering phrase stating anything that is not explicitly included in this contract is hereby explicitly excluded.
Without these statements, many contracts end up in the courts and get thrown out as a "No meeting of the minds" type contract where the judge works more as a mediator to renegotiate the contract or make it null and void.
That said, it does not invalidate anything else already mentioned, it only adds to it.
-
really great, simple point steeladept.
-
steeladept,
Item #1 I already include. Mine usually contains things like hosting and domain name
Item #2 - Where would something like this go? In the TOS or at the bottom of the Scope of Work section? This is something I would like to add and thanx for the advice.
-
Hi,
I got an email today and everything it seems, will turn out fine. The customer is in the process of making an intermediary payment and is sending me a contract as I type. As soon as I get the contract through, I'll post back and see what you all think of it.
In the meantime, are there any template contracts I can view so I can get a good idea of what to do next time?
Thanks,
John.
-
Forgive me for quoting myself, but as i get older i need to prove that indeed what i'm losing in terms of speed i'm gaining in terms of wisdom:
my experience has been that you can detect scams on first contact. in the case of your customer, i suspect everything is fine and on the up-and-up, and you're just experiencing the normal uncertainties and delays of business as usual.-mouser
-
I got an email today and everything it seems, will turn out fine. The customer is in the process of making an intermediary payment and is sending me a contract as I type.
-John2k
Yayy! Congratulations! Isn't it grand to actually get paid for your work?
-
Forgive me for quoting myself, but as i get older i need to prove that indeed what i'm losing in terms of speed i'm gaining in terms of wisdom:
my experience has been that you can detect scams on first contact. in the case of your customer, i suspect everything is fine and on the up-and-up, and you're just experiencing the normal uncertainties and delays of business as usual.-mouser
-mouser
I never once doubted you... Honest :D
Yayy! Congratulations! Isn't it grand to actually get paid for your work?
-Ralf Maximus
It feels good to finally put this ordeal behind me, the coding was the easy part as it turned out!
-
Good news - don't break out the champagne though until you have the cash in your sweaty hand ;)
-
Hi all,
Just to let you know that I received payment today. Everything is finished and all turned out good.
Still no contract though! :huh:
Thanks,
John.
-
Just to let you know that I received payment today. Everything is finished and all turned out good.
Still no contract though! :huh:
-John2k
Glad to know that, john!!
-
Thats great. Very glad it worked out for you in the end.
-
W00t! Congratulations and congratulations again!
Perhaps your customer has learned how to treat a developer, especially when the code hasn't been delivered yet. :-)
-
Very pleased to hear your news, John!
I still think you were right to be wary.
For the future, it's still good to get a contract. Even the most amicable arrangements between highly-trusted partners can go wrong at some point down the road. A well-written contract can help to settle things with less rancour should that arise.
-
Thanks everyone.
I'll certainly get a contract next time, even though everything has turned out for the best, it still has been a nightmare(which I dont want to repeat).
Thanks again for all your help, things may have been different had I not posted. :)
John.
-
I'll certainly get a contract next time, even though everything has turned out for the best, it still has been a nightmare(which I dont want to repeat).
-John2k
And when you do, make sure it's not a "pay on success" contract, those suck.