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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 12:11 AM

Title: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 12:11 AM
Saw an article:

How You Know When It’s Time to Switch to Linux

If you're considering giving Windows the boot here are 10 signs the time is right to give Linux a try.

Source (http://tech.ca.msn.com/pcworld-article.aspx?cp-documentid=26948667)

And thought I'd post it before Zane. :D

Just kidding.

But the stuff in the article is more candy-floss BS.

1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software
2. You’re Tired of Upgrading Hardware
3. You’re Tired of Malware
4. You’ve Seen One Too Many Patch Tuesdays
5. You Don’t Have the Time
6. You Like Speed
7. You Like Sharing
8. You Don’t Actually Love Internet Explorer
9. You Want to Be in Control
10. You’re One of a Kind

Sigh...

So, the rant is here (http://cynic.me/2010/12/30/are-you-ready-to-switch-to-gnu-linux/). :D

Well, not really a rant. Or not much of one.

The long & short of it: I hate dumb lists by bored tech writers. The presumptuous question is "are you ready", along with some questions to ask.

Now, for a non-idiotic approach to the question…

ARE YOU READY TO SWITCH TO GNU/LINUX?

This is crucially important. But you can answer this question with a little thought and reflection.

First, take inventory of the different tasks that you do and the programs that you use to do it. Next, look for replacements for them that run on GNU/Linux. Next, and this is the hard part, verify that the replacements work for your purposes. An example will help…

Pretty much the only REASON to switch seems to be "freedom". I can't think of another legitimate reason that isn't blatantly controversial.

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: sri on December 30, 2010, 12:17 AM
The last time I genuinely wanted to try Linux, I remember having to write 3 lines of code to eject a CD from the tray or something. I thought that was pointless.

Windows 7 rocks! I am not sure if there are tools (that are as good) similar to Breevy, windroplr, Directory Opus, ClipX, StrokeIt, Direct Folders that make me productive (i.e., work faster and smarter) in Linux.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 12:31 AM
The last time I genuinely wanted to try Linux, I remember having to write 3 lines of code to eject a CD from the tray or something. I thought that was pointless.

Windows 7 rocks! I am not sure if there are tools (that are as good) similar to Breevy, windroplr, Directory Opus, ClipX, StrokeIt, Direct Folders that make me productive (i.e., work faster and smarter) in Linux.

Hmmm... Better than the last time I had to eject a DVD on my Mac. Ended up taking it in for repair... Only had about 20 or 30 disks in it too. :(

Agreed on Windows 7 -- it's really very nice.

Try out a VMware Linux distro though. It's a great way to play with Linux. VMware has lots available.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: app103 on December 30, 2010, 02:19 AM
Am I ready to switch to Linux? No.

Is Linux ready for me? No...it doesn't have a taskbar that behaves similar to the one in Windows, and until it does, it's not ready for full time use by me.  ;)

1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software
I buy very little software. Most of what I use is freeware.

2. You’re Tired of Upgrading Hardware
You will still eventually have to upgrade hardware, no matter what OS you run.

3. You’re Tired of Malware
What's that? I never get any.  :D

4. You’ve Seen One Too Many Patch Tuesdays
Actually, I have seen one too many "reboot just to make sure Ubuntu is up to date, update it, then reboot back to Windows".

5. You Don’t Have the Time
Time for what? Oh yeah...see my answers to #4 and #6.  ;)

6. You Like Speed
Ubuntu is actually slower than Windows for me. Slower to startup, slower to find the shortcuts to the apps I want to run, slower to start the apps, slower to close them, slower to find valid info on how to do something I want to do, slower to shut down, slower to download and install updates, slower, slower, slower.

7. You Like Sharing
Sharing what, exactly? I can't think of anything I'd want to share that could be shared better, faster, or easier on Linux.

8. You Don’t Actually Love Internet Explorer
I don't, and that's why I can install plenty of other browsers and pick the one I like best. I currently have 10 different browsers installed and except for Firefox, none of them have Linux versions, to my knowledge.

9. You Want to Be in Control
I am in control.

10. You’re One of a Kind
And so is my Windows desktop.  :D

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: sri on December 30, 2010, 02:25 AM
Quote
9. You Want to Be in Control
I am in control.

Quote
10. You’re One of a Kind
And so is my Windows desktop.  cheesy

haha! made me chuckle.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 04:23 AM
Am I ready to switch to Linux? No.

Is Linux ready for me? No...

Hahaha~! Good answer~! :D

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on December 30, 2010, 07:42 AM
#9

Priceless!  ;D :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Bamse on December 30, 2010, 08:30 AM
I blame whole Linux pimping community for me not using Linux. I sense BS posts/reviews/"opinions" are decreasing though, probably due to Windows 7. Ok to focus on Microsoft evil doings of course but these arguments are of low quality. Those who can't see where they come from cannot handle Linux in any shape or form. Takes a bit more than getting rid of Windows annoyances. Truth could be such communication is not meant to sell tickets to Windows users but to help confirming those who struggle have made the right choice. I have problems with that attitude but no way to avoid it because not possible to explore Linux world on my own - knowledge of weird details and workarounds required when you want to tinker and modify Linux. Might be ok out of the box for grandmas and sysadmins who just want things to work :P
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 08:41 PM
I blame whole Linux pimping community for me not using Linux. I sense BS posts/reviews/"opinions" are decreasing though, probably due to Windows 7. Ok to focus on Microsoft evil doings of course but these arguments are of low quality. Those who can't see where they come from cannot handle Linux in any shape or form. Takes a bit more than getting rid of Windows annoyances. Truth could be such communication is not meant to sell tickets to Windows users but to help confirming those who struggle have made the right choice. I have problems with that attitude but no way to avoid it because not possible to explore Linux world on my own - knowledge of weird details and workarounds required when you want to tinker and modify Linux. Might be ok out of the box for grandmas and sysadmins who just want things to work :P


Yeah... I know how you feel. The jeering crowd of smart-mouthed ones really ruins things.

But it's actually easier than you'd think. Try out a VMware image. Here's a link for Ubuntu 10.10 (http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/752043). You'll find MANY more there as well.

Just install the VMware player, then download that image and "play" it.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at it.

If the "Ubuntu" screamers tick you off, try SuSe here (VMware image link) (http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/594).

It's really worth taking the time to play with as there is some VERY cool stuff in there. It's also very quick as it's little different than running a program.

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 30, 2010, 09:09 PM
The title is misleading. All the items listed have nothing to do with GNU.  :)

BTW:
Of course Linux has bars similar to Windows. Or, in case of Ubuntu, OSX. Anyway, the whole thread leads into the wrong direction. Why switch when Windows fits my needs?
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: KynloStephen66515 on December 30, 2010, 09:18 PM
1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software
 - Not really, I dont generally pay for much in the way of software, and when I do, its generally "Donation Ware" so I pay what I want...because I wanted to.

2. You’re Tired of Upgrading Hardware
 - Actually...no...thats one of my favorite times of the year :D

3. You’re Tired of Malware
 - I think I had malware once...
4. You’ve Seen One Too Many Patch Tuesdays
 - wtf is a patch tuesday?  I have automatic updates turned off, and have done since M$ decided to ship a crap load of viruses with one of the XP SP versions (dont recall which exact one)

5. You Don’t Have the Time
 - To learn a new operating system?  No

6. You Like Speed
 - Yes...this is why I have good hardware, backed up by a good internet connection...

7. You Like Sharing
 - Yuhuh, thats why I have MSN, Dropbox, Facebook, DC, and P2P software........

8. You Don’t Actually Love Internet Explorer
 - Hell no, I hate it...and the only time it ever gets loaded is if some crappy ass peice of badly coded crap that I have the misfortune of finding, decided to open it cause the coder was to goddamn lazy to simply open my freakin default browser, like any SANE person would do.......

9. You Want to Be in Control
 - There is no spoon...

10. You’re One of a Kind
 - I might be unique, but using *nix doesnt make you one of a kind...it makes you opne of a bunch of other people who use that OS...




Also, why the hell do people switch to *nix then do things like install WINE to run everything...tbh, if i was gonna install *nix, i would do command line only, no desktop enviroment...desktop enviroment/gaming is for microsoft, command line/servers is linux, anything "edity" like "photoshop" or "pinnacle studios" which _can_ run on windows, should be run on mac.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 30, 2010, 09:22 PM
- wtf is a patch tuesday?
Microsoft decided to patch once a month only. I wonder how people can be tired of that but not of the daily Linux distro fixes...
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Josh on December 30, 2010, 09:33 PM
Daily? Shoot, I can update once in *buntu and check again 3 hours later and have more. And I've seen a total of 80 patches appear 24 hours later after "fully patching" a system one day prior.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 30, 2010, 09:41 PM
Well, that's Ubuntu, Debian's criminal cousin...  :)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 09:57 PM
The title is misleading. All the items listed have nothing to do with GNU.  :)

BTW:
Of course Linux has bars similar to Windows. Or, in case of Ubuntu, OSX. Anyway, the whole thread leads into the wrong direction. Why switch when Windows fits my needs?

I understand what you mean. People usually just say "Linux". However, that is incorrect:

The combination of GNU and Linux is the GNU/Linux operating system, now used by millions and sometimes incorrectly called simply “Linux”.

From here (http://www.gnu.org/).

While it would increase readability and understanding to use the common term "Linux", I purposefully went back and edited it to read "GNU/Linux" for philosophical reasons.

The source article for my rant used "Linux", and the first "reason" was "1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software", which is an entire misunderstanding about what "Linux" is. It's the most common misunderstanding and the worst one. It debases the reasons for GNU/Linux and reduces it to the level of commercial whoredom. The reasons are much deeper and more important than just "no money". From GNU.org:

“Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech”, not as in “free beer”.

I think that's very important, and cited that as my/the only reason to switch to Linux.

With the shenanigans at Google and Apple this year, this should be readily apparent and more poignant now more than ever.

To be absolutely clear, the reasons/motivations behind GNU/Linux are entirely political/philosophical, and NOT financial.

Yes. The title would be clearer if it were simply "Linux", but it would also then be reinforcing a WRONG perception of "Linux".


As for switching, you are entirely correct. If Windows suits your needs, there is no reason to switch, unless you are motivated by the same motivations for GNU/Linux.

In my rant there, I confess that my primary system is Windows. I also state that I am not ready to switch because of the work that I do. (I do not have a real choice.)


@Stephen -- I like the list answers! :D Especially #2 -- I suppose I'm not the only one here that suffers from perpetual gear-lust~! :D


Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 30, 2010, 10:01 PM
To be absolutely clear, the reasons/motivations behind GNU/Linux are entirely political/philosophical, and NOT financial.
Yep, so "GNU/Linux" is the wrong term. Tell me one major GNU/Linux distribution without a "non-free" repository or blobs in the kernel.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 10:24 PM
To be absolutely clear, the reasons/motivations behind GNU/Linux are entirely political/philosophical, and NOT financial.
Yep, so "GNU/Linux" is the wrong term. Tell me one major GNU/Linux distribution without a "non-free" repository or blobs in the kernel.

Did you mean, 'Yep, so "Linux" is the wrong term'?

And did you mean, 'Tell me one major GNU/Linux distribution with a "non-free" repository or blobs in the kernel'?

I think you're pointing out a core problem between the GPL and commercial software (the commercial software business model). Because the GPL forces source to be opened, it makes having commercial versions very difficult. The only way organizations can differentiate there is with brand value and support services (the route Red Hat went).

Brand is simply too difficult to base a business on for small companies that are not established. Nike can do it, but they're large and have been around for a long time.

Support is a more realistic route, however, it's still a difficult model. IBM has shifted a lot of their business to consulting, which is similar. But again, they have a lot of products, are very large, and really know what they're doing, which makes it more realistic for them as they have the brand value there to sell their consulting services for them.

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: KynloStephen66515 on December 30, 2010, 10:31 PM
Daily? Shoot, I can update once in *buntu and check again 3 hours later and have more. And I've seen a total of 80 patches appear 24 hours later after "fully patching" a system one day prior.

In *buntu, spoon bend you


The final factor which stopped me doing a perma-move to linux was the lack of people willing to help.  Looking on forums to see thousands of "RTFM n00b" and "wtf...stupid question...gtfo my forum" kinda put me off.  I know this happens with Winblows as well, but at least there are a few that you can find decent info on (like here); Makes you wonder if theres a forum, like DC, but for Linux...... Unlikely...anyway, the same reason goes for Mac...my main reason for not using them, is the insane pricing they have, and the fact theres a new one brought out every 16 seconds, which means, if you bought one when you started reading this, chances are, your 18 versions behind when your gonna get to the end.  That, and the fact that, I think most mac users are WAY to "up themselves" to ever ask for help on a forum, so finding good, usefull information, that is up to date, and actually works, is going to be a bigger task than saving £1200 to give to Apple.

Linux, IS, a viable option for a whole lot of people, even ones who don't even know about it, or say "nah, its not for me", but if your anything like me, then you can simply install VMWare, load a linux distro, play with it, use any software that doesnt come on winblows, and then when your done, close VMWare, and load windows back up to play those games that would require 6 hours of coding drivers for your linux distro, so they work.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 10:42 PM
That, and the fact that, I think most mac users are WAY to "up themselves" to ever ask for help on a forum, so finding good, usefull information, that is up to date, and actually works, is going to be a bigger task than saving £1200 to give to Apple.

I've found that when looking for problem solving information for my iMac, most of the stuff doesn't work or is way out of date. Apple has a bad habit of changing everything and letting people find out on their own. They quite frankly don't care about backwards compatibility. Microsoft is the opposite there -- they almost care too much about backward compatibility.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: KynloStephen66515 on December 30, 2010, 10:46 PM
That, and the fact that, I think most mac users are WAY to "up themselves" to ever ask for help on a forum, so finding good, usefull information, that is up to date, and actually works, is going to be a bigger task than saving £1200 to give to Apple.

Microsoft is the opposite there -- they almost care too much about backward compatibility.

Thats the sad but true fact, M$ seem to focus more on keeping old stuff working (down to like Win95) rather than focusing on creating greatness
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 30, 2010, 10:51 PM
Did you mean, 'Yep, so "Linux" is the wrong term'?

And did you mean, 'Tell me one major GNU/Linux distribution with a "non-free" repository or blobs in the kernel'?
Debian. It has both.

So "GNU/Linux" I S plain wrong. "Linux" is the right term here.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 30, 2010, 11:02 PM
Did you mean, 'Yep, so "Linux" is the wrong term'?

And did you mean, 'Tell me one major GNU/Linux distribution with a "non-free" repository or blobs in the kernel'?
Debian. It has both.

So "GNU/Linux" I S plain wrong. "Linux" is the right term here.

I'm not familiar with what you're referring to.

I find that odd though as the GPL is very clear in being a viral license, so I don't see how it can't be free without violating the GPL.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: TucknDar on December 31, 2010, 01:43 AM
The final factor which stopped me doing a perma-move to linux was the lack of people willing to help.  Looking on forums to see thousands of "RTFM n00b" and "wtf...stupid question...gtfo my forum" kinda put me off.  Makes you wonder if theres a forum, like DC, but for Linux......
I've "pushed" this forum before, but I'll do it again...: http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/ I find it to be a very friendly linux centered forum. Obviously mostly concerned with all things CrunchBang Linux, but all kinds of general Linux stuff (and other things) are discussed as well, and in a nice, friendly tone. Can't say I'm "ready" to switch to Linux, but I find CrunchBang ideal for my netbook, and I'm considering installing Qimo ("a desktop operating system designed for kids") on my old laptop for my daughter to use.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Bamse on December 31, 2010, 02:35 AM
Linux world do have a communication problem. Seems to me 90% of for example Ubuntu users don't know more than most can pick up in a day or 2. Last 10% do know a lot (can be blank about Windows though) but have trouble delivering info. Becomes too much hunting wikis, read and carefully apply "code" stuff. There also seem to be an acceptance of stuff crashing in a very bad way if you experiment. I can run a Windows installation for years with heavy tweaking and what not. Linux? I don't think so. Probably has to do with what paranoid System control with privileges, sudo fun, spoon fed/idiot proof repositories. You can install a shortcut like Ubuntu Tweaker, you can modify all you like but you are on your own and you are not supposed to! When used to Windows Linux tinkering will of course seem odd but I don't think that many distros are prepared for it. Step up to being able to joggle with Linux is huge I think. If you asked those in charge of Ubuntu I bet their core target group is just grandmas and the average hopeless Windows users. Possible trick is to forget about the more popular distros and look at alternatives, can start with the top 25 ;)

Another complaint. The suggestion that Linux repositories has so much more useful software than is available for Windows is BS :) Yes there is a lot and some distros have nice GUI where you can pick and chose, see ratings even, but there is a long way to go to beat Windows apps. And again a feature I think would sell better if "they" acknowledged the obvious fact and instead promoted Wine, Virtualbox etc. as solutions to stuff not yet available or not yet as good. The more reasonable Linux fanatics have no problems with Windows or not so much they have a need to mirror them self in the beast all the time. Online apps might make these concerns redundant to some degree but because a Linux app has same functionality as a Windows ditto does not mean it works as good.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: f0dder on December 31, 2010, 05:50 AM
6. You Like Speed
Shouldn't you be in rehab, then, rather than getting all buzzed up and energetic about installing linux?
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: zridling on December 31, 2010, 06:19 AM
The cloud and social sites have taken the bite out of so many traditional OS arguments. Except it depends on how you interact with your computer. For programming, Linux kicks ass, unless you're just going to stick with Windows programming. If you're needing any OS to get you online, then any of the big three will do. If you're a professional video editor or photographer needed Photoshop, you'll want Windows. If you've got money to burn every six months, buy Apple! And so on. Sounds like a lot of folks in this thread haven't actually used Linux recently for more than a day or so, decided it wasn't like Win7, and promptly hit the dump key. I contend that learning a new OS is like taking on a new job, or in some sense moving to a different country: it takes a while to get accustomed to its ways. Flying into Paris and asking everyone "Do you speak English?" is being an ugly American. Once you immerse yourself, Linux is stupid-easy. Even easier if you pick a distro and stick with it. Oh well, here's my response, and thanks Renegade, for posting this.

1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software
I just couldn't afford to any longer.

2. You’re Tired of Upgrading Hardware
I just couldn't afford to any longer.

3. You’re Tired of Malware
Oh yeah. I laugh everytime I read about AV software.

4. You’ve Seen One Too Many Patch Tuesdays
Nah, updating often is a good thing Microsoft does.

5. You Don’t Have the Time
No, I've had the time, just not the patience.

6. You Like Speed
Oh hell yea, especially on older/2nd gen machines. Doubling the life cycle of my hardware is sweet.

7. You Like Sharing
In what sense? As long as your software uses open file formats, we can share. Otherwise, I could care less because I'm not paying for Microsoft Office, period. If you have to use Powerpoint (the example the author uses), don't. No one I know uses Powerpoint unless they want to put a crowd to sleep.

8. You Don’t Actually Love Internet Explorer
Just one in the crowd these days.

9. You Want to Be in Control
I want to be DRM-free and open source as much as possible.

10. You’re One of a Kind
No, not at all. My computer works and looks a lot like your Win7 computer. Only mine is far easier to customize, upgrade, update, try new software, copy the OS to share with others, install as many times as I want on as many machines as I want, all at zero cost. With openSUSE (http://www.opensuse.org/), I've had no hassles whatsoever, and it trades files back and forth seamlessly among discs, USB sticks, and networked Windows computers in the house.

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: cranioscopical on December 31, 2010, 07:55 AM
Hmmm... Better than the last time I had to eject a DVD on my Mac. Ended up taking it in for repair... Only had about 20 or 30 disks in it too. :(
That might have been your problem; I think they're meant to accomodate only one.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 31, 2010, 08:29 AM
Hmmm... Better than the last time I had to eject a DVD on my Mac. Ended up taking it in for repair... Only had about 20 or 30 disks in it too. :(
That might have been your problem; I think they're meant to accomodate only one.
-cranioscopical (December 31, 2010, 07:55 AM)

But there were really really really small DVDs...
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 10:06 AM
I'm not familiar with what you're referring to.
Debian's apt repositories have a "non-free" trunk. In Debian's kernel are some binary blobs for common drivers. Both are incompatible with the term "GNU/Linux".
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: f0dder on December 31, 2010, 10:17 AM
I'm not familiar with what you're referring to.
Debian's apt repositories have a "non-free" trunk. In Debian's kernel are some binary blobs for common drivers. Both are incompatible with the term "GNU/Linux".
...and an attitude like that is why linux isn't taking off for the majority of normal people.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 10:26 AM
Normal people don't care about "GNU" or "not GNU". I just wanted to clarify why this is not about "GNU/Linux".
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: f0dder on December 31, 2010, 03:16 PM
IMHO "GNU/Linux" doesn't mean "GNU-only" - then you wouldn't have a very large distro, anyway. Since it doesn't mean GNU-only, it doesn't mean opensores-only either.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on December 31, 2010, 04:14 PM

...opensores...


[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

Pejorative. Shame on you f-man!  ;D

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: f0dder on December 31, 2010, 05:09 PM

...opensores...

Pejorative. Shame on you f-man!  ;D
I don't always do it on purpose, I swear!

(This time I did, though :))
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on December 31, 2010, 05:23 PM
^That's why we love you, man! Keeps us a bit more honest.  :Thmbsup: :D

P.S. Pretty clever wordplay too.  ;D
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 06:22 PM
IMHO "GNU/Linux" doesn't mean "GNU-only" - then you wouldn't have a very large distro, anyway. Since it doesn't mean GNU-only, it doesn't mean opensores-only either.
Well, it MEANS GNU-compatible only.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: f0dder on December 31, 2010, 06:32 PM
IMHO "GNU/Linux" doesn't mean "GNU-only" - then you wouldn't have a very large distro, anyway. Since it doesn't mean GNU-only, it doesn't mean opensores-only either.
Well, it MEANS GNU-compatible only.
No, not really. Calling it GNU/Linux only conveys that it's a distribution that's bent over for GNU's sense of self-importance.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 06:57 PM
RMS has a different POV here.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Josh on December 31, 2010, 07:19 PM
I asked this in the IRC channel but I want more input. What exactly is GNU about, what does it represent, etc? Can someone break it down? I see various pages detailing it, but I am wondering if there is more to what GNU is about.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 07:30 PM
GNU is actually a philosophy, standing for "freedom" "as in free speech, not in free beer".  :)
It represents the common sense that information of any kind should not be restricted in any way.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on December 31, 2010, 08:21 PM
There's a very good  and accurate discussion of the whole GNU thing as it relates to Linux in the book Rebel Code by Glyn Moody. If you want the whole story, check it out.  :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 31, 2010, 09:22 PM
As Linux is GPL, how does any distribution NOT become GPL? That violates the license. And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.

I don't get how any Linux distribution *can* be not GNU (without violating the terms of the GPL anyways).

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 09:28 PM
And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.
Linux (the kernel) is not even GNU due to the driver BLOBs. No-one said that the whole distribution must also be.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 31, 2010, 09:40 PM
And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.
Linux (the kernel) is not even GNU due to the driver BLOBs. No-one said that the whole distribution must also be.

Do you have any references? I'd be interested in reading more on it.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 09:43 PM
http://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 31, 2010, 09:52 PM
http://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html

Interesting. Haven't seen that before. Thanks.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 09:56 PM
It is the most obvious source, isn't it?
Somewhere in the Debian docs, the Blobs are explained more detailedly. But I guess "binary large objects" is quite self-explaining.

:)

No problem!

(So what about changing the topic title now?  :P)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 31, 2010, 10:10 PM
It is the most obvious source, isn't it?
Somewhere in the Debian docs, the Blobs are explained more detailedly. But I guess "binary large objects" is quite self-explaining.

:)

No problem!

(So what about changing the topic title now?  :P)

Topic changed: Are You Ready to Switch to Linux? (http://cynic.me/2010/12/30/are-you-ready-to-switch-to-linux/)

I'm still curious as to HOW non-GPL stuff slipped into the kernel.

Reading this again:

The combination of GNU and Linux is the GNU/Linux operating system, now used by millions and sometimes incorrectly called simply “Linux”.

It makes sense now. It just seemed somewhat misleading before.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 10:12 PM
Glad to help you out! :)
The GPLv3 allows peaceful coexistence with non-free parts, written for exactly that reason: to allow Linux to get proprietary drivers.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on December 31, 2010, 10:21 PM
Glad to help you out! :)
The GPLv3 allows peaceful coexistence with non-free parts, written for exactly that reason: to allow Linux to get proprietary drivers.

Ah... Got it. I was still living in GPLv2-land.

But I thought that GPLv3 was meant to be MORE restrictive due to Tivo, and to force opening of hardware in line with the GPL...
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on December 31, 2010, 10:30 PM
http://blog.milkingthegnu.org/2008/04/gpl-for-dummies.html
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: mahesh2k on December 31, 2010, 11:11 PM
1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software
No. Tired of being a freebie-sucker and i want to support myself and other develoeprs.

2. You’re Tired of Upgrading Hardware
So that keeps me from playing upcoming games ? no thanks. i'll update hardware frequently and play games instead of pretending to live frugal life just for the sake of lazyness. :D

3. You’re Tired of Malware
There are no malware for chrome and firefox irrespective of platform ? ;)

4. You’ve Seen One Too Many Patch Tuesdays
There are no patches in linux software ? i wonder why gcc and other supported libs are updated frequently on every software package when synaptic finds out.

5. You Don’t Have the Time
linux increases amount of time i spent on it to sort things out. Don't tell me linux saves time.
single drive multiple(countless) folders (linux)thinking saves time ? or multiple drives and multiple folders (windows way)save time and are easy to sort out ? ;)



6. You Like Speed
for what ? games? let's face it. It's not profitable to write games for linux and so the speed is useless when it comes to linux gaming.

7. You Like Sharing
share what ? music ? illegal stuff ? :coughs:

8. You Don’t Actually Love Internet Explorer
Never used it ever since 2007. Firefox and opera is beating that child of MS for long time already.

9. You Want to Be in Control
I'm in control.

10. You’re One of a Kind
Writing scripts on command line to do simple tasks when 2 clicks can do job ? No, i'm not unique then. :D
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: f0dder on January 01, 2011, 06:39 AM
As Linux is GPL, how does any distribution NOT become GPL? That violates the license. And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.
Unless I'm really mistaken, licensing something under the GPL does not make it GNU.

There's a lot of software in every linux distribution not written by the GNU project people.

And there's a fair amount of opensource projects that aren't under the GPL license, and are included in most/lots of distributions.

Insisting on calling a distribution GNU/Linux imho equals downplaying the importance on non-gnu/non-gpl projects, and I find that rather distasteful and self-important of the GNU guys.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 07:14 AM
As Linux is GPL, how does any distribution NOT become GPL? That violates the license. And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.
Unless I'm really mistaken, licensing something under the GPL does not make it GNU.

There's a lot of software in every linux distribution not written by the GNU project people.

And there's a fair amount of opensource projects that aren't under the GPL license, and are included in most/lots of distributions.

Insisting on calling a distribution GNU/Linux imho equals downplaying the importance on non-gnu/non-gpl projects, and I find that rather distasteful and self-important of the GNU guys.

I wasn't aware of some loopholes in/interpretations of the GPL that allowed use with non-GPL code. I'd then made another assumption and made an ass out of u and me. :) It happens. :P

Personally, I also find the OSI somewhat arrogant. I have source licenses for software, but they're not OSI approved.  :-\

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 07:37 AM
I hate these lists precisely because of the controversy they engender, the snarky remarks, the outlandish claims, the smug retorts, the arguments that go on and on and on and on...

Use Windows if it works for you.
Use Linux if it works for you.
Use both if it suits you.

Both have their merits and their drawbacks; deal with it, live with your choice, leave well enough alone, and don't feed the trolls.

That said, I apologize in advance, but I just can't let this go (and I'm not calling mahesh2k a troll, either :P)...

1. You’re Tired of Paying for Software
No. Tired of being a freebie-sucker and i want to support myself and other develoeprs.
I'm a "freebie-sucker" because my income doesn't allow me to purchase software for which I find acceptable freeware alternatives?
Jeez, first you call me a cheapskate, and now this...
2. You’re Tired of Upgrading Hardware
So that keeps me from playing upcoming games ? no thanks. i'll update hardware frequently and play games instead of pretending to live frugal life just for the sake of lazyness. :D
I'm lazy because I can't afford the latest whiz-bang constantly slung at me by game magazine advertisements?
This has NOTHING to do with my personal motivation level and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I can run a modern operating system on hardware that doesn't require a new line of credit every 6 months.
I can even play games.
 :o
3. You’re Tired of Malware
There are no malware for chrome and firefox irrespective of platform ? ;)
Yeah, this dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp already.
Malware is not inherently Windows fault, it's the fault of the malware purveyors being aware of their market and how to exploit it.
Linux users are not completely immune to (for example) Flash and Java exploits that harvest data, but there are 90-99% more Windows machines with much more delicious data stored in the same place on every machine, which makes them an irresistable target.
Sorry.
4. You’ve Seen One Too Many Patch Tuesdays
There are no patches in linux software ? i wonder why gcc and other supported libs are updated frequently on every software package when synaptic finds out.
Hehe... I have to agree I don't see the point here.
Updates happen quite frequently in any repository-based distribution, and they happen any day of the week.
*shrug*
5. You Don’t Have the Time
linux increases amount of time i spent on it to sort things out. Don't tell me linux saves time.
single drive multiple(countless) folders (linux)thinking saves time ? or multiple drives and multiple folders (windows way)save time and are easy to sort out ? ;)
What does the structure of a filesystem and disk mount points have to do with the amount of your available free time?
If you're talking about setting up system parameters and application preferences that you're unfamiliar with, fine, yes, that's going to take some time.
Windows requires babysitting as well, most people are just much more familiar with the environment and the process, which translates to "faster".
OK, sure, I'll admit that at for a long while the filesystem baffled me and I spent a lot of time in the early years trying to "sort things out" before I finally learned why it is the way it is.
BUT... once I figured that out, I discovered that ~90% of the time there is no real reason to muck about with the root filesystem, so I made myself cozy in /home/edvard and occasionally /opt and I'm doing much better.
Incidentally, the same goes for Windows; it took me just as many years to figure out that the less time I spent in C:\windows\system32 and more in C:\Documents and Settings\edvard the happier I was.
BTW, in Linux you can set up multiple drives in more ways than I even know how, and I've actually found it WAY more flexible than Windows.
Just sayin'...
6. You Like Speed
for what ? games? let's face it. It's not profitable to write games for linux and so the speed is useless when it comes to linux gaming.
Dude, you've thrown this gauntlet down before and I've thrown it right back at you but you obviously didn't catch it.
There are MANY legitimate reasons why NOT to write games for Linux, but it HAS NOW BEEN PROVEN that profit (or lack thereof) is NOT one of them.
http://www.hemispheregames.com/2010/06/23/linux-the-numbers/
http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-there-is-market-for-linux-games.html
Besides, WTF does this point have to do with game profitability?
This one can be demonstrated by the fact that right now I'm typing this post in Xubuntu on a single-core 64-bit 4GB RAM machine that consistently outperforms the quad-core 6GB RAM machine running Windows XP that I am forced to wrestle with at work.
Betcha the games are faster, too.
7. You Like Sharing
share what ? music ? illegal stuff ? :coughs:
What.
Ever.  
:-\
Windows users were sharing MP3s and cracked software before Linux even had a decent desktop.
Your insinuation is illogical at best and malicious at worst.
What is referred to is the fact that when I'm done installing the latest Linux, I can hand the CD to my friend and he can also install it without worrying about licenses, validations, activations and so forth, which I could NEVER do (legally) with Windows.
That's just the nature of the game, no more, no less.
8. You Don’t Actually Love Internet Explorer
Never used it ever since 2007. Firefox and opera is beating that child of MS for long time already.
Agreed.
And Opera even has a Linux version  :D
9. You Want to Be in Control
I'm in control.
I'm sure you are, especially if you're a half-decent system administrator, which I'm assuming is true.
Personally, I've never felt more in control of a computer than the day I fully grasped the implications of running Linux instead of Windows.
It's not just GUI vs. command line, it's not about dealing with registry corruption, fiddly permissions, malware/viruses/etc, it's not a question of hating Microsoft or Apple or Adobe or any of that nonsense.
It's something quite nebulous and intangible that only comes with the experience of being a long-time Linux user, the moment you know you'll never turn back, that moment...
I'm sorry, I can't go on...
Inspirational music just started playing in my head and it must now stop.  
:P
10. You’re One of a Kind
Writing scripts on command line to do simple tasks when 2 clicks can do job ? No, i'm not unique then. :D
Hehe... Yeah, this one is kind of subjective.
Just because one runs Linux doesn't make one any more or less unique.
Hell, a few choice DC apps and a new desktop wallpaper and my Windows machine at work can be pretty darn unique. ;p
BTW - depending on the task at hand, a few "scripts on command line" can take your 2 clicks to the mat any time.
Seriously, keep count of how many mouse clicks and menu options you have to go through to do an average administration task.
I bet it's more than you realize, but since you're more familiar with the process, you experience it as "easier".
Since getting familiar with common tasks in Linux that require command line operations, I've found that to be much easier and more powerful.
It's all in the familiarity...

Mahesh, I fully support you in your efforts to develop software intended to provide superior functionality for an equitable price that will hopefully provide for as much of your livelihood as possible.
I understand that most often such an endeavor requires developing for and with Windows, and freeware/open source simply cannot promise to put food on the table; nobody can argue that.
However, I cannot stand by the perception that developing for Linux with commercial intent is inherently a losing proposition because "Linux users will not pay for software".
It is a flat myth that has been proven false many times over, and the sooner this misconception is put to death, the better off both worlds will be.

In fact, why not do as others have and just try developing a commercial software project that is cross-platform; something that fills a need for Linux users as well as Windows and Mac.
Something that either has no Linux software equivalent or is sufficiently advanced to render existing software patently inferior by comparison.
See if you don't profit more than you foresaw, even if it is only a small percentage compared to Windows sales (Linux is, after all, only 1-5% of desktop market share, right?).

Prove me wrong.
I DARE you...
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 01, 2011, 08:33 AM
As Linux is GPL, how does any distribution NOT become GPL? That violates the license. And if it's GPL, then it's GNU.
Unless I'm really mistaken, licensing something under the GPL does not make it GNU.

There's a lot of software in every linux distribution not written by the GNU project people.

Yes.

Maybe now there is.

But back when the two projects first started to coexist, almost everything (like 90%) that makes Linux generally usable was written by the GNU people. Most of the critical subsystems, utilities, and services still are GNU code projects. So please don't confuse a Linux distro with Linux itself. That's a layman's mistake which only serves to generate an endless supply of flamebait.

And while we're at it, let's not lump all code together, nor give the size of a codebase more significance than it deserves. Far better to pay attention to the functionalities the code provides.

A kernal is tiny but absolutely essential. And in the case of Linux, it was the effort of a handful of people.

A game may have tens of millions of lines of code, require years of work, and an army of programmers.

But I don't think anybody could argue that a sprawling game is more 'important' or 'significant' than that little kernal that sits beneath it. To do so would be like comparing apples with oranges.


And there's a fair amount of opensource projects that aren't under the GPL license, and are included in most/lots of distributions.

Insisting on calling a distribution GNU/Linux imho equals downplaying the importance on non-gnu/non-gpl projects, and I find that rather distasteful and self-important of the GNU guys.

Again, now there is.

<*sigh*> You really do need to look at the history to grok what went down with the whole GNU/Linux and LiGNUx name thing. Because when taken out of its historical context, it will seem like nothing more than egotism and petty squabbling.

Both sides had 'arguments' and issues which most of the people who were involved have long gotten over.  

And both sides were equally wrong - and equally right, IMHO.  8)

 :) :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 01, 2011, 08:43 AM
I hate these lists precisely because of the controversy they engender, the snarky remarks, the outlandish claims, the smug retorts, the arguments that go on and on and on and on...

+1  :Thmbsup:

For 2011, and in the spirit of Mark Twain (who's autobiography I am now reading) I've decided my sole response to lists like that will be:

I'm happy fer ya! How 'bout all y'all go use whatever you damn well please - and not tell me about it.

 ;D
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 12:16 PM
I hate these lists precisely because of the controversy they engender, the snarky remarks, the outlandish claims, the smug retorts, the arguments that go on and on and on and on...


If the lists had something intelligent to say, it would be different. However, they're invariably written by tech authors with no good ideas.


Use Windows if it works for you.
Use Linux if it works for you.
Use both if it suits you.


Interesting how you never mention OS X. ;)


Yeah, this dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp already.
Malware is not inherently Windows fault, it's the fault of the malware purveyors being aware of their market and how to exploit it.
Linux users are not completely immune to (for example) Flash and Java exploits that harvest data, but there are 90-99% more Windows machines with much more delicious data stored in the same place on every machine, which makes them an irresistable target.
Sorry.

Good point, and one that is lost on many in the *nix community, especially their bastard, inbred cousins in the OS X community. :P (Sorry, couldn't resist that one -- heard the "Macs can't get viruses" BS once too often.)


BUT... once I figured that out, I discovered that ~90% of the time there is no real reason to muck about with the root filesystem, so I made myself cozy in /home/edvard and occasionally /opt and I'm doing much better.
Incidentally, the same goes for Windows; it took me just as many years to figure out that the less time I spent in C:\windows\system32 and more in C:\Documents and Settings\edvard the happier I was.


Good point.


BTW, in Linux you can set up multiple drives in more ways than I even know how, and I've actually found it WAY more flexible than Windows.
Just sayin'...


How so? I'm curious.


Dude, you've thrown this gauntlet down before and I've thrown it right back at you but you obviously didn't catch it.
There are MANY legitimate reasons why NOT to write games for Linux, but it HAS NOW BEEN PROVEN that profit (or lack thereof) is NOT one of them.
http://www.hemispheregames.com/2010/06/23/linux-the-numbers/
http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-there-is-market-for-linux-games.html


Sorry, but this is a bad argument... At the moment.

There simply aren't that many games out there for Linux (which may mean it's a good time to get into the market), so those that are in the market take up greater profits. Limited surveys... Bad data.

Even when you look at the game revenue, Windows sales are more than double Linux. What would any sane developer do? Develop for Windows of course!

I just don't see the revenue thing as an attraction for developers... Yet.

e.g. I'd rather get $1 from 1,000,000 people than $100 from 100 people. (Exaggeration intentional.)

It is getting better now, but I am not sure that it's there. Well, let me qualify that.

I think that it's there for large developers that can sink the money in and wait. It's not there for 1-man-bands. Windows is.


9. You Want to Be in Control
I'm in control.
I'm sure you are, especially if you're a half-decent system administrator, which I'm assuming is true.
Personally, I've never felt more in control of a computer than the day I fully grasped the implications of running Linux instead of Windows.
It's not just GUI vs. command line, it's not about dealing with registry corruption, fiddly permissions, malware/viruses/etc, it's not a question of hating Microsoft or Apple or Adobe or any of that nonsense.
It's something quite nebulous and intangible that only comes with the experience of being a long-time Linux user, the moment you know you'll never turn back, that moment...
I'm sorry, I can't go on...
Inspirational music just started playing in my head and it must now stop. 
:P


Freedom perhaps?

10. You’re One of a Kind
Hehe... Yeah, this one is kind of subjective.


Very~! :D


Just because one runs Linux doesn't make one any more or less unique.


But if you "think different" and have an iMac or iPhone just like everyone else, then you ARE unique~! :P

"I'm not~!"


Hell, a few choice DC apps and a new desktop wallpaper and my Windows machine at work can be pretty darn unique. ;p


:D

Don't forget to find your duplicate photos with... Errr... Ummm... Blatant self-promotion has been interrupted to bring you these messages: :)


BTW - depending on the task at hand, a few "scripts on command line" can take your 2 clicks to the mat any time.
Seriously, keep count of how many mouse clicks and menu options you have to go through to do an average administration task.
I bet it's more than you realize, but since you're more familiar with the process, you experience it as "easier".
Since getting familiar with common tasks in Linux that require command line operations, I've found that to be much easier and more powerful.
It's all in the familiarity...


Agreed. Still...

I drop to the command line all the time... BUT... That requires knowledge.

Knowledge comes at a price. Time and effort. How many people want to spend those?

THIS is a core problem with so much of the Linux community.

People do not care about anything except making their life easier. They'd rather spend 2 minutes doing something rather than solve the problem with a bit of knowledge and typing a bit. People are LAZY beyond all human comprehension.

The ease scale goes like this:

1) Apple
2) Microsoft
3) null
4) null
5) Linux

Apple is at the top because they only let you do so many things.

Microsoft lets you do anything if someone solves the problem for you.

Linux lets you do anything if you want to solve the problem yourself.


Well, that's an exaggeration, but it's close. It's a perceived thing. Truth is, a lot of what you get on Linux is easier than what you get on Apple.


Core issue: People are lazy and don't care to learn squat. :(


Mahesh, I fully support you in your efforts to develop software intended to provide superior functionality for an equitable price that will hopefully provide for as much of your livelihood as possible.
I understand that most often such an endeavor requires developing for and with Windows, and freeware/open source simply cannot promise to put food on the table; nobody can argue that.
However, I cannot stand by the perception that developing for Linux with commercial intent is inherently a losing proposition because "Linux users will not pay for software".
It is a flat myth that has been proven false many times over, and the sooner this misconception is put to death, the better off both worlds will be.


The problem is that Linux software development is still too expensive for most software for most small developers.

Your average small developer just can't afford it.

It is profitable for larger developers and development houses. They can afford it now. That's a good thing.

I mean to exclude server markets though as we're really talking about the desktop and not servers.



In fact, why not do as others have and just try developing a commercial software project that is cross-platform; something that fills a need for Linux users as well as Windows and Mac.
Something that either has no Linux software equivalent or is sufficiently advanced to render existing software patently inferior by comparison.
See if you don't profit more than you foresaw, even if it is only a small percentage compared to Windows sales (Linux is, after all, only 1-5% of desktop market share, right?).


THIS is the reason why I'm such a fan of Mono. I've been watching Mono since it first came out, and it's prime time now.

A lot of people here have serious reservations about Mono, but I don't see any decent alternative.

C++? Slow.

Python? Interpreted.

Objective-C? Muahahahahahahahahahahah~! (Ridicule intended.)

C? Any masochists around?

Java? Hasn't worked very well so far.

RealBasic? Better.

OR... Some language like...

#S | #Smalltalk | A# | Active Oberon | APLNext | AVR.NET | Boo | C# | C++/CLI | clojure-clr | COBOL2002 for .NET Framework | Cobra | Common Larceny | Component Pascal | Delphi.NET | Delta Forth .NET | DotLisp | dylan.NET Launchpad·Gitorious | EiffelEnvision | F# | Fantom | Fortran .NET | Gardens Point Modula-2/CLR | GrGen.NET | IoNET | IronLisp | IronPython | IronRuby | IronScheme | J# | Ja.NET | JScript .NET | L# | LOLCode.NET | Managed Extensions for C++ | Managed JScript | Mercury on .NET | Nemerle | Net Express | NetCOBOL | Oxygene | OxygenScheme | P# | Phalanger | Phrogram | PL/IL | PowerBuilder | sml.net | Synergy.NET | VB.NET | VBx | Visual COBOL | Windows PowerShell | X# | Zonnon

Ahem. Which of the 55 flavors do you like?

Yes. Mono only supports so much right now. But it's the right direction.

I love choice and freedom, and there are some great possibilities out there right now.


Prove me wrong.
I DARE you...


I wish I could. I can't. I'm too small to develop for the Linux market. I'd starve to death. And my wife would be really pissed too. Then force me into some kind of slavery. Then I'd be really sorry that I'd ever tried. And I would cry. And look like a little girl. Which would be very embarassing. So I'd probably pee my pants making the situation worse. And cry more. The probably shit my pants to boot. Not good. I'm scared now.

:D :P

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 12:19 PM
C++ is not "slow". Compare the startup time of a C++ and a Java application and shut up.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 12:21 PM
C++ is not "slow". Compare the startup time of a C++ and a Java application and shut up.

I meant development time.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 12:29 PM
Development in Java takes more time than in C++ because you'll have to work around all its misconceptions.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 12:36 PM
Development in Java takes more time than in C++ because you'll have to work around all its misconceptions.

Go back and read.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 12:44 PM
I have.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 12:50 PM
I have.

Sigh...

Read again. I was comparing languages in the context of a developer's perspective with several different considerations.

"Slow" for C++ referred to development speed.

"Interpreted" for Python should be obvious.

C is for hardcores. Development speed is very slow. For general software development it has no place. For specific purposes, it is essential.

My Objective-C comment is an inside joke.

etc.

Would you like to tell me to shut up again?

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 12:54 PM
Sure, at a later point. :)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 01, 2011, 01:10 PM
@TMan & Ren - You guys are starting to generate a bit more heat than light right now. Could we maybe go back to where it was still friendly and interesting? :)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Tuxman on January 01, 2011, 01:19 PM
Well, it's cold outside!
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: f0dder on January 01, 2011, 02:13 PM
C++ is not "slow". Compare the startup time of a C++ and a Java application and shut up.
Startup time is not necessarily the best indication of execution speed anyway - there's scenarios where both Java and .NET will likely be a better fit than normal-style C++ code.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 07:13 PM
RE: Linux games.

I am going to stand on this point until a hole wears in my foot, so please bear with me.  ;)

1- I am not and never have suggesting somebody develop solely for Linux with commercial ventures in mind.
All the cases I've quoted and claims I've made are coming from a cross-platform mentality.
So, OF COURSE you're going to get your bread and butter from Windows customers, sheer numbers make that argument for you, it would be more than stupid to think otherwise.
My point is that if you can get bread and butter with a little jam on the side for minimal extra investment, why would you NOT do it?
I know, I know, time is money, and there's this great joke about Linux being "free" if your time is worth nothing...
Yes, it'll take time to get familiar with another operating system, but many people have already done that developing cross-platform for Mac, and once you learn a programming language, the battle is half won.
I know it doesn't universally apply to every application, but in many cases it has been proven to work, and the more this happens, the quicker the myth dies and everyone benefits.

2- Small shops vs. big devs.
Every case I've linked to are to game production houses that are arguably not all that big.
Can anyone argue that 2DBoy is bigger than Adobe, or Frictional Games better staffed than Intuit?
No! Yet they are the ones ACTUALLY MAKING MONEY from cross-platform development.
This is not an argument of $1 from 1,000,000 people vs. $100 from 100 people, this is being able to charge $1.50 if you invite 10,000 more people to the party (1% of 1,000,000 is 10,000... just sayin').
You say the data is bad because there aren't that many Linux games, but you're forgetting one point; they're not selling to Linux users per se, they're selling to GAMERS, and gaming is a fairly saturated market yet it consistently sees more commerce than even Hollywood.
The fact that people purchasing games to run on Linux even makes a BLIP in the radar is beyond amazing.

BOTTOM LINE -
If somebody doesn't WANT to develop cross-platform or even just not for Linux (I see a LOT more PC-Mac versions than PC-Mac-Linux), that's perfectly fine.
It would be nice to just be told the truth, rather than rapidly-disappearing myths of revenue lost on development to a non-paying miniscule market share.
What software company (yes, even small developers) HASN'T lost money on development costs before catching stride?
Pull up your pants, look Linux users in the eye and say "I don't like you people and you are not worth my time".
We will go elsewhere, and Elsewhere stands to make a tidy profit off of us, I can assure you...
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 10:57 PM
Looking at the guys at Hemisphere games, wow. They're serious heavyweights.

Anyways, I think I didn't phrase things very well there.

If you can pick up an extra 10%, like some game developers mentioned above, well, 10% is 10%. The only real consideration is whether you can get it there for less than that 10%. Which is pretty much determined by the size of the company/revenue.

e.g. For a company with 10 people and $1 million in revenue, it's a much more important decision than for a company with 10 people and $5 million in revenue. Resource allocation in the first case is much tighter.

For a lot of developers, they have 1 or 2 people, so the consideration is much more important and needs much more consideration.

If you have revenue of $100,000 from a product, an extra $10,000 may or may not be worth it. If you can get another platform version done in 2 months, then it's certainly worth it. If it takes you 6 months... Things are getting scary because you're messing with the food on your table at that point.

A sort of twisted inverse is also true -- not the size of the developer/revenue, but the size of the product. Very large products (code base that is) are more difficult. e.g. Could Adobe port it's Creative Suite to Linux? The complexity there is pretty much a show stopper.

I came off too quick saying, "...this is a bad argument... At the moment." The qualifications for that don't come until later.

Most developers are very small shops. Once you start going through and looking behind a lot of them, it's "a guy in a garage". It's really them that I'm talking about.

Incidentally, the last game I bought is running on Linux. Well, Android, but still Linux. :)

I'm currently facing the cross-platform issue and will need to decide in a couple months or so. Go truly cross platform? Cross-platform then fork? Go with independent versions? Different languages?

I've been thinking about this for a very... very... very... very... very... LLLLLLLOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG time...

Here's an example that I've pulled out from the source code of GDT. This particular snippet was written about 4 years ago:

Code: C# [Select]
  1. // F**k... Have to use the Windows API here -- no managed C# way to do this.
  2.         // For Windows Mobile, replace user32.dll with coredll.dll
  3.         [DllImport("user32.dll")]
  4.         [return: MarshalAs(UnmanagedType.Bool)]
  5.         static extern bool SetForegroundWindow(IntPtr hWnd);

The first comment line is echoed everywhere I use it.

I'm hoping that I can go back and find something new to replace that though.

Still, even years ago I saw Mono and knew that it would be an answer in the future.

I like the idea of having a little conditional compilation as possible, and having the same source base. I really don't want to have a C#, C++, and Objective-C version.

I also like managed code, but will certainly use unmanaged if the case warrants it. Here's a line from the Duplicate Photo Finder I wrote for NANY 2011:

Code: C# [Select]
  1. public unsafe UInt32 Hash(Byte[] dataToHash)

And it not working :( in Ubuntu:

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

The file browsers don't work there because it's coded for the Windows file system. I've not investigated how to fix that.

But the application is very simple and already there are problems. File systems. Yuck. What a lame reason for something not to work properly... Sigh...

The number of problems that need to be solved for different platforms makes things tough.

It boils down to risk management and resource allocation (human resources and developer resources, not memory :) ).

I'm quite certain that Linux offers significant profit. The real question for developers is if they believe that their time investment will pay off.

You're quite right though about the market being for gamers there. It's saturated, and difficult. I know guys that do games, and they're constantly plugging away to make things work. It's hard.

With technology advances, the bar comes down though. The size of the developer/revenue is a good indication of when they'll be able to jump over the bar. e.g. For a free and open source program like Duplicate Photo Finder, the motivations for me to get a Linux version done are pretty small, and not really enough to get me to jump over that bar and do it. However, it would be an excellent exercise for me to do that I could take information away and use elsewhere. Got me thinking now... Sigh... I need to stop and get the house cleaned. It's a disaster.

In any event, it looks to me like Mono is still one of the best options. This is the year that I'll be diving in and (hopefully) swimming the icy cross-platform channel. At the moment I think I'll be starting at the end of January.

And with any luck, I may be able to get you to give me some money~! :D :P

I think I'll start on the laundry first...
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Edvard on January 01, 2011, 11:24 PM
Good points well made.
Despite the sparring, I'm beginning to believe you and I are rowing the same direction, albeit on different boats.
You're welcome aboard any time, skipper.  ;)

And with any luck, I may be able to get you to give me some money~!   :D :P

I'm actually looking forward to it!  ;D
Hell, it might even be the first Mono app I install on purpose... (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/hiding.gif)

(please forgive the Mono-paranoia, others have enumerated reasons far more abundantly and eloquently than I can. Suffice it to say I will avoid it until it is unavoidable, which it soon may be...)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 01, 2011, 11:45 PM
Good points well made.
Despite the sparring, I'm beginning to believe you and I are rowing the same direction, albeit on different boats.
You're welcome aboard any time, skipper.  ;)


Agreed. It's a difficult topic. I sometimes don't articulate things properly the first time around.


And with any luck, I may be able to get you to give me some money~!   :D :P

I'm actually looking forward to it!  ;D


ME TOO~! :D

(This year has really taken the wind out of my sails with 2.5 months spent overseas, wedding reception in Canada, software conference in the US, wedding and 2 receptions in Vietnam...)


Hell, it might even be the first Mono app I install on purpose... (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/hiding.gif)

(please forgive the Mono-paranoia, others have enumerated reasons far more abundantly and eloquently than I can. Suffice it to say I will avoid it until it is unavoidable, which it soon may be...)


The patent scare from MS is there, and I understand the reservations, but they have the right idea: A spec. that lets you write software in any language you want for any OS (where the spec. is implemented naturally). It's simply brilliant. The CLI really is spectacular.

I'm basically trapped in Windows with no real options. I wish I had a choice. But I have to work in the same world as my clients. Which for me is just all the more reason to root for what I see as the best option in moving to making the OS irrelevant.

Back to cleaning...

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: JavaJones on January 02, 2011, 05:06 PM
The games market may be saturated on platforms that actually have lots of games (i.e. Windows and consoles), but I think that's a much more dubious statement in relation to platforms with very few games. You can't generalize the entire market because of the very strong differences between platforms and their respective audiences/markets.

Mac and Linux in particular are still fairly open markets because there are not many game options on either. Mac is getting better, as is Linux, at different rates, with Mac getting some larger games faster than Linux. But still both have far fewer games than Windows and console platforms, so saturation is much less of an issue.

I also want to support and somewhat reiterate what Renegade said about dev time vs. anticipated profits. This is an unfortunate but very real factor that drives the reality of gaming on Linux and, to an extend, Mac. It's not just a matter of market size, which is certainly an important consideration. A dev also has to think about how much time, energy, and ultimately money they need to spend to support a platform. If one platform costs you an additional 10% of your dev budget to support, it better end up selling more than 10% of your game copies, otherwise it's just break-even and not worth it.

This issue is further compounded on Linux, more so even than OS X, by the poorer (though improving) standardization and support across distros, especially for 3D graphics, and also by the lesser availability of tools, engines, and knowledge for game dev on Linux vs. Windows or even OS X. One big example would be the Source Engine, available for Windows, Max OS X, and the major consoles, but not Linux. This ties in with the lack of Steam availability on Linux, rumored to be coming for some time now, but still not available (this would be a big boost for Linux game dev as it's used quite a lot now by small devs for game distribution and payment). Fortunately the Unreal Engine is available on Linux, but it does generally run games that are more expensive to create and thus higher risk for minor platforms. These are just examples, the general availability of game dev tools on Linux is just not as good as Windows.

It takes a bit of vision to take a risk on a platform with less possible customers, and fortunately that's exactly what we see happening with OS X and, to a lesser extend, Linux these days. It's still a risk. The risk is unfortunately higher with the Linux platform due to having fewer available tools, engines, and general knowledge base to draw on. This makes time and cost go up, and makes the already small Linux market become less attractive.

So the bottom line is if anyone wants Linux to become a more attractive gaming platform, they don't just need to be willing to pay for games, they have to support the development of good tools for game development. Cross platform dev is not easy or cheap, but it can be made much more so through availability of proper tools.

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 02, 2011, 08:46 PM
Cross platform dev is not easy or cheap, but it can be made much more so through availability of proper tools.

Amen~!

To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again...

GO MONO~! :D
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 02, 2011, 09:38 PM
To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again... To sound like a broken record again...

GO MONO~! :D

Sorry.

Strongly disagree.

Insanely bad idea.

Spoiler
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]


Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 02, 2011, 09:42 PM
I know... A lot of people are skeptical...

But can anyone name an alternative that offers what the CLI offers? There isn't one.

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: mahesh2k on January 02, 2011, 10:16 PM
Edward,

I'm a "freebie-sucker" because my income doesn't allow me to purchase software for which I find acceptable freeware alternatives? Jeez, first you call me a cheapskate, and now this...
;D Hey, even i'm freebie sucker when it comes to software which goes over price tag of 2000$ onwards, and yes there are commercial softwares which costs this high (either via subscription or box purchase). Point is about people who are knocking down on commercial software asking to release it for free, that's just freebie-sucking in my opinion.

I'm lazy because I can't afford the latest whiz-bang constantly slung at me by game magazine advertisements?
Let's face this, that point in the list is too subjective and so is my reply to that point and in turn yours as well to my reply. People upgrade hardware for new games if they afford it and if not they keep it up for long time, edward.

What does the structure of a filesystem and disk mount points have to do with the amount of your available free time?If you're talking about setting up system parameters and application preferences that you're unfamiliar with, fine, yes, that's going to take some time.Windows requires babysitting as well, most people are just much more familiar with the environment and the process, which translates to "faster".
No, i was talking about learning curve to visualizing folders in same or multiple drives. This is issue for those who are new to computers, and in turn it affects their time of using any OS. We work it out on UNIX/Linux because we take our time for learning the system, that's not the case with casual users who are learning computers while keeping track of time. Data sorting on multiple drives is easy for newbies, as per my Observation.

Dude, you've thrown this gauntlet down before and I've thrown it right back at you but you obviously didn't catch it.There are MANY legitimate reasons why NOT to write games for Linux, but it HAS NOW BEEN PROVEN that profit (or lack thereof) is NOT one of them.
I took that point by keeping myself in shoes as game developer and gamer. You know we talk a lot about speed mostly when we play graphics intensive games. And surely people are less likely to play games unless those games are packed under marketing catch like - STEAM or other online gaming repository. Profit is always the first point of small game dev company or even large because it costs money to pay for graphics and programming. Linux users who don't afford to purchase 50$ commercial softwares will lift any game which is priced at the same ? It's just my observation from what i see in gaming zones and cafes in my city.

Windows users were sharing MP3s and cracked software before Linux even had a decent desktop.
Your insinuation is illogical at best and malicious at worst.
File sharing cult become popular on linux platform first before it was adopted by large windows userbase. So it's not illogical, GNUTella and many other packages were first made for linux then windows if i'm not wrong. Intention wasn't deceptive on linux platform though because everything was free there but that was not the case with windows because it infected other domains like music, files and books.


I'm sure you are, especially if you're a half-decent system administrator, which I'm assuming is true.
Personally, I've never felt more in control of a computer than the day I fully grasped the implications of running Linux instead of Windows.
I've to agree if you're pointing me towards server administration with linux (AFA web hosting and script management is concerned i prefer linux as well) but for desktop usability and learning curve is important as well and there windows comes in for me.

However, I cannot stand by the perception that developing for Linux with commercial intent is inherently a losing proposition because "Linux users will not pay for software".
I can understand your view on this but if you study consumer behavior then your opinion will definitely change. Take a look at this, we have to get X work done and for that we're going to take help of OS. Say X is work of sending some file via browser and any modern OS will do the job. In such case consumer will select minimum resistance path, which is linux in this case. This operating system is free and beating commercial OS on every possible way. Now take case of games or any other app which are paid or made by small team of dev or business. What are the chances that will tempt consumers to buy app or game ? Trust me, very low. We have to study shopper's psychology more in order to get the guesstimate of sales. It's not because consumers are cheap or freebie-suckers all the time, but it's because of GNU/FSF modified consumer behavior in large scale and changed the way market works. Even small business who wants to develop some productive software will think twice before charging upfront, current market only allows subscription or service model for them to survive. Unless you're desperate to get things done on computer as casual user, you'll not pay for things on software world for example, you'll not buy media player anymore because it's free on every platform(which earlier was paid software during 1999-2002 time) but you'll pay for managed scripting, outsourced task and server management even if the platform is free, you'll pay for service. What about games ? Unless price is low or free, people will hardly buy  games for linux. During initial phase of desktop market of linux, they'll buy games if they're desperate to play games, else they'll not at all. Piracy/cracking will also remain on linux or unix as well, there is nothing that remains protected for long time anyway. Now put yourself into shoes of developer who wants to make money to bring food on table, which platform gives you more profitable option ? One thing i learned from social observation is that if you keep on helping others by writing free software without any strings, they'll only pay attention as long as source is active and once you become inactive as source for their free info/stuff, they move to another one without even thinking who you are or what you did for them(that's life afterall), so why starve in life? Either work on donation model or start charging some bucks upfront. I'm in favor of charging for software or in some cases releasing it for free if possible no matter what's the platform. But i'm not in favor of conversion/preaching lists like the one we see here from that link where attempt was to badmouth other OS just to get more users without showing them bigger picture of profit and GTD.

In fact, why not do as others have and just try developing a commercial software project that is cross-platform; something that fills a need for Linux users as well as Windows and Mac.
For small biz/individual developer, it's very hard to select library that is cross-platform and gets things going quickly. QT is free but there is licensing issue. Java/Mono(for now) are not good options for commercial apps over long term is what i think, which many of you may disagree.

Forgive my typos/clutter, feeling damn sleepy now.  ;D

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 02, 2011, 10:27 PM
For small biz/individual developer, it's very hard to select library that is cross-platform and gets things going quickly. QT is free but there is licensing issue. Java/Mono(for now) are not good options for commercial apps over long term is what i think, which many of you may disagree.

I'm curious as to why you feel Mono isn't a good choice right now. (And Java too, but less interested in that as I tend to agree.)

There's this for QT for C#:

http://code.google.com/p/qt4dotnet/

But I wish there were a Nokia supported version. Using more complicated software is scary when you commit yourself to it. Small stuff that you can rip out and replace easily is one thing, but QT4dotnet... not sure... Looks interesting though. I should give it a spin. :)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: mahesh2k on January 02, 2011, 10:52 PM
I think it's too risky to spend time on device apps with mono, i doubt if they even exist for symbian and maemo/android.

Problem with QT is that for entry level programmers they either need to port it under GPL or pay for license(which is huge for individual developer), which restricts many solo-dev commercial apps. Thanks for the link, i'll take a look at qt4dotnet.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 02, 2011, 11:02 PM
I think it's too risky to spend time on device apps with mono, i doubt if they even exist for symbian and maemo/android.

Problem with QT is that for entry level programmers they either need to port it under GPL or pay for license(which is huge for individual developer), which restricts many solo-dev commercial apps. Thanks for the link, i'll take a look at qt4dotnet.

I'm not sure what you mean there.

Mono has a few basic versions:

* Mono (the core)
* MonoTouch (for iPhone)
* MonoDroid (for Android)

Out of the box, that's quite a bit of coverage.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: JavaJones on January 03, 2011, 01:29 AM
With Qt it's my understanding that you can just link to the Qt DLL libraries and, as long as you contribute any Qt modifications back, then your application itself doesn't need to be OS/GPL. I'm actually looking into this pretty seriously as an app I'm involved with may be ported within the next year, so I hope this is the case. :D

- Oshyan
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 03, 2011, 03:34 AM
With Qt it's my understanding that you can just link to the Qt DLL libraries and, as long as you contribute any Qt modifications back, then your application itself doesn't need to be OS/GPL. I'm actually looking into this pretty seriously as an app I'm involved with may be ported within the next year, so I hope this is the case. :D

- Oshyan

You're both correct. There are 3 options:

http://qt.nokia.com/products/licensing

   Commercial   License fee charged
   LGPL   No license fee
   GPL   No license fee

http://qt.nokia.com/products/pricing

$3,695 for 1 OS license. OUCH~!

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Edvard on January 03, 2011, 09:57 PM
@ mahesh2k:
Fair points; I think you've made your case a bit better this time around.
That first reply was a bit snarky, in my opinion, and sounded more like a backhand than answers.

I'm in full agreement that it is, at the very least, rude to ask a commercial developer (small or large) to release their hard-fought work for free.
You have every right to charge what you think is a fair price for your work, and anybody who has issue with that is not worth your time.
Good point also about the rise of subscription/service model of modern software.
So much stuff is moving to "the cloud" that subscription appears to be the ONLY way to profit, sadly.

[edit: cut out yet another long-winded answer]

Once again, I fully support you in your efforts and I hope you do well.
Developing for Windows has obviously provided for you and I'm sure will continue to in the future.
Just PLEASE don't offhandedly dismiss Linux as a potential market.
If it is at all possible, jump in now while there is still time or you WILL be surpassed by those who will.
It has happened to me personally (in a different industry), and I regret it.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: rssapphire on January 04, 2011, 09:39 PM
I'm in full agreement that it is, at the very least, rude to ask a commercial developer (small or large) to release their hard-fought work for free.

I disagree on general free market principles. In a working free market it is the job of producers to maximize their profits and it's the job of consumers to get the best product for their needs at the lowest possible price. Only when both producers and consumers do their respective jobs well does a free market economy truly work. And since the lowest possible price is free there's really nothing wrong with consumers asking for it -- as asking for free is often a good way to drive prices down. The goal of free can seldom be reached, of course, but consumers should be trying just as hard to push the price toward free as the producers are trying to maximize their profits. Therefore, I don't think it is any more rude for a consumer to ask for free than it is for a producer to raise prices.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 04, 2011, 10:37 PM
I'm in full agreement that it is, at the very least, rude to ask a commercial developer (small or large) to release their hard-fought work for free.

I disagree on general free market principles. In a working free market it is the job of producers to maximize their profits and it's the job of consumers to get the best product for their needs at the lowest possible price. Only when both producers and consumers do their respective jobs well does a free market economy truly work. And since the lowest possible price is free there's really nothing wrong with consumers asking for it -- as asking for free is often a good way to drive prices down. The goal of free can seldom be reached, of course, but consumers should be trying just as hard to push the price toward free as the producers are trying to maximize their profits. Therefore, I don't think it is any more rude for a consumer to ask for free than it is for a producer to raise prices.

Free does not fit into the free market. Since free is zero (0), it isn't a real part of the market because there's no commerce there.

Mathematically it wont work. Start throwing zero into equations and eventually you'll end up with a div by zero error. :P

But seriously -- that's the problem -- you will get a div by zero error, at which place everything falls to pieces. 

Then again, there is a "workaround" or hack for consumers to get things for free... It's called robbery or theft. And you don't get a div by zero error. :)

Asking for software for free is no different than asking for a free meal at a restaurant, or free groceries at the supermarket, or free gas at the pump.

The number system does not include zero. Zero causes errors. ;)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: zridling on January 05, 2011, 12:27 AM
Don't underestimate the value of social coding (https://github.com/), which not only allows people to reuse a bunch of code out there, but provided the [GNU] tools for Linux to be built, and then for it to be refined and quickly upgraded to version 1.0. Before the decade was over (the 1990s, that is), many Fortune 500 companies saw the advantage of the Linux kernel and put their coders to work, customizing versions to their respective industries. As Edvard (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=25061.msg229515#msg229515) repeatedly hammers: don't shut doors based on old or second-hand misinformation about Linux. Immersion is the trick. Only when I stopped dual-booting and playing back and forth between my old Windows computer and the Linux system years ago did things finally start clicking.
________
Finally, candy. Found this neat cross-platform word processor called FocusWriter (http://gottcode.org/focuswriter/). It hides its UI, has themes, live stats and word count, and even document tabs. Simple and free, and in the spirit of Donationcoder, the author has a donation link right on the page. Nice!!
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 05, 2011, 09:32 AM
Re:Focus Writer

Prerty cool! I currently use WriteMonkey, which does much the same thing. But it's a Windows only app. Nice to see something that straddles multiple op systems.

Note: I'll likely switch over to the blank screen editor found in Liquid Story Binder "real soon now."  It's not that I have a problem with WriteMonkey. (I actually prefer it to LSB's version!)  But since I'm spending so much time in LSB, it's just easier to keep everything inside the one app so to speak.

My big goal for this year is to distill my work environment down to it's absolute essence. I feel I'm using far too many software tools to get my work done lately. (But I'd suspect that's  a fairly common 'occupational hazard' for folks like us.)

 :-* Simplify, simplify, simplify... :-*

(Man, I really must be getting old if I'm talking like that...  ;D)
        
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: zridling on January 05, 2011, 10:36 PM
My big goal for this year is to distill my work environment down to it's absolute essence. I feel I'm using far too many software tools to get my work done lately. (But I'd suspect that's  a fairly common 'occupational hazard' for folks like us.)
 :-* Simplify, simplify, simplify... :-*   (Man, I really must be getting old if I'm talking like that...  ;D)

Yea, but it's still an honorable goal, much like clearing the clutter out of your house or apartment. Been playing around with Nepomuk within Linux/KDE and REALLY like it, but don't use it enough to keep on the system. And I truly like Kate text editor, but again, Kwrite fills the need 95% of the time. Not having as much to administer leaves more time for content consumption.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: mahesh2k on January 06, 2011, 12:12 AM
@ mahesh2k:
Fair points; I think you've made your case a bit better this time around.
That first reply was a bit snarky, in my opinion, and sounded more like a backhand than answers.
It wasn't snarky IMO edward, but more answer to the way that list was formed. Lists are usually over-generalized no matter who do it (windows or linux fan boys).I'm not religious(in any way actually) when it comes to programming language or OS, like i said we care for bringing food on table and solving problems for customers. I do understand that i should get into linux coding during early phases but due to economy in this part of the world, it's hard to afford it and people here hardly pay for software so if this approach remains then there is no other option than cloud or subscription model. GNU/FSF people are actually shutting down all the financial models of software business (refer to how thesis theme owner got slammed by wordpress foundation because he charged for free software), these things in turn give linux or any other usable software a bad name when such lists come into blogs.

@rssapphire,
Therefore, I don't think it is any more rude for a consumer to ask for free than it is for a producer to raise prices.
Asking for free price to any product is no different than piracy. GNU/FSF model just forces paid developers to put their hard work for free and pirates steal it and release it for free. 'Stealing' is the only action that separates pirates and GNU/FSF people, at the end result is same, developers get slammed because of dropping their price of product to 0.

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: rssapphire on January 06, 2011, 08:08 AM
Asking for free price to any product is no different than piracy. GNU/FSF model just forces paid developers to put their hard work for free and pirates steal it and release it for free. 'Stealing' is the only action that separates pirates and GNU/FSF people, at the end result is same, developers get slammed because of dropping their price of product to 0.

It's still the duty of consumers in a free market to push the prices as low as possible (which means as close to free as they can get them). That's not stealing, that's the way a free market is supposed to work.  If consumers aren't pressing for the lowest price they can get, the market is broken in favor of producers.

And free is a price. Producers are under no obligation to make a profit, they have just as much right to give their property away as they do to charge for it -- it is their property after all. That's the whole point of owning property -- to be able to do with it as you want not do with it what others want.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 06, 2011, 08:56 AM
Re: free markets

FWIW, they really don't exist.  :(

Many economists would even argue it's doubtful a truly free market has ever existed since every market has been subject to some form of regulation or other non-economic influence throughout human history.

And that applies just as equally to black markets. In some respects, illegal businesses are regulated much more thoroughly (and severely) than their lawful cousins.

Many times, the only thing that separates a legal business activity from an illegal one is the permit that authorizes it. (e.g. In most societies, the use of physical violence is a government monopoly. That's why we have armies and police agencies. When butts need kicking, it's the exclusive perogative of the government to do it.)

Governments, on the other hand, feel no need to debate this topic. They already know there's no 'free' market because they won't allow it.

This is one reason why so much free market thinking breaks down. There are no free markets to apply it to.

Apparently it's not in our nature to let things find their own path or balance.  :)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: mahesh2k on January 09, 2011, 12:10 AM
@rssapphire

It's still the duty of consumers in a free market to push the prices as low as possible (which means as close to free as they can get them).

We're not in free market, we pay for our stuff be it food, medicine and other stuff. Free market doesn't exist in world where we pay for things. Point is about people who dream about free market shouldn't take down paid products or chase them to release it for free.

That's not stealing, that's the way a free market is supposed to work.

Please read my earlier post again, i said 'stealing' is the only action that separates pirates and Free philosophy people. What common is between these two is both of these types force product creators to release stuff for free because either they are lazy, free-bie sucker or simply don't want to pay for someone's hard work, they have no respect.


If consumers aren't pressing for the lowest price they can get, the market is broken in favor of producers.
And if consumers are only asking for free things in then there is no marketplace to exist to begin with, it';s just like some random tree with fruits hanging and anyone can come and pluck it type of world. Nobody cares for garden and gardener type of world. Such free thinking from consumers is breaking the marketplace.


And free is a price.


No. Free is where price is divisible by 0. Which makes it just another concept of infinity where people don't care at all about price of someone's hardwork but more of their own GTD. Value, morals are reduced to 0 when anything is tagged as Free.


Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: rssapphire on January 09, 2011, 10:34 AM
We're not in free market, we pay for our stuff be it food, medicine and other stuff. Free market doesn't exist in world where we pay for things. Point is about people who dream about free market shouldn't take down paid products or chase them to release it for free.

A "free market" in economics has nothing to do with "all products being free."
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 09, 2011, 02:00 PM
We're not in free market, we pay for our stuff be it food, medicine and other stuff. Free market doesn't exist in world where we pay for things. Point is about people who dream about free market shouldn't take down paid products or chase them to release it for free.

A "free market" in economics has nothing to do with "all products being free."

+1!  :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Deozaan on January 09, 2011, 10:12 PM
I can't believe someone confused the meaning of free in a GNU/Linux thread! ;)
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Edvard on January 09, 2011, 10:16 PM
I can  :mad: :mad: :mad:
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Deozaan on January 09, 2011, 10:29 PM
I can  :mad: :mad: :mad:

Yeah, I still don't understand the whole "free as in beer" thing. Beer is free?

They need to just say something like "free as in price" to clarify what they mean. Beer doesn't bring either definition of "free" to my mind.

Then again, beer frees you from your money and your inhibitions, so in a way I guess it could be talking about price or freedom (or both).
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 09, 2011, 11:19 PM
I can  :mad: :mad: :mad:

Yeah, I still don't understand the whole "free as in beer" thing. Beer is free?

They need to just say something like "free as in price" to clarify what they mean. Beer doesn't bring either definition of "free" to my mind.

Then again, beer frees you from your money and your inhibitions, so in a way I guess it could be talking about price or freedom (or both).

The whole "free beer" thing only confuses stuff. I don't know how that got started in the confused sense. The original is "Free as in free speech, and not free as in free beer".
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Deozaan on January 10, 2011, 01:29 AM
The original is "Free as in free speech, and not free as in free beer".

Even that's not simple enough for the masses. My brother and I once ran a somewhat popular website and when ads weren't providing enough income to cover the site we started to offer paid membership plans. We got a few e-mails complaining about it, one person even said something to the effect of "Why should I have to pay, it's a free country!"

So my point is that even using the word in a context that would imply the correct definition can still confuse people. That's why I strongly recommend something like "Free as in freedom as opposed to free as in price."

EDIT: clarified a sentence that didn't sound right after re-reading it.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 10, 2011, 02:31 AM
The original is "Free as in free speech, and not free as in free beer".

Even that's not simple enough for the masses. My brother and I once ran a somewhat popular website and when ads weren't providing enough income to cover the site we started to offer paid membership plans. We got a few e-mails complaining about it, one person even said something to the effect of "Why should I have to pay, it's a free country!"

So my point is that even using the word in a context that would imply the correct definition people still confuse it. That's why I strongly recommend something like "Free as in freedom as opposed to free as in price."

That is MUCH clearer. I only meant to quote the origin, which is the source of the confusion.  :huh:  :o

I like the "free country" bit. That's just funny that someone really is that stupid. Perhaps a distant cousin of Mrs. Malaprop. :P
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: app103 on January 10, 2011, 07:45 AM
I posted the free beer question (http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origin-of-the-expression-free-beer-and-why-did-the-free-software-movement-choose-free-as-in-beer-to-represent-the-concept-of-free-as-in-no-monetary-cost-freeware-when-nobody-really-gives-away-beer-for-free-like-they-give-away-freeware) on Quora because I'd love to know the true origin of that expression, myself.  :D
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 10, 2011, 08:41 AM
I posted the free beer question (http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-origin-of-the-expression-free-beer-and-why-did-the-free-software-movement-choose-free-as-in-beer-to-represent-the-concept-of-free-as-in-no-monetary-cost-freeware-when-nobody-really-gives-away-beer-for-free-like-they-give-away-freeware) on Quora because I'd love to know the true origin of that expression, myself.  :D

I believe that it is a twist on this (from gnu.org):

“Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech”, not as in “free beer”.

And has been corrupted. Though I would leave a definitive answer to someone else.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Edvard on January 10, 2011, 10:01 AM
Yes, that is the definition straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
I think "free beer" would be better referenced as "something of value that is given away" when speaking of software.
If you brought a six-pack of beer to your neighbor, saying "Here, I thought you might like some!", he'd most likely appreciate the gesture.
So, straight freeware would be free in that sense.
It has value, it does something useful for the user, but it doesn't cost anything.
The whole concept of "free as in free speech" as Richard Stallman envisions it has more to do with the state of mind of a programmer, researcher or hacker.
He wants to be able to learn and share what is learned with others in order to improve the computer-scientist ecosystem.
Freeware isn't free in that sense because while you're free to use it, you don't have the freedom to learn from it, improve it, or fix it's bugs if you have the ability.

$0.02
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: app103 on January 10, 2011, 10:45 AM
I believe that it is a twist on this (from gnu.org):

“Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech”, not as in “free beer”.

And has been corrupted. Though I would leave a definitive answer to someone else.

But why "free beer" and not something else like "free lunch"? The whole statement as quoted from there seems to imply (at least to me) that is is some sort of concept that would be familiar and easily understood. And I have seen it elsewhere, used quite frequently in the p2p world, going all the way back to the Napster days. So this could be an expression they borrowed rather than invented themselves.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Edvard on January 10, 2011, 10:50 AM
RMS has been working on this concept for a very long time, since the '70's if I recall correctly.
Also, "free beer" would make sense if he was in college at the time...  :-\
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Deozaan on January 10, 2011, 05:17 PM
But why "free beer" and not something else like "free lunch"?

This reminds me of another confusion about the correct interpretation of the word "free." When the movie Nacho Libre came out, my mother asked my brother (who is fluent in Spanish) what the title meant. He said that libre meant "free" and she said something like "Oh, Free Nachos?" and he had to clarify that it meant free as in freedom, not free lunch. ;D
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: sword on January 10, 2011, 05:19 PM
The expression "Free Beer" is familiar and easily understood if you are old enough. It was used as a gag/joke in early silent movies. It was shown on a sign or billboard outside a theater or meeting place where unsuspecting 'patrons' could be lured in and would have to endure some political speech, propaganda or truly awful performance.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: f0dder on January 10, 2011, 05:37 PM
/me likes the word "gratis" - and things that are.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 10, 2011, 07:05 PM
Gratis is an excellent word.

40hz also likes the phrase "For all mankind." and its more ancestral cousin "pro bono publico."

Pro bono publico (usually shortened to pro bono) is a phrase derived from Latin meaning "for the public good". The term is generally used to describe professional work undertaken voluntarily and without payment as a public service. It is common in the legal profession and is increasingly seen in marketing, technology, and strategy consulting firms.

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 10, 2011, 08:10 PM
This is an area where English is simply deficient and Chinese excels. Where a single pronunciation and spelling in English is ambiguous, Chinese characters differ and make the exact meaning clear. We really need to be verbose at times in English in order to not send the wrong message.

e.g. "I am free."

Is that:

* Not a slave
* Have spare time
* Are offering services for no money
* Have freedom to do anything
* Something else?

The "free" software thing is just muddy, and largely in part (I believe) because the vested financial interests for people come to the forefront.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 10, 2011, 08:58 PM
Ambrose Bierce summed it up best in his book The Devil's Dictionary, first published in 1911.

FREEDOM, n.

1. Exemption from the stress of authority in a beggarly half dozen of restraint's infinite multitude of methods.
2. A political condition that every nation supposes itself to enjoy in virtual monopoly. (see: liberty).

The distinction between freedom and liberty is not accurately known; naturalists have never been able to find a living specimen of either.


In many respects, not much has changed since then.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 10, 2011, 09:04 PM
+1 for Ambrose Bierce

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Dormouse on January 10, 2011, 09:28 PM
This is an area where English is simply deficient and Chinese excels. Where a single pronunciation and spelling in English is ambiguous, Chinese characters differ and make the exact meaning clear. We really need to be verbose at times in English in order to not send the wrong message.

 :huh: :huh: :huh:

You then go on to give some examples that clarify the meaning rather than using the word "free".

As a constantly evolving and highly flexible language(s), English gives a vast range of options to its speakers. Ranging from words that define meaning precisely, to usages rich in allusion or insinuation, to usages (frequently colloquial) that almost seems designed to allow the maximum range of meanings to be eked from limited vocabularies. Precise meaning can come from the individual word or word groups or can arise from the context.

The whole "free" thing arises from people enjoying the word play the word 'free' offers.

Admittedly, it also seems to have been deliberately misused in this thread to imply things that were never meant. "Free market" and "free speech" are usages where the meaning is defined in the specific word pair rather than the word 'free'  as an adjective. Just as there is a misuse of the concept of 0 in an equation. Simply people having fun, I assumed.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 10, 2011, 10:36 PM
You then go on to give some examples that clarify the meaning rather than using the word "free".

That's exactly what I mean --- unless you want to simply become overly verbose in English, you end up with lots of ambiguity. In normal discourse, there's no reason to assume that degree of verbosity. Hence, situations like this where confusion or red herrings arise.

The real pain is that it's not socially acceptable to be so verbose. People get angry or leave or tune out. You end up coming across as condescending (or as a "know it all" or something like that) without intending to.

Here's a fun example in Korean with the Chinese characters behind the words (reference (http://endic.naver.com/search.nhn?isOnlyViewEE=N&query=%EC%82%AC%EC%A0%95)):

?? (??) - Means "reason" or "circumstance"
?? (??) - Same pronunciation but different Chinese - means "ejaculation"

In the spoken form, there's the possibility of confusion, while in the (academic) written form, there isn't, though there is the possibility in the common written form which generally leaves out the Chinese.


EDIT:
Looks like there's a bug somewhere as the text broke.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Deozaan on January 10, 2011, 11:05 PM
This is an area where English is simply deficient and Chinese excels. Where a single pronunciation and spelling in English is ambiguous, Chinese characters differ and make the exact meaning clear.

I could bring up the fact that with the digital age many Chinese don't even know how to spell the words they use every day because there are so many thousands of characters to memorize.

Then you could bring up the fact that even with only 26 characters in the English alphabet, many who speak English can't spell the words they use every day.

That's when I'd point at that at least they can spell it phonetically so you can understand what they mean even if they don't have the correct spelling. As I understand it, there's no such thing as phonetics in written Chinese. Using the wrong character gives you a completely different word with an entirely different meaning.

The weaknesses cited from the ambiguity of English and the inflexibility of Chinese are some examples that make me love the idea behind Esperanto (even though I probably know slightly more about Esperanto than I do about Chinese, which is to say, not much). I don't think Esperanto is perfect, but I'd say it's probably the most perfect language on Earth today. :)

But I think we're straying quite a bit off topic now.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Edvard on January 11, 2011, 12:29 AM
Yeah, but I think we've already heard from many folks whether they're ready to switch or not.
Most not...
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: zridling on January 11, 2011, 05:34 AM
Whether you're ever going to use Linux or not, it's informative to read and understand what Free Software is about by Richard Stallman: "Asking about the practical advantages of free software is like asking about the practical advantages of not being handcuffed." Even if you think the guy is nuts, you should fully understand his arguments for free software.

The Advantages
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Free Software Philosophy
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

Why Software Should Not Have Owners
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Deozaan on January 11, 2011, 10:41 AM
Richard Stallman is a total geek! He lists the four requirements of free software by starting with 0 and going to 3.

By the way, Zaine, did you mean to have two of those links go to the same place? Seems like perhaps you pasted the wrong Advantages URL.
Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: 40hz on January 11, 2011, 12:47 PM
Stallman is a total geek. And a bit curmudgeonly at times.

But two other things he has also been since day one (or zero?) is: impeccably honest; and logically consistent in all his opinions, arguments, and actions.

This is a guy with enough brains and world-class technical skill to have easily made a very large fortune a dozen times over, had he so decided. Instead, he's given his entire life and talents (literally) to the movement he created.

Some people argue for "free as in speech." Stallman lives for it.

Gotta admire integrity like that regardless of which side of the "free" debate you come down on.

Title: Re: Are You Ready to Switch to GNU/Linux?
Post by: Renegade on January 11, 2011, 02:39 PM
+1 for Stallman being a geek.

And +1 for his integrity.

As I make a living off of software, there's no way I can possibly go along with him 100%, but his position has a place, and is very much needed. The world is a better place for having him.