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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: Stoic Joker on June 06, 2009, 12:06 PM
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Florida where I live is called (but is actually 3rd) the lightning capitol of the world. That being said we took a damn near direct hit about an hour ago ... My wife's treadmill is fried. I had to reconfigure the BIOS on my $2,000 main comp to redefine the RAID array to get it to boot. However it did boot. The battery backup took the brunt of the hit and still survived.
My $4,000 Server is also still running just fine ... Its battery backup however is fried. I can afford (sort of) a new battery backup ... but there is no way in hell I could replace the server right now.
Mind you it is not my intention to brag about the cost/value of my equipment, I'm sure a lot of folks here understand the need to invest in ones career ... and have even better stuff. I'm simply trying to show "the numbers" payoff for an investment I made years ago in making sure that surge protection was taken seriously.
If you've ever thought of buying a battery backup some day, make it today. It is worth it.
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The battery backup took the brunt of the hit and still survived.
I would still be cautious about trusting this one too much. There is a good chance that while it didn't fry, the protection and filtering circuit that took the hit has been weakened. And you may not be as lucky on even a smaller storm. I had one one that protected my system. But then afterward I started hearing it beep and switch over for short times (few seconds at a time) for what seemed to be no reason. Sunny days without a cloud in the sky. It started seeing and reacting to the transients in the AC that it had been filtering out before. There are devices that can monitor and provide counts of AC transients on the line. It is amazing on the number that can occur over time and how high they can be. They are only milliseconds in duration but do weaken power supplies, UPS and other sensitive devices.
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The battery backup took the brunt of the hit and still survived.
I would still be cautious about trusting this one too much. There is a good chance that while it didn't fry, the protection and filtering circuit that took the hit has been weakened.-bob99
True, I'll be keeping an eye on it for a while but it seems to checkout ok for now. The toasted one on the server however has adopted much the same behavior you described (battery went to Zero & it beeps occasionally). Sure it'll power up...but it's a gonner. (Crack-the-whip effect: Last device on the circuit takes the biggest "hit")
Interesting side note: The server's battery backup is plugged into one of those cheap-O "Surge Strips" ... The breaker in the strip never tripped.
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The toasted one on the server however has adopted much the same behavior you described (battery went to Zero & it beeps occasionally). Sure it'll power up...but it's a gonner.
On mine even the battery still worked fine. It just stared kicking in/out more frequently. I went to a seminar once, by coincidence hosted by a mfg located in FL, that discussed lightning versus AC powere transients. One of the things that came out of it was constant power transients can be just as damaging as a lightning event. I've seen it on equipment I provide. In some areas even where they haven't had any recent storms they still lose equipment due to the transients.
Interesting side note: The server's battery backup is plugged into one of those cheap-O "Surge Strips" ... The breaker in the strip never tripped.
This was one of the things that was brought up during the seminar. The type of protection circuit in the strips is also weakened over time with hits as well as transients. And over time the protection portion of the strip just won't do anything anymore. People think if the light on the strip is working so is the protection. Not the case. All they have is a power strip and false sense of security/protection. Sounds like what may have happened in your case. It went straight through the strip and into the battery back-up.
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What is this protection and filtering? Where are the numbers for this?
Noted was how properly sized protectors fail - they degrade. Any protector damaged by a surge provided no protection, violated absolute maximum specs from the manufacturer, and is how to get the naive to buy more such protectors at exaggerated costs.
Effective protection means you never even knew the surge existed. Still some believe these outright lies that a protector will somehow stop what three miles of sky could not. That a few hundred joules in a power strip will absorb surges of hundreds of thousands of joules. Some are so easily lied to as to believe protectors are sacrificial devices.
Any informed resident in FL knows what is essential for and what provides surge protection:
http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/ufer.jpg
Either a surge is harmlessly absorbed before entering the building. Or it will find paths to earth destructively through an appliance. The scam is to grossly undersize a protector so that its failure light reports failure. That gets the naïve to recommend more of them. Then claim that magic box will block what three miles of sky could not stop. Nothing stops a surge. And surge damage is routinely averted by techniques well proven even 100 years ago. Effective protection means a protector earths a direct lightning strike, the surge does not enter the building, and the protector remains functional.
That surge hit the server and UPS simultaneously and equally. Protection already exists inside all electronics (ie that server). But a surge too small to overwhem protection in the server easily destroyed a grossly undersized UPS protector circuit. No problem. If that UPS is purchased using myths, then the damage gets the naive to buy more ineffective protectors. Effectively earthed protector is even necessary to protect UPSes that have virtually zero protection. Enough to claim a subjective 'surge protection' in color glossy sales brochures. But virtually zero protection.
If honest in that seminar, far more important than a summary conclusions were numbers and what those numbers represent. If selling a scam on junk science, then numberrs are not provided - just like the zero protection inside that battery backup device. If they did not provide numbers, then what scam was being promoted? Those who want to be scammed even think filtering will stop what three miles of sky could not – set themselves up to be scammed.
So what were they selling in that seminar?
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Any informed resident in FL knows what is essential for and what provides surge protection:
http://members.aol.com/gfretwell/ufer.jpg
-westom
Did you check that link before you posted it? AOL shut down member pages in October 2008 and deleted the contents of all accounts. Your link has been dead for the last 9 months and won't be coming back.
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Here's a couple of links on surge and transient.
http://www.cvel.clemson.edu/emc/tutorials/Transient_Protection/t-protect.html
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1155237,00.asp
Both are from the links at the bottom of the page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protection
My only point is that protection devices can weaken and not be as effective and some you won't know if they are still working.
It is good to be careful and make sure whatever you are using is in working order.
Even then, mother nature can still prevail. :)
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Interesting side note: The server's battery backup is plugged into one of those cheap-O "Surge Strips" ... The breaker in the strip never tripped.
-Stoic Joker
I'm not an electronics expert but someone technically adept in electronics told me never to plug one surge protecting device into another. According to this dude, it's worse than having no surge protection at all. Some mumbo jumbo about wave forms or something. Just thought I'd pass it on. Maybe a search(not surge) will turn up the technical info if he was right.
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Maybe a search(not surge) will turn up the technical info if he was right.-MilesAhead
Just make sure that information is current!
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Maybe a search(not surge) will turn up the technical info if he was right.-MilesAhead
Just make sure that information is current!
-cranioscopical
I can see you just couldn't resist that pun!! :)
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My only point is that protection devices can weaken and not be as effective and some you won't know if they are still working.-bob99
That point is accurate when we add a few facts. For example, that is true for one type of protector component - MOVs. And then we add other facts (the numbers). When properly sized, MOV degradation becomes insignificant.
Meanwhile, at least one of your citations makes the important point.
> Transient protection devices attempt to re-direct the energy
Diverting surges - not stopping or sacrificing itself - is what protectors do. But a protector that has nothing to divert energy into may divert that surge energy destructively through the adjacent appliance.
Why are every FL telco switching computers, connected on overhead wires all over town, not damaged? Is everyone in the OP’s town without phone service for four days? Of course not. Telcos do what every FL homeowner does to not have surge damage. Telcos connect every protector short to earth ground. For a homeowner, short would mean 'less than 10 feet'. Surges diverted to earth need not find earth ground destructively inside the building.
Returning to the OP’s post. OP’s battery backup provided no protection. A surge was too small to overwhelm protection in that server and numerous other household devices. Surge too small to harm most appliances converted a battery backup into a victim. Internal appliance protection is not overwhelmed if a surge is earthed before entering the building.
What does a protector do?
> Transient protection devices attempt to re-direct the energy
which is why effective protectors are located where utility wires enter the building AND make that short connection to earth ground. Earth – where surge energy is harmlessly dissipated. Earthing is what telcos have been doing for over 100 years to have no damage. OP’s surge was not earthed; was permitted destructively inside the building.
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Okay guys that's enough punishment ;)
@MilesAhead - While that is true, it only applies to daisy chaining two UPSs (Uninterruptible Power Supplies). I was using only one UPS and a cheap-O Surge-Strip which can't conflict with anything. The strip is used only due to cord length issues...I know they don't actually work.
@bob99 - While I agree with the power transients/fluctuations being damaging to sensitive electronics, I'll have to call BS on their effect on a Surge-Strip. The breaker in a SS uses a bimetal bar that flexes and breaks the circuit when heated by a sufficient rise in the current flow. This incidentally is also their inherent weakness. Their function assumes that there will be a sufficiently sized rapid "spike", which is frequently not the case. a low or slow building rise in current is typically not enough to trip the silly things ... but never the less very bad for the device it's "protecting".
How many times can the bimetal strip handle being heated? Thousands. (I'm guessing you want an example, okay...) The turn signal flasher in an automobile has used the same bimetal heat/flex technology to operate for roughly 100 years. The click click noise the turn signals make is the bimetal "breaker" doing a pop/reset over & over & over. Sure they do go bad after 4, 5, 7 years...but that's after flashing how many times?
The problem isn't that the strip won't last; it's that it didn't really work in the first place. ;)
@weston – Good god man, what the hell are you on about. When the TV goes blank and the lights go out for a three block radius as energy builds up before the discharge, you notice. When there is a blinding flash in the front yard just outside the window one is sitting next to, you notice. When the lights in every room of a building go dim (or out) just before they get really bright, you notice. A surge that isn’t noticed isn’t a surge, it’s a voltage fluctuation.
Lightning (actually) strikes from the ground up, the brilliant flash of light seen coming from the sky is just an arc tracing the (approximate) path of where it happened (note the past tense). If lightning hits a building “directly” the building is already grounded, by virtue of being on the ground. Sure, having the wiring properly ground helps, but it’s not a cure-all for a damn thing. The part of the strike that goes through the electrical system is inductively transferred ambient discharge. How “direct” the path is only makes a difference on whether you have a fried appliance, or a burnt wall.
Electricity seeks the path of least resistance, the trick is to not to be the path. I don’t care if the machine is unplugged and sitting in the middle of the room, a truly direct hit will still render it dead because of the ambient discharge that passes through it. ESD 101 30,000v for visible arc (when "Zapping" your sister...), 3v to toast a circuit board.
I started the thread by stating (rather clearly) that it was damn near (but hence not) a direct hit. But never the less close enough to have a rather noticeable impact. That impact can be mitigated by a UPS, I’ve seen them make a difference too many times to doubt. I’ve seen it hit an office building one suite had a UPS on their server, and one did not. …Only one of them had to replace their server. Our office (a steal building) was hit a few years back, the T1 equipment (which someone plugged it incorrectly) got fried, the servers (all on UPSs) are all still with us. Etc..
Oh, and FL Telco's run most of their wiring underground.
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Below are a couple of excerpts from the following site.
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/programs/gen_saf/Surge_unit_info.htm
"The MOV is the heart of surge suppressors. The role of the MOV is to divert surge current. However, MOVs wear out with use. As more surges are diverted, the MOVs life span shortens, and failure becomes imminent."
There is no forewarning or visual indications given - just failure. And while failing, they can reach very high temperatures, and actually start fires."
Most surge protectors will continue to function as a power strip, even though the surge trap mechanism may have been destroyed by the power spike. This presents two possible dangers:"
My only point is that protection devices can weaken and not be as effective and some (edited to) sometimes you won't know if they are still working (edited to add) properly.
It is good to be careful and make sure whatever you are using is in working order.
@Stoic Joker - Your subject topic is a good recommendation.
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@bob99 - We're on the same page man, just different paragraphs... You're talking about a proper surge device that actually has power conditioning circuitry. I'm talking about one of those Cheap-O power strips (that most end users seem to end up with) that only has a breaker in it. Like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812120802
...Those don't do squat, unless you're trying to "protect" something with all the electrical sensitivity of a space heater.
You're talking about something more like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812107131
Correct?
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"The MOV is the heart of surge suppressors. The role of the MOV is to divert surge current. However, MOVs wear out with use. As more surges are diverted, the MOVs life span shortens, and failure becomes imminent."-bob99
All quite true. And then we add facts. A protector designer views numbers. Then designs so that degradation becomes irrelevant. As noted, what a protector must never do. Fail. Fail so that its thermal fuse trips and the light indicates failure. That failure light only reports one type of failure ... that must never happen. See scary pictures for further problems.
Failed surge protectors will continue to operate as a power strip because nothing exists between the surge and appliance. Surge confronts appliance and protector equally. A surge too small to overwhelm protection in the computer can still overwhelm the surge protector. Making it woefully too small gets the naive to promote myths and sales. "My surge protector scarified itself to save my computer." Reality: protection inside the appliance protected itself. A failing protector gets the naive to recommend a grossly overpriced and woefully ineffective protector.
Effective protection means nobody even knew the surge existed. Protectors did not fail. Your telco switching computer (CO) suffer maybe 100 surges during every thunderstorm. How often has your entire town been without phone service for four days while they replace that computer? Surge protection from direct lightning is that routine when using protector that actually connect to protection. No power strip protector even claims such protection. But again. Read the manufacturer datasheet. Where does it list each type of surge and protection from that surge? It does not even claim protection. So why do some here *know* a protector is protection? Word association. "Protector" sounds like "protection". Therefore it must be protection.
Grossly undersizing the protector means no effective protection. It also means these scary pictures:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339
Norma on 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage" also describes the danger of power strip protectors:
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable
> man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire.
> The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks
> and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.
That same protector may be on a pile of desktop papers, or behind furniture on the rug? That same protector circuit is in the OP's solution. What did it do? A surge too small to harm the computer AND also 100 other 'unprotected' appliance somehow harmed the battery backup? Of course. What protected the dishwasher? Instead, that unacceptable failure got to OP to recommend it without first learning how the technology works.
Every telco CO suffers 100 surges during every thunderstorm - without damage. They use something far less expensive AND that remains functional every after direct lightning strikes. OP is invited (repeatedly) to post those specs that claim his protector provides protection. He will not because he cannot. No such protection specs exist. His own example demonstrates a completely ineffective protector. And still he recommend that grossly undersized protector using speculation – without first learning what happened. A surge much too small to harm that computer easily destroyed the protector. The protector did what its numeric specifications said it would do – fail.
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I started the thread by stating (rather clearly) that it was damn near (but hence not) a direct hit. But never the less close enough to have a rather noticeable impact. -Stoic Joker
You are assuming it was only a nearby hit. However once we trace the surge path, nearby hits are discovered to be direct hits. For example, a nearby strike to utility wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to your household appliances.
A nearby hit was only 50 feet from a 100 foot long antenna. That induced thousands of volts on that antenna. So we installed an NE-2 neon glow lamp on the antenna lead. That lamp conducted milliamps of current causing thousands of volts to drop to ten. Induced surges are that trivial. A milliamp neon glow lamp is even used as a surge protector because induced surges are myths - only create damage when the electronics has no protection. All appliances contain protection that makes induced surges irrelevant. Only direct strikes cause the damage you saw. But then which one of us actually did this stuff?
Lightning strikes a lightning rod. A direct strike. Lighting traveled to earth on a wire only four feet away from a PC. That 20000 amps created electromagnetic fields only feet outside the building. And the computer did not crash. Did not even flicker. Why? Those induced surges get promoted using junk science. Those induced surges are subjective myths. Those induced surges are so trivial as to be earthed even by an NE-2 neon glow lamp. What you had was a direct strike and protection so inferior as to suffer damage.
There is a difference between us. I learned this stuff by doing it. And thinking like an engineer. You saw something. Observation alone was sufficient to make a conclusion? No. Observation without first learning how this stuff works creates junk science. Your conclusions based only on observation are classic junk science. Myths the manufacturer needs so that you will promote his ineffective products. Where is that numeric spec that claims protection? You could not provide it for very good reason. So you made a junk science conclusion.
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@Stoic Joker - Good way to say it... different paragraph.
I was trying to point out that over time, internally, a more expensive surge unit can turn into the less expensive unit (plain power strip) without knowing it.
Most surge protectors will continue to function as a power strip, even though the surge trap mechanism may have been destroyed by the power spike.
There is no forewarning or visual indications given - just failure.
Although there are units, typically the higher quality ones, that have a type of indicator of how the protection circuit is functioning. Some that have a separate indicator, one unit I read about says:
"* NOTE REGARDING SURGE PROTECTORS: The surge protector power switch is typically illuminated with a red light that should be on when the surge protector is operational. If the light is off but the power is on, that is an indicator that the "surge protection functionality" of the unit is NOT FUNCTIONAL and should be replaced."
Since all AC power is subject to surges, doesn't have to be lightning, and suppressors are working 24/7 it is a good idea for anyone using a surge strip to check and see if theirs provides any type of indication like this. And not get lulled into a false sense of security just because the strip is there.
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Although there are units, typically the higher quality ones, that have a type of indicator of how the protection circuit is functioning. Some that have a separate indicator, ...-bob99
So how did we design that? Normal failure mode for MOVs is degrading. Nothing inside a protector can report that 10% voltage change. Don’t agree? Then tell us how degradation is measured?
Another failure is catastrophic. MOV manufacturers say that failure is not acceptable anywhere. It occurs when a surge is so large as to vaporize the MOV. LED can only report that failure mode. If a surge as so large as to be indicated by the light, the protector was grossly undersized – even a fire threat [see scary pictures].
Meanwhile, a degraded protector (an acceptable failure mode) will never report that failure on its light. So manufacturers simply forgets to mention what that light really reports. Others will fill in the blanks with myths and half truths.
View this picture. MOVs are completely removed from the protector and the light still says it is good. Just another example of what that light will not report in better protectors:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
If AC is so full of other destructive surges, then we are all trooping to the hardware store daily to replace dimmer switches, GFCIs, and clock radios? What protects the dishwasher? Have you replaced that dimmer switch today? Reality: all appliances – even dimmer switches - contain internal protection that makes trivial surges irrelevant. Those other surges are myths promoted by the naive. If those surges exist, then you are replacing electronics in the furnace how many times a day?
Install one effective surge protector to make lightning irrelevant. That same solution (for about $1 per protected appliance) makes minor surges irrelevant. If those power strip or battery backup protectors really did anything, then every poster in every reply has quoted those specs. Nobody has because no manufacturer claims that protection. And so the unsubstantiated myths and half truths (ie other surges) are posted even without citation – even without any numbers. No numbers is the characteristic of junk science reasoning.
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Just another reason why COs everywhere in the world routinely suffer 100 surges during every thunderstorm – and no damage must ever occur. Telcos spend tens or 100 times less money to have real world protection. That means wasting no money on ineffective plug-in solutions – when even the indicator LED deceives. Those plug-in protectors are classic examples of lulling into a false sense of security. Where does it even claim to provide protection? No one has yet to post those spec numbers - for good reason.
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I started the thread by stating (rather clearly) that it was damn near (but hence not) a direct hit. But never the less close enough to have a rather noticeable impact. -Stoic Joker
You are assuming it was only a nearby hit. However once we trace the surge path, nearby hits are discovered to be direct hits. For example, a nearby strike to utility wires down the street is a direct lightning strike to your household appliances.-westom
(Um…) Not even close. A nearby utility pole strike is discharged through all routes to ground (e.g. houses on the block). Being spread out lessens its impact on any one individual dwelling. Not to mention that that path routes most (but not all) of the surge current through the main system ground (which you are so fond of) … Which indeed does lessen its impact on internal devices. If however the strike hits (a tree towards the back of the house (opposite the service entry point) the system is effectively back fed which puts a rather different spin on the proverbial “ball”. The appliances now become the closer alternate routes to ground on its way to the half inch rod pounded into the soil next to the meter box.
So… just for the “record”, you are stating unequivocally that any type of surge suppression, power conditioning, battery backup is pointless, foolish and dangerous. Because all you really need is a properly grounded system, Correct?
Being that I’ve actually had occasion to tour the local Telco, and seen their array of power conditioning equipment, I find it odd that they would waste all that money and space on something that could have simply been handled by a ground wire. Not to mention all of the fabric switching and redundant systems that prevents outages from being major.
Frankly you are assuming far too much about my background. While my work experience has always been technical in nature I hate engineers. Their inability to discern theory from practice constantly causes them to sit there pontificating on what should have happened (under laboratory conditions) instead of taking into account what really did happen.
I’ve lived in Florida for 42 years, and in said time period have a great deal of firsthand experience regarding lightning and its effects of one’s surroundings. Unlike most tourists, I do not leave a streak of shit in mid air on the way to the ceiling every time there is a thunder clap.
Why you keep vacillating between your favorite pet theory and a numbers game is frankly beyond me. The only numbers that are relevant (in the very fine print) are the ones that state that any of the $X,000 protection “warranties” don’t apply in the state of Florida (Including mine which was an APC Back-UPS XS1500). This is simply because the odds of it hitting you directly are far too high for the suites to swallow (This is what “They” refer to as “Just Business”). Unlike (let’s say) Michigan which typically gets four strikes a year for the whole state. I lived there once for 6 months during their “rainy season” …cripes what a boring bunch of storms. I had to come back to Florida for sanity sake as I actually missed the lightning.
My only point is simply this; a good quality UPS is just as effective as airbags in a car are.
If you hit a tree at 10mph they are a pointless nuisance & expensive to repack (I’m giving you that one…)
If you hit the same tree at 60mph … Well now there is a damn good chance that they will save your life (the point I’ve been driving at…)
If you hit the tree at 100mph … The undertaker’s job may be a tad easier…but you is still dead. (Which is the outside extreme that you seem to keep driving at?)
@bob99 – I’m with ya man, I just hadn’t expected to be dragged into a theoretical pissing contest while trying to share the events of my day with the crew.
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for these electrifying insights but the direction in which we're heading could soon become shocking.
Allow me to provide a receptacle for this debate. [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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@Stoic - I opened the door with my reply to your initial post - sorry :wallbash:.
I've dealt with theory vs. practical people over the years also.
Both are needed and the good ones I've worked with have a grasp on both ends of the rope.
While looking around for info on, let's change the term to power disturbances, I found this site.
http://www.fpl.com/largebusiness/electric/power_quality/contents/powerful_solutions_for_business.shtml
Ironically it's your own FPL.
Some good info. I like the FAQ's, FPL Lingo, etc. toward the bottom of the page. If surges, sags, spikes and the like didn't exist why would they be discussing them, what they affect and methods of prevention? A rhetorical ques. ;)
Found another one on Pacific Gas & Electric's site but can't get just the link to copy. It is to a pdf on their site. If anyone is interested:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geusJsFCxKS4kAKQtXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTBybjFrcjVnBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw--/SIG=13kspvf9k/EXP=1244489196/**http%3a//www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/about/news/outagestatus/powerquality/avoid_pwr_disturb.pdf
There's also some good info on some of the different manufacturers and consultants web sites. Don't want to post them for fear of being considered a spammer.
Google or Yahoo 'power quality disturbances' and take your pick.
All done for me. (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/siema.gif)
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In Holland any electrical installation you can think of has to be grounded...by law. Insurance companies don't even pay if your house burns down because of an electrical failure if no proper grounding is in place.
Thunderstorms that form over land have trouble passing over a (significantly) large body of water. When I was living in Holland I leaved in an area with tall trees and three churches (300 meter radius) and next to a channel used as an international shipping lane. Although we didn't have that much storms, the ones that were there stayed for a long time (before those were able to pass over the body of water.
What I can tell you is the it is very impressive to see a church tower getting hit by lightning. One of the church towers was only 40 meters from my house. I cannot remember having any problem in any electrical equipment caused by lightning. And never used devices as UPS.
Now I have to say that electrical installations have circuit breakers that react when too much power goes through them, when they are used for prolonged periods at (near) max capacity and also when the "level" of the ground alters (for example: when you are making a short circuit, but also if the voltage level of the iron pole in the ground changes). The last trick is done with magnetism and works faster than any UPS, MOV or Protector without degrading. These breakers are expensive, will set you back 100 US dollar for a single line that carries 240 Volt and a max of 16 Amp. A house that is fitting for a standard size family in Holland has to have 5 of those (safety regulations).
Don't know if that kind of breakers are available and/or used in the US.
There is quite some interesting material on the subject of grounding electrical installations from all different types and sizes. And they require quite some mathematical knowledge as well.
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Both are needed and the good ones I've worked with have a grasp on both ends of the rope.
Shouldn't have said this... my apologies!
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A nearby utility pole strike is discharged through all routes to ground (e.g. houses on the block). Being spread out lessens its impact on any one individual dwelling. … If however the strike hits (a tree towards the back of the house (opposite the service entry point) the system is effectively back fed which puts a rather different spin on the proverbial ball.-Stoic Joker
Exactly. Slowly we are working towards reality. Apparently you don’t realize the ground rod must be the single point earth ground. Again, you are too quick to challenge rather than learn the significance of what you have just posted. Failure to install the single point earthing means a struck tree is also a direct connection to household appliances if the building earthing is performed incorrectly.
So why would you have damage? Follow the current from cloud to earth. Down to the tree, through earth, up the ground rod, into the building through appliances, out the other side of the building via improper earthing, then miles to those distant charges. That is why homes are routinely built or upgraded with Ufer grounds or equivalent.
Same problem was in the Orange County emergency facilities. So they installed no plug-in protectors. Instead they fixed the problem:
www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm
Why did you have damage? According to your own words, defective earthing. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. And yours apparently sucks.
Yes, direct strikes to AC mains are distributed to all homes – as IEEE papers discussed. So a 50,000 amp surge is distributed to all homes – 12,000 amps? Or, some homes take the brunt of that surge. Which direction will currents go to find those earthborne charges? Reality – a direct strike to AC mains is a current that seeks earth ground even through household appliances. Induced surges are not destructive. Damage is when the surge current is not properly earthed – conducts destructively through appliances.
Contrary to what you imply – it is routine to have direct lightning strikes to the utility wires or that tree – and no damage. But it requires a human to first learn the concept. No foolishly buy plug-in solution that do not even claim such protection. In your case, the computer saved itself. The battery backup was so pathetic as to be damaged by a trivial surge.
Moving on, you are confusing big with effective. All that AC mains conditioning equipment has little involvement with surges. It mostly addresses other problems including harmonics, brownouts, blackouts, and noise.
Did you view the chambers where every wire entering the building is first earthed (as short as possible) to single point earth ground? Then you never saw nor learned about surge protection. You never learned what has been standard surge protection for over 100 years. That is my point. We know how surge protection works for over 100 years. That battery backup violates those principles as well as not even claim such protection. Why would you recommend something when the manufacturer will not even make that claim?
Many only believe the first thing a told by a retail store salesman. You have described the reason for surge damage: your earthing is defective. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground – which is why that telco CO has massive earthing.
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Both are needed and the good ones I've worked with have a grasp on both ends of the rope.
Shouldn't have said this... my apologies!
-bob99
It's all good man... ;)
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In Holland any electrical installation you can think of has to be grounded...by law. Insurance companies don't even pay if your house burns down because of an electrical failure if no proper grounding is in place. -Shades
Earthing has long been required everywhere. However surge protection in the US required earthing that both meets and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code requirements. A date that suggests how many homes still have woefully insufficient earthing.
An example. One FL couple had lightning repeatedly strike an outside bathroom wall. They installed lightning rods. Lightning again struck that bathroom wall. Why? Lightning rods were only earthed in sand with 8 foot (3 meter) ground rods. Bathroom plumbing made a better connection to deeper limestone. Lightning avoided ightning rods to obtain a better connection to earth.
For surge protection, earthing also must be single point (as demonstrated why in a previous post). Ufer grounding or equivalent is routine in FL due to poorer conductive sand and the higher frequency of surges. And then all incoming utilities are earthed short, no sharp bends, etc to that single point earth ground. If the cable enters from the other side, then the house has been setup to have surge damage.
Circuit breakers never stop damage. A circuit breaker's function is to disconnect power after something has failed. Protection of human life from fire created by already existing damage.
Now put numbers to it. A circuit breaker takes tens of milliseconds to respond. A surge is done in microseconds. 300 hundred consecutive surges could exist and the circuit breaker still never trips.
A circuit breaker would stop or block what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Never happens. That damning fact defines the difference between effective protection (ie a 'whole house' protetor or why nothing inside the church was damaged) verses a protector that magically absorbs surges. The one factor that defines even how good a protector is – earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
This is not popular in retail stores where such protectors (and earthing) are not sold.
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@westom:
After taking a look you were more or less right about reaction times, however I found a schematic (http://translate.google.com.py/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.et-installateur.nl%2Fvaktechniek%2Fwerkingaardlek.html&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) (near the bottom of the page) which explains better what I meant. The page I link to is translated by Google, the original is in Dutch.
If you don't want to read, the best reaction time is 1.2 µsec, which is a lot faster than the values you suggest. Then again, in that region of Holland there were only two ways you were without electrical power:
1 - because of your own stupidity (creating a short)
2 - failing/forget to pay the bill
The electrical grid over there is great and is one I sure miss here in Paraguay (where the grid still uses 110 volt and people stare at you sheepishly when talking about grounding and 'noise-free' power without fluctuations).
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After taking a look you were more or less right about reaction times, however I found a schematic (http://translate.google.com.py/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.et-installateur.nl%2Fvaktechniek%2Fwerkingaardlek.html&sl=nl&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) (near the bottom of the page) which explains better what I meant. ... the best reaction time is 1.2 µsec -Shades
Your citation is more commonly known as a GFCI or RCB. If the outgoing current does not match the incoming current, then the breaker assumes a human is being shocked – and cuts off power.
Will a switch stop a surge? Of course not. Surges are currents whose voltage increase, as necessary, to blow through any blocking device. Why do surges find no problem conducting through 3 miles of the most non-conductive material – air?
Furthermore, switches always take milliseconds. Even fast blow fuses take milliseconds.
To do 1.2 usec, the power must be controlled by semiconductors. That means the blocking ability is even less.
Appreciate what it is blocking? A constant voltage of 240 VAC. Surge voltages typically go to 6000 volts when something tries to stop the surge. Your source says the electronic device must withstand 6000 to 8000 volts. That is not stop it. That is survive a current pulse that, if stopped, could generate those voltages. The standard solution – to not block those currents so that a massive voltage is not created. Not block as in let the surge go where it wants to. Don’t try to do any surge protection.
GFCIs, et al have become standard in the industrial world since first demonstrated in the 1960s.
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A nearby utility pole strike is discharged through all routes to ground (e.g. houses on the block). Being spread out lessens its impact on any one individual dwelling. … If however the strike hits (a tree towards the back of the house (opposite the service entry point) the system is effectively back fed which puts a rather different spin on the proverbial ball.-Stoic Joker
Exactly. Slowly we are working towards reality. Apparently you don’t realize the ground rod must be the single point earth ground. Again, you are too quick to challenge rather than learn the significance of what you have just posted. Failure to install the single point earthing means a struck tree is also a direct connection to household appliances if the building earthing is performed incorrectly.
So why would you have damage? Follow the current from cloud to earth. Down to the tree, through earth, up the ground rod, into the building through appliances, out the other side of the building via improper earthing, then miles to those distant charges. That is why homes are routinely built or upgraded with Ufer grounds or equivalent.-westom
You can’t have it both ways… You are saying the a strike (which in your world is a single focused point) hit a (soaking wet) pine tree (which has a 30-40 foot tap root), but decided to completely ignore its already being deep underground and decided to come back up through a ground rod which is on the (lengthwise) opposite end of the house (next to the supply line) … and exists for the sole purpose of directing surges downward?
You insist on assuming I’m sitting on a sandy “bad ground” but given the prevalence of lime rock mines in the area that’s not actually so much the case. Not to mention that being a fan of Power-Line networking, which is dependent on a good system ground I’ve taken the time to go over (e.g. reseat & tighten) all of the grounds in the panel for the purpose of creating a good performance baseline when testing equipment (which is part of my job). And no (before you go off on a tangent) I was not using any of that type of equipment at the time.
Moving on, you are confusing big with effective. All that AC mains conditioning equipment has little involvement with surges. It mostly addresses other problems including harmonics, brownouts, blackouts, and noise.
Hm… Strangely, that’s not what the engineer giving the tour said … but hay it’s your story.
You I gather work with antennas & communications equipment (given the nature of most of your links). In that environment any hit is always direct because you’re dealing with a 100’ tall metal stick poking out of the ground which makes for a single point of contention. Residential areas aren’t quite that neat. It’s generally more of a ground swell that culminates in two cones (one point up, one point down) meeting in the sky. Who gets how much of what becomes rather random at that point.
Once again I’ll refer to my airbag analogy in simply stating that a UPS can help.
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You can’t have it both ways. You are saying the a strike … hit a … pine tree (which has a 30-40 foot tap root), but decided to completely ignore its already being deep underground and decided to come back up through a ground rod which is on the (lengthwise) opposite end of the house … and exists for the sole purpose of directing surges downward?-Stoic Joker
Again you are making assumptions rather than read what was posted. Did you see the phrase about earthborne charges miles away? Apparently not. Without understanding the principles, then you misrepresented what was posted; did not grasp what was posted. What was posted has been understood for most of the last 100 years. There is no contradiction. But there is a reader who is having difficulty dismissing and forgetting the myths he once believed.
In one location, surge protection was properly installed. Damage occurred. Why? In earth were veins of graphite. Since earth was not monolithic, protection system (earthing) needed upgrading. They had what you have described – pockets of more conductive earth.
Tightening grounds is nice. And does little for better earthing. For example, how does the 6 AWG ground wire connect to a ground rod? Up over the foundation and down to that rod. Sufficient to meet code. And insufficient for surge protection. That ground wire must go through the foundation and down; to be shorter, no sharp bends, separated from other wires, etc.
Meanwhile a lightning strike to the tree could have also forked off into AC electric, buried power line, etc. Most all strikes leave no apparent indication. With questions, we eventually discover they had no idea where lightning struck. They assumed - then converted assumptions into fact. Same problem is repeated often in this thread.
I provided only a sample of reasons why you had damage from a struck tree. As a novice, you might finally begin to learn this stuff in highly regarded application notes from Polyphaser:
http://www.polyphaser.com/technical_notes.aspx
Warning: this may be tough reading if too attached to many erroneous myths. Too many make assumptions and therefore need to reread it more often. You see contradictions only because you have not grasp some basic concept.
From information provided, your had damage because and the solution begins with earthing. If earth has pockets of more conductive earth (lime rock mines) or if a major pipeline passes nearby, then your earthing needs additional improvements. If at the end of a AC distribution system approaching from the west, then frequency of damage would be even higher – more corrections required. How to do this is more complex. But the description of your damage is typical of bad earthing and no ‘whole house’ protection.
Most homes are still built as if transistors do not exist. Surge protection starts when footings are poured. Many supplement a weak protection system with compromises. Some foolishly think a cold water pipe entering on the other side of the basement is good earthing. Wrong – for so many reasons posted previously.
Bottom line in any facility: if damage results, then corrections start with a study of earthing.
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Enough is enough, Judging by your joined on date & first post you joined this board for the sole purpose of launching a rather highhanded & condescending attack on me. For the “crime” of sharing the events of my day with fellow members. Your imperialistic attempts at making me look stupid have only succeeded in impressing me with your arrogance.
Feel free to enjoy your “win”, as I will not be returning to this thread.
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@bob99 - We're on the same page man, just different paragraphs... You're talking about a proper surge device that actually has power conditioning circuitry. I'm talking about one of those Cheap-O power strips (that most end users seem to end up with) that only has a breaker in it.-Stoic Joker
Almost all 'cheap-o' surge suppressors I've seen, (or have), use MOVs because they're cheaper than circuit-breakers.
A typical cheap surge suppressor circuit is, (taken straight off one I just pulled apart):
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
If a sufficiently large surge gives the MOV a hard time, it will, generally, go short-circuit thereby turning on the LED and thus giving a failure indication.
If your strip has a circuit-breaker then I'd take a pretty fair guess that the circuit-breaker is there for output current overload protection. A thermal circuit-breaker is just too slow for surge suppression use.
If you open it up I'm sure you'll find a MOV is across the line to do the actual suppression.
In Australia, I believe it was regulated that all power-boards, (power-strips), have a circuit-breaker to guard against output current overload. Previously they didn't and there were some reports of fires starting by people plugging too many things into power-boards, IIRC. I'd be surprised if America didn't have a similar regulation.
Enough is enough, Judging by your joined on date & first post you joined this board for the sole purpose of launching a rather highhanded & condescending attack on me. For the “crime” of sharing the events of my day with fellow members. Your imperialistic attempts at making me look stupid have only succeeded in impressing me with your arrogance.
Feel free to enjoy your “win”, as I will not be returning to this thread.-Stoic Joker
Your reply to westom came in while I was typing away at this and I was then in two minds as to whether to continue or not. As it is, maybe someone will find my post relevant - so here it is.
EDIT: Stupid me, I got my circuit round the wrong way :-[
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Enough is enough, Judging by your joined on date & first post you joined this board for the sole purpose of launching a rather highhanded & condescending attack on me. -Stoic Joker
You have assumed attacks. I have been trying to get you to stop thinking failure is acceptable. I have been trying to explain why you had damage that was never acceptable. That the battery backup did not protect the computer – just like the manufacturer specs state. And I have been trying to get you to install what is all but required in every FL building. Required but not always installed especially in pre-1990 buildings.
I have not attacked you - ever. But I have been bluntly honest. How many engineers have provided a solution AND explained why that solution works – with numbers? You have taken information that is too new to grasp (for now). Then assumed that was an attack. No. You have a bias as entrenched as the many who just knew Saddam had WMDs. Many take personally what is only the fact when that fact contradicts what was always assumed.
Hopefully you will appreciate what has just happened here. I am trying to demonstrate why the popular myths are wrong. How protection is routinely installed to not have damage even from direct lightning strikes. You had damage. That is a completely failure of any protection you thought you had. And the effective solution costs less money. A majority routinely deny this reality, in part, because the concept is just too new - even if these principles have been well established and routine for over 100 years. Deny for the same reasons why so many *knew* Saddam had WMDs.
Notice how many posts are based in radio communication. That is where most of the original research was conducted AND where the best experience is learned that applies even to munitions dumps and homes. Either you can aggressively deny what has long been the well proven technique. Or you could ask for further clarification and assistance. Why? Because the effective solution means no damage no matter what lightning strikes. And that solution also means others lesser surges are irrelevant – do not cause damage.
Your choice.
Meanwhile, others can either learn from your denials or learn from your curiosity.
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Almost all 'cheap-o' surge suppressors I've seen, (or have), use MOVs because they're cheaper than circuit-breakers. A typical cheap surge suppressor circuit is, (taken straight off one I just pulled apart): -4wd
That circuit is incorrect. View MOV datasheets. Leakage currents are well below 1 ma. An LED requires at least 10 ma. Furthermore, 1 milliamp through an MOV is a test current for its threshold voltage - a voltage well above what should be on AC mains.
Circuit breaker does nothing for surge protection for so many reasons. CB is a device required for every power strip – with or without protector circuits. Installed only for human safety.
Thermal fuse is required so that a failing (grossly undersized) MOV does not create fire. Thermal fuse disconnects MOVs long before an MOV conducts anywhere near what might be its maximum protection. Sometimes the fuse does not work which is why most fire departments have been called for protector fires. Problems detailed in so many previous examples and in Norma’s quoted experience.
MOV is effective if it has something to divert surge energy into. That means a low impedance (ie ‘less than 3 meter’) connection to single point earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. No earth ground means a protector may divert that surge destructively inside the building – maybe destructively though some appliances.
Meanwhile your circuit is incorrect – is missing other critical connections. Your assumption is that the MOV can fail catastrophically. As repeatedly noted, that is not an acceptable failure mode. Again, read page one of every MOV datasheet.
How is the light connected? See the picture where all MOVs are removed – and the light says that protector is still good:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
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@westom:
Maybe you can shed a light on this matter for me as well (at least if you don't mind explaining). But first I should thank you for the tip of the ground line through the foundation instead of cornering around it. I know for a fact that this happens a lot on construction sites.
Ok, the question. I was always told that you will improve grounding tremendously by creating a diamond (similar as in playing cards) with grounding poles. The distance between poles should be calculated because the type of earth has an effect on the calculation as well as the angles from the diamond shape.
Is the diamond also a myth?
Oh, you would likely understand it already but I should mention that the connecting lines between the poles also are in the earth and not "switched" in the electric closet. Each house in Holland has a special closet inside the house that holds the meters for energy consumption (electricity, gas and water), circuit breakers, grouping switches and main water valve. Most of the times the land based telephone line and cable (TV/radio) are also coming into the house through that closet.
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Almost all 'cheap-o' surge suppressors I've seen, (or have), use MOVs because they're cheaper than circuit-breakers. A typical cheap surge suppressor circuit is, (taken straight off one I just pulled apart): -4wd
That circuit is incorrect. View MOV datasheets. Leakage currents are well below 1 ma. An LED requires at least 10 ma. Furthermore, 1 milliamp through an MOV is a test current for its threshold voltage - a voltage well above what should be on AC mains.-westom
Aaargh! You're right, next time I'll grab some glasses - corrected circuit:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Circuit breaker does nothing for surge protection for so many reasons. CB is a device required for every power strip – with or without protector circuits. Installed only for human safety.
ummm, yes - as I stated.
Your assumption is that the MOV can fail catastrophically. As repeatedly noted, that is not an acceptable failure mode.
No offence but while it may not be an acceptable failure mode, it is a fact of life. Everything is subject to catastrophic failure no matter how well engineered or designed it is. The fact that something hasn't failed catastrophically is simply due to not having the right circumstances in place for it to occur.
EDIT: And as a side note, it shows you how cheap they make these things because that really isn't a good way to power an LED from 240V - the resistor dissipates for more power than is necessary all because they don't want the added expense of a mains-rated capacitor.
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No offence but while it may not be an acceptable failure mode, it is a fact of life. Everything is subject to catastrophic failure no matter how well engineered or designed it is. -4wd
And airplanes don't crash. Why is an airliner crash international news? Because the event is so close to zero as to be virtually zero.
Catastrophic failure is unacceptable because house fires are unacceptable. Still, they happen. So we installed things that 'virtually' do not suffer catastrophic failure - ie 'whole house' protectors. And locate them where failure is less likely to create fire - ie service entrance. Plug-in protectors have a (relatively) high failure rate (which is why another international standard is forthcoming) and get located where fire risk is higher.
Why is that failure rate so high? Failures promotes sales. "My protector sacrificed itself to save my computer." Some protectors are designed to maximize profits - not protection. Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 or $150.
Anything they can do to make that fuse trip faster means less fire threat - and even more promoting the protector. But limits exist. If the fuse blows too easily, then it does not even quality as a protector in UL or equivalent 'human safety' testing.
Meanwhile, your fuse must be in the wrong spot. That thermal fuse must extinguish a light when it blows. More often, that light is a Neon glow lamp. Easier to power on 240 volts.
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Truly interesting discussion. Thanks, everyone!
I've been using a Cyberpower CP1500 with the LCD screen for the home office machines, and an APC BR1500 for the server. Both have been running without problems for the last couple of years. I keep an older APC 850 to use with a machine dedicated to audio work; there's seldom any load on it. I've had battery backups since I built my first 486 machine, and yes, surge protectors as well.
Lightning isn't the issue here in Los Angeles; I'm more concerned with having equipment bolted down when the ground shakes!
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Let's see, my electric goes through three fuse boxes, my computer system is on a battery backup plugged into a voltage regulator to prevent the battery backup from constantly switching from online to offline while on generator power. I think I'm pretty well protected... ;)
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Let's see, my electric goes through three fuse boxes, my computer system is on a battery backup plugged into a voltage regulator to prevent the battery backup from constantly switching from online to offline while on generator power. I think I'm pretty well protected... ;)-Tinman57
You may be protected. But your electronics are not. Fuses do not protect electronics or appliances. Fuses only stop fires from happening after the damage has been done. Fuses, circuit breakers, etc are only for protecting human. Even the UPS does not provide and does not claim to provide appliance protection.
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So, having it on the highest of authorities that only a pristine ground is needed to heal all woes. I refrained from replacing the derisively referred to as a "Plug-in Protection" device with its evil hollow claims to defend my server from anything ... Even tho I am well aware that the hicks around here just love to flick the power on & off now and then; not to mention letting the line voltage crawl around like a moth on crack. Just to see what would actually happen (as if I didn't already know...).
Completely ignoring the fact that my previously flawless (5 year running) 99.995% uptime record immediately plunged to 70 something. I waited until I had a better more conclusive looking number, which I've attached below:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Hint: The Zero Byte .vhd file used to be an 8GB Windows 2003 Mail Server. Now a through diagnostic of all hardware clearly shows that there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the hardware. It is all in perfect (physical) working condition. Unfortunately the excessive number of soft errors caused by (randomly) power cycling the box while under load had a rather adverse effect on the file system.
Hence I will at this point happily concede that with "proper grounding" no physical harm can or will befall ones computer. Which IMO would be an absolutely flawless conclusion, except for one minor detail ... The damn thing ain't decorative. Having a large chunk of ones data completely trashed is (sadly...) just not an acceptable outcome.
So thus ends my do servers really need clean power experiment...