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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: nudone on June 30, 2011, 04:11 AM
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a few nights back a lightning strike hit a tree about 50 metres away from my house. it was a rather surreal event, which reminded me of the death-rays in Spielberg's War of the Worlds; their was a strange humming sound then a brilliant white light and then a sound that made me think the house had been hit by a bomb (all that was obviously the tree being hit and its branches exploding off).
as i'm in England, thunder storms tend to be rather unineventful and i just leave all electrics plugged in and powered on. which is exactly what i did this time, except the computer was powered off - i thought this would be sufficient. my error.
the lightning strike has killed my computer and several of the neighbours computers. our broadband is dead, though the phone line works fine. the neighbour living next to the tree has been without power after their entire electrics were damaged, a few plug sockets charred and melted.
Now, the point of this little story is that i'm wondering how can i prevent this rare event happening again; i don't like the idea of having to buy a new motherboard/cpu/etc each time there's a bad thunder storm. you may say, just unplug the computer from the mains power supply, which is true; the problem is that i may not be there to unplug the machine if i've left it running and an unexpected storm arrives.
as it goes, i think it was a freak storm, but i'm not going to take the view that lightning never strikes twice. the weather patterns around the world appear to be changing so i'm sure there will be more "freak" storms over my house in the next few years.
okay, enough waffling. the question is, would anything have prevented the damage whilst keeping the computer powered on?
would an "uninterruptible power supply" have saved the computer? that's about the only thing i can think of trying. i obviously don't want to buy one if they aren't going to prevent the same thing happening again.
thankfully, none of my data was harmed. but i shall be building the new computer with several redundancy and backup layers built in as the lightning strike has made me realise just how catastrophic the data loss could have been.
(i'd been toying with the idea of upgrading the pc for a while so nature simply stopped me from procrastinating further: new machine will be: i7, 12 gig ram, solid state main drive, etc. Which, i hope, will be a noticeable improvement on the athlon 4800, 4 gig ram, raid 0.)
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In theory a good quality UPS should prevent this - but how long is a piece of string ?
Presumably if the strike is sufficiently sever to melt power sockets it is likely to destroy a UPS too - whether there will be sufficient protection to stop it zapping the computer too is a case of 'suck it and see'.
If you have household insurance it looks like a good time to fill out a form!
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wow.. that is scary. what a relief you didn't lose any major data.
i look forward to hearing whether a UPS would actually protect you against such a thing.
it may be that the only real cure is to unplug your pc from the outlet in a heavy storm.. though i've never done that myself.
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i look forward to hearing whether a UPS would actually protect you against such a thing.
-mouser
An online UPS would save you (though probably die valiantly in the effort), while with line interactive (cheaper) ones your guess is as good as mine.
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eleman, how do we tell if we have an online UPS or not?
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eleman, how do we tell if we have an online UPS or not?
-mouser
It should write on the box. Here is the site I buy my hardware from:
http://is.gd/g0oG0Q
The page is in Turkish but you can see that they state whether an UPS is line interactive or online, right next to the VA rating. So I guess it is a pretty significant specification.
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A few things that may help, or not.
For a few this has helped, from what I've heard.
Setup your computer room away from the main power supply to your house, if possible.
If you only have one room for your computers, shut off the breaker when a storm is coming,
a bit of an annoyance but could work, or not depending on the power surge strength.
Unplug everything, should work, more annoying solution unless you have a few plugs only.
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Out of the box thinking (and a bit silly), but if you have a laptop then when it's not charging you'd be safe :) Might be cheaper and more used than a UPS.
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yeah i didnt think of it but a laptop is a real win if you live someplace with frequent storms.
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interesting. thanks, eleman, i shall look into an online UPS. as i mentioned, this needs to be a "set it and forget it" solution.
british weather tends to be capricious at best. today's weather may report "sunny with a hint of showers" only to find that at 4pm we have a torrential downpour - which could quite easily become a thunder storm.
because of the earlier "reliable" weather report i may have decided to go out and leave the computer running, i may be away for only 30 minutes but it's still time enough for an accident to occur - so i really need something like the UPS.
(a few years ago i had a computer drown under the amount of rainfall that came in through a slightly open window - the blocked drain pipe above the window didn't help . normal rainfall would have been fine, but this was like a waterfall forcing its way in through the half inch gap the window was ajar. i was out when that happened too.)
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i'm having a rethink about all this.
nothing is going to provide a guaranteed solution, well, nothing except for unplugging the machine. plus, maybe next time it won't be a lightning strike, maybe it will be a house fire or a gas explosion or a plane crashing into the roof.
so, as the data is really the only crucial thing about the whole computer, i think a remote backup solution is the answer. that is the only sure way to have piece-of-mind. my problem then becomes that my broadband is so slow (1 meg) it's not convenient to use online storage except for a few small files.
weekly (or daily) backups to external drives that are stored off-site is the way to go.
i suppose a good UPS won't do any harm though. it could save time, stress and money at the very least.
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The best way to do it is with a two pronged shield.
The first line of defense is to protect your house power lines at the utility service entrance point. That provides "whole house" protection. But it can be a little costly since it needs an electrician or your utility company to install it. Prices range from about $200-$1000 USD depending on ratings and how fancy you want to get with status displays and blinkin' lights.
Residential Surge Suppressors are the first line of defense against damaging electrical surges and spikes that originate outside your home. They are installed by an electrician at your circuit breaker panel and safely reduce the severity of power transients caused by utility accidents, power outages and lightning.
Your second line of defense is a good quality UPS (best solution) or plug-in surge suppressor attached to sensitive equipment.
It's important to plug everything that is a part of your system into (at least) a surge suppressor. If you don't, a surge entering an attached but unprotected component (ex: monitor, cabled-in printer, phone line, etc.) can still damage your computer since there's a circuit path.
So a whole-house residential surge suppressor + local device protection is the way to go if you're that worried.
Carol's suggestion you look into if you're covered under you homeowner's/renter's insurance policy is a good one. Lightning damage is rare enough that filing a reasonable property damage claim seldom affects your rate going forward. Some insurance companies will also partially underwrite your getting a residential suppressor installed if you're in an area that experiences a lot of lightning damage. Worth asking about since they seldom volunteer that sort of information.
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Note: I've been told by an electrician that daisy-chaining two surge suppressors together boosts the level of protection to anything plugged into the downstream strip. I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it does seem to make sense since any residual surge that made it through the first suppressor would likely be stopped by the second.
eleman, how do we tell if we have an online UPS or not?
-mouser
(Old IT joke: if it cost less than a grand - or you can pick it up by yourself - it isn't an online UPS - no matter what the brochure calls it.)
There's no way you can tell just by looking at it - although size and price is a good clue. The manufacturer's site however, should have that information available. "Online" is also sometimes called "zero switchover" or "continuous" in the product literature.
Basically in an online system ALL power at the device plug is coming through the battery circuit in the UPS. In cheaper UPS systems AC power goes though a suppressor circuit (just like a power strip) but switches over to battery in the event of a surge or power loss. That switchover takes a minute but definite amount of time. If the surge is large enough that it too rapidly blows through the suppressor circuit, the UPS may not have enough time to switch to the battery circuit before it - and whatever is attached to it - gets roasted.
It's pretty rare having that happen. But it does, so that's why there are "online" or "continuous" UPSs.
Good article here (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/typesOnLine-c.html) if you're interested in a more in-depth description of how they work. The article is a little old. But it's still accurate since UPS systems work the same now as they did back then.
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thanks 40hz. that's great information - but pretty much makes me conclude that data is god and the machine can simply be sacrificed. it'll be cheaper for me to replace the computer parts than have a proper electrical system installed.
and, as we all know, our data is irreplaceable so it simply must be backed up somewhere safe - but done conveniently enough not to make it a "chore".
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Last November I bought a surge protector power bar that has a $75,000 guarantee. It might not actually protect things, but if anything does go wrong, it's going to cover a lot of damage. It was quite expensive though. I think it was $80 or $90... I forget.
Still, it's not $1,000, but it is an option... Doesn't address data though... but if you backup often, that's pretty much covered, though you're still stuck with down time.
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Here (http://www.dansdata.com/gz039.htm) is an interesting piece on surge protectors and connected equipment warranties. Worth to read.
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Pretty much what I had heard about Belkin warranties - not worth the paper they are written on.
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Last November I bought a surge protector power bar that has a $75,000 guarantee. It might not actually protect things, but if anything does go wrong, it's going to cover a lot of damage. It was quite expensive though. I think it was $80 or $90... I forget.
-Renegade
A couple of years ago, I bought something that sounds quite similar to Renegade's surge protector. Mine is an APC Back-UPS ES550 battery backup/surge protector that claims to provide up to 48 minutes of battery backup for home computers in case of power failure. Like his, it offers (or claims to offer) a $75,000 guarantee that includes damage due to lightning. I have fortunately never had to test its ability to survive the kind of close lightning strike that nudone experienced, but it has saved me a number of times when there have been momentary or extended power outages. When the power suddenly goes out, my computer continues (powered by the APC's battery) as if nothing has happened, giving me the opportunity to turn it off normally if I wish.
Even so, if there's a bad thunderstorm, I tend to turn off the computer and pull out the plug connecting the APC to the electricity. I do this as well if I'm about to go out for a while and there's a prediction of thunderstorms. Nudone's unfortunate experience makes me feel better about being a worrywart.
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There are some Surge Protection extention cables you can buy from PC World and Argos that come with a massive insurance policy to say if they fail (even for direct lightning strikes) theyw ill cover the cost of ANY damage to ANYTHING plugged into that device at the time of surge. They dont cost all that much, especially when in the UK we seem to be going from mega sunny to crazy ass storm in the matter of minutes (seems to be happening quite a lot these days).
We have _never_ had ground strikes anywhere close to us over the past decade, and I can count around 5 that have hit within a ~30 Mile Radius within the last 12 months.
Im not sure how far north/south you are from us nudone but from what I can gather, the Lake District and soem places down near Devon and Cornwall are the worst affected at the moment. I'm in East Lancashire (Blackburn).
Even so, if there's a bad thunderstorm, I tend to turn off the computer and pull out the plug connecting the APC to the electricity. I do this as well if I'm about to go out for a while and there's a prediction of thunderstorms. Nudone's unfortunate experience makes me feel better about being a worrywart.
Theres the problem...Here in the UK, we don't have any real knowledge when a storm is going to manifest, purely because they hit without any warning at all.
The last storm we had here was a week or so ago, and all the weather report told us was "Slightly Overcast with light chance of precipitation" (What we got was "Black Skies with rain that hurts when it hits you"
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it'll be cheaper for me to replace the computer parts than have a proper electrical system installed.-nudone
You are not just protecting a computer. That surge simply selected a best path to earth. Today a computer. Next time, the furnace or dishwasher.
All appliances have superior protection. Protectors adjacent to appliances may compromise that protection. Most (ie UPS) do not even claim to provide protection. View its spec numbers. Where does it list protection from each type of surge? It doesn't. Protection exists in hearsay. See its hundreds of joules? Destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. But near zero joules means it can claim 100% protection in advertising and myths.
Protectors are effective only when that energy is not inside. Therefore many install ‘secondary’ protection. Hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbed harmlessly outside by earthing only one ‘whole house’ protector.
Your 'primary' protection is installed by the utility often at each transformer. In every case, a protection layer is only defined by one always required item – earth ground. No earth ground means a protector is not effective.
Some numbers. Surges that can overwhelm superior protection inside appliances occur maybe once every seven years. UK typically suffers less often.
That once every X years is the reason for surge protection. And not just from lightning. Also from other just as destructive anomalies. So that destructive energy is not inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances.
Many will spend the 1 quid per protected appliance for a superior solution. How often do you need it? What is a ten or twenty year history in your neighborhood? Was it one event every twenty years. Or does your part of town suffer more often? A typical number throughout the world is maybe once every seven years. Therefore many earth one ‘whole house’ protector. UPS specs really do not claim effective protection.
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okay, enough waffling. the question is, would anything have prevented the damage whilst keeping the computer powered on?
-nudone
Bad luck with the strike, you have my sympathies! When we were last in the U.K. my Canadian wife was astonished to find summertime sunshine and clear skies morph into a full-blown run-for-cover-storm and back again within about 30 minutes.
Personally, I find that the very best protection is a redundant, up-to-date machine. When one of mine goes down (as one just did) I simply move to another room, fire up a different machine and, if needed, refresh the data from an external drive. As long as I keep the software on all machines more or less in sync, and I'm scrupulous about backups and rotating the backup drives, I can go from calamity to recovery in as long as it takes me to move to another chair. Cost might be an issue… depends on whether income potential is tied to what's on any given machine. If income is at stake a couple of grand for a spare machine suddenly looks like peanuts. I'm on a dreadfully slow connection here and the cloud's not a viable option even if I want it (which I don't).
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When we were last in the U.K. my Canadian wife was astonished to find summertime sunshine and clear skies morph into a full-blown run-for-cover-storm and back again within about 30 minutes.
-cranioscopical
You should try Scotland - I remember one May holiday a few years back were I was suffering from dehydration from heat exhaustion, had the campsite demolished by storm force wind and rain and woke up to snow - all in under 24 hours!
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Yes, that's what I'll do, good idea: from the ashes of the old machine, I'll rebuild it into something perfectly decent as a standby machine. Because of the way I've ordered the new pc I'll have a case a psu spare to start with if nothing else.
My income does now depend on the data on my machine so that really has to be my priority in protecting. Combined with the downtime a dead machine causes, a backup pc makes a very great deal of sense.
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You should try Scotland - I remember one May holiday a few years back were I was suffering from dehydration from heat exhaustion, had the campsite demolished by storm force wind and rain and woke up to snow - all in under 24 hours!
-Carol Haynes
Scotland!
So, it's true… there is some corner of a sporran field that is for ever England.
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My income does now depend on the data on my machine so that really has to be my priority in protecting. Combined with the downtime a dead machine causes, a backup pc makes a very great deal of sense.
-nudone
It's the down time that can do you in if you work to tight deadlines.
A fall-back machine makes even more sense if you have some of its parts already at your disposal.
These disasters are a painful way to learn but their lessons are seldom forgotten. Cold comfort, I know.
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My suggestion is to not use any of the old equipment. Although the parts may look good, that does not mean that they are. I got some parts from a friend where lightning struck the telephone line transformer (about 100 meters from his house). After I tried two of those parts suddenly my mainboard developed a problem and died.
Take your loss regarding the hardware. As the saying goes: God works in mysterious ways...well, he had a good teacher called: lightning!
Further precaution: only if you are a bandmember of Metallica, you can ride it.
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Oh. That's a bit worrying. I was intending on using the sound and gfx cards out of the old machine to put inside the new setup. Oh and all the hard drives too.
I think I'll take the risk. Or maybe not. I don't know what to do now.
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Try the parts one by one on a mainboard that supports the cards, but that you do not care (too much) about. If the parts hold out for a week or so without problems, then I would consider using the cards on the backup PC you want to build.
There is no need to be burned twice by one single event.
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Yes, I can live with that. The new machine has enough inside to work without me having to swap anything over.
Something just occurred to me. The psu out of the dead machine works fine - shouldn't it have blown up?
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My income does now depend on the data on my machine so that really has to be my priority in protecting. Combined with the downtime a dead machine causes, a backup pc makes a very great deal of sense.
-nudone
A backup machine does make perfect sense, but it doesn't need to be as glorious as your main machine. It only needs to be good enough to get you by till you can replace the main machine. (my 2 backup machines are P4 Prescott, main machine is a Q6600) But once you put it together and set it up with the essential software you need to keep you going, UNPLUG IT. Otherwise, if you end up losing your main machine to a lightning strike, you will probably also lose your backup machine too, if it is also plugged in at the time.
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Keen comment App103 as you easily forget to do so, when synchronizing software and/or data from the main PC to the backup PC is done.
Nudone, are you sure the PSU works fine? Does it supply the intended voltages (+12 Volt, +5 Volt, GND, -5 Volt, -12 Volt) within the margins set by the manufacturer, does it still put out the specified Ampere? Seeing a "pilot" light on the mainboard coming up does not mean that the power supply (reliably) works.
You would be terrified about the amount of power supplies that I have here which appear to be working, but really are not up to the task anymore. For fun's sake, I did count them and there are 14 of them lying around here. The sad reality is that Paraguay has a lot of power failures/spikes/noise which results in a lot of prematurely dying power supplies.
Getting powerful, high quality ones did not pan out. They didn't really last longer than the cheap ones and with the huge price difference I rather replace for another cheap one. Which occurs quite regularly given the amount of faulty PSU's here.
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UNPLUG IT
-app103
Probably good to write that backwards across the forehead!
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Yes, good point about unplugging the reserve machine - I had already thought about it and taken it one step further in my head:
only one machine is ever allowed to be plugged in at any one time, i.e. there will always be a machine safe from a power spike. Therefore data transfer between the two machines will have to done via a third storage device, which could just be a hard drive.
Sound advice about the psu being damaged from shades; I will try to test it.
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The sad reality is that Paraguay has a lot of power failures/spikes/noise which results in a lot of prematurely dying power supplies.
-Shades
Consider using UPS. Even cheap ones should provide some protection against voltage fluctuations and line noise.
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Yes, good point about unplugging the reserve machine - I had already thought about it and taken it one step further in my head:
only one machine is ever allowed to be plugged in at any one time, i.e. there will always be a machine safe from a power spike. Therefore data transfer between the two machines will have to done via a third storage device, which could just be a hard drive.
Sound advice about the psu being damaged from shades; I will try to test it.
-nudone
Sounds like a case for NAS with good synchronisation software.
Actually this is what I do with my laptop - I keep all important data synced with my desktop.
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Sounds like a case for NAS with good synchronisation software.
Actually this is what I do with my laptop - I keep all important data synced with my desktop.
-Carol Haynes
But remember to unplug it, otherwise, if you get hit, you could lose your NAS and everything on it.
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Had this happen to me about two weeks after I got my first Pentium (c. 1992-93). Had a special insurance rider on the computer for just such a disaster. Took the box, receipts, and the electric company's report to the insurance company and they spent a year denying the claim.
I've never spent a single dime on insurance since that day that the government didn't force me to buy.
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only one machine is ever allowed to be plugged in at any one time, i.e. there will always be a machine safe from a power spike. Therefore data transfer between the two machines will have to done via a third storage device, which could just be a hard drive.
-nudone
Actually this is what I do with my laptop - I keep all important data synced with my desktop.
-Carol Haynes
Obviously, this depends on how you work and at what but don't forget to keep the software itself as much in sync as possible — not just the data.
One continually develops habits and ways of working that improve productivity — a macro here, a little bit of code there, some software that's improved by a useful update, which in turn further changes work habits in small ways. Suddenly swapping to a machine that hasn't your own current conveniences and enhancements can add a layer of frustration that'll have you gnashing your teeth and ripping out hair. That's especially true in a small shop when attempting to service a deadline that's already been threatened by the principal machine going down. Just a few tiny examples: were your favourite file manger suddenly to revert to its out-of-the-box state, just how annoyed might you be? Step down from CS5 to CS4 in mid project — okay by you? Wrong graphics tablet driver?
For me, at home, this means a short session on each machine every couple of weeks or so.
Having just been through this, I realize that I should keep a log of the changes made to my main machine — I missed some. It all sounds very tedious but if one makes it a routine it's no worse than doing the dishes. When the crunch comes, you'll thank that previous you for spending an hour, then, to save you five minutes now.
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Having just been through this, I realize that I should keep a log of the changes made to my main machine — I missed some. It all sounds very tedious but if one makes it a routine it's no worse than doing the dishes. When the crunch comes, you'll thank that previous you for spending an hour, then, to save you five minutes now.
-cranioscopical
+1!
I've learned (through bitter experience) to keep a log on every machine and router I use or am responsible for. A small text file kept in the root directory can be a lifesaver. Especially for a heavily customized and tweaked server.
You can encrypt it if you decide to store passwords or other sensitive information in it. Something like f0dder's fsekrit app is perfect for that since it runs as a standalone. Keynote or something similar can also be used. I keep copies of all my logfiles on a heavily encrypted USB key which I always keep with me. This gives me immediate access to the data whenever I need it besides acting as an offsite backup.
I learned the wisdom of doing this the first time I had to rebuild my main machine and realized I couldn't remember half the clever and nice things I had done to it...
:)
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Having just been through this, I realize that I should keep a log of the changes made to my main machine — I missed some. It all sounds very tedious but if one makes it a routine it's no worse than doing the dishes. When the crunch comes, you'll thank that previous you for spending an hour, then, to save you five minutes now.
-cranioscopical
If we are really insistent on complete redundancy, why not buy two of the same machine, make them identical on, say, a weekly basis through an imaging program like clonezilla or ghost if you are feeling particularly and ridiculously rich?
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Having just been through this, I realize that I should keep a log of the changes made to my main machine — I missed some. It all sounds very tedious but if one makes it a routine it's no worse than doing the dishes. When the crunch comes, you'll thank that previous you for spending an hour, then, to save you five minutes now.
-cranioscopical
If we are really insistent on complete redundancy, why not buy two of the same machine, make them identical on, say, a weekly basis through an imaging program like clonezilla or ghost if you are feeling particularly and ridiculously rich?
-eleman
I know a business exec that does just that.
Actually, she has three identical laptops.
And she has someone do the imaging for her.
But she's unusually nervous about "being down."
And quite wealthy. ;D
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But she's unusually nervous about "being down."
And quite wealthy. ;D
-40hz
Wealth is a poor substitute for peace of mind.
edited to make the phrase sexier.
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If we are really insistent on complete redundancy, why not buy two of the same machine, make them identical on, say, a weekly basis through an imaging program
-eleman
To be sure, that's an ideal. I think your comment may have been slightly tongue-in-cheek but I'll take it at face value anyway.
What I'm trying to achieve is immediate compatibility between dissimilar machines. I'm probably not alone in that my home setup is a principal machine (replaced every 2.5 years on average) backed up by the previous main machine. My wife's machine is replaced at less frequent intervals (she uses her box as a means of communication and not much else). When her machine is replaced is usually dictated by when it can no longer perform what I need from a backup. For me, there's no real advantage to having identical hardware as long as I can do what I need to on the previous ironmongery.
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But she's unusually nervous about "being down."
And quite wealthy. ;D
-40hz
Wealth is a poor substitute for peace of mind.
edited to make the phrase sexier.
-eleman
I have it on excellent authority ("her" being my niece) that she sleeps like a baby most nights.
Not having to worry about money (at least not too much) has a lot to do with it. Which she'll be the first to admit, having experienced life on both ends of the financial spectrum. ;D :
Money may not be everything - but "poor & happy" isn't all it's cracked up to be either. ;)
At the very least, if you're well off, you can afford to pay someone to do your drive mirroring for you! ;D
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Got to agree with everyone above. I've been trying to keep my girlfriend's computer in sync with mine regarding software configs, plus keeping notes on what those settings are. Problem is I'm always a month or two late with it all, which then becomes several months late - okay, I'm lying, it's more like a year.
Update on my new pc that arrived today. It doesn't work. Now expecting a long drawn out saga to unfold repeatedly having to take it back to the shop to get it fully functional.
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Now expecting a long drawn out saga to unfold repeatedly having to take it back to the shop to get it fully functional.
don't jump to conclusions, probably a very simple fix.
also something to consider -- if all this damage occured due to a lightning skrike, imagine what would happen if you actually had a lightning strike.
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imagine what would happen if you actually had a lightning strike.
-mouser
It'd be pretty risty!
(and, mouser, all of the rest of us have successfully resisted the temptation ;D)
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It doesn't work.
-nudone
I know you're worried about lightning but you're going to have to plug it in!
Good luck, let's hope you get a quick fix!
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also something to consider -- if all this damage occured due to a lightning skrike, imagine what would happen if you actually had a lightning strike.
-mouser
Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. ;D :P
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Mouser was right. And maybe I was just lucky.
I tried to get windows installed for about the twentieth time this morning (after wasting about five hours of my life yesterday attempting the same). I decided enough was enough and arranged for the machine to be collected monday. The shop I ordered it from could have a go and I'd happily pay them to do so.
But, after finishing the phone call I decided I'd try one last thing...
I replaced the sata cable connected to the solid state drive with one of the 'special ones' still wrapped up in the motherboard box. This suddenly allowed windows to install perfectly.
The machine was built by Overclockers (in the uk), a store that have dealt with high end machines for years - so you'd assume they know what they are doing when it comes to putting a new build together for a customer. Somehow they overlooked using the correct 6gb sata cable.
I could have just ordered the parts myself and then built the machine AND double checked which cables to use as I put it all together. I didn't as I thought it would be good to let the experts do this one and save myself hours of stress and trouble.
Moral of the story: it's an old one but...
If you want something done properly, then you better do it yourself.
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I would still treat the machine as on probation for the next month, and run lots of "burn in" tools on it -- software tools designed to stress test your pc components (memory, hd, etc.).
It's possible that it was just the cable, but it's also possible the problem is deeper and just waiting recur. The most important thing though is that if there is a problem that is going to recur, you find out now while the shop would still fix it.
So do yourself a favor and stress the hell out of the machine in the next few days and don't risk any real data on it until it's proven stable.
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I admit, I don't trust the machine yet. It appears to be working fine but I am almost expecting to turn it on tomorrow to find it bluescreen after 5 minutes.
Or, to be more precise, I'm expecting the problem(s) to reoccur if I attempt to put my other hard drives into the machines - as that could mean I'll move the "special" sata cable by a few nanometres and that will kill the solid state drive.
I guess I've just got to bight the bullet and see. Put all the hardware inside and then stress test it like you say.
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I replaced the sata cable connected to the solid state drive with one of the 'special ones' still wrapped up in the motherboard box. This suddenly allowed windows to install perfectly.
...
If you want something done properly, then you better do it yourself.-nudone
Your story is why better manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free. That find failures by first identifying them. And to also locate strange problems later when your working machine suddenly goes funky.
Windows intentionally works around and tries to avoid failures. Windows is a poor hardware diagnostic tool. Is it Windows or hardware? More confusion when comprehensive diagnostics are not provided.
Burn-in was never about executing diagnostics overnight. That myth perverts a well proven diagnostic procedure. Burn-in is literally just that. A computer is heated to over 100 degrees F. Then tested. Computers that are defective but still work at 70 degrees F will quickly identify an existing and 'what will get worse' defect when tested at a completely ideal room temperature: 100 degrees F. That is always what burn-in was. And how to find a defect long before its warranty expires.
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The machine was built by Overclockers (in the uk), a store that have dealt with high end machines for years - so you'd assume they know what they are doing when it comes to putting a new build together for a customer. Somehow they overlooked using the correct 6gb sata cable.
It's inconceivable that the machine didnt work and test at last minimally ok before they sent it out. While it's possible that the cable was bad, it seems just as likely to me that the cable was perhaps loose or flakey, and so seemed to work when they sent it.
The very first thing to do when hardware in a pc seems not to work, is unplug it, and then reseat it. This goes for all cables, memory chips, cards, etc. So it may just be a matter of unplugging the cable and reseating it that fixed it, rather than changing the cable. Who knows.
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I don't think the cable was bad; it was simply the wrong cable for the socket it was plugged into. The manual clearly states that the socket is 6gb as does the 'special' cable itself (the one I had to plug in, which clearly looks different to the standard sata cable that they'd used).
The conversations I had on the phone with their support staff indicates that their testing procedure may be nothing more than a quick visual check. Their first response to the problem was: it could be the ram or the ssd.
So, how could it be either if they were tested before shipping.
I think they just made a simple error. They thought a cable is a cable. Maybe it is with a different motherboard and ssd. Maybe the cable isn't the problem; I believe it is as I'd tried connecting the original cable into a second socket several times.
The truth may simply be that the machine was built in England. A common work attitude here tends to be if you make a mistake and can't be bothered to correct it then that's perfectly acceptable. It's far more important to get your fag (cigarette) break in or steal something from the company you work for. So someone used the standard sata cable, wrapped it all up nicely with plastic tie wraps with all the the other cables, stood back and admired the nice neat cabling they'd done all through the case, then realised they'd used the wrong sata cable for the ssd. At this point they had two options: redo all their precious work or go and have a fag-break and pretend they didn't see the mistake.
Or they just weren't paying attention or thought they knew best and didn't need the 'special' cable. Either way, they used the wrong cable and wasted my time. Next time I'll just save a lot of bother and build the machine myself.
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It is inconceivable that the computer wasn't switched on to check it worked ... but then it is overclockers and they are ALWAYS right (arrogant bastards) - which is why I don't shop with them any more.
Try getting warranty support from them. I had an ASUS board go bad (with 3 year warranty). ASUS don't deal with the public (which is illegal) - you have to send stuff through the dealer (though what you do when the supplier has gone out of business I don't know).
Anyway OC refused to send the mobo back to ASUS for a replacement (even though ASUS told me they had stocks of the same board for warranty claims) and instead they gave me 30% refund since it was 2 years old. They refused to be budged on this and I couldn't be arsed to take it to court.
Moral of the story - if you want a reliable supplier that actually gives a crap don't use overclockers.co.uk
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Please forgive the following quote...some posts in this topic remind me of:
[Vizzini has just cut the rope The Dread Pirate Roberts is climbing up]
Vizzini: HE DIDN'T FALL? INCONCEIVABLE.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
:)
Surely troublesome to receive such pricey equipment that doesn't work out-of-the-box, my condolences.
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Mouser was right. And maybe I was just lucky.
I tried to get windows installed for about the twentieth time this morning (after wasting about five hours of my life yesterday attempting the same). I decided enough was enough and arranged for the machine to be collected monday. The shop I ordered it from could have a go and I'd happily pay them to do so.
But, after finishing the phone call I decided I'd try one last thing...
I replaced the sata cable connected to the solid state drive with one of the 'special ones' still wrapped up in the motherboard box. This suddenly allowed windows to install perfectly.
The machine was built by Overclockers (in the uk), a store that have dealt with high end machines for years - so you'd assume they know what they are doing when it comes to putting a new build together for a customer. Somehow they overlooked using the correct 6gb sata cable.
I could have just ordered the parts myself and then built the machine AND double checked which cables to use as I put it all together. I didn't as I thought it would be good to let the experts do this one and save myself hours of stress and trouble.
Moral of the story: it's an old one but...
If you want something done properly, then you better do it yourself.
-nudone
Here is a general rule. Whenever a PC is moved, check the cabling inside (especially from those flimsy SATA connectors). Thermal and electrical 'creep' from cabling, together with moving the PC case can have unexpected results. When you move the PC with a car (LAN party or something) you can add vibrations to the list of events that will disconnect your hardware.
Being burned twice myself with this I always (and I mean always!) check.
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I didn't realise Overclockers were like that, Carol. But then, you never do find these things out until the damage is done. Any recommendations for a similar styled store but with a nicer attitude?
The advice people are providing about checking the cables and anything else that might have come a little loose when equipment gets moved around is sound good advice. But, I hope I've made myself clear about the problem I had, if not, here goes again: it was not a loose cable it was a wrong cable. I disconnected and reconnected this "wrong" cable several times during my install procedures (I disconnected it whilst installing to an old hard drive I had - which allowed a perfect install first time, and I also tried putting the cable into a 2nd socket).
Okay, I haven't ruled out that the orignal "wrong" cable may just be damaged, maybe there isn't even any difference between a normal sata cable and a 6gb - I suspect there is as they are clearly labelled with 6Gb/s on the connectors. To me, it now seems quite obvious that a 6Gb/s solid state drive connected to a 6Gb/s socket (clearly marked on the motherboard and in the manaul) require a 6Gb/s sata cable, not just a standard cable.
I'm boring everyone by repeating all this as it's not my job to check every component in the machine to see if it's correct - not when I paid the extra for the "professionals" to build the machine for me and make all the cabling look neat and tidy inside the case. I assumed they knew what they were doing. Seems they aren't much better than any other typical computer shop - and as Carol has pointed out, they are probably a lot worse.
p.s.
Just thought I'd quickly comment about Carol's (and mousers) comments about they should have checked the machine before shipping it. I'm sure they did check it. But what does that entail? They could only check it so far - maybe they do an electronic test but not a visual inspection - so they never noticed that they'd overlooked using the correct type sata cable. Their test simply showed that the hardware was fine and working correctly - which it was, until you try putting windows 7 64 bit onto it.
(I guess I'm banging on about all this as I am trying to convince myself that the problem is solved. I've not turned the machine on today. Maybe I'll be looking for a pickaxe to put through it later on today.)
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Their test simply showed that the hardware was fine and working correctly - which it was, until you try putting windows 7 64 bit onto it.
Absolutely.. As you said in your initial posts, the drive was found but only gave trouble when you tried to do a full OS install. Very possible their testing did not check for real hard drive use. So they turned it on, everything was detected, they turned it off.
So many of us have had problems with loose cables or unplugging and replugging components that it's just a natural thing to suspect.
A quick look around the web about 6gb sata cables is not definitive but it seems quite plausible that the problem was indeed that the non-6gb cable they attached as either not good enough or was defective.
Given how clear the change in behavior was when you swapped the cables, i STRONGLY suspect you have indeed fixed the problem. :up:
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I am trying to convince myself that the problem is solved. I've not turned the machine on today.
-nudone
Remember the occasion when your old machine was flaky and you turned it off for a while? When you went to turn it on again you tripped over the cat, spilt a can of pop all over the carpet, fell and banged your head on the case whereupon the cat turned around and scratched you? Remember how, then, the old machine worked okay after you turned it on?
Have you tried that this time? :huh:
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Currently unknown is if that cable solved a problem or only cured symptoms. For example, a cold or broken solder joint on the motherboard or disk drive still exists. Many would then blame a loose cable that (if properly constructed) must never be jarred loose by moving a machine (Michael Dell did not have routine cable problems when his machines were moved far more violently by shippers.)
Actual problem was not identified before it was changed. Just another reason why better computer manufacturers have and use comprehensive hardware diagnostics.
What happens if you have future problems? Will you again spend hours of frustration trying to solve what could have been identified in minutes by diagnostic software?
Why a problem even existed, the resulting frustration, and excessive time to find a trivial problem: that is the real lesson. Comprehensive hardware diagnostics would have identified this problem immediately, without doubt, and without hassle. Diagnostics also convert future failures into obvious solutions. Diagnostics are even necessary for a useful burn-in test. Burn-in test that finds a defect (ie cold or broken solder joint) before it becomes a problem. Comprehensive diagnostics are necessary even for effective burn-in testing.
They hope you never discuss or complain about what should have existed and was used even before shipping.
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I am trying to convince myself that the problem is solved. I've not turned the machine on today.
-nudone
Remember the occasion when your old machine was flaky and you turned it off for a while? When you went to turn it on again you tripped over the cat, spilt a can of pop all over the carpet, fell and banged your head on the case whereupon the cat turned around and scratched you? Remember how, then, the old machine worked okay after you turned it on?
Have you tried that this time? :huh:
-cranioscopical
Hey that was me - failing that I kill a chicken and examine its entrails. Usually works.
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A more serious comment - have you invalidated the warranty by fixing their mess?
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FWIW I'm surprised more people don't just build their own if they're going to spend over $800 on a PC. Most likely it won't be the biggest bargain out there. (Bespoke seldom is - no matter who does the building.) But at least you know exactly what you've got, what your warranty status is, and how to fix it.
Today's PCs are more than easy enough to put together as long as you don't want it water-cooled. A chimpanzee with a screwdriver is all it takes. I suspect that's what assembles the bulk of the manufactured models anyway now that China's slave...um, entrepreneurial labor pool is starting to demand subsistence wages. (Ungrateful gits! Where do they get off asking to be paid...) ;)
8)
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A more serious comment - have you invalidated the warranty by fixing their mess?
-Carol Haynes
I really don't want to know the answer to that one. Really, you know how to push my stress levels into the red don't you, Carol.
Anyway, more importantly, I've put my hard drives from the old machine into the new one. The "wrong" sata cable is still in there and being used but I didn't pay enough attention to remember if I've attached it to a hard drive or the DVD. I suppose, time will tell if there's a problem with it. Okay, so it was stupid of me to leave it in there...
...It so happens that I'm even more stupid than that. I've just been adding up the cost of the components they sent me as part of their "choose your own system" deal. It appears I've paid them around £150 simply for the task of putting the components into the case. In other words, I've paid them £150 to put the machine together wrong, let them waste 8 hours of my life AND, I've had to undo all their daft neat cabling as I needed the plugs for all of my old hardware.
Honestly, I was absolutely shocked when I calculated I'd paid them all that for building the machine. I only went for the "choose your sytem" deal as I thought it would involve a discount compared to buying all the parts individually - like what usually happens when you buy several items at once.
When I think about it, it makes me feel sick. An absolute insult to injury. Okay, maybe charge a bit for building the machine, maybe £50, but not £150. That's just robbery.
You know. If I really didn't want to just move on and get back to sitting in front of a working computer, I'd send the whole lot back and ask for a full refund (it looks like they do that under their terms & conditions under the 7 day distance selling thingy). Anyway, I can't as I've messed about with all their tidy cable ties so I'm sure they'd say the machine isn't as sold.
Moving on, something I found interesting. Because of the 12 gig ram and pagefile, hibernate and other stuff, Windows was occupying around 40 gig on the SSD. Before realising this, I thought I'd made another mistake in buying only a 60 gig SSD - believing there was nothing I could do to stop Windows hogging everything. But it's quite simple, you just disable or reduce all the hogging features. Now Windows is consuming around 11 gig, yes from 40 down to 11 and everything works fine. No doubt Windows 8 will be a bit more intelligent when it comes to drive space (or maybe not, the Microsoft solution is probably just to recommend only buying drives above 200 gig).
This would be the final chapter but I've a 30" monitor being delivered. I'm sure this will induce more pain - especially when it was £300 less than all the other places I saw online. Too good to be true? We shall see.
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Sorry to say it but it just wouldn't be worth a business building a machine for £50. It doesn't cover labour costs, national insurance, stock depreciation etc. and you also have to factor in providing warranty service, facilities for building (unless it is a small one person business), insurance etc..
I certainly couldn't/wouldn't build a computer for the price for a client.
If you look at off the shelf computers from the big boys I'd guess that over 75% of the cost is split in profits for the manufacturer and retailer (given the huge scale of bulk discounts they must get).
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True, I can't complain that they want to make money. I just wish I'd not been so eager to buy a new machine and then I'd have spent a bit of time calculating what it would cost me. Maybe I'd still have gone for the option of them building it regardless of the cost - because I would have considered it worth it to avoid all the hassle myself.
Oh well, it's done now.
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spending time worrying about wasting money is often much worse an affliction that wasting a little money. if you had built it yourself you'd just as likely have a whole host of different problems.
just put it out of your mind, it sounds like you did well in the end -- just enjoy your new super pc :up:
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Just for the sake of info, from everything I can find (and this was not something I knew so I was curious enough to look around a bit), SATA 3, AKA 6GB/s SATA, did *not* change the cabling at all. That being said, there *may* be differences in cable quality and *shielding* and due to the higher data rate SATA 3 is going to have lower tolerance for mediocre cables.
http://forum.crucial.com/t5/Solid-State-Drives-SSD/SATA-III-cable-C300-UD7/m-p/11960#M4271
http://www.jdhodges.com/2011/06/performance-difference-sata-ii-3gbs-sata-iii-6gbps-cables-solved/
With that in mind, unless the cable you had problems with is a different brand from your others that work (not the 6GB/s one you have now, but any others you might be using), or otherwise seems like it may simply be a "low quality cable", I would tend to suspect it may actually be flaky/bad. Something to think about. The cables are cheap, may be best just throwing that one out...
- Oshyan
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Right. Can't say I'm too surprised that they are the same (unless there is a genuine improvement with shielding and quality). I didn't want to research if there was a difference or not as I didn't want to find out they were identical and then blow my "wrong cable" theory out of the water. Knowing that there isn't a difference also explains why the store didn't bother to use the special cable.
Not sure what to do or say, really. The machine appears fine now and I really don't know which is the original "bad" cable as I've got four identical old style sata cables in there now (plus the "special" 6Gb/s cable) that all came with the ASUS motherboard.
I guess first sign I see of something not working correctly I should just buy four new cables to replace the ones I have, that's the only way I'll really know I've removed the possible dodgy cable.
Or, I just order four new cables right now and avoid the trouble of something going wrong. One annoying problem is that I don't know if it's the socket on the motherboard that's at fault (or even something else).
Having said all that - there IS a potential difference because of the quality of the cable. Perhaps there genuinely is a good reason for this and that is simply why the solid state drive now works.
I'm beginning to really hate computers. I think I'll just go and bury my head in the sand until the machine explodes in a spectacular fashion.
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I'm beginning to really hate computers. I think I'll just go and bury my head in the sand...
-nudone
know that feeling (with sympathies)
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I'm beginning to really hate computers. I think I'll just go and bury my head in the sand until the machine explodes in a spectacular fashion. -nudone
It’s not the computer that is a problem. You keep ignoring posts you don't like. Feelings and subjective recommendations should be nowhere in this discussion. As a result, you are confused and frustrated.
What you need to know about the cable was already suggested. Your story is why better manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free. That find failures by first identifying them.
Does the cable work? Is it sufficient? Why so many answers and you still do not have one? Even citations did not provide numbers; were only subjective; were only speculation. To not be confused means ignoring every post that is subjective, that does not say why, and does not include numbers.
What is the worst case test for disk drive access - unique only to your machine? Comprehensive hardware diagnostics. That (and a backup machine) has always been your best solution.
Computers are easily. Hard part is unlearning bad habits. Hard for most is to love what is best - posts only with technical facts and numbers. Recommendations that are subjective, without reasons why, and without numbers are best ignored. Then computers get much easier.
You have no idea if the SATA cable is relevant. Even diagnostics were not executed.
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westom, i do appreciate what you are saying but i've not responded directly to your suggestions as i really don't know how to go out diagnosing the problem.
the "bad" cable doesn't appear to be bad at all at the moment. so i can only conclude there is nothing wrong with it. same applies to the solid state drive, works fine as does the motherboard and other components in the machine.
i don't have any real testing equipment, other than to keep swapping hardware around until i find something that doesn't work. i don't have the time for that and i wouldn't find any satisfaction in doing it either.
so, i think i understand and agree with you that it is important to find the solution to what caused the problem - but i don't know how. not in any practical way, i need the computer to earn a living so sending it to the store only creates even more problems for me.
maybe i'm just missing something obvious, are there simple ways to diagnose the trouble i've had. any suggestions will be appreciated (other than taking it to the store or buying equipment to test it with).
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i don't have any real testing equipment, other than to keep swapping hardware around until i find something that doesn't work. i don't have the time for that and i wouldn't find any satisfaction in doing it either.-nudone
Swapping is a worst diagnostic technique. Do you have a computer, a disk drive, and that cable? Then you have all necessary test hardware.
Apparently you are making assumptions rather than asking for the details. Provided was only enough information for the executive summary. What is done to have facts means you knew good diagnostic procedure or asked for details. Finally you asked.
First, only better computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free. That should be a major lesson for your future and for others.
Second, every minimally acceptable disk drive manufacturer also provided comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free. Download those diagnostics from drive manufacturer site or from bootdisk.com
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There are times when one needs to really do a hardcore investigation into the cause of a failure, and then there are times to say "the problem is fixed, that's good enough." at this point i think your best bet is to get back to enjoying your new computer and just be religious about keeping backups of any data on that new computer, in case the problem turns out to be a bad hard drive.
Personally I would also try hard to put that drive and pc to the test in the next week or so -- defrag it, run benchmarks on it. If it's going to fail, better to find out sooner rather than later. And just relax and enjoy it!
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I'll have a look at what diagnostic downloads Crucial and ASUS have - in a few days time and run the checks then. If there's anything bad, then I'll report back. Until then I'll be enjoying the machine (I hope).
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Someone who has some experience with "Burn In" tools should tell us a good free program for doing this.
Here's an example of a payware one:
http://www.passmark.com/products/bit.htm
What BurnInTest does is thoroughly exercise the hardware in a PC in a short period of time, in the same way as normal applications use a PC over a long period of time. This takes advantage of the fact that computer hardware tends to fail either very early in its life or after many thousands of hours of use. Typically BurnInTest should be used before a PC is put into service, as the failure of a computer that isn’t being used for a critical application and doesn’t have any critical data is much less damaging, (especially if it is still under warranty).
BurnInTest will bring intermittent or hidden problems to the surface so that after a successfully run the computer can be used with a much higher level of confidence. BurnInTest can also be used by overclockers to verify system stability at high clock speeds.
BurnInTest tests the CPU, hard drives, RAM, CD-ROMs, CD burners, DVDs, sound cards, 2D graphics, 3D graphic, network connection, etc.
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@nudone:
Investing in diagnostic software does seem a bit overkill for your situation. And as the market for such software is limited, expect a high price for it as well.
My (rather Cheap) Asus motherboard came with some diagnostic software in its BIOS. The reported diagnostics are not relevant to your particular case, but I know that the BIOS from high end (Asus) motherboards contain all kinds of extra software for overclocking, benchmarking and what not.
Find out if the BIOS on your motherboard has benchmarking tools and use that first for some (very basic) hardware diagnostics. Find out what the I/O throughput is from the manufacturer's website/decent hardware sites and check if the benchmark values from your hardware come close.
If that is not the case, then it might prove useful to buy hardware diagnostic software. Else I think you can take 'the leap of faith' and start using the system.
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I can't say for sure but I'm assuming it's not too good an idea to stress test an ssd. I say that simply because I've read that defragging them isn't a good idea (or even necessary), so stressing them like a normal drive probably isn't good either. But, I certainly don't know for sure.
I'll run the diagnostic tools and that will be enough for my curiousity.
Maybe if I start a bit of overclocking I'll do some relevant stress tests.
Shades, I've definitely gone beyond the the leap of faith stage. As mentioned before, the data is the important bit for me. I'm going to concentrate on that - the machine will work until it doesn't.
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Investing in diagnostic software does seem a bit overkill for your situation. And as the market for such software is limited, expect a high price for it as well.
-Shades
Wow! Do you do this stuff? Disk drive manufacturers provide diagnostics for free - for decades. Anyone who knows computers would know that. Better computer manufacturers provide comprehensive diagnostics also for free on the drive, on a provided CD, and on the web site.
BIOS does not do diagnostics. All BIOS (even in the original IBM PC) provided error codes. Error codes only report confronted problems. A diagnostic tests every function in a machine or subsystem - including many functions that the OS and BIOS might not use.
True computer users execute these diagnostics before failure happens. To learn how it works and how to load it. Diagnostics are also executed when a room is over 100 degree F. Did this on a Dell to discover a defective memory location in the video controller. An error that was detected before its warranty expired. And that would have otherwise resulted in video problems maybe years later. Another reason why diagnostics are something completely different and unknown to many computer users.
But most important, learn what exists and read what was already posted. Your story is why better manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics for free.
Why would anyone *invest* in diagnostics? Because so few know these diagnostics exist or what diagnostics really do.
So much time and labor in this thread could have been quickly eliminated by diagnostics. But so many do not even know what diagnostics are.
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I don't think the problem is that we don't know what diagnostics are (I've used software tools in the past, even though it may sound like I've never heard of such things). I'm not really bothered about eliminating the problem, I just wanted the machine to install Windows and work after that, which it is now doing.
My personal tone in this thread is to simply bitch and make a fuss, to moan about the store and blame someone other than myself for spending eight hours trying to install Windows.
If I really, really, wanted to know if the hardware was at fault I would run some checks immediately. I haven't and probably never will - not unless I detect some odd behaviour on the machine first.
You mentioned already that I've ignored the comments that provided good advice and that's true. But for me, this thread is just to let of steam and try and see who agrees and, at a push, maybe find someone that provides an instant 100% guaranteed solution to the original problem - which I thought I'd found when I discovered there was a "special" sata cable that had to be used.
Right now, I'm sticking with the "don't try and fix what isn't broken" method of computing. (I guess you can expect to see a fresh thread started by me in a week or two when I repeat all my complaints all over again because the machine has died.)
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I was under the impression that defrag wasn't advised on SSDs mainly because it was pretty pointless - no moving parts means there is no speed advantage after defragging so why bother.
Having never used an SSD I am not sure what actually comes as part of the package - do they have any internal diagnostics akin to SMART in conventional drives. If so reading that data should tell you if there is a likely problem with the device.
If you are worried about the SSD just run an in depth CHKDSK on the device - that will read and write to every location on the device and make sure it functions properly.
My own feelings are that if the replacement of a cable has fixed the symptoms then it was more than likely the cause of the problem in the first place and if you are still using the cable on another device without issue then it was probably just badly seated or just jogged loose in transit. Either way just get on with enjoying the new machine and don't agonise over the problem and miss out on the fun!!
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@nudone - I feel ya man - venting thread - been there after a lightening strike myself. :)
@westom - You really need to take into consideration that there is a lot of specialization in IT. Your skillset corner of the world is not the same as everybody elses. Soften your tone a bit and you'll get much better responses.
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That being said, I do have to agree that in this type of situation the best usage of $100 going forward is to hand it to an electrician to investigate how well ones dwelling is actually grounded. I did my own investigating back when (because I can), and did find a few things what needed attention.
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Defrag on SSDs is not recommended because, yes, it's unnecessary (no rotating platters, data continuity is less important), but also perhaps more importantly because it puts unnecessary read/write cycles onto the drive thus shortening its lifespan.
Regarding figuring out the actual root of the hardware issue, etc, etc. I think the important question is this: given the hardware that is of concern, would replacing it at some unknown point in the future at *your* expense be acceptable to you, or would you *rather* have the hardware repaired/replaced under warranty? If you prefer the warranty option, it behooves you to do as much diagnoses up-front as possible, to hopefully figure out if there really is a problem in any component and get it fixed on their dime. But if the cots of the hardware is not significant enough to overcome your inertia for testing and dealing with warranty support, then it's a perfectly valid choice to simply go with what works now, keep good backups, and deal with whatever problems arise later. Frankly I think that's what I'd do.
- Oshyan
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Good point, JavaJones. I'd not even thought about warranties; which also means I feel the same way as you. I'd prefer to just get on with using the machine and let it die naturally rather than start hitting it with a stick to see if there's something wrong.
More importantly, the 30" monitor has arrived and it's amazing. A dream come true. I've wanted one for years.
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More importantly, the 30" monitor has arrived and it's amazing. A dream come true. I've wanted one for years.
-nudone
veering off-topic - I'm curious :) what did you get?
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It's a HP ZR30W S-IPS
I saw the review in PC Pro magazine http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/monitors/361456/hp-zr30w/specifications last week and thought I'd just bite the bullet. The price seemed right and the overall opinions online by other reviewers are positive.
I bought an ex-demo model which cost £799.67 (full price is usually between £1000 - £1300 online). The screen has a two years warranty and has no defects.
At the moment, I'm still getting used to it. I'll be calibrating it a few times yet. All the reviews mention the vivid colours which need to be muted a bit but otherwise it's very, very good.
I'm used to sitting in front of a 24" EIZO monitor during the day, and in the evening in front of a budget priced Samsung 24" screen. The difference between them being so dramatic that I think the Samsung model should never have been allowed to go on sale (nor any other monitors that are genuninely painful to look at - they need a health warning attached).
Because I'm used to seeing the differences in quality between the two monitors, I did wonder if the new HP 30" would be impressively large but awful to stare at (the EIZO 30" is well over £2000 so I wondered if there was going to be a similar quality difference between low and high priced products).
Thankfully, the HP screen is perfect. Right now, it appears even better than my old EIZO monitor. The complete area of the screen appears very consistent in colour, brightness and contrast (I noticed very faint vertical bands on the EIZO but that might have been its age showing). The definition or sharpness is also consistent - I was worried about this as the cheap Samsung 24" I mentioned has areas on the screen that are very slightly "blurred" which I think causes eye strain when reading text (no surprise).
I'm pleased with the screen, almost ecstatic perhaps, as it didn't turn out to be a total waste of time - if it had been blurred or had any other slightly annoying feature about it I would be getting rid of it instantly.
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^ sounds really great, enjoy it :)
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OT:
It's a HP ZR30W S-IPS
-nudone
Ah, I got 2 ZR24W S-IPS screens (the smaller brother of the ZR30W) with my new system (connected through display-port (DP)) this week, and I'm just as enthusiastic about it as you are :D, coming from 19" 4:3 HP and 22" 16:10 Dell (dull?) monitors (they're all standing side by side for now and my desk is really crowded ;D).
It absorbed most of the budget for my new system (i7-2600, 16 GB, 80 GB SSD, 1TB HDD), but we have great discounts with HP, so it was 'doable' 8) (meaning: the budget request was eventually accepted by management)
These screens are really good, so awfully beautiful to look at!
Right now, it appears even better than my old EIZO monitor.-nudone
That's the age of the EIZO showing, as you already found out. We'll just have to see how long these screens keep their good image quality, but I guess next round of PC updates I'll be sticking to these 2 babies :-*
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The machine did not recognise the SSD today on first boot. Had to wiggle the SATA cables around. I'm wondering what to do about the machine, i.e. try to resolve cable issues or send the machine back and claim a refund.
I've made a new thread about that here: https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=27248.new#new where I'm asking for opinions on what to do. (I've made a new thread so that people ignoring this thread will see it. I need the opinions quickly as it will be to late tomorrow to send back under the 7 day refund policy.)
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When hard drives are not recognized during boot can mean several things. The first thing I try is to disable fast boot in the BIOS. Servers that I build always have this option disabled.
The next part is mainly about mechanical drives, but the concept behind it could be worth checking out.
Sometimes the BIOS isn't giving the hard disk enough time to spin up sufficiently and according to the BIOS it isn't there, while you do hear it spin. When booting the system for the second time the BIOS does recognize the drive and will go on to do its business.
Why a drive doesn't spin up sufficiently in the allotted time can be a lot of things, like a worn drive or power supply that is not supplying sufficient power to the drive (which happens the most in my situation over here).
Normally, a power supply has two 'rails' that supply +12volt, +5volt and GND with a certain amperage. What sometimes helps (again, in my situation over here in Paraguay) is switching one rail with the other.
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Thanks, Shades, but it's a solid state drive (so no spinning) :)
The strange thing is that this machine has been turned on and off everyday for the past four days and it worked fine each day. Today nothing had changed since yesterday when the machine was last used - it just simply couldn't find the SSD.
It did find the SSD after I disconnected two of my old hard drives that have been in the machine since Sunday (four days ago) and therefore they worked fine too (and still do work fine).
I have also now concluded that the SATA-6-1 socket on the motherboard is faulty. Using the SATA-6-2 socket does work and this is what I've been using to connect the SSD over the past few days.
I really don't care now. I've got a RMA number from the store and they know I'm bringing it back with the intention of claiming a full refund. Whether they find some issue to argue over and refuse the refund remains to be seen. Perhaps I could get away with just a motherboard replacement - but if the full refund is there, I'm taking it without a doubt.
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if you have to settle for a replacement, i'd insist on a replacement of both motherboard and ssd. and if they really want to convince you not to get a refund, tell them to upgrade you to a better model ssd or motherboard.
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tell them to upgrade you to a better model ssd or motherboard
-mouser
Is the reasoning behind that to avoid them not really replacing the parts or simply because you think these model numbers can't be trusted?
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My thought was two-fold:
1. Increases likelyhood that the problem will be solved by replacement parts. In case there is something wonky about the interaction of parts, or a particular run of hardware, etc. Getting different models will only increase chance of solving the problem -- and obviously you don't want to downgrade.
2. It seems like it's also fair for you to expect that if you are having to go through all of this inconvenience, and if they are trying to convince you not to demand a refund, the least they could do is upgrade your parts in order to increase the odds of solving the problem.
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Okay, good points. I will see what happens.