DonationCoder.com Forum
Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: nudone on April 20, 2011, 11:42 AM
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Does it matter, well, I suppose so. Am I surprised, not really, who would be these days...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/20/iphone-tracking-prompts-privacy-fears
It's a (Guardian) article about how mobile Apple devices are tracking and keeping records of your locations over several months. That's nice of them not to bother to ask first.
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That's as outrageous as it is typical. Some scary, privacy related stuff is going down these days.
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Mobile phone companies (or companies that provide mobile data plans to non-phone devices, etc.) need to track your location to provide you with service. I don't have a problem with that.
But they really need to implement some sort of data destruction policy so they don't store your private information indefinitely.
EDIT: Okay, I admit I didn't read the article before posting what I did above. The kind of tracking Apple seems to be doing is blatant and inexcusable, IMO.
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This is a fully documented feature on the bada platform:
http://developer.bada.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.osp.apireference.help/classOsp_1_1Social_1_1Lifelog.html
This class enables the browsing of the user's activity log data.
It can be a benefit for LBS. e.g. An application can then tell you where you spend most of your time, your transportation routes, which routes are fastest, etc.
The problem, as noted in other threads, is transparency.
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If I could, I would gladly live without a phone. Jobs would be in prison in my dictatorship until he could explain himself over this stunt. And his company would go broke paying all the customers he listened to. If he refused in any way, I could think of more creative ways to make sure billionaires learn to behave.
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If I could, I would gladly live without a phone. Jobs would be in prison in my dictatorship until he could explain himself over this stunt. And his company would go broke paying all the customers he listened to. If he refused in any way, I could think of more creative ways to make sure billionaires learn to behave.-zridling
Withdraw his entire worth in pennies, and make him eat every single one of them. Twice.
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If I could, I would gladly live without a phone. Jobs would be in prison in my dictatorship until he could explain himself over this stunt. And his company would go broke paying all the customers he listened to. If he refused in any way, I could think of more creative ways to make sure billionaires learn to behave.-zridling
Withdraw his entire worth in pennies, and make him eat every single one of them. Twice.
-f0dder
ahh f0dder, I see you're a fan of recycling . . . eeeuuuuuwwwww
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The s*** might really be hitting the fanboi's for Apple on this one - Senator questions Apple over iPhone tracking (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/04/senator-questions-apple-in-wake-of-ios-tracking-scandal.ars).
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It says that "Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device.-The Article
Are you F'ing Kidding Me??!? This rather implies an involuntary upload mechanism.
This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services.-The Article
Oh The Hell It Don't. What is the consistent night time location. Now look up the address to see who's house that is ... Yours! Not exactly a freaking mystery now is it?
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There's a fix (https://twitter.com/musclenerd/status/60950020664475648) available now (for jailbroken devices). Just thought it would be appropriate to mention this here since so many of you are obviously using iPhones. :P
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It says that "Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device.-The Article
Are you F'ing Kidding Me??!? This rather implies an involuntary upload mechanism.
This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services.-The Article
Oh The Hell It Don't. What is the consistent night time location. Now look up the address to see who's house that is ... Yours! Not exactly a freaking mystery now is it?
-Stoic Joker
Or use the phone data that's available that will personally identify you...
Privacy is an illusion.
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Just thought it would be appropriate to mention this here since so many of you are obviously using iPhones.
-nosh
Alright now, don't be starting any rumors ... iLife was banned from my universe long ago.
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Here's how Samsung treats the issue (from the developer tutorial on location based services):
(http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/7812/screenshot2011042224845.png)
Tutorial is here (http://static.bada.com/contents/tutorials/bada_SDK_1.2.0/badaTutorial.Locations.pdf) (PDF).
i.e. Explicit consent must be given by the user for each application, and only applications that are verified to have an acceptable privacy policy can even have access to those portions of the SDK.
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Oh I think Apple has grasped the issue of privacy just fine.
And now that they've grasped it, they're trying to drag it into the bushes and murder it. ;D
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Oh I think Apple has grasped the issue of privacy just fine.
And now that they've grasped it, they're trying to drag it into the bushes and murder it. ;D
-40hz
heheheh, good point.
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Oh I think Apple has grasped the issue of privacy just fine.
And now that they've grasped it, they're trying to drag it into the bushes and murder it. ;D
-40hz
heheheh, good point.
-nudone
Yepper, I'll sign that!
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Here's an update...
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/04/apple-iphone-tracking/
“Apple must be able to determine quickly and precisely where a device is located,” Apple said in its letter. “To do this, Apple maintains a secure database containing information regarding known locations of cell towers and Wi-Fi access points.”
Huh? A secure database for publicly available information, but an unencrypted database for private information?
Spin.
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The whole "anonymous upload" concept makes me laugh. Uh, we just got this data in from Mr or Ms X at IP 17.172.224.27.
On web forums one of my pet peeves are those sigs that load an image from a 3rd party server to get the IP of the viewer, which is dynamically inserted into the picture. Might seem harmless but I don't see it as any more harmless than those 1 pixel images embedded in your email to get you to download, thus revealing the IP of your machine. If the guy with the prank sig has his own server who knows what he's sending from it to me once he's gleaned my IP?
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/waffen/violent-smiley-006.gif)
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Ahem... Why don't you all just shut up, then bend over and take it...
To paraphrase this:
http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/whiskey-tango-foxtrot/46738-thoughts-on-the-iphone-tracking-beat-up
So, where are we now? Of course there is the obligatory "foam-at-the-mouth" demand for a congressional enquiry (is there any other way those guys can plot to get re-elected?) along with a variety of ill-informed ratcheting-up of the rhetoric on the blogosphere.
But, all-in-all, I think this will slowly fade as people continue to recognise the importance and rely upon the apps that are based on this service.
Commentary redacted due to being overly obscene and profane...
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I'm not surprised you felt the need to bite your tongue after reading that one Renegade.
The man does make an excellent case - "Some experts knew about this beforehand, also the media has been a bit emotive in it's reporting. These two things prove Apple did nothing wrong"
Flawless logic indeed.
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That "article" sounds more like a sympathizer's attempt at making a point.
Or to put it simply: If a forensics lab, thinks it's great idea ... You should be afraid, very (very) afraid.
Dig?
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I'm not surprised you felt the need to bite your tongue after reading that one Renegade.
The man does make an excellent case - "Some experts knew about this beforehand, also the media has been a bit emotive in it's reporting. These two things prove Apple did nothing wrong"
Flawless logic indeed.
-Eóin
It's just typical, irrational fanboy nonsense. He's so radically disconnected from reality... Sigh... :-\
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I can understand why you would need to track the CURRENT position of a phone. But the only reason for someone to keep track of your past position and keep it on a file is to track where you have been. Why would apple need that? And even if there where a valid reason, why keep it secret?
If I wanted to bet, I would say that Apple is selling the service of tracking iPhones. To who? From marketers all the way to government.
Suppose you want to make a union. And decided to make a secret reunion of workers so that the company does not fire the ones in the meeting. the company then knew that the meeting took place and where. Every atendant with an iPhone would be in danger of being fired (illegal, but companies can make any excuse to do so).
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Imagine you decide to excersise your first admentment rights (freedom of speech) and join an activity. If you have an iPhone, Uncle Sam now knows you where there and where you live. So next time you travel you get a special treatment by the TSA.
And how about if someone that happen to work at Apple is also a stalker. Great now the person knows every movement of you.
Many horrible uses for this, specially since its done behind your back.
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Suppose you want to make a union. And decided to make a secret reunion of workers so that the company does not fire the ones in the meeting. the company then knew that the meeting took place and where. Every atendant with an iPhone would be in danger of being fired (illegal, but companies can make any excuse to do so).
Not only that. But imagine if your current location and habitual hang-outs were sold to process servers and bill collectors!
(http://smileys.smilchat.net/emoticon/profession/loi-uniforme/facteur-2.gif)
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The latest Southpark is simply off-the-hook (VERY NSFW):
It reams on Apple a little bit. Not much, but a little. They really could have gone further than they did. Never the less, it's still very NSFW.
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Random Mac user funniness:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150178675611952&set=o.51127772446&type=1
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Well that used up a good bit of my morning (hehe), I liked this one:
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Hehehehe.
Absolutely.
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I found this one cute:
(http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/208062_608776964434_51303255_33040245_4975068_n.jpg)
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Just to redress the balance:
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Ooops... I kind of started some thread derailment there... anyways... back on track...
THESE ARE NOT THE DROIDS YOU ARE LOOKING FOR. MOVE ALONG...
Apple denies tracking iPhone users, but promises changes
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/384539/apple_denies_tracking_iphone_users_promises_changes/
Apple today denied that it tracks iPhone and iPad users, saying that "users are confused" about the issue.
In a statement posted on its Web site, Apple defended the practice, but admitted that there were bugs in its software that would be fixed "in the next few weeks" with an update to iOS, the mobile operating system that powers the iPhone and iPad.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA~!
Ahem... I believe that I had it right the first time... These are not the droids you are looking for...
From the horse's mouth:
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/04/27location_qa.html
3. Why is my iPhone logging my location?
The iPhone is not logging your location. Rather, it’s maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location
Huh? Then whence came the journey maps?
9. Does Apple currently provide any data collected from iPhones to third parties?
We provide anonymous crash logs from users that have opted in to third-party developers to help them debug their apps. Our iAds advertising system can use location as a factor in targeting ads. Location is not shared with any third party or ad unless the user explicitly approves giving the current location to the current ad (for example, to request the ad locate the Target store nearest them).
Their EULA says otherwise.
Spin. Spin. Spin.
It's possible that they are telling the truth. Remotely possible. But for a company with a consistent track record of treating their customers and developers with such utter contempt, I rather doubt it.
5. Can Apple locate me based on my geo-tagged Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data?
No. This data is sent to Apple in an anonymous and encrypted form. Apple cannot identify the source of this data.
Nonsense. If they want to, they can. All phones have unique identifiers that are readily available and personally identifying. Cell tower triangulation is accurate to within 100 m or so. Whether or not they use it is another matter. Can they? YES! Do they? I don't know. (It's encrypted anyways, so only Apple can know.) But saying they "cannot" is a black lie. Did they slip up and simply write that badly? Don't know. But it's still factually incorrect. (I'm nitpicking a bit, but Apple seems to like nitpicking. What's good for the goose and gander and all...)
I wish I knew the truth behind all of this.
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I wish I knew the truth behind all of this.-Renegade
Truth is they are auto-magically generating a log file with a complete disregard for the privacy of the person being logged. How they choose to try and justify said behavior is irrelevant ... The intention is clear enough.
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I'm surprised they don't try to market it as a feature, like some of those recent folks at Google:
"We track everything about you so that one day you won't even have to decide what you want! We'll know and we'll automatically have your iDevice purchase/display it for you!"
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they do claim that:
The location data that researchers are seeing on the iPhone is not the past or present location of the iPhone, but rather the locations of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers surrounding the iPhone’s location, which can be more than one hundred miles away from the iPhone.
which should be easy to check - and does not excuse the underhandedness of it all [edit] and probably still makes it fairly easy to track a person, if you wanted to [/edit]
(from Renegades 2nd link - "From the horse's mouth:" http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/04/27location_qa.html)
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@tomos
I'm not so sure about the truth of that. In #5 they are flat out lying (intentionally or unintentionally), so I find it hard to take anything they say at face value.
Reading that part again, I don't know if that's a half-truth either. But I'm not about to bother trying to check any of it. Got better things to do.
Still, I would be interested to read from someone that would actually do an impartial and clean investigation to find out exactly what is happening. Or at least up to the point of the Apple "black box".
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@tomos
I'm not so sure about the truth of that. -Renegade
me neither lol
Still, I would be interested to read from someone that would actually do an impartial and clean investigation to find out exactly what is happening. Or at least up to the point of the Apple "black box".
-Renegade
+1
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Just found out that not only the iPhone and the Android are tracking your location. The kindle does that too.
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51371
If you see in the log that is sent to amazon
"HDR Latitude=37.334167,HDR Longitude=-122.031113,"
Which is basically the position of the kindle at a given time.
Why are this companies doing that? What do they gain with tracking their customers positions? Unless they sell the information, I do not understand why they do this BS behind ones back.
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Probably like you said, sell the data on so ads can be targeted to you and your habits - or if they say they aren't doing that, then it is perhaps because they haven't got to that stage yet; in other words they are all gearing up for the time that they can do it
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I think they're just trying to get the jump on the Orwellian dark horse "Big Brother" position. First the souls of the user-base are collected, then the get delivered to the dark overlords for entertainment & consumption.
This is why they thrive on our hatred...
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Another problem with this tracking (specially since is kept in a file) is that a person can steal your phone and know where you work, where you live, at what times you are home, etc, etc, etc.
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Late to the party, but concerning Android...
Am I incorrect in believing that this "functionality" can be disabled via Home -> Menu -> Settings -> Location & security -> Unchecking "Use wireless networks" and "Use GPS satellites"? I realize that you can't use *anything* location-based at that point and that cripples lots of applications, but does that not completely negate this issue as far as Android goes..? :huh:
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I don't think so. The Android phone would still need to know your location to provide you with phone service. I'm not 100% sure about that though.
Maybe it would work if you enabled Airplane mode, which AFAIK completely disables all wireless communications on the device.
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don't think so. The Android phone would still need to know your location to provide you with phone service.-Deozaan
:huh: The "Phone" part of the phone only needs to know that a (totally ground based) cell tower is near enough for good signal. The tower's exact location isn't important, and the phones is completely irrelevant (to the phone).
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don't think so. The Android phone would still need to know your location to provide you with phone service.-Deozaan
:huh: The "Phone" part of the phone only needs to know that a (totally ground based) cell tower is near enough for good signal. The tower's exact location isn't important, and the phones is completely irrelevant (to the phone).
-Stoic Joker
Yeah I guess I was a bit unclear on what I meant.
As I understand it, any cell phone looks for nearby cell towers in an attempt to get the strongest signal, and usually there are enough towers within range to triangulate your position. So the phone company would be able to know your position whether you had GPS/Wifi enabled or not.
In other words, disabling those two options wreckedcarzz mentioned might keep phone apps from getting access to your location details, but your service provider would still know (approximately) where you are as long as your phone has service.