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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: mouser on December 21, 2012, 11:24 AM
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This is no doubt quite exaggerated for effect, but I can't say I really disagree with any of the points being made:
I've said it many timed before but I like to repeat it so I get credit when someone finally writes a book explaining how I was right -- but the *only* rational explanation for the decisions Microsoft makes is that it has been infiltrated at the highest levels by saboteurs who are trying to cause the company to fail.
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Hmm...well...it's all for the better supposedly. And they say they come in peace...
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Okay 10 minutes in and this really just sounds like a bunch of verbal shenanigans. The guy's biggest complaint so far is basically that he is to stupid to use a touch interface. Seriously?!? Who in their right mind would confuse swipe with cursor movement by trying to touch-pad a touch screen?? The cursor jumps to where ever you put your finger ... Which is exactly how all of them work. If he wants to attach that aspect of user interaction then Droid and iWord suck just as bad if you're intent on being a clumsy assed obtuse retard.
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I like the energy in that video :D
That said, I still feel that a well designed service pack could do wonders for Win 8. If they put options to effectively disable the Metro stuff I'd probably go for it.
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My wife has Win8 on her computer/s and she actually likes it, even brags about it. Of course, my old pissy self just doesn't get it. I was confounded and just gave up. I only hope Microsoft is furiously working on Win9 to get users back. But no business is going to gamble on this. It's insanely painful (for me) to use.
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Seriously?
He gives himself a lot of credit for investing serious time in reviewing those Operating systems in the early 2000's--I assure you he did not apply the same effort this time around or his conclusions would have been far less entertaining. This guy is either a complete idiot or an opportunistic troll. I'm betting it's largely the later.
I mean, come on -- less user friendly than DOSS?
You can hate Windows 8 all you want. . . some people really miss the start menu. But this is just inflammatory BS.
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I like the energy in that video :D
That said, I still feel that a well designed service pack could do wonders for Win 8. If they put options to effectively disable the Metro stuff I'd probably go for it.
-Nod5
+1.
Beneath the hood it's quite nice. I don't even have a problem with a flat look. (I actually prefer it. All my personal Nix boxes are set up with minimalist themes and flat icons.)
Just give us the option to permanently disable Metro - and ditch all the cloud nonsense they try to steer you into during the installation - and I'd recommend it without hesitation.
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Finished the video and am still completely unimpressed. The guy is whining about aspects of every touch based interface ever designed and blaming it on Windows 8. Which is a total load of crap.
Lack if UI consistency? Bull Shit. If it's on the screen it's click-able there is no fluffy decorations. Now Apple's iWorld? Absolute Zero consistency in control design let alone application design. They just let the artsy fartsy crowd go flat out ape shit creating anything that looked like anything that did anything.
The start button is and has always been tied to the Windows key ... That's why it not a standard 102 key keyboard. And the Windows key still does exactly what it always did even on a (Surface) tablet. So what's with all the simpering and whining?
Hey couldn't find Control Panel. Really?!? I usually just hit the Win key, type control and (hit enter) am there. Vista/7/8 ...Still works the same way. Unless you're either being intentionally obtuse, grew up in a cave.
OMFG How does anybody close an application?!?!? Derp! Alt + F4 ... Just like since the (9x) beginning of friggin time.
He should have skipped trying to be funny and just stuck to making a concise point ... at least the video would have been a much shorter waste of time.
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Update: I may have been wrong, he might not be an opportunistic troll. He might be a complete idiot. He's ranting because windows 8 didn't come with a windows key sticker sticker on the bottom of the laptop and there's no control panel icon on the desktop.
I've said it many timed before but I like to repeat it so I get credit when someone finally writes a book explaining how I was right -- but the *only* rational explanation for the decisions Microsoft makes is that it has been infiltrated at the highest levels by saboteurs who are trying to cause the company to fail.
-mouser
I'm disappointed that you'd go so far as to say that. You've used the OS for how many minutes and you think it's the end of Microsoft? Nah, just the end of an era -- What are you going to do when Windows 9 is more Windows 8 than Windows 8 is?
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I hear what you guys are saying, but I stand by my original point:
All of these critiques are extreme exaggerated hyperbole designed to get them page views or whatever.
BUT, having said that -- I still can't help but agree that everything they are pointing out is in fact a user interface design flaw that represents a step backward.
I'm not saying that these flaws are the end of the world, but i am extremely perplexed at these things that seem like clear flaws to me.
Of course I could be wrong -- these could be masterful paradigm shifts in user interface design, but I don't see it.
At the end of the video he quotes a user interface pro (Budiu) making a comment that seemed on point:
"Windows 8 is optimized for content consumption rather than content production and multitasking. Whereas content consumption can easily be done on other media (tablets and phones), production and multitasking are still best suited for PCs. Windows 8 appears to ignore that."
More from her: here (http://blog.laptopmag.com/usability-expert-windows-8-on-pcs-is-confusing-a-cognitive-burden).
I think that's a perceptive observation about this new user interface. It sacrifices desktop usability and content creation in favor of content consumption on a tablet. That's not so great if you want to use a desktop as a desktop.
I guess from my perspective, Windows 8 feels like a step in the wrong direction for desktops. I haven't heard or seen anything that would change my mind about that yet.
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Update: I may have been wrong, he might not be an opportunistic troll. He might be a complete idiot. He's ranting because windows 8 didn't come with a windows key sticker sticker on the bottom of the laptop and there's no control panel icon on the desktop.-allen
Damn Straight! I can't count the number of machines I've seen that had missing or unreadable COA labels. But MS hardware keying the OS so it'll just install without bothering folks with a secret code ... Those bastards! :D
...Did anyone think to ask why it took the guy to think of the word 'Recovery'? (Hay call me crazy, but...) Since it's been called a recovery disk for over a decade now?
I'm voting Complete Idiot on this one. ;)
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Your original statement kind of was saying that these flaws are the end of the world. I'll chock it up to exaggerated hyperbole.
I really don't think it's a step backward. Strictly desktop speaking, maybe--though I'd argue it's more a side step than forward or backward step. But here's the thing: the idea of desktop-only has been going out of style for a while, the nerd hunched over his computer in his basement is a dying breed. This is a tremendous step forward for what is actually a growing market: tablets, phones-- a multi-screen ecosystem.
What sucks is that stupid people like him are making statements that just aren't true -- and other are buying it, and then repeating it like it's true. Some of this shit is exaggeration, other things are just outright false. "Can't have multiple windows open at the same time" -- not only is that not true for Windows 8, it's not even true for the pure-metro RT tablets.
"I don't like Windows 8" is a perfectly acceptable position. "Windows 8 can't do something Windows 7 can" absolutely FALSE every time.
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"Windows 8 is optimized for content consumption rather than content production and multitasking. Whereas content consumption can easily be done on other media (tablets and phones), production and multitasking are still best suited for PCs. Windows 8 appears to ignore that."
More from her: here (http://blog.laptopmag.com/usability-expert-windows-8-on-pcs-is-confusing-a-cognitive-burden).
I think that's a perceptive observation about this new user interface. It sacrifices desktop usability and content creation in favor of content consumption on a tablet. That's not so great if you want to use a desktop as a desktop.
-mouser
Bingo. Spot on! :Thmbsup:
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Beneath the hood it's quite nice. I don't even have a problem with a flat look. (I actually prefer it. All my personal Nix boxes are set up with minimalist themes and flat icons.)
Just give us the option to permanently disable Metro - and ditch all the cloud nonsense they try to steer you into during the installation - and I'd recommend it without hesitation.
-40hz
Yeah, the flat more minimal look is great, functional. If Metro was removed then it would basically be Win7 plus. I wish Microsoft would have taken the boatload of money likely spent on Metro and instead given it all to... Mouser! MS should have simply brought in FARR and used it as start menu replacement.
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I don't have any experience with touch screen/smart phone/tablet. But from everything I've read on forums the thing should have been released as an OS for the above type of devices. Not for Desktop PCs. Then the controversy would be non-existent. Any technical advances for the desktop could just have been included in W7 SP2.
Hmmmm, controversy >= free publicity? Look how they survived Vista!!! They must have direct electronic transfer from everyone's Swiss Bank Accounts to draw on. Evidently there ain't no tip to the iceberg. Just just iz de iceberg period.
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"I don't like Windows 8" is a perfectly acceptable position. "Windows 8 can't do something Windows 7 can" absolutely FALSE every time.
-allen
Bing! :Thmbsup:
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"I don't like Windows 8" is a perfectly acceptable position. "Windows 8 can't do something Windows 7 can" absolutely FALSE every time.
-allen
Bing! :Thmbsup:
-wraith808
+1
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Did anyone get the major version number? It's probably still 6 in reality anyway. :)
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"I don't like Windows 8" is a perfectly acceptable position. "Windows 8 can't do something Windows 7 can" absolutely FALSE every time.
-allen
I think the point is not what Windows 8 can't do; it's been proven it can do what Windows 7 does and lots more. The points are [1] for the desktop user it's clearly not so easy/natural to reach the usability one took for granted in Windows 7 and [2] since the desktop user can't readily profit from the Modern/Touch new material (the "lots more" part), why does the OS make it so hard for the said user to circumvent the UI he's [quite possibly] not interested in?
Making it hard for the user to go past what he's not interested in should be considered bad design EVERY time. Even Clippy one could get rid of, for crissakes.
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wow, this video has made people's water boil! And this to such a degree that they are making the exact same fault, they are accusing him of doing! I am really not impressed. But at this low level there is clearly no reason to even try to reason. But of course, just like the video guy I have merely tried 8 Metro for half an hour in a shop, so... guess what? I am on his side! I never managed to do anything with Windows 8 Metro; it was useless to me. Useless.
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That (the original post) is a BRILLIANT summary video of Windows 8 first impressions! Yes he uses hyperbole and it is made to entertain but I actually think his analysis is pretty spot on. OK you can get used to things but USABILTY should be getting better - not having to work on getting used to things!
(By the way the comments someone made earlier about touch interface is a misunderstanding - he wasn't using a touch interface - he was using a mouse - in the form of a touch pad - but some dufus included gestures on the mouse pad that just don';t belong there!)
I just installed Pro on my laptop and Office 2013 (WTF - why is it so HIDEOUSLY UGLY).
Everything requires a lot more clicks - even opening Word 2013 requires an extra click because it doesn't even open with a blank document!
The bloody Metro interface just keeps flipping up all the time when you are doing other things.
I am just so glad I kept an image backup of Windows 7 - I have a feeling it will either be used before too long or the laptop will be in pieces on my drive with a large hole in the window!
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I wish Microsoft would have taken the boatload of money likely spent on Metro and instead given it all to... Mouser! MS should have simply brought in FARR and used it as start menu replacement.
-Nod5
That is just ... terrifying! Because it might just work!
(Some restrictions apply. I have never tried FARR.)
But it's still funny.
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I wish Microsoft would have taken the boatload of money likely spent on Metro and instead given it all to... Mouser! MS should have simply brought in FARR and used it as start menu replacement.
-Nod5
That is just ... terrifying! Because it might just work!
(Some restrictions apply. I have never tried FARR.)
But it's still funny.
-TaoPhoenix
Not to mention all the puns it would generate. Like FARR-fig-newton,Lew-is-FARR-akan, FARR-a-fawcett etc..
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I just came across this in a newsletter today. Thought it would bring a little light to the subject....or not. lol
Consumer Reports makes case for Windows 7 PCs
Windows 7 may be the better choice as a PC operating system on new systems than the just-released Windows 8, Consumer Reports magazine said this week.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2022900/consumer-reports-makes-case-for-windows-7-pcs.html
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I just came across this in a newsletter today. Thought it would bring a little light to the subject....or not. lol
Consumer Reports makes case for Windows 7 PCs
Windows 7 may be the better choice as a PC operating system on new systems than the just-released Windows 8, Consumer Reports magazine said this week.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2022900/consumer-reports-makes-case-for-windows-7-pcs.html
-Tinman57
Comments for the article were rather a rather sad lot of "experts" recommending that secure boot be turned off/removed/banned from existence. I'm sure malware authors world wide are giggling their asses off watching that bit of (mindblowingly stupid) advice spread across the land. As if it really that hard to switch the boot order for a diagnostic boot.
Anybody remember the (good old...) Win9x days when people called in constantly with "unbootable systems" because they left a blank CD in the drive? ...Bout the 3rd time you got that call from client X you switched the boot order on their machine to skip the optical drive...didn't ya? Now the diagnostic CD you put in won't boot... What's changed exactly?
Another favorite of mine is to reflexively encrypt everything. Recovery disk time ... Oh wait the drive is encrypted so it's pointless to boot externally as the data will still be unaccessible. Which means we need a boot menu why? :-\
A year or so ago there was panic in the industry about a new breed of virus that could actually infect the hardware. People screamed about wanting the hardware protected properly (...the new version of properly that is).
Well now they have exactly that.
And they're pissed off about it.
That's like wanting a glass of water, getting a drink, and then protesting the merciless killing of your thirst.
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Thanks for the link to the very well done video. If true, the (un)usability points made (e.g. mystery-meat navigation, empty settings page, etc.) are unforgivable. I am still running XP on my main box but it looks like I'll be migrating to Linux sooner rather than later. In the meantime its probably time to pick up a retail version of Win7Pro while its still available.
I blame Apple (where design, look and feel trump power and functionality - Who needs a right mouse button when having just one is so... elegant?). Microsoft has drunk (drank? drunken? dranken?) their cool aid. Funny, I feel the same way as the video author (unbelievably frustrated) whenever I have to sit down and get something done on a Mac. Where is the right click context menu anyway?
Mouse? We don't need no stinking mouse! (or keyboard.)
No Win8/Metro in my near future. But then again, I'm not the guy in their marketing targets. I'd rather have a VT-100 connected to a 64KB PDP-11 with 8" floppies and a 10MB Winchester hard disk running RT-11 or RSX! (Well, not really, but just about!) Yeah, I know - I need to join the 21st century. Although I do feel like Abe Simpson sometimes, it appears that the lowest common denominator truly is getting lower and lower.
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I'll simply say I'm still waiting for the Next Evolution for context. Win8 caught my psing notice for being among the most aggressively hyped editions ever. I don't like "blind walls" of the future.
So by Win 9 (Win Blue? I saw an article on that!) (which will also be hyped), at least we'll have a bit more context to work with.
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Ok. In the spirit of fairness I just completed another week of having Win 8 on it's very own laptop - and using it as much as possible.
It still doesn't work for me. YMMV. In my case it's back to using Win7/Linux until further notice.
I guess I can always run Win8 on a VM should I ever need it. 8)
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Looking at the video again I do agree with a lot of it but two things to point out:
1) He wasn't using the RTM version - it is the consumer preview I think so it wasn't actually finished.
2) The problems with mouse pad gestures are probably not MS fault - they are part of the driver software for the mouse pad he is using. My older mouse pad doesn't do what he experienced.
There is still much, IMHO, that makes Win 8 unproductive for end users and intensley frustrating to use and much of what he says still applies.
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The video was annoying - rhetoric as well as voice. He also obviously tries to cash-in on the ZeroPunctuation (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation) style (colors, graphics, hyperbole) - but while it works wonderfully for Yahtzee and is a fine way to review games, it makes me want to smack the Boyko dude in the face.
He claims he's spent time with a bunch of other operating systems, even Linux back in the days... so, like, he did no RTFM'ing or googling or anything for any of those? Then he sits down with Win8, does no RTFM'ing (a few minutes on google would have solved any of this problems), and apparently doesn't even apply prior Windows knowledge (like Alt+F4)? Come on.
I'm not sure if it's plain stupidity or pageview-bleargh. I'd say a healthy dose of both.
Win8 still going strong on my work laptop, btw, and I'm hardly ever seeing Metro pop up.
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The video was annoying - rhetoric as well as voice. He also obviously tries to cash-in on the ZeroPunctuation (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation) style (colors, graphics, hyperbole) - but while it works wonderfully for Yahtzee and is a fine way to review games, it makes me want to smack the Boyko dude in the face.
He claims he's spent time with a bunch of other operating systems, even Linux back in the days... so, like, he did no RTFM'ing or googling or anything for any of those? Then he sits down with Win8, does no RTFM'ing (a few minutes on google would have solved any of this problems), and apparently doesn't even apply prior Windows knowledge (like Alt+F4)? Come on.
I'm not sure if it's plain stupidity or pageview-bleargh. I'd say a healthy dose of both.
Win8 still going strong on my work laptop, btw, and I'm hardly ever seeing Metro pop up.
-f0dder
Pretty on target F0dder. My early impression without having used it is that there are certainly some new and probably annoying wrinkles, "the style is the message". The word-per-min count is really high, and that only works for two things - inspiring excitement from a brilliant presentation or ... high pressure agenda-sales. After a few days since this thread was posted, with some time to think, I'd say now I'd prefer a slower, FAR more balanced presentation with a slant like "okay, for those of you who are used to your desktop, you do this-andthis-andthis-andthis and you get back to something mostly resembling what you are used to."
But none of that may even matter, which makes it all worse. Some time back there was a quick article about "Windows Blue" (aka Windows 8.1 / 9 / SP1) which might in fact fix a lot of things. So there's little worse than getting dragged into a "topical rant" which might be old hat by July.