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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: Josh on February 19, 2008, 06:35 AM
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Thats right folks, Toshiba has officially announced that HD-DVD is now dead. It will cease production and marketting of its format due to several large studios and retailers switching to blu-ray. Will Toshiba switch to the Blu-Ray Alliance (BRA)? According to them, no, but we would hope so so that we can help spur the development of this superior format.
On that note, a moment of silence for all the unfortunate consumers who ended up with a now antiquated HD-DVD Player.....
Source URL (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/official-hd-dvd-dead-and-buried-format-war-is-over/)
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That war didn't last long.
The URL doesn't seem to click for me so here it is also (http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/19/official-hd-dvd-dead-and-buried-format-war-is-over/).
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On that note, a moment of silence for all the unfortunate consumers who ended up with a now antiquated HD-DVD Player.....
-Josh
It makes a good upscaling DVD player, anyway. And those who bite have the money to buy a Blu Ray player.
Well, now let's take a seat and wait for the outcome of the DVD vs. Blu Ray war (minimum: two years before a Blu Ray reader is affordable)
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2 years? I think in under 6 months we will see afforable blu ray players in the standalone model.
Heck, just look at this $150 US PC model. Others are sure to follow.
$150 US Blu-ray drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106227)
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This is really good news!
I'm glad it's over. Too bad i'm about to buy a laptop, this looks like the worst time ever to buy a toshibe laptop (since they still are all packed with hd-dvd!)
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Congrats on 3100 posts jgp ;-)
But yes, I would hope that toshiba joins the Blu-ray alliance so we can further spur development of this new format. I, for one, can't wait for a new profile 2.0 compatible player to be released so that I may purchase one.
btw: check out this video
NSFW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWfmRdOmJ0)
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On that note, a moment of silence for all the unfortunate consumers who ended up with a now antiquated HD-DVD Player.....
-Josh
No! Wait! It's only a flesh wound.
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2 years? I think in under 6 months we will see afforable blu ray players in the standalone model.
Heck, just look at this $150 US PC model. Others are sure to follow.
-Josh
:o, but that unit was more than $300 not too long ago... anyway, Blu Ray units are still around 220 € around here, and discs are not exactly affordable nor available.
But yes, I would hope that toshiba joins the Blu-ray alliance so we can further spur development of this new format. I, for one, can't wait for a new profile 2.0 compatible player to be released so that I may purchase one.
-Josh
Sony's trojan horse already supports the 2.0 specification. Clever guys.
No! Wait! It's only a flesh wound.
-BigJim
You bought a HD DVD player?
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I guess this sweet for Sony, after having lost the Betamax vs. VHS format war...
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I'm not sure how less competition will make prices drop but we'll see how it goes. I'll just stay with DVD. I don't have a LCD/plasma tv, its CRT widescreen 28 inch without surround sound or cinema home entertainment system. To me it doesn't make any sense to spend more on this setup while there is nothing on tv haha. Movies are good though.
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I'm not sure how less competition will make prices drop but we'll see how it goes.
-justice
My thoughts exactly. This whole format war was a media and blog circus... nothing more. As far as the better format winning, that's a matter of discussion- larger capacity does not necessarily make a better format. HD DVD was actually more consumer friendly. The only reason there was any impetus for a single format was the exclusivity deals... I prefer no exclusivity- let each consumer decide as he will.
And as far as having a useless player, in my case the only reason I bought was because it made good sense- I needed a DVD player, and getting a good upscaling player for $100 with 11 free hd dvds isn't exactly a loss. Let's just hope with no reason to keep backwards compatibility, BR Profile 2.0 and on are backwards compatible, or many more people will be stuck with tech that they cant use. And if you think that's not going to happen, look at Sony's track record...
http://gizmodo.com/346689/why-i-wish-hd-dvd-had-won-the-format-that-loved-me
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I honestly think the BRA is going to be smart and make profile 2.0 and on backwards compatible. Yes, there is no reason to do so, but not doing so would be like shooting yourself in the foot. They made the mistake with the 1.0/1.1->2.0 mess, but I think they will fix this in the future.
HD-DVD was more consumer friendly in that it didnt have as strict of requirements for the content protection (HDCP), however, it was still there. Blu-ray, aside from having the space and bandwidth advantage, does have far more as far as interactivity goes (The Blu-Java layer). The fact that you can now store uncompressed (or lossless) audio tracks on the disc is an obvious plus. The picture is readily expandable should something beyond 1080P ever come into play in the near future. In the end, I honestly feel that while less consumer friendly, blu-ray is the better choice.
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More consumer friendly by way of features and updates also; I just plugged my player into my router and it updated all on its own. And as far as interactivity, no... HD DVD as it stands has *much* more in the way of interactivity... that's never been disputed. And shooting themselves in the foot? Ummm... you do know there's no other alternative for HD media now, right? And that HD has almost zero market penetration? Even now, most people that I know that are looking into buying into Blu-ray are waiting for profile 2.0...
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You realize that DVD had this exact same startup right? HD is the next revolution considering HD TV's are becoming more and more common. If not for just the standard 720P (Not everyone can afford 1080p). I think more of the future bluray manufacturers are going to realize that firmware upgrades are something they should put into their players. Look how successful the PS3 was with it. I would love to be able to upgrade my player as new features are added. Heck, the DVD player I own (Oppo DV-981HD) is one of the few to take on this aspect. I've been able to upgrade the XviD playback capability when the new version was put out. This is the way of future, no arguing with you there. However, Blu-ray has already taken advantage of its interactivity layer. HD-DVD did not. Many of the HD-DVD discs I trialed were simply a menu that had some motion to it, no interactivity beyond that. Blu-ray on the other hand has the whole BD-Java system which has provided quite a bit of fun and interactivity. Check out Fifth Element BRD. Its a classic example of what BD can do and thats not even the best of its feature-set.
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Ummm... did you look at the article comparing the exact same movies on Blu-Ray and HD DVD? HD DVD was doing that from the beginning... Look at the article; they compare HDDVD and BR versions of 300 and Harry Potter side by side. Hard to argue with that...
And DVD had what exact same startup? The point I was making is that there is no alternative to BR, and no market penetration, so they have no incentive to make it backwards compatible if there are any problems with doing so.
But this whole thing was a circus from beginning to end. As you can see from that article, several releases were on both formats, and there was no reason to stop it and deny consumers choice. You like BR, I like HDDVD... why not let us choose? Exclusivity sucks... companies buying the win instead of catering to the consumers to win... don't like it on consoles, and I don't like it in media.
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wraith: There was no choice when it came time for DVD if I remember correctly. Exclusivity didn't cause a problem for DVD to be adopted fairly quickly. I agree, it does suck that both couldn't exist simultaneously. The problem was that dual format players were twice the cost, and rightfully so, and as such people were forced to choose a format based on which studios supported which movies. Choice, in this aspect, would have been the death knoll for both formats. With major studios releasing exclusively to each format, it didnt help either format.
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I'm not talking about adoption:
The point I was making is that there is no alternative to BR, and no market penetration, so they have no incentive to make it backwards compatible if there are any problems with doing so.
Note the emphasis... that's what I was talking about market penetration in regards to.
And I don't think that dual-format players were the way to go (though that worked in regards to the +R/-R battles), but removing the exclusivity. BRA paid $500 million for Warner to stick it to HD-DVD. That's not a fight based on merits, but on restricting content. Since it's an association people don't jump on the anti-competitive bandwagon as they do if a company does the same thing- but in the end, they used the same sort of practices that M$ is accused of to win. That just sits badly with me. Win on the merits of your solutions, not the depth of your pockets...
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OK, Backwards compatibility. What sense would it make for a modern company to not ensure backwards compatibility? I have a feeling that once profile 2.0 starts to make it mainstream in BRD players, we will see that all future players will remain compatible in the future. I just dont see an alliance the size of BRA making this sort of mistake.
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We've seen it recently in the console wars. We've seen it recently in the profile 1.0->1.1 update. Who can attest to how they think? Especially with such a small install base? Most of the BR players out there are PS3s. They can be updated. If there are problems with the features in 1.1 players, it would make sense to drop it ... especially with no competition.
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Profile 1.0 and 1.1 will still be compatible with 2.0 discs, you just wont get the network content
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Wow, Sony actually won a format battle! When was the last time that happened?
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Profile 1.0 and 1.1 will still be compatible with 2.0 discs, you just wont get the network content
-Josh
Well, I hope so.. .from all I've seen, they still haven't said. But I'm neither holding my breath nor jumping in... I'll wait until it's out then re-evaluate.
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I'm not sure how less competition will make prices drop but we'll see how it goes. -justice
Economy of scale, the number of competing manufacturers of BR machines plus increased adoption will push the prices down. Heck you can buy Pioneer DL DVD burners now for under $30 - remember how much DVD-ROM drives were in the early days?
I'll just stay with DVD.
I feel the same, and lots of people around the internet seem to feel the same too. As far as I can see most people have no need to upgrade as the difference in sound and picture on most home systems is not worth the extra cost. Don't forget most people don't have a HiFi system that can distinguish between DVD quality sound and 128 bit MP3, and not everyone wants a room dominated by 60 inch monster TVs. Mine is a 32 inch CRT beast and to me that seemed ridiculously large when it arrived (and still dominates my main living space) and I have no intention shelling out for a new TV any time soon.
However, like VHS I think we will all be forces to BluRay within 3 years as the studios will stop producing standard DVD product. Try buying anything on VHS now - and VHS decks are getting pretty rare. Also as TVs need to be replaced it will become increasingly rare to have SCART sockets and RF inputs so older VHS and DVD equipment will not be usable with the new TVs (although I suppose some enterprising people will produce breakout box interfaces for a while).
My worry is how long will BluRay machines maintain backward compatibility with standard DVD format. There is no technical reason why that should not be maintained as long as the disc size remains constant but there is going to be money grabbing studio pressure to produce machines that will force people to go out and rebuild their libraries again!
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I heard they said when the audio-cd arrived that prices would drop and they never did (at least in europe), i'm not sure about DVDs. Are they still just as expensive (new release) as when they were introduced? The players will probably become cheaper but usually there's a comon price point for the media itself. That was my perception.
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DVDs in the UK are generally reduced by 40%+ on the day of release if you buy online at the right shops. List price is usually £20 but I rarely see new DVDs over £12-£13 on the day of release and within six months they are often at under £8.
Doesn't esp. apply in the high street shops though.
It's stupid though that I can often buy titles earlier and cheaper (even including postage) from the US.
The EU has also made it illegal now for EU sellers to stock US imports of CDs - which is really annoying as most US titles are identical and about 50% of the EU price.
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I really never cared about the format war much; as it stands, about the only thing I had vested in it was a preference to the utilitarian, function over form name "HD DVD".
Things that benefit the absolute most from HD, in my opinion, are video games and programming on television -- Discovery Channel, Animal Planet, Travel Channel. I don't really enjoy a movie any more than I would have just because now, I can see his makeup -- actually, the few times I saw Bluray in action, I hated it. I don't *want* the actors to look like stage actors in makeup! Give me 1970's sci-fi space opera film grain any day. But that's just a matter of preference.
For me, the reality of it is that I love watching movies but hate DVD's -- and that loathing is sure to extend to BluRay. I find that there are precious few I actually will re-watch frequently enough to justify the cost of the media and the space it occupies thereafter. And this is all assuming neither my son nor dog get their hands on (and ruin) it.
I prefer to rent -- either from a video rental place or just snag it on PPV. At 2-5 dollars, I'd have to watch the movie 4-10 times ( depending on price v. rental fee, of course). With the exception of a handful of real favorites, I'm unlikely to watch the same movie more than once in 2-3 years. Increase the price, now, with a new storage/playback medium, and the rental becomes all the more attractive.
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A lot of people are saying that this mentality is the reason that Microsoft didn't get more involved in the war... it didn't really care if HD DVD failed. It was looking to HD streaming downloads, and the rumour is that they are going to announce a partnership with Netflix to do something like that in the next few days. My take on the whole thing is if we're streaming it anyway, I'd rather just do something like on demand. Pay an amount a month to have access to a whole catalog of movies over cable. It seems that most of the time that the internet connection is down, the cable connection stays up, and the act of streaming is more seamless...
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YES!
I'm glad Blu-ray won! I'm really only concerned about buying a burner to make backups, and the extra storage on Blu-ray is exactly what I wanted.
I'll now start actually looking to purchase one...
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Just because Blu-Ray is the format winner that doesn't mean that Sony is the winner.
From Kotaku.com (http://kotaku.com/359010/hd-dvd-death-doesnt-necessarily-mean-sony-win):
There are 176 companies in the Blu-ray Disc Association, including Sony competitors Samsung and Panasonic. They're not necessarily buddies! They're competing. This is business, not summer camp!
Interesting factoid: Before Sony released the PS3, HD DVD occupied 64 percent of HD format sales, and now Blu-ray accounts for 65 percent. The ironic bit: While Sony built up big Blu-ray support with the PS3, it doesn't solely own the technology. Sony must split royalties with other members of the Blu-ray association like Samsung and Panasonic — the same members Sony is battling with for market share!
Give me 1970's sci-fi space opera film grain any day. But that's just a matter of preference.
-allen
Here you go: Flash Gordon (http://imdb.com/title/tt0080745/) (1980)
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Sorry, I have to...
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From Tira Ecol (http://en.tiraecol.net/modules/comic/)
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Hey, a Spanish webcomic! Bookmarked!
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And... to all the people who *insisted* that this would be good for prices...
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/36740/113/
... I guess we can throw this in the same file that said that the Iraq war would be good for gas prices?