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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: brotherS on January 17, 2011, 06:26 AM
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Hi,
I'm looking for a new 15" TFT laptop and with roughly 105282443 different models on the market, I need your help!
- what I need it for: web, office, DVD watching (no gaming, no video editing)
- ~15" TFT (I think I have 15.6" now)
- not sure if I need a LED display, I mostly use an external TFT anyway
- I really dislike those reflecting displays (I forgot what it's called)
- no idea what CPU I should aim for (my current laptop has a Pentium Dual T2330 @ 1.60 GHz, and with Vista it sometimes feels a bit sluggish)
- I'd like Windows 7, I'm not open to Linux, Apple or whatever
- lots of RAM would be good since I love to run TONS of programs at the same time (got 4 GB now)
- I'm considering one with a ~120 GB SSD drive (because of speed, energy, noise, and heat)
- I like cool and quiet computers, and while my ex gf's laptop was both of that, mine is heating up a lot more, and is thus (thanks to the fan) not as quiet.
- the fan should run continuously if needed, not "on/off/on/off/..." like in some newer models (I think it was the cheaper DELL models and some other makes)
- battery life is not so important, as I found I rarely use it where there's no plug, but I like to be able to take it along when I travel or visit someone
- weight is not important
- a price tag of up to $1000 would be ok, less than that perfect (you might be able to convince me to spend more, but I'd really prefer not to)
None of the laptops I saw being advertised over the last months came with a SSD drive, would I need to have this one custom-built? Or is there something out there that's a fit?
Any pointers or feedback welcome!
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None of the laptops I saw being advertised over the last months came with a SSD drive, would I need to have this one custom-built? Or is there something out there that's a fit?
Any pointers or feedback welcome!
-brotherS
You should be able to install one yourself fairly easily depending on the laptop you get. The usual way most people do it is to is to purchase a caddy adapter that holds the SSD. With this arrangement, the SSD replaces the optical drive. Since you want to watch DVDs. that's not going to be a workable solution for you.
However, you can also replace the HD with an SSD if you can't find a laptop that comes with one. The procedure is straightforward provided the contents of your harddrive don't exceed the capacity of your SSD. If they do, you will need to do some file pruning and bakup before you can switch over.
Here's the steps:
- image the laptop's harddrive
- remove the HD
- install the SSD
- copy back the harddrive image to the SSD
That's it!
If it's a new machine, and it ships with a system recovery/reinstallation DVD (or let's you make one) the project gets even easier. In this case there's nothing to backup or clone because you haven't used the PC yet. In this case:
- remove theHD
- install the SSD
- install the factory OS and applications from the OEM recovery DVD
Get yourself an external enclosure for the HD and you can put it to use as a backup device.
Some companies offer kits that contain everything (external enclosure for the old harddrive, cloning software, etc.) that you'll need to do this easily. But they add expense to an already expensive component, so it may not be worth it to you to buy a complete kit. You don't really need it. It just makes things more convenient.
There's a video that shows the process using a Kensington SSD laptop replacement kit. Watch it here (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xda6b8_how-to-install-an-ssd-onto-your-lap_tech). There's probably better how-to videos up on YouTube.
Luck! :Thmbsup:
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Interesting... thanks for the info and link.
Should I decide to give up the optical drive to install a SSD there (I don't watch so many DVDs, an external optical drive might be an option), is it still possible to use that as the system drive, and the original HD as backup? Will I still be able to get the full SSD speed this way?
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- I'm considering one with a ~120 GB SSD drive (because of speed, energy, noise, and heat)-brotherS
Most SSDs end up drawing a bit more power in total than harddrives, as they have continuous power draw, whereas harddrives spin down when not in use. Speed is definitely better, but caveat emptor: you need one of the decent SSDs, some of them are slower than harddrives under real-world scenarios. Not sure about heat, my Intel X25-E seems relatively warm to the touch - but that might be ambient heat buildup from the case.
I looked a bit around for laptops last week, and I'm a bit shocked tbh. Does everybody use that damn crappy WXGA (1280x768) resolution for ~15" monitors?
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Should I decide to give up the optical drive to install a SSD there (I don't watch so many DVDs, an external optical drive might be an option), is it still possible to use that as the system drive, and the original HD as backup? Will I still be able to get the full SSD speed this way?-brotherS
Personally, I'd definitely go for an external optical drive if I needed more space than available with a non-insanely priced SSD. Looking back at the last 2½ years, I've probably used my laptop's optical drive 5-10 times, max. OTOH, my laptop not being my primary system, a 120gig SSD would be quite enough :)
Anyway, you definitely do want the SSD as the main drive, hosting Windows + Apps For Great Justice speed :)
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Does everybody use that damn crappy WXGA (1280x768) resolution for ~15" monitors?
My 15" Dell Inspiron is set to 1366x768. :P
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Does everybody use that damn crappy WXGA (1280x768) resolution for ~15" monitors?
My 15" Dell Inspiron is set to 1366x768. :P-kyrathaba
Still has an utterly useless vertical resolution - my current laptop has whatever*800, and even that is too little.
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I would never get another Dell laptop. I would go for something else like a Toshiba.
My Dell Studio has a Sony optical drive, and it has never worked properly. And I've had it replaced 2x. Beyond useless.
The ATI video has never worked right -- BSOD error with another monitor plugged in on Win x64.
Other than those 2, it's been fine. But those are 2 pretty big problems. Oh, and the caps lock light doesn't work...
I'm not the only one to have issues with Dell. Both Dell and HP rate very low on the consumer side. You can find reviews on the topic.
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I'm relatively happy with my Inspiron, although my next laptop will be a 17".
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I'm relatively happy with my Inspiron, although my next laptop will be a 17".-kyrathaba
Personally I find 17" to be way too large for a laptop, but that's because I drag mine around a lot, rather than using it as a "mobile workstation" mostly used at home. 17 inchers are too heavy and bulky to carry around comfortably, and a 15" screen is largeenough - it's just that most of them have puny resolution, unless you go to the insane-o price levels :(
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Agreed, fodder. I use mine mainly as a mobile workstation -- don't transport it, often. Wish I'd gone 17". But considering I've got a 17" HP in the closet, which needs only a replacement bezel to be functional, I can't really complain.
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Lenovo has 15" T510 laptops starting at $880. If you can find some coupon codes, or whenever they go on major sale, you may even get more discounts. They are still more expensive than most other brands but the premium you pay is for the durability (roll-cage design) and some other niceties.
They have a Full HD (1920x1080) LED display option, but you gotta pony up for that +$250.
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You could look up models at Notebookcheck http://www.notebookcheck.net/ one of the better review sites for mini computers.
And then check even more at Notebookreview http://forum.notebookreview.com/ users know best.
All brands have made and do make crappy models so don't exclude whatever because of 2 year old stories - or the opposite.
When looking at reviews and perhaps ordering on that basis be careful with specs. Same model can have different spec for cpu, hd, battery, video card and whatever is in there. What you buy will only look similar to the one you read about as it is a variant with same or almost same model number. Go by unique manufacturer number to be sure. Shops should list that.
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hi BrotherS -
here's a possible candidate but WAY below your budget (!) - meets most of your requirements but not the SSD drive.
Matte screen - unfortunately only 768 high (x 1366). Not super-bright but okay. (Not recommended for outdoors)
I'm not sure about the on-off fan thing - I have used it a little - but not a lot (it's not mine). It seemd fairly quiet to me.
Lenovo ThinkPad SL510 NSLDFGE (http://www.cyberport.de/?EVENT=itemsearch&view=liste&query=Lenovo+ThinkPad+SL510+NSLCSGE+-+4+GB+RAM&filterkategorie=)
with 6GB RAM (comes with 2 - you got to install the extra RAM) for €469
http://www.cyberport.de/notebook/notebooks/notebook-berater/1C30-23P/lenovo-thinkpad-sl510-nsldfge-6-gb-ram.html
This version has no graphics card but is quieter because of that. Dont know how that suits - there is a version with card but reviews said it a bit noisy then. See this thread (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=24380.0) here for a bit of discussion about the CPU (especially the second last post).
[edit] I was working with this today and the fan does start and stop, so I guess that rules it out [/edit]
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I just came across this rather awesome sounding Lenovo option:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=7120341
It's only 4GB of RAM (upgradeable of course) but it's using the latest Intel "Sandy Bridge" generation of Core i7 CPU, so it's going to be very fast. It has reasonably fast discreet graphics. Weight is average, battery life OK ("up to 3 hours"), it's 15.6" with 1366x768 which is about as good as you'll get without a high-end screen (that will be hard to read without "big fonts" at that resolution and screen size anyway). Best of all IMO is it doesn't have a separate numpad and the touch pad is therefore centered and not offset (a huge complaint for me with last generation 15.6" laptops). It includes Bluetooth but no USB 3. Has both HDMI and VGA out. SSD is not that big a benefit IMHO, and not worth the cost.
Price is reasonable at $899, no tax with TigerDirect to most states. I'm contemplating buying this one myself...
- Oshyan
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SSD is not that big a benefit IMHO, and not worth the cost.-JavaJones
Have you ever used a decent SSD?
I've found that I don't notice the benefits of my SSD so much anymore... but I definitely notice whenever I'm on a machine with a harddrive. Spoil-factor :)
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Truth be told no, I have not used a newer, good SSD. But I do know how much they cost and their data storage restrictions, and I just don't personally find it worthwhile at this point. Of course it's worthwhile for some, and could be a replacement for or addition to the built-in drive on the Lenovo as well, if desired.
- Oshyan
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So, any leanings so far? Figured out a few options that are looking good?
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Wow, thanks for all your feedback!
@tomos: long time no type! :-) I read that thread, but what exactly do you mean regarding the CPU? That's it's a reasonable choice?
@JavaJones: thanks, but the Lenovo Ideapad Y560 series seems to only come with a "glare" display, not "matte". (Btw, I agree, I find a touch pad that's not centered irritating too.)
Based on your feedback I'll might decide against SSD for now and get loads of RAM instead... not sure about this yet though.
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@tomos: long time no type! :-) I read that thread, but what exactly do you mean regarding the CPU? That's it's a reasonable choice?
-brotherS
that bit was not so important :)
basically:
of the two versions of the laptop I was looking at, JavaJones noted (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=24380.msg224031#msg224031) that "the higher-numbered CPU might actually be lower performance"
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It's seems quite difficult to get matte screens...
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Based on your feedback I'll might decide against SSD for now and get loads of RAM instead... not sure about this yet though.-brotherS
Well, what are your I/O workloads like?
Apart from specific workloads, I do find that my SSD speeds up stuff program launching considerably... but I'm the kind of person who seems to notice a couple hundred of milliseconds :)
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I tend to have Google Chrome running all the time, with *way* too many tabs open at any given moment. :-[ That's the highest workload on a permanent basis.
That being said, what (if any) effect would more graphic card memory have? On average I have about 20-40 program windows (Chrome, text editors, Locate, ...) open on the desktop, plus 5-10 Windows Explorer windows.
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In general, the more resources your computer has, the smoother any ride you plan it to do will be.
Video apps and games profit most noticeably from more RAM on your graphic card. The GPU that comes with these cards nowadays can be utilized in the more mundane tasks of a PC. But from what I read and understand is that more RAM on your graphic card will not do much in lifting your workload.
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edited my post above:
[...]
Lenovo ThinkPad SL510 NSLDFGE (http://www.cyberport.de/?EVENT=itemsearch&view=liste&query=Lenovo+ThinkPad+SL510+NSLCSGE+-+4+GB+RAM&filterkategorie=)
[...]
[edit] I was working with this a little today. The fan does start and stop, so I guess that rules it out [/edit]
-tomos
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I am so close to buying that Lenovo I linked to above...
- Oshyan
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edited my post above:
[...]
Lenovo ThinkPad SL510 NSLDFGE (http://www.cyberport.de/?EVENT=itemsearch&view=liste&query=Lenovo+ThinkPad+SL510+NSLCSGE+-+4+GB+RAM&filterkategorie=)
[...]
[edit] I was working with this a little today. The fan does start and stop, so I guess that rules it out [/edit]
-tomos
-tomos
Too bad... :(
Then hopefully JavaJones buys the other one and can tell me about the fan there! :)
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edited my post above:
[...]
Lenovo ThinkPad SL510 NSLDFGE (http://www.cyberport.de/?EVENT=itemsearch&view=liste&query=Lenovo+ThinkPad+SL510+NSLCSGE+-+4+GB+RAM&filterkategorie=)
[...]
[edit] I was working with this a little today. The fan does start and stop, so I guess that rules it out [/edit]
-tomos
-tomos
Most laptops will allow you to set the fan to stay on through the BIOS, if that's what you REALLY want. I don't see why you would want the fan running when it doesn't need to be. The power manager on Lenovo computers will allow you to set the fan to maximize performance, which is a better way to go, IMOH.
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Most laptops will allow you to set the fan to stay on through the BIOS, if that's what you REALLY want. I don't see why you would want the fan running when it doesn't need to be. The power manager on Lenovo computers will allow you to set the fan to maximize performance, which is a better way to go, IMOH.-xtabber
I'd rather have the fans running constantly, but at a lower rate, than having the JET EXHAUST NOISE every-so-often :)
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I'm with f0dder!
@xtabber: check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3tin-05CEM (and turn the volume up) to get an idea how annoying it can be in a quiet room. Probably not so bad in a loud and hectic work environment.
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Been flogging a lot of Samsung HD laptops recently (eg. R540). Reasonably priced, well made and nice screens with the advantage of a full size keyboard. Main drawback is battery life is not up to the hype.
Depending on how much you want to spend Sony do some very nice HD laptops and generally are ugradeable to 8Gb RAM and have Core i3 processors which are quite nippy. Cost a bit more for the BluRay versions but they are really solidly built and have a decent battery life.
If you are looking at Thinkpads be aware that they are very crap heavy out of the box and make sure you avoid models with bloody stupid button/joysick type mouse instead of a touchpad (awful to use - unless you only ever plan to use a wireless mouse).
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Been flogging a lot of Samsung HD laptops recently (eg. R540). Reasonably priced, well made and nice screens with the advantage of a full size keyboard. Main drawback is battery life is not up to the hype.
Depending on how much you want to spend Sony do some very nice HD laptops and generally are ugradeable to 8Gb RAM and have Core i3 processors which are quite nippy. Cost a bit more for the BluRay versions but they are really solidly built and have a decent battery life.
-Carol Haynes
Thanks for the pointer. The only Sony that fits my needs seems to be the VAIO EB4X1E/BQ - which sounds pretty good (to me) on paper:
- 39.4 cm/15.5"
- 4 GB RAM (2x 2 GB)
- Intel Core i5-480M (2.66 GHz / 3 MB Cache)
- Windows 7 Home Premium 64-Bit
- Full HD (1920 x 1080)
- ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5650
- 500 GB HDD
- Blu-ray Disc Combo (BD-ROM/ DVD+-RW/+-R DL/RAM)
- WLAN 802.11n, Bluetooth
Not cheap, but might be worth it... and according to the review of a similar VAIO model, the fan runs continuously, but is rather quiet.
And should I ever decide to go SSD, I found this:
2nd Drive Caddy for Sony VAIO E & F Series (add 2nd HDD or SSD)
http://newmodeus.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=280
eSATA-USB cable (eSATAp), connect SATA optical drive externally
http://newmodeus.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=346
If you are looking at Thinkpads be aware that they are very crap heavy out of the box and make sure you avoid models with bloody stupid button/joysick type mouse instead of a touchpad (awful to use - unless you only ever plan to use a wireless mouse).
-Carol Haynes
I'm not sure if you left out the "t" by accident or on purpose, but that really IS a sick invention... I wonder how it ever ended up in a real product.
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Funny, I like the "joystick"/nubbin pointer on Thinkpads. Always have. I'm out of practice with them, but when I used one regularly I much preferred it to a touch pad. Regardless of my opinion they're still shipping them so I must not be the only one who likes them. ;)
By the way I did end up buying the Lenovo. Should be here Thursday. Woo!
- Oshyan
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Got the y560p. Overall I'm pretty happy with it. For the price I got a wickedly fast CPU, 750GB HD, and discreet graphics card. All things that I wanted. On top of that I got a keyboard without numpad and a centered touch pad, both of which I prefer.
Unfortunately there are a few problems, some with workarounds, others... I don't know. *sigh*
First thing I ran into is the touch pad is actually rather *big*. Small problem, just takes some getting used to, it's the reach between left and right click that I have to adjust to most. Far from a deal breaker in any case.
Then there is the fact that the normal lower-left Ctrl key is now the Fn key. Many, many laptop manufacturers make this "mistake" (mistake IMHO) and I really don't understand why. Ctrl has been in this position on most keyboards for eons. Fn is a new-ish key that is only present on laptops. There's no particularly good reason not to put the Fn key where they always move the Ctrl key to. This one does really bug me. Admittedly it's something you can adjust to, but since desktop keyboards are all the "normal" way it's harder. I will be looking into a key remapper, but I saw that some people on the Lenovo forums were going so far as to use a custom (and obviously unsupported) *BIOS modification* just to get this system-wide. Yeesh
OK, now we get into the more serious stuff. The next thing I noticed was the touch pad would stop responding for a half second or so after any typing. This one I didn't understand at all. I figured it had to be a settings issue with the touchpad and I scoured around in there, eventually discovering that turning down the "palm guard" (supposed to help avoid accidental touch pad motion when typing) helped a good amount. Now the delay is minimal, though it's still there a bit. I also turned off most of the touch pad "gestures" as I find then being triggered at random too often. So fortunately this whole issue was minimized.
Finally, the biggest issue that still somewhat remains, the dithering on this laptop is some of the worst I've ever seen. For those of you not familiar with dithering, it's a color reproduction method used by cheap LCDs (on most laptops; Apple was even sued over this!) that basically tries to make up for lower color depth (6 bit vs. 8 bit) by using multiple colors in patterns (like newsprint) to simulate more subtle gradients. It's generally not that noticeable on your average laptop screen, but for some reason here it's pretty distracting, at least for me. Apparently the y560 has had this problem off and on for a while, even back into 6+ months ago with the previous model (before Sandy Bridge). That being the case it's frankly rather shocking and dismaying that the problem persists now. I may just be unusually sensitive to it, but it definitely bothers me, and is worse than my previous Toshiba, or even the cheap, generic replacement LCD I eventually had to get for it (when I cracked the original :D).
There's a lot of discussion in the Lenovo forums about the display issue and various possible fixes. It seems as though it *may* be something Lenovo can fix with a BIOS update or graphics card driver fix. That remains to be seen. Fortunately I did find that turning the refresh rate down from 60hz to 50hz seems to help a bit and makes the effect almost invisible in many cases. It's still there if I look close, but it's better. This seemed odd to me, but I'm not going to argue. Surprisingly I didn't see any mention of this on the Lenovo forums yet...
Last but not least, there is the new Intel Sandy Bridge chipset issue (http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/31/intel-finds-sandy-bridge-chipset-design-flaw-shipments-stopped/) which has just cropped up. It's unclear yet whether it affects laptops as I think they may use a different chipset, and certainly a different board design, but it's certainly still of concern. I will be waiting to see how it pans out.
Now this may seem like a lot of issues, but I've found issues with almost every product I've purchased. I will say I was more thoroughly pleased with my Eee when I bought it, and with the Toshiba 15" laptop that preceeded this Lenovo. But both also have some issues.
Ultimately I am not certain I am going to keep this thing, though I am leaning toward yes as the price is right and the basic hardware is solid. So far I've been able to work around or mitigate most of the issues I've encountered *except* the possible Intel chipset issue. Waiting to hear about that one...
Mostly I'm just frustrated at what seem like really obvious and, in many cases, preventable issues. These things should be caught in QA. If laptop makers stopped trying to reinvent the wheel with e.g. new keyboard layouts and whatnot, I think there would be a lot less of some of these issues. I just don't understand why they keep doing this as it usually causes more problems than it solves. I suppose they want to differentiate their products, but I say that sticking with what works would be different enough from the competition as it is! You should see HPs new nightmarish "all-in-one touchpad" on all their new laptops, widely regarded as absolutely awful to use. How do these things get out of the labs!?
Regardless of my satisfaction with this model, I think it's a clear case of wait-and-see for any 2nd gen i-series CPU laptops at this point given the Intel chipset issue. Wait and see if it affects laptops, if not then you're in the clear. We should know within a week or two.
- Oshyan
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Not got the energy to read to see if its already been suggested...but get the Dell Duo!