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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: Lashiec on January 21, 2008, 03:25 PM

Title: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Lashiec on January 21, 2008, 03:25 PM: Oh, look, those Linux guys are receiving yet another update of that impressive-looking KDE desktop thing, and we, poor Windows and Mac OS X users are still trapped with our yesteryear interfaces and operating systems. But fear not, for the KDE guys come to the rescue!

OK, let's get serious, this is an update I've been dribbling about since I saw the first beta, not only for its looks, but also for the metaphor change, and a development in the works which makes another inroad in proprietary operating systems by the use of OSS. I'm going through the Ars Technica review (http://arstechnica.com/reviews/os/kde-40-review.ars) now, and although the first version have some rough points that will be fixed in a future 4.1 version (hmmm, that reminds me of a certain operating system...), it seems these people have a winner in their hands. Take that, GNOME! :P

The best of all is that, thanks to the use of Qt4, versions of KDE for Windows and Mac OS X will be available in the future. I don't know how well would they integrate with the rest of the environment, but I'm eager to find it.

Announcement (http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.0/)

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

The announcement only mentions the most important changes, but some of the possibilities that the new desktop implies are impressive, as for example, the ability to transform Amarok into a modular player, just like foobar2000, using Plasmoids, that's what the individual elements in the Plasma desktop are called. Now, the only one thing we need is a stable Linux distribution to try it with some more time :)

EDIT: Typos, eaten words, etc.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: wreckedcarzz on January 21, 2008, 03:28 PM: versions of KDE for Windows and Mac OS X will be available in the future.
-Lashiec (January 21, 2008, 03:25 PM)

I love the KDE desktop environment! It is so interactive and has so many little cool things you can do with it. And the customization is just amazing. Hope it hits Windows (and Vista) soon! :)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on January 21, 2008, 04:04 PM: QT4!!! Portable!!! Cross-Platform!!!

*jgpaiva* cheers with hopes on a bright new future!

Ok, now seriously:
This is very good news, and i hope i'll be able to test KDE4 on windows very soon (as currently, a look at their page really gives the impression that it's something very unstable)

This is a very good step for the linux people too, if they get more windows people to use kde, linux might get even more users (since the biggest problem is always the interface leap).
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on January 21, 2008, 04:49 PM: Ok, i have now read the whole article and i'm very happy with what i read. The term "cross-platform" and its synonyms kept appearing, and i think that's a huge step towards tomorrow's technologies.
Even though it sure isn't a polished project, the ideas look very inovative and interesting, let's now hope people will love it as much as the reviewer did ;)

This is a very well written article, and next time i see an article by Ars Technica, i'll be sure to read it. Thanks lashiec!!
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: mouser on January 21, 2008, 08:10 PM: Sounds like good news.. but.. hate to be the rotten egg in the box.. but.. those screenshots look ugly to me.. maybe i just like my displays packed tight and full of details.. all that whitespace looks yuck.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: wreckedcarzz on January 21, 2008, 08:12 PM: While that is a valid point, some "iCandy" never hurts. You can probably adjust the views and settings to show whatever you want afterwards anyways.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Darwin on January 21, 2008, 11:04 PM: +1 for the screenshots not really having the WOW factor (for me) - looks like clunky verison of OS X.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on January 22, 2008, 04:11 AM: What i think is really interesting about this, isn't the look of the thing. You can use themes to make it look exactly like what you like. There even are a few mac osx imitations, and i'm sure that if the windows project gets off the ground, they'll make a win98 theme to show people how while using the same graphic elements, they can have better technology. (at least, i hope they do).

Just take a look at the article, and you'll see the main point of the thing isn't the looks but the inner works.

Something i forgot to mention previously: the file manager still sucks, when compared to the windows alternatives :(
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Darwin on January 22, 2008, 07:24 AM: Just take a look at the article, and you'll see the main point of the thing isn't the looks but the inner works.
-jgpaiva (January 22, 2008, 04:11 AM)

Oh come on, João, do you honeslty expect me to go beyond judging a book by its cover?! Darwin slinks off to do as directed... :-[
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Armando on January 24, 2008, 09:57 AM: KDE on Windows and Mac OS X :

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080123-kde-goes-cross-platform-with-windows-mac-os-x-support.html
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: tranglos on January 24, 2008, 01:15 PM: Sounds like good news.. but.. hate to be the rotten egg in the box.. but.. those screenshots look ugly to me.. maybe i just like my displays packed tight and full of details.. all that whitespace looks yuck.
-mouser (January 21, 2008, 08:10 PM)

With you all the way. And for some reason this seems to be typical of many open-source, cross-platform GUIs.

I remember when first installed Red Hat, back in the times when 800x600 was the typical home/desktop resolution, the windowing environment looked just like that. This made some applications almost unusable. Netscape's Options dialog box was so tall it didn't fit on the screen vertically, so that OK/Cancel buttons were off-screen. And at the same time everything on the dialog was oversized and there was plenty of wasted white space.

Back then I thought the developers must have been working on high-end systems with some obscenely high resolution and never thought about scaling issues. WordPerfect (then by Corel, and free on Linux!) was pretty much the same.

FireFox is the only app of the kind which manages to avoid this, perhaps because it truly gets a lot of cross-platform use, so such issues would have been caught and corrected early on. Although even in FF some dialogs are kind of space-y.

(I am aware that whitespace enhances readability, but those dialogs were just elephantine.)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Armando on January 24, 2008, 01:42 PM: GUIs are so customizable that IMHO it's not a real problem. But true, they (the developpers) should be a bit more attentive to details... I personally find that Ubuntu has a nice default GUI (Gnome), and so does Mandriva and a couple other distributions.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Gothi[c] on January 24, 2008, 01:59 PM: With you all the way. And for some reason this seems to be typical of many open-source, cross-platform GUIs.

This seems typical of many people to judge a package by it's wrapping :)

I definitively agree that the screens look like absolute crap. My main beef with it is that everything is too friggin' big (I love Armando's "elephantile" description hehe) . I understand some people have wall-sized monitors, but i like everything small, and like mouser said, detailed.

But it should be noted that KDE is VERY customizable. Even more so than Gnome. And it is quite easy to do so. It is actually exciting that this new version will give us even more settings to tweak and customize, as any software-addict be it an open-source hater or not, should definitively love! :)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: tranglos on January 25, 2008, 11:17 PM: With you all the way. And for some reason this seems to be typical of many open-source, cross-platform GUIs.

This seems typical of many people to judge a package by it's wrapping :)
-Gothi[c] (January 24, 2008, 01:59 PM)

That's the only way I know of telling good software, has there ever ben another? :)

But seriously, this oversizedness and tendency to leave large pools of blankness is everywhere in apps that have originated on Linux. It's wherever you look, check out the screenshot of Nvu, the Gecko-based, cross-platform HTML editor:

http://images.linspire.com/nvu/siteManagerInSidebar.jpg

And anyway, what is the world coming to? First you could run Windows on a Mac, now it's KDE on Windows, pretty soon men and women will be, I don't know, living in the same *houses* or something!

But it should be noted that KDE is VERY customizable. Even more so than Gnome. And it is quite easy to do so.
-Gothi[c] (January 24, 2008, 01:59 PM)

Easy as in easy, or easy as in "as soon as you have mastered editing sendmail config in vi"? (*gdr*)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: f0dder on January 26, 2008, 07:00 AM: But seriously, this oversizedness and tendency to leave large pools of blankness is everywhere in apps that have originated on Linux. It's wherever you look, check out the screenshot of Nvu, the Gecko-based, cross-platform HTML editor:

http://images.linspire.com/nvu/siteManagerInSidebar.jpg
-tranglos (January 25, 2008, 11:17 PM)

Oh gawd, that image makes my eyes bleed. So...much...wasted...space >_<

Seems typical of graphical linux apps. So much blank space, oversized buttons and borders, etc. Ugh.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Gothi[c] on January 26, 2008, 07:46 AM: Easy as in easy, or easy as in "as soon as you have mastered editing sendmail config in vi"? (*gdr*)

Easy as in there's a gui tool to customize every aspect of the look of KDE. So you never have to edit config files.

However I did notice this is not quite yet the case in KDE4. I recently gave it a shot and it seems you can't resize the taskbar like you could in KDE3.x? :down: Maybe they'll put that in later, unless I missed something...
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on January 26, 2008, 07:58 AM: From what i understood from the review, the taskbar was removed, and replaced with a Plasma widget. The problem is that it's incomplete and not working correctly :)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Lashiec on January 26, 2008, 09:21 AM: As with Windows Vista (and every other piece of software as lately, it seems), wait for SP1 ;)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: roady on January 26, 2008, 10:57 AM: Something i forgot to mention previously: the file manager still sucks, when compared to the windows alternatives :(
-jgpaiva (January 22, 2008, 04:11 AM)

Which filemanager do you mean?
I mostly use Krusader,and for me,it's the best free alternative to mr Ghisler's Total Commander.....
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Armando on January 26, 2008, 11:21 AM: Krusader
-roady (January 26, 2008, 10:57 AM)

Looks nice. I'll have to try it at some point. Thanks for the pointer!
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on January 26, 2008, 01:36 PM: I was talking about dolphin, the one tested in the review.

Krusader looks very good, i just gave it a go, and i might get used to it.
I prefer a dual-pane file explorer, opposed to a norton commander file explorer, though. Still, on my computer (which has gnome and not kde), krusader's keyboard navigation failed way too many times for my tastes (sometimes the arrows or the enter key wouldn't change the selection or open the selected folders, and similar things).
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Lashiec on January 28, 2008, 05:30 PM: OK, I suppose it can go here :)

Surprise, surprise, guess who snagged Trolltech (http://trolltech.com/28012008/28012008)? HINT: It's not a company from Norway.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: f0dder on January 28, 2008, 06:20 PM: But it's geographically pretty close, Finland.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: zridling on January 30, 2008, 12:12 AM: Gothi[c] is right — you can customize both KDE and Gnome until your fingers bleed. What I really love about them is that you can keep an old UI if you like it. Used to XP and want to stick with it across versions? No problem! Want it to look like Vista? No problem, just start tweaking. The problem most users would run into with these two desktop environments is that you can absolutely change every single little part of the interface and it can be exhausting. So most folks look for themes, similar to how Opera allows you to change its look on the fly.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Carol Haynes on January 30, 2008, 03:21 PM: Sorry if this has already been mentioned but KDE 4 for Windows is available in beta form here: http://windows.kde.org/

Currently it doesn't replace Explorer as the Windows GUI but presumably when the project reaches a stable release version it will do.

There are a few articles about it on ZDNET - here is one that I read which shows a little how the beta version works:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1185
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on January 30, 2008, 03:55 PM: Interesting, Carol!

It's good to know more people are paying attention to this project, it's exactly what it needs ;)

I'm sorry to know that the shell replacement isn't available yet, though :(
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Lashiec on January 30, 2008, 07:32 PM: The important thing IS... Amarok is coming to Windows :D

And KOffice, and maybe I could kick out that monster called OpenOffice, and use it as office suite. And KDevelop, an IDE for a zillion languages which does not use Java. And Kopete, and, and...
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on August 10, 2008, 07:19 AM: KDE was updated to 4.1 a few days ago. Arstechnica also made a few positive comments to this new release. Read more about it here: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080729-kde-4-1-delivers-a-next-gen-desktop-linux-experience.html
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: 40hz on August 10, 2008, 01:38 PM: It's beautiful, it's colorful, it's big and bright and all things nice...

And I just don't like the way it looks.

But that's just me. ;)

I guess if you have it up on some huge wide-screen LCD it's the cat's pajamas. But on my 12" laptop it looks like an arcade puzzle game. The performance improvements are great, but the presentation doesn't do it for me.

So now I have to figure out if I have the patience to start hacking big time to get it to be something I would like, or just stick with Xfce. Hmmmmm....
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on August 10, 2008, 01:45 PM: 40 hz: Did you try 4.0? Do your think this new version is an improvement over it? Do you think 4.0 was usable? How about 4.1?
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Deozaan on August 10, 2008, 06:19 PM: ~~I'm with mouser on this one. In my opinion, it looks like a boring grey Windows XP theme mixed with the ugly HUGE icons from Vista.~~

EDIT: Just realized how old this thread is. :-[
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: Carol Haynes on August 10, 2008, 07:21 PM: Haven't tired it - but the 4.1 article posted by jgpaiva above looks interesting .... although am I the only person who thinks it looks remarkably like a Vista clone?
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: zridling on August 11, 2008, 01:35 AM: Wow, where'd they get those huge icons at in that article?! I like the Vista UI, but this 4.1 version has both stability and some extremely convenient shortcuts. (And this coming from someone who's used Gnome and xfce to date.)

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://www.thegsblog.com/i/kde41_01l.jpg)
click for larger
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on August 11, 2008, 05:13 AM: Carol: At this point, I don't really care if they just copy each other, as long as at least one of them comes up with something half decent. Actually, to have them copying each other is a good sign, means they are looking at the others and (hopefuly) improving over what they see :)

Zaine: That walpaper is just gorgeous :D

I have mixed feeling with that new "icons" thing, I think it's useful to have it displaying several folders on the desktop, but I also think it takes quite a bit of screen real-estate, with displaying the frame and its title. Zaine: does the frame resize when you add files to the folder, or do you have to resize it yourself? (yeah, I know I could install kde4.1 myself, but I'm on vacations and can't download it while on this mobile connection :( )
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: 40hz on August 11, 2008, 08:18 AM: 40 hz: Did you try 4.0? Do your think this new version is an improvement over it? Do you think 4.0 was usable? How about 4.1?
-jgpaiva (August 10, 2008, 01:45 PM)

Tried 4.0 and thought I would never use KDE again.

Tried 4.1 and was very impressed by the improvements across the board.

I always liked the degree of control KDE afforded the end-user. I am of the school that believes you should be able to change, tweak, and tune every aspect of your desktop. Not that you should necessarily, but Linux is supposed to be all about choice right?

But I still can't get my head around the visual presentation. I don't really know what it is about the appearance of the new KDE that bothers me so much. It reminds me of Adobe AIR or the Enlightenment desktop. Everybody I know loves the look of both. I don't. And I very much dislike widgets in any way shape or form.

It probably has more to do with my individual sense of aesthetics and work style than anything rational. If you buy into NLP, my preferred representational system is auditory rather than visual. I guess that comes from my being a trained musician - and not having the world's greatest eyesight. ;D

So anytime I'm commenting on visual design issues, just take it with a grain of salt! My sister, who owns a design agency, certainly does. ;D

In the long run I'm sure KDE will turn out to be a winner. So much so that I'll probably keep an installation of it on a swappable hard drive just so I can keep on top of it.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on August 11, 2008, 09:58 AM: Thanks a lot for your opinion, 40hz :D
I can't wait to test kde 4.1 ;)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: 40hz on August 11, 2008, 12:28 PM: Thanks a lot for your opinion, 40hz :D
I can't wait to test kde 4.1 ;)
-jgpaiva (August 11, 2008, 09:58 AM)

My pleasure. Always happy to share my misunderstandings and lack of expertise! ;D

You might want to take a look at these articles (pro):

http://www.linux.com/feature/142661

http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/features/article.php/3761781/KDE+4.1+Review:+The+Rocky+Road+of+the+New+KDE.htm

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080729-kde-4-1-delivers-a-next-gen-desktop-linux-experience.html

And this one (con):

http://www.deviceguru.com/2008/07/31/kde-410-disappoints/

A friend pointed me to this link for an easy way to install it if you're running Ubuntu.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/How-To-Install-KDE-4-1-On-Ubuntu-8-04-91034.shtml

Can't vouch for it since I did it the hard way, like always. But friend said it worked perfectly for her. Please note she did it immediately after a clean installation from CD. Your mileage may vary if you're installing on top of an existing copy (i.e. not recommended).

Luck :Thmbsup:
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: 40hz on August 11, 2008, 12:58 PM: On a quasi-related note: if you're just looking for an alternate desktop to what you're using, check out this article - 20 Most Nimble and Simple X Window Managers for Linux

Link: http://www.junauza.com/2008/08/20-most-nimble-and-simple-x-window.html

Although these are small footprint desktop managers, they don't lack in features or innovation. Some (Fluxbox et al) rival the functionality of the bigger desktops. Some of them (like Rat Poison which doesn't use a mouse at all) border on the bizarre.

And just because they're small doesn't mean they lack in eye candy. This is an example of OpenBox:

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on August 11, 2008, 03:54 PM: 40hz: Thanks a lot for the links!
I read the "con" review, and from what I understand, the problem was that the reviewer didn't make a clean install, just updated 4.0, or something like that. Good thing I haven't installed 4.0 on my ubuntu machine, I hope I won't have problems installing :)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: 40hz on August 11, 2008, 04:34 PM: 40hz: Thanks a lot for the links!
I read the "con" review, and from what I understand, the problem was that the reviewer didn't make a clean install, just updated 4.0, or something like that. Good thing I haven't installed 4.0 on my ubuntu machine, I hope I won't have problems installing :)
-jgpaiva (August 11, 2008, 03:54 PM)

I'll burn a new incense stick in front of my stuffed penguin for you.

Best luck - and let us all know how it works out. :)
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: zridling on August 11, 2008, 08:43 PM: jgpaiva: no, it doesn't resize when you add items, but it does add a scrollbar automatically. Even better, you can add links to any folder and filter their view within the [desktop] folder. Pretty cool.
Title: Re: KDE 4 out, and my, it looks gorgeous!
Post by: jgpaiva on August 12, 2008, 04:48 AM: Zaine: Interesting! I specially like the filter view thing :)