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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: mouser on July 09, 2013, 06:33 AM
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I've resisted this for a while but i'm really interested in adding a home theater pc (HTPC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_theater_PC)) device to my stereo system.
But I have no idea where to start regarding hardware or software.
What's most important to me:
- I will want to use it to browse and play from my music collection; so i want very good software for music browse/search; I'm more interested in good solid reliable software vs cutting edge super customizable stuff. This will be my primary use of this device, playing music from a large collection of mp3 directories, so that's what i want it to do well.
- I want this to replace my DVD player; so it should be able to play dvd (or better yet blu-ray) discs well.
- Ideally it should have same wide form factor as a dvd player -- though this is not mandatory; fine if its as large as a full size receiver.
- I don't need tv tuner functionality.
- I would like to be able to watch youtube/live streaming.
- Always on or quick-on functionality is important -- I don't want to have to wait more than 30-60 seconds for startup.
- Cheaper is better -- don't want to pay more than a couple hundred.
- Being able to upgrade HD in it would be nice (as opposed to a closed box); but i'm not obsessed about being able to customize/replace all of the hardware in it.
- It should run quiet and cool -- it can get hot where this will be located.
- Do not need to worry about multi-room streaming, etc.; I already have a stereo system and hdtv, this will be one component feeding into the receiver.
Suggestions?
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Are you looking at building? Or buying a pre-built solution?
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Either way. Wouldn't mind building.
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Last year, I set up an HTPC or sorts using a Dune HD Duo (http://dune-hd.com/eng/products/full_hd_media_players/12) as the core. To play music, audio books and movies/documentaries, I use a few of 'green' 3.5" drives from WD, Seagate and Hitachi. What I like about Dune is:
- its ability to play most file formats,
- the nice Zappiti media wall (http://zappiti.com/zappiti-skin.html)
- the clean video up-scaling
The Duo has now been discontinued by Dune, although firmware updates continue to be available. You could however look at the currently available models, which should fit your budget.
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What sort of budget are we building in here?
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Maybe $300-$400?
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I've found from my experience that silverstone makes good cases. An example is this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163174). The more you pay, the better the case will be, but that one is a pretty good low-end starter case.
Silverstone also makes good power supplies (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006519%2050002031%2040000058&IsNodeId=1&SubCategory=58&Manufactory=2031&SpeTabStoreType=1). Though I don't use them for desktops, their PSUs tend to be quieter than others, even under full load. However, because of that quiet, they also tend to heat up more.
Though I usually go with Intel for my builds, for my HTPC I've gone with AMD twice, and Intel once. AMD processors seem to require less in terms of space, and function better in smaller builds in my experience.
I used a HDD in my first two builds- my last build was my first with SSD, and I can say that it has made it more responsive.
My last one was also the first time I went with onboard video instead of low profile. I'm definitely going with Low profile again when I build another; I see the difference on web based video, though not on video files strangely enough. Netflix and Youtube aren't working as well on the onboard video, though playing video files from my NAS works fine.
And I've just been using Windows Media Center for the software (on Windows 7). I've tried a few different things... from media monkey to a couple of other things (I'd have to look them up). I haven't tried a dedicated OS solution though, so I can't comment on those.
As far as controlling it, I have always used logitech solutions before... but I just used a low end rosewill remote (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16880101002) this time, and it works fine. I paired that up with an iogear keyboard with built in trackball (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823176018), and I've been set as far as controlling it.
Hope that helps... let me know if you have any other questions.
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About 6 months back, I set up a HTPC for myself with a Streacom FC8 Evo Fanless Chassis (http://www.streacom.com/products/fc8-evo-fanless-chassis/), a MSI Z77IA-E53 mini-ITX motherboard combined with a Intel Core i3-3225 and a Samsung 840 Pro SSD 128GB. As for the PSU, I used an external one also from Streacom (http://www.streacom.com/products/nano150-psu/). I recently also installed a ASUS PCE-AC66 (https://www.asus.com/Networking/PCEAC66/) wifi card to go with my 802.11ac network. This setup is more than powerful enough to run any video I throw at it (including bluray, using this drive (http://www.streacom.com/products/ob2-blu-ray-drive/) combined with SlySoft's AnyDVD HD), boots within in a handful of seconds (running Windows 8) and is 100% silent (well, except while using the optical drive of course).
As for software, I primarily use XBMC (http://xbmc.org/) but if you're mainly into music you should probably take a look at Jriver Media Center 18 (http://www.jriver.com/), which I use on pretty much every other computer I own. If you got an iPad it makes for the perfect controller for both software solutions. For XBMC, I use XBMC Commander (http://xbmc-commander.com/) and for JRMC I use and absolutely love JRemote (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/jremote/id486222633?l=nb&ls=1&mt=8). Whenever I have to use a mouse+keyboard, I'm using Logitech's lovely K810 bluetooth keyboard (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/bluetooth-illuminated-keyboard-k810) (back-lit, rechargeable) and Apple's Magic Trackpad (http://www.apple.com/magictrackpad/).
The only drawback to this setup is that it'll probably cost you a bit more than you had in mind, depending on what hardware you got laying around. It was also not exactly the easiest chassis to build (you'll need *plently* of thermal paste, and assemble things in the "right" order), but in the end it was well worth it.
EDIT: Here's a picture of the htpc, with a PS3 controller placed besides it for size comparison.
[attachtimg=1]
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what kind of cpu fan are you running on your i3? Even the lowest profile ones I've seen for LGA 1156 sockets are pretty space hungry, so I was wondering.
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what kind of cpu fan are you running on your i3? Even the lowest profile ones I've seen for LGA 1156 sockets are pretty space hungry, so I was wondering.
-wraith808
I'm not running any kind of fan on the CPU at all, it's all passively cooled. The heat-pipe design should be able to handle any CPU up to 95W, and the i3-3225 is only 55W :) The entire chassis is made of more or less a single block of aluminum, so the entire thing is essentially a massive heat sink.
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Even under load the heat doesn't spike?
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yes! Mouser is on board!
I have tons of notes on this, but not very organized. xbmc is the way to go if you need an interface built for this sort of thing. I haven't really found any other decent alternatives. if you don't need an interface, all you need is a file manager that is readable on a big screen (should be most if it's 1080p) and your favorite media player (mine is Light Alloy). This is my current htpc setup, been doing it for years. I'm trying to move to a xbmc setup, but first wanted to build my box of hard drives.
Another important piece is your remote. How are you going to move the mouse and navigate? I suggest one of the gyro remotes like gyration (I use a logitech mx air, really nice also).
My question for you is this: what more do you want other than just plugging in an old computer to your tv and going with that? It seems to fit all your requirements except for the form factor. So it's just a matter of buying a case that satisfies you and moving your parts into there (or getting new parts I guess). The only real difference to me between a regular pc and an htpc is font sizes due to sitting further away (so having a gui like xbmc suited for such things is beneficial) and the airmouse aspect. everything else is indistinguishable from a regular pc as far as i can tell.
i would suggest using makemkv to copy your dvd's losslessly to your hard drive so you wouldn't need to swap discs.
Light Alloy has a file browsing feature with big fonts specifically geared for htpc's, so that's another plus for it.
Lian Li (though expensive) has some nice cases that look just like normal dvd players, but I'm sure there are similar ones for cheaper.
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Even under load the heat doesn't spike?
-wraith808
Well, it's not at any time what you would call cold, but even under load it runs within what's safe. I probably wouldn't compile software 24/7 on it, but even under load I've yet to have it throttle due to high temps.
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Wow... that's really cool. (No pun intended ;D) I'll have to keep that in mind on my next build, even though this one was really cheap and works really well, so I doubt I'll be doing a new build soon.
Right now I have a Foxconn book sized one, and not only is it a pretty solid build, it has saved my bacon more than once- when my wife's computer went down, she was able to get by with it, and now my daughter's computer is down and she's using it.
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If you're not dealing with a TV tuner, why not just use XBMC or OpenELEC on a Raspberry Pi?
The Pi = $35.
And you may have all the other parts you need laying around.
You need a phone microUSB charger to power the Pi. You'll need an HDMI cable, of course. You'll need an SD card to store the OS on. And you may want a USB WiFi adapter; else you'll want an ethernet cord. And to get started, you'll want a USB mouse and keyboard. That's it.
You can of course, attach a hard drive, but if you're like me, you'll just share a drive on your home network and stream from it using the Pi.
Total cost even if you had to buy all those things (assuming you stream from another drive), $75 or less.
http://lifehacker.com/5929913/build-a-xbmc-media-center-with-a-35-raspberry-pi (http://lifehacker.com/5929913/build-a-xbmc-media-center-with-a-35-raspberry-pi)
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If you're not dealing with a TV tuner, why not just use XBMC or OpenELEC on a Raspberry Pi?
-AJay
I would like to be able to watch youtube/live streaming.
-mouser
Those two don't go well together. The processor just doesn't handle it well. It also doesn't handle 1080P well. The UI will also be less responsive.
The Pi is good for what it does. But his requirements sort of kick it out the door.
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I bought a Zotac mini PC. Atom microprocessor ensures a low power consumption.
Zotac + MediaMonkey (huge music library to manage) + XBMC = AWESOME.
Also, as a remote, I use my TV Remote (http://www.pulse-eight.com/store/products/104-usb-hdmi-cec-adapter.aspx), so it is quite user friendly, you do not need to swith remote, just go to the HDMI port of the media center, and keep using it.
This was a quite cost-effective solution (300€ Zotac + 100€ 4TB USB3.0 hard disk + 30€ USB - CEC adapter), and everything works together like a charm. The guys of Pulse Eight also provide a pre-compiled version of XBMC with their drivers & plugins to ensure an easy operation.
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If you're not dealing with a TV tuner, why not just use XBMC or OpenELEC on a Raspberry Pi?
-AJay
I would like to be able to watch youtube/live streaming.
-mouser
Those two don't go well together. The processor just doesn't handle it well. It also doesn't handle 1080P well. The UI will also be less responsive.
The Pi is good for what it does. But his requirements sort of kick it out the door.
-wraith808
I haven't tried it with 1080, but I haven't heard of others complaining. Not saying it's not an issue...just that I've never heard that as a complaint before. And as for mouser's requirements, it looks like THE dominant use of the device will be as a simple music player. 1080p is not an issue.
Without that, the only thing that I see as a possible issue is the YouTube piece. I would expect there's an add on though. (And for me, at least, while I occasionally found myself streaming YouTube under my old media center setup, I'd say YouTube streaming was about 1% of my use.)
If you're just streaming from a home hard drive, it's hard to beat a setup that costs less than $50. I'm quite pleased with my setup...except that I'd like to get live TV working, but mouser said he didn't care about that.
(As an aside, most people just leave their Pi on all the time. It's not going to get hot, and the cost is less than any other device you're going to consider.)
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I haven't tried it with 1080, but I haven't heard of others complaining. Not saying it's not an issue...just that I've never heard that as a complaint before. And as for mouser's requirements, it looks like THE dominant use of the device will be as a simple music player. 1080p is not an issue.
Without that, the only thing that I see as a possible issue is the YouTube piece. I would expect there's an add on though. (And for me, at least, while I occasionally found myself streaming YouTube under my old media center setup, I'd say YouTube streaming was about 1% of my use.)
-AJay
Raspberry Pi will play 1080p only if its encoded h.264. Otherwise it stutters. This is usually b/c of the sound. However, if you have already encoded your collection, this is a big deal, and transcoding isn't really an option because of problems with streaming.
Though this is not the primary use, he did state it as an important requirement, which is the reason that I brought it up. Not to disparage the Pi or any solution, but to solve his use case.
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I haven't tried it with 1080, but I haven't heard of others complaining. Not saying it's not an issue...just that I've never heard that as a complaint before. And as for mouser's requirements, it looks like THE dominant use of the device will be as a simple music player. 1080p is not an issue.
Without that, the only thing that I see as a possible issue is the YouTube piece. I would expect there's an add on though. (And for me, at least, while I occasionally found myself streaming YouTube under my old media center setup, I'd say YouTube streaming was about 1% of my use.)
-AJay
Raspberry Pi will play 1080p only if its encoded h.264. Otherwise it stutters. This is usually b/c of the sound. However, if you have already encoded your collection, this is a big deal, and transcoding isn't really an option because of problems with streaming.
Though this is not the primary use, he did state it as an important requirement, which is the reason that I brought it up. Not to disparage the Pi or any solution, but to solve his use case.
-wraith808
I guess I'm missing something. I see no reference to 1080p in mouser's requirements. I do realize BluRay is 1080p, and I acknowledge that the Pi isn't going to handle that. But that looks like a "nice to have" feature, not a "must have" (based on mouser's initial post).
Since it's a one time payment, it might not be a huge deal to pay out an extra $250 for a machine that can handle BluRay, but if you can settle for plain ole DVD...hard to beat the price of a Pi.
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1080p still requires fairly beefy or optimized equipment. I don't know all the technical details, but I have played around with different devices and experimented with different kinds of 1080p formats, and many of the devices that claim to do it have issues. Sometimes it is stuttering, sometimes it is weird slow-motion effects, some have issues seeking. Most full size pc graphics cards don't have an issue with it. raspberry pi i'm pretty sure won't be able to play many of the files I'm talking about. I bought a little android htpc stick (see the gadget thread) which claimed to be able to do it, but it couldn't (stuttered a lot).
I will give a huge :up: :Thmbsup: to this little chinese device that seems to have no problem playing back 1080p. All you need is to attach a usb drive to it and it will do the rest. It's only $60 and I take it with me everywhere. It's from a company called Diyomate.
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Now, your tv probably has multiple inputs. Put the diyomate on one input, this will be where you watch all your movies. For your internet requirement, get the android stick i was talking about, called the mk808b:
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Now, to control the internet from that android interface, you need some kind of airmouse. I've heard the gyration and mx air will work with it, but I haven't confirmed it. But sticking to this chinese theme, you can buy a cheap airmouse that does work well, called the rc11:
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The remote has a keyboard on it to boot. The more expensive and better quality option is the gyration mouse/keyboard combo.
But using this route, you get everything you want, and it costs total under $200.
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I guess I'm missing something. I see no reference to 1080p in mouser's requirements. I do realize BluRay is 1080p, and I acknowledge that the Pi isn't going to handle that. But that looks like a "nice to have" feature, not a "must have" (based on mouser's initial post).
Since it's a one time payment, it might not be a huge deal to pay out an extra $250 for a machine that can handle BluRay, but if you can settle for plain ole DVD...hard to beat the price of a Pi.
-AJay
As I said, it was in the interest of disclosure. If he doesn't have the need for it, and doesn't really care about the streaming, then he might choose to do without that, or suffer a bit. But knowledge is power, and that's what this thread is about- giving mouser the benefit of our collective knowledge, not making a decision for him.
As 40 would say... onward! :Thmbsup:
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I think I'd rather have a higher powered desktop-cpu class machine that I could maybe also use as a NAS..
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I think I'd rather have a higher powered desktop-cpu class machine that I could maybe also use as a NAS..
-mouser
Hmmm.. saying that, you've really zeroed in on something I added to my living room setup. It's not as flexible as a HTPC, but for media type uses it's aces.
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=570
I got it for about $120 from Best Buy on sale with 1TB. It's great, and I haven't had to do anything with it. I have the 1TB onboard, but I also connect to my network to get stuff off my NAS that I don't access enough to keep on the internal drive. And it is dead simple.
Not as flexible again, but it's basically a settop device, for all the good and bad that means.
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so now my parents are replacing their dvd player. their requirements are similar to mouser, except it should be an off the shelf product. what is good? it should be able to play dvd/bluray, play video files of differing formats, have a remote?
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I checked out xbmc and jriver and both look really nice.
I prefer the way Jriver has a theatre more and a more traditional mode, and in general i think i like jriver better for standard stuff (movies, audio), BUT xbmc seems to be packed to the brim with addons and fun stuff that can be added.. so it's a very tough choice.
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I checked out xbmc and jriver and both look really nice.
I prefer the way Jriver has a theatre more and a more traditional mode, and in general i think i like jriver better for standard stuff (movies, audio), BUT xbmc seems to be packed to the brim with addons and fun stuff that can be added.. so it's a very tough choice.
-mouser
I initially felt the same way. Then I got frustrated with jriver and went to xbmc. Unfortunately, I don't remember exactly why. :-[
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Then I got frustrated with jriver and went to xbmc.
Then transfer to me your unused jriver license key!
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Then I got frustrated with jriver and went to xbmc.
Then transfer to me your unused jriver license key!
-mouser
Hmmm..gladly. But I'll have to find it, and it's quite an old version (~2008?)
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Well it would save me 50% on upgrade cost..
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Well it would save me 50% on upgrade cost..
-mouser
ok i'll pm you later this weekend. is there a way to transfer the email address and everything?
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So.. I now have an HTPC setup.
The results are.. mixed.
What I bought was a used stereo-form-factor pre-built pc from ebay.
This was a machine that was once top of the line for it's form factor and cost $2500 in 2009 and I was able to pick up for a little more than $300.
https://www.maingear.com/custom/mediacenters/axess/index.php
5 years later and the specs are still very respectful for it's form factor (it has an i7 chip and 6gb of ram).
I thought having a desktop capable machine would be nice because it's possible I'll end up using it for some always-on fun computer simulations (machine learning, artificial life, etc.).
Dirhael's posts in this thread were right on target:
JRiver really does a nice job of playing and showing audio albums, with scraped background images.. Just looks really elegant while playing. Thought i may end up going back to XBMC since i normally want to find files to play by navigating folder structure not via fancy powerful tag album artist thing.
But XBMC visualizations are just terrible.
They are both confusing to customize, with JRiver being truly opaque.
Both would be fine for use as my music player -- I have thousands of cds and records that i hope to eventually convert so i can listento it with the htpc computer. For now i'm using Jriver.
Anyway, overall, the HTPC does work, and sometimes it's pretty cool.
But for the sake of other people considering HTPC life, let me discuss some of the bumps in the road i'm experiencing:
First, my decision to by a powerful pc to use as an htpc has come with a few serious drawbacks. First, it's LOUD. I hate that. I've already gone in and tweaked some underlocking and turned down the fans as much as i can, but there's just not avoiding the fact that this thing gets hot inside and there is no room for good big silent fans. This is not even mentioning the power consumption.
Second, the small form pc case means its hard to replace components (see fan replacement issue above).
Third, digital audio output sounds great. Analog output is of very low volume with this motherboard drivers (ive already upgraded, flashed bios, gone hunting for solutions so i know there is nothing much to do about it), and this creates serious humming noise on my audio input line to my reciever.
Fourth, you might ask why i would want to use analog output when the digital works great and sounds great. The reason is that my receiver decodes the digital fine but will not pass it through to my secondary speakers or my wireless speaker inputs which require analog. So i have to make a choice of digital audio and no secondary speakers in other rooms, or crappy sounding buzzing analog. Not happy about this. And this is a good receiver. It might be solvable by upgrading to some new $500 receiver but that's not going to happen.
Fifth, I underestimated how difficult it would be to read text on the tv screen. Perhaps that's because i still have an "old" style tube television. But it does mean that actually working within windows on the tv screen is unbearable so requires a secondary screen (or remote login) to do most things involving normal windows applications.
Summarizing, here's what I would advise for others considering making the leap to HTPC:
First, take the issue of noise VERY VERY seriously. Decide whether you want a really small quiet htpc device -- follow Dirhael's route for a passive cooled small and "relatively" low power machine. And consider if one of those dedicated media-playing machines might be the way to go -- ask yourself if you really need the flexibility of having a fully desktop grade pc as your htpc.
Or if you really want a full power machine, think hard about whether you can't use a standard small tower case and place it somewhere out of the way. That would allow you to build it with normal sized components -- which would cut down on price and give you a lot more flexibility to build a fast quiet powerful machine.
I think if i were to do it all over again I might try to find a way to fit a small tower into my living space.
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If I sound overly negative, I think it's just a matter of getting my expectations in line.
I've spent a decade with a TIVO dedicated tv recording/watching device, and they have the user interface experience quite smooth and streamlined and well designed for a operation from a TV -- though i found it useless for listening to music, which is mostly what i like to do.
The HTPC-route, using standard desktop operating system, is a different experience -- rougher edges and all that. And I'm of course still getting used to the software.
But make no mistake, it is VERY cool to be able to have so much more control over what's going on and so much more freedom in terms of what you can run and how it works. Want to run a fish aquarium screensaver on tv -- you can do that. Want to run skype over your big screen tv, you can do that. The possibilities are endless.
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I've tried the powerful desktop version (same problem that you're experiencing to a lesser extent with the noise- had a box that had a quiet fan, but it was still loud), the less powerful desktop version (it was nice- still the problem of interface, but it was nice, and silent- but I ended up giving it to my son to use as his desktop since he doesn't play PC games), and the settop box (nice and seamless... but it's not a computer).
I'm sticking with the settop box version. The only thing I can't do on it that I wanted to do was game, and I don't really need to PC game on the huge screen. But it's definitely a decision that should be based on what your use case is as there are going to be trade-offs as you've experienced.
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Your $400 budget is the most difficult part for me to come up with helpful advice, i feel bad! :-[
When I got a new desktop this year, I transferred my previous desktop ( a beast!) for my htpc. I friggin love it. But yes, it is loud. i don't know how much an equivalent would cost, but most of the parts would be discontinued anyway, and it would be way over $400. but basically, it's a full desktop computer with an i7 chip and 4 GB of RAM, and a 2009-middle of the road graphics card. That's pretty much it. I paid $3k for it 4+ years ago, so it should be way cheaper now.
Now, my exploration has been VERY similar to yours, so I'll just explain it, maybe it will help. I messed around with XBMC, JRiver for a while. But I found I was too used to the desktop experience. So all these years, other than my experiments, my main setup is as a normal desktop. I use regular desktop software...Light Alloy, Daum Potplayer to play videos. An air-mouse for the cursor. A wireless keyboard (very seldom used). Directory Opus for the file manager. Now, for years I also used a tube-TV. The graphics (other than full screen video playback) looked awful, but it didn't bother me enough to change. Now I have an LCD screen and it looks BEAUTIFUL. Even 20 feet away, it's totally legible, with just normal font sizes. I highly recommend getting one, if you are willing to spend. So now, I'm not even that motivated to try other things like xbmc or jriver.
Everything is so fast on it. The control, as you say, is awesome. When i go to other people's houses and have to mess around with all their remotes, and tivo, and their cable "guides", and typing in the letters with teh directional keys, ugh, I get impatient. i love double-clicking and going from window to full screen. I love changing the volume with the scroll wheel. I use foobar for audio, love it. I know the computer is way overkill, so you can do it with much less also. but because it's overkill, 1080p playback is instant, i love that.
The fan noise is significant. It doesn't bother me, but now I just went and listened to it...if you like silence, yeah, it will bother you. But I looked at cases recently, even for smaller form factors, and i think you can find some with large 200mm fans on them, and those are relatively quiet. That might be the deal breaker though. and the price of course.
I think the most important thing I learned about my htpc experience is:
--I just like using DOpus for picking the files. I was really into the idea of doing the xbmc thing and properly organizing and tagging everything, but now I don't care. I'll only do it now if i have a lot of time to spare and am into a new project.
bleach...i've talked a lot. i should just take a video of me watching shit and post it.
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I spent half of today playing with 0.0001% of the 3rd party addons and skins and stuff for XBMC.
I'm probably just getting really grumpy in my old age but it is an impossibly chaotic experience trying to configure these things with a million different half-supported, half-broken, clashing 3rd party addons.
And that's despite the fact that the XBMC folks have created an incredibly helpful system of finding and using these 3rd party addons.
I think there is a real lesson here for coders, of the costs and benefits of designing a system that is structured to let a million people plug and play and every part of it.. The chaos and incoherence and potential for confusion is incredible.
There are quite a few projects like this, that have an incredible ecosystem of independent developers -- it feels like treachory to suggest that this approach results in something that is painful to use, but i just find myself wishing for a system that was coherently designed.
I'd gladly give up 90% of the power and flexibility in exchange for something that was clean and predictable and comprehensible and simpler to configure and use.
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I think superboy might have the right idea.. Which is to not do all this incredible struggling to get these HTPC tv-theatre-view-mode fancy and painful UI systems to work. That's where all the pain is. Instead just use a monitor/mouse/keyboard to select what to play.. Problem solved.
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I think superboy might have the right idea.. Which is to not do all this incredible struggling to get these HTPC tv-theatre-view-mode fancy and painful UI systems to work. That's where all the pain is. Instead just use a monitor/mouse/keyboard to select what to play.. Problem solved.
-mouser
I use a combination of a remote and a keyboard with a mouse embedded. Those lap keyboards make using the keyboard not that big of a deal.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823176018
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A few more observations after a week of tweaking -- first some more XBMC complaints..
XBMC is an amazing open source project and it's amazing that it runs so well on so many different platforms.
It's also completely fails the test of being a set top replacement for a consumer device like a tivo etc -- for all but the most devoted users. It is simply packed to the brim with an insane navigational system and large gaping holes in functionality. It is absolutely and inexplicably painful to navigate around some of these side and context menus and perform certain operations, and it's absolutely braindead about lots of things. It may be ok for movie and tv browser but it's fairly terrible for online streaming and audio music.
If someone unfamiliar with XBMC came over to your house and you gave them the remote, the chance of them getting stuck in some sidebar context menu, triggering unwanted commands, and becoming frustrated is a near certainty.
Having said all that, i haven't seen anything better. But using something like this really makes you appreciate the work that goes into polishing a consumer GUI (like the TIVO) to make it intuitive and comfortable. XBMC gives you 10,000 alternate unsupported abaondoned broken "skins" and it's impossible to navigate. TIVO does not let you choose the skin but everything else works intuitively. What would you rather have?
Despite all my complaining, I still haven't found anything better for use as an htpc set top box (mainly for music) and XBMC does have a very high factor of cool if you want to hack around on it, which I have spent the last week doing. God knows how much will break over time -- it feels fragile. But there are some fun things to be done, and lots to explore and customize if you are into that kind of thing.
Jriver Media Center is still on my list of tools i'm playing with -- it has much nicer out-of-the-box music support, and much more power-user friendly interface in standard desktop application view. However, it falls down miserably on the htpc television screen (theatre) view, so that's what's stopping me there.
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And now some more constructive general comments:
I've been thinking more about hardware choices for an htpc.
You can get a $100 brand new android-based htpc/xbmc box that uses little power, is quiet, and is all ready to plug in, to be used as an htpc end user appliance. No operating system to install, and presumably a lot less to configure and worry about.
And on the other end of the spectrum you can do what i did, which is to use basically a full powered desktop machine (possibly in a thinner media-friendly case as i have).
I've been going back and forth in my mind about what makes the most sense, and i don't yet have a firm view on what makes most sense.
In many ways, the full desktop-class computer approach to an htpc seems way overkill. My htpc never gets above a couple percentage of cpu use -- it's basically just sitting their idle and running up my electric bill much of the time. It's also much louder than a small dedicated htpc device would be.
But there are some advantages i've noticed:
- Very fast and easy cd ripping (and playing); i'm in the process of ripping all of my cds. Of course you could do this on your desktop machine and transfer the files since it's probably just a one time deal.
- The desktop pc can be used as a replacement for your dvd/blueray player. Most small dedicated htpc's don't have a dvd/bluray player (though see dc member Dirhael's post early on this thread for a great looking build that does).
- It's convenient to be able to run standard software that i am familiar with -- whether it be backup tools, exact audio cd extraction tools, etc.). Though I can't say i have any crucial software that i couldn't live without.
- There is some real comfort in not having to worry about performance issues and being able to run multiple processes. Though I cannot say if people ever have problems with underpowered dedicated htpc boxes.
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I've gone through both ends of the process, and I can say that while I had a desktop equivalent, I rarely used it to its full potential. For a while, it was fun being able to game on my 46" screen. But once the novelty wore off, all I was really doing was watching movies/tv, listening to music, and browsing the internet. And it was loud, even though I had a silverstone power supply and case, which are made for HTPCs.
My sub $200 mini computer was quiet, small, and did everything I asked of it. It played games, but not the more powerful ones. But with 2 24" monitors on my desktop, I didn't miss it. In the end, I was making excuses to use the power that was there, again, all I did was watch movies/tv, listen to music, and browse the internet.
My settop box plays movies/tv, music, and browses the internet. It doesn't require anything in the way of maintenance. It's quiet, and I don't miss the power.
I'm pretty much decided that for the tv, my use case is only settop boxes from now on.
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Sounds right to me wraith.
I guess we should really acknowledge that there are at least 3 different approaches one could take:
1. A minimalist, small closed set top box; these can be picked up for less than $100, do not have optical drives, are preloaded with software, are silent and low energy, and are intended to have just enough power to run their software; they are meant to be as close to consumer devices as possible -- that it, you aren't expected to spend 2 weeks hacking and installing your own custom tools. They usually have minimal memory and small hard drives, etc -- so you would plug in an external drive or connect to a network for large media storage.
2. A custom built small silent quiet htpc box -- like the beauty that dc member Dirhael posted about earlier in this thread. The goal there is to build a machine with the power you need to do what you plan to do with it. it can have an optical drive, large hard drive, etc. Whatever you need. But the goal is to built it as small and low power as you can live with to achieve a desired form faction, quietness, and low energy and cost. With such a custom system you would install the OS and software of your choice and maintain it -- whether that's windows, linux, android, etc.
3. A big full-power desktop class machine (fit into a small box). The goal here is maximum flexibility and power, in exchange for a higher cost, higher energy consumption and heat, more noise, bigger form factor case (perhaps cheaper components if you go with a standard size case). With this kind of machine you have the ability to do anything.. the question is whether you actually have things to do that will benefit from that much power.
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re: the small android devices. i have one (mk808b), it will struggle with true HD files badly. And playback of even lesser HD files like 720p can be a problem. I tried it for one day and never used it again.
wraith, i'm having a hard time with your terminology. what is your difference between a desktop box and a settop box? i consider anything that runs normal windows or a user-installable OS a "full desktop". are you referring to just the form factor?
my gigantic tower i use for an htpc is, for sure, way overkill and somewhat noisy (i.e. not silent), but it is using 5 year old parts. but even before then, I was using a desktop tower from 2002 (yup!). This is up until this year, 2013. And with XP running on it, it was equally powerful for most video and music purposes. because like wraith says, for video, audio, and internet browsing, there's only so much benefit to power. but the full desktop experience is still ideal in that you can install most software and it's very fast. the only difference between the 2002 and 2013 experience for me is that with the 2002 computer, i couldn't play 720p or larger files. but 480p played perfectly fine. even seeking and jumping around the video file (my true measure of performance for htpc's) was great. there's just something about a desktop experience.
i'll put it this way:
assuming you can play 1080p comfortably...i'd prefer a full desktop pc in whatever form factor and noise level, over any laptop, netbook, appliance-device, xbmc, jriver, android, "media player", etc. I don't even care if it's 7 years old. A desktop just has that ideal level of performance. And i'm willing to bet that no matter what you're price point is, for the same price a desktop will outperform anything else. The ONLY deal-breaker in such a case would be GUI. If GUI is important to you, then the other choices might be better.
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Going back to the issue of XBMC being a horrible mess (and yet the best out there), I'd like to make a recommendation/propsal for the next group that wants to make something better.
The most important lesson I think that needs to be absorbed is that there are two very different things that this kind of software is trying to do. And the reason they are failing so miserably is that they are trying to do both things in the same manner.
The First Task -- Browse and Play
The first task is presenting an elegant fancy large-font tv-style user interface to allow the user to browse and select media to play.
This is what we normally think of when we think of an htpc machine -- something you can see from 10 feet away and that makes browsing and watching stuff fun.
I want to browse my music collection by hieararchical folders and do quick searchers, and when i start playing an album, I want it to download some nice artwork and info about the artist and show it elegantly.
XBMC can be made to do this, in a reasonably ok manner with some effort -- though search and navigation (and bookmarking for later watching) and returning to where you were is abysmal.
The Second Task -- Back End Administration
The second task that these tools need to be able to do represents a majority of the work -- all sorts of utilities for scanning libraries, configuring options, configuring the user interface, etc.
This is where software like XBMC gets it horribly, horribly, criminally wrong.
There is no need to "skin" and have a million ways for 3rd party themes to deal with this backend administration area -- and the attempt to do so is cataclysmic for maintenance. And the backend administration of stuff is just terrible and confusing and inflexible.
The right way to write programs like this is to treat this as two separate tasks. A small focused minimal elegant front end for browsing/disovering and playing, with support for skins/themes, and good support for managing bookmarks and favorites, with a very very strong focus on making this a consumer-level experience. I should be able to give the remote to my mother and she should not be able to get lost or trapped or cause havok or want to kill herself.
The backend administrative stuff, the configuration screens, options, etc. Can all be done with a standard user interface. Should have nothing to do with skins or themes, should be able to be done remotely, does not need to have a theatre-style joypad/touchscreen interface, etc.
Such a division of functionality would go a long long long way to making this software easier to use, more powerful and flexible, and easier to maintain.
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wraith, i'm having a hard time with your terminology. what is your difference between a desktop box and a settop box? i consider anything that runs normal windows or a user-installable OS a "full desktop". are you referring to just the form factor?
-superboyac
What I'm using is the WD TV Live Hub (http://www.amazon.com/Live-Hub-1TB-Media-Center/dp/B004GK0GKO) (WD Link (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=570)). There are several out there like it... before this, I used the Asus OPlay (http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/OPlay_HDPR1/).
They're closer to cable boxes than any computer... thus set top box (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set-top_box).
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There is an interesting evolution of emotions that one feels when you use something like XBMC with a zillion plugins to access different online media -- one can actually have the same evolution of emotions when using some radio-apps for mobile phones.
Stage 1 is you install some addons that have thousands and thousands of different radio stations (or tv shows or streams), and you feel an overwhelming sense of excitement and wonder at all your choices.
Stage 2 is you start looking for something that interests you and you realize how incredibly hard it is to find what you want amongst so much chaff, and it begins to dawn on you that maybe rather than 100,000 stations it would be nice to have a top 1000 that would help you find some good stuff. And yet you still have hope that you are going to find some good stuff.
Stage 3 is the frustration that makes you want to smash something into your tv that comes when you realize that no one is making any effort to cull out the non-working links and streams, and that almost everything you try to watch/listen to either fails after timing out, or hangs the software completely.
That's the point when you would give your right arm for an app with 10 working links to some mediocre media streams.
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wraith, i'm having a hard time with your terminology. what is your difference between a desktop box and a settop box? i consider anything that runs normal windows or a user-installable OS a "full desktop". are you referring to just the form factor?
-superboyac
What I'm using is the WD TV Live Hub (http://www.amazon.com/Live-Hub-1TB-Media-Center/dp/B004GK0GKO) (WD Link (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=570)). There are several out there like it... before this, I used the Asus OPlay (http://www.asus.com/Multimedia/OPlay_HDPR1/).
They're closer to cable boxes than any computer... thus set top box (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set-top_box).
-wraith808
I see. Yes, then I suppose these are the middle ground devices between a full desktop and those cheapo android media players. You're right, this is probably the best all around value for an htpc solution. easy, plug and play, plays anything, cheap but well made, no headache, no configuring.
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mouser, since you are trying alternatives, give this one a short one:
get light alloy:
http://www.light-alloy.ru/download/
The reason why...if you want a file browser built for tv legibility, it has one built in. So if you open the file browser from the right-click menu, you will see it. It's a special browser built for large screen navigation. That's all, just check it out. I used this back when i had a tube tv and i couldn't read dopus clearly.
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There is an interesting evolution of emotions that one feels when you use something like XBMC with a zillion plugins to access different online media -- one can actually have the same evolution of emotions when using some radio-apps for mobile phones.
Stage 1 is you install some addons that have thousands and thousands of different radio stations (or tv shows or streams), and you feel an overwhelming sense of excitement and wonder at all your choices.
Stage 2 is you start looking for something that interests you and you realize how incredibly hard it is to find what you want amongst so much chaff, and it begins to dawn on you that maybe rather than 100,000 stations it would be nice to have a top 1000 that would help you find some good stuff. And yet you still have hope that you are going to find some good stuff.
Stage 3 is the frustration that makes you want to smash something into your tv that comes when you realize that no one is making any effort to cull out the non-working links and streams, and that almost everything you try to watch/listen to either fails after timing out, or hangs the software completely.
That's the point when you would give your right arm for an app with 10 working links to some mediocre media streams.
-mouser
lol...mouser. I wish this thread existing 2 years ago when i first started looking at these things. This is so refreshing (sorry!). It's weird because the xbmc forums, as good as they are, will never be this brutally honest, obviously. I'm reading all this and it's so exactly my same experiences.
A couple of months ago when I got my new desktop, that's when I first had the idea to use the old one for an htpc. But of course, my first reaction was, it's soooo overkill and ridiculous, surely i can think of something better. but I had already gone through all this xbmc stuff quite seriously.
but let me tell you, if i had a family, i would never get away with this. the setup is pretty damn ugly, very bachelor, techy geek looking.
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one more post, here is a picture of my setup. very crazy. you can see the tube tv in the back, which was just replaced this year. That huge tower is the beast, previous to that was the 2002 xp computer, also just replaced this year.
and on the screen is the light alloy file browser i was talking about.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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Light Alloy looks neat.
When my 8+ year old 31" tube tv finally dies it will be nice to upgrade to a large pc-friendly flat screen..
Another hardware update: I swapped out a very hot-running 2009 low-profile video card (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=4244.msg338367#msg338367) for a new cool-running video card (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0088TKS3Y), and the difference in heat and noise has been very noticeable (and even marginally better video performance scores). I'm much happier with the background noise of the machine at this point.
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Going in the opposite direction, a friend has built a A-class stereo system for about $10. He snapped up insanely great deals on 1970s to early 1990s top-end stereo equipment. Turntables. CD players. Amps. Speaker. The works. He could likely flip one of the systems for between $2-3k. He's building another system for me. It's just sick when he describes buying a $1,400 component for $1.50.
A lot of those components have all the inputs you need to connect to a computer with a decent audio card.
Anyways, just a bit of food for thought. If you can pick up a kickin' pair of JBL speakers for a few bucks, why not? The top-end stuff was made to last and can be bought for almost nothing today because people always want new stuff. Interested in new or performance?
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^ That's exactly what my friend does, and he's an audiophile and musician. Even on his normal gaming desktop, he's connected to stereo equipment for the sound.
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So..
What other gadgets, hardware, software do people set up once they have a working htpc in their living room?
Standard stuff is:
- Play music
- Play videos
- Watch/listen to live streams (so an internet radio tool/plugin, tv watching tool/plugin)
Installing skype with a webcam seems neat.
Some nice full screen weather tools seem like a good idea.
Nice looking screensaver (aquarium).
What else?
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mouser, was wondering what your followup thoughts are. My sister is asking for the same thing now so I'm looking into them. I don't want to build an HTPC, and her budget is around the same as yours. So after going through all this, what would you recommend now?
I saw some silent htpc computers on alibaba that look like you can load windows on it. And they're pretty cheap, like $200. If they can play 1080p mkv files smoothly...if it can handle an 8GB video file (2 hours), that would be ideal, but not exactly necessary.
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I do have some followup thoughts, but they're not very useful in terms of specific hardware.
I have an htpc computer that I bought used on ebay. It's basically a full pc, running windiows 7, in a case that looks and is sized like an audio component (though it is deeper than most). I don't even remember the brand except to say that they are now out of business. It has hdmi out and digital audio out -- but basically it's a standard pc just the form factor is different.
I run windows 7 with XBMC (now upgraded to latest Kodi (http://kodi.tv/) edition).
What I can tell you is that I am really happy with it as a component of my media system. It is a very cool thing, and for someone like me with a ton of music, it's a pretty cool way to browse and play music.
It is also fun for playing things like youtube videos and other downloaded videos. And being a full windows machine it's convenient that I can run any program on it, whether it's burning or ripping cds, monitoring temperatures, or playing web streams of any kind with the browser.
It sleeps and wakes up perfectly with push of a button, which is really convenient, and a wireless mouse+keyboard combo makes typing full text pretty painless (much better than trying to do that with onscreen keyboard).
Having said that, here are a couple of other observations: I intended to use the htpc to play dvds/blurays but gave up and bought a standalone blu-ray player. The htpc/xbmc will play dvds but it's a bit slow and clunky and awkward, and blurays wont play without buying some software. in the end a standalone bluray player was just more convenient.
As for sound from the fans -- mine is ok but it's definitely something i would pay attention to when shopping for a device -- to make sure reviews said it was quiet -- as that could be an annoying thing to discover if you bought a no-name brand that no one has reviewed yet.
Anyway, those are my thoughts -- sorry I can't advise on hardware specifics. I can only say that an htpc is a pretty cool thing to have.
Here's my htpc:
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A couple more observations:
Modern media devices now are all coming with overlapping services. My tv has a netflix/hulu/amazonprime app, so does my htpc, so does my bluray player for that matter.
My stereo receiver and tv can play music and video files from usb sticks and from network connected devices.
So a standalone htpc is looking a little less essential these days..
If you have a modern hd tv and you use the tv as your speakers, then you may be able to play any audio and video files directly from the tv and a usb stick.
So a big question I think when deciding on something for a relative is, are they a very serious music/media person who is going to want to be able to browse and spend real time navigating through their media collection on a dedicated device (like me), or are they just going to want to watch netflix and an occasional video and audio file. If the latter, then your best bet might be to simply make sure they have a nice big modern hd tv (the samsungs has nice good fast apps for netflix, etc.), and a big usb stick, and they can let the TV be their htpc.
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Looks like silverstone (http://www.silverstonetek.com/product_case.php?tno=0&case=c_htpc&area=en). For a build, I can definitely recommend them. But from a perspective of HTPC as standalone devices, yeah... they're going out in favor of devices that have that sort of functionality built into the firmware. So I've moved to having a WD TV (http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=1270). Haven't regretted giving up the HTPC.
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I just went back and checked out dirhaels post, that is a very slick build.
The request right now is just to play back video. I checked the wd live box, and it can play all video including mkv. Nice. Perhaps I should avoid the whole building thing.
mouser, that is good advice I think at this point. And tbh, i don't really want to build a pc again.
I hate hearing about the death of the htpc, lol. I'll never give it up. I'll keep trying to make it smaller, and quieter, and more powerful, so that will never end.
wraith, can you give me an idea of the streaming power of the WD TV? Does it have a hard time with anything, large mkv, bluray files? How is seeking back and forth, pleasant?
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I just went back and checked out dirhaels post, that is a very slick build.
The request right now is just to play back video. I checked the wd live box, and it can play all video including mkv. Nice. Perhaps I should avoid the whole building thing.
mouser, that is good advice I think at this point. And tbh, i don't really want to build a pc again.
I hate hearing about the death of the htpc, lol. I'll never give it up. I'll keep trying to make it smaller, and quieter, and more powerful, so that will never end.
wraith, can you give me an idea of the streaming power of the WD TV? Does it have a hard time with anything, large mkv, bluray files? How is seeking back and forth, pleasant?
-superboyac
Right now, I have the 1TB version in all locations but one. I have my less used stuff on my NAS (and all the music) and my more commonly used stuff on my the Box. Now, they're all over the house, so I get different response- it's based on reception.
I don't rip blu-ray, only DVDs as I'm trying to maximize space.
Within those constraints, the only time I've seen it have a hard time is if my other devices are having a hard time in the same location getting to the router. It does take a bit to buffer if I'm on the NAS, but inherently it's fine and browsing is fine... so much so that the rest of the family who wouldn't touch the HTPC (too much work for watching a movie) are using it all the time and asking me to rip more DVDs.
I use MakeMKV for the rips, and it works fine.
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thanks wraith -- actually I just looked it up, what i bought was a MainGear Axess htpc: http://www.maingear.com/custom/mediacenters/axess/
Perhaps I should avoid the whole building thing.
I think you've already answered that question -- building one is not just the one-time maintenance, its a commitment to maintenance over time and a real risk of headaches. Buy them a standalone little device like you are considering.
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Earlier this year, I replaced a desktop PC that I had been using as an HTPC with this Zotac ZBOX-BI320-U-W2 (http://www.amazon.com/Zotac-Celeron-DDR3L-1600-Windows-ZBOX-BI320-U-W2/dp/B00M2UKY1Q/). I paid under $200 at the time. It comes with a licensed copy of 64-bit Windows 8.1 preloaded on a 64GB SSD. It has 2GB of RAM installed and supports up to 16GB, but the since the installed memory is on a single DIMM with one slot free, you can upgrade to 6GB very cheaply just by adding a 4GB laptop DIMM. The pre-installed SSD is an mSATA card, leaving the internal SATA slot free, so you can install a 2.5" HDD or SSD for additional internal storage.
I'm very pleased with the unit. It's tiny, completely silent and worked right out of the box without any hassles. Even installing additional RAM and an HDD was easy enough for a complete novice. It feels much snappier than the nominally much more powerful Core-2 Duo system it replaced. While it may not be up to multitasking multiple browsers and desktop applications, it has no problem running any kind of multimedia, including streaming HD-video. The integrated HDMI port supports 5.1 surround sound nicely through my receiver, which is actually more important to me than video, and with 4 USB 3.0 ports plus Gigabit Ethernet, it can connect to anything I want.
In the past, I've tended to recycle older systems for multimedia purposes, but this has been so much easier that I doubt I'll ever do that again.
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xtabber's solution looks like the kind of one i might recommend to others.
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Earlier this year, I replaced a desktop PC that I had been using as an HTPC with this Zotac ZBOX-BI320-U-W2 (http://www.amazon.com/Zotac-Celeron-DDR3L-1600-Windows-ZBOX-BI320-U-W2/dp/B00M2UKY1Q/). I paid under $200 at the time. It comes with a licensed copy of 64-bit Windows 8.1 preloaded on a 64GB SSD. It has 2GB of RAM installed and supports up to 16GB, but the since the installed memory is on a single DIMM with one slot free, you can upgrade to 6GB very cheaply just by adding a 4GB laptop DIMM. The pre-installed SSD is an mSATA card, leaving the internal SATA slot free, so you can install a 2.5" HDD or SSD for additional internal storage.
I'm very pleased with the unit. It's tiny, completely silent and worked right out of the box without any hassles. Even installing additional RAM and an HDD was easy enough for a complete novice. It feels much snappier than the nominally much more powerful Core-2 Duo system it replaced. While it may not be up to multitasking multiple browsers and desktop applications, it has no problem running any kind of multimedia, including streaming HD-video. The integrated HDMI port supports 5.1 surround sound nicely through my receiver, which is actually more important to me than video, and with 4 USB 3.0 ports plus Gigabit Ethernet, it can connect to anything I want.
In the past, I've tended to recycle older systems for multimedia purposes, but this has been so much easier that I doubt I'll ever do that again.
-xtabber
Thanks xtabber and mouser. I think I am convinced of the zbox.
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well, i think we should distinguish two kinds of devices, that may have different roles to play.
You found the WD TV -- that will have LESS flexibility, LESS expandability, and LESS POWER (?) -- but it will be a set top box, preinstalled with software ready to be a media player with a nice interface.
I gather that the Zbox unit is basically a windows box, designed for use as an htpc. So you'll still have to install media software, show the person how to run the right programs, etc.
So for setting up a non-pc-savvy family relative, you might still have some pros and cons to weigh..
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well, i think we should distinguish two kinds of devices, that may have different roles to play.
You found the WD TV -- that will have LESS flexibility, LESS expandability, and LESS POWER (?) -- but it will be a set top box, preinstalled with software ready to be a media player with a nice interface.
I gather that the Zbox unit is basically a windows box, designed for use as an htpc. So you'll still have to install media software, show the person how to run the right programs, etc.
So for setting up a non-pc-savvy family relative, you might still have some pros and cons to weigh..
-mouser
Yes, less on the flexibility. It really depends on what you mean by expandability. If it's storage, then the answer is no. Less power? Than these zotacs? Not by much if at all, and definitely less noticable, since the interface is made for the power. I've had one of these mini-devices, and it was a lifesaver when my wife and children's mains went down... we just cycled them through it, and other than the fact that my wife lost use of photoshop, they were great for browsing and using office. But they were definitely quite slower.
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well, i think we should distinguish two kinds of devices, that may have different roles to play.
You found the WD TV -- that will have LESS flexibility, LESS expandability, and LESS POWER (?) -- but it will be a set top box, preinstalled with software ready to be a media player with a nice interface.
I gather that the Zbox unit is basically a windows box, designed for use as an htpc. So you'll still have to install media software, show the person how to run the right programs, etc.
So for setting up a non-pc-savvy family relative, you might still have some pros and cons to weigh..
-mouser
Yes, less on the flexibility. It really depends on what you mean by expandability. If it's storage, then the answer is no. Less power? Than these zotacs? Not by much if at all, and definitely less noticable, since the interface is made for the power. I've had one of these mini-devices, and it was a lifesaver when my wife and children's mains went down... we just cycled them through it, and other than the fact that my wife lost use of photoshop, they were great for browsing and using office. But they were definitely quite slower.
-wraith808
are you saying the zotac will struggle more with video playback than the WD TV?
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well, i think we should distinguish two kinds of devices, that may have different roles to play.
You found the WD TV -- that will have LESS flexibility, LESS expandability, and LESS POWER (?) -- but it will be a set top box, preinstalled with software ready to be a media player with a nice interface.
I gather that the Zbox unit is basically a windows box, designed for use as an htpc. So you'll still have to install media software, show the person how to run the right programs, etc.
So for setting up a non-pc-savvy family relative, you might still have some pros and cons to weigh..
-mouser
Yes, less on the flexibility. It really depends on what you mean by expandability. If it's storage, then the answer is no. Less power? Than these zotacs? Not by much if at all, and definitely less noticable, since the interface is made for the power. I've had one of these mini-devices, and it was a lifesaver when my wife and children's mains went down... we just cycled them through it, and other than the fact that my wife lost use of photoshop, they were great for browsing and using office. But they were definitely quite slower.
-wraith808
are you saying the zotac will struggle more with video playback than the WD TV?
-superboyac
Not necessarily. But in my experience, it was so.
The box I have is http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856119072, so my experience was a couple of years ago. But it was a bit slower to decrypt, and of course you had to put on all of the codecs, and it still wasn't enough.
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You could go with something like the Odroid-XU4 (http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G143452239825) ($74) with the CloudShell (http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G143599699669) ($39) to connect a hard drive and use that as your NAS/HTPC.
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What do you guys think about these alibaba products that have enromous specs and cheap prices? Take this one for example:
8GB RAM
intel i3
fanless/silent
~$300
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Either the picture is misleading, the specs are lying, or it will burn up on arrival LOL :) There's a reason for the specs on the CPU.
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Either the picture is misleading, the specs are lying, or it will burn up on arrival LOL :) There's a reason for the specs on the CPU.
-wraith808
I'm curious enough to give it a try. So small, so cheap, and great specs. it *may* die quickly, which is the only bad experience i've had with this kind of stuff. but i've also been very impressed by some of my alibaba experiments too. A few years ago I got a tiny little credit card size media player kind of like an htpc, and it was great. still works and can play just about anything under 720p.
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Superboyac - if you do buy this, please let us know how you get on with it.
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What do you guys think about these alibaba products that have enromous specs and cheap prices? Take this one for example:
8GB RAM
intel i3
fanless/silent
~$300 (see attachment in previous post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=35381.msg385685#msg385685))
-superboyac
Why not go for an Intel NUC (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=intel+nuc&N=-1&isNodeId=1) from Newegg?
Comparable prices and a lot closer to home if you find a problem with it.
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What do you guys think about these alibaba products that have enromous specs and cheap prices? Take this one for example:
8GB RAM
intel i3
fanless/silent
~$300 (see attachment in previous post (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=35381.msg385685#msg385685))
-superboyac
Why not go for an Intel NUC (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=intel+nuc&N=-1&isNodeId=1) from Newegg?
Comparable prices and a lot closer to home if you find a problem with it.
-4wd
well, it just seems like you get more bang for the buck with the alibaba options. the NUC seem to be ok...but the alibaba items sure seem to pack a lot of power in a small, fanless unit for pretty cheap. I'm actually a little curious how they are. but ultimately, i'm having a hard time comparing the specs and prices of these things. the cpus are so confusing.
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to point out some of the curiosity and convfusion...
there's this intel nuc available for around $300, with an i3-5010U cpu.
there's an alibaba for around the same price (it seems, hard to tell) with a i5 4258u cpu.
this site says the i5 chip is more powerful:
http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Core-i5-4258U-vs-Intel-Core-i3-5010U
on both, it appears you have to add the ram and/or drives yourself, fine. the alibaba one is fanless, the intel one is not. so these are some of the factors. to me, i'm leaning towards alibaba...i mean, i'm very curious if their device can deliver a great performance htpc while silent.
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well, it just seems like you get more bang for the buck with the alibaba options. the NUC seem to be ok...but the alibaba items sure seem to pack a lot of power in a small, fanless unit for pretty cheap. I'm actually a little curious how they are. but ultimately, i'm having a hard time comparing the specs and prices of these things. the cpus are so confusing.
-superboyac
Not an alibaba, but my foxconn seemed the same way- to pack punch into a small package. The power supply was where the problem was, however. And now it won't boot at all.
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well, it just seems like you get more bang for the buck with the alibaba options. the NUC seem to be ok...but the alibaba items sure seem to pack a lot of power in a small, fanless unit for pretty cheap. I'm actually a little curious how they are. but ultimately, i'm having a hard time comparing the specs and prices of these things. the cpus are so confusing.
-superboyac
Not an alibaba, but my foxconn seemed the same way- to pack punch into a small package. The power supply was where the problem was, however. And now it won't boot at all.
-wraith808
hmm...yes, that generally is the risk from these alibaba things. the quality is going to be a gamble sometimes. out of about 5 things I've gotten from them, one of them lasted (still there) a very long time...one was basically out of service within a month...and one was good, and then i left it plugged in for a long time while on (like a week) and then it stopped working.
so yea, there s that gamble. not sure where i stand on it! lol. i've never bought anything quite this expensive or "serious".