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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: urlwolf on February 03, 2009, 02:03 PM

Title: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: urlwolf on February 03, 2009, 02:03 PM
How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
In my experience (Ubuntu): a lot. You are on your own compiling stuff, in the best case. Or you just don't have some niceties, like flash.
On the other hand, I do need to address 8Gb of memory (or more) so I have to live with it.

I'm considering moving to win 64-bit if there things are more solid.

Anyone with day-to-day experiences? Which flavor of windows would work best on 64-bit?
Should I wait for Win 7 or even use the beta?
How difficult would it be to pimp out Vista 64 so it's not as annoying, and is it worth it at all?

Thanks
PS: I'd also would like to hear from the OSX crowd :)
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 03, 2009, 02:07 PM
I haven't had any major problems with XP64 for quite a while, and Vista64 does very nice on my laptop as well. There's been a few threads about the topic and some of the stuff still applies (shell extensions, drivers for oldstuff, a few apps/games here and there), but all in all it works flawlessly for me.

I'd say Vista64 (run through vLite (http://www.vlite.net/)) is just fine, if you can't wait for Win7. Wouldn't run the beta on a production system, even if it seems very stable - better safe than sorry.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on February 03, 2009, 02:26 PM
XP64 is very solid. Ditto for Win7 beta (but f0dder's beta caveat applies). Don't have enough experience using Vista so I can't comment on that.

IMHO: Using 64-bit Linux for anything other than a very specialized high-performance singleton server doesn't make much sense. And to really gain the benefit, you'd also need to code your application up in native 64-bit, along with whatever libraries it would call.

Still, I guess that's the price you pay when you're responsible for issuing the Launch Codes. ;D

But even then, I'd be more inclined to go with a 32-bit cluster or distributed solution if at all possible. So unless you have a very specific native 64-bit application you want to run, I'd stick to 32-bit for a Linux desktop.

The problem with 64-bit Linux is that it is not full 64-bit binary from front to back. Most of the applications, and virtually all of the libraries included in a "64-bit" distro are still 32-bit. So even though you have a native 64 kernal, most of the code that gets called isn't. And once you go that hybrid route, performance goes right out the window.

BTW: What are you running that needs so much RAM? (Are you responsible for issuing Launch Codes?  :tellme:)

-----

Sidenote: here's a good website for 64-bit info and news: www.start64.com

Check it out! :Thmbsup:

------

<edit -removed an erroneous comment> :-[



Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: urlwolf on February 03, 2009, 05:52 PM
BTW: What are you running that needs so much RAM? (Are you responsible for issuing Launch Codes?  tellme)

Just R (http://www.r-project.org/).
But in general, I handle large sparse matrices, and even in an sparse format, they take up a lot of memory.

So it looks that win 64 works better than Linux. That is all I wanted to know.
Still, I worry about the day-to-day. If I'm going to be a beta tester for every tool I use, I'll waste a lot of time.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: robinsiebler on February 03, 2009, 05:56 PM
Honestly, other than being able to use more than 4GB of RAM, I can't think of any good reason to switch to Vista 64.  There's the whole 32-bit vs 64-bit program issue which has made several programs less useful under Vista 64 than they would be under Vista 32.  And I have had significant problems installing/running admittedly older games on Vista 64.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: hpearce on February 03, 2009, 06:00 PM
in general I am happy with my 64 bit windows ... on ocassion there are programs I can't install.... I would say what is most noticeable is the lack of 64-bit compatable extensions.  Some of my favorite shell extensions are only available with a 32-bit file manager.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: mouser on February 03, 2009, 06:04 PM
If you have some old hardware (scanners, etc.) you need to make sure there are good drivers for them if they are important to you.  many old scanners and other specialty hardware have not been updated with x64 drivers.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: Curt on February 03, 2009, 06:05 PM
IMHO: Using 64-bit Linux for anything other than a very specialized high-performance singleton server doesn't make much sense. And to really gain the benefit, you'd also need to code your application up in native 64-bit, along with whatever libraries it would call.

The problem with 64-bit Linux is that it is not full 64-bit binary from front to back. Most of the applications, and virtually all of the libraries included in a "64-bit" distro are still 32-bit.

However, there seems to be some Linux versions running 64-bits fine:

In the beginning only certain Linux distributions were capable of properly using 64-bit systems,
 
-start64
http://www.start64.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=100&Itemid=61&limit=1&limitstart=4
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: KenR on February 03, 2009, 06:20 PM
I run into lots of problems with software on Vista x64. Software won't run, it crashes or hangs, features don't work, etc.

Ken
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: justice on February 03, 2009, 06:31 PM
Been using Vista 64 bit for several  months because I have 4GB ram and with 32bit I would only have about 3 to 3.5GB left as Windows will reserve the reset as address space  video card and other system devices. So if you have over 3gb of ram then 64bit makes sense especially on Vista as that's more memory to preload programs into.

I'd say for 95% of all users it's fine to use and I think people should move to 64bit as their RAM increases. The only 2 problem areas are sandbox software (which can't run with patchguard, so no sandboxie for example (waiting on Comodo DiskShield)- run a virtual pc) and if you are a musician or digital dj then good luck finding a supported audio interface that has drivers for 64bit - which I am just running into this week. Also unlocker doesn't have a 64bit version yet. Still working on that one.

But in practice don't let it stop you - 'All' 32bit software works fine, 'all' security software has version for Vista 64bit and 'all' games work. And no I wouldn't say 64bit is faster in practice.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: housetier on February 03, 2009, 07:00 PM
Here is a FAQ (http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/faq.html) that also covers Flash in 64 bit, so it would seem there IS indeed a 64 bit version.

In general, I had no problems using a 64bit linux; for greater stability I used a 32bit firefox, because the 64bit version of flash is not very stable atm. Firefox in 32bit runs very well on my 64bit system.

I only recently became aware I was using a 32bit firefox before, because my self compiled version is of course in 64bit where the 32bit flash plugin no longer loads.

(bloody flash)
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on February 03, 2009, 08:50 PM
However, there seems to be some Linux versions running 64-bits fine:

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to infer that Linux-64 is broken. I agree that many 64-bit Lunux distros work quite well. Suse has a particularly nice 64-bit implementation.

What I was trying to say is that (largely due to a variety of reasons that go beyond the 64-bit kernal itself) the expected performance gains just aren't there. And if you add in the current compatibility and driver issues that go with running a 64-bit NIX kernal, it's just not worth it right now.

I tend to look at 64-bit distros as something akin to today's crop of hybrid cars: they're fun; they're really cool; they point to where we ultimately need to go...but they're not quite ready for prime time. :(

Maybe next year. (fingers crossed) 8)
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: MilesAhead on February 03, 2009, 09:10 PM
I've only been on Vista64 a few days.  Like the 32 bit it runs the HD more than XP.  Takes awhile to tone down the services and scheduled tasks, indexing etc..

afa the 32 bit shell extensions, you can use a 32 bit file manager like Free Commander, or open 32 bit shell windows.  I have an AutoHotkey freebie that opens selected folders in 32 bit explorer windows to make using shell extensions more convenient:
http://www.favessoft.com/HalfShell.zip

Just select and hit Shift-Enter

So far it seems like I've run into a lot fewer compatibility problems with this than when I got Vista 32 bit in April 2007.  I think compatible stuff is going to flow because all the new PCs over $500 are going to come with 4 GB ram minimum.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: zridling on February 04, 2009, 09:59 AM
Silly question: why wouldn't you want to use a 64-bit OS with 64-bit CPU? Been running both Fedora and openSUSE 64-bit for months, without a hitch.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 04, 2009, 10:17 AM
Silly question: why wouldn't you want to use a 64-bit OS with 64-bit CPU? Been running both Fedora and openSUSE 64-bit for months, without a hitch.
If you don't have >3GB RAM and you don't have any apps that can take advantage of x64 (just having x64 version != taking advantage of x64) then there might not be much reason to go 64bit, especially if you risk driver problems or whatever.

One extra advantage x64 has is that a lot of vulnerabilities are 32-bit specific, and 64bit Windows also has the PatchGuard stuff which helps a bit more. Doesn't mean you're immune, though, especially not when still running 32bit software :)
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: CWuestefeld on February 04, 2009, 12:53 PM
At work we briefly used Windows Server 2003 64-bit on our development systems, but quickly changed to the 32-bit version.

The primary reason was that Visual Studio is unstable on 64-bit, and this is a killer for developers. Worse, running VS.Net and SQL Server Management Studio simultaneously (which is how I spend most of my day) is guaranteed to crash within several minutes.

I also found the hidden swapping of folders confusing, especially because they managed to name things backwards. And it was confusing to have different versions of .Net installed; you'd think you made a change to the machine.config, but it didn't have the expected effect; you'd later discover that you were looking in the directory for the 32-bit version rather than the 64 one.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: Darwin on February 04, 2009, 03:33 PM
I went from Vista 32-bit to Server 2008 64-bit to Vista 64-bit and haven't looked back. Rather than getting upset about the software/shell extensions/what have you that no longer work under 64-bit, I see it as an opportunity to streamline my operation. Case in point: XP 32 bit machine has 377 applications installed while my Vista 64-bit machine has 145 installed...

I went 64-bit because I am running 4GB RAM and object to (in my case) 1GB of it not being utilized/recognised by the OS! Besides, Windows Server 2008 was free and, when I realised that a lot of my software was licenced for "Home" use but not for Servers, I ponied up $70 to get Vista Ultimate 64-bit through the Ultimate Steal...

I'm very happy with it. If I still had the 3GB of RAM that this computer came with installed, I'd probably still be on 32-bit though. I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in performance (actually, the same applies to the 3GB vs. 4GB upgrade - in everyday usage I didn't notice a difference, but dammit, I have 4GB of RAM. I repeat I HAVE 4 GB OF RAM! Yeah, I know, I'm pathetic). The big boost came when I went from a 5400rpm drive to a 7200rpm drive. Zoom, zoom, zoom!

FWIW I use Vista 64-bit pretty much "out of the box". I've left UAC alone and have moderately tweaked the services that are running, but that's about it.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 04, 2009, 06:06 PM
The primary reason was that Visual Studio is unstable on 64-bit, and this is a killer for developers. Worse, running VS.Net and SQL Server Management Studio simultaneously (which is how I spend most of my day) is guaranteed to crash within several minutes.
Weird, I run Visual Studio 2008, SQL Server 2005 Express and the SQL management tool under Vista64 without any problems :)

The SQL stuff is a recent addition and haven't been put under much load yet, but seems perfectly stable. VS2008 has run for a while. And I've used various VS versions for years under XP64 without a hiccup.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: MilesAhead on February 04, 2009, 06:23 PM
Darwin I get the same feel using this new PC.  It's quad core with 8 GB ram but as far as surfing the net with Firefox or opening programs it feels pretty much the same as my dual core with 32 bit Vista.  Where it shines is running a video encoder for each core.  It's fun to watch Core Temp show all 4 cores maxed out with no fan noise!! It's not sports car fast, but once you get the weight movin' it doesn't slow down. :)
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: zajc on February 05, 2009, 04:13 AM
I'm using 64-bit OS for almost a year and I find it very very stable with almost no problem comparing with XP (32-bit).
The first problem is I must restart Windows 2008 (64-bit of course) every 60 days  :-[ because my licence expire
(I build my OS using this guide http://www.win2008workstation.com/wordpress/).
The second problem are drivers. I'm missing drivers for USB printer and USB scanner,
but I solve this by installing Ubuntu in VirtualBox and I'm scanning and printing through VM.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: Darwin on February 05, 2009, 07:49 AM
[*Barely* on topic - I mention 64-bit a number of times] Funny, I went along with a friend while he purchased a Vista Home Premium-64 SP-1 notebook for his wife last week (T3200 2.0 Ghz, 4GB RAM, 5400 rpm 320GB drive (http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10114113&catid=)). I was taken along to provide advice and insight, which was completely ignored... At any rate, she despises Vista - last night she was heaping vitriol on it because she claims it runs slower on this new machine than XP Home did on the single core (1.73 Ghz, 1GB RAM) notebook it is intended to replace.

I haven't been near the thing, but I find this very hard to believe. I suspect that this is a case of two years of negative press getting in the way of objectivity. Kind of pisses me off. When we bought the damned thing her husband insisted on going 64-bit and 4GB RAM (a similar model with 32-bit and 3GB of RAM was about $80 cheaper) over my objections that there ARE issues with Security software not running under 64-bit (and I knew that he wanted to run SpyDoctor as he has a licence for it and is very stingy), that she would never notice the difference between 3 and 4 GB RAM, given that all she uses it for is webrowsing, e-mail, and word processing. But no, he wanted to "future proof" his investment and go 64-bit. At any rate, sure enough SpyDoctor won't run under 64-bit and now they're lamenting Vista and want to put XP on it. I'm telling them to get rid of the crapware and let me direct them to some tweaking tips (Ed Bott and others), but they're pretty insistent... Note that they're considering installing 32-bit XP on it. There are so many opportunities for "I told you so's" at so many levels here that my head is spinning  ;D  [/*Barely* on topic - I mention 64-bit a number of times]
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 05, 2009, 10:07 AM
Fools :)
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: Darwin on February 05, 2009, 12:11 PM
Fools :)

Knee-jerk reactionary fools!
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on February 05, 2009, 12:38 PM
These are friends?
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: MilesAhead on February 05, 2009, 12:43 PM
Older USB devices where they provide the driver on CD instead of hotplug seems to be the only real issue I've run into, other than cleaning off preinstalled crap.

This little 2 PC setup I have works out pretty well because stuff I can't use on the new PC I can keep running on the old machine until the software is updated or I find new freeware that does the same thing.

I've given up trying to give advice.  People have their habits and emotions locked in.  One guy asked me to take a look at his PC.  He started the thing up and windows and dialog boxes were jumping around all over the place.  I asked when was the last time he updated his anti-virus database. He replied, "it came with anti-virus, I don't have to do anything."  I think he had the machine for about 4 years at least. That was the end of that diagnostic session.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: Darwin on February 05, 2009, 01:32 PM
I've given up trying to give advice.  People have their habits and emotions locked in. 

Sound... er, advice  :) I should have known better before going with him to buy the computer, but I am an eternal optimist and thought that years of my having generally been proven right where disagreements over computer issues had "sunk in". WRONG!

When he asked me last night about downgrading to XP I just told him that I'd forward some Vista tweaking links to him and that if he did downgrade to XP, to be sure to buy a 64-bit copy and left it at that. I'm pretty sure that he'll be installing a cracked 32-bit version, but at least I tried...
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on February 05, 2009, 06:05 PM
[... but I am an eternal optimist and thought that years of my having generally been proven right where disagreements over computer issues had "sunk in"

First mistake...

at least I tried...

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]Second mistake... ;)

Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: Darwin on February 05, 2009, 06:18 PM
Yup live and learn. Or, in my case, not...  :huh:
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: urlwolf on February 06, 2009, 04:00 AM
So it's still unclear to me how life under win 64 is.
Some people report no problems, some report lots.
In any case, which version (XP, vista, win 7 beta) do you recommend? This is a production machine, but the reports that the beta is solid seem encouraging.
And if I have to reinstall win 7 in aug, that's a small price to pay IF everything else is better.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: justice on February 06, 2009, 05:10 AM
Let's generalize / apply common sense:
XP 64 was launched at a time when 64bit computing was much less common place and was launched some time after 32bit as a seperate product thereforce had less limelight and popularity than the other two alternatives.
Windows 7 isn't even to release candidate status yet and the majority of software especially from indies will not have been tested for it.

Therefore the natural choice is to go with the current OS Vista 64bit to get the best result.With windows 7 coming people will probably focus on compatibility issues of that over fixing XP 64 bit. So W7 would be the second choice - but I thought the reason for this thread is that you want a smooth ride - therefore I'd only go for 64bit Vista or a 32bit alternative at this moment on a production machine.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: Darwin on February 06, 2009, 07:23 AM
urlwolf - live with 64-bit Vista is just fine, in my experience. My two-bits is go with either Vista or with XP - who knows what Windows 7 will wind up looking like?
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: MilesAhead on February 06, 2009, 10:36 AM
urlwolf - live with 64-bit Vista is just fine, in my experience. My two-bits is go with either Vista or with XP - who knows what Windows 7 will wind up looking like?

Yup.  And even little things you take for granted, like printing to a USB printer might not work.  I tried 32 bit W7 and it didn't like serving the driver of my USB printer over the Lan.  Plus when you see raves about W7 you have to remember the beta everyone is playing with is the Ultimate edition.

Whenever I decided I was going to install some Linux distro I always tried to find a hardware compatibility list to make life easier.  Same idea might be good with Windows OS.  Make sure you can get drivers for what you are likely to use.  Google around to see if there's widespread problems with that stuff even if there are drivers.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: OldElmerFudd on February 16, 2009, 11:48 AM
I've stayed clear of 64-bit mostly because of peripherals and software. I use high end scanners and printers for graphics work, and while they're in good shape I won't be trading up(?) to Vista or Win7 anytime soon. Same thing with my favorite software, like Photoshop 7.
I have CS3 for tethered studio shooting, but I do most of my work in PS7 or Painter IX.5. Until I need to do some serious hardware replacement/upgrade, I'll stay with XP Pro. After all, I already went through the business of getting everything stabilized with Service Pack 3!
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: urlwolf on February 16, 2009, 03:51 PM
We have a sysadmin at work and he's leaning towards Win 7.
He would have to deal with printer driver problems if there are any.
Other than that, I don't have high requirements for hardware.

I'm thinking win 7 could be the best solution here too.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: urlwolf on February 17, 2009, 03:41 AM
anyone wants to stops me before I make win 7 beta my main OS for the rest of the year :)?
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 17, 2009, 03:43 AM
urlworlf: https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=15107.msg151354#msg151354 >_<
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on February 17, 2009, 07:52 AM
urlwolf:  http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/16/2259257&from=rss


Draconian DRM Revealed In Windows 7
Posted by kdawson on Monday February 16, @09:18PM

from the just-who-did-you-think-owns-your-machine dept.

TechForensics writes "A few days' testing of Windows 7 has already disclosed some draconian DRM, some of it unrelated to media files.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: OldElmerFudd on February 22, 2009, 07:12 PM
We have a sysadmin at work and he's leaning towards Win 7.
He would have to deal with printer driver problems if there are any.
Other than that, I don't have high requirements for hardware.

I'm thinking win 7 could be the best solution here too.


urlwolf,

AFAICT, Win 7 is going to be an easier transition if (a) you're already running Vista, or (b) don't expect a lot of attention paid to fixing 64-bit issues. As I said before, my machines do quite well with XP Pro, but the OS is a little long in the tooth, as much as I prefer it. 
I do have concerns with Win 7's DRM policies; starting to hear some horror stories in forums. YMMV

Still, Win 7 will likely be my next major upgrade in OS, although I'll have at least one XP box around and dual boot XP and 7 at first. (That's assuming I can dual boot with 7: more horror stories, I'm afraid. Don't get get me wrong; this post isn't about FUD. I look forward to a new OS. I wait for the time when Redmond decides to build what Longhorn was supposed to be.

Just save us all from a repeat of Windows Me. Still recall when I eagerly bought the upgrade, installed it, went through it, uninstalled it, and took the upgrade disk into the back yard and chopped it to pieces with a hatchet, all in 3 hours! (shudder)

hth
2 penny Ron
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 22, 2009, 07:28 PM
I do have concerns with Win 7's DRM policies; starting to hear some horror stories in forums. YMMV
Yeah, those rumors are pretty discomforting.

(That's assuming I can dual boot with 7: more horror stories, I'm afraid. Don't get get me wrong; this post isn't about FUD. I look forward to a new OS. I wait for the time when Redmond decides to build what Longhorn was supposed to be.)
As far as I understand, the Win7 beta disables the other installed OSes in it's bootloader by default to minimize the risk (however small) of corruption other OS'es partitions... afaik it's fixable, and I highly doubt there will be problems with the final version.

I hope the DRM situation is either FUDdy rumors or something that's going to be rectified, since Win7 otherwise seems like a pretty nice OS, and I wouldn't mind upgrading from XP64 when it's released. But if the "all your files are belong to us" rumors are true, I really don't know.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: OldElmerFudd on February 23, 2009, 08:23 PM
I do have concerns with Win 7's DRM policies; starting to hear some horror stories in forums. YMMV
Yeah, those rumors are pretty discomforting.

(That's assuming I can dual boot with 7: more horror stories, I'm afraid. Don't get get me wrong; this post isn't about FUD. I look forward to a new OS. I wait for the time when Redmond decides to build what Longhorn was supposed to be.)
As far as I understand, the Win7 beta disables the other installed OSes in it's bootloader by default to minimize the risk (however small) of corruption other OS'es partitions... afaik it's fixable, and I highly doubt there will be problems with the final version.

I hope the DRM situation is either FUDdy rumors or something that's going to be rectified, since Win7 otherwise seems like a pretty nice OS, and I wouldn't mind upgrading from XP64 when it's released. But if the "all your files are belong to us" rumors are true, I really don't know.

What I've read indicates Win 7 takes the folder/drive where you install it and changes it to C:\ At that point, the original OS/drive (XP, for example) disappears, so you can't effectively return to it. I'm not sure if Win 7 has to be uninstalled to reverse those changes.

The DRM issues are still a little unclear, but, for instance, a user may no longer be able to record off the sound card unless Win 7 recognizes an identifiable tag of some sort. There may also be issues with granting big dollar software rights to phone home through your firewall, no matter how you set permissions. Just gonna wait and see what the final looks like (and maybe even wait for Win 7 Service Pack 1!).
Good old Redmond, they figured out long ago how to make us pay to be endless beta testers.  ;)
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 24, 2009, 12:36 AM
What a partition maps to while Windows is running has nothing to do with the partition itself. The issue is that the Win7 installer of course overwrites your MBR bootcode (like all new Windows versions does), and that it doesn't included previous versions in it's boot manager - but you should be able to add those by hand with the bcdedit program.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: hollowlife1987 on February 24, 2009, 12:45 AM
What a partition maps to while Windows is running has nothing to do with the partition itself. The issue is that the Win7 installer of course overwrites your MBR bootcode (like all new Windows versions does), and that it doesn't included previous versions in it's boot manager - but you should be able to add those by hand with the bcdedit program.

I am currently triple booting flawlessly.  I do not remember if I installed XP SP3 first or Win 7 Beta x64, but I am pretty sure I did XP.  I also have Win 7 Beta x86 installed and I can easily boot into the XP install using Win 7's boot loader, it asks for earlier versions of windows upon start up.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 24, 2009, 01:37 AM
When I installed Win7 on my testbox which additionally has Vista64, it certainly didn't add Vista64 to the bootloader - haven't gone through the "trouble" of adding Vista64 back, but it shouldn't really be a problem.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: justice on February 24, 2009, 03:15 AM
The DRM issues are still a little unclear, but, for instance, a user may no longer be able to record off the sound card unless Win 7 recognizes an identifiable tag of some sort.
That's not correct this seems to be a driver issue for a few users, nothing regarding W7.
UPDATE: As noted by Ars Technica and many commenters, sound capture capabilities will vary from card to card, system to system, so one user's findings may not bear out for others. Apologies for confusion or disbelief—I tried to word it more as a water-testing thought than the Gospel Truth.
-http://lifehacker.com/5154968/windows-7-seemingly-blocks-audio-capture
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on February 24, 2009, 05:23 PM
I hope the DRM situation is either FUDdy rumors or something that's going to be rectified,

Seems to be FUD. Turns out that whole "draconian DRM" post got pretty much ripped to shreds on Slashdot and the tech blogs.

Which is good. ;D
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on February 25, 2009, 05:40 PM
This just in from our friends over at Heise Online (emphasis added):

Link: http://www.h-online.com/open/Fedora-project-plans-to-use-64-bit-and-PAE-kernels--/news/112724

Fedora project plans to use 64-bit and PAE kernels

The Fedora team plans to optimise the Linux distribution's versions for various system architectures. The 32-bit version for the x86 platform is to be built for i586 instead of i386 as it is currently. Given compatible hardware, an x86-64 kernel is to be used as standard, even when installing the distribution's 32-bit version. Wherever possible on 32-bit x86 systems, the developers intend to use a default PAE kernel. They will continue to use a 32-bit kernel for the 32-bit live CD.

The main advantage of using a x86-64 kernel in a 32-bit operating system is the considerably larger memory address range the kernel can make use of, allowing for systems with over 4GB of RAM. Due to the 32-bit userland, users won't need special 64-bit versions of their programs. 32-bit plug-ins for programs like Firefox run without the tricks that the users of the 64-bit version have to resort to, for example nspluginwrapper. The Fedora Engineering Steering Committee, which decides on the integration of new features into the distribution, has accepted the changes proposed for the forthcoming Fedora 11.

Very nice! 8)

Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on February 26, 2009, 12:20 AM
Interesting move, 40hz!

This should probably work just fine. It's been my experience, though, that trying to run a full 64bit version of linux (ie., including userland) can be more trouble than it's worth. At least on gentoo, not everything is available for 64bit, and then you have to fiddle with running a mix of 64bit and 32bit software, which is somewhat more bothersome than doing the same on Windows...
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on February 26, 2009, 12:22 PM
Interesting move, 40hz!

This should probably work just fine. It's been my experience, though, that trying to run a full 64bit version of linux (ie., including userland) can be more trouble than it's worth.

I agree. But it does make a lot more sense to use the capabilities of the actual chip architecture and then do a 32-bit userland for all the 32-bit code out there. Or at least it does on paper. ;)  Neater, cleaner, and fewer surprises all the way around if it works. It will be real interesting to see it in action once it's out.

Best of all, we can expect to see Fedora's approach get quickly incorporated into most other distros if it shows clear advantages. That's the real beauty of Linux's open licensing. GPL may not be uber-popular with some application developers. But when it comes to system programming and development, it's almost like a gift from heaven.

To their credit, Fedora definitely has the coders and resources to pull it off if they want to. Guess we'll have to wait and see. The latest release of Fedora is winning back a lot of their old fans and making plenty of new ones.



Fingers crossed... 8)


Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: urlwolf on April 06, 2009, 09:00 AM
Just as an update for completeness, I went with server 2008. Feels solid. However, it feels like linux has an edge for development (more 64-bits dev tools, easier to find packages). If you plan to do say python on 64-bits, almost no 3rd party libs are to be found, it seems. Same for R (there's a company, Revolution R, selling a 64-bit of R!).

I wonder if really win 64 is a wise decision.

I just cannot find informed post comparing different 64-bit OSs for dev. purposes...
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: f0dder on April 06, 2009, 09:05 AM
I wonder if really win 64 is a wise decision.
It is :)

The Visual Studio Express editions are free, and while they iirc don't come with x64 compilers, you can get those from the PlatformSDK. Sure, there's a lot of closed-source libraries that aren't available in x64 form... but then again, there's a lot of opensource code that doesn't compile cleanly for x64 as well.

But really, if your applications don't need 64-bit, why port them? Most applications gain zero advantages whatsoever from a recompile, they only become (slightly) bigger and consume (slightly) more memory.
Title: Re: How much trouble is a 64-bit OS right now?
Post by: 40hz on April 06, 2009, 03:03 PM
there's a lot of closed-source libraries that aren't available in x64 form... but then again, there's a lot of opensource code that doesn't compile cleanly for x64 as well.


For x64? Heck, there's a lot of open source code that doesn't compile all that swell under x32 either. ;D

But really, if your applications don't need 64-bit, why port them? Most applications gain zero advantages whatsoever from a recompile, they only become (slightly) bigger and consume (slightly) more memory.

Thank you so much for pointing that out. People sometimes fail to see that newer isn't always better. :Thmbsup: :Thmbsup: