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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: Josh on December 19, 2007, 05:17 PM

Title: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Josh on December 19, 2007, 05:17 PM
The most current build of IE8 running in standards mode now correctly renders the Acid2 browser test.

Acid2 is a test that determines how well a browser works with several different web standards.  Successfully rendering Acid2 is an important landmark for IE8, as it highlights the interoperability, standards compliance and backwards compatibility that we're committed to for this release.  We are also announcing that IE8 Beta 1 will be released in the first half of 2008.  This is the first significant disclosure of IE8 features and standards support and we expect broad interest.  A Channel 9 video interview will provide further detail on this announcement.

As per usual, we will continue to collect designer and developer feedback to determine additional milestone timelines further down the line.
New information for developers:  One of the goals of IE8 is to support the right set of standards with excellent implementation and without breaking the existing web.  Last week, IE8 reached a core milestone:  IE8 in standard mode now correctly renders the “Acid2 Browser Test”.  Acid2 is a test that determines how well a browser works with several different web standards.

Source (http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/binkdotnu/~3/202969119/internet-explorer-8-correctly-renders-the-acid2-browser-test.aspx)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Nighted on December 19, 2007, 05:51 PM
Sure...but will it support animated PNGw (.apng)?  FireFox 3 & Opera 9.5 already do. XnView seems to support it also.

Example (http://www.gamani.com/apng.htm)

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edit by jgpaiva: fixed wiki link
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: MrCrispy on December 19, 2007, 06:01 PM
This is great news, but in the end, its not about standards compliance but having all the browser vendors (FF, IE basically) agree on which standards they will agree to.

We're at least 5 years away from proper support for CSS3/HTML5, if we ever get there. Till then, web developers will continue to write customized pages based on browser quirks. And frankly, a lot of them probably want this state to continue as its where the money is at.

And there's a whole host of emerging technologies such as Adobe AIR, the new Flash language, Microsoft Silverlight, and whatever else happens to come along. AJAX and Web 2.0 seem so old now :)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Ehtyar on December 20, 2007, 06:08 AM
I'm sure this will last a day...and a half...perhaps.

Ehtyar.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Ralf Maximus on December 20, 2007, 07:47 AM
This is not aimed at anybody, and thanks Josh for posting the IE8 update.  It's good to hear anything on this (apparently) super-secret black project from Microsoft.  But am I reading it correctly?  Basically they're pleased because... it works?   

"Dude, IT RENDERS HTML!!!  Alert the media!"

Yes, I know it's an important benchmark in the IE8 development process, but how long has it been?  5 years?  And just now they've gotten it to meet expected rendering standards?

Pardon my apathy, but really... do I need another browser?  It's like everyone's trying to reinvent the spoon here.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Josh on December 20, 2007, 09:20 AM
Am I wrong in that firefox still does not pass acid2? So is microsoft finally doing something that even mozilla cant do? I mean, to me the fact that microsoft can do this is a pretty amazing step given their past history with standards compliance.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 20, 2007, 09:46 AM
About fscking time.

I think I'll stick with FireFox though, IE7 is so much slower than IE6 that it no longer has that advantage over FF.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: justice on December 20, 2007, 10:17 AM
Browsers based on the current version of the Gecko layout engine, such as Firefox, Camino, and SeaMonkey, do not pass. However, Acid2 support is planned for Gecko 1.9, and so these browsers are expected to pass Acid2 once Gecko version 1.9 is finished. This includes Mozilla Firefox 3.0, which is currently in a beta release.
So seen 1bit it is a no, although the current version of IE7 does a worse job than the current version of Firefox.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Ralf Maximus on December 20, 2007, 10:20 AM
Give me one compelling reason to upgrade beyond IE6.  One.

(Note that FF is my primary browser; the only time I see IE is during Windows update or Hotmail sessions.)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: jgpaiva on December 20, 2007, 10:31 AM
So is microsoft finally doing something that even mozilla cant do?
Well... Not exactly. Firefox's beta) version 3 has passed the test for quite some time (http://ajaxian.com/archives/firefox-30-passes-acid-2-css-test), from what i understand. :)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Lashiec on December 20, 2007, 10:51 AM
Give me one compelling reason to upgrade beyond IE6.  One.

(Note that FF is my primary browser; the only time I see IE is during Windows update or Hotmail sessions.)

Security, apart from a gazillion things more. IE7 comes with Windows, so even if you don't use it, I don't see why it should not be updated, just like any other Microsoft app. Besides, Internet Explorer still gets launched by certain software or from certain parts of Windows (HTML Help), and you'll want to have the updated rendering engine around for software that uses it to show information from the Internet.

IE7 is not Firefox, but I think it's a great improvement over IE6, and I wouldn't go back, even if I don't use it. Besides, Microsoft trying to keep up with the times is good for that 80% of people or so that use IE daily.

I think I'll stick with FireFox though, IE7 is so much slower than IE6 that it no longer has that advantage over FF.

Did IE had any advantage over Firefox ever? (Well, maybe before 0.7 or 0.8 versions)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Ralf Maximus on December 20, 2007, 11:52 AM
Security, apart from a gazillion things more. IE7 comes with Windows, so even if you don't use it, I don't see why it should not be updated, just like any other Microsoft app.

Good points, but as I said, the only time I use IE is when running Windows Upate or checking my Hotmail account (rarely).  Is security a big deal under those circumstances?  99.9% of my web access is through FireFox, which I *do* keep patched religiously.

Besides, Internet Explorer still gets launched by certain software or from certain parts of Windows (HTML Help), and you'll want to have the updated rendering engine around for software that uses it to show information from the Internet.

Assuming the software respects my "default browser" setting, I usually get FireFox.  Even from Microsoft Apps.

Windows Help and MSDN Library *does* use the IE rendering engine, but due to its very nature they must remain backwards compatible.  If a help file won't render in somebody's straight-off-the-CD IE6 that's unacceptable, and MS knows this.  So it's not like a Windows .CHM file is going to approach the complexity of the Acid2 test or anything.

And I don't consider Windows Help particularly threatening malware wise.  Should I?
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nontroppo on December 20, 2007, 12:43 PM
A compelling reason to upgrade to IE7?

How about real PNG support, better CSS, and javascript improvements!? Those who don't upgrade to IE7 are ensuring the even more sluggish adoption of critical standards. Web developers still see large IE6 stats and keep the horrid hacks in place, the awful table-based mess of semantic offensiveness. Everyone should upgrade to IE7, and ideally also run an alternative browser as their main portal to the internets.

IE8 does Acid2 - congrats to the IE team, but let us note that Acid2 is only a subset of relevant CSS rules. Their DOM support is so atrocious it is not worth even discussing...
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Lashiec on December 20, 2007, 01:02 PM
Good points, but as I said, the only time I use IE is when running Windows Update or checking my Hotmail account (rarely).  Is security a big deal under those circumstances?  99.9% of my web access is through FireFox, which I *do* keep patched religiously.

In the case of Hotmail, as long as you take the usual safety measures in front of unwanted mail (and you probably do), I'd say it's not a big deal, or not a deal at all :)

Assuming the software respects my "default browser" setting, I usually get FireFox.  Even from Microsoft Apps.

Then Opera or my apps do not respect the setting all the time :(. At least, when I launch a link from a HTML Help file, I get IE7.

And I don't consider Windows Help particularly threatening malware wise.  Should I?

Not exactly, but security holes had been plugged in HTML Help in the past (there was a time Microsoft was constantly releasing patches for it, but then again it was in pre-SP2 times). I do not know if malware writers exploited those holes, but Windows Help had holes.

And talking about help files, checking the µTorrent help file a while ago, I came across what I feel is a HUGE improvement over IE6: page wide search. It may be a bit silly, but not having to select "Search down" or "Search up" is a godsend, particularly when I'm used to do that in almost every app (except in my Notepad replacement, which uses the basic text search built into Windows)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: vradmilovic on December 20, 2007, 01:09 PM
Then Opera or my apps do not respect the setting all the time :(. At least, when I launch a link from a HTML Help file, I get IE7.

It's not Opera's fault. HTML help (CHM) viewer is based on IE, which is the reason for this misbehavior. It drives me crazy, too.  ::)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 20, 2007, 05:35 PM
I think I'll stick with FireFox though, IE7 is so much slower than IE6 that it no longer has that advantage over FF.

Did IE had any advantage over Firefox ever? (Well, maybe before 0.7 or 0.8 versions)
Yes, speed. IE6 is much snappier than FireFox. It quite lost that advantage with IE7, while still being quite some way from the advantages of FF.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Ralf Maximus on December 20, 2007, 10:28 PM
Yes, speed. IE6 is much snappier than FireFox.

Really?  I've had the opposite impression.  One thing FF does that IE6 does not is render the page as it downloads, showing objects as they arrive.  You can work with a page before its finished rendering, even clicking away if a link appeals.

IE6 on the other hand seems to wait until the last moment, then renders the page all at once.  It's instantaneous, but in many cases after a longer wait.  Especially if the page as numerous links to PayPal, Amazon, or Google metrics.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 21, 2007, 02:57 AM
Ralf Maximus: (executable from disk) load/init speed, not render speed...
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Ralf Maximus on December 21, 2007, 09:34 AM
Ralf Maximus: (executable from disk) load/init speed, not render speed...

Ah.  Thanks for the clarification. 
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Tekzel on December 21, 2007, 09:55 AM
Ralf Maximus: (executable from disk) load/init speed, not render speed...

Ah, well thats a small distinction, since you load a lot of IE while loading windows and it sits in memory when not in use.  I think I would rather that not be the case and pay a few extra seconds loading the browser when I use it, so to me the  Firefox implementation is the advantage, not the IE6 one.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 21, 2007, 08:02 PM
Ralf Maximus: (executable from disk) load/init speed, not render speed...

Ah, well thats a small distinction, since you load a lot of IE while loading windows and it sits in memory when not in use.  I think I would rather that not be the case and pay a few extra seconds loading the browser when I use it, so to me the  Firefox implementation is the advantage, not the IE6 one.

That's bollocks, really.

Yes, the "common controls" that were originally introduced with IE get loaded at OS start, because just about every application nowadays use them. But which other IE components get loaded at startup? Internet Explorer != explorer.exe.

I've heard that argument over and over again, but nobody have been able to quantify it.

And more than a second to load a browser is *forever* when I click a forum reply notify link in my email client. Yes, I could mitigate this by using the firefox tray icon hack but I don't feel like doing so. Also, even if FF is loaded, once there's ~10 open tabs, opening additional tabs become slower.

But hey, it's still worth it.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: zridling on December 23, 2007, 03:49 PM
The best idea in IE7 was hiding the Menu bar automatically, using the ALT key to display it. I rarely go to the menus, and this saves valuable screen space. I wish Opera would do this.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Josh on December 23, 2007, 04:13 PM
The best idea in IE7 was hiding the Menu bar automatically, using the ALT key to display it. I rarely go to the menus, and this saves valuable screen space. I wish Opera would do this.

This quote is getting saved from you zaine :)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nontroppo on December 23, 2007, 04:26 PM
I wish Opera would do this.

Zaine, you can get a button to toggle the menu bar from:

http://operawiki.info/custombuttons#menu

Or, if you want to make your own key binding (prefs > advanced > shortcuts), this is the internal command needed:

Enable menu bar,,,,Menu | Disable menu bar,,,,Menu
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 23, 2007, 05:16 PM
The best idea in IE7 was hiding the Menu bar automatically, using the ALT key to display it. I rarely go to the menus, and this saves valuable screen space. I wish Opera would do this.
I kinda hate that feature, even though I don't use menus much. I think I could learn to live with it (perhaps even appreciate it) for my web browser, but overall? Dunno.

I absolutely loathe "hide underline until ALT is pressed", and how the heck do I turn that off on Vista? >_<
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: dlagesse1992 on December 23, 2007, 08:01 PM
I'm happy that IE finally supports more code, but there are a couple of other things to think about:
-Woo! It renders one thing right! How about the rest of the internet?
-Still not fun to use. It can take lessons from FF and its extensions to fix this.
-Bad interface. Takes forever to do anything. Weird layout.
-Ugly Icon. Needs to be fixed.
-Name: not creative enough.

I may be a bit critical, but I am impressed that the developers are at least trying to do something right.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Josh on December 23, 2007, 08:09 PM
The rest of the internet? I've yet to run into a site that ISNT A TEST SITE that IE has failed to render properly.

No fun to use? IE has been extendable since its initial release. The API has always been there and has been used by hundreds of thousands of developers. You can tie just about anything into IE.

Bad interface? Thats subjective

Ugly Icon? Again, subjective, but does it matter when it comes to browsing the web? Does an icon affect your browsing?

Name? Umm, sounds like reaching for straws to me.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nosh on December 24, 2007, 02:20 AM
The only reason I have IE (6) still on my system is coz of MS's underhanded approach (some links simply refusing to load my default browser). 
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Josh on December 24, 2007, 08:19 AM
Like what? What refuses to open your default browser?
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nosh on December 24, 2007, 12:58 PM
Clicking the "x new msgs" button within MSN Messenger, for one. I also do Windows updates manually and I had to use IE for it to work, IIRC. I've been using IE for that ever since so I don't know how compatible the windowsupdates site is with other browsers now.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 25, 2007, 08:21 AM
Like what? What refuses to open your default browser?
Anything using an embedded IE control + a few other apps. Some apps (including firefox and µTorrent) also specifically launch explorer.exe instead of whatever app is associcated with HKLM\Folder and HKLM\Directory... weird, since that actually requires more code than the simple ShellExecute...
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Josh on December 25, 2007, 08:56 AM
And that is the fault of IE how? That is the developer of said applications fault, not IE
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nosh on December 25, 2007, 09:29 AM
I don't think anyone pointed their finger at IE, more like the people behind IE - esp. when the tools that are hard-coded to use  it instead of the default browser are made by the same corporation.

f0dder, I managed to make a few apps that always loaded explorer.exe load X2 by modifying the association for the folder shell context 'Open' key.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 25, 2007, 09:31 AM
And that is the fault of IE how? That is the developer of said applications fault, not IE
Well, with the "uses IE instead of system default browser", it's the fault of IE... but it would have been the same with any other browser component, after all when you click a link IE, you don't expect it to open in firefox, even if you select "open in new browser window".

It's annoying nonetheless, when you click a link in PlatformSDK or whatever.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 25, 2007, 09:32 AM
I don't think anyone pointed their finger at IE, more like the people behind IE - esp. when the tools that are hard-coded to use  it instead of the default browser are made by the same corporation.

f0dder, I managed to make a few apps that always loaded explorer.exe load X2 by modifying the association for the folder shell context 'Open' key.
I have x2 associated to both "Folder" and "Directory", but still firefox and µTorrent choose explorer.exe...
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nosh on December 25, 2007, 09:59 AM
I assume you're talking about creating your custom X2 key (eg: Open_X2) under 'Folder' & 'Directory' and then making that key the default action, like it says in the manual. I was talking about modifying the 'Open' key itself to point to X2 instead of Explorer. I don't have the setting on right now coz I restored a previous Windows image so can't confirm WRT ut & ff. 
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 25, 2007, 10:35 AM
I assume you're talking about creating your custom X2 key (eg: Open_X2) under 'Folder' & 'Directory' and then making that key the default action, like it says in the manual. I was talking about modifying the 'Open' key itself to point to X2 instead of Explorer. I don't have the setting on right now coz I restored a previous Windows image so can't confirm WRT ut & ff. 

Ahah!

I'll give that a try later, thanks.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: assk7 on December 25, 2007, 04:57 PM
For me, new Firefox ver 3 , opens blazing fast in 7 secs while ver 2 (Official release ) takes 20 to 30 secs on my comp.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on December 25, 2007, 06:30 PM
Humm, I just changed "Folder" back to using "Open" as default, and changed "open" to use xplorer2. FireFox still launches explorer.exe. Renamed the DDEExec key as well, and still the same. Shitty coders.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: zridling on December 26, 2007, 02:12 PM
nontroppo, thanks for the Opera tip to mimic IE7's auto menu-hide feature!  :D
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nontroppo on December 27, 2007, 10:26 AM
you're welcome  ;)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Lashiec on January 22, 2008, 07:19 PM
Breaking news! In a effort to improve (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/01/21/compatibility-and-ie8.aspx) standards compliance in IE8, Microsoft reinvents the Web (http://alistapart.com/articles/beyonddoctype). The Internet breaks (http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/slipping_the_ba.html) loose (http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/01/ie-lock-in)

In related news, the HTML5 draft is published (http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/). List of changes (http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-diff-20080122/)

(6 links in two lines. Gotta catch them all!)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nontroppo on January 23, 2008, 10:24 AM
Ian Hickson's take:
If Web authors actually use this feature, and if IE doesn't keep losing market share, then eventually this will cause serious problems for IE's competitors — instead of just having to contend with reverse-engineering IE's quirks mode and making the specs compatible with IE's standards mode, the other browser vendors are going to have to reverse engineer every major IE browser version, and end up implementing these same bug modes themselves. It might actually be quite an effective way of dramatically increasing the costs of entering or competing in the browser market. (This is what we call "anti-competitive", or "evil".)
Big sites will become locked in to particular IE version numbers, unable to upgrade their content for fear of it breaking. Imagine in 18 years — only twice the current lifetime of the Web! — designers will not have to learn just HTML, they'll have to learn 4, 5, maybe 10 different versions of HTML, DOM, CSS, and JS, just to be able to maintain the various different pages that people have written, as they move from job to job.
http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1201080691&count=1

From Opera's Hallvord Steen:
Browsers will have to support an unmanageable and confusing mess of different rendering modes (and the PocketIE team will hate you for the bloat).
Because the META tag affects every part of the page, progressively enhancing such pages with new CSS features will be harder.
http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/show.dml/1688321

And more from Mozilla's Robert O'Callahan:
<META HTTP-EQUIV="X-BALL-CHAIN">
;-) http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2008/01/post_2.html

The webkit team also ain't drinking the coolaid:
So, in conclusion, we don’t see a great need to implement version targeting in Safari. We think maintaining multiple versions of the engine would have many downsides for us and little upside.
http://webkit.org/blog/155/versioning-compatibility-and-standards/

This is like an 8.5-9 on the web developer richter scale...
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nontroppo on January 23, 2008, 10:27 AM
And specifically related to Acid2 and IE8, Ian Hickson (who authored Acid2) says this:
It will be interesting to see whether IE8 really supports Acid2, since that test page doesn't include any of the special magic words being proposed here. Will they hard-code the URI? Will they check every page against a fingerprint and if it matches the fingerprint of the Acid2 page, trigger the IE8 quirks mode instead of the IE7 quirks mode?

Note Acid3 is also in the works and getting close to completion:

http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1200301306&count=1
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: justice on January 24, 2008, 03:57 AM
It's hard to see how it works out and whether or not this is a good solution or not to me personally. But ever since the development restarted on Internet Explorer the team and Microsoft in general have been supporting standards (at least minimally), so to me version targeting shows that they still don't think the web can be standard based. Or big corporate partners can't afford the cost of converting to standard. Still though I've not made up my mind on it from a practical perspective.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: app103 on January 24, 2008, 04:37 AM
Does anybody here really know what is required to pass the acid2 test?

Not only does a browser have to support the standards, it must also support invalid CSS code and render it 'properly'.

So pages that wouldn't be standards compliant because the code is badly written must look as the designer intended it, but failed to code properly.

This is a bit more than being able to support the standards.

A browser that CAN support the standards can still FAIL the acid2 test based on not supporting invalid css 'properly'.

Note: Some 827 people (rough estimate, contents may have settled during shipping) have written to point out that the CSS used in the test is invalid. This is deliberate, as a means of exposing the ability of user agents to handle invalid CSS properly.
-http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/

Am I the only one that thinks there is something a bit screwed up about that? That a browser can be standards compliant and still be considered not standards compliant because it doesn't fix a designer's careless mistakes when rendering pages?  :huh:

And I am beginning to wonder if the creators of this test have some sort of agenda, where as soon as Microsoft comes up with a browser that can pass the test, bad CSS & all, they are going to raise the bar, come up with a new test, and make them support some more bad invalid code in order to pass. What's up with that?

Like what? What refuses to open your default browser?
Anything using an embedded IE control + a few other apps. Some apps (including firefox and µTorrent) also specifically launch explorer.exe instead of whatever app is associcated with HKLM\Folder and HKLM\Directory... weird, since that actually requires more code than the simple ShellExecute...


Actually, it's less code and much easier to let apps written in VB open links in IE. It takes more code and effort to use the default browser, and when I was first learning VB I learned about this the hard way.

It was one of the reasons why I ran away from the language. Last application I wrote in VB, I had to add an extra module to it just to get a link to open in a user's default browser.

Too much of what Microsoft makes is intended to only support their products, and while you can force it to be friendly to user preferences, they don't exactly make it easy sometimes.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: justice on January 24, 2008, 05:45 AM
That's the way the specs work the invalid markup is included in the test because the browser should ignore it. Error handling is very important. However, looking for clarification on the issue, I couldn't find any discussion on this by 'well known' css / web standards people.

Looking at the Acid2 Guide (http://www.webstandards.org/action/acid2/guide/), quotes such as:
   Should have no effect since the object is inline (’height’/'width’ don’t apply to inlines).
seems to indicate that problems in handling these statements would expose rendering problems that affects the valid css. That would be essential to test against. Invalid CSS in this context does not mean custom elements but using them in the wrong context which can happen easily if you have a website of a couple hundred pages served by one css file.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: app103 on January 24, 2008, 05:50 AM
I was under the impression that the invalid code wasn't to be ignored and was to be 'fixed' by the browser to render a particular way so that less pages will break when a designer is careless and makes mistakes.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Dirhael on January 24, 2008, 08:07 AM
I was under the impression that the invalid code wasn't to be ignored and was to be 'fixed' by the browser to render a particular way so that less pages will break when a designer is careless and makes mistakes.

No, invalid code or declarations that the browser just don't understand in a stylesheet should always be ignored and never fixed by the browser.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: justice on January 25, 2008, 04:31 AM
Interesting take on the matter- will we be stuck with IE7 even when IE10 is out?

Immortal Internet Explorer 7
Internet Explorer 7 will be a permanent fixture on the web. [...]

When a user upgrades from IE7 to IE8, they will be upgrading from IE7 to IE7. When a user upgrades from IE8 to IE9, they will be upgrading from IE7 to IE7. Notice the trend. Whatever happens in Microsoft's browser life-cycle, Internet Explorer 7 will still be the default browser on a Microsoft Operating System.
[...]
Effectively, with this meta tag proposal, Microsoft have either absolutely guaranteed that they will remain the dominant browser on the web, or it has sown the seeds for its ultimate destruction. If it's dominant IE7 will be the instrument to hold back all standards compliant progress, just like IE6 before it.

Either way, web standards compliant web developers are no better off with this proposal. Which leaves us absolutely no reason to accept the proposal.

The only way I see to move web standards forward is to reject this meta tag proposal (and any proposal that compromises browser agnostic authoring), and then set a deadline for browsers to fully support web standards. On the passing of that deadline, no compensation should be made for browsers. They live and die based on their support of web standards.
-http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/standards/CostOfMicrosoftsMetaTagProposal
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: nontroppo on January 25, 2008, 08:20 AM
Sheesh, even Joe Wilcox is now skeptical about the Microsoft splinter strategy:
What are Microsoft's real objectives here? I ask, because to me they are suspect. Wilson argues that the new "http-equiv='X-UA-Compatible'" switch is a necessary compromise to ensure backwards compatibility while allowing Microsoft's browser to better adhere to Web standards. But the approach really requires adherence to an IE standard that benefits Microsoft's dominant Web browser.

I would like to see Microsoft educating Web designers and developers about writing to standards supporting any browsing engine. I find it ironic that by default Microsoft's Expression Web creates standards-based Web pages that IE 7 might gag on.

I ask: Is the IE 8 switch a competing browser kill switch?
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/web_services_browser/fliipping_the_ie8_kill_switch.html?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0000535

app103: being able to handle errors consistently in CSS *is* part of the standard:
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#parsing-errors
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: justice on January 25, 2008, 08:41 AM
I seem to change my mind on this every now and then, and am still quite confused.. but:

Seems to me the switch will result in better fitting websites, but not by using more standards. But I noticed this at the whole Eolas patent debacle: the IE team doesn't take enough responsibility regarding standards. Even though the code was fine they wanted developers to implement a javascript workaround for their own workaround solution in all their pages with embedded content. They didn't want to (or couldn't) pay Eolas so people now have to click to start embedded media. Even though it's a browser issue.

And the same happens in this case: if the browser vendor took its responsibility and improved its implementation, it wouldn't be the webdeveloper's responsibility if their sites written to standards (and valid) don't display properly. So the whole "the users have to be protected from broken pages" card is a smoke screen in my opinion.

Just be frank then: corporate partners costcutting is more important to Microsoft than the freedom of the web.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Lashiec on January 25, 2008, 01:29 PM
Yes, I think Microsoft is showing up with this move that their engineers are very lazy, expecting web developers to specify what IE must do when confronted with their page. This could be OK if IE was the only browser around, but this is not the case.

Besides, I find ironic that after the web started to move towards standard compliant websites, and IE stayed behind, thus forcing web developers to code workarounds for IE (and hurting other browsers in the process) or even dumbing down their sites with quite simplified layouts, now Microsoft expect them to do the same, but for compliance! It's ridiculous, there's a single standard, but Microsoft wants people to follow their tune, while other browsers had been implementing workarounds for IE (the defacto HTML standard) shortcomings during years.

I hope that after all the backslash, Microsoft sees this is not the right path, and either does the same as the competing browsers, or calls all the companies involved in the W3C to come up with a sensible solution.

Something that worries me is that, if they decide to continue this nonsense, and even if most web developers ignore them, they'll try to impose this "solution" by force, like making the future versions of Expression Web write this metatag by default to HTML files.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: f0dder on January 25, 2008, 07:22 PM
Lashiec: it has nothing to do with laziness, it has everything to do with politics.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Lashiec on January 26, 2008, 09:24 AM
I'll call my representatives at Microsoft, then :)
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Josh on September 19, 2010, 09:45 AM
HOLY NECRO-REVIVAL BATMAN!

IE9 now scores 95/100 on Acid3, better than firefox 3.6.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Stoic Joker on September 19, 2010, 02:28 PM
I just installed IE9 this morning ... While the UI is a bit too minimalistic even for my tastes, damn this thing is fast!
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Deozaan on September 19, 2010, 03:25 PM
Sure...but will it support animated PNGw (.apng)?  FireFox 3 & Opera 9.5 already do. XnView seems to support it also.

Hmm... It seems as though the latest version of Chrome (6.x) still doesn't support Animated PNG either. . .
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Deozaan on September 19, 2010, 03:29 PM
IE9 now scores 95/100 on Acid3, better than firefox 3.6.

I just did the Acid3 test (http://acid3.acidtests.org/) with Chrome and it got 97/100.
Title: Re: Current IE8 build renders the ACID2 Test correctly!
Post by: Josh on September 19, 2010, 03:35 PM
Chrome and opera both score 97/100