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Main Area and Open Discussion => General Software Discussion => Topic started by: 40hz on August 30, 2012, 10:33 AM
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There's a very sobering article posted by none other than Miguel de Icaza (Gnome and Mono project founder in case you don't already know :mrgreen:) that pinpoints rather precisely what the problem is with Linux that it hasn't successfully managed to obtain parity with Windows and OSX on the desktop. Definitely worth a read if you're a Linux user or spectator.
Link to full post here (http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html).
What went wrong with Linux on the Desktop
In my opinion, the problem with Linux on the Desktop is rooted in the developer culture that was created around it.
Linus, despite being a low-level kernel guy, set the tone for our community years ago when he dismissed binary compatibility for device drivers. The kernel people might have some valid reasons for it, and might have forced the industry to play by their rules, but the Desktop people did not have the power that the kernel people did. But we did keep the attitude.
The attitude of our community was one of engineering excellence: we do not want deprecated code in our source trees, we do not want to keep broken designs around, we want pure and beautiful designs and we want to eliminate all traces of bad or poorly implemented ideas from our source code trees.
And we did.
We deprecated APIs, because there was a better way. We removed functionality because "that approach is broken", for degrees of broken from "it is a security hole" all the way to "it does not conform to the new style we are using".
We replaced core subsystems in the operating system, with poor transitions paths. We introduced compatibility layers that were not really compatible, nor were they maintained. When faced with "this does not work", the community response was usually "you are doing it wrong".
As long as you had an operating system that was 100% free, and you could patch and upgrade every component of your operating system to keep up with the system updates, you were fine and it was merely an inconvenience that lasted a few months while the kinks were sorted out.
The second dimension to the problem is that no two Linux distributions agreed on which core components the system should use. Either they did not agree, the schedule of the transitions were out of sync or there were competing implementations for the same functionality.
The efforts to standardize on a kernel and a set of core libraries were undermined by the Distro of the Day that held the position of power. If you are the top dog, you did not want to make any concessions that would help other distributions catch up with you. Being incompatible became a way of gaining market share. A strategy that continues to be employed by the 800 pound gorillas in the Linux world.
To sum up: (a) First dimension: things change too quickly, breaking both open source and proprietary software alike; (b) incompatibility across Linux distributions.
This killed the ecosystem for third party developers trying to target Linux on the desktop. You would try once, do your best effort to support the "top" distro or if you were feeling generous "the top three" distros. Only to find out that your software no longer worked six months later.
Supporting Linux on the desktop became a burden for independent developers.
But at this point, those of us in the Linux world still believed that we could build everything as open source software. The software industry as a whole had a few home runs, and we were convinced we could implement those ourselves: spreadsheets, word processors, design programs. And we did a fine job at that.
Linux pioneered solid package management and the most advance software updating systems. We did a good job, considering our goals and our culture.
But we missed the big picture. We alienated every third party developer in the process. The ecosystem that has sprung to life with Apple's OSX AppStore is just impossible to achieve with Linux today.
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Read the rest here (http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2012/Aug-29.html).
:(
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What went wrong?
"It Sucked" :P
/me ducks and covers.
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What went wrong?
"It Sucked" :P
/me ducks and covers.
-f0dder
+1
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Part of the problem is illustrated in the comments, see how many people have commented 'but I am typing this from a Linux desktop'. If those people truly believe someone reading a Miguel de Icaza article counts as success they are missing the point of what success means in today's world (whether we agree with that definition of success is secondary).
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^ ;D :Thmbsup:
But kidding aside, I do hope people read the article.
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BOOM~!
But we missed the big picture. We alienated every third party developer in the process.
NAILED IT!
More good points in there, but that's really the major one. You have to attract developers to your platform. The number of developers on a platform determines the success of the platform. Our first big lesson there was Atari vs. Intellivision. Atari had more people developing for it, so it had more games, so it had more customers. Nothing has changed in the platform wars. The rules are still the same. This is why Microsoft bought a little known web browser company's product - they understood that the web was a platform.
I've gone off in the past with my blabbering and ranting about the "Linux mindset" (or whatever), and this has always been at the core of my complaints. I posted in the Developer's Corner a while back about how horrible it was to try and create a distribution package (installer) for Linux. God... Still haven't figured out anything sane. Maybe I should just write one...
Miguel is a minor diety. He has contributed so much to computing. I've spoke with him before, and he's really an extremely friendly and helpful person. If you drop in the MonoTouch/Mono for Android IRC you'll see him regularly. And if you participate, chances are that at some point when you'll be talking to Miguel. I have a lot of respect for him.
However, I don't think that Linux is beyond salvation. If people in the Linux community would listen to stuff like this, there could be change there and a greater focus on attracting developers to the platform. Linux has the potential to destroy Windows and OS X. It just isn't being taken advantage of at the moment.
In the movie "Megamind", Megamind has some keen insight... --> The difference between a villain and a super-villain is "PRESENTATION!"
Apple understands this much better than just about any company out there.
For the record... "command line" or "terminal" is as sexy as a gorged boar vomiting up rotten potatoes and sludge. And you still need to use the terminal on OS X... god... I was so disappointed when I got my Mac... I really thought that they had some better degree of polish... But that only exists for doing the simplest of tasks. :(
Still... Apple has some decent presentation. Animation on an iPhone/iPad/iMac is pretty damn good. It certainly beats Windows or Android.
Typically, when I look at Windows vs. Mac applications, the Windows applications are FAR FAR FAR ahead of the Mac ones. Much better functionality. What I've found is that the Mac takes forever to do anything at all, and forces you to take your time more as you are so limited. Windows lets you run full steam ahead. As a result, software on a Mac tends to have a degree of polish because if you're spending that much time on it, a bit more doesn't matter. (I'm guessing here -- but from what I've seen, this looks about right.)
I'm still rooting for Linux though. And still tied to Windows... dying to get off it...
I hope Miguel is being overly pessimistic. I really don't want to live in a world of walled gardens. :(
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From the comments:
In other words, "It's the apps, stupid."
If you build an environment that's expensive and painful for application developers then you won't have many decent apps. Should be common sense, really.
+1
What I think is funny is that backward compatibility doesn't have to be uninnovative. Figuring out a way to combine an old API with a new one and not breaking anything can be very ambitious and innovative. While none come to mind offhand, I know there have been a few rewrites of system components in Windows so that they are backward compatible and retain legacy behavior.
There, I've seen things like:
methodname
methodname2
I think hackers and/or developers embracing OSX reveals the singular truth about their interest in Linux: It was always driven by a kneejerk hatred of Microsoft. There is nothing on earth less open than an Apple system.
Pretty much. :(
Hatred for Microsoft: Haven't seen that with people who contribute.
Interesting. Dunno.
Thank you Miguel. I have been saying this for years. Packages are one of the biggest problems on Linux. I should be able to go to a website, download a piece of software and have it work.
I install an operating system to use applications.
Again, nailing it.
From Miguel:
I have never received a payment from Microsoft or Apple. If anything, I keep giving both money for their products.
No religious/hard-line/extremist group likes introspective criticism or anything that contradicts their long held beliefs. So the only possible explanation that you guys can muster is "how much does Microsoft pay you".
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I am not sure how it is now. Some 7 or 8 years ago when I tried Linux (don't remember which distro) desktop OS, I had to copy and paste 3 or 4 lines of code to eject the CD tray. I stopped using it from that day onwards.
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I am not sure how it is now. Some 7 or 8 years ago when I tried Linux (don't remember which distro) desktop OS, I had to copy and paste 3 or 4 lines of code to eject the CD tray. I stopped using it from that day onwards.
-sri
Ancient history. That nonsense has all long since been fixed.
Most of it anyway. ;) :)
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There's some big elephants in the room here.
Is no one going to mention how MS (and maybe Apple) worked hard to make sure that Windows was the only platform that ran the industrial *enterprise software*? Notice I'm not saying "apps" as in "app store cute little thingies". From what I hear the gaming envionment is similar.
A platform needs "anchors", it's the same way the best malls are built. Sure you can get those little strip malls that kinda sit there and be useful, but the really good ones are anchored by 1-4 big ticket stores that really pull momentum. I don't really hear a lot of high powered raving about "Macs". I hear "App Store" = Mobile small useful widgets. Oh, I'm sorry, that used to be called Shareware except now you don't get to try it for free!
If everyone is going to "unify", Canonical is raising controversy by trying to position themselves as the "Linux-but-don't-tell-anyone" OS.
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Is no one going to mention how MS (and maybe Apple) worked hard to make sure that Windows was the only platform that ran the industrial *enterprise software*?
-TaoPhoenix
Hmm...I guess all those servers and clusters and supercomputers don't count as enterprise... :P
And what "enterprise" product has Apple ever had besides a "me too" server I don't even know if they distribute any more? :huh:
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Hmm...I guess all those servers and clusters and supercomputers don't count as enterprise... :P
And what "enterprise" product has Apple ever had besides a "me too" server I don't even know if they distribute any more? :huh:
-40hz
Well, I meant more of the software package side. We all know that Linux rules for "low level servers". I am talking more about the $XX,000 packages. My own specialty is the construction package Timberline. I've heard the same complaint about high end AutoCad. I plead lack of knowledge if Photoshop Pro has a Linux version yet. I bet SAP doesn't. Or PeopleSoft.
Those guys.
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I don't pay attention to such moan lisa rants. I personally found no bitter experience on linux for 6 months of full switching. I can't imagine my time with OSX and Windows for 6 months without suckin at all. OSx and Win are crap for me, that's all. :p
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I don't pay attention to such moan lisa rants. I personally found no bitter experience on linux for 6 months of full switching. I can't imagine my time with OSX and Windows for 6 months without suckin at all. OSx and Win are crap for me, that's all. :p
-mahesh2k
Then you rule.
I 50% gave up on Linux because I can only retain tech details for like 3-6 months, maybe a year if I am lucky, and my last company never used them so it became one too many projects to keep in my feeble head. :/
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I am talking more about the $XX,000 packages. My own specialty is the construction package Timberline. I've heard the same complaint about high end AutoCad. I plead lack of knowledge if Photoshop Pro has a Linux version yet. I bet SAP doesn't. Or PeopleSoft.
-TaoPhoenix
Ah! Sorry. I mostly do the "plumbing" end of the business so I don't make it down to userland too much.
But you may have a point in that BSD (and later Linux/GNU) came into existence partly as a rebellion against all those 5-digit financial/business programs. So I guess there is a philosophical semi-aversion to getting too much into that type of development for most FOSS types. However, the CRM market does seem to be fairly busy for the NIX cowboys. And the CGI/MoPic industry is in love with Linux currently. Mostly because it saves them mega.
As far as the vertical app markets, I'm not too up on what's happening there. Most of the industry specific software is moving over to web-based apps so I think the question of which OS to use for that category of software is becoming more and more a moot issue as "open web" is now becoming the new frontier for the old "open source" crowd.
And why not? Seriously, most businesses would prefer not to have to maintain their own infrastructure just to host mission critical applications. Server rooms are noisy and expensive to operate. In-house IT staff and salaries remain a overhead expense even though the average salary has dropped significantly in the last five years. Who really wants to deal with all that if it can be handled with better flexibility and zero-time failover by SaaS providers provided the price and reliability are there? (Competition will make sure it is BTW.) It's where the industry is going. Mainly because it makes too much sense for too many businesses to do otherwise.
So I guess I'm saying when it comes to enterprise applications, Linux is largely irrelevant. And Windows soon will be. Which is why Microsoft is putting so much effort into it's cloud product line. I'd guess within another 15 years thin clients and a cloud infrastructure will be the norm for most businesses. Which will then lead to that interesting little paradoxical situation where only the largest and the smallest companies will be hosting their own IT. Everybody else will be contracting it out as if it were just another P&E expense like electricity or trash removal.
Gonna be weird. At least for people who used to do what I used to do. :'( ;D
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I've whined since day one (1) about Linux documentation and the inability of the developers to create clear documentation for new/intermediate users. 'Twould seem that I've been complaining about a splinter w/o ever bearing the whole cross.
'Tis to be hoped that enough involved folk will read Miguel's diatribe (?) and adjust accordingly ... won't be holding my breath, but I can [forlornly, mayhap] hope.
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Gonna be weird. At least for people who used to do what I used to do. :'( ;D
-40hz
Yep ... same boat. But can't help but think there's always going to be a non-enterprise market, and OS will matter there. A lot of Mom'n'Pop shops simply won't be able to afford the SaaS overhead. How do you think Quicken or Peachtree products got to be so popular? Really big players don't use 'em, they tend to roll their own, at least the ones I know do.
Methinks there'll always be a small to mid-range market. MS and Apple are always going to be selling to that market. To my mind, that's an area where Linux could be made to shine. I'm not talking about servers, *nix owns that arena. But desktop small-shop businesses are always going to be there, regardless the political/business climate. I've always thought that area to be a prime target for *nix developers: unfortunately, they don't pay much attention to my thimks :( :o :P.
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I don't pay attention to such moan lisa rants. I personally found no bitter experience on linux for 6 months of full switching. I can't imagine my time with OSX and Windows for 6 months without suckin at all. OSx and Win are crap for me, that's all. :p
-mahesh2k
Then you rule.
I 50% gave up on Linux because I can only retain tech details for like 3-6 months, maybe a year if I am lucky, and my last company never used them so it became one too many projects to keep in my feeble head. :/
-TaoPhoenix
The reason switch was simple is because I stopped paying attention to desktop app development (which is hard for many windows developers) and focused on web development. As you know linux and apple has lots of tools and support and community documentation for web development, it becomes easy on that front. Also stopped hopping for desktop apps like I used to do on windows. Instead of consuming I have taken direction towards producing in web development. I am taking work specifically in web development niche. I have less apps on ubuntu setup and that is why I am doing fine with unity as well.
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I'd like to (daydream?) that Linux-On-Desktop has "exactly two chances left". Of course, the problem with EXACTLY two chances is that if you ruin both of them, you're hosed forever, even if there is Wailing and Gnashing Of Teeth for years to come. Well, let's call it Two-And-A-Half Chances. (Movie Puns, go to the Humor Thread!)
The Half Chance is of course Windows 8. With a UI so divisive, rather than learn "Unusable crap" that happens to be from Microsoft, why not learn "Unusable crap" (notice the quotes! In my style it means context!) from Linux.
The first Big Chance is if China ever gets a grip and quits trying to lock down the internet, they could China-ize Linux into some distro and powerbomb the world with $200 machines with X Chinese distro that becomes the new lowest common denominator. Sweatshops, and the works. Suddenly even Canonical might have to get a grip if some Chinese consortium floods the market with 17 times their production. Then it will be the new DOS, and because the source is deliberately "not agressively copyright protected" (Go China! It's your distro, and if you Officially Don't Care, off it goes!) then it will be "that fourth platform businesses need to support".
The other Big Chance is if Microsoft somehow makes 8 too many mistakes and implodes and doesn't get a bailout. In a Post Microsoft World, sure Apple will be having fun with their cute mobile market, but that gaping PHB "no one ever got fired for recommending Microsoft" hole will have to be filled, and I don't quite think Apple has that locked, not yet. So then there is room for about a 4 year shakedown on the best Successor to Microsoft, and some distro of Linux might be able to pull that off.
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Now why do you want to have Linux on the desktop with all the other choices available?
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Now why do you want to have Linux on the desktop with all the other choices available?-Tuxman
Because the other choices are, for various reasons, getting increasingly less appealing.
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Tell me the reasons.
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^How about walled gardens for the users and closed ecosystems for developers for starters? Just the thing to destroy any real innovation.
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Closed like the Ubuntu ecosystem?
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Closed like the Ubuntu ecosystem?
-Tuxman
Ubuntu is not Linux. Even Ubuntu says so. :P
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Closed like the Ubuntu ecosystem?
-Tuxman
So just use a Non-Ubuntu distro.
MS/Apple must have a couple of strange patents out there that are blocking certain features, because I just discovered that at the low OS level, I only use the OS for about 15 things, really all not that much. But the base distros can't even make a Right-Clicker like me happy.
I'm dead center of a user that Linux should be able to make happy, and they keep missing the boat.
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^How about walled gardens for the users and closed ecosystems for developers for starters? Just the thing to destroy any real innovation. -40hz
Mainly the walled gardens. I don't like how Microsoft has started copying crApple with Win8... while I don't think Secure Boot is necessarily a bad thing, I don't like how it's being implemented, and especially not when Microsoft is also starting a (cr)AppStore.
I just don't see any viable alternative to Windows. Everything sucks at least one way or another - OSX is definitely a no-go since it's even worse. Every Linux distribution I've tried has felt sluggish in comparison (yes, also with non-free drivers. And I do want a graphical desktop.), and had various other issues as well.
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I'm dead center of a user that Linux should be able to make happy, and they keep missing the boat.
-TaoPhoenix
And therein lies the problem. There is no single "Linux." And the "they" who are involved in it's development are both numerous and divergent in their goals. And not everybody playing the game is interested in playing fairly. Or even rationally. These are points de Icaza discusses in his blog post.
From my perspective it's amazing that the bloody thing boots at all. Especially when you consider how the GNU/Linux open development model is probably one of the least efficient methods (except for a few rare Cinderella stories) of software development out there.
Remove financial incentives from the mix and you need to expect seeing developers insisting on their own agendas and priorities. "Free" in the F/OSS world is often explained as "Free as in speech." I think a better characterization is more along the lines of "You don't pay me - and you're not my boss. So don't tell me what to do!"
Ain't nobody in the world so "free" as the person who makes the time to do something and not need to get paid for doing it.
8)
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and I don't quite think Apple has that locked, not yet.
Closed hardware. Closed software. Patent P###y company and Only thing unlocked about them is their preaching of open web standards.
Reminds me of Fight-club's dialogue it was something like - "people spend their life working and ending up buying things they don't need". Catch here is that apple offering people glitter stuff. And linux or insert any other open source free stuff comes across as an alternative. Low cost. Less headache. Freedom comes with these alternatives that apple and windows don't give it to you. The point about linux or open source is not to replace the mainstream brands but to offer people the same experience without them having to cut leg and arm for it. Linux does just that. It's not some brands property to use linux to replace apple and windows. It is made to offer people freedom. Those who love freedom, know how to get it. Those who love walled garden, they'll pay for it.
And ubuntu being a closed ecosystem is another joke or maybe linux hatred for the sake of it. :p
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Reminds me of Fight-club's dialogue it was something like - "people spend their life working and ending up buying things they don't need".-mahesh2k
"working jobs we hate so we can buy sh!t we don't need" :)
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If anyone has kept up with current trends in development, you know that the "open web" is a complete joke.
Companies are carving out terrortory (no typo) to move applications to HTML/CSS/JavaScript and into walled gardens. They are offering SDKs and APIs that lock developers into their own ecosystem (financial servitude). HTML5 is not going to make the web free - it is going to be used as a tool to lock in developers and users.
For the most obvious examples, look at mobile development. A large number of applications are nothing more than web pages. This is particularly evident in games.
Meh... Lemmings. Cliff. Sick producers. The conclusion is pretty obvious.
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The point about linux or open source is not to replace the mainstream brands but to offer people the same experience without them having to cut leg and arm for it.
-mahesh2k
+1. Something most people (including some notables in the Linux community) miss: Linux is not about "winning" or "dominating." It's about providing the user a better alternative than just saying: "none of the above."
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The point about linux or open source is not to replace the mainstream brands but to offer people the same experience without them having to cut leg and arm for it.
-mahesh2k
Something most people (including some notables in the Linux community) miss: Linux is not about "winning" or "dominating." It's about providing the user a better alternative than just saying: "none of the above."
-40hz
Reminds me of Yoda - "No. There is another..." :D
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The point about linux or open source is not to replace the mainstream brands but to offer people the same experience without them having to cut leg and arm for it.
-mahesh2k
Something most people (including some notables in the Linux community) miss: Linux is not about "winning" or "dominating." It's about providing the user a better alternative than just saying: "none of the above."
-40hz
Reminds me of Yoda - "No. There is another..." :D
-Renegade
Yeah. Too bad for Luke that svelte little hottie in the equation turned out to be his sister huh? ;D
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So just use a Non-Ubuntu distro.
-TaoPhoenix
Most notable distributors are similar.
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Oh, I'm sorry, that used to be called Shareware except now you don't get to try it for free!
-TaoPhoenix
A little different from shareware in the classical sense if you stick to what apps represented to get Apple to the place that it is. The whole thing has been a bit muddled, but the two come from different places and different thought processes.
Most shareware is meant to build something- where the concept of Apps is meant to be the latest cash in scheme. "I'll make a .99 app and sell a million copies and retire"
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"working jobs we hate so we can buy sh!t we don't need"
This. Thanks fodder. :)
If anyone has kept up with current trends in development, you know that the "open web" is a complete joke.
True. This is the reason I always check the license of the library before using it. If it's not GPL, MIT or Mozilla or Apache, it's going to be something fishy.
Agree on apps being webpages. App stores are overflowing with the apps for websites. I wonder how come people are not just using RSS readers instead. Most of the apps made by news or content websites offer nothing more than that.
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If it's not GPL, MIT or Mozilla or Apache, it's going to be something fishy.
-mahesh2k
There are other good licenses as well. I think my favourite is the WTFPL. ;D
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The WTFPL is a rephrased BSD license, basically. I wonder why people always forget that one.
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Do What The Fuck You Want To Public License
Author Sam Hocevar
Copyleft No
;)
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The WTFPL is a rephrased BSD license, basically. I wonder why people always forget that one.
-Tuxman
I wonder why anybody would consider that important? :)
Besides, when it comes to legal language, any attorney will tell you there's no such thing as "rephrased." Legal wording is legal wording. Period. Change a single word in a existing legal document at your peril. One minor edit or word substitution can radically change things.
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I wonder why anybody would consider that important? :)
-40hz
Sure thing Linux fanboys don't.
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I wonder why anybody would consider that important? :)
-40hz
Sure thing Linux fanboys don't.
-Tuxman
Anytime you're done trolling and flamebaiting would be fine. :P
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(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/5Large/TFR1E0.gif)
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The WTFPL is a rephrased BSD license, basically. I wonder why people always forget that one.
-Tuxman
But it's still a heck of a lot more fun than any other license out there~! ;D
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I think mahesh2k nailed it. What desktop? It's 2012 and it is now the place at which I spend the least computing time. My [mobile] "devices" are all running Linux in some form, as is my latest i7 desktop build. Fortunately, my computing life became an internet life years ago. The desktop is incidental to my needs, especially with regard to work and travel. Get me to a browser and I can access and share everything I need/want on company servers and, more personally, on my google account/s.
Point is, someone explain why I would need Windows or OSX?
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Because Linux is a system for bumptious kids while Windows is a system to work with.
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why I would need Windows or OSX?
Honestly, you don't need crappy windows. I used OSX and Linux and they don't show performance issues like windows. Not even windows 7 solved performance issue problem. More you use windows, less usable it becomes, after you add more data, reg entries and stuff. Those who are using Visual studio knows Why I am saying this, because microsoft's own programs make the system unusable.
On the other hand, OSX based on unix is perfectly fine. Doesn't break or gets crashed with official softwares and upgrades. Linux is always better option but commercial apps for windows are not yet in for linux. So you have either OSX or windows option in some cases. Rest of the hatred bigotry for any OS should be ignored.
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More you use windows, less usable it becomes-mahesh2k
Bullshit. That urban myth is not true anymore since... uhm... Windows Me? Or Windows 98?
Of course a system with a lot of auto-start entries will start slower.
Even Linux.
Now what?
On the other hand, OSX based on unix is perfectly fine.-mahesh2k
OSX is not based on Unix, it only uses parts of the FreeBSD code. So does Windows.
Doesn't break or gets crashed with official softwares and upgrades.-mahesh2k
And has most security flaws of all major operating systems according to Secunia. Great.
Linux is always better option-mahesh2k
Why?
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Bullshit. That urban myth is not true anymore since... uhm..
Am I supposed to reply to flamebaits? I mean give me one good reason why I should respond to your bigotry towards linux or lurve for windows that comes out because you hate linux and lurve BSD?
Wish mouser had ignore option on forum.
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I don't hate Linux. Your assumptions on its advantages are plain wrong, that's all.
Oh, right: Call it a flamebait when someone points out your mistakes. Well played.
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I don't hate Linux.
Spending time on every linux thread posting anti-linux commentary with SO called BSD lurve and Windows FACTS isn't hatred. Oops, I took bait.
Mistakes ? *nods* :D
I am done. Keep playing.
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The mistakes you continuously ignored and still do.
Dude, I am Tuxman. Don't think I hate it. I just don't fanboy it.
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The mistakes you continuously ignored and still do.
Dude, I am Tuxman. Don't think I hate it. I just don't fanboy it.
-Tuxman
Actually, as a moderator, the trolling you do in most of these threads is starting to annoy me as well....Just sayin...
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:P
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Actually, as a moderator, you get me wrong....Just sayin...
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Actually, as a moderator, you get me wrong....Just sayin...
-Tuxman
@T-Man: Perhaps several of us do?
Maybe you could work on your presentation skills a bit so we don't come away with the wrong impression; and we can work on our interpretive skills a bit so we don't get the wrong impression?
This is DoCo. We're all in this together. And none of us really have to be here.
Just sayin'... ;) :)
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Yep, we are together, and as such it is foolish to call people here a troll just because they don't follow recent hypes.
See, even asking "Why?" as a reply to the statement "Linux is better" is considered "trolling" here. The young internet generation does not know real trolling anymore.
It is not always my intention to make fun of people because they use Linsux, SackOS, BSDumb or Windoze (look, that works for quite everything!) or whatever the currently hyped operating system is. All (almost) I have a serious problem with are people who try to evangelize other users for their own system without real arguments.
mahesh2k tried, I asked why, he called me a troll.
Hey, moderator, someone here does not follow the hype. Ban him!
I am pretty sure I am here because DonationCoder is usually open for technical discussions. I did not know it is against the board rules to question the advantages of Linux and OSX. Sorry, must have read them wrong.
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mahesh2k tried, I asked why, he called me a troll.
Because you are. You never explained yourself about your views, you pushed your observation. You attacked others with calling them fanboys when you came out same trolling fanboyish excuses in almost every thread. You just made attacks on people and presented so called FACTS which are mere observation. All of your so-called facts are just your observation. Live with it. Just like rest of us have our own regarding other OS. If it bites you so much to read others views and get hurt with assumption that others are evangelizing or fanboying about it, better not read their views. You are doing no good by attacking others. Yes, you are attacking others. If you can't see it then then that's your problem.
This is the reason I wanted ignore button.
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You never explained yourself about your views, you pushed your observation.-mahesh2k
Oh, my views should be known from what I post.
You just made attacks on people-mahesh2k
Vice versa.
and presented so called FACTS which are mere observation.-mahesh2k
Nope, they're facts. Things I don't know for sure are usually stated as a question, like: Why?
(What about an answer instead of arguing with me by the way?)
All of your so-called facts are just your observation. Live with it.-mahesh2k
So "Linux is always better option" is what, precisely?
Right: just your observation. Live with it.
But don't condemn me for not sharing it.
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I am pretty sure I am here because DonationCoder is usually open for technical discussions. I did not know it is against the board rules to question the advantages of Linux and OSX. Sorry, must have read them wrong.
-Tuxman
As 40hz said- it's the presentation, not the comment. When you say...
Bullshit. That urban myth is not true anymore since... uhm... Windows Me? Or Windows 98?
Of course a system with a lot of auto-start entries will start slower.
Even Linux.
Now what?
-Tuxman
Most people are going to take that as a bit condescending and thus... flamebait. If you'd leave it to the arguments rather than adding on the snide finishers (you are pretty good at 'witty' repartee), then I believe that you'd find the audience more receptive to your arguments.
From Debate Ideas and Suggestions:
6. Attack the idea not the person.
16. Smile when disagreeing.
19. Avoid bickering, quarreling, and wrangling.
20. Watch your tone of voice.
22. Keep your perspective - You're just debating.
You need to be very polite when disagreeing with someone in English, even someone you know quite well.
With someone you know very well, you can disagree more directly.
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Well, from my experience with both Windows and Linux on the desktop and on the server, I agree with Tuxman (but only a bit). The servers I run that give me no headache in any kind of way are the ones that run on Linux (Ubuntu server edition (without any graphical shell)). These are fast and very, very reliable. Windows Server is solid, but not nearly as reliable and require a lot more maintenance in comparison with the Linux ones.
All the PC's that were running Linux on their desktop have been phased out. Too problematic (granted, I had to use CentOS 4.0 and 5.0, you should not want to do that to your worst enemy) and for my intends and purposes not cost effective. After some security tweaks the Windows desktop PC's (XP and Win7) I have nearly as solid as Windows Server editions and are way more productive to me (Directory Opus version 9 or 10 is essential to my workflow) than Linux ever was.
The only experience I have with BSD is building a router PC from very old parts I still had laying around (286, 16Mb). It (only) took that PC 3 full days to compile/install BSD. Also very reliable for the six months of "life" the processor still had left in it.
As a one-man-show I could not find the time to continue with the BSD route though. As I already have very high reliability with Linux (and Windows is not doing too bad either) I could not
find sufficient reason to get more/better acquainted with BSD. Too much differences for too little gain in my case.
My :two:
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Right: just your observation. Live with it.
I am living with it actually. So are you going to stop attacking me and others on every linux thread for our opinion with your so-called FACTS and BSD lurve? That would be good for DC's forum peace.
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Less attacking and more answering my questions ("Why?") would be good for the forum peace too, pal.
Shades: Tried PC-BSD? :D
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Less attacking and more answering my questions ("Why?") would be good for the forum peace too, pal.
As I said, I am entitled to my opinion and I am not obliged to answer your question. You can continue with your attacks.
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FWIW I've had very high reliability with Windows, Linux and BSD in the server environment. When problems occurred they were caused by server applications (webs, email, etc.) running on them.
Truth is, doing a server as a simple server (other than OpenBSD ::)) is really no big deal. The underlying core code for a server is usually rock solid. But the minute you go beyond basic authentication, and file/print sharing functions, it can get complicated and bothersome.
I've had Windows 200x servers running for years with no downtime other than for routine hardware or software maintenance. Supposedly that can't happen according to some. But I've seen it in dozens of places I've done work for - and in every place where I did the server setup.:mrgreen: Same goes for Linux and BSD. I've done both many times and I've seen enough to say there isn't one flavor of server thats superior to all the others for every possible installation. Just some that are better than others for specific requirements or environments. (And I will confess a minor and wholly personal preference for BSD. Probably more because it was the first server I ever learned than anything else.)
On the desktop it's been a mixed bag. Windows has relatively few problems that are often difficult or impossible to fix on a timely basis. Linux breaks slightly more often, but it's easier to diagnose and (mostly) faster to fix. I don't know anybody who is running BSD as their primary desktop. I have Dragonfly running on one of my PCs. It's very nice - and frankly a little boring. Most of the 'fun' stuff (unless you're a physicist researching subatomic particles or involved in astronomy/cosmology) is happening over on the Linux or Windows desktop.
IMO, where Linux falls down for the desktop is in its lack of standardization.
End users, as a whole, demand something be predictable and standardized. It doesn't need to be a great standard - or even a very good one. Good enough will do for daily use. (Especially since social site crawling, media downloading, email, and porn-surfing make up about 75% of all desktop activity. Wordprocessing and spreadsheeting make up about 5%. And the remaining 20% is used playing games - either games like WoW - or the more serious games hosted by E*Trade and it's ilk.)
Where Microsoft was smart was in providing that standard, along with just enough 'fun' and silliness to make it compelling.
And that's something that generally enrages people who code or otherwise get involved with something like Linux. Unfortunately, that created an early elitist culture. And once it became glaringly obvious (since these people were no dummies) that Linux was not innately superior to much anything else, the elitism morphed into a new attitude of "Who cares." whenever anybody raised the basic question "Why Linux? I just don't get it."
It's really not so much a technical issue as it is a people issue. And when dealing with people, perception is everything. And perception is not something smart people, for all their cleverness, tend to be very good at managing.
I think the takeaway is that Linux and its developers tend to be a little too smart and 'right' (i.e. technically correct) for their own good - if the goal is to promote Linux for the desktop.
But if that is the case, the only way it will change (short of Microsoft sinking into the Pacific Ocean after The Big One) is if they lose the "Who cares." and fuggetaboutit attitude and stop ignoring the fact that being 'more correct' is not always the optimal solution.
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@m2k: <consider it deleted> 8)
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This thread is pretty mild, but still, I'd like to remind all long time DC members in particular, that on this forum you are expected to be respectful of each other. ESPECIALLY those of you who have hundreds or even thousands of posts -- you are expected to set an example in terms of making the extra effort to extend the utmost respect to those you are talking to, even if they are not doing so in return. Please refrain from insulting each other here.
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@ mahesh2k & tuxman - Umm...could you two maybe start you own thread and take it over there if its going to continue? People are trying to have a conversation here.
I am done with him. I don't mind if all my posts in this thread are removed. I have no plans on continuing with him at all and you can read my posts to get the hint of that. I am not chasing people in every thread with flamebait, nuf said. Thanks to mouser or whoever moderator deleted the last reply from Tuxman. I didn't posted after my last post and I wasn't planning on replying on his posts after that too, but still I appreciate stopping the attack fest by deleting his reply. I don't understand @40hz, why you made this post to take the thread back to that discussion. Ignoring usually works. I did the same. I would appreciate if mods delete both this and your quoted reply, so discussion goes back on topic.
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Ah, that peaceableness. :-*
I love how you even rumble without me writing anything, young friend.
Could someone please finally remove the personal attacks against me?
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Ok. I'm out. :)
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Honestly, you don't need crappy windows. I used OSX and Linux and they don't show performance issues like windows. Not even windows 7 solved performance issue problem. More you use windows, less usable it becomes, after you add more data, reg entries and stuff.-mahesh2k
I personally haven't seen this since I moved away from Win9x. The registry is pretty efficient, definitely a lot more efficient than re-parsing text files all the time :) - the only problems I've seen have been caused by really badly written 3rd party software, and the cause hasn't been "too much data in the registry", it's been "really broken data" (which just coincidentally happened to be located in the registry).
Those who are using Visual studio knows Why I am saying this, because microsoft's own programs make the system unusable.-mahesh2k
I've been running every single version (not every edition, of course!) and service pack of Visual Studio from 6 to 2010 SP1, and will soon be installing 2012. I've even been using VS on Win9x. While the first VS.NET version was pretty crappy and unstable, I've never had VS affect my system stability, and never heard of stories like that from friends or co-workers.
On the other hand, OSX based on unix is perfectly fine. Doesn't break or gets crashed with official softwares and upgrades.-mahesh2k
Most of the developers at my current job are on OSX laptops. A bunch of them started cursing some months ago after installing whatever-cat-named-update because their systems got bogged down (disk paging, beach ball icon, and sometime systems so unresponsive they had to hardboot them) - seems like Apple messed up the memory manager, majorly. Not something you'll see if you're just drinking caffè latte and not using your shiny laptop for facebook and hipstagram - but definitely if you're actually using the machine. And should I mention the funny instances where the battery expands somewhat (natural thing to do because of heat), messing up the touchpad? Or the various data-loss incidents there's been in Finder?
Sure, there's some nice things about OSX, and the build quality on some macbooks is better than a lot of non-OSX PCs. But there's plenty of problems as well, and plenty of funny security holes as well :-)
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Those who are using Visual studio knows Why I am saying this, because microsoft's own programs make the system unusable.-mahesh2k
I've been running every single version (not every edition, of course!) and service pack of Visual Studio from 6 to 2010 SP1, and will soon be installing 2012. I've even been using VS on Win9x. While the first VS.NET version was pretty crappy and unstable, I've never had VS affect my system stability, and never heard of stories like that from friends or co-workers.-f0dder
Same here all the way back to 9x. Hell we've even got one guy that (does legacy stuff) is still doing VB code with VS6, on Windows 8.
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Most of the developers at my current job are on OSX laptops. A bunch of them started cursing some months ago after installing whatever-cat-named-update because their systems got bogged down (disk paging, beach ball icon, and sometime systems so unresponsive they had to hardboot them) - seems like Apple messed up the memory manager, majorly. Not something you'll see if you're just drinking caffè latte and not using your shiny laptop for facebook and hipstagram - but definitely if you're actually using the machine.
-f0dder
As someone who has been using OSX for over two years (an imac and a macbook pro), I can confirm this. Memory management in OSX makes no sense, the system is constantly paging stuff even though there's more than enough free memory for everything. Almost every time I leave eclipse (http://eclipse.org) open during the night, when I return on the next day and set focus on the window I have to watch the beach ball for a few minutes while it pages back stuff; also, usually it's faster just to kill eclipse and reopen it than wait for it to be paged in again. Also, we have 20+ macs at my workplace, and around 50% of them have had to go back to apple for fixing various stuff; all the 2year+ ones have serious marks all over the screen similar to sunburn, despite the fact that none get direct sunlight.
A related complaint: I see the beach ball at least once a week, apparently for no reason: in this situation usually the memory is half free and the CPU isn't being used at all. Also, I can see more youtube videos at the same time in my girlfriend's phone than on either of my macs (more than one is pushing it). And I can't use this awesome stuff (http://www.buildwithchrome.com/static/map) with any of the macs because it's simply too slow (both macs are dual cores with 4gb ram) and the laptop will burn a hole on whatever it is resting on.
Sorry for the rant, but I really could go on forever on why you do not want to buy a mac. The fact that it runs something that looks like unix is awesome, though. (and the touchpads, mice and keyboards are the best invention ever)
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Those who are using Visual studio knows Why I am saying this, because microsoft's own programs make the system unusable.-mahesh2k
I've been running every single version (not every edition, of course!) and service pack of Visual Studio from 6 to 2010 SP1, and will soon be installing 2012. I've even been using VS on Win9x. While the first VS.NET version was pretty crappy and unstable, I've never had VS affect my system stability, and never heard of stories like that from friends or co-workers.-f0dder
Same here all the way back to 9x. Hell we've even got one guy that (does legacy stuff) is still doing VB code with VS6, on Windows 8.
-Stoic Joker
Same here... including unfortunately the VB code. Anything other than anecdotal evidence of this VS making the system unusable bit?
Sure, there's some nice things about OSX, and the build quality on some macbooks is better than a lot of non-OSX PCs. But there's plenty of problems as well, and plenty of funny security holes as well :-)
-f0dder
+1
They're all just tools, and all of them have their pros and cons.
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... Your assumptions on its advantages are plain wrong, that's all.
Oh, right: Call it a flamebait when someone points out your mistakes. Well played.
-Tuxman
Hi Tux.
Since you asked elsewhere why people perceived you as a "troll", I picked this comment to look at. I have done some little mini-studies on quantifying semantics to put some math behind "qualitative" words such as "troll". (I am not the first, I even saw some news story that some big corps are patenting this stuff too, this is just my little variant.)
The short easy explanation borrows a phrase from somewhere called the "Golden Rule vs the Silver Rule". The Golden Rule is often stated as "treat others as you want to be treated". The problem is that people often end up in the Silver Rule, stated as "treat others as you *have been* treated". Aka, someone misfires a comment and then the series rolls along.
So with that as a backdrop, let's do some number crunching. An early starting point is to assign a number scale of "sharpness" to a comment that the person makes. Your first line is slightly sharp. The number scale can be anything that appeals to you. As a simple 0-10 scale, (with the zero being important!) 0 means perfectly balanced, 10 is boiling over with sharpness. I'd rate your first line about a 2. Nothing too bad, a little staccato, but okay.
But look at the second line! It's flanked by two (sharp / sarcastic / your choice of word) elements. I'd rate it at least a 4 as a pair.
Then it's just an algorithm. The average sharpness of comments eventually crosses a (somewhat fuzzy) line to what people begin calling "troll". Per person, that line moves up and down, but finally like a bell curve it converges. Does that help?
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A bit, thanks. :)
(OTOH this seems to be rather subjective. I mean, "4" is "medium trollness" (for you) where "trollness" is a synonym for sarcasm which is not actually a good idea. I might be sarcastic at times, but the difference between trolling and being sarcastic is that trolling is only destructive and not a good way to transport suggestions.)
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A bit, thanks. :)
(OTOH this seems to be rather subjective. I mean, "4" is "medium trollness" (for you) where "trollness" is a synonym for sarcasm which is not actually a good idea. I might be sarcastic at times, but the difference between trolling and being sarcastic is that trolling is only destructive and not a good way to transport suggestions.)
-Tuxman
Aye, I have a lot more finesses behind my theory and I'm happy to start a thread maybe in the basement to thrash them out! You're quite right, there are elements of both each person's individual scales, and intention of the original person. And more. My early aim was to begin to use what I believe is your talent for analysis to begin to study why you are a little confused at the reception you are receiving here.
I believe that the theory can reduce to a series of mathematical equations that will yield a numerical quantitative answer to these kinds of questions. Like all science, we can fiddle with the structure of the equations gleefully, but already at a rough level it works for me. I used it this morning when a recruiter for a life insurance company called me. : )
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Honestly, you don't need crappy windows. I used OSX and Linux and they don't show performance issues like windows. Not even windows 7 solved performance issue problem. More you use windows, less usable it becomes, after you add more data, reg entries and stuff.-mahesh2k
I personally haven't seen this since I moved away from Win9x. The registry is pretty efficient, definitely a lot more efficient than re-parsing text files all the time :) - the only problems I've seen have been caused by really badly written 3rd party software, and the cause hasn't been "too much data in the registry", it's been "really broken data" (which just coincidentally happened to be located in the registry).-f0dder
I did found problems, especially on Win XP and Vista. I had plenty of things broken e.g. TCP/IP reg fix that is available for both XP and vista when net crashes to reg corruption of the entries, I am sure you are aware of it. I can dig out few more reg edit fixes out there, in fact I had one bunch saved as file when I used XP Pro SP2 to use them after fresh installation. I don't have this on Windows 7 because those problems are pretty much solved on 7 but with windows XP SP 2 that problem is still possible to replicate. I don't know how you guys are saying that after Windows 9x, system is much stable in terms of reg performance because it's not for me.
Those who are using Visual studio knows Why I am saying this, because microsoft's own programs make the system unusable.I've been running every single version (not every edition, of course!) and service pack of Visual Studio from 6 to 2010 SP1, and will soon be installing 2012. I've even been using VS on Win9x. While the first VS.NET version was pretty crappy and unstable, I've never had VS affect my system stability, and never heard of stories like that from friends or co-workers.-mahesh2k
I used the Pro edition upto 2010 and after 2010 I used selective VS for web development. Prior to that almost every VS edition used to interfere with the ,NET framework which I updated and patched beyond default VS bundle. e.g. ,NET 3 and onwards. I had debugger closing my programs (this includes treedb, cintanotes and few other programs) bugging every single application and opening debugger for them. Never had this problem on your side? I wonder how you turned off debugger after VS installation to keep it from interfering with other applications and default .NET framework.
On the other hand, OSX based on unix is perfectly fine. Doesn't break or gets crashed with official softwares and upgrades.Most of the developers at my current job are on OSX laptops. A bunch of them started cursing some months ago after installing whatever-cat-named-update because their systems got bogged down (disk paging, beach ball icon, and sometime systems so unresponsive they had to hardboot them) - seems like Apple messed up the memory manager, majorly. Not something you'll see if you're just drinking caffè latte and not using your shiny laptop for facebook and hipstagram - but definitely if you're actually using the machine. And should I mention the funny instances where the battery expands somewhat (natural thing to do because of heat), messing up the touchpad? Or the various data-loss incidents there's been in Finder?Sure, there's some nice things about OSX, and the build quality on some macbooks is better than a lot of non-OSX PCs. But there's plenty of problems as well, and plenty of funny security holes as well :-)-mahesh2k
I don't know which part of my post people are picking up to imply "no security holes on osx". I am just comparing it with windows and on that comparison I had very few complaints on OS X in terms of patching (explained above) and the official updates, where you know how good windows performs.
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I did found problems, especially on Win XP and Vista. I had plenty of things broken e.g. TCP/IP reg fix that is available for both XP and vista when net crashes to reg corruption of the entries, I am sure you are aware of it. I can dig out few more reg edit fixes out there, in fact I had one bunch saved as file when I used XP Pro SP2 to use them after fresh installation. I don't have this on Windows 7 because those problems are pretty much solved on 7 but with windows XP SP 2 that problem is still possible to replicate. I don't know how you guys are saying that after Windows 9x, system is much stable in terms of reg performance because it's not for me.-mahesh2k
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying the registry tweaks (i.e. registry settings that are perceived to improve system performance, while often being snake-oil) that worked on XP no longer work on Vista and Win7? Or does your "net crashes to reg corruption" mean a BSOD causing corruption of the hive-files, and thus a completely broken Windows install?
Since installing Win2k (the first NT I've really used), 99% of the BSODs I've seen have been caused by flaky hardware, bad 3rd-party drivers, or myself messing around with kernel-mode debuggers or driver development. I can't recall seeing a BSOD that was caused by MS code, but I'm pretty sure there's been a few. In those 10+ years. While a BSOD does mean losing whatever unsaved open files, I've only seen filesystem corruption in a very few instances - that was with ATI video drivers. Those caused extremely nasty FS corruption, though, bad enough that I had to run filesystem recovery software. Had 3-4 of those before I realized the drivers were insanely lame and couldn't handle LargeSystemCache=1. And as late as June 2012, AMD/ATI video drivers prevented system-wide ASLR (http://www.cert.org/blogs/certcc/2012/06/amd_video_drivers_prevent_the.html).
But please do elaborate on the problems you mention above, as I'm genuinely confused as to what you mean.
I used the Pro edition upto 2010 and after 2010 I used selective VS for web development. Prior to that almost every VS edition used to interfere with the ,NET framework which I updated and patched beyond default VS bundle. e.g. ,NET 3 and onwards. I had debugger closing my programs (this includes treedb, cintanotes and few other programs) bugging every single application and opening debugger for them. Never had this problem on your side? I wonder how you turned off debugger after VS installation to keep it from interfering with other applications and default .NET framework.-mahesh2k
I've never had the debugger "interfering with other applications". If a program crashes, yes, I'll get the option to attach the debugger and do post-mortem. But that's not the debugger interfering, that's the 3rd-party program crashing, for whatever reason. Rather than blaming VS, perhaps it's the 3rd-party program that's stupidly programmed and making unguaranteed assumptions, and then crashing when implementation details change in a later .NET version? (not that I'm saying .NET is bugfree, though, I've filed a couple of bug reports on it myself. Quite esoteric edge-cases, though.)
I don't know which part of my post people are picking up to imply "no security holes on osx". I am just comparing it with windows and on that comparison I had very few complaints on OS X in terms of patching (explained above) and the official updates, where you know how good windows performs.-mahesh2k
*shrug* - Windows update has (almost) always worked pretty well for me - it really doesn't like running out of disk space, though, but I'm not sure I can really blame it for that. I've had coworkers with bricked systems after OSX updates (to be fair, that was upgrading to a new OSX version rather than just a regular update, but still.)
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I did found problems, especially on Win XP and Vista. I had plenty of things broken e.g. TCP/IP reg fix that is available for both XP and vista when net crashes to reg corruption of the entries, I am sure you are aware of it. I can dig out few more reg edit fixes out there, in fact I had one bunch saved as file when I used XP Pro SP2 to use them after fresh installation. I don't have this on Windows 7 because those problems are pretty much solved on 7 but with windows XP SP 2 that problem is still possible to replicate. I don't know how you guys are saying that after Windows 9x, system is much stable in terms of reg performance because it's not for me.-mahesh2k
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying the registry tweaks (i.e. registry settings that are perceived to improve system performance, while often being snake-oil) that worked on XP no longer work on Vista and Win7? Or does your "net crashes to reg corruption" mean a BSOD causing corruption of the hive-files, and thus a completely broken Windows install.Since installing Win2k (the first NT I've really used), 99% of the BSODs I've seen have been caused by flaky hardware, bad 3rd-party drivers, or myself messing around with kernel-mode debuggers or driver development. I can't recall seeing a BSOD that was caused by MS code, but I'm pretty sure there's been a few. In those 10+ years. While a BSOD does mean losing whatever unsaved open files, I've only seen filesystem corruption in a very few instances - that was with ATI video drivers. Those caused extremely nasty FS corruption, though, bad enough that I had to run filesystem recovery software. Had 3-4 of those before I realized the drivers were insanely lame and couldn't handle LargeSystemCache=1. And as late as June 2012, AMD/ATI video drivers prevented system-wide ASLR (http://www.cert.org/blogs/certcc/2012/06/amd_video_drivers_prevent_the.html)But please do elaborate on the problems you mention above, as I'm genuinely confused as to what you mean.-f0dder
I mean reg corruption,not tweaks. Remember WINSOCK issues? Yes. I am talking about some of these reg level corruption of the entries which makes XP or vista unusable. Upto Vista, it's easy to find that problem. As for BSOD, had that problem after patching uxtheme.dll which we need while changing the themes for XP. It has nothing to do with reg but performance issue you wanted to see is there when you do modify shell stuff. To be honest, never had video driver issues, unless ofcourse it was from the hardware of HP (no complaints to MS for that).
I used the Pro edition upto 2010 and after 2010 I used selective VS for web development. Prior to that almost every VS edition used to interfere with the ,NET framework which I updated and patched beyond default VS bundle. e.g. ,NET 3 and onwards. I had debugger closing my programs (this includes treedb, cintanotes and few other programs) bugging every single application and opening debugger for them. Never had this problem on your side? I wonder how you turned off debugger after VS installation to keep it from interfering with other applications and default .NET framework.I've never had the debugger "interfering with other applications". If a program crashes, yes, I'll get the option to attach the debugger and do post-mortem. But that's not the debugger interfering, that's the 3rd-party program crashing, for whatever reason. Rather than blaming VS, perhaps it's the 3rd-party program that's stupidly programmed and making unguaranteed assumptions, and then crashing when implementation details change in a later .NET version? (not that I'm saying .NET is bugfree, though, I've filed a couple of bug reports on it myself. Quite esoteric edge-cases, though.)-mahesh2k
Here's how I found out debugger issue. I installed the fresh XP and vista on different machines. Then used the typical programs without any problems. And after installation of VS, observed the problem with debugger. It has mostly due to .NET and the debugger issues IMO. So it's definitely not third party issue. Yet to find out how to get over that. But As I am not doing much VC/Sharp development, it's not needed for VS 2010 onwards. Web dev VS doesn't interfere with other programs. Also mind telling me how do you get rid of all reg entries when you install VS PRO? I have yet to figure out complete removal of VS without leaving some traces behind.
I don't know which part of my post people are picking up to imply "no security holes on osx". I am just comparing it with windows and on that comparison I had very few complaints on OS X in terms of patching (explained above) and the official updates, where you know how good windows performs.*shrug* - Windows update has (almost) always worked pretty well for me - it really doesn't like running out of disk space, though, but I'm not sure I can really blame it for that. I've had coworkers with bricked systems after OSX updates (to be fair, that was upgrading to a new OSX version rather than just a regular update, but still.)-mahesh2k
It didn't worked for me upto vista. Patch list and security fixes keeps on increasing once we have VS installed. Windows 7 on the other hand is never showed the upgrade and patching problems.
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For some reason installers for .NET applications have a tendency to (occasionally) replace key .NET framework files as part of the install routine. There is an XML patch that I've had to reinstall over 30 times in the past year ... Simply because the EMR software that several of our clients use insists on "updating" (e.g. borking) this perticular patch every time they do an update.
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I mean reg corruption,not tweaks. Remember WINSOCK issues? Yes. I am talking about some of these reg level corruption of the entries which makes XP or vista unusable. Upto Vista, it's easy to find that problem.-mahesh2k
Never ever heard about it. I had BSODs on my nforce4 motherboard when trying to use nvidia's "hardware" firewall (which was a retarted piece of crap, requiring a full install of an apache httpd in order to manage settings locally... :rolleyes: ), and I've had BSODs from third-party firewall, VPN and antivirus products. Some of these seem to show winsock as the problem, but that's only if you look just at the top-level driver in the BSOD, not if you study the actual minidump with WinDbg. Also, I've never had filesystme or registry corruption from any of these "normal" BSODs. Got more information on the issue?
As for BSOD, had that problem after patching uxtheme.dll which we need while changing the themes for XP. It has nothing to do with reg but performance issue you wanted to see is there when you do modify shell stuff. To be honest, never had video driver issues, unless ofcourse it was from the hardware of HP (no complaints to MS for that).-mahesh2k
Sure you didn't use some dodgy software to patch uxtheme, which installed malware on your machine? I've had it patched on XP, XP64, Vista64 and Win7-64 without trouble. It would be a very weird cause of BSODs, since it's a usermode DLL.
Here's how I found out debugger issue. I installed the fresh XP and vista on different machines. Then used the typical programs without any problems. And after installation of VS, observed the problem with debugger. It has mostly due to .NET and the debugger issues IMO. So it's definitely not third party issue. Yet to find out how to get over that. But As I am not doing much VC/Sharp development, it's not needed for VS 2010 onwards. Web dev VS doesn't interfere with other programs.-mahesh2k
I still kinda doubt that has anything to do with "the debugger" (unless the 3rd party software software refuses to run on a machine with developer/debugging tools installed) - but it could very well be that the software simply doesn't work with some versions of .NET runtime libraries... whether the particular VS versions upgrade or accidentally downgrade them. If there's one thing I've learned in my years as a developer, it's that you first blame yourself, then 3rd party vendors, and only then start suspecting Microsoft. Often saves your some embarassment :-)
Also mind telling me how do you get rid of all reg entries when you install VS PRO? I have yet to figure out complete removal of VS without leaving some traces behind.-mahesh2k
Haven't looked at it, and honestly don't care - as long as the leftovers don't cause any trouble (which they haven't). Sure, it's not aesthetically pleasing that junk gets left behind, but even some megabytes worth of data wouldn't really affect the system.
It didn't worked for me upto vista. Patch list and security fixes keeps on increasing once we have VS installed. Windows 7 on the other hand is never showed the upgrade and patching problems.-mahesh2k
Are you saying that updates failed to install, or that there were too many updates for your liking?
Haven't had much trouble with Windows Update except when running on heavily modified Windows versions. Sure, every once in a while I have to install updates a few at a time for whatever reason, as installing everything fails. Not a big deal, sometimes I have to compile programs from source on Linux, because default packages sometimes have conflicting dependencies, which luckily always turn out to be default settings I don't need. Fortunately it's been long enough that I can't remember any particular details, just like it's been long enough since I've had problems with Windows Update :-)
For some reason installers for .NET applications have a tendency to (occasionally) replace key .NET framework files as part of the install routine. There is an XML patch that I've had to reinstall over 30 times in the past year ... Simply because the EMR software that several of our clients use insists on "updating" (e.g. borking) this perticular patch every time they do an update.-Stoic Joker
Annoying. "xcopy" installs, or custom installers? MSI based installers are at least supposed to make sure that doesn't happen (but I still loathe their insanely slow speed).
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I had BSODs on my nforce4 motherboard when trying to use nvidia's "hardware" firewall (which was a retarted piece of crap, requiring a full install of an apache httpd in order to manage settings locally... :rolleyes: ), and I've had BSODs from third-party firewall, VPN and antivirus products. Some of these seem to show winsock as the problem, but that's only if you look just at the top-level driver in the BSOD, not if you study the actual minidump with WinDbg. Also, I've never had filesystme or registry corruption from any of these "normal" BSODs. Got more information on the issue?-f0dder
Not BSOD due to reg but was because of the theme patching and shell related changes. In case of reg issues, most of them were related to the WINSOCK and other network related issues. I can't specifically point to the issue because I used to patch that using the reg fix for Winsock. Without that fix, It was hard to connect to the net. I am not sure if it was because of driver issue or say some malware? For some reason system was not usable without those reg fixes (most of them were released by MVPs), I hope you remember XP days with regular fixing of broken stuff.
Sure you didn't use some dodgy software to patch uxtheme, which installed malware on your machine? I've had it patched on XP, XP64, Vista64 and Win7-64 without trouble. It would be a very weird cause of BSODs, since it's a usermode DLL.-mahesh2k
No. I used to play with TGTSoft's uxtheme.dll which was released by them for community. StyleXP isn't alive anymore but I am sure their community themexp.org still has that uxtheme.dll for patching the shell. Without this it was not possible to change themes freely on XP at that time. Had BSOD during these changes.
I still kinda doubt that has anything to do with "the debugger" (unless the 3rd party software software refuses to run on a machine with developer/debugging tools installed) - but it could very well be that the software simply doesn't work with some versions of .NET runtime libraries... whether the particular VS versions upgrade or accidentally downgrade them. If there's one thing I've learned in my years as a developer, it's that you first blame yourself, then 3rd party vendors, and only then start suspecting Microsoft. Often saves your some embarassment :-)-mahesh2k
Well it worked fine without VS, so I can't take the blame. It worked Okay for sometime with VS installed so 3rd party software can't be blamed until .NET had clashes so surely MS has to be blamed here for this. lol
Are you saying that updates failed to install, or that there were too many updates for your liking?-mahesh2k
Some updates with KB fixes for .NET and other VS components failed to install and sometimes had startup issues with them as well. Especially on vista, but never had startup related issue on XP with those KB Fix updates.
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I had BSODs on my nforce4 motherboard when trying to use nvidia's "hardware" firewall (which was a retarted piece of crap, requiring a full install of an apache httpd in order to manage settings locally... :rolleyes: ), and I've had BSODs from third-party firewall, VPN and antivirus products. Some of these seem to show winsock as the problem, but that's only if you look just at the top-level driver in the BSOD, not if you study the actual minidump with WinDbg. Also, I've never had filesystme or registry corruption from any of these "normal" BSODs. Got more information on the issue?-f0dder
Not BSOD due to reg but was because of the theme patching and shell related changes. In case of reg issues, most of them were related to the WINSOCK and other network related issues. I can't specifically point to the issue because I used to patch that using the reg fix for Winsock. Without that fix, It was hard to connect to the net. I am not sure if it was because of driver issue or say some malware? For some reason system was not usable without those reg fixes (most of them were released by MVPs), I hope you remember XP days with regular fixing of broken stuff.-mahesh2k
Only time I ever saw WINSOCK get borked was usually due to an orphaned LSP from either a virus or babysitter security suite (mostly the 2nd one). Either way the fix has always been the same netsh reset winsock ... I don't ever recall using a reg patch for it.
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Not BSOD due to reg but was because of the theme patching and shell related changes. In case of reg issues, most of them were related to the WINSOCK and other network related issues. I can't specifically point to the issue because I used to patch that using the reg fix for Winsock. Without that fix, It was hard to connect to the net. I am not sure if it was because of driver issue or say some malware? For some reason system was not usable without those reg fixes (most of them were released by MVPs),-mahesh2k
Are you talking about registry changes, or the TCPIP.SYS patch to increase the maximum half-open connections (which was recommended for p2p uses)? There's a big difference. I've never heard about winsock registry fixes (apart from malware related crap), but I did use TCPIP.SYS patching back in the XP days. Stupid blind patching (that didn't check for correction version) could nuke your driver, which could definitely end up causing BSODs eventually.
I hope you remember XP days with regular fixing of broken stuff.-mahesh2k
Not really, no. Didn't have a lot of problems that weren't caused by 3rd party software, and while there have been a fair amount of security holes in Windows, I'm not complaining that Microsoft have actually been patching them :-)
Sure you didn't use some dodgy software to patch uxtheme, which installed malware on your machine? I've had it patched on XP, XP64, Vista64 and Win7-64 without trouble. It would be a very weird cause of BSODs, since it's a usermode DLL.-f0dder
No. I used to play with TGTSoft's uxtheme.dll which was released by them for community. StyleXP isn't alive anymore but I am sure their community themexp.org still has that uxtheme.dll for patching the shell. Without this it was not possible to change themes freely on XP at that time. Had BSOD during these changes.-mahesh2k
Can't remember which uxtheme patch I specifically used, nor whether it was a patcher or a full .dll download (but I'd definitely suspicious about a full .dll). Again, it would be highly unusual for usermode software to cause BSODs.
I'm still not convinced that anything you've put forth stems from problems with the registry or Windows in general - it does sound more and more like there could be some dodgy 3rd-party software involved, though (and by that, I include not just various OS patches, but potentially also drivers, antivirus programs, firewalls, et cetera).
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For some reason installers for .NET applications have a tendency to (occasionally) replace key .NET framework files as part of the install routine. There is an XML patch that I've had to reinstall over 30 times in the past year ... Simply because the EMR software that several of our clients use insists on "updating" (e.g. borking) this particular patch every time they do an update.-Stoic Joker
Annoying. "xcopy" installs, or custom installers? MSI based installers are at least supposed to make sure that doesn't happen (but I still loathe their insanely slow speed).-f0dder
Hm... Maybe I'm off in the weeds on the .NET aspect, but I do seem to recall reading about the behavior while researching this (apparently other) issue with KB954430/ AmazingCharts causing the XML patch to fall off constantly (http://amazingcharts.com/ub/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/36741/Searchpage/1/Main/4225/Words/954430/Search/true/Re_KB954430).
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Going way up to a sky high view of the topic, I'll start a new subthread about Linux on the Desktop based on China. You know how "everything" (materially) is made in China? (I know, there's new countries in the game now, but Made in China has the ring you know what I mean.) By now they're past 50 cent party favors, they basically make everything - but with a curious flaw.
We don't yet recognize them as "tech innovators". Why not? (Elsewhere I've seen some articles that their culture somehow discourages it, but that's another day.) Trying not to go stereotypical, China was the original "Cheap Copy". So since Linux is ... wait for it ... Cheaper Than Cheap, with an open license to copy it, why haven't the Chinese pulverized the tech world with The Good Enough Linux Distro that makes everyone else react? (A medium-range problem is that China has gotten hooked with building sneaky back doors to everything, yuck.) Just do it Old School China style. Make a $200 computer with a medium-carefully tweaked Linux Distro, and just flood the market. (And that was what made old China style adorable, they "only medium tweaked" stuff, leading to amusingly-flawed-but-I-still-bought-it-because-it-was-cheap stuff.)
Since we're in daydreaming, they'd make a hybrid new OS, and hit a sweet spot when what was in fact cutting corners on design turns out to be the "Simple OS" that "Mainstream America/Europe" likes. (Maybe only desktop + 2 level deep folders, a simple System Settings set, their own copy of something like LibreOffice and Firefox but having actually fixed all known bug reports, and say like five more amazing darkhorse killer apps no one even knew were possible. They'd contact each of say 500 software vendors and provide a software port free of charge. (Good ol' China-Copying!)
It has just enough extensibility for the techies with plugins, "easy" for the masses, runs everything because they did the ports, and allowed free OS copies for OEM builders.
THAT might get Linux on the desktop.
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^What you're describing sounds an awful lot like what Android was originally (supposedly?) intended to do - except you're suggesting it come with a better keyboard and bigger screen. ;D
And yeah...if anybody does build it, it's gonna be China I'm guessing. Probably take it to Mars with them too at the rate they're going. ;)
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^What you're describing sounds an awful lot like what Android was originally (supposedly?) intended to do - except you're suggesting it come with a better keyboard and bigger screen. ;D
And yeah...if anybody does build it, it's gonna be China I'm guessing. Probably take it to Mars with them too at the rate they're going. ;)
-40hz
Heh well to get that post going, I used China, but if I had to actually make bets, I might put them on India First. There's no meme "Made in India", but because it's tech and not materials, I think I respect India's culture more right now. (Red Herring shout out to Anand! Let's hear the Audience Roar from DC's Indian contingent! ;D )
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^yeah. But we're not looking for good here. All we need is good enough.
Yup I'm still betting on China. ;D (Although India may still end up being who designs it.) ;)
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^yeah. But we're not looking for good here. All we need is good enough.
Yup I'm still bet on China. ;D (Although India may still end up being who designs it.) ;)
-40hz
Well, at the risk of going off topic, "Creating Axis of ____ alliances is the way to transcend Religious Differences" (finally!)
Elsewhere Muslim Iran and Communist North Korea have decided that forming an alliance is more important than the religious differences between Islam and Communism. (!!?) Too bad that doesn't work so well for Islam-Christian-Hodgepodge USA. :(
So I'm all for a Chinese-Indian Alliance! (I have NO idea what that means GeoPolitically, it sounds kinda neat.)
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I think if good enough was the right criteria then everyone would be trying to make a Haiku PC as soon as possible.
Desktop is plagued by the fact that until Tablet OS like Android, most were blind towards what "wows" casuals and little was being done to fix the gaming hole found in Linux. I don't mean high requirement games either. No one was simply stamping their foot on Linux on gaming unless it was cross platform. Even the "great" Linux games never got sequels. Just constant updates of which it is more obvious for casuals to see on a software made for the Tablet than they are to spot the changelog being told to them via an update manager.
Then there's still this myth that casuals like LibreOffice. Just cause casuals don't need all the features of MS Office doesn't mean they don't want MS Word. LibreOffice is not Firefox and MS Office is closer to Photoshop than Internet Explorer. You can't just flood it.
Also: Windows XP Black tried darkhorse killer apps and it did get a ton more notice than Linux as a desktop but it kept being shut down because users suddenly found out that their helpful tech forum guy/mod does not allow someone to help fix warez compromised OS issues...even if it's still just Windows XP and so no one online barely helps anyone out...which is way worse than Linux forums/chatrooms.
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So I'm all for a Chinese-Indian Alliance! (I have NO idea what that means GeoPolitically, it sounds kinda neat.)
-TaoPhoenix
I'm guessing it would mean major changes in the world's economic patterns and spheres of influence. And that's just for openers.
(https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/siema.gif) (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/piwo.gif) (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/para.gif) (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/sekret.gif) (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/SHOCKING.GIF) (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/surrender.gif) (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/esmileys/gen3/1Small/shootmyself.gif)
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I dunno, Red Flag Linux (http://www.redflag-linux.com/en) never really took off, even in China, and even after Nanchang internet cafés were forced to install it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux#Nanchang_Internet_cafes).
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Are you talking about registry changes, or the TCPIP.SYS patch to increase the maximum half-open connections (which was recommended for p2p uses)? There's a big difference. I've never heard about winsock registry fixes (apart from malware related crap), but I did use TCPIP.SYS patching back in the XP days. Stupid blind patching (that didn't check for correction version) could nuke your driver, which could definitely end up causing BSODs eventually.-f0dder
No. I am talking about this (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/811259). I used to get IPMON related dll error. That page was not even there when protonic.com guys helped me solve the issue with regfix. That and some of the other fixes that I downloaded from MVP kelly (from site kelly's corner or something). Like this there were plenty of problems related to reg which bugged me and required fixes.
@Stoic joker, AFAIK, netsh fix was not told to me and I never found any written stuff on MS KB for that. I take that it was from SP 2 onwards? I guess that breaking of WINSOCK could be because of the AV (I am not sure what you mean by orphaned entries).
I'm still not convinced that anything you've put forth stems from problems with the registry or Windows in general - it does sound more and more like there could be some dodgy 3rd-party software involved, though (and by that, I include not just various OS patches, but potentially also drivers, antivirus programs, firewalls, et cetera).-f0dder
Point is not to convince you for something. Point is that I had these problems with windows versions and I suffered, patched or fixed and finally I moved onto other OS which rarely had these issues. Again, if you guys wish to nitpick words and go on about it as if it's religious or political debate, I used "rarely" word here to imply personal experience. Windows has issues, much more than OSX because windows is hardware agnostic and it breaks with every random component not tested during the deployment or testing phase, like modem driver killing something else on the system, reg entries getting corrupted, file copy issue(vista), VS causing issues with other programs and list goes on. These problems makes system less usable compared to other OS, that was my point. Ofcourse, this experience is personal, some people had similar to me and that's why MS KB exists at first place. And some people never had it, so they tend to disagree.
I don't know which part of my post says - "OS X has no security issues or Linux is bug free". Even if I didn't wrote about it and people implying it and then hitting on that point makes discussion rather primitive where things are like - X OS is better than Y. That is not my point and If you're following this thread you know that I never made that point rather it was forced on me and was demanded explanation for, where in reality neither facts for any of the OS points to that domination which I am supposed to hypothetically defend.
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I dunno, Red Flag Linux (http://www.redflag-linux.com/en) never really took off, even in China, and even after Nanchang internet cafés were forced to install it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux#Nanchang_Internet_cafes).
-Edvard
I think that's because Red Flag (could they have picked a worse name?) was a little too heavy handed and obvious about what it was all about. China won't make that mistake a second time. The next Chinese state controlled Linux distro will be created in a university by a "club" of "unaffiliated students." There will be some minor concessions to internet freedoms. And that will allow the government to get what it wants while still keeping it generally palatable to the intended audience. The Chinese apparently have far fewer issues with authority than most people from my experience. A token concession or two towards personal freedom goes a long way in China.
And besides, India will probably design it anyway. It will be India's design (based on a US authored codebase), built in China, and selling like hotcakes in most of the world.
Maybe it won't be that popular in the USA and some parts of Europe. But why should that be a concern? The US economy is in trouble, and Europe's isn't far behind. So it's not like the US/Eur is going to continue to have infinite amounts of money to spend like they did in the old days.
In the meantime there are literally billions of potential first time computer buyers in the rest of the world. All that's needed is something "good enough" and "cheap enough" to become the new reference platform for personal computing.
"Necessity furthers. It is advisable to have a goal in view. No blame." as the I Ching says. ;D
;) 8)
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Again, if you guys wish to nitpick words and go on about it as if it's religious or political debate, I used "rarely" word here to imply personal experience.
-mahesh2k
Not nitpicking words, but as everyone has said, is genuinely interested. No one is attempting to attack- it's just that much of what you said is only anecdotal, so the only way to deal with it is to ask you to see how this could have occurred. If you've moved past this and don't really have any way to substantiate it by anything that might be other than anecdotal and unwilling to/ don't want to discuss it just say so. Everyone here was just trying to help it seems and see things from your perspective- not pick you apart.
OSes are just like the hardware they run on- tools- and each has its uses and problems. And each person's experience with them is going to be individual. But if you throw out phrases like "Those who are using Visual studio knows Why I am saying this, because microsoft's own programs make the system unusable," or "I hope you remember XP days with regular fixing of broken stuff," that doesn't sound either anecdotal or personal experience, so of course people are going to chime in. Then if you change course midstream, you can't expect everyone to change course with you so unexpectedly.
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@Stoic joker, AFAIK, netsh fix was not told to me and I never found any written stuff on MS KB for that. I take that it was from SP 2 onwards? I guess that breaking of WINSOCK could be because of the AV (I am not sure what you mean by orphaned entries).-mahesh2k
Actually it's mentioned in the Vista section of the article you posted above. I've been using it for so long I forget when I started. But I do believe it was back before XP's first SP. AV apps (and viruses) tend to inject an LSP (Layer Service Provider) shim (for lack of a better term) into the stack so they can analyze what is coming over the wire. However during the uninstall these LSPs tend to get forgotten and therefore are "orphand" leaving a big hole in communications. Simplest way I found to rip them loose is to do the netsh winsock reset (and sometimes a tcp/ip reset) to get things back to normal quickly.
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Not nitpicking words, but as everyone has said, is genuinely interested. No one is attempting to attack- it's just that much of what you said is only anecdotal, so the only way to deal with it is to ask you to see how this could have occurred. Everyone here was just trying to help it seems and see things from your perspective- not pick you apart.-wraith808
Actually that's not true. If you check the post from where this started, it started as attack and now it is more of intellectually beating based on variety of experience and with nitpicking of words. We are talking about end of lifecycle OS with problems which was patched along the way. It was even hard to find some of the fixes at that time. I can't say anything but - "take my word for that". Google had very less results at that time. Then again, that is not anecdotal and convincing personal experience for you guys, fair enough.
The explanation which was asked from me was beyond my capacity as per my knowledge of fixing at that time and even today(as I am not using that OS anymore). My point is that - "If you don't experience the same set of annoyances with any OS, does that mean they don't exist". I have used all the popular OS and I can't say this at all with my experience. I have said this before and put it this again - that Win had issues with comparison to say X and that's why you can always use that X or Y if you want. I never forced, never asked to switch. In fact my reply to @taophoenix on another linux thread was that it's hard to switch if you're Win app developer. I don't know why the intellectual nitpicking on my post is being done as if I am defending OS X or Linux. I am not. I am just being happy with low bugs and headaches after the switch and that reflects in my posts.
Does that mean I am supposed to give explanation for everything from the core for why win didn't worked for me in the past and people are going to nitpick they wish with wishful attacks that too implying they're not attacks and genuine interest? Tell me how that works.
If you've moved past this and don't really have any way to substantiate it by anything that might be other than anecdotal and unwilling to/ don't want to discuss it just say so.
Sure. I did moved past that but you do see the point where most of you people picked up the point of nitpicking words "performance issue" and "unusable", for which I have given explanation. If people don't agree with that shortcoming of the OS and wants to beat on that point implying it was either my mistake or it was 3rd party or AV. How am I supposed to react to that? And saying it's not anecdotal or not even convincing personal experience is more of slap on the face, especially if you have ever gone through same experience like me with those set of problems.
Not changing course, I can add few more bugs. I don't mind. I can stretch if you all want what we are after is intellectually beating with nitpicking. Especially the point " OS X has no security issues" for and similar points which are purely forced on me, assuming I was defending something. I can go on with the bugs which I fixed in past (which is not even my concern anymore as I moved away from Vista and XP) but still if there is going to be nitpicking with the tone-"I never had problem which you had, that means your problem is not because of OS but AV and 3rd party stuff so it's not OS, stop blaming OS" ( despite MS admitting things on their side with KB).
But if you throw out phrases like "Those who are using Visual studio knows Why I am saying this, because microsoft's own programs make the system unusable," or "I hope you remember XP days with regular fixing of broken stuff," that doesn't sound either anecdotal or personal experience, so of course people are going to chime in.
It is my personal experience. Take whatever you want from it. If it doesn't sound anecdotal or if you guys never experienced it regardless of plenty of Google searches on the same issues with solutions (which are far different than the one I used to fix), then do I still need to assume that people are genuinely interested? Many of you are aware of some of the XP and vista performance annoyances still the tone being forced on me is that - there are no performance issues at all. Now that I have used "Many of you are aware" doesn't sound anecdotal, right? I have to dig plenty of stuff to back that up isn't it? Nitpicking points and beating on that as if I am defending something doesn't sound to me like genuinely interesting tone. It just sounds intellectual beating which is normal on tech forums. It's just that it always goes in loop, which I tried to avoid and for which you assumed changing midstream. That and...
Then if you change course midstream, you can't expect everyone to change course with you so unexpectedly.
I am not changing course midstream, I am aware of nitpicking here from the start and I am pointing out that before people keep on assuming something which isnt there.
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I am not changing course midstream, I am aware of nitpicking here from the start and I am pointing out that before people keep on assuming something which isnt there.
-mahesh2k
Maybe most of this misunderstanding/miscommunication is more a colloquial language issue than anything else? :)
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Yes. I guess so. It's not my first language and it's lot harder to express something in less words more clearly.
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Yes. I guess so. It's not my first language and it's lot harder to express something in less words more clearly.
-mahesh2k
^My hat is off to you for being bi-lingual and willing to put it use. I have enough trouble speaking the language I grew up with. My own wordiness is often a problem when I post. One for which I have no excuse since American English is my first language. I'd be totally up the creek in a non-English speaking forum. :) :Thmbsup:
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It' nice to have FOSS operating systems even if only because they are far more trustful (thousand of eyes watching their source code very closely). Amen
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I am trying to re-get acquainted with latest linux (due to some ankyloses at work)
does that pain to install a single app still exists? compiling, getting dependencies, etc?
I hoped that it would become someday easy to install software in linux, like in winxp, but I saw so many people in the linux community that seemed they were excited with such long install procedures, so I gave up
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I am trying to re-get acquainted with latest linux (due to some ankyloses at work)
does that pain to install a single app still exists? compiling, getting dependencies, etc?
I hoped that it would become someday easy to install software in linux, like in winxp, but I saw so many people in the linux community that seemed they were excited with such long install procedures, so I gave up
-kalos
I think it still is. I just saw some article the other day about (I think) some software update not being in "this edition of uBuntu." Some people like the whole "reinstall it all" thing, but as a long time Windows user, just gimme the app. : )
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@kalos: I think it all depends on what you're doing. For most of the stuff, you can just go to the "app store" (or whatever its name is), search for what you want, click install and you're done.
re:compiling: depends on the distro you choose. The most user friendly ones (ubuntu, suse, red hat, fedora?) use pre-compiled packages, so no. If you use something such as gentoo, I believe you can choose but many people compile from source.
re:dependencies: I never fully understood why this is a problem. Maybe because I arrived too late to experience the problem, but for me, the package managers always sorted out the dependencies for what I asked them to install and then installed them with no trouble.
Also, here's superboyac having fun with installing stuff on linux: https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=31076.msg294867#msg294867 notice that when he uses the "app store", it's really easy. When he installs from source, well... Not so much :P
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I am trying to re-get acquainted with latest linux (due to some ankyloses at work)
does that pain to install a single app still exists? compiling, getting dependencies, etc?
I hoped that it would become someday easy to install software in linux, like in winxp, but I saw so many people in the linux community that seemed they were excited with such long install procedures, so I gave up
-kalos
I think it still is. I just saw some article the other day about (I think) some software update not being in "this edition of uBuntu." Some people like the whole "reinstall it all" thing, but as a long time Windows user, just gimme the app. : )
-TaoPhoenix
It's not all that common that you'd need to compile and install with today's distros. About the only time you'd need to do that is if you wanted the most bleeding-edge release (i.e. "unstable" or beta) of something. Which is fine as long as you're willing to forego the quality control that takes place before something makes it into a distro's repository. Don't forget that most F/OSS developers work independently so there's no guarantee compiling their app and installing it won't break compatibility or screw up your Linux environment. Backporting and dependency checking are a large part of the reason why distros started doing repositories in the first place. As is security. You can be relatively sure you're gremlin and malware free if you install from an authorised repository.
So until you get more familiar with Linux, I'd suggest you forget about compiling and stick to what is available in the repositories until you gain that experience.
Like Tao said: "Just gimme the app."
I agree with him 100%. So use the repositories as much as possible. That's what they do. That's what they're there for. :) :Thmbsup:
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It's not all that common that you'd need to compile and install with today's distros.
-40hz
Depends. *buntu is known for broken packages, so self-compiling is a good choice there.
Or just choose a better distribution.
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Depends. *buntu is known for broken packages, so self-compiling is a good choice there.
-Tuxman
Haven't run into that too much...but then again I don't use *buntu that much.
Haven't since Lucid Lynx (v10.04) which I though was their last genuinely good release. ;D
Or just choose a better distribution.
-Tuxman
Agree. :Thmbsup:
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Agree as well.
There were several packages in Ubuntu I found that never worked for me EVER, and there was always a few forum threads here and there that folks would complain on and eventually someone would stop in and just say flat that the package was broken because of some dependency thing that couldn't be resolved, but the package was there anyway.
Jokosher comes to mind, due to some shenanigans with the gstreamer-gnonlin library (this persisted for 3 versions before I gave up...) as well as a few media players that would consistently break each other depending on whether they used mpg123 or mpg321 >:(
BTW- I compile lots of stuff nowadays, but usually software packages, not libraries, and always stuff that's just not in the repos yet. I use the repo to install the -dev header packages for the needed library and life's a peach.
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Time for me to rejoin.
[For me], Linux has served my desktop needs quite thoroughly for more than a half decade. My point way back on page 2 was simply, Why do I need commercial alternatives when free works fine?
I'm still an openSUSE (http://www.opensuse.org/), but thanks to suggestion by 40hz, I have Pinguy (http://pinguyos.com/) installed on a second system and it's absolutely elegant, not to mention quick and nimble. I would recommend it to anyone. Now this love of Linux doesn't mean Windows or OSX is shite, but rather that I'm not going near walled gardens. I've already surrendered my online life to Google with regard to their apps, and I do enjoy Google+. But even if I was forced to use Windows or OSX, it would just be to launch a browser. That's all the controversy I can make out of it any more.
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So Google is not a walled garden?
Good luck with your online life when Google Mail is down again.
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So Google is not a walled garden?
Good luck with your online life when Google Mail is down again.
-Tuxman
You can get your information out of google in order to use other services. And it interacts with other services, and doesn't lock you into using only what they release when they release it.
I think that's the definition of walled garden here- not service outages. If you use a cloud based service (any cloud based service) there are things out of your control. What you can use doesn't have to be one of them.
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So you can transfer your Google+ account to Diaspora? How?
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I don't know how you'd get the information into diaspora, but you can get all of your information out of google through google takeout. From there, your information is yours.
Ref: http://www.dataliberation.org/takeout-products
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Oh, great, you can export the data you actually provided yourself. Now that's useful.
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Oh, great, you can export the data you actually provided yourself. Now that's useful.
-Tuxman
Would you rather not be able to get your data out? Seems like a standard export function that one would expect to be available...
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Yeah, look at the (well deserved) fuss over Roboform cause they've limited export capability.
I'd probably prefer to have as much as possible locally myself but that's got nothing to do with the Linux desktop anyways ;-)
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Yes, the "cloud" is something different. While it is nice to have it (for example: Evernote), it is dangerous when it comes to sensitive data.
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Oh, great, you can export the data you actually provided yourself. Now that's useful.
-Tuxman
Isn't that what we were talking about? Being able to get at your data instead of being locked into an ecosystem? I mean, you can't truly expect them to make the interface for transferring into everything there is out there, can you? I haven't seen anything (other than dedicated import/export utilities) that go that far.
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Of course I can. ;D
At least it should be able to import too.
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It can import into its own ecosystem from others... or that's not the type of import you're talking about?
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I meant: Complete merging.
You can't just type your IMAP data and everything is in Google Mail, right?
You can't just provide Dropbox access and everything is on Google Drive, right?
Etc.etc.
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Does such a thing exist for any of these services?
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Why would Google spend time doing this, Tux? There are far too many competing services to justify this. Plus, if you are syncing from a dropbox account, wouldn't the data ALREADY be on your computer (or one you have access to)? Just point Google drive to that folder and your data is synced.
Show me another service that does a direct import of IMAP data from another service. The only way I've ever found to sync IMAP profiles is using a client and draggin/dropping between the two, or some clunky scripts that does it (imapsync).
But something tells me you already know this all of this, didn't you?
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Moving files from one cloud into another does exist, of course. Not sure about the other features
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Moving files from one cloud into another does exist, of course. Not sure about the other features
-Tuxman
Source?
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But something tells me you already know this all of this, didn't you?
-Josh
I totally did.
All I was saying was: Once you put "everything" on Google, you have to keep two things in mind:
1. It will take you a lot of effort to migrate elsewhere.
2. You are no longer in control of your data.
(3. People like me will not read your e-mail when you use Google Mail because of privacy concerns.)
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Source?
-Josh
Human logic.
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Source?
-Josh
Human logic.
-Tuxman
I was more referring to a source where one service provider provides for direct import of data from another service (cloud storage, or IMAP, as you called out), besides simply pointing the client to the data already on your computer, as I suggested. And again, I think you knew this. I do not like claims without some source of proof.
If you knew these answers, and your point was what you stated two posts back, why did you not state that up front? I can see what data Google has about me and modify (to include deleting) said data in any of the Google products.
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So you do know what data about you Google is giving to its advertising partners? Where can you see that?
I was more referring to a source where one service provider provides for direct import of data from another service
Moving files on a cloud is usually happening over your hard disk anyway, right?
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I think I'm going to adopt a policy of not replying to one line "comeback" posts - like this one I just posted for example. ;) 8) ;D
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:)
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You failed, sir.
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Just to put in my two cents worth. I have a small computer repair business and consider myself as pretty well qualified in Windows. Toyed very slightly with various Linux distros over past 10 years and didn't care for any. However, about 5 months ago, I d/l and played with a Live cd of Linux13-MATE. I liked it so much that I am now dual booting it on all my machines, and tend to use it 95% of the time. IMHO it has Windows all beat. Incidentally, I turned 78 today. I highly recommend Linux Mint, any version.
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Incidentally, I turned 78 today.
-tosim
Happy Birthday!
(sorry - I dont know anything about linux, so I dont have any other comment)
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Incidentally, I turned 78 today.
-tosim
Happy Birthday!
(sorry - I dont know anything about linux, so I dont have any other comment)
-tomos
Happy Birthday! :Thmbsup:
I know a bit about Linux and I'm glad Mint is working out so well for you. That's pretty much the outcome I've seen with virtually everybody I recommended it to who gave it a genuine try.
Seriously, I still can't see why so many people think Linux is such a big deal. It's very Windows-like. And most of the hassles that used to go with using it are now ancient history.
8)
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It's very Windows-like.-40hz
If you are doing it wrong, it is. And most people do it wrong.
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And most of the hassles that used to go with using it are now ancient history.
-40hz
Most issue-stuff used to be hardware/driver related, and the formerly somewhat awkward setup procedure, that's now fully handled in GUI-mode instead of Character-mode, so much more end-user friendly, and driver-support is excellent these days. :up: