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Main Area and Open Discussion => Living Room => Topic started by: dantheman on May 21, 2012, 08:00 AM
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I could have said, "Is Linux for real?!"
I've spent some considerable time over the last week trying to get into Linux,
especially with LinuxMint which seems to be the second best after Ubuntu.
Decided to give the recent 201204 Debian edition a spin (learning steep is high) and it was hard to get it installed (dual boot).
My major problem with it was opening programs like Firefox, OpenOffice (oops! LibreOffice).
Thought it was bad on my Windows7 but they take forever to open even on Linux!
And... you can't press ctrl+shift+Esc to know if they're runnin' or not.
And then Firefox jams.
You click on the exit button, nothing happens. :mad:
Again, you can't ctrl+shift+Esc to see if it's going tilt or not.
And yet, i gave this Debian edition all the juice (and more!) that was required on installation.
Besides, many pages in Firefox never look as good as on Windows.
Then i decided to give LinuxMint's latest Maya Cinnamon edition a try.
Same problem.
Heck, my friend has Firefox running on an old XP and it performs twice as fast as on my system! :-[
What gives? I don't know.
Running here on Windows 7 Home Ed. Intel Duo ; 2.52Ghz ; 4G memory with 500G hard disk.
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Ah yes, the grand old OS wars.
I had a thread a month back describing my own Linux adventures, with the same themes on different issues.
Linux is this eternal Dark Horse that won't ever quite die but first MS then Apple then maybe Google have done a good job collectively making sure that it never gets a cultural foothold. Yet. But to use fancy business school language, if some billionaire decides to be "disruptive" and sink some scary money into "middleware" for Linux, then it could come crashing through.
So at its best the devs can't really get "fired" from working on Linux, (threat of which is what makes regular work miserable), but then at the same time no one wants to do "boring" development work either, and the bugs that slip through are what make it feel choppy.
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You just need to learn what the Debian version of ctrl-shift-esc is. :Thmbsup:
Try opening the Software Center thingy (in Ubuntu) and searching for Task Manager or Process Manager or something.
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You have to set the shortcut for system monitor on debian. As for hobby remark, linux is used on datacenters and is powering billion sites on the internet and this number is increasing. I just don't understand people don't appreciate the free things in life but they do appreciate walled gardens aka prison. ;)
Then i decided to give LinuxMint's latest Maya Cinnamon edition a try.
Same problem.
Check your swap partition space. Or have you even not set it? if there is no swap space or low space then yes, this type of problem persist. Show us your partition log in linux.
Intel Duo ; 2.52Ghz ; 4G memory with 500G hard disk.
This system is capable of running even modern window managers in linux. I am not sure what makes you think it is slow unless ofcourse you're using buggy build. I don't know why you're using (often) unstable builds of debian instead of ubuntu or Mint. Why are you expecting CTRL-ALT-DEL to work the same way on linux just because windows offered that to you. Does windows offers running linux program inside windows officially? So why should CTRL-SHIFT-ESC should work exactly like windows? You can set any shortkey for it. If you're using gnome, you can use gconf-edit and do lot of shortcut variations. Why you're expecting intelligent linux to act like dumb windows? :P
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LM Debian is supposed to be the future.
Guess the future isn't here yet... :D
LM 13 Maya Cinnamon is supposed to be built on latest Ubuntu.
Is that stable enough?
The installation process automatically assigns the amount for swap.
The fun with Windows 7 is that it just works.
You can tweak it to your liking after but you don't have to look in 50 forums before you get an satisfactory answer.
For sure, if some billionaire would come around, things would change,
but then i suppose it would become somebody else's monopoly.
BTW, my Windows 7 works just fine.
Never an unexpected delay for any program.
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He-he :). Linux is fun when I have time to play with it, but serious work has to be done in Windows. Mind you, that's me, not necessarily the world. My biggest Linux issue is documentation - no, man pages don't cut it :(. Most of 'em seem to be written for folk who already know ninety percent of the answer :D. Seems there's a severe lack of technical writers in the open source community ;).
Well, there is one (1) other issue, that being the command line - but, then, I have that same issue in Windows. The issue is not typing commands, but remembering the commands to type. Had the same issue with OS/2. When /d has a different meaning for every command you use, you soon run out of organic RAM to store all the variances :P.
On the other hand, my local server is running a very old version of Red Hat - very old :o! - and works just fine. I don't have to mess with it.
As I said, it's fun to work with Linux distros, but the two (2) biggest failings throughout the various distros, to my thinking, is the lack of drivers - which is curable only by mainstream adoption - and a serious lack of, or inadequate, documentation. And as long as I restrict myself to distros that support available drivers for my hardware, Linux works just fine. No speed penalties, as long as I learn the rules and play by them.
That said, I have Puppy on a USB stick for those times when I have to go into recovery mode :P :P. In that case, it just works :Thmbsup:.
Oh, on the subject of documentation, Jack Wallen has a fairly interesting article on crowdsourced documentation (http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/opensource/fedoras-crowdsourced-open-source-documentation-achievement/3635?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+techrepublic%2Fopensource+%28TechRepublic+Open+Source+Report%29) for Fedora. Might be worth a read for Linux and non-Linux users alike.
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It's not really fair to use a certain operating system your whole life (Windows) and then try out a different one that functions on different paradigms (Debian/Ubuntu) for a few hours and then say this new one is stupid/useless/whatever simply because you can't figure it out.
What you are experiencing is probably what your mom/grandma feels like any time she uses her computer! Spend time with it. Learn how to do the things you want to do with it, in the way it is done on that OS. Then, once it's not your personal knowledge/skill with the OS that is holding you back, but actually the OS itself, you can make a more qualified judgement on whether or not the OS is stupid/useless/whatever.
I recently read a "blog entry" by an Apple user who tried out Windows 7 and thought it was the most useless OS ever, simply because he couldn't figure things out, and his go-to Windows expert apparently wasn't expert enough to know about setting Environment Variables. It's really painful to read knowing that the guy is condemning the entire OS based on some very fundamental, beginner's mistakes. And he's a pretty smart guy. He just has been using a different paradigm (Apple OSes) for years and years and years and doesn't know how to do things the Microsoft way.
If you're interested, you can read it here: My Adventures with Windows 7 (http://erasmatazz.com/TheLibrary/GameDesign/Windows7/Windows7.html).
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He-he :). Linux is fun when I have time to play with it, but serious work has to be done in Windows. Mind you, that's me, not necessarily the world. My biggest Linux issue is documentation - no, man pages don't cut it :(. Most of 'em seem to be written for folk who already know ninety percent of the answer :D. Seems there's a severe lack of technical writers in the open source community ;).
Well, there is one (1) other issue, that being the command line - but, then, I have that same issue in Windows. The issue is not typing commands, but remembering the commands to type. Had the same issue with OS/2. When /d has a different meaning for every command you use, you soon run out of organic RAM to store all the variances :P.
On the other hand, my local server is running a very old version of Red Hat - very old :o! - and works just fine. I don't have to mess with it.
As I said, it's fun to work with Linux distros, but the two (2) biggest failings throughout the various distros, to my thinking, is the lack of drivers - which is curable only by mainstream adoption - and a serious lack of, or inadequate, documentation. And as long as I restrict myself to distros that support available drivers for my hardware, Linux works just fine. No speed penalties, as long as I learn the rules and play by them.
That said, I have Puppy on a USB stick for those times when I have to go into recovery mode :P :P. In that case, it just works :Thmbsup:.
Oh, on the subject of documentation, Jack Wallen has a fairly interesting article on crowdsourced documentation (http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/opensource/fedoras-crowdsourced-open-source-documentation-achievement/3635?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+techrepublic%2Fopensource+%28TechRepublic+Open+Source+Report%29) for Fedora. Might be worth a read for Linux and non-Linux users alike.
-barney
Hi Barney, I'd like to respond to your post because I believe I have some answers to move the discussion along.
1. Drivers. Debian culture at least (unknown about the other distros) has an extra complexity related to the fact that raw Debian is not supposed to have any proprietary stuff in it, cheating with which is why MS is "why you can only get work done in Windows". So unfortunately, because businesses do what businesses do, including Soap Box territory, drivers are often only "proprietary blobs".
So while I respect the concept of pure Debian, in practice the Linux discussion is about new users wanting to use Linux. New users need help. Needing help usually requires proprietary blobs. Now, uBuntu got where it is, because it is mostly just a "Newbie candycoating" of raw Debian. But even uBuntu isn't perfect (some would say grumpily far from it!) So then you get to a theme I cooked up, borrowing from the Marines, "There Are Many Linux Distros, But This One Is Mine".
So if you, one Barney the New Linux User, needs a distro with drivers... then ... look for a distro with drivers! Forget the "Brand Name of Ubuntu", you need ... drivers. On my particular test box for Linux, Ubuntu made some random decision across all branches that hosed my box after whatever month, something like Oct 2010. But I want my Linux! So, follow the humor: Ubuntu is a Sub-Distro of Debian, but it nuked my particular comp, so I went looking for a Sub-Sub-Debian distro! And I found one - forgive me for copping laziness but check that other thread for the exact name of the distro. Point is, Drivers. Problem 1 solved for me. You just need *your* distro. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work for me.
2. Documentation
"Is that all that's stopping you?" I'd say that's one of the EASIEST hurdles to solve! Put a bit over-simplified, "what do you need documented, and give me three days." I'd say the HARD issues are what to do about Windows only versions of programs that don't behave in Wine, etc etc. Documentation? Bleh! Cake!
And as for remembering commands for the command line? Two answers there. 1, just make a list of commands! A 5 page list should have about everything you need, and if it doesn't, make the font smaller! : ) Now, if the STYLE of the command line annoys you, and I am maybe 5 years too late to be a command line junkie, then look for an App version that puts it in a GUI shell.
And if it doesn't exist? Wait for it, this is where I'll get rained on with oranges... *commission* it! Chances are what is failing you is not some monster Enterprise accounting package, but some low level "dumb" feature that (maybe) only exists in the command line. So, rather than wringing your hands in despair, spend some $80, get a coder to write it for you in 7 hours. That's my killer-app lesson from this year. And it's not just Linux, it's ANY platform. You need X widget, it doesn't exist, don't just stand around for a year hoping someone will make it. Just commission it! This is a US site, most of us have a job, so spend $80 for an app that makes or breaks you! (Heh the one I am doing is falling into my delusions of feature creep so it's getting a little more expensive, but same idea!)
Whew!
Your fighting TWO multi-billion dollar corporations who are trying their various ways of discouraging you from using a Free (!!) operating system, so you have to come at this from a fighter's perspective.
Yours,
--Tao
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I'm solid enough on Windows and I don't know what an Environment Variable is either! So there is something to be said about Discoverability.
However, I believe there is a meta-meme here. You have Windows because Everybody Uses Windows, then once you get into Not-Windows, you need a REASON to go Not-Windows. Then once you have a reason to go Not-Windows, you get into the fight of Mac vs Linux. So you need very clear reasons to go Not-Mac and end up on Linux.
Then once you are positive you want Not-Windows Not-Mac, then Linux is a good place to start, then you play with distros and sub-distros until you are happy.
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I'm solid enough on Windows and I don't know what an Environment Variable is either! So there is something to be said about Discoverability.
However, I believe there is a meta-meme here. You have Windows because Everybody Uses Windows, then once you get into Not-Windows, you need a REASON to go Not-Windows. Then once you have a reason to go Not-Windows, you get into the fight of Mac vs Linux. So you need very clear reasons to go Not-Mac and end up on Linux.
Then once you are positive you want Not-Windows Not-Mac, then Linux is a good place to start, then you play with distros and sub-distros until you are happy.
-TaoPhoenix
Just a personal opinion, but I think Richard Stallman puts forward all the best arguments to use GNU Linux, if you are looking for a reason.
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It's not really fair to use a certain operating system your whole life (Windows) and then try out a different one that functions on different paradigms (Debian/Ubuntu) for a few hours and then say this new one is stupid/useless/whatever simply because you can't figure it out.
-Deozaan
I hope you didn't interpret what i said to mean a plain and simple put down of Linux Mint.
On the contrary, i have great respect for Clem and those who lend him a hand.
Believe me, it's not the first time i try out LM.
When you spend hours trying to figure things out and the result is short of satisfactory,
then the temptation to lose your cool is there. Frustration, you know!
What you are experiencing is probably what your mom/grandma feels like any time she uses her computer! Spend time with it. Learn how to do the things you want to do with it, in the way it is done on that OS. Then, once it's not your personal knowledge/skill with the OS that is holding you back, but actually the OS itself, you can make a more qualified judgement on whether or not the OS is stupid/useless/whatever.
I recently read a "blog entry" by an Apple user who tried out Windows 7 and thought it was the most useless OS ever, simply because he couldn't figure things out, and his go-to Windows expert apparently wasn't expert enough to know about setting Environment Variables. It's really painful to read knowing that the guy is condemning the entire OS based on some very fundamental, beginner's mistakes. And he's a pretty smart guy. He just has been using a different paradigm (Apple OSes) for years and years and years and doesn't know how to do things the Microsoft way.
If you're interested, you can read it here: My Adventures with Windows 7 (http://erasmatazz.com/TheLibrary/GameDesign/Windows7/Windows7.html).
-Deozaan
This i understand. The fact that i spend most of my time with Windows doesn't help does it.
Do appreciate your post and hope to read up on your article as well as all the other things posted here.
It's starting to be quite a book! :)
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...drivers are often only "proprietary blobs".
-TaoPhoenix
Granted. But we need stuff to run whatever hardware we have. I can appreciate the purity issue, even endorse it. But at the end of the day (actually by mid-morning) we need a functional system. And that system involves both hardware and software. Without the software, e.g., drivers, the system is a paperweight. End of story.
Documentation? Bleh! Cake!
-TaoPhoenix
If so, it needs more time in the oven :P. What little documentation I've seen assumes perfection. But that's not a *nix problem, per se, so much as an industry-wide trend. How often do you see software installation instructions, regardless the OS, that assume a perfect install and make no allowance for an install that fails in process? Oh, and about that three (3) days thing. I'm installing/using now, I need the documentation now. Three (3) day wait? I'll go elsewhere.
... *commission* it!
-TaoPhoenix
More than once, that have I done. The problem, of course, is finding someone capable of performing the job. And settling on amount can be, as you've mentioned/implied, a difficult issue.
It's not really fair to use a certain operating system your whole life (Windows) and then try out a different one that functions on different paradigms (Debian/Ubuntu) for a few hours and then say this new one is stupid/useless/whatever simply because you can't figure it out.
-Deozaan
Hm-m-m ... I started out with Big Iron Unix, several different flavours, dependent upon the vendor. On a personal level, I started with calculator scripts, then Tandy DOS, then MS DOS/IBM DOS. There were forays into CP/M (anyone remember that one :)?), OS-9, PICS (beautiful database capability, you just had to rebuild it every weekend :tellme:), a few others that have long since passed by the wayside.
I've gathered from conversations here that a number of folk my age have had similar experience. So be careful when you make that, "... your whole life ...," accusation :P :P.
When I gave my then-retired father a laptop, he didn't care what made it run, he just wanted it to run. He wanted email because he'd been told he needed it. He wanted to browse the Web to find things and just because he wanted to do so. He didn't want a financial program, he didn't want a document processor. One (1) thing he did want, though, was not to be bothered with daily, plebeian maintenance tasks. He wanted the TV/movie computer - you turn it on and it works. At that time, Linux didn't have a desktop interface (c'mon, x-windows?), so Windows was about the only option. He wanted something that just worked, and Windows did. (Apple did, but it was just too damned expensive - a habit they've maintained over the years.)
OK, I wasn't trying to turn this into an OS conflagration. I just wanted to mention the problems I'd had with various flavours of Linux, and pretty much support what I assumed was the intent of the original post.
But I stand by my statements in regard to documentation and drivers. They are the two (2) biggest failings/drawbacks in regard to Linux' adoption on a wider scale.
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I'll give this topic a crack. Thank you, dantheman, for the opportunity.
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I've spent some considerable time over the last week trying to get into Linux, especially with LinuxMint which seems to be the second best after Ubuntu.-dantheman
First, Mint is the fattest and heaviest of all the Linux distros. Bring lots of hardware and GPU power if you're going to run it. By "second best" I assume you mean second most popular. Linux popularity of any given Linux distro ebbs and flows. While Debian is quite fine, I contend that Ubuntu is about the worst introduction someone can have to Linux, especially if they think all of Ubuntu's problems are shared among other distros. I really like openSUSE and Fedora, but tend to use openSUSE at home simply because it's good, boring, and quite productive.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ] (http://www.opensuse.org/)
This is also why I suggest you take your time with Linux. Immersion is best, but install it on a second machine if you have one and do similar tasks that you perform on your Windows system. If you're looking to switch full time to Linux, then fine. If you're merely dabbling for the fun of it, then you're always going to think Linux comes up short. Back in '05-'06, I spent almost a year playing with a few Linux distros because of my dissatisfaction with Vista and then the prospect of having to buy yet another Microsoft OS in Win7 that I didn't want. I knew what I wanted from my computer and what I could live without.
Turns out, though, that I have a lot more software available right away with Linux than I ever did with Windows. From calculators to text editors to image editors and viewers to HTML editors, vast set of programming tools at hand, choice of file systems for my HDs, superior file management, stupid-easy installation and upgrades (online, network, DVD, CD, LiveCD), games - yes!, renamers, disc burning, and on and on -- all free. openSUSE not only gives me a help file built into the distro, but access to their community forums to get any question I have answered.
In the end, using Linux is about choice. You get to choose:
-- Your distro based on your personal preferences, your hardware, or any other need, productive or otherwise.
-- Which desktop environment you like, even if you want it to perfectly mimic Win7 or OSX!
-- Which software you use and how you'll use it, not a corporation designed to bleed your wallet.
-- When and whether you upgrade your system.
-- What to do with all the money you save on anti-virus software scams, extra hardware requirements, etc.
If you do switch, go all-in. If not, enjoy Windows. Most of your time is likely spent in the browser anyway; how you get there is your choice. :)
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...and then the prospect of having to buy yet another Microsoft OS in Win7 that I didn't want.-zridling
Why did you HAVE to? This is much the same mindset many see when a new distribution of Linux comes out. You feel you "must" upgrade, out of some intrinsic "need" to upgrade. No one makes you upgrade the Windows OS you have. Heck, XP has been supported for HOW LONG? Even if Windows 8 goes RTM this year, Windows 7 will be supported for how much longer?
Don't take my comments the wrong way, I am not pro-any program/OS/software. But, I believe in quashing what I find to be FUD. No one forces a user to upgrade their Windows installation but the user. Now, if this is a business environment, that is a different story and likely going to occur regardless of what OS you run. That is simply called the life-cycle process.
Turns out, though, that I have a lot more software available right away with Linux than I ever did with Windows. From calculators to text editors to image editors and viewers to HTML editors, vast set of programming tools at hand, choice of file systems for my HDs, superior file management, stupid-easy installation and upgrades (online, network, DVD, CD, LiveCD), games - yes!, renamers, disc burning, and on and on -- all free. openSUSE not only gives me a help file built into the distro, but access to their community forums to get any question I have answered.-zridling
And on this, MS simply cannot include many of these tools. Many of the tools in any Linux distribution are not made by the distro maintainer, but instead brought on and developed by the community. MS has had their hands slapped too many times and must be careful not to be anti-competitive when they include a new tool. Heck, I expect backlash with the inclusion of A/V products in Windows 8. Not that I support the backlash, but I see it coming from major vendors like Mcafee and Symantec.
I like Linux, I use it. Backtrack, yes it is a pen-test distro, is my distro of choice for daily use. I've customized it and I prefer the apt package management system over yum or rpm. OpenSUSE is nice but I am used to apt and that is the sole thing that really ties me to the debian-based distros.
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LM Debian is supposed to be the future.
Guess the future isn't here yet...
You're going with tagline bashing for the brands because you can make windows work for you but you don't want linux to work on it's own but it should be your way or high way. Trust me, been there, bashed linux, cursed linux and now switched to linux. Hell some of my bashing answers on linux are still archived on this forum. As for brand tagline bashing "for the future type"...if i got that route then i can even digg some of the known brands in apple and windows industry for their useless stuff. But...I digress.
The installation process automatically assigns the amount for swap.
This is where you have to fix things. Installation process can't decide the right amount of the Swap for you. That is for you to decide because you know the configutation better than the installer. Installers only check for minimum required disk space and RAM. Always assign swap space more than what installer tells you to do.
As for the linux drivers excuse, it is getting older and tiresome. Other than few soundcard, graphics and few non-USB hardwares, linux supports USB based devices out of the box. So new mobiles, camera, scanners, printers with USB plug are supported out of the box. You don't need to have model specific drivers for them if they have USB built in.
Documentation - Ubuntu and the debian based distros carry a lot of documentation for minute things. Not only that but "manual" aka man command is always there for the support of the documentation for smallest library out there on linux.
No one makes you upgrade the Windows OS you have.
Application developers do. There are people who live by some of the applications from brands like corel, adobe, cisco and others. If these brands stop supporting some products and only allow the product for future versions of windows, people are forced to upgrade. In case of linux there is no such case like that. I can go on with the list like.. VS upgrades and the .NET developers forcing people to upgrade because they can't allow .NET 4 on windows 2000. Some lifecycles are necessary to push innovation, some are forced. In case of windows it is always forced. In case of linux, it is dependent on distro because it is upto them to support packages for community. You can have updated package on your older linux box as long as you feed it the new dependency libs.
At the end, it is all dependent on how much you're willing to go ahead to use new system. You didn't learned to use tablets out of the box. Even it has learning curve of it's own for each tablet manufacturer with its own stuff regardless of the underlying operating systems. I bashed linux for development limitations, lack of eye candy, HUD and what not and now happily converted to it because I got tired of walled-garden systems like windows and the limit it offers me. HUD and many new improvements in linux are worth experiencing compared to windows crappy metro. I don't believe in conversion, so point in shouting for linux. It is upto people to see if it is good for them or not. Some people feel good in cages, some do good in playground. So If this is pure bash thread, I don't think anyone can help you with that, hell even apple is useless for windows users if we nitpick things like OP did.
Anyway, good luck with metro. :P
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You feel you "must" upgrade, out of some intrinsic "need" to upgrade. No one makes you upgrade the Windows OS you have.
-Josh
I cordially invite you to go install Windows 3.1, 95, or 98, then come back and post your results here at DC~! ;D :P
Sorry -- couldn't resist that~! :D Just poking fun~!
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Mind you Renegade, Windows 95 was lightning fast and stable! :Thmbsup:
How i miss the days of Windows 98... :'(
Not really.
Lord knows how many times i had to reboot Windows 98 SE before it finally kicked in properly.
Now have Ubuntu "WUBI" style installed.
It was resource hog at first with updates and Thunderbird (configured to download messages for offline).
But everything is pretty cool right now. :-*
As zridling put it, perhaps OpenSUSE would be much lighter and easier to work with.
If it has a WUBI style installation, perhaps i can give it a try.
If there's one thing that i hear people pushing Linux repeat,
it's the fact that you don't need an Antivirus program.
Just recently, i read something about one of Apple's products that will likely be prone to this nightmare during 2012.
What can guarantee it won't happen to Linux too?
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The "You don't need an antivirus application" point is being proven very moot, very quickly. Apple and their walled garden are showing that EVERY, YES EVERY, operating system is vulnerable, it is just a matter of how much benefit is gained from exploiting it. All it is going to take is for a handful of big, largely publicized exploits to occur on Linux and users will see. Right now, the focus is on individual apps within Linux (Apache and various other daemons).
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What can guarantee it won't happen to Linux too?
Linux has it's own set of security issues if you allow it. Script kiddies, google it. So yes, it is possible to have security issues in linux too but not like windows which makes system unstable or like apple even for using anti-virus products. This is the reason you should take care while downloading scripts from the Internet before you run on your terminal. Also avoid unsafe or untrusted repositories.
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I recall looking for a Christmas theme image on the web and caught a trojan or whatever (on Windows) simply by hovering over the image in the search result. Could this ever happen on Linux too?
Don't know if zridling is still listening in, but i recall now one of the issues that i find annoying in Ubuntu.
You can't hide, move or autohide the top panel (as far as i know, you can make it transparent but it will never disappear). That's why i've been dabbing about with LinuxMint (prior to latest WUBI installation). Even auto-hiding quick launch is somewhat... anyway!
Which is better to try out : openSuse Gnome or KDE ?
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No. Browser based scripts are not going to harm linux system because linux doesn't allow tampering to system without root privileges, which is more restrictive than windows, even on folder level permission for file editing or saving or adding new file in specific folder.
Ubuntu 12.04 makes use of unity and in order to hide the dash and the panel, you have to use the add-ons like myunity. If you download these then hiding top panel will take few seconds and you can easily bring the default settings back too.
Gnome 3 is not something I suggest for you because you're not into experimental mode and want something like windows. So KDE should do fine for you. It works exactly like Windows desktop, even more with different ways to manage things ofcourse. Also if you want something that takes minimal resource, try Xubuntu or any XFCE based distro. You can have more than one window manager on Opensuse. Just download the KDE, XFCE or gnome and choose the window manager during login screen.
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Mahesk2k, that was a good tip for Ubuntu, thanks! :)
There's no "autohide" option for the top panel, but transparency and other tips make it okay.
That panel issue which made its way elsewhere (like LinuxMint) really had me bubbling.
After all, Linux is supposed to be the most flexible or versatile OS in the world and here we are, stuck with a frozen IE style interface!
No way to hide the titlebar (=panel), autohide it or put it somewhere else (still can't). Sheesh! :down:
If Ubuntu (no.1 in rank) continues to behave this way, i don't know how they can seduce more Windows users.
In that case, is Gnome 3 the way to go for a true Linux experience?
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Re: Having to upgrade the OS, at my limited understanding that wasn't FUD, it was an artifact of the Linux Package system, where upgrading more than a version or two of an application like Firefox required whole new libraries, ... that usually only appeared with the next update of the OS.
I lost a month of my life trying to resolve dependencies by hand once.
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[EDIT]
I had a much longer and verbose, then a much shorter and terse answer, but in the end, both brevity (the soul of wit) and pedantics went out the window, so here is my answer to simply expound upon this:
Yes, Linux is a hobby, if you choose to treat it like one.
That is, something one dabbles with on a weekend, occasionally accomplishing something amazing, more often than not swearing and threatening to kick it down the sewer. Yet one resolutely soldiers on with wrench, hammer, and sandpaper, and when it's finally polished and purring like a kitten, it gets shown to friends and fellow enthusiasts to rounds of acclaim.
If that's how you see it or feel about it, then Yes, stick with Windows for "serious" work and play with your choice of distro when you get an itch to tinker with something that appears to be half-broke much of the time, trying to make something of it. That's what most hobbies are all about.
For others (e.g. yours truly) however, it is every bit as basic and essential as any other operating system. Just like users of Windows or Mac OSX, we do many of the same things, use different software, swear at bugs, work around shortcomings and occasionally mutter "I'm so glad I don't have to use [other operating system], my work would be impossible!".
For me, it's not a hobby. Bugs are mortal enemies, not curiosities to scoff at. Optimization is a task to be seized upon, not a pipe dream involving expensive hardware alone. Software is bent to my will or it doesn't survive, rather than vice-versa. A terminal is where I issue commands, not polite requests.
Most importantly, Linux is how I get work done, and it's proven more than adequate for the job. Sure, there are some Windows programs I miss (xPlorer2, Notepadd++), but I'm not crippled without them.
For the record, I'm running snappily with Debian Wheezy (production work on a Testing system? GASP!) on a 2.4 GHz single-core AMD 64 4000+, 4 GB RAM, a 160 GB hard drive, and ATI Radeon HD 2600XT graphics.
I abandoned Xubuntu a year and a half ago and never looked back (running waaay too slow, surprised?).
In that case, is Gnome 3 the way to go for a true Linux experience?
I'll just say this; A "true Linux experience" is not dependent on any gui or distro, it's whatever works for you.
If Gnome 3 works and does what you want it to, then the answer is "Yes!"; for others... not a chance.
Personally, I use Xfce, because it (wait for it...) works for me, and so it is (to me) a "true" Linux experience; in fact, one I am constantly trying to emulate when I get sat in front of a Windows machine.
... BTW, with Xfce, you can auto-hide panels, place them wherever you want, in any size. :Thmbsup:
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There's no "autohide" option for the top panel, but transparency and other tips make it okay.
There is a reason why Unity has no autohide or hide option for top panel. If you notice that unity offers Mac OS style global menu for the applications and the close/maximize buttons are also on that panel. That is why they dont want you to use that option right out of the box, so that you can break display manager. You can do that ofcouse but it requires a bit tweaking. See the image below to understand why top panel is not hidden and how it is used in global menus and window controls.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg259/scaled.php?server=259&filename=deskunity.jpg&res=landing
You don't have to hate ubuntu for that because unity is display manager which ubuntu is using and it is the feature of unity. So you don't have to blame ubuntu linux community for that. It is from the unity developers which are interested to make this minimalistic desktop like apple.
If you don't like unity on ubuntu, you can install gnome 3 which is slightly similar to unity but has different options and yes they do allow top panel hiding. Same goes for XFCE and KDE, MATE, Cinnamon and other display managers. Unity is totally new display manager and is meant for minimalistic interface and usage.
If Ubuntu (no.1 in rank) continues to behave this way, i don't know how they can seduce more Windows users.
Goal of linux is not to seduce people to use it. Neither canonical (makers of ubuntu) or other linux communities want that. They want linux to have more choices or flavors in the way people want. For example, I like unity but you definitely will love KDE because you want it to work like windows. Gnome 3 is loved by people who like simple and minimalistic and quick desktop. XFCE and Cinnamon, MATE and LXDE are the distros for people who like menu style accessibility. So you have more than 11 display manager choices to choose from. No need to seduce users to come to use them. You can use any as per your choice.
In that case, is Gnome 3 the way to go for a true Linux experience?
There is no such thing like true linux experience. You can use xfce and feel comfortable. Or you can experiment like me and love unity. Or you can use gnome 3 for your quick usage and eye candy desktop. Like this each person has it's own goal for linux desktop. So like windows or apple, you don't have one goal shared by all users but different choices to in almost everything you do with linux. When you understand this freedom, you get that true experience. Eye candy stuff with compiz effects and few desktop tricks is not the way of linux. It is more of windows or apple way.
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@Josh:
Remember, too, that to this day, if I visit a large retailer to buy a computer, I'm also forced to buy a copy of Windows I'll never use. That's legal theft. And now Microsoft is rocketing toward the closed Apple model. Good luck with that in these times.
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@zridling,
What is Windows installed on a computer? 125.00?
The price of a good backup disk.
Didn't Dell make one with Linux installed?
Do you think people won't be able to install Linux over/or next to Windows 8?
BTW, i've been following the posts here.
When i search for related stuff, i get lost and lose confidence in what was posted or reported.
It's good to read you speak out with passion and knowledge.
Who knows! Perhaps i'll drop Windows once and for all! :P
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Dell has been on-off with Linux. I lost track of it.
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Dell has had an N series of machines for their business line that comes with OpenDOS for quite a while. Just look for the Precision T1600n. I've had ~50 of the T1500/T1600s in the field for a year or so, and they're really nice machines.
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That's legal theft.
-zridling
How is that theft?
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I do have N serier, Dell Vostro 1550 machine and it works fine. It has ubuntu 11.04 in it which got replaced with 12.04 last month. I hate dell's forced windows license purchase. Sometimes they force the license purchase on us by showing no option of operating system other than windows. I feel that is wrong. I don't want to waste my money on windows license.
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That's a problem with Dell, isn't it? And how is that theft? If you don't like their licensing then don't buy, right?
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I never said that was theft. That was more like forced licensing to make money. As for buying, their other components works way better than HP or ACER. So "you don't like it, then don't buy it"- just don't work for me. So as a customer I am demanding that from them which is again fair, and to some extent it works because they do release one model out of 10 for linux or freeDOS.
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^ Above that was said to be theft (and never answered), and then you dovetailed on the conversation with your comments, which was the reason for the question.
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Speaking of hobby...! :D
I've been reading here and there that it is possible to install LinuxMint's latest Maya Cinnamon within Ubuntu 12.04. Have tried a few of the suggestions but not getting it to work.
Did try to install LM Maya with .iso on DVD/RW. It runs but won't install. Apparently it might be because i have to burn it to a DVD/R only. Whatever!
Did also try uNetbootin.
It told me to format to fat32 so i did but it kept telling me to format it to fat32.
Using a WD 150G usb storage device that i wiped i formatted to fat32 but i guess that it isn't good enough.
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^ Above that was said to be theft (and never answered), and then you dovetailed on the conversation with your comments, which was the reason for the question.
What type of answer you're expecting from me or zaine? Are you going to get into argument just because zaine's wrong choice of word "theft". Or you just want to disagree because I agree with zaine's view despite his wrong choice of word "theft"? You know very well that was wrong choice of word for explaining unfair practice of the hardware vendors. Are we doing some orthography bickering here? I mean your sarcastic reply was uncalled for especially when you know that more than 99% of the laptop manufacturers install windows by default and don't give options for linux or freedos for which your sarcastic reply was -"you don't like it, don't buy it". So basically your argument was for the sake of it. You are expecting that people should not even express their views towards such vendors policies and just don't buy the computer at all if they don't like vendor policies(which makes 99% of the computer vendors). I must say that reply was in more of rude taste. Whatever...
Did try to install LM Maya with .iso on DVD/RW. It runs but won't install. Apparently it might be because i have to burn it to a DVD/R only. Whatever!
dantheman, How about making ext3 or ext4 partition with Linux Mint installer and then installing in it?
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^ Sorry... I wasn't trying to be argumentative- trying to discuss on a discussion forum. Some people do believe that 'theft' is the right word, and I wanted to have a conversation. Then the response. Pah... close to giving up on discussing anything.
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Don't give up wraith808! 8)
I can't count the times my choice of words was poor or totally inappropriate (for which i'm sorry).
Do tend to let my temper go too easily at times and we forget that we deal with real human beings when we post things.
With regards to LinuxMint13, well, i'm perhaps too quick on the gun. I don't know.
Here's what i get when trying to install with .iso burned to DVD/R
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b9by9b5f8w272wh/2012-05-26%2008.47.02.jpg
That's why, if i can install it via WUBI it might give me a way to get it in.
But, apparently you can't install and get a .32bit LinuxMint .iso to work in WUBI.
So, i'm back to square one.
I like WUBI style 'cause i can remove it without a problem (grub etc.)
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Linux Mint 12 (Lisa) LXDE (32 bit), (657 MB .iso), Live CD or install. For speed, stability, ease of use and installation. The web-based package installation interface with Software Manager has 36,000+ applications available with one click. Look at DistroWatch 2012-03-09 Mint. Min. Spec.: x86, 256 MB RAM, 3 GB hard disk space if installed, 800x600 resolution, CD or DVD drive or USB port. The DVD versions reportedly have a lot on them.
It worked perfectly as a Live CD. The speed, stability and ease of use claims are true. I installed it to my hard drive, upgraded to Firefox 11 with some add-ons and added apps.
I use a custom/remastered Puppy version Live CD for email and I use a Live CD version of Knoppix for general Internet surfing. Both work well and should be fairly safe since they are read-only CDs that load entirely to RAM. I think the Linux Mint hard drive install is quite safe but the box it is on has no user data and reinstalling Mint would be fast and easy.
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LXDE seems to be the solid option, thank you sword.
This is a basic non-geek question, but i just have to ask it.
What does it mean when it is supported until a specific date?
Can we upgrade the OS or does it have to be un-installed/re-installed?
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BTW sword, finally decided to take LXDE for a spin and you were 100% right!
Thanks a bunch! :Thmbsup:
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I don't know how *Linux* uses the term, "supported till a certain date" since I'm using 'Live' CDs. I do have some experience using old, sometimes very old, CDs of Linux iso images. If the CD works 'Live' on your hardware, it will keep on working and the worst you get is, for example, in a Puppy log-in where the default browser is an old version of 'IceWeasel', is a screen with, "Oops, URL not found", which you can just ignore.
Upgrading within a version in Mint could not be easier. At the top bar there is a 'shield' shaped icon with, "i" in it. Mine currently shows, "9 recommended updates available (39MB)". If you open this your system will be checked and the updates will be listed with check boxes and 'rating' numbers ( 1 - 5 ) beside items. "1" is highly recommended and *very* safe. I chose not to upgrade Firefox from v11 to v12 by unchecking the checkbox. You can do the same for upgrades numbered 4 or 5 if they are not important to you since there is a small chance, according to what I read, they might interfere with some other files. In Mint 'Applications> Other> Upgrade to DVD edition' you are given the opportunity to upgrade and I think you have choices. There is 'Applications> Other> Update Manager' that I've not explored, along with Synaptic Package Manager and GDebi Package Installer. I believe the same process works on an install to CD-RW (probably not big enough), DVD-RW or USB flash drive.
I've read about version upgrades and will review my notes and let you know.
@dantheman Re. today at 01:26:32 "...LXDE for a spin..."
Great. You are welcome.
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Heck, my friend has Firefox running on an old XP and it performs twice as fast as on my system! :-[-dantheman
Another proof that Linux is overrated.
Linux might be the currently preferred "wannabe geek system". So what? Technically, it is average at best.
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Yes, Linux can be a hobby but Linux can never ever ever be overrated because no one ever fully rates it correctly. :P
Over the years though, and speaking from a guy who still can't get the time to learn Linux, it's more like a vacation.
Anytime I have to switch a Windows that has gone bonkers, I find I take a brief vacation and install Linux and then reread some obscure info and then Linux becomes my default OS until something breaks or I want to play a Windows specific game. It keeps me from learning Linux ever but it fixed my Linux headaches. Instead of troubleshooting, I just go back to Windows and vice versa.
Over the years though, expiration date for support has become a feature. If your distro is no longer supported, then chances are you save yourselves from the headache of having to "un-set" some hog like Compiz or deal with the Gnome3 issue or worry about why something causes this particular install to not work.
It's where Mint is the future IMO. Gnome bothering you? Hello MATE. Constantly breaking something? Hello update manager with colored icons. It's the only OS I know that seems to still be updating itself for non-techies. It's one weakness is that it's still an OS so additions on the scale of new features you normally expect from regular software still crawls to a snail and you get mostly backend, Ubuntu upstream or aesthetic changes. Software are also never adopted. There's no Mint LibreOffice with exclusive Mint features for additional usability but Mint is the only one where fellow users used to ask how to adopt an "everybody could get why you want this on your OS feature" in MintMenu to their Ubuntu/other distro.
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It's where Mint is the future IMO. Gnome bothering you? Hello MATE. -Paul Keith
Different window managers and desktop environments are available on many platforms, even Windows. :P
Constantly breaking something? Hello update manager with colored icons.-Paul Keith
I doubt the icons will stop the breaking.
After all, Mint is built very well and looks reasonable, however it is based on Ubuntu which is known to break a lot, so I never gave it a run. I used the Debian Edition on some machines until quite recently when the last LMDE machine died. Last night I updated my dual-boot Fedora to Fedora 17...
Still, FreeBSD (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=30351.0) is the superior system. :D (Could not resist.)
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MATE is not a WM or DE though. That's what most techies may underrate.
It's a reactive WM or DE. Techies being more knowledgeable and full of hacking culture tend to overlook that so it gets understated. MATE, unlike other WM/DEs, does not aim to innovate, add superior features, add exclusive features but instead aims to save. By saving people from Gnome3, even if it's a selfish type of saving (a hotfix), it became more notable than the other obscure WMs/DEs when it was first released to people who hated Gnome3.
I'm not saying it did it to so great an effect that everyone knew about it but it approached the issue with enough of an urgency that people don't psychologically approach MATE as WM or DE. They approach it like a cool app feature which is what makes the effort stand apart from many other OS features.
As far as the icons, that's because of hindsight.
One of the main criticisms for the pre-colored icon era Mint was that it wasn't ready for newbie PC user because updating would break something. Of course this was one of those "extreme nitpicky" situations where advanced users pretend to see through the casual users' plight without realizing that this was less of an update problem and more of a general stability problem.
True to Clem's unique approach to elegance though, Mint did not just stop and wait. They actually went ahead and did it and over time it became less of a safety net and more of a "convenience factor".
Still to quote Futurama: “When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.” ...but it is still a unique social approach on improving an OS that many OS lacks especially from the open source side. Even browsers like Firefox and Chrome tend to be "show up" and then rely on add-ons and mini-updates and only Opera has really had a browser ui reincarnation although it's often on the regressive side (hiding features rather than making cool features easier to find). Mint on the other hand actually addressed people's problems and brought those new MintApps to the forefront basic or simple tweaks as they may be to the hacking culture of OSS. Sure many of the improvements has gone by the wayside but it's still one of the few OS's that upgrades itself like a MMORPG/regularly updated game/regularly updated web service than an operating system. The tech inferiority/superiority itself is irrelevant.
Bad low spec games could become one of the best games if it gets regularly updated to the point of constantly adding new content that you're excited to keep up on news about it. Especially for free, that's how you create currency by using free "new" features as a manner of building up supply and demand or more aptly anticipate and upgrade. Without that value, many people might not even find a reason to keep up to date with a product's changelog.
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Just stumbled on this site that offers computers with a few different Linux makes installed:
http://zareason.com/shop/home.php
(Wonder how much attention the new Windows8 Preview will be getting?).
Dabbing with WUBI (trying to get LM 13 to work on .32bit) made it unstable (so i uninstalled).
Have to admit it, Windows 7 is the most solid OS i've seen yet.
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We like Windows 7: it's faster than Vista, makes better use of your system resources, is packed with interesting features, and looks great, too.
But that doesn't mean it's perfect, of course. If you've moved to Windows 7 recently then you might have noticed various upgrade problems, interface issues and features that seem to have disappeared entirely, among many other complications with the new system.
Don't despair, though - while these problems can be really frustrating, answers are beginning to appear. We've uncovered some of the best and most effective solutions around, so follow our guide and your Windows 7 installation will soon be back on track.
http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/22-common-windows-7-problems-solved-655655
...and I don't even have W7 and last time I tried one, it was so sluggish albeit the hardware was old.
It's also worth noting that the older versions of LM are known for being more installation-robust but of course the problem arises from hardware compatibility.
It could be my own bias for having LM10 but I've blog comments about LM11, LM12 and LM 13 that made me hesitate in trying them out. Of course these same complaints existed before and were often vague plus the changes in mint4win are easy to spot in the LM forums:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=159&t=103360
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We like Windows 7: it's faster than Vista
It only has different default settings which is not OS-related.
makes better use of your system resources
Same.
is packed with interesting features, and looks great, too.
No.
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We like Windows 7: it's faster than Vista
It only has different default settings which is not OS-related.
-Tuxman
Source?
makes better use of your system resources
Same.
Source?
is packed with interesting features, and looks great, too.
No.
Source?
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Source? -Josh
services.msc.
Source? -Josh
services.msc.
Source? -Josh
Subjective impression.
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MATE is not a WM or DE though. That's what most techies may underrate.
MATE is a window manager based on gnome 2 source code. It is going to be ported on GTK3+ soon. I am tracking mate changes on github and it is DE written over gnome 2. It was forked because many old gnome 2 users wanted menu based panel navigation instead of gnome3.
Anyway, this thread was more of a drivel rather than problem solving or positive look towards linux, so I am not surprised that many other linux users on DC are ignoring it. If OP was that interested in linux he could have thought about fixing issues rather than taking potshots. Some of the issues mentioned here are usually discussed on linux forums and can be easily tackled but there seems to be no interest on that part. So this is kinda derailed discussion.
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MATE is a window manager based on gnome 2 source code.
-mahesh2k
Gnome 2 is not a window manager.
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So We should call it Shell instead of DE/WM?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME
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DE is fine. A desktop environment contains the "desktop" and some applications AFAIK, like KDE, so Gnome 2 is a DE too (Evolution etc.).
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Once again, trolling a topic because of semantics issues.
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No, because of wrong things said.
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MATE is a window manager based on gnome 2 source code.
-mahesh2k
Gnome 2 is not a window manager.
-Tuxman
Acknowledged (minor) technical distinction to be sure. But it hardly matters in the context of this particular discussion. :)
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MATE is not a WM or DE though. That's what most techies may underrate.
MATE is a window manager based on gnome 2 source code. It is going to be ported on GTK3+ soon. I am tracking mate changes on github and it is DE written over gnome 2. It was forked because many old gnome 2 users wanted menu based panel navigation instead of gnome3.
-mahesh2k
Why didn't they port said WM or shell then from the beginning? (You know...before calling it Gnome 3)
Did no one seriously think people wouldn't want menu based panel navigation or however the techies phrases it?
Like I said, underration. There's two main philosophical need why a DM or WM or shell is made besides a hobby.
1) Someone wants to port over a better or more familiar user interface.
2) Someone wants to bring something better.
MATE was not done/is not being ported for that purpose. Worse, gnome 2 was not broken. Even worse, not many embrace it's attempt.
"Oh it's just a WM."
"Oh it's going to be ported anyway."
To quote the first paragraph of one of the first search results when you Google for Gnome 3 sucks:
http://ingeek.com/yes-gnome-3-sucks/
What a complete disaster. More troubling than the technical implications is the attitude prevalent among developers and fans of this holy new version of Gnome that we should adapt to our computers rather than have them adapt to us. A perfect example of why programmers, just like many other types of smart people, suck. They think their intelligence qualifies them to make better choices for others.
The next paragraph also makes a case for why it is a hobby regardless whether the OP was serious or shallow or trolling in the thread:
Open source is a fantastic development model. It produces superior software at an obviously lower price, which results in a win-win situation for the consumer. I do however believe that one of the underlying causes of what I will refer to as “the Gnome 3 problem” is the simple fact that free and open source software is not market-driven to the extent that commercial software is. A commercial software firm would never dream of implementing such radical and unpopular changes especially in such a short period of time. It would be disastrous. Users would revolt with their wallets and money would be lost. Just imagine if Microsoft Windows were to completely revamp their front-end; remove desktop icons, minimize and maximize buttons, and kill the start menu. It would be suicide.
I mean look at your reply even. You basically omitted all context only to stick with a technical semantic where you in turn get called for your technical semantic and even if the OP was serious, the essence of his title would be lost and hijacked by whether MATE is or is not a WM/DE.
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Why didn't they port said WM or shell then from the beginning? (You know...before calling it Gnome 3)
What do you mean? I didn't get you here.
Did no one seriously think people wouldn't want menu based panel navigation or however the techies phrases it?
On touch interface menu simply don't work that is why Touch based KDE is different from desktop. Many other WM/DE are thinking about touch interface as well. So this decade is more of change for all of us. Saying it sucks doesn't cut it. I used to hate unity and gnome 3 too but it seems to be making me more productive compared to menus. In case of gnome, they wanted to make interface same for both touch and desktop. Still menu-less interface is not that bad, it's just that windows migrants feel odd using it. Mac and the long term linux are not criticizing gnome 3 as much as windows migrants do. So i don't know what are you trying to prove here with context related to "gnome 3 sucks" when almost every commercial OS has it's shortcoming which are even worst.
MATE was not done/is not being ported for that purpose.
'
You need to read this thread to see how the gnome 3 fork MATE and cinnamon started.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11333073
This thread is from the MATE creator who ported gnome 2 on GTK3 libs on current debian builds that lets it coexist with gnome 3. Though his initial frustration with gnome 3 is now edited. You can use wayback machine to read that post if you want. It was ported because he wanted the traditional gnome 2 interface.
Like I said, underration. There's two main philosophical need why a DM or WM or shell is made besides a hobby.
1) Someone wants to port over a better or more familiar user interface.
2) Someone wants to bring something better.
Gnome 2 is traditional interface which was inspired by old mac interface. Gnome was following mac's design practices. With gnome 3 they made many new changes in the design that doesn't go with regular desktop expectation. MATE was not ported to make it more better, it was ported because people are used to old interface.
The next paragraph also makes a case for why it is a hobby regardless whether the OP was serious or shallow or trolling in the thread:
If you want to make any working thing hobby then nobody can stop you. Even apple and windows can be hobby and we can go on quote trolling with why windows vista sucks, why apple jaguar sucks etc. Point is that just because people don't find it usability in it or learned to fail the new technology doesn't make it hobby, it proves their inability for things.
I mean look at your reply even. You basically omitted all context only to stick with a technical semantic where you in turn get called for your technical semantic and even if the OP was serious, the essence of his title would be lost and hijacked by whether MATE is or is not a WM/DE.
I didn't omitted context, i simply wanted to point out that MATE is now working WM/DE and is not being treated like gnome 2 fork anymore because many parts of it are rewritten. As for my replies being semantically corrected, I have noticed that member doing the same in many other threads with his own ways of trolling for finding semantic arguments which he thinks is right. So i simply ignore his comments as they lack some valuable contribution or are not meant to be helpful at all. As for your point on OP being serious, it was started as a drivel thread and he took more positive approach based on replies he got. If he were to get some replies to agree with him, this thread could have gone in more drivel than being what is currently discussed. OP was far from serious.
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Yes, OP was far from serious hence my usage of the word "If".
Again I go back to the article:
Forced change (key word: forced), by definition, causes friction and therefore hurts productivity.
As you said, MATE broke the mentality of a WM ported for the better. Therefore it's not your traditional WM. It was a port to bring back a one generation change because of the forced change that occurred.
No one is saying change should not happen but this was not only cutting edge design (something many designers tend to prevent average users from having by default) but it was failed cutting edge design both because it didn't have MATE built in as a counter measure and because it's just not that good.
Again to quote the link:
The worst part about the destruction of customization options in the name of “ease of use” is that it seems to have backfired horribly. Gnome 3 is not easy to use. For the developers who created it, maybe, for all of us normal people, no. It’s a lose-lose situation.
Three clicks to get to an application? Then when you complain, some Gnome 3 fanboy tells you it’s actually easier, since you can just type the name of the application? Brilliant! If I wanted to type the names of my applications, I would be using the freaking command line.
I don't know if I can get to you however. You're intermixing hobby with the rebuttal of new vs. old. Neither is really connected and I didn't merge them.
Note that any working thing can be stopped from being a hobby by a boss, a design philosophy, beta testing, controlled migration, etc. etc.
As far as the new vs. the old. Gnome 3 did not just try to be new. It was bad. It was bad because it didn't wait for Mate to mature before being Gnome 3 and it's bad because no one simply said "it sucks". Of course it doesn't cut it if the words "it sucks" were said with no other explanation or justification. No one did though so why reply to this straw man instead of the actual implication?
It's just as bad as your inability to grasp the difference with desiring for a familiar interface because you don't want the new interface vs. the desiring for a previous generation old interface because it's both familiar and better than the new interface which was shoddy implementation of a so called interface being adopted to the change of the decade as if that justifies forced change especially within the context of it's initial release.
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As you said, MATE broke the mentality of a WM ported for the better. Therefore it's not your traditional WM. It was a port to bring back a one generation change because of the forced change that occurred.
Exactly.
No one is saying change should not happen but this was not only cutting edge design (something many designers tend to prevent average users from having by default) but it was failed cutting edge design both because it didn't have MATE built in as a counter measure and because it's just not that good.
If you don't give new interface the amount of time it needs to make things more productive, you'll never find out how usable they are. I am spending time with Unity (which is built over gnome 3 shell) and I find it more productive over the menu interface of gnome or KDE. It is all about adopting if it's more productive. HUD (headsup display) on unity is quite useful and more productive compared to old menu based interface. I can see how much they are usesful on tablets if gnome or ubuntu based tablets ever make it to the market. That's all i can say about forced change vs not wanting to change thinking.
You're intermixing hobby with the rebuttal of new vs. old. Neither is really connected and I didn't merge them.
Not exactly. If we go by OP's definition. Hobby is something that is not working as per his perception of how things should work as he was taught at first place(being familiar and all). Going by that definition when windows user tries MAC it becomes hobby. For windows user, linux is hobby because they're too lazy to understand how things are different than their walled garden windows.
For me crappy innovation like Ribbon interface and Metro interface are part of hobby. I can explain why they are less of innovation and more of hobby but we derailed a lot already here.
Gnome 3 did not just try to be new. It was bad.
I have to disagree. If you're into doing quick tasks, gnome 3 is way superior and can get tasks done way quicker than MATE and gnome 2. It requires more usage than just mere reaction over look and feel.
It was bad because it didn't wait for Mate to mature before being Gnome 3 and it's bad because no one simply said "it sucks".
What gnome 3 has to do with MATE being mature or not? Gnome 3 was released months before the release of MATE. In fact MATE was born because gnome foundation ditched the traditional desktop interface in version 2.
Of course it doesn't cut it if the words "it sucks" were said with no other explanation or justification. No one did though so why reply to this straw man instead of the actual implication?
Simple because many people who gave that reaction failed to use that interface and presented no measured results.
It's just as bad as your inability to grasp the difference with desiring for a familiar interface because you don't want the new interface vs. the desiring for a previous generation old interface because it's both familiar and better than the new interface
I don't think it's my inability to grasp things here where I corrected you MATE was born out of gnome 3s change of direction. It shows your inability to understand things here that old interface is soon going to be deprecated by WMs because of the touch interface hype. I never said I don't want the new interface in fact I have changed on that over time, I don't know what gave you that impression. As for previous generation of interface being familiar, MATE is going to change on that too. Are you going to still hold the same argument against them without keeping track of changes? Linux is all about changes, I learned that hard way. You can not quote old things on linux (or it's apps, wm's) and hold strong opinion on their current changes. Linux is very dynamic on WM/DE changes front these days.
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Stating quick tasks does not equal measured results either FYI especially when it comes to productivity.
Stating Linux is very dynamic on WM/DE changes front these days is also not much of a statement. Dynamic compared to what? Even in pre-Gnome 3 days there were many WMs/DEs unique to Linux especially when you factor in other micro-apps that change how windows are managed but are not full shells.
Mate is related to Gnome 3 because Mate was a reaction to Gnome 3. You know it's bad design when someone needs to recreate an old interface. Not only that but you can't hide behind the amount of time it needs since you didn't specify such an amount and you're railing on people not providing any measured result. These two are contrary.
This is how Mate relates to Gnome 3. If Gnome 3 waited for MATE's maturity then there would have been less complaints. Instead it was force change. A change that wasn't just forced upon Linux newbies but forced upon long time Gnome users.
It is also disingenuous to both call the OP's words drivel and then to rely on his drivel to redefine the meaning of hobby according to him. Drivel means you can reinvent what he really meant when he said of hobby to support your own bias on what drivel really means. It also goes counter to you ignoring his drivel. Again this is a strawman rebuttal. You omit crucial words such as "Ifs", you would rather side with what you consider drivel than what the common lay person understands as hobby or even what that article defines as unprofessional forced change, you are merely supplanting your own bias instead of debunking anything.
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Stating quick tasks does not equal measured results either FYI especially when it comes to productivity.
You have to actually open to up measured results in order to understand what they are. If you have never used HUD or Gnome 3 equal to the time you used traditional interface, argument is moot. Productivity regarding tasks is measured against time. HUD performs faster compared to menu interface on that.
Stating Linux is very dynamic on WM/DE changes front these days is also not much of a statement.
Sure it is not for you because you're not even keeping up with the changes in the WM and you are not even sure how those DE's are changed or from where they are forked and for what purpose.
Dynamic compared to what?
Dynamic compared to their own previous versions or even you can say windows versions. You can't beat linux WM's like dead horse by comparing gnome 2 version with windows 7 or 8, when you are not even aware that there are faster and more productive and responsive UI's coming out. If you're holding onto linux with your presumptions and going to be negative about it, then that is purely out of your perspective, that is not WM's fault.
Even in pre-Gnome 3 days there were many WMs/DEs unique to Linux especially when you factor in other micro-apps that change how windows are managed but are not full shells.
How many of them were more productive and eye candy or say polished at the same time? There was nothing unique in them when they were just mimicking the traditional desktop features that you can find on any other desktop. Problem with linux haters is that they're open to apple or windows innovation in UI or some design crap but if open source community does any innovation there is criticism for the sake of it, atleast criticism out of no strong points.
Mate is related to Gnome 3 because Mate was a reaction to Gnome 3. You know it's bad design when someone needs to recreate an old interface. Not only that but you can't hide behind the amount of time it needs since you didn't specify such an amount and you're railing on people not providing any measured result. These two are contrary.
Sure it was reaction to new interface. But in order to call it bad you have to use it for equally long time like the old interface. Initial reaction was purely based on the look and feel and uncomfortable feel that people got while navigating the desktop. Nobody focused on productivity to get things done. On productivity scale it is far more superior. Have you even used gnome 3 for searching files, programs and to manage multiple workspace? I underestimated all this earlier with same arguments against gnome 3 and after using it I realized it was meant to save a lot of my time. Sure it resembles apple's design, but it is working. Your asssume that MATE retains the superiority of old interface with that fork,in reality MATE is just a refuge desktop that many people have as of now. Same goes for cinnamon. It is about time that linux like any other desktop going to make changes to the traditional interface, there is nothing wrong with that. It is natural for people who are into UI based desktop to get shocked to see major changes in their desktop. There is going to be another shock when tablets will be more cheaper and we'll be using new touch responsive UI in next year or so.
This is how Mate relates to Gnome 3. If Gnome 3 waited for MATE's maturity then there would have been less complaints. Instead it was force change. A change that wasn't just forced upon Linux newbies but forced upon long time Gnome users.
Again same thing. Is it hard for you to get the hard fact that MATE was born after Gnome3? :huh: If you check the thread which i posted earlier you'll realize that MATE's maturity has nothing to do with gnome3. It's like saying baby shouldn't have been born before it gets mature in womb. Here is something for easy. Gnome 3 first and MATE second and also one important point, MATE is based on OLD gnome 2 code which used GTK 2+ which is now going to be deprecated. MATE was born because gnome-classic session is going to be ignored when gnome 4 comes for new hardware and 3d acceleration. It is not forced at all. Gnome-panel or gnome classic session was always there for people who wanted to use the old gnome interface. It was not forced at all. You're talking about linux here, open source community always cares for people, because it is for people software, not profit. LIke donationcoders, they are running totally on worldwide donations and there are people working from around the world for gnome.
It is also disingenuous to both call the OP's words drivel and then to rely on his drivel to redefine the meaning of hobby according to him. Drivel means you can reinvent what he really meant when he said of hobby to support your own bias on what drivel really means.
Not exactly, it is drivel. Google "confirmation bias" to validate whether it was my bias to call it drivel or it was drivel again linux to begin with. If you carefully read his post until he decided to approach linux with open mind. I am not here to defend linux or open source. I was in thread to see if he wants the solution to his problem then we got derailed to what we are posting right now.
you would rather side with what you consider drivel than what the common lay person understands as hobby or even what that article defines as unprofessional forced change, you are merely supplanting your own bias instead of debunking anything.
If you're talking about your ignorance for gnome-classic session which shows gnome 3 was not forced change, then I have posted about that in my previous point. I have nothing to debunk. It is something you want to make up from this discussion.
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No the arguments can't be moot because,
1) productivity is not just based on speed (i.e. time management)
2) speed is also based on the user's knowledge and skills with utilizing certain aspects of a feature (say mouse clicks vs. hotkeys)
3) You were the one who lumped the other side as all not using measured results so you raised the issue. By calling it a moot argument, you would be calling your own original statement a moot argument.
4) Blind tests are more important than being opened to measured results. In fact, while opening up is important to users less willing to experiment, it is also deadly for more intelligent users who might be biased towards a positive result.
5) A small increase in productivity can't make up for the longer time to adopt a new piece of interface and Linux by default is plagued with other areas that are just as time consuming besides the DE/WM.
Mind you you're wrong. It doesn't require any advanced user to keep up with developments to know how dynamic Linux WMs can be. You're showing your faulty prejudices here.
You can't even figure out something as basic as I think Linux WMs are dynamic so just because I raised the issue of Gnome 3 you immediately assumed:
Sure it is not for you because you're not even keeping up with the changes in the WM and you are not even sure how those DE's are changed or from where they are forked and for what purpose.-mahesh2k
...when caught on this you went back on your statement and rephrased the question into:
How many of them were more productive and eye candy or say polished at the same time? There was nothing unique in them when they were just mimicking the traditional desktop features that you can find on any other desktop. Problem with linux haters is that they're open to apple or windows innovation in UI or some design crap but if open source community does any innovation there is criticism for the sake of it, atleast criticism out of no strong points.-mashesh2k
Problem with people with prejudices is that they jump to conclusions.
1) Desktop features can still mean many things depending on how the usability goes. It's not traditional vs. new but you're trying to lump those to paint a straw man where you can then argue against "criticism out of no strong points".
2) Many Windows user do use things like BB4Win.
3) If Gnome 3 was polished, there wouldn't have been as much complaints.
4) You talk all these good game but really the only example you have stated so far is Gnome 3 and the only thing you have hidden behind so far is Gnome 2. I don't deny that you may be more knowledgeable and aggressive at keeping up with news of development but it's like a mainstream fan talking about mainstream stuff and then railing all about polish and then flip flopping and talking about productivity all without defining much of them and when asked for proof after raising their measured data argument, then goes back on their statement and just say the argument is moot and you have to be open to the argument at the same time.
Sorry. Your vague line is contradictory. You can't say you follow developments only to say it's all about productivity only to then say it has to be polished only to then say some other things when the context was whether Linux simply has dynamic WMs/DEs. You're making new criterias as you're caught when you know my original statement is true so long as you don't make statements as as you go along:
Even in pre-Gnome 3 days there were many WMs/DEs unique to Linux especially when you factor in other micro-apps that change how windows are managed but are not full shells.
Some proof:
http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=107488
http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=101604
As small as these were, these were generally what got people excited about windows management in general and you didn't have to be a techie or a Linux user or even a constant development news stalker to grasp your mind around that these were fresher concepts that didn't need to hide behind what's new or old or mainstream.
The fact is you've already listed the facts:
MATE came after Gnome 3 because G3 is bad/was not polished. If you want to soften it up then fine: Gnome 3 is mediocre/above average/average.
MATE came after Gnome 3 because people wanted Gnome 2 but there was no way to go back to Gnome 2 on Gnome 3.
Hence from the beginning it was bad. Again, two words forced change. You want to make it semantic with things like settings, fine: forced default change.
It doesn't matter what new things you keep bringing up. You were the one who first replied to me, I clarified what my post meant based on your initial statements, and I simply replied based on the information you wrote at the time.
Not only that, some of the new issues you bring up are pretty sketchy. MATE never retained gnome 2 completely. That was one of the arguments why people constantly railed on Gnome 3. They said MATE is not just doing it for them.
...then some of the things you insert are flat out malicious. Secretly injecting the word superiority so that you can argue that Gnome 3 is superior for example:
Your asssume that MATE retains the superiority of old interface with that fork
I'm not saying you're intentionally planning it out but come on! Show a little sincerity here will you?
Is it really that hard for you to get the hard fact that Gnome 2 came before Gnome 3 and MATE only gained in popularity after because Gnome 3 wasn't doing it for certain people?
Is it so hard to understand that MATE's maturity is linked to the maturity of Gnome 3 because MATE's maturity is linked to getting back the maturity of Gnome 2?
Some of the new stuff you're bringing up are just so weird. You realize how close you sound like a cult member when you say things like:
open source community always cares for people
It's all over the place. Again, I probably won't get you because you're accusing me of making shit up and by showing you where you're making shit up it's probably coming off like now I'm the one accusing you back but you have to see some of the obvious faulty jumps to logic you're making up.
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LinuxLiveUSB has been a precious aid in getting LinuxMint 13 Cinnamon to work on a ol' Dell .32bit with Vista on it.
This program called "Lili" slightly modifies the .iso file to make it work on .32 bit system.
http://linuxliveusb.com/
Slowly getting more and more acquainted with Linux, i'm really liking it! :-*
It's so much faster than Vista (understatement) and even better than Windows7!
A bit quirky at times but quick reboot makes up for that disadvantage.
Now, if i could only get a driver for the CanoScan Lide70 ...
Apparently if you get a driver close to that one, you can get it to work.
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Late to the show here. First, the most popular Linux distro (distribution) has been "Ubuntu" (Ubuntu is actually Debian-based). Linux Mint (and a few others are actually Ubuntu-based). Kubuntu is an Ubuntu derivative that uses the KDE Desktop Environment rather than Gnome. Ubuntu Ver. 10.10 was the last version to use Gnome 2. It switched to the Unity Desktop in 11.04 (which, from what I understand, Windows 8 Metro mimics to an extent - not sure how much, since I could never get any of the three Win. 8 Previews to install in VirtualBox, in spite of sufficient memory and HD space on a new Win. 7 AMD64 machine). Other Distros have moved to Gnome 3. The one thing I liked about Ubuntu (and some of its derivatives) was the ability to install inside a Windows directory (called a Wubi install) and avoid dual booting which can cause problems on occasion as the Windows loaders and Grub (Linux loader) do not play nicely with each other. The Ubuntu CD cotains an "exe" file, named "wubi". It actaully installs Ubuntu in a Windows directory, like installing any other Windows app. I have an older XP laptop with this setup and Ubuntu runs just fine (I do defrag occasionally). With Win. 7 and a heftier system, I installed VirtualBox on my Win. 7 machine and have 4 different Linux distros installed in VMs. I can run Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome faster in a VM Linux distro than they actually run native on Win. 7. Performance of other Linux apps seem to be just fine.
The one thing I didn't like with Unity, was Unity Dash (Metro-like) and when you had a file manager display (like a directory display) it moved the Winows "Min./Max./Close" icons to the left side (similar to Apple) there is a config file that can be modified to set them back to the right side. I did notice in Ubuntu 12.04, that Ubuntu Tweak (like Windows Tweak utilities), you could set it back to the right side (where God intended). Another thiing, you can install multiple desktop environments in Linux. The site http://www.renewablepcs.com/about-linux/kde-gnome-or-xfce/ is a nice starting point on the more popular desktops. When you get the Log-on screen after boot-up, the top-right corner of the log-on box has an icon, click on it and choose the desktop - assuming it is installed). You have a number of GUI ways to install desktops and other apps on Ubuntu. The first way is using the Synaptic Package Manager (SPM). You can see all available apps (or apps in a specific category). Check a box and click "Apply" and let it install. Another way is via the Ubuntu Software Center. Although the format is somewhat different than the SPM, you select an app and click on install. While the install is taking place, you can click on another app and it will be stacked for install. You can also select "Software Sources", which opens up access to S/W apps not in the Ubuntu repository. You can also download Linux Debian-based apps (.deb) and use GDebi as the GUI to install. Also, Redhat (Fedora) apps (.rpm) can be downladed and converted (Alien) and installed. While I suspect some may not run smoothly, those that I have tried did not have any problems).
I preferred the Gnome 2 desktop, but under Unity, I installed the XFCE desktop as it is close to Gnome 2 (as is Classic Gnome). The thing I used heavily in Gnome 2 were the 2 panels (task-bars), top and bottom. Gnome 2 also allowed me to easily moved the icons on the panels to where I wanted them. There is also another Ubuntu based distro called Zorin_OS. The lastest is Release 6 (Core). What makes it interesting is you can select one of 3 desktop/menu environments - Gnome 2, Windows XP or Windows 7. There is a paid version which, I believe, also allows for an Apple desktop. The core underneath is still Linux, of course, but it does give that familiar look and feel. Zorin_OS installs with its own browser, but you can select from the menu (Applications -> Internet -> Zorin Browser Manager) Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome or Midori (in Zorin_OS 6 - Zorin_OS 5.2 Core, it was under Applications -> System Tools -> ZBM). Those who are interested in trying it out, can download it from the Zorin site http://zorin-os.com/free.html . I don't know if Zorin OS 5.2 can be found anymore - Gnome 2 and Zorin_OS 5.2 had on the top left corner, the menu items "Applications Places and System" - in Zorin_OS 6, they moved part of the "System" under "Applications -> System Tools" - probably due to the underlaying changes made in Ubuntu 12.04 (as 5.2 was based on Ubuntu 11.04). The download is 1.3GB (32bit) or 1.4GB (64bit). There are 4 sites, I recommend the NLUUG site as the fastest. Softpredia also offers the downloads - I presume from their site and not a redirection to the Zorin site.
BTW, someone posted a comment their was no equivalent to the Windows Task Manager, there is - it is the "System Monitor", found under "Administration". I have its icon installed on my top panel so I have ready access in case an app ever gets hung up.
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BTW, someone posted a comment their was no equivalent to the Windows Task Manager, there is - it is the "System Monitor", found under "Administration".
-bobc4012
Depending on your desktop environment.
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Speaking of Zorin...
Have just tried 6 and these are my initial observations:
Pros:
-Installation process took a little over 15 min.
-Installation of initial major updates didn't stop me from using the browser (or other apps).
-Gives the impression of being lightweight.
Cons:
-The name Zorin sounds like some kind of medication.
-The Z logo is un-aesthetic.
-Google Chrome is proposed as default.
-Opera couldn't be found in the Software Manager.
Otherwise, i think i prefer it over Ubuntu for sure!
Will keep on tinkering with it to see how Firefox and Opera behave.
Chrome is doing pretty good (considering i only have 1G of RAM to play with).
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BTW, someone posted a comment their was no equivalent to the Windows Task Manager, there is - it is the "System Monitor", found under "Administration".
-bobc4012
After reading this, some questions popped into my mind. I did a post here on DC asking for more details on the inner workings of ctrl-alt-del in Windows and other OSs: https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=31575.0
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@dantheman - you should be ok with 1GB. I'm running Mint on an old 2Ghz Core2-Duo laptop with 1 GB of RAM and 1 GB swap space and everything works just fine. :)
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So much for my experiment with Zorin!
For some reason, (just like Ubuntu too!) :P , my monitor dims (during more intensive work like installing updates) and comes back.
So, LMDE is back on and doing just fine.
No fading in and out monitors here (did it on laptop and desktop).
It's funny that LinuxMint is promoting Yahoo (their supporter) search via their pre-installed version of Firefox but they still have Google on their startpage.
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For some reason, (just like Ubuntu too!) :P , my monitor dims (during more intensive work like installing updates) and comes back.
-dantheman
Check your power management settings and see if the "Dim when idle" monitor option is selected. If it is, turn it off. I never use it because it's flaky with some graphic adapters and the power savings it provides are minuscule for most people. I just set my screensaver to black out the monitor after 15 minutes and call it a day.
8)
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I've got LMDE on for now but will double check it 40hz!
Don't think it's the issue for it only happens on Ubuntu and it dims for a moment and comes back in a moment by itself (without doing anything on my part).
One issue with LMDE; i couldn't install Opera stable via Software Manager.
Got it from their site though.
Otherwise, LMDE is pretty quick (spiffy i would say!) :Thmbsup:
For a non-geek like myself, it was a challenge to install it though (partitions etc.)
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/me ropes the wayward calf and attempts to bring it back to topic...
Glad to see you're doing what Linux users the world over are discovering every day... Using what works for you.
But back to the question: in all that, did you feel like you were tinkering with an amusing hobby? Or were you performing vital troubleshooting procedures in order to produce a usable workstation which would serve your computing needs for the foreseeable future?
That, I think is one of the dividing lines that must be crossed in order to differentiate between one or the other. Seems so logical to say that Windows or Mac isn't a hobby, because they are production-ready systems that so many people actually do work on, for, and with. Linux has classically been the domain of the tinkerer, power user, or the merely intellectually curious; yet, it has stood the test of production systems for years now. Even now, a sizable chunk of the internet is powered by Linux or BSD (the "other" hobby OS), and I am constantly absolutely boggled by the fact that people have absolutely no clue that their most trusted communication link (cell phone) could possibly be running on a hobby OS (android).
Like I said in my first response, it is what you make it.
I've used Linux in some incarnation for ~10 years now as my main, and now only OS, and it's as vital to me as any Windows or Mac would be to anyone else. Granted, when my Linux breaks and I can't fix it, I go to the "community" instead of to the "experts", but really that's the biggest difference anymore.
8 more cents, and you'd have a dollar...
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Yep, that's what I'm going to, Linux with Ubuntu and a dual boot with XP. I'll be using Linux as the master boot....
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@Edvard,
Now we're getting into the deep end! :o
To be honest with you, Linux for me is like playing 3D chess.
I can play some chess (Windows) but 3D just doesn't make it in my head.
So, i'm trying to get more and more familiar with it by installing it and breaking it so that i can fix it.
I happen to "work" for a non-profit association and the folks know little about computers (let alone Linux!).
They get viruses and bring their computers to the shop @ $100 bucks a shot etc.
Their laptops have hard drive crashes, computers need replacement.
Those are big bucks for non-profits! :tellme:
There are a zillion computers available on eBay that could be transformed with Linux and behave even better than Windows7 or 8.
I need to prepare the proposition by being more knowledgeable with Linux but especially so that they don't get lost in Linux.
Also, i'm fed up with the fact that Microsoft keeps on pushing us to new versions (which are often regressions) with a price tag that... well, you know the story.
Conclusion?
Well, Linux for me is a hobby still in the sense of not really taking the plunge (like yourself).
Why? Well, i have this CanoScan Lide70 that Linux still can't handle.
What do i do if i propose Linux to others and their scanners or whatever other application can't be connected?
Tell them to buy another scanner to have a free Linux system?
You don't leave a good first impression in those conditions now do you?
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Speaking of Zorin...
Cons:
-Opera couldn't be found in the Software Manager.
-dantheman
I had mentioned in my post that Opera can be installed via the Zorin Browser Manager. There is a slight difference in the way you get to going from Zorin_OS 5.2 to Zorin_OS 6. In 5.2, you selected from the menu "Applications -> System Tools -> Zorin Internet Browser Manager" -> Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome or Midori. In 6, it is under "Applications -> Internet -> Zorin Web Browser Manager". Once installed, going through the same menu sequence, you can uninstall the browsers (under each icon, you will see "Install" or "Uninstall") - similar to the install/uninstall concept used in the "Software Center".
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My apologies bobc4012! :-[
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Why do people want to use Linux like they use Windows? What is the case with all these graphical installers?
Maybe you would best go with openSUSE or PC-BSD and their one click installers. :D
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Tuxman! You live well your leitmotiv! :P
Must be the childhood memory of the first bicycle with learning wheels attached that makes its come back agin huh!
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Don't you feel silly still having learning wheels attached to your car?
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Is that like those who can't take their phones off their ears when they drive? :D
BTW, if BobC4012 is still around, maybe he can tell me how to replace the Chrome icon from the panel with another like... Opera! yes! :Thmbsup:
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My apologies bobc4012! :-[
-dantheman
"Fuhgedabotit" - none needed. I probably could have written the post a bit more clearly.
BTW, I'm not sure what distros you are tinkering with, but in Zorin 5.2, there is a utility called Ubuntu Tweak. This worked like the "old Ubuntu Tweak" and had a lot more options for tweaking, like those Windows Tweak utilities. In the System category, you could set the power options (ala lap-top power options - AC, never dim or power save - Battery - power dim, etc.). I was looking at Zorin 6 and they have the new "Ubuntu Tweak" that ships with Unity (or the Software Center). It has fewer options, which ticks me off'.
I should note that Zorin still has a few glitches. One thing about release 6, however, is you can change the Desktop Environment without logging off and back on. Select one of the three (Gnome, XP or Win. 7) and it changes it immediately.
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BTW, if BobC4012 is still around, maybe he can tell me how to replace the Chrome icon from the panel with another like... Opera! yes! :Thmbsup:
-dantheman
Hey Dan, if you want an Opera Icon, check the following directories.
/ usr/share/opera/styles/images or
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps
A little exploration in the icons directory and its sub-directories may be of value.
Regards.
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BTW, if BobC4012 is still around, maybe he can tell me how to replace the Chrome icon from the panel with another like... Opera! yes! :Thmbsup:
-dantheman
Hey Dan, if you want an Opera Icon, check the following directories.
/ usr/share/opera/styles/images or
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/256x256/apps
A little exploration in the icons directory and its sub-directories may be of value.
Regards.
-bobc4012
I should have added, similar to Windows, right click on the item, select "Properties" and then click on the icon in the "window". On Ubuntu or Zorin (or other Linux), it will bring up a menu. Under "Places" (on the left), select "File System" and then you will see from "bin" to "var". Click on "usr", "share", etc. When you see the icon you want, then click (double-click?) on it and it will replace the existing icon.
Good luck.
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Thank you bobc4012!
I'm going to be away this weekend but as i get back,
i'll follow up on those good tips.
Getting used to where program and data files are is one of the hardest things for a Windows user.
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You are welcome Dan.
Glad to have been of help this time. Sometimes I know enough to be dangerous. I took a Unix certification course at the local CC about 20 years ago and file structure-wise not much has changed. Linux follows the Unix pattern. I find books like "Linux Unleashed" quite good (but can be expensive - I go to used bookstores and pick up an occasional book for $5 or $10 - may not be the latest, but sufficient for getting a clue as to what is going on). BTW, the certification course never did me any good job-wise, even though I had tons of programming experience.
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@Edvard,
Now we're getting into the deep end! :o-dantheman
Yep, and it goes as deep as you're willing to swim...
To be honest with you, Linux for me is like playing 3D chess.
I can play some chess (Windows) but 3D just doesn't make it in my head.
So, i'm trying to get more and more familiar with it by installing it and breaking it so that i can fix it.
One of the best ways to learn it, IMO, but now that it's my only OS, I'm a little more interested in keeping it UN-broke ;)
I happen to "work" for a non-profit association and the folks know little about computers (let alone Linux!).
They get viruses and bring their computers to the shop @ $100 bucks a shot etc.
Their laptops have hard drive crashes, computers need replacement.
Those are big bucks for non-profits! :tellme:
I know, right? Seems Linux would be a great fit for a non-profit, but due to the fact that it's uncharted territory for even junior admins, it's just not doable for many of them. That, and a dependence on Windows-only software for administration and operations (an even larger consideration), and you have quite the hurdle to overcome. Understandable in a practical sense, but I still get the voice inside that says "It could be so different..."
http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/opensource/why-linux-is-a-perfect-fit-for-charities-and-non-profits/2209
http://www.phillipadsmith.com/2004/12/what-not-for-profit-organizations-need-to-know-about-free-software.html
http://textbookrevolution.org/files/pitp.pdf
There are a zillion computers available on eBay that could be transformed with Linux and behave even better than Windows7 or 8.
I need to prepare the proposition by being more knowledgeable with Linux but especially so that they don't get lost in Linux.
An admirable effort. Just don't get too flustered when someone inevitably starts yelling and pointing fingers because "on Windows, this was easy". They often turn out to be right. Your job will be to make it just as easy, granted that it's even possible.
Also, i'm fed up with the fact that Microsoft keeps on pushing us to new versions (which are often regressions) with a price tag that... well, you know the story.
Yes, that's one of the single largest complaints that can be levelled their way, but really, it's all in a business day in tech land. The hardware keeps getting better and better so you build larger and more complex software that takes advantage of the new goodies to be played with, all while still trying to maintain legacy support, driver compliance, shareholder value, yada yada yada, and suddenly people are calling you "bloated" and "greedy".
Jeez, can't win for losing...
Don't think Linux is immune, either. Compare the latest 3.something Linux kernel with the first iterations of 2.6.x and you'll see that the code and driver base has gotten a little thick.
The good side to that story is that it's all so customizable that you can slim down the fattest kernel and get it to run on almost anything. Windows, of course, not so much, but things like making sure the latest version is going to run on the kinds of machines non-profits can afford does nothing for their bottom line, and so it goes...
Conclusion?
Well, Linux for me is a hobby still in the sense of not really taking the plunge (like yourself).
Why? Well, i have this CanoScan Lide70 that Linux still can't handle.
What do i do if i propose Linux to others and their scanners or whatever other application can't be connected?
Tell them to buy another scanner to have a free Linux system?
You don't leave a good first impression in those conditions now do you?
Of course not. But you can have the same problems on Windows. That ancient lazer printer that works like a draft horse, and only goes down when the lights go out in a thunderstorm, but the drivers haven't been updated since Windows '98, and the shop just got offered a sweet bulk deal on Win 7 licenses?
Yeah, good luck explaining that one, too.
One trick I've used is to explain that the money saved on licensing can be put toward new hardware; like a sleek new wifi-connected printer that's running some form of Linux under the hood anyway (http://hackaday.com/2012/06/09/free-linux-computer-from-a-printers-wifi-card/).
I prefer to think that it's hardware manufacturers that can't handle Linux, rather than that Linux can't handle the hardware. After all, many folks have asked Canon for decent Linux support and they refuse to even allow others to do the job (http://www.endolith.com/wordpress/2008/09/09/canon-refuses-to-support-linux/), much less do it themselves.
The first alternative that comes to mind would be to set up a Windows box as a print/scan server, and enable Internet Printing Protocol for printers, or Scan to FTP for scanners, but that's not for everybody...
As Joyce(?) once said, "ya pays yer money, and ya takes yer cherce"
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I prefer to think that it's hardware manufacturers that can't handle Linux, rather than that Linux can't handle the hardware. After all, many folks have asked Canon for decent Linux support and they refuse to even allow others to do the job (http://www.endolith.com/wordpress/2008/09/09/canon-refuses-to-support-linux/), much less do it themselves.
-Edvard
It tends to be that H/W vendors don't want to put any support into Linux, because they feel there are insufficient users and no money in it for them. As far publishing I/Fs so the Open source people can write their own drivers, they are hesitant to do so because it may expose some of their "proprietary" implementation. Broadcom is another example, but when people who were using Linux shied away from H/W using Broadcom cards, it started to affect their bottom line (even, if a little bit). After all, a lot of Linux users still use Windows too and dual boot or use a VM. I read recently, that Broadcom is changing its position now.
A lot of ordinary people who were comfortable with XP commplained a lot about Visa and, even Windows 7. Wait until they have to buy a new box and get Windows 8. It will be like they just woke up on a planet in the Andromeda system. BTW, the same thing happened with Ubuntu when they moved to Unity in 11.04 (rumors are Windows 8 copied some of the good ideas from Unity). The GUI in Ubuntu up until 11.04 was not much different than Windows XP. You populated the screens with icons (Firefox, text editor, OpenOffice oor LibreOffice, etc.) and then it became point and click. You could surf the internet, do e-mail, IM, etc. Granted, the underlying support was different, but once set up (which, if you learned a few simple things about Ubuntu) was as easy (or even easier than) as doing it in Windows. I have played with Ubuntu 12.04 and am not thrilled with the Unity I/F for populating my desktop (or generating panels - like Window's task bar). I haven't tried the same thing with Windows 8 Metro, primarily because I could not get any of the three "preview" versions to install (on a Win. 7 machine with ample memory and HD space (1TB)). When I get sufficient time, I'll give them another shot - maybe I'll get lucky.
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Jumped the Ubuntu ship before the Unity. Never looked back. I was using Xubuntu anyways, so I don't know if I would have noticed a difference.
I hear Unity works good in a pad computer environment, much like how Windows 8 was obviously designed for pad devices as well.
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Went over to Mint and Crashbang a while back since I didn't like the noises Canonical was making about Unity even before they went all in on it.
I still prefer Xfce over any other desktop for day to day Linux use.
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Edvard,
I'm back! But times are busy (can't say they never were!).
You've given so much food for thought, i don't know where to begin!
Will have to come over and re-read alot of things here.
My previous comment was short on one final "hic" that's been lingering on...
What happens if Linux gets some major virus?
A friend of mine said that it's probably going to happen one day.
Will Linux crew have the resources to fight it off?
Aren't we going to end up in dog chase tail scenario like Windows (and now Mac)?
Before we go any further, can i ask who that Joyce is or was? :huh:
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My previous comment was short on one final "hic" that's been lingering on...
What happens if Linux gets some major virus?
A friend of mine said that it's probably going to happen one day.
Will Linux crew have the resources to fight it off?
Aren't we going to end up in dog chase tail scenario like Windows (and now Mac)?
Before we go any further, can i ask who that Joyce is or was? :huh:
-dantheman
The Linux/BSD/Gnu crowd is more than up for whatever gets thrown at them. If malware becomes an issue, it will be speedily dealt with - as the Morris Internet worm shutdown so neatly demonstrated. And that response was initiated and accomplished with virtually zero input or assistance from the government.
Many in the F/OSS camp are also considered top talent in the IT world. This isn't amateur hour or a social club. This is a serious crowd doing serious systems programming. If viruses become an issue, they'll be dealt with. And in a completely open manner.
Try getting that anyplace else. :)
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For me, mainstream Linux use hinges on one factor:
being able to install third party software on any (or most) distros without much noodling or programmer-skills necessary. like Windows or something as easy.
Most people will argue, however, that that is fundamentally opposed to the Linux way of life. i don't agree. I think if people really wanted to, it can be done. But I get the sense that the Linux crowd intentionally prefers things to be more complicated, even if it doesn't have to be. This will all happen naturally when the time comes, most likely. PC users will never become apple users, except for the most light-users. So the only alternative to hardcore windows users is Linux. And if Windows continues to piss people off, they'll see more converts to linux. And as the linux community grows, then this whole fragmentation issue will start getting resolved.
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+1 what 40Hz said
Before we go any further, can i ask who that Joyce is or was?
-dantheman
James Joyce, but that quote may or may not be his; the last word in that quote has been rendered 'chance' and 'choice' as well, and earlier than Joyce was writing, but I digress...
But I get the sense that the Linux crowd intentionally prefers things to be more complicated, even if it doesn't have to be.
-superboyac
I used to think the opposite; that it wasn't the Linux crowd making things more complicated, it was the outsiders pointing out how complex it was, and they would say that only because they simply didn't know how to run a decent compiler.
Then I saw this:
http://dwm.suckless.org/
Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it’s pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions.
Thankfully, the only group that would label itself 'small and elitist' are exactly that; small and elitist, so you can safely ignore them. :P
FTR - I use Debian; ergo the easiest package manager on the planet: Apt
... and if I want to get adventurous, there's always the "configure -> make -> make install" dance (quite the jig, I assure you...).
:Thmbsup:
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I use Debian; ergo the easiest package manager on the Planet
-Edvard
Debian uses yum? :P
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I use Debian; ergo the easiest package manager on the Planet
-Edvard
Debian uses yum? :P
-Tuxman
No, thank God and the developers :P!
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There was a time I shared your POV. Then I found the yum history command. :D
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For me, mainstream Linux use hinges on one factor:
being able to install third party software on any (or most) distros without much noodling or programmer-skills necessary. like Windows or something as easy.
Most people will argue, however, that that is fundamentally opposed to the Linux way of life. i don't agree. I think if people really wanted to, it can be done. But I get the sense that the Linux crowd intentionally prefers things to be more complicated, even if it doesn't have to be. This will all happen naturally when the time comes, most likely. PC users will never become apple users, except for the most light-users. So the only alternative to hardcore windows users is Linux. And if Windows continues to piss people off, they'll see more converts to linux. And as the linux community grows, then this whole fragmentation issue will start getting resolved.
-superboyac
Actually, in the Ubuntu (and some of the other distros), installing S/W is as easy as on Windows. There are a few ways of doing it. One way is to install via the Synaptic Package Manager - search for what type of function you want, check the box and then click on apply and it installs. Another way is via the Software Center. You can set up "Software Sources" to include "proprietary 'freeware'". A third alternative is to download a Debian package (.deb) and use GDebi to install it (GDebi is a GUI to install .deb packages). You don't get the numerous messages that you get when you install a Windows application (e.g., a typical ".exe" file), so in a sense it is easier than Windows. In Ubunti (and erlated) erlease prior to 11.04, the desktop Environment was much like Windows XP. Clicked on Menu (vs Start) and select the category and the installation method.
Now, granted, you aren't going to install Windows apps this way, just any comparable (or Linux only) apps. If you have Window apps you wish to install, you need to install WINE. It handles a significant number of Windows applications - BUT NOT ALL (you can use VirtualBox to install Windows and run Windows apps that won't run under WINE). Old DOS only apps can also be run in DOSBox or the DOS Emulator. Their is a glitch with the DOS Emulator that stops it from running after you install. I did report the problem a couple of years ago, but it has not been fixed. The Config file needs to be tweaked. I do it by going to /usr/bin and executing dosemu (or xdosemu) in the Admin ID (you set one up when you install Linux, just like you do with Windows). When you execute dosemu, you get an error message telling you how to correct the problem (usually copying the "fix" text, opening a terminal window and type sudo followed by pasting the "fix" text. You will be prompted for the admin password, the fix made and then the DOS Emulator can be invoked by clicking on the icon.
BTW, I disagree with your statement that most Linux users prefer the hard way of doing things. In the early years, there wasn't much of a choice - X WIndows was the only way to get Windows (as I recall) back in the early-to-mid 90s). It was still in the primitive stages like MS-DOS and eventually Windows 1. Windows 3.1, was the first (IMO) significant improvement to Windows. Unlike Windows, Linux has come a long way with GUI environments. You can choose from a number of them with most distros. With Windows, you are stuck with the one that is shipped. Yes, there are a few open source Windows GUI environments (e.g., Classical Explorer for Windows 7 and maybe another or two). ut you have to search for them on the internet, download them and install them. With packages like the Synaptic Package Manager or Software Center, you can just select those you want (click on the check box), click apply and let them install. Next time when you log on, you will see an icon to click on and select the desktop you want.
After a while, you may find Linux to be an enjoyable "hobby".
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@ superboyac Re: Reply #94:
"being able to install third party software on any (or most) distros without much noodling or programmer-skills necessary."
Linux Mint v12 new application install example:
Click 1) Applications, 2) Other, 3) Software manager (36,235 packages available in 12 categories). 4) Graphics (Category 614 packages in list and 6 subcategories), 5) Inkscape (description, score, reviews, homepage URL, version, size, Install/Remove), 6) Install.
Wait for install. Close Software Manager. Open Applications. Click icon/name to run.
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Linux Mint v12 new application install example:
Click 1) Applications, 2) Other, 3) Software manager (36,235 packages available in 12 categories). 4) Graphics (Category 614 packages in list and 6 subcategories), 5) Inkscape (description, score, reviews, homepage URL, version, size, Install/Remove), 6) Install.
Wait for install. Close Software Manager. Open Applications. Click icon/name to run.
-sword
aptitude install inkscape.
Newbie.
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Linux Mint v12 new application install example:
Click 1) Applications, 2) Other, 3) Software manager (36,235 packages available in 12 categories). 4) Graphics (Category 614 packages in list and 6 subcategories), 5) Inkscape (description, score, reviews, homepage URL, version, size, Install/Remove), 6) Install.
Wait for install. Close Software Manager. Open Applications. Click icon/name to run.
-sword
aptitude install inkscape.
Newbie.
-Tuxman
Hey! Be nice to the newcomers. :eusa_naughty:
Only problem is you need to know the exact name in the repository to do it via the CL.
BTW: I'd prefer sudo apt-get update followed by sudo apt-get install inkscape ;D
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Hey! Be nice to the newcomers. :eusa_naughty:
Only problem is you need to know the exact name in the repository to do it via the CL.
BTW: I'd prefer sudo apt-get update followed by sudo apt-get install inkscape ;D
-40hz
Also, anything that involves opening a console would probably qualify as "programmer-skills".
But I do disagree with superboyac: installing stuff in linux is 100 times easier than in windows.
Actually, now that I think about it, windows is the worst OS from this point of view: installing in Mac is even easier than linux: since the introduction of the app store, the app's site can have a link that opens the app's page in the app store where it's one click away from download and install.
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Hey! Be nice to the newcomers. :eusa_naughty:
-40hz
Truthfully, this is the primary reason that my Linux exploration ended so early when I did it. Whenever I tried to go beyond the obvious, if I ran into problems, it was hard to get help. People would say how great Linux is and recommend that you try it, but when you do and ask a question, you would get derided for your lack of knowledge or ignored. I know that all Linux users aren't like that... but I ran into enough of them during that time that I just shrugged and reformatted the partition as I didn't see that big of an advantage from the depth I was able to get into it unaided.
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Hey! Be nice to the newcomers. :eusa_naughty:
-40hz
Truthfully, this is the primary reason that my Linux exploration ended so early when I did it. Whenever I tried to go beyond the obvious, if I ran into problems, it was hard to get help. People would say how great Linux is and recommend that you try it, but when you do and ask a question, you would get derided for your lack of knowledge or ignored. I know that all Linux users aren't like that... but I ran into enough of them during that time that I just shrugged and reformatted the partition as I didn't see that big of an advantage from the depth I was able to get into it unaided.
-wraith808
It's cool! As long as I can rag back on all you linux nuts. Here's one: I say buttons are easier, you guys say "actually...command line is much easier". Yes, as long as you've memorized the commands. That's like a Frenchman telling an englishman that French is easier than English. no text command is easier than a button with a universal symbol on it. typing "play" is easy, true. But it's not easier than clicking the button with the triangle. It's 4 times harder, actually...you have to press the button that has a "p" on it, then "l", then "a"...etc. ;D
Honestly, I didn't actually try to install any programs, so I was making a statement based on nothing. :-[
I'll tell you exactly why my linux experiment died...drivers. The mouse driver. I couldn't find a way to make it work as nicely as it did in windows, and that was too annoying for me. It's not a big deal, but I use it every 30 seconds, and I don't like feeling a little frustrated every 30 seconds. I'll give linux a little more of a shot when i get a good chunk of time.
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People would say how great Linux is and recommend that you try it, but when you do and ask a question, you would get derided for your lack of knowledge or ignored. I know that all Linux users aren't like that... but I ran into enough of them
-wraith808
I think a lot of that has changed. At least in the USA. I haven't seen very much of that except where somebody was treating forum or irc members as their own personal unpaid support staff and getting indignant when unlimited help wasn't forthcoming. About the only time I ever got a little short with someone was when one woman introduced herself as "a consultant" who had taken on a paid project to migrate a business over to F/OSS - and stated up front she knew next to nothing about it - and could we please help her? When some of us gave her a list of websites she could look at and some books she should purchase and read first, she became indignant and abusive. Told us she "didn't have time for that" and virtually demanded we just answer her questions because "that's what Linux is supposed to be about - people helping other people for free."
Her very first question was: "How do you do a virtualization of a server?"
Where do you even begin with a person like that?
Other than that person, I haven't seen much 'newbie abuse' in the places I frequent. And what little there is usually earns the abuser a quick rebuke from several other people.
Also, anything that involves opening a console would probably qualify as "programmer-skills".
But I do disagree with superboyac: installing stuff in linux is 100 times easier than in windows.
Actually, now that I think about it, windows is the worst OS from this point of view: installing in Mac is even easier than linux: since the introduction of the app store, the app's site can have a link that opens the app's page in the app store where it's one click away from download and install.
-jgpaiva
Agree 100%. Using the console is an intermediate skill and not really required by most users unless they want to get into it.
But in addition to easy to use package managers like Synaptic, several mainstream Linux distros are now starting to offer software stores. Ubuntu and Mint now have similar software managers that take a lot from Apple's App Store. The only difference is that 99.8% of what's listed is free for download.
Short (not that great) demo of how Linux Mint does it follows:
Like the man says: It's butterscotch, baby... butterscotch! :D
A quick lite review of Mint (including Software Manager) can also be seen below if you want to see what a modern Linux distro looks and works like:
8)
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It's cool! As long as I can rag back on all you linux nuts. Here's one: I say buttons are easier, you guys say "actually...command line is much easier".
-superboyac
Rag away. :Thmbsup: But I don't think you're going to find many Linux nuts in this forum. Users maybe. But not nuts. We just like it because it works. And the day it doesn't, we'll kick it to the curb without a second thought. ;D
Regarding the command line: I like buttons and GUIs too although I'm pretty handy with the command line in windows, BSD, and Linux. For some things buttons are easier. When it is, I use the GUI. But for other operations, like copying an entire folder full of files with subdirectories to a new location, the command cp -r /<original loc>/* /<new loc> is easier (to me) than opening up a file manager, highlighting a bunch of stuff, and then dragging it to a new location. But that's me, so YMMV.
Where the command line really gains power is when you realize Linux (like Unix) basically treats everything as if it were a text file. So you can run a command, and then pipe the output to another command as input. And you can chain a series of such operations together in ways similar to Autohotkey and save them as a script which can be used over and over. It's a very flexible system that really comes into its own when dealing with multiple items or a series of operations.
But that's for later. ;) 8)
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Truthfully, I'm a little envious of the Linux users. because like you said, there is so much flexibility with the command line. You don't have to go to mouser or whatever to request every little feature!
For me it's a decision I've made to not dive into something that is not going to be a major part of my life. And Linux is not in my plans right now. I'm even avoiding learning any more nonsense career stuff at this point. I'm in a sense saving my brain for music. I only want music "memorized" if I can help it. I can deal with most other things as they come up, you know? Like Oscar Peterson said when he was asked why he didn't try his hand at other instruments..."I have a hard enough time trying to play this thing! [the piano]"
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Truthfully, I'm a little envious of the Linux users.
-superboyac
You shouldn't be IMHO. It's just a skill set. Not a gift or god-given talent.
If you're interested or you need it - you learn it. If it's not something that's important to you, it's best avoided. Only so many hours in a day - or a lifetime. Use them wisely.
P.S. Somebody did a study once and discovered something like 90% of all programmers and 80% of all "serious" computer users play at least one musical instrument. Not surprising in that rocking a PC, a guitar neck, or a piano keyboard has more overlapping brain functions than most people realize.
To me, designing a server solution is very similar to composing music. And troubleshooting a network issue is very similar to improvising a solo in the middle of a complex piece of progressive jazz.
Do anything well enough and it all starts to seem like music to me. ;D 8)
8) :Thmbsup:
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Do anything well enough and it all starts to seem like music to me. ;D 8)
-40hz
Gold!
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People would say how great Linux is and recommend that you try it, but when you do and ask a question, you would get derided for your lack of knowledge or ignored. I know that all Linux users aren't like that... but I ran into enough of them
-wraith808
I haven't seen very much of that except where somebody was treating forum or irc members as their own personal unpaid support staff and getting indignant when unlimited help wasn't forthcoming.
-40hz
Well-l-l-l ... that wasn't my experience when I tried the Ubuntu forums ... reputedly (at least by Ubuntu folk) the most gracious, newbie-friendly forums on the Internet. I received more RTFMs than I ever encountered on Tek-Tips :P. (Methinks I've mentioned before that DC is the only forum where I've never, to date, had someone imply that I had not RTFM. That was not my experience with the Linux arena.) I quit asking questions, started buying books that still didn't answer my questions, went back to MS.
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Well-l-l-l ... that wasn't my experience when I tried the Ubuntu forums ... reputedly (at least by Ubuntu folk) the most gracious, newbie-friendly forums on the Internet. I received more RTFMs than I ever encountered on Tek-Tips
-barney
@barney - Sorry to hear that. Seriously. I'm sorry to hear you went through that. :(
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Out of curiosity...could you share some of the questions that got you fool-slapped? I'm not disputing your account. But it would be interesting (to me at least) to see what sort of questions got you a snarky RTFM response. Also maybe provide a ballpark idea of the date you posted them?
:)
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Page 5 has a lot of interesting discussions. One advantage Linux has over Windows - FROM AN "EXPERT" viewpoint (where X = "unknown" and Spurt = "Drip under pressure") - all kidding aside - is you can obtain the source code and figure things out. Many centuries ago, I would have done that. With Windows, you cannot do it unless you work at Microsoft (or have someone on the inside) and then people are probably restricted as to what they can see (code-wise). Probably one reason why you might get a better answer on problems from the F/OSS community than you can from the Microsoft community. While MS Certification may be fine for getting a job and handling most common problems, sometimes it helps to look at the source code to see exactly what is going on. NOW, this is NOT an exercise for a NEWBIE, unless already an "XSPURT" programmer. Additionally, Unix has been around a good 10 + years longer than MS-DOS (since the early 70s) and even longer than the Windows versions. So when you do get help, chances are you have a better shot at getting good help.
@Barney
As far as a common complaint among newbies about the condescending attitude of certain "Linux XSPURTS", you have the same problem with Windows, maybe you are used to it and don't notice it as much anymore. I recently chided a couple of people on an XP Pro forum for their attitude when someone (not a novice either) asked for help on XP Home. A couple of the repsonders came back with the attitude "Well, you should be using XP Pro". Needless to say, after I chided one for the response, a number of others proceeded to "tear a new one" for those two. They did "humbly apologize", but the person who had the question basically told the people on the board where to go if that was the attitude.
I have been having problems with Windows 7 - buggy piece of "mierda". When I was looking for ideas, one person asked what my H/W was (after I already provided the config and that it was less than a year old). After I mentioned the brand, the reply was "well that's what you deserve for buying that piece of H/W crap". So Linux boards are not the only ones who have people with attitudes, so do Windows boards and, most likely, the Apple boards too. The world is full of "fornicating recto orifices", so it should be no surprise to find them on blogs, forums, etc. I find 3 or 4 boards that I like and stick with them. Contribute when I can and ask for help when needed.
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I have to disagree with the statement that was a direct reply to mine above.
apt-get is officially deprecated, usage of aptitude is encouraged. Also you don't have to know exact package names, modern package managers are able to suggest the right package when you type the binary name.
That said, how can Linux be a hobby when you ignore its powers? :D
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... Also, RTFM is the most helpful answer I could imagine. If everyone would RTFM more, there were no stupid questions anymore.
Answering your questions might help you in one special case, but it can not teach you the Whys and Whats.
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apt-get is officially deprecated, usage of aptitude is encouraged.
-Tuxman
Actually, aptitude was removed in the most recent versions of ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?s=9242b4dcdde7ca508fc146876f0ae694&t=1506025). I do agree with you, though: its conflict resolution is much superior to apt-get.
Also you don't have to know exact package names, modern package managers are able to suggest the right package when you type the binary name.
-Tuxman
Also, there's "apt-get search". Very useful stuff indeed.
... Also, RTFM is the most helpful answer I could imagine. If everyone would RTFM more, there were no stupid questions anymore.
-Tuxman
I don't think so. The manual was built for people who have reached a certain level of knowledge. If you can't understand what it says, search on it, switch pages, etc then it's useless. Also, the manual does not answer questions like "how can I install new software" unless you know where to look, which would require you to also know the answer to your question :P
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Actually, aptitude was removed in the most recent versions of ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?s=9242b4dcdde7ca508fc146876f0ae694&t=1506025).-jgpaiva
Hahaha, Ubuntu. Being different is their only purpose.
Debian tells us the opposite. :D
At the present time, aptitude is the recommended tool for interaction with the APT suite.
(source (http://wiki.debian.org/Apt/))
I don't think so. The manual was built for people who have reached a certain level of knowledge.-jgpaiva
Not if they start with chapter 1 which usually teaches the basics.
Also, the manual does not answer questions like "how can I install new software"-jgpaiva
It does. Search for "install software". :P
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I have to disagree with the statement that was a direct reply to mine above.
apt-get is officially deprecated, usage of aptitude is encouraged. Also you don't have to know exact package names, modern package managers are able to suggest the right package when you type the binary name.
-Tuxman
How can you disagree with someone personally preferring something for their own use? :P ;D
There's a difference between talking about something and advocating for something. :)
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Hahaha, Ubuntu. Being different is their only purpose.
-Tuxman
Ubuntu are that kind of annoying. I'd like to know the reasons behind that decision (but I'm too lazy to search :P ). The only plausible justification for me is to avoid invalidating the hundreds of tutorials out there that use apt-get. However, even that sounds like a non-problem, it'd be a matter of warning the user that they should use aptitude instead, when she tries to use apt-get. (or just tell them to RTFM and lose more users to mac?)
Not if they start with chapter 1 which usually teaches the basics.-Tuxman
To be honest, I'm a CS phd student, I've used linux for 5 years and I have no idea what you're talking about :) Is that "man man"? Are the users supposed to figure that out when someone replies "RTFM"? Also, typing "man" in the console gets the very useful message "What manual page do you want?", and "man 1" (for page 1? ;) ) gets "No manual entry for 1 (Alternatively, what manual page do you want from section 1?)" and "man 1 1" (for section 1, page 1? ;) ) gets "No manual entry for 1 in section 1".
Also, the manual does not answer questions like "how can I install new software"-jgpaiva
It does. Search for "install software". :P
-Tuxman
Yeah, I really like its awesome question-answering algorithms to figure out answers to newbie questions. I'm sure newbies love it too.
Maybe I'm biased, but there's no way you're ever going to convince me that RTFM is a helpful reply to someone who has never used linux or a console at all, so maybe it's best that we do not pursue this issue anymore.
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Manual, not only manpages, pal.
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How can you disagree with someone personally preferring something for their own use? :P ;D-40hz
By using words.
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How can you disagree with someone personally preferring something for their own use? :P ;D-40hz
By using words.
-Tuxman
By using words that make no difference in preference?
-
Yep.
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How can you disagree with someone personally preferring something for their own use? :P ;D-40hz
By using words.
-Tuxman
By using words that make no difference in preference?
-wraith808
Wraith, it is users like this that are the reason I have a distaste for most of the Linux community. It is the elitist attitude that is still present in several old-time Linux users that really detracts from the overall Linux movement.
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I am not a part of "the Linux community".
"The Linux community" mainly consists of "I am too stupid to make my Windows work right" Dumbuntu/openSUSE users. I don't want to be a part of that. After all, if I want UNIX, I'll always choose BSD.
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I am not a part of "the Linux community".
"The Linux community" mainly consists of "I am too stupid to make my Windows work right" Dumbuntu/openSUSE users. I don't want to be a part of that. After all, if I want UNIX, I'll always choose BSD.
-Tuxman
;D I've actually never heard of it that way! It's usually the Linux people saying that about Windows. Good stuff.
-
I am not a part of "the Linux community".
"The Linux community" mainly consists of "I am too stupid to make my Windows work right" Dumbuntu/openSUSE users. I don't want to be a part of that. After all, if I want UNIX, I'll always choose BSD.
-Tuxman
*sigh* whatever...
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Yes.
-
yes.
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So what's going on?
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Windows 9 will be open source, that's what's going on :D
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Why should it?
After all, not even Linux (http://www.fsfla.org/svnwiki/selibre/linux-libre/) is completely free software.
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Assuming it makes it to 9. :P (It will BTW - but will anybody be buying it? That's the question.)
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They haven't even made it to 7 yet AFAIK. Windows 6.2 or something?
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/me munches popcorn and watches the train quickly derail
Can we make it go down in flames? I want some roasted marshmallows to go with my popcorn...
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/me munches popcorn and watches the train quickly derail
Can we make it go down in flames? I want some roasted marshmallows to go with my popcorn...
-wraith808
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Can we make it go down in flames?
-wraith808
Nope. It's already gotten boring. And predictable.
I want some roasted marshmallows to go with my popcorn...
-wraith808
Actually...toasted marshmallows sounds really good. Think I'll fire up the grill later tonight. Haven't had one of those in years. Thx for the suggestion! :up:
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Ok...one more thing I'm going to do in the spirit of experimentation, I'm going to do one command line install on linux mint this weekend. That's all, carry on everyone!
[edit] actually, this will be more fun. I'll try to do a screencast of it and post it so we can all see how i like to overcomplicate things.
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-- Which desktop environment you like, even if you want it to perfectly mimic Win7 or OSX!
-zridling
And exactly which one are you referring to that perfectly mimics the Win7 desktop, including the Windows taskbar in all it's glory? I want that taskbar, it's all I want. I can not be comfortable or productive in any OS that doesn't have a good impersonation of the Windows taskbar that can be configured in the way I am used to using it (https://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=25840.0;attach=55738;image) .
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;D ;D ;D This thread certainly has taken a funny turn!
superboyac: I'm looking forward to that screencast. I'm actually curious about how complicated that can get. Have you selected the program yet? That makes all the difference, I guess (especially if you select one that isn't in the repositories). I suggest something simple such as rythmbox (if that's installed already, then try banshee). Then maybe you can try something that is not in the repositories, such as Opera. I'm pretty sure you'll be surprised how the first one is so simple, and YMMV for the second one :P
app: actually that's a good question, can linux's taskbar be that scary? ;D I don't think it can get that large (why would anyone want it like that? :P), but I may be wrong.
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I don't think it can get that large
-jgpaiva
Yes, it can get that large, at least in Ubuntu. But unfortunately, it doesn't mean more room for more icons. It can only hold the same amount, but the icons resize themselves to be HUGE!
why would anyone want it like that?
-jgpaiva
Some people hate wading through menus looking for the apps they want to run, hate all the clicking to get to the folders and files they use often. Some people don't like remembering where those files and folders are located. And some people have never used the taskbar any other way. And for some people, the preference may be genetic. (3 generations of my family prefer their taskbar this way) ;)
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Yes, it can get that large, at least in Ubuntu. But unfortunately, it doesn't mean more room for more icons. It can only hold the same amount, but the icons resize themselves to be HUGE!
-app103
Yeah, that does look like a poor design decision. So, basically, it doesn't wrap to more lines? But if you're really interested in setting it up like that, I'm sure we could find a way somehow to do something similar. I'd say we might have to take a look at KDE instead of gnome, though.
why would anyone want it like that?
-jgpaiva
(sic)
-app103
I'm sorry, I was being silly but my comedic tone did not transpire from my writing. I know fully well how much you really like it like that :)
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;D ;D ;D This thread certainly has taken a funny turn!
superboyac: I'm looking forward to that screencast. I'm actually curious about how complicated that can get. Have you selected the program yet? That makes all the difference, I guess (especially if you select one that isn't in the repositories). I suggest something simple such as rythmbox (if that's installed already, then try banshee). Then maybe you can try something that is not in the repositories, such as Opera. I'm pretty sure you'll be surprised how the first one is so simple, and YMMV for the second one :P
app: actually that's a good question, can linux's taskbar be that scary? ;D I don't think it can get that large (why would anyone want it like that? :P), but I may be wrong.
-jgpaiva
No I haven't picked a program. I'm going to do it all in realtime, everything. Just so everyone can see how easy or difficult it will be for me. I was just playing with yawcam, a free webcam software. Very nice!
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Hi,
More recent attempt .. about 3 months back ..I picked up one of those English mag DVDs with about 3 or 4 recent Linux installs. I tried them on 2 different puters. They always got a glitch before the install was finished, sometimes with all sorts of scrolling text junque.
The only thing I remember was that the nature of the glitch varied by the Linux flavor.
Occasionally I try to burn a Linux install myself Then I don't usually get as far as I did with the DVDs above.
Steven
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Sorry to be so late to the party.
The question is too generic. Is Linux a Desktop (aka PC) hobby? That seems to be what you're discussing.
Is it a hobby OS for Fortune 100 Companies? Not hardly. I work for a F-20 company and was the first Linux guy they hired in 2009. By 2010 they decided to start a Unix to Linux migration project and kick out every Unix OS in favor of SuSE Linux. Linux was the first OS to pass internal audit. And we did it our first try. >95% of our business critical apps run on Linux. We have one of (if not the) largest SAP installations in the world, all running on SuSE. We're at 1500+ and growing servers.
Sorry to disappoint the MS FUD Teams... Linux is a real, enterprise class OS.
:two:
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I am not a part of "the Linux community".
"The Linux community" mainly consists of "I am too stupid to make my Windows work right" Dumbuntu/openSUSE users. I don't want to be a part of that. After all, if I want UNIX, I'll always choose BSD.-tuxman
*facepalm*
/me munches popcorn and watches the train quickly derail
-wraith808
Now if someone mentions Nazis, I'm gonna puke.
Oh, wait... dammit
*facepalm*
/me steals a toasted marshmallow from 40Hz
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Could you explain that facepalm?
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Well, there's this whole thing called Godwin's Laww, and though he was only saying something about mentioning Nazis, it counted... :lol:
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I meant the first one. 8)
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Ok folks! I have the new Linux Mint 13 running on my vmware beautifully. I have yawcam set up so you can see me. I have the audio setup, although I'm going to have to use headphone/mic setup because this is the same computer i do my hardcore recording stuff on (particulars of the setup). I need to install the screencast software, which is easy. I'll be rather busy this weekend with personal things, so maybe I'll be able to record everything next week.
mouser: can I have the resulting video hosted here directly, like your software screencasts? I don't want to put it on youtube, I've been angry at them lately. And it's likely to be a long and large video file.
This will be funny...I have zero idea what I'm doing. If it's not a button and a wizard, it's going to get real comical real fast.
also, I can't promise there will be nor cursing. I'll try to keep it under control, but it is a pastime I really enjoy.
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I have yawcam set up so you can see me.
For a minute, I thought your account got hacked by "wanna see me on cam" girl . :P
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I have yawcam set up so you can see me.
For a minute, I thought your account got hacked by "wanna see me on cam" girl . :P
-mahesh2k
Hope not. She's vastly overrated IMO. ;D
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wanna see me on cam
-40hz
?? I'm not getting this reference. I just googled it and i still don't get it. no big deal, doesn't sound terribly interesting anyway.
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Hey! I did the screencast! It's rendering right now, it's about 28 minutes long. I won't give away the ending, so that's all I'm gonna say.
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You can watch the screencast here:
http://minus.com/lbaph37Mp5JOcB
You can download it also. It's about 29 minutes, 80 MB. I go through attempting a command line installation on Linux Mint. It's all done in real time, and it's my actual first time trying to do it.
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You can watch the screencast here:
http://minus.com/lbaph37Mp5JOcB
You can download it also. It's about 29 minutes, 80 MB. I go through attempting a command line installation on Linux Mint. It's all done in real time, and it's my actual first time trying to do it.
-superboyac
That made me smile so many times :) Thanks a lot!
Also, I really wasn't expecting the bonus ending. Nice! :D
I really think that the comparison you made,"this is harder than double-clicking the exe and pressing next-next-next", isn't exactly fair since you tried installing from source, so you would have to compare with installing from source in windows also (which would be a pretty similar experience, I guess).
Now, let's try to keep this discussion civilized, guys :)
PS: did you have anyone operating the camera or is it smart enough to follow you? :-\
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Aram! The Man!!! :Thmbsup:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
I'm too sexy for my distro...too sexy for my... ;-))
I've often wished somebody would do a honest to goodness "live" installation and make an unscripted real-time video of it like this one.
Downloading it now. Can't wait to watch it when I get a free half hour. Woo-hoo! 8)
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It is the elitist attitude that is still present in several old-time Linux users that really detracts from the overall Linux movement.
-Josh
I would change several old-time to many experienced :P, but otherwise am in complete agreement with that statement. That is what has turned me away from most forms of Linux every time I've tried to mainstream it, not just use it for tech/recovery purposes.
I mentioned the RTFMs earlier that I got in the forae. There's a little more to that than just the statement. Almost every time someone makes that recommendation, they are making a number of assumptions. First, they assume that you have not read the manual - or man pages. Second, they assume that if you do read that documentation, you will come away with the same understanding they have. And, to a lesser extent, they are irritated that your questions intrude on reading the really important stuff in that particular forum.
But the bottom line, for me at least, is the quality of the documentation. There's a lot of information there, but most of it is written by experienced users for experienced users. I spent a few years as a technical writer, and believe you me, there is an art to it, an art that many people just don't have. Writing about technical matters in such a manner that non-technical people can read and make sense of the material takes a lot of work. I understand why the docs are written the way they are, but that does not make them easier to read/interpret.
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For those new to Linux who may have been following along...
If you're serious about getting into Linux, check out any of the books put out by Mark G. Sobell. Amazon page here (http://www.amazon.com/Mark-G.-Sobell/e/B000APJW04/ref=la_B000APJW04_pg_1?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_82%3AB000APJW04&ie=UTF8&qid=1343151299). If you need information, search no further. Here is bedrock.
Start with either Fedora or Ubuntu - and work your way through either his Fedora (http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Guide-Fedora-Enterprise-Edition/dp/0132757273/ref=la_B000APJW04_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343151619&sr=1-1) or Ubuntu (http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Guide-Ubuntu-Linux-Edition/dp/013254248X/ref=la_B000APJW04_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1343151670&sr=1-3) specific titles.
You can also supplement either book with one of the O'Reilly "Hacks" titles. There are versions specifically for Ubuntu and Fedora. These give you short well written chapters for dealing with common niggling issues plus instructions for fun/useful stuff to do - all in a handy cookbook format.
If you want to go beyond that, you can then pick up a copy of his A Practical Guide to Linux Commands, Editors, and Shell Programming (http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Commands-Editors-Programming-Edition/dp/0131367366/ref=la_B000APJW04_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1343151434&sr=1-2). Lots more good stuff here starting at the intermediate user level and moving well into the expert range.
Another superb title (and pretty much the current bible of all things Linux) is UNIX and Linux System Administration Handbook (http://www.amazon.com/Linux-System-Administration-Handbook-Edition/dp/0131480057/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c). If you want to do something with Linux as a career, this tome is a must have. And forget the MAN pages. They are written by experts for experts. This book spells things out in plain-speak. Or at least as much as is possible. (Note: Some things are never going to be completely easy to get your head around until you start actively using them. And even then, some parts of Linux are just plain hard to grasp or deal with. Remember: even experts have to RTFM every so often. And when they do, this is the "FM" they usually reach for.)
Also check out the Distrowatch (http://www.distrowatch.com) website and prepare to sample the bounty of distros and packages available to a Linux user. And all at no charge.
If you want to experience a very elegant desktop environment, give Linux Mint (http://linuxmint.com/) a try. If you want something a little more 'ninja' try CrunchBang Linux (http://crunchbanglinux.org/). For full blown bells & whistles check out Pinguy OS (http://pinguyos.com/) or Sabayon (http://www.sabayon.org/).
...or put a second NIC card in an old PC you have gathering dust, and turn it into a full-bore commercial grade firewall network appliance that can easily hold its own against products that would otherwise cost hundreds if not thousands by downloading and installing pfSense (http://www.pfsense.org/) or Smoothwall Express (http://www.smoothwall.org/) on it.
...or build a very capable home server with FreeNAS (http://www.freenas.org/)...
...or network gateway server appliance with Zenytal (http://www.zentyal.org/) or ClearOS (http://http://www.clearfoundation.com/)
...or build a home theater media server using XBMC (http://xbmc.org/) or a DVR box with MythTV (http://www.mythtv.org/).
Or even better...if you really want to understand how Linux works, try a modern bare metal distro like Arch Linux (http://www.archlinux.org/) where you need to set everything up by hand - but end up with a completely customized desktop or server that does exactly what you want it to do the way you want to do it. (And also become an expert user in the process.)
I could (maybe do? :-\ ) go on and on... ;D
One of these days I'm going to have to write this all up once and for all and put it in a PDF for download. :P
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^^Thanks 40, good stuff there. I'll have to go through those eventually. Maybe I'll do more videos like that showing me struggling through all this in real time!
PS: did you have anyone operating the camera or is it smart enough to follow you?
-jgpaiva
It follows me automatically. It's the new Logitech 920 webcam, I've really been digging it lately.
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Nice video there superboyac.
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^^Thanks 40, good stuff there.
-superboyac
Definitely agreed on that point!
One of these days I'm going to have to write this all up once and for all and put it in a PDF for download. :P
-40hz
What's stopping you? That's some good info!
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^ If you start with Ubuntu, you will learn a lot about how Linux does not work.
(Yay, 1,000th posting!)
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^^Thanks 40, good stuff there. I'll have to go through those eventually. Maybe I'll do more videos like that showing me struggling through all this in real time!
-superboyac
+1!
I'd really like to see more, it's always fun to understand where people have problems with anything on the first time they use it. Even if I'm not developing a OS, it's a learning experience since it allows to predict what kind of stuff works badly.
It follows me automatically. It's the new Logitech 920 webcam, I've really been digging it lately.
-superboyac
Awesome :) And it works perfectly!
Also, since I have some more time now, here's the two largest problems I believe stomped you:
1 - directories in unix are case sensitive ("Downloads" and not "downloads" ;) )
2 - you were missing some dependencies. In particular, your distribution runs the Gnomew window manager, and the program you tried to install needs KDEw. This is a common problem, but had you used some package manager instead of installing from source and you wouldn't have this problem.
Also, there's a third way to install stuff (which is mostly painless) that you haven't tried (which is the one that is equivalent to installing stuff in Windows): downloading compiled binaries and installing them using a package manager ("apt-get" or "aptitude", for example). An example of this is Opera.
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Ubuntu has gnome shell (unity) which uses nautilus, KDE uses konqueror and XFCE is on thunar. All these are installed with your distro. I think if you want two pane file managers then you have lots of choices. Some are ugly in UI but still powerful.
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Also, since I have some more time now, here's the two largest problems I believe stomped you:
1 - directories in unix are case sensitive ("Downloads" and not "downloads" ;) )
2 - you were missing some dependencies. In particular, your distribution runs the Gnomew window manager, and the program you tried to install needs KDEw. This is a common problem, but had you used some package manager instead of installing from source and you wouldn't have this problem.
Also, there's a third way to install stuff (which is mostly painless) that you haven't tried (which is the one that is equivalent to installing stuff in Windows): downloading compiled binaries and installing them using a package manager ("apt-get" or "aptitude", for example). An example of this is Opera.
-jgpaiva
Perhaps I'll have to explore these methods in the next video. I want to learn how to install ANY Linux-comaptible program I come across into whatever distro I'm using. I'm sure that means a fair amount of compiling and other stuff in the terminal, so that's the goal.
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Perhaps I'll have to explore these methods in the next video. I want to learn how to install ANY Linux-comaptible program I come across into whatever distro I'm using. I'm sure that means a fair amount of compiling and other stuff in the terminal, so that's the goal.
-superboyac
I'm not sure if that's the right way to go about it. Honestly, the "app store" (or whatever it is) method works pretty well for 90% of the cases. The "install from binary" method works for 9.9% of the cases. And then from the remaining 0.1%, 90% works after some "./configure && make install" voodoo. However, I imagine there are hundreds of different and specific ways to install stuff in the 0.01% remaining, which realistically you'll never need unless you require some very specific tool.
What I'm saying is: start with the basics and learn lazily, have fun using linux instead of trying to learn every single manual page because that'll kill your experience for no reason.
So, next time you try to install something in linux from a web site, search for the binaries (if you really want to not use the "app store" :P ). Since you're using something based on debian, you should be able to find the binaries for pretty much anything. For Krusader, the instructions were here: http://www.krusader.org/get-krusader/
DISCLAIMER: all statistics in this post were made up on the spot, based on my own experience. YMMV
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So maybe the next video should be me exploring the different ways to install stuff. I'd be interested in the one application that wasn't in the software manager, and then figuring out the different ways to get it to run.
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.tar.bz, .gzip, type of files works on all distributions and you have to use respective terminal command to install from source.
.deb is debian distro specific file format and you have to use apt-get -i to install them. You're using mint which is under debians branch. That means you can compile this format on distro.
Another option- install gdebi and then use any format supported by debian to install software.
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...or build a very capable home server with FreeNAS (http://www.freenas.org/)...
-40hz
Oh, by the way, before you put that into a PDF:
You do know that FreeNAS is not a Linux distribution, don't you?
Actually it is a really good example why BSD kicks ass. :D
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^I do actually.
Actually, to be even more precise, I forgot that FreeNAS's planned move over to Debian a few years back was abandoned. (Was that late 2008 or sometime in 2009?)
And neither is pfSense now that I think about it.
Momentary slips. I was on a roll. :)
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"pf" sounds like the classical BSD firewall indeed. :)
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*sigh*
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More details please!
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...
I mentioned the RTFMs earlier that I got in the forae. There's a little more to that than just the statement. Almost every time someone makes that recommendation, they are making a number of assumptions. First, they assume that you have not read the manual - or man pages. Second, they assume that if you do read that documentation, you will come away with the same understanding they have. And, to a lesser extent, they are irritated that your questions intrude on reading the really important stuff in that particular forum.
...
-barney
Spot.
Fecking.
On.
As dedicated a Linux fan as I am, I will never hesitate to give an answer to a question honestly asked, and for those very reasons. I DID RTFM, I DID STFW, and I STILL had to ask stupid questions, (as in, it was stupid I had to ask because the documentation was so spotty), so I know what an uphill battle it can be, even when it really isn't, or doesn't have to be.
Even though I agree with most of 'How to ask questions the smart way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html)', it pains me that so much gets made of it, while 'How to answer questions the helpful way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp30009456)' gets short shrift in general practice.
IMHO, that section could use a little expansion.
-> $0.02
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Spot.
Fecking.
On.
As dedicated a Linux fan as I am, I will never hesitate to give an answer to a question honestly asked, and for those very reasons. I DID RTFM, I DID STFW, and I STILL had to ask stupid questions, (as in, it was stupid I had to ask because the documentation was so spotty), so I know what an uphill battle it can be, even when it really isn't, or doesn't have to be.
Even though I agree with most of 'How to ask questions the smart way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html)', it pains me that so much gets made of it, while 'How to answer questions the helpful way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp30009456)' gets short shrift in general practice, and that section could use a little expansion besides.
-> $0.02
-Edvard
When I was active on Tek-Tips a decade or so ago - it was just getting started - I had one (1) overriding rule: answer the question that was asked, if at all possible, then suggest alternatives if the question seemed to be a bit askew. Got chastised for it, from a few other answerers, but mostly accolades from the folk who'd asked the question.
The chastisement is all too common in most forae :(, and the accolades, should they happen, don't always make up for that.
(One (1) of the reasons I stay on DC ... the question asked usually gets an answer, or at least a resource ... and let us not forget the [frequent] times that the answer gets created on the spot :-* :Thmbsup:)
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Even though I agree with most of 'How to ask questions the smart way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html)', it pains me that so much gets made of it, while 'How to answer questions the helpful way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp30009456)' gets short shrift in general practice.
-Edvard
Good links! Thanks for the info! I do love the second point- and it's one of the reasons I come to DC with questions (and answers when I can)- Choose your forum carefully ;)