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Poll

Which File Manager do you rely on in Windows?

Windows Explorer
Directory Opus
Total Commander
XYPlorer
xplorer2
Altap/Servant Salamander
Frigate
Speed Commander
AB Commander
Haven't decided yet.
Other
Variety is the spice of life - I use mutliple File Managers!!
Power Desk

Last post Author Topic: What's your preferred File Manager  (Read 258204 times)

michaelkenward

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #525 on: February 01, 2014, 09:50:01 AM »
It's one of the most powerful programs you will ever use, but it can also be one of the most complicated you'll ever use as well. Those who master its secrets will never fear a file management task ever again, but the journey can be a difficult one.

This seems to go with the territory. Powerful software equals complicated.

When I moved from Power Desk, when it became abandonware, I switched to Directory Opus, the most used file manager here, after Explorer. Some years on, the more I use it the less I know.

I suspect that the best guide to these packages is the support that you can get, and the manuals they offer. Directory Opus comes with a manual written by the experts for the experts. So it is not newcomer friendly. But it does have a reactive support forum that does not poor scorn on dumb questions.

Were I seeking a file manager, I would look at support, and the price of course, including frequency and cost of updates, rather than the power under the hood. My guess is that they all steal from one another on the front. If one does something neat, the others will follow.



MK

twinkler

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #526 on: February 01, 2014, 04:12:17 PM »
Deping has taken us into Android territory.

I want to echo the love for Samba Filesharing. I rooted my phone for the sole purpose of being able to use Dopus to copy files over wifi from my PC to my phone. KitKat complicated things and requires using a patched apk from SFS's xda forum, but I found it well worth it.

Innuendo

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #527 on: February 02, 2014, 10:26:33 AM »
When I moved from Power Desk, when it became abandonware, I switched to Directory Opus, the most used file manager here, after Explorer. Some years on, the more I use it the less I know.

Unless one is constantly doing new tasks that they've never done before that's not much of a problem. Let's face it, most of us are creatures of habit and that carries over into our file management tasks as well. I suspect most people, like I have, just set things up the way they want it when they first start using their file manager and barring any little tweaks here and there from time to time most people's configurations stay static.

Quote
But it does have a reactive support forum that does not poor scorn on dumb questions.

DOpus has a wonderful forum. It's better than Total Commander's by a long shot. TC's forums are populated by people who are dead-set on doing things the way they have always been done. This is one of the reasons I moved from TC to DOpus as TC's user base won't let the author try anything too radical or new & therefore progress is being stifled.

Quote
My guess is that they all steal from one another on the front. If one does something neat, the others will follow.

File managers have been around for a very long time. I would daresay that most of the innovation that comes in that market comes in new ways to present data rather than new ways to process data.

My only advice is to not put too much stock in first impressions. Often the screen that greets you when you first run that new file manager for the first time can be tweaked quite a bit to make it very different than what you first encounter. This is especially true of Total Commander and Directory Opus and they are both things that the more you put in towards learning their abilities the greater your reward will be.

Innuendo

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #528 on: February 02, 2014, 10:32:13 AM »
Deping has taken us into Android territory.

That's a whole new ball game. For the longest time I've used File Expert. I used it when it was free and jumped on the pro license when it went live the first day for $2.00. I'm not sure I like the direction they've been going with development so I've been meaning to try something new. However, I really love having root exploring, wireless FTP access, and wireless HTTP access all within one app.

I'm also prone to using WiFi Explorer Pro which I nabbed as an Amazon Free App of the Day a long time ago. It has a very nice browser interface on your desktop to access your phone.

MerleOne

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #529 on: February 05, 2014, 03:23:48 PM »
I oscillate between XYplorer and Xplorer2 Ultimate.  I also occasionnally use Total Commander, and DirOpus, the latter being quite difficult to configure.  And on Mac OS, I use the excellent PathFinder.
.merle1.

Tuxman

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #530 on: February 05, 2014, 03:29:36 PM »
On Android, I fell in love with Solid Explorer, although I try alternatives (namely Lime and Fx) every now and then.

peter.s

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #531 on: February 12, 2014, 09:23:41 AM »
Re XY: Its memory M doesn't seem to be really on the ace side, since after some hours (= that's acceptable, imo) of moving around pics, it (or more specifically, its special, rather new preview pane) is a real burden on my system, and closing down XY, and then re-opening XY will not do away with the prob, only closing down Win (XP) will solve the prob.

This being said, this floating preview pane (which I look upon on my second screen, tree and thumbs being on my main screen) is a BIG, BIG factor in my having chosen XY (of which I own a lifetime license, as for some others) for my pic M (but amended with some AHK scripting for this) - I like it a lot for that task.

This being said (again), I heavily suppose that DO would not be any "worse" than XY in this respect (but most dedicated pic viewers are!!!)...

As for traditional file M, ALL file managers are rather dumb, independently of them being free, or paid, and I kindly invite you to have another look at FreeCommander XE, which is a quite wonderful piece of (free, as the name indicates) sw, and which I prefer to use, again and again and again, in my daily file M - again, with some AHK scripting (but which would apply to any of my 6 or 7 file managers as well)...

In other words, I own several paid file managers, but 95 p.c. of my time (and except for pic M), I use this free one of which I'm more than fond.

I've said it before, and I say it again: Most file managers include SOME level of "additional (more or less integrated) functionality" to justify their respective price, but in ANY, EVERY case, there is at least ONE (even free!!!) tool that's FAR BETTER than the one having been included into your paid file manager, and which makes (or should make) you look from another, different perspective to these (sometimes rather preposterous) offerings.

ANY ONE of these paid file managers suffer(s) from them clinging to the old, outdated 2-pane NC concept, and I had been called a fool/idiot/lunatic in ANY of these fora, and by ANY of those developers, when I begged for MORE than 2 panes (and very unfortunately, Q-Dir is buggy like hell, whilst FileBoss comes with LOTSA probs of its own), whilst, for paying for a file manager, IT'S THE THIRD PANE that would justify almost any price (in an otherwise really good, stable, robust file manager), but that third pane only.

Re X2 (and of which I also own "lifetime"), it's one of the most HYPED applics out there, especially with a developer who, just like XY's (but with the difference that XY's sometimes comes with real good ideas of his own), does NOT listen to "ace users"... well, that's what I'd call myself in this respect, wanting to express that those "power users" would HAVE been a gold mine of good ideas for the respective developer, in order to very quickly propulse that particular file manager onto top of the bunch...

So, for "doing additional things from within your file manager", both XY and DO seem to be of some additional value (but could easily be replaced by more dedicated tools, in those respects), whilst "traditional, paid file managers", be them called X2, SC, TC, whatever, ain't worth their respective asking price - I'm speaking here from years-long, sometimes very intimate experience with (paid versions of) those; so some fine craft like FreeCommander XE, for "regular, standard use" is far from negligeable.

This being said (again), there are "alternative solutions", or more precisely, offerings that TRY at least, to offer some alternative, and I lately wrote about them here:

http://www.outliners...ented-miller-columns

File M IS different from IM, so you simply cannot mix up possible approaches, but it's undeniable that even FM cul-de-sacs are of high conceptual interest to what we're all striving at at the end of the day, and which is IM as a whole.
When the wise points to the moon, the moron just looks at his pointer. China.

Tuxman

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #532 on: May 30, 2014, 06:37:04 PM »
As I'm currently flooding several boards with it, I'd like to attach my question also here:

Being a happy XY/x² user, I'm still looking for a good "orthodox" file manager (Norton Commander clone) for certain tasks. Required: SFTP support, no way to disable the second panel (I want to force myself into using it correctly), a decent GUI (no Total Commander stuff pls).

Altap Salamander, SpeedCommander or something very different? Any good reasons?
Tried them both (and FAR) and can't really decide.

panzer

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #533 on: May 31, 2014, 01:54:23 AM »
I am playing with Just Manager:
http://justmanager.ru/

Otherwise, Q-Dir is good enough for me ...

Jibz

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #534 on: May 31, 2014, 03:03:45 AM »
Being a happy XY/x² user, I'm still looking for a good "orthodox" file manager (Norton Commander clone) for certain tasks. Required: SFTP support, no way to disable the second panel (I want to force myself into using it correctly), a decent GUI (no Total Commander stuff pls).

I think if your only gripe with TC is how the GUI looks, you owe it to yourself to fix it up a little and try it again. Use a decent font like Consolas 10pt, change the color scheme, and add Notepad2 (set exit on Esc in its options) as the F4 editor. (I also added keyboard shortcuts so Ctrl-Left and Ctrl-Right change current drive, and Alt-anything to start searching, but those a preference I picked up from Dos Navigator.)

Orthogonal file managers are about a way of navigating the file system that has worked for almost 30 years, and while TC is ugly in its default setup, it can provide a very good implementation of this way of working with files. Basically, if you have to use the mouse, there's something going wrong.

Tuxman

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #535 on: May 31, 2014, 04:56:33 AM »
@panzer: JustManager still lacks SFTP support, right? :(

Sorry, Jibz, but I really tried. I tried Total Commander several times since its 7.0 days IIRC, playing with its config., talking to some users, trying to make it look like something I might want to look at for a couple of hours a day. No chance. Even the "Ultima Prime" mod looks awfully on all screenshots I've ever stumbled upon. I guess "form follows function", but if I have the choice, I'd choose both. (Not that x² looked too modern either, but still...)
Yesterday I gave it another run - couldn't even find out how to use the SFTP plug-in.

wraith808

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #536 on: May 31, 2014, 10:39:58 AM »
I used Altap Salamander up until I found DOpus.  Love it... there were some quirks to how it operated that DOpus fixed for me (don't really remember what it was now, and even looking it over I can't remember what it was, so maybe they fixed it).  When Dopus 9 no longer works for me (OS Upgrades or whatever), I'll probably give it another try.

Innuendo

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #537 on: May 31, 2014, 10:48:32 AM »
Sorry, Jibz, but I really tried. I tried Total Commander several times since its 7.0 days IIRC, playing with its config., talking to some users, trying to make it look like something I might want to look at for a couple of hours a day. No chance. Even the "Ultima Prime" mod looks awfully on all screenshots I've ever stumbled upon.

I once read a user review of Total Commander that likened it to playing the piano. He was right because much like hitting different chords of keys on the piano enables one to make any sound, hitting different chords of keys on your keyboard allows one to accomplish any file management task within Total Commander. I'll extend that analogy even farther. If one wants to become a 'concert pianist' with Total Commander, it's going to take a lot of dedication and learning.

Unfortunately, that dedication and learning not only applies to the function, but to the form as well. You can change everything you see...the icons, fonts, key commands, plugins, the menu items...but last I checked there was no unified how-to guide. Everything you need is in their forum, but you'll be digging around to find everything you need and you'll be spending most of your time in text configuration files rather than a well-designed GUI. However, I have to point out that investing that level of dedication and learning is not without its rewards. Once finished, you'd have one of the most powerful file managers that has ever existed, completely customized around your workflow. However, at the end of the day, one orthodox file manager looks like pretty much any other orthodox file manager. They all pretty much share the same 'old school' look.

The Ultima Prime mod is something I wouldn't mess with. It's main purpose is to cram as much functionality & plugins as possible into one Total Commander configuration. Sure, it does everything for you, but you won't learn anything that way. If you run into bugs or want to upgrade a plugin on your own, you'll have to wade through a lot of stuff trying to make sense out of everything. Also, with Ultima Prime's kitchen sink approach, you're going to have a lot of plugins installed you'll never want or need which means a lot more opportunity for things to go wrong. Finally, everything will be set up as what someone else thinks is the optimal configuration, not you so you'd have to learn to work the way someone else works. Not good.

Orthodox file managers, when they were invented, catered to a world where storage was small and users only stored data in a few places. In the modern world, I find that I need to have more than just two panels open at a time. Maybe I'm working with my music library...source, destination, possibly preview and metadata panels are what I like to have open. Or perhaps my pictures library...source, destination, and preview panels for that task. Therefore, although I have a license to Total Commander I've moved on to a different file manager as the orthodox style can be restrictive and claustrophobic at times.

As for the programs you mentioned, I've used both extensively, but quite a long time ago so I don't have much experience with the recent versions. They were both solid performers at the time, though. SpeedCommander is very German-centric and Salamander seems to want to nickel and dime you for every plugin.

Innuendo

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #538 on: May 31, 2014, 10:50:58 AM »
I used Altap Salamander up until I found DOpus.

Directory Opus is another one that isn't done justice by screenshots. Like Total Commander, it's very plain-jane out of the box but it's extremely customizable. Directory Opus presents everything in a comprehensive GUI so you don't have to wade through text files. You just have to wade through a GUI full of configuration checkboxes that never seems to end. ;)

wraith808

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #539 on: May 31, 2014, 11:09:23 AM »
Salamander seems to want to nickel and dime you for every plugin.

I'd rather nickel-and-dime than the whole dollar up front for things I don't need.  There are a lot of "nice" features in DOpus.  But I don't use most of them.  So to pay $100+ for features I don't need...


Tuxman

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #540 on: May 31, 2014, 11:15:20 AM »
As for the programs you mentioned, I've used both extensively, but quite a long time ago so I don't have much experience with the recent versions. They were both solid performers at the time, though. SpeedCommander is very German-centric and Salamander seems to want to nickel and dime you for every plugin.

As a German, the centricism isn't too bad for me.  :P
But thanks for the "comparison" though.

rjbull

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #541 on: June 01, 2014, 04:06:10 PM »
Orthodox file managers, when they were invented, catered to a world where storage was small and users only stored data in a few places. In the modern world, I find that I need to have more than just two panels open at a time.
I think it was DOS Navigator that allowed you to have multiple pairs of panels open at a time.  I couldn't multi-task well enough for that, preferring to do things serially, where Total Commander's favourite folders list and folder history were very helpful.  Perhaps it helps if you have a big monitor.  For the record, here's an interesting link: Less is More: Orthodox File Managers as Sysadmin IDE (the Orthodox File Managers page).

Innuendo

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #542 on: June 01, 2014, 06:43:25 PM »
As a German, the centricism isn't too bad for me.  :P
But thanks for the "comparison" though.

There was a time when I could give you an in-depth comparison of every Windows file manager available (and some Mac & Linux ones as well), but I'm afraid these days my knowledge is a little dated. Total Commander, FAR, and Directory Opus are the most powerful and the most versatile, extensible products on the market. Every other file manager is just a sub-set of those three.

peter.s

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #543 on: June 04, 2014, 04:05:48 PM »
Thanks, rjbull, for the link to softpanorama.org, some instructive content, even if it's been a LONG while I've seen some other site as ugly: straight from 1983, or so it seems to me.

He's got some page "Programmable keyboards" over there, too, with "Using AHK instead of a prog. kb" - well, you know, I think by now, that it's "Using AKS ON a prog. kb", of course, i.e. just assigning weird key combis on the prog. kb, and then intercepting those impossible key combis by ahk, to do the real scripting.

Tuxman, your Germanese, "As a German, the centricism isn't too bad for me." is awful, Germans to this ALL THE TIME. I'm no teacher, can't give the right terms to it, but let me explain: "As a xyz" is subject 1; then, "the centricism" (or whatever) is subject 2, and the verb, here "isn't", depends on subject 2, whilst the "As a" for subject 1 unsuccessfully tries to make it depend from subject 1. As they say, Goethe's spirit would rotate in his sepulchre, had it knowledge of such ways of speaking. Thus, every German out there/here, please, say, "For me/him/whomever as a xyz" (by this, transposing subject 1 into accustive, by this breaking up the link with the verb), if really you can't do without the "as a" structure which is of utmost ugliness anyway.

As for SC: NO English-language forum, just in German; NO English-language help file, just in German; no help worth to speak of in the Forum, even in German, just Germans musing abing absence of features, and the developer not deigning to intervene/clarify/inform, except for very rare occasions. Additional prob: In order to "find" something either in the help file or the forum, you must know the German term first, and be assured they just don't use simple translations but have their own, very special SC terminology for many common English terms... (And you should be able to read German to begin with, of course.)

Comes with several add-ins, e.g. a text search function, similar to the one in XY (and neither better nor worse, neither slower nor faster than there; I own both and compared extensively), or a synch tool (which is really bad), and, of course, bulk renaming as any paid file manager offers to some degree (see below).

"Every other file manager is just a sub-set of those three." Innuendo, this is simply not true, Besides, whenever I see a FAR screenshot (as in the linked softpanorama), I feel an urge to scream out loud (Wanna buy my NC, Dos or Win, anyone, btw? = rhetoric question).

Of course, TC is very powerful, but 2 things:

- My ways of doing an AHK tutorial may be debatable, and yes, it was a "work in the make", and I should have it revised, and edited; cut up into several posts, it's become a mess. But then, I tried at least (and am not too motivated to do the necessary work on it, by lack of feedback, i.e. no AHK noob to ask about details, so what!), and any TC "expert" would be free to do something similar (cf. the post above, about the need to search it all together, over numerous hours of hard work, from dozens of forum entries), in order to make TC more "accessible", both from a technical pov and from a gui pov (yes, the step from bold to regular font is known by now, but that's not enough, as we all know).

- But that is not done, and this brings me to a second observation: My tries with the forum were that the developer doesn't take part in it, except some possible exceptions, and if you explain another one of the innumarable weirdnesses of TC and ask for an option to have it another, more "normal" way, TC experts will explain, with lots of goodwill (cf. DO forum, where you will be attacked instead), "why" it is as it is, and only that way, and most of the time, these explanations are quite weird on their own, whilst the developer just has it his way, no any other. Thus, the form of discussion is much more pleasant in TC, than in DO forum, but you quickly get the impression that nothing really will ever change though, and version history (8 now) proves that your impression is right. Also, explanations about "how to" are sparse, and (as said above by Innuendo), are both fractionized and aleatoric... and, my impression, TC experts on that forum like it a lot like that.

Thus, TC expertise has become their hobby, and just as I don't count my spare time spent with AHK, they do similar with TC - of course, people who preserve a minimum of objectivity would argue that time spent with a scripting (or programming) language might be time which, at least in perspective, is spent to some reasonable goal, whilst for file managers, it should be "want to do something? here it is, immediate availabality, so that it won't make you lose time unnecessarily": A file manager should be a readily-available instrument for special tasks, not your new folly.

The same applies to other file managers, to a degree, and certainly to DO where "spending time with my preferred file manager DO" has become a hobby on its own for quite some people, whilst the intuitiveness is often absent; on the other hand, DO's got one of the very best help files out there, which helps a lot for lots (if not all) of things.

But at the end of the day, whilst most daily functionality is perfectly done by FC or such, and whilst XY (today on bits, 50% if you havn't got it yet) certainly has got the most pleasant photo viewer functionality of the immediate competition:

As soon as you get to some special needs, you try your 5 or 8 file commanders, 1 by 1, and then you risk to do it by hand. Last weekend, e.g., I needed to rename JUST the FIRST term of a bunch of folders from upper- to lowercase (whilst the rest of those names would have to be left unchanged). So I spent more than 2 hours with my numerous file managers, and tried to apply, where it DID apply, my knowledge about several regex replace flavors, to no avail whatsoever, and finally, in XY, it did it manually, but renaming in the XY rename list, which at least spared me multiple F2, Return, F2...

Every file manager does it its own way, deep down to regex replace in file names, and the respective help files are far from being up to par, and you end up thinking that you search, and try, in vain, because the relevant special functionality simply isn't there.

A last word on SC (I'm repeating myself here, but it's important, and, ok, I didn't try the last versions of it): If you want quick access to a subfolder (beginning with "ac"), you enter "ac": So far, so ubiquitous. But then, in order to display that subfolder, you press enter TWO times, not once (or you opt for (the totally awful) "NC mode"), and quite frankly, that drives me crazy, since it forces you to always reflect on "in which file manager / program am I? 1 enter, or 2 enter? So many people in their forum criticised this crazy behaviour, and the developer didn't lend them his ear, over many years (as said, perhaps it's set now, but I'm not sure at all about this).

I like XY, for photos. For everything else, I use FC. And to finish: I suspect SC people to not being able to write in English, and that would then of course hold them back over there, in that depressing but German-speaking forum.
When the wise points to the moon, the moron just looks at his pointer. China.

mwb1100

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #544 on: June 04, 2014, 07:22:55 PM »
I didn't know that FAR was open source (http://code.google.com/p/farmanager/)! For some reason, that makes me want to try it.

Tuxman

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #545 on: June 05, 2014, 05:44:57 AM »
Hey, my English isn't as perfect as your German. :)
(Also it's "do", not "to". :P)

I found the SC forums to be rather helpful, but I found a couple of things missing in SC too, like regex support for the renamer and a way to properly set emacsclient as the preferred editor. Still, setting the editor and the renamer as "external applications" and using Listary makes SC rather interesting.

Of course TC has a long history of being tweaked by hobbyists. I, for one, prefer to just use a file manager.

peter.s

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #546 on: June 05, 2014, 06:42:41 AM »
Tuxman, yes, it's "do", not "to", a classic typo even current spelling sw would not identify... whilst they SHOULD identify such false friends/nearly-homonyms causing clearly identifiable syntax errors.

But my point was different, it has nothing to do with transposing a German idiom into English, but about that German figure of speech being totally awful, AND being totally wrong, even in German, and then, Germans using this bad structure even when they write in English, i.e. not even the literal translation does them make stumble upon the ultimate wrongness of that wording, and far from wanting to attack you, I just wanted to verbalize this language mutilation (i.e. indecency in ANY language, but borne, it seems, on German ground?) once and for all.

No offence! But I so much long for never reading this outrage anymore, from anybody, at least in this sophisticated forum. (I) as xyz, change of subject, verb - das geht gar nicht! ;-)
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Tuxman

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #547 on: June 05, 2014, 06:49:34 AM »
Ich werde es beherzigen. ;)

peter.s

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #548 on: June 05, 2014, 07:33:44 AM »
I bet you will! No, seriously, that's why I wrote this passage here: All day long, millions of writers use wrong wordings, both without thinking, and, worse, encouraged by reading those same wordings by millions of fellow writers, and in the long run, it all ends up with even who have their say on language issues, will "accept" those wordings, for them having been generally used for so long long.

While on the other hand, I very much hope I make people stumble upon their "As xyz, ..." use next time they will be tempted to use it, and their memory saying, wait, that was wrong, ain't it? I'll reword it!

I've got another one, which unfortunately seems "unstoppable" as well: Subject in singular, then another subject in plural, and then the verb, in either form, but if in plural, in a form that syntaxically does NOT englobe both subjects (or worse, first subject in plural, second one in singular), and when the only correct phrasing would have been to repeat the verb, or even more elegant, to use singular, then plural (or vice versa), but of a synonymous verb.

Whenever I read the next real-life misconstructed "both singular and plural, with common verb" sentence here, I'll jump on it, promised! ;-)


EDIT: Often, in this second example, it would be sufficient to group subject 1 and then subject 2 with a comma and a pronoun, in order to establish the correct connection to the common verb, but that short add-in is left out, by which the whole sentence doesn't hold together anymore.

EDIT 2, the day after:

"Und um die Steuerprüfung mache ich mir keine Sorgen. Als Student mit Jahreseinkommen unter 8000€ ist die Steuererklärung doch sehr übersichtlich..." ( today on www.zeit.de re the divine Alice Schwarzer who only pays taxes within the limits of what she thinks is sensible by HER standards ) - Translation: [Not: For me as..., not: As a ..., I think my ..., but:] "As a university student [sic] with an income of under 8,000€ p.a. the [in German, "the" instead of "my" here is ok though] annual tax return is/remains easy to grasp and manageable [for me], so I don't fear tax audits."

These "As (a) xyz, subject 2, verb in relation to the latter" misconstructions abound in German. Awful! ;-)
When the wise points to the moon, the moron just looks at his pointer. China.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 06:50:08 AM by peter.s »

Tuxman

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Re: What's your preferred File Manager
« Reply #549 on: June 05, 2014, 08:06:58 AM »
Well, thanks for the lesson. :)