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Last post Author Topic: A question about DRM  (Read 9917 times)

PaladinMJ

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A question about DRM
« on: July 03, 2007, 12:12:50 AM »
I have some avi's that I paid for from Direct2drive.com that I would LOVE to watch on my DVD player as I have a small screen on the PC. The AVI's MUST be played in WMP 10 or better, the wont play in anything else I have: VLC, media player classic, powerDVD, winDVD, etc. Does anyone know of a program that will help me? either make them playable on a DVDplayer or help with the DRM.

I payed the same as I would have if I would have bought the DVD but without the extra's the menu's or the nice ephemora. I just want to watch them in comfort. I've paid for them rightfuly. Is that possible? or have I learned a costly lesson?
When I have a mission, it consumes me; I will not be satisfied until the job is done. I have a strong sense of duty, and a strong sense of direction. Changes in the tide don't phase me - I always know which way the wind blows, and I know how to compensate for it. I get on poorly with people like myself.

f0dder

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2007, 05:26:43 AM »
You have learned a costly lesson, I'm afraid.

There might be workarounds, but the companies behind the DRM will claim that it's illegal.
- carpe noctem

Carol Haynes

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2007, 06:52:50 AM »
Check out a websearch on Fairuse WMV - I believe there was an app that could help but I don't know how it works or if it still works.

Plasma Man

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2007, 07:59:44 AM »
Possibly DVD Fab Platinum could handle it - you could try it.
http://www.dvdfab.com/download.htm

Another option is to try a transcoder such as SUPER.
http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html

Carol Haynes

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 09:49:18 AM »
DVD Fab won't work - that just decodes DVDs and recodes stuff for portable devices.

The problem with video is that you have to play it in WMP. For DRMed audio files it is simple - burn it to CD and rip it back as MP3.

Jimdoria

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2007, 01:38:50 PM »
Breaking video out of DRM is going to be tough, as the entire point of DRM is to keep you from getting to the video so you can do whatever you want with it. Didn't you know that when you paid for the clips?

Anyway, have a look at this: http://www.hmelyoff....index.php?section=8.

It's a filter that lets you record screen activity using a video capture program. (You'll need your own capture program, but this shouldn't be too tough to come up with.) You might be able to coerce it into recording your movie into an AVI as you play it back.

Or you might end up with a recording of a big black box. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

As for the costly lesson, why not call them up, complain that you've downloaded their DRMed clips but now you can't rip them into files for sharing on BitTorrent, and demand your money back? What's the worst that could happen? 
:hanged:
- Jimdoria ~@>@

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who divide everybody into two kinds of people, and those who don't.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 01:40:30 PM by Jimdoria »

cmpm

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2007, 02:01:52 PM »
How old is the dvd player you want to play it on?

Newer ones can read most files, if not you can download upgrades for your dvd player.

Check the manufacture of your dvd player and see if there is upgrades.

Other then that try ripping the dvd with WMP and save it as a file that your dvd player will play. Learn what your dvd player can play. Save it as that type of file.

Or s-video it to your tv.

Carol Haynes

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2007, 02:48:44 PM »
cmpm you have missed the point - he wants to burn DRM protected WMP files to DVD.

The only way is to remove DRM first.

The only methods that have been developed to do that are:

1) Find an illegal copy that doesn't have DRM
2) Find an illegal utility that will remove DRM

If you achieve either of these you will probably then need some software to recode the video into DVD format so that you can burn it. There is plenty of software that will do this part - some free, some paid for.

The only utility I know that has acheived the removal of DRM is "FairUse4WM" do a google search if you want to find a copy. This has been a running battle with MS - various versions have been produced and then MS has produced a DRM update to counter the utility. I don't know whether the latest version works with the current version of MS DRM. It certainly used to work with audio and video files. Quality was not degraded as it simply removed the DRM rather than recoding the source. The reults were output to a new file so it didn't damage your original.

See http://www.afterdawn...ews/archive/7875.cfm for an overview of the story and http://www.afterdawn...ews/archive/7972.cfm. There have been later version produced since those articles but I don't know who is ahead of the game at the moment.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 02:52:12 PM by Carol Haynes »

cmpm

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2007, 03:10:55 PM »
So DRM is a protection protocol.

Just seems to me that if you buy something then it's yours.
All these companies coming up with their own rules.
Certainly an annoyance and uncalled for.

Without breaking copyright laws one should be able to do as one pleases with what one bought. For their own use and not be subject to limitations set by the developer.

Somethings really bite. Control and conquer and make millions from the ones that support them. An atrocity imo.

f0dder

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2007, 05:58:18 PM »
Quote from: Jimdoria
As for the costly lesson, why not call them up, complain that you've downloaded their DRMed clips but now you can't rip them into files for sharing on BitTorrent, and demand your money back? What's the worst that could happen?
That's pretty harsh, Jim.

The DRM Paladin is faced with is obviously limiting his fair use choices. Other people have had even worse situations, one of our forums members couldn't play back his HD movie at all.

Pirates aren't going to be hindered much by DRM... both HD-DVD and BluRay has been broken, the asian and eastern-europe copyshops have always found a way to do their dirty deed, and in the end it's only the legitimate end-user that ends up being punished (after which he resorts to bittorent to find a working copy of the movie he's already paid for).
- carpe noctem

Lashiec

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2007, 06:50:20 PM »
I would like to meet the bright minds that invented this kind of DRM, and thought it could be a possible solution to piracy, and a good idea as well ::)

Hirudin

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2007, 03:36:19 AM »
It is fair and legal to copy video to other media, audio too. Don't let "them" tell you otherwise. Breaking DRM is however illegal. I don't know all the details, but there's a provision in the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) that makes circumventing digital protection schemes illegal, no matter how much of a right you have to do so.

Carol Haynes

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2007, 04:11:21 AM »
It is fair and legal to copy video to other media, audio too. Don't let "them" tell you otherwise. Breaking DRM is however illegal. I don't know all the details, but there's a provision in the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) that makes circumventing digital protection schemes illegal, no matter how much of a right you have to do so.

Laws vary from country to country - in the land of the free just talking about breaking copyright restrictions can cause instant imprisonment without charge, trial, sentence, representation etc. and if you live in florida you will never be allowed to vote again (not that it means much when they fiddle the voting system anyway).

Here in the UK we are less draconian - having software on your system that could potentially be used to circumvent copyright is illegal (whether it is used for that purpose or not) and telling others how to do it is also illegal. Such 'crimes' are punishable by large fines and imprisonment and in extreme circumstances (like ripping a Simpsons episode) you can be extradited to the US (with holiday stops in Turkey and Cuba on private jets) to join their US friends.

Apology
Sorry if anyone is offended but does anybody really believe that individuals sharing copyright material REALLY finances organised crime and international terror - or are the multibillionaires running the 'entertainment' companies really that cynical


f0dder

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2007, 09:52:29 AM »
Carol Haynes: so, having OllyDebug and a (legitimately licensed!) copy of DataRescue's IDA might get you into trouble in the .uk? :P
- carpe noctem

Carol Haynes

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2007, 09:59:52 AM »
Don't know - but ISO buster might get you into trouble - even though it was designed to help recover data from damaged discs.

Jimdoria

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2007, 03:04:46 PM »
Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. I wasn't trying to suggest that PaladinMJ was interested in pirating the video clips. I was trying to mock the attitude of the companies that implement this kind of DRM. In other words, they ASSUME you are a pirate even when you only want to apply fair use rights to content you paid for.

I guess the sarcasm got lost somehow.

I also get frustrated by posts like this, because they make it obvious to me that there are people such as PaladinMJ and cmpm who don't know what DRM is and I feel like they really should know, but how does one effectively spread the word on something like this? Even here, where I'd expect posters to be fairly tech savvy, knowledge about DRM seems to be far from universal.

DRM is an abhorrent practice for many of the reasons stated. It deprives law-abiding people of their rights while presenting no hindrance at all to big time criminals. It's stated purpose is to prevent "causal" piracy: preventing "ordinary" people from copying media to share with their friends & family. Transparently, it's purpose is also about forcing consumers into purchasing the same content multiple times thus inflating profits. And with Windows Vista, DRM is sunk so deep into the operating system, and has its tentacles in so many different places, there's hardly anything you can do on your computer won't be subject to a tug on the string from some corporation or other.

I've read some articles recently that say that DRM is on the ropes, but as much as I want to believe this, I find the idea hard to accept. Corporations have been plotting and building and lobbying for years to gain this power. They are not just going to give it up. It fits in too neatly with the top-down command-and-control mindset that most of them use to govern themselves - the very essence of their existence. Power is hardly ever surrendered, it must be taken away - and the only way to do that is to all but eliminate the demand for copy-protected content.

But how can such a thing be done?  :o Most people don't care about "rights" or "large institutions versus freedom." They just want to watch a movie.

Actually, now that I think about it, I regret the message that I posted earlier. Everyone who gets bitten by DRM wants what PaladinMJ wants: a quick, technical fix that will just make it go away. As long as people think that such a thing is out there, for only the cost of a few dollars or a post on a message board, they're never going to feel stuck enough to wake up and realize that "go along to get along" only invites further and more severe abuse.

Well, I may not be able to solve the problem, but I can at least stop perpetuating it. I hereby pledge that I will never again offer technical advice for circumventing DRM, even in the abstract. The only thing of merit I said in my earlier post was that he should call them and demand his money back. Although I meant it as a joke, I realize now it's the only thing that will make the slightest difference in the long run.

So PaladinMJ, I'd urge you to call up Direct2Drive, complain vehemently that their copy protection is abridging your fair use rights, cancel your subscription (if any) and demand a refund. They'll probably come back with some blather about a license agreement or terms of service you agreed to when signing up for the site. Don't back down. You can tell them that these "clickwrap" agreements have never been held up in court (they haven't) and that recent federal court rulings have shown that one-sided, take-it-or-leave-it terms of service agreements are "contracts of adhesion" and are therefore legally unenforceable (which is also true). If you don't get satisfaction, call your credit card company and see if it's not too late to reverse the charges.

Don't say anything about BitTorrent though.  :-\ Oh, and take lots of notes, you might need 'em.
- Jimdoria ~@>@

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who divide everybody into two kinds of people, and those who don't.

Lashiec

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2007, 04:19:20 PM »
Suggestion: Use the sarcasm tag

Quote
<sarcasm>Bla, bla, bla</sarcasm>

Works really good. For now, the only thing we can do (unless we have the law in our side) is avoid these kind of "treats" (tricks fits it better), and have good hardware as well. And Vista DRM is AFAIK only applicable to HD optics, but I suppose it could be extended to other things in the future. FOSS? :o

Carol Haynes

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2007, 04:41:58 PM »
I thought Vista DRM was applied to all DRM material played on Vista - so that eg. you can't record the sound produced by DRMed audio tracks.

Have I got this wrong?

Curt

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2007, 05:38:10 PM »
My XP_Home is DRMtizied and I would like to test if I can record such a DRM protected (music-) file. Does anyone know where I can find one to download?

Lashiec

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2007, 05:39:20 PM »
One DRM-ed song or one program to de-DRM a song of your choice? (Weee, new words!)

Jimdoria

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2007, 06:06:44 PM »
Microsoft is working on several DRM schemes. The DRM embedded in Vista applies to HD content only for the time being. In other words, consumers are unlikely to be aware of the presence of DRM now, just after Vista's release, as it is currently only applied to content that is expensive, not widely available, and requires expensive hardware to play.

There is nothing in theory or in practice to prevent MS from applying this DRM to any content. They have already changed their marketing speak from saying Vista's DRM protects "premium content" to saying it protects "commercial content."

For the the best summary I have seen, check out A Cost Analysis of Vista Content Protection. Even if you just skim it, you'll see enough to at least furrow your brow. And as much as I love to point out how greedy and awful Microsoft can be, it's not possible to lay this monstrous infant exclusively at their doorstep. They're simply following the dictates of the content producers: the movie and music industries, which had been refining their particular blend of evil for a hundred years before Microsoft was even a gleam in Bill G.'s myopic eye.

Anyway, this is only one piece of their DRM strategy - applied at the OS level to what's generally considered media (audio and video). But there is also MS' copy-restriction in Office. This feature was added into Office 2003, but it requires an extra server component from MS and extra software installed on the client PC in order to implement. With Office 2003/2007 on Vista, this will not be the case, and as companies adopt Vista they will find it easier to implement end-to-end copy protection for documents, e-mail, etc.

So if you get into a legal dispute with your employer, or you decide to turn whistleblower on some illegal or other questionable activity at your workplace, you may just find that any evidence you've collected to bolster your case suddenly renders itself inaccessible when you try to present it.

So let's see, Microsoft's plans are to use DRM to lock down video, audio, documents, spreadsheets, presentations, e-mail... what's left?
- Jimdoria ~@>@

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who divide everybody into two kinds of people, and those who don't.

Lashiec

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2007, 06:25:42 PM »
Software, as I said, and you know what kind of...

Jimdoria

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2007, 06:44:37 PM »
Curt, if you've got Windows Media Player and a music CD, you can make your own DRM files. In WMP 11, if I choose Rip and then More Options.. I can click on the Rip Music tab and check the "Copy Protect Music" box.

Then what happens, according to the help file, is:
Quote
If you copy protect the tracks that you rip from a CD, the ripped files are protected, which means that media usage rights are required to play, burn, or sync the file. If you copy the files to another computer and try to use them, you might be prompted to download media usage rights for that computer. There are a limited number of times that you can download media usage rights for your ripped files.

Wouldn't know what this actually means, as I'd never use such an option myself and can't see why anyone else would either.  :huh:

Lashiec, locking out FOSS is part of the strategy as well. Check out the second link about content producers. "Good" hardware will be illegal to manufacture. (Actually, according to the first article I linked, you can't even get Vista to play HDD content at full 1080P resolution. The DRM-compliant components needed do not yet exist!)
- Jimdoria ~@>@

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who divide everybody into two kinds of people, and those who don't.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 06:50:09 PM by Jimdoria »

PaladinMJ

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2007, 03:14:58 AM »
well I seem to have set off a firekeg LOL. I am currently arguing with direct2Drive about my issue, have been through 6 "people" so far. I found a work around I ran a A/V cable from my video card to the TV. It works its ackward and a hassle but eh..

As for Vista, I know all about the new DRM tech hidden in it. It will NEVER go on one of my systems until I am not treated like A criminal that is already guilty. Thats MY feelings on it.

I realize and agree that artists and such deserve to protect their livelihood. Just don't treat me like a yet-to-be-caught-but-we-know-you-are criminal. It erks me and angers me. I've bled for this nation and damn it i'm innocent until proven guilty. Errr crap /Rant OFF LOL
When I have a mission, it consumes me; I will not be satisfied until the job is done. I have a strong sense of duty, and a strong sense of direction. Changes in the tide don't phase me - I always know which way the wind blows, and I know how to compensate for it. I get on poorly with people like myself.

PaladinMJ

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Re: A question about DRM
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2007, 03:21:42 AM »
Sorry if I came off a bit harsh. I wasn't trying to suggest that PaladinMJ was interested in pirating the video clips. I was trying to mock the attitude of the companies that implement this kind of DRM. In other words, they ASSUME you are a pirate even when you only want to apply fair use rights to content you paid for.

I guess the sarcasm got lost somehow.

I also get frustrated by posts like this, because they make it obvious to me that there are people such as PaladinMJ and cmpm who don't know what DRM is and I feel like they really should know, but how does one effectively spread the word on something like this? Even here, where I'd expect posters to be fairly tech savvy, knowledge about DRM seems to be far from universal.

Jimdoria: I agree everyone should know about DRM. And I infact do... If they had any mention of DRM being included in the files I would have made no request about removing it as I would not have supported the company.
HOWEVER D2D has since updated the page to include information about the included DRM. when I purchased the files, this part of their site and business was still "under development". I am usually VERY careful about these things.
I agree with you that people need to be savvy about their tech products and rights. :)
When I have a mission, it consumes me; I will not be satisfied until the job is done. I have a strong sense of duty, and a strong sense of direction. Changes in the tide don't phase me - I always know which way the wind blows, and I know how to compensate for it. I get on poorly with people like myself.