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Google in Sicko Storm - Welcome to democracy google style
tomos:
Situations like this can only be mandated by public policy (the merits of this mandate not withstanding), and is what is most commonly seen in most free-markets today. Often these regulations can be seen as protective and/or anti-free-market; but in a global market, there is no
way a consumer or even a significant sub-group can hold sway. It is only when the TOTAL market (or significant portion thereof) deems this to be against THIER values, does the "consumer" hold any sway over the corporation.
-steeladept (July 17, 2007, 08:54 AM)
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I haven't had a chance to read all this thread but I definitely will!
I hope I'm not repeating anything already said but felt I had to respond there -
I gotta disagree with you there Steeladept :)
Look at food -
Nestle who has always been one of the big bad corporations is now producing a lot of organic food - it's quite possible they're paying paltry wages etc., but the fact is when people want something, the big corporations (& everyone else) go and produce it or grow it.
Likewise, using your example, the less people who want something, the less companies produce that article.
Or, the less people accept the conditions under which something is produced, the more the companies will be willing to change work conditions etc.
Basically, corporations, politicians, etc. (individuals too!) do what they reckon they will get away with - I think they are a good reflection of what we accept as a society. In times when politicians are very corrupt, it's usually the case that people are fairly "corrupt" themselves - even though they might complain bitterly about the very same politicians...
steeladept:
I gotta disagree with you there Steeladept :)
Look at food -
Nestle who has always been one of the big bad corporations is now producing a lot of organic food - it's quite possible they're paying paltry wages etc., but the fact is when people want something, the big corporations (& everyone else) go and produce it or grow it.
Likewise, using your example, the less people who want something, the less companies produce that article.
Or, the less people accept the conditions under which something is produced, the more the companies will be willing to change work conditions etc.
Basically, corporations, politicians, etc. (individuals too!) do what they reckon they will get away with - I think they are a good reflection of what we accept as a society. In times when politicians are very corrupt, it's usually the case that people are fairly "corrupt" themselves - even though they might complain bitterly about the very same politicians...
-tomos (July 17, 2007, 09:16 AM)
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I am very confused by the example you showed, as that has no bearing (that I can see) on the moral values the market places on the corporation. Perhaps I am just not acquainted enough with the subject of your example. I tend to ignore most "organic foods" information as a bunch of high priced examples of an otherwise commodity item.
However, I do agree with your second paragraph that everyone (as a rule) pretty much tries to get away with as much as they can. I also agree that corrupt societies tends to be a reflection of the predominate culture of the individuals making up that society. The point of my argument was not to question such "corruption" but rather to point out the invalidity of the consumer holding sway over corporations either individually or in groups (unless it is a significant portion of the total market as stated).
I am not put off by the screening company making money because Michael Moore is well known as a producer of propaganda. His movies usually have a particular viewpoint that they advance fairly ruthlessly. Nobody considers them neutral or unbiased sources of information.
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Not to take this too far off track, but I have a whole city here in Pennsylvania I would swear considers this information unbiased fact! :-\ Back to the regularly scheduled programming.... :P
tomos:
Situations like this can only be mandated by public policy (the merits of this mandate not withstanding), and is what is most commonly seen in most free-markets today. Often these regulations can be seen as protective and/or anti-free-market; but in a global market, there is no
way a consumer or even a significant sub-group can hold sway. It is only when the TOTAL market (or significant portion thereof) deems this to be against THIER values, does the "consumer" hold any sway over the corporation.
-steeladept (July 17, 2007, 08:54 AM)
--- End quote ---
Look at food -
Nestle who has always been one of the big bad corporations is now producing a lot of organic food - it's quite possible they're paying paltry wages etc., but the fact is when people want something, the big corporations (& everyone else) go and produce it or grow it.-tomos (July 17, 2007, 09:16 AM)
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I am very confused by the example you showed, as that has no bearing (that I can see) on the moral values the market places on the corporation.-steeladept (July 17, 2007, 11:34 AM)
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well I was following in the footsteps :P of the Nike example -
shoes, food, it's all the one in terms of how it works
Whether you like organic food or not -
it seems like a big improvement on what Nestle have gotten up to in the past -
which isn't relevant here & I wouldn't know enough about it anyways to talk about it properly - rather the point being they are responding to peoples wishes.
In ways I'm saying the only "morality" brought to the table is by what people accept or dont accept in terms of behaviour etc.
You can try & regulate for that, but I still think it will boil down to what the people accept... and the less people accept something the less it will happen.
That's just my opinion* - I havent anything to quote to back it up and I'm no expert like some of the people writing here - but I believe it's a fairly fundamental "thing" (cant think of a more appropriate word :))
* probably influenced by having lived in Ireland in the 80's & 90's - a time of major corruption, in particular amongst developers & politicians - it wasn't the regulations (those in place were casually ignored) or lack of them that affected their behaviour...
steeladept:
I think your wording was perfect. However, I do see a fundamental flaw in the market examples. In the Nestle's example, a single product line was introduced to extend the market and fulfill a niche within the greater market. If that niche were to deem that it is completely unhealthy to eat anything other than organic vegetables and fruit, do you think that would stop Nestle's from making chocolate bars? Now, if (on the other hand) the U.S. Government were to make it illegal to sell food other than organic fruits and vegetables, do you think that would stop Nestle's from making chocolate bars? My answer is No and Yes, respectively.
In contrast, in the Nike example, the object was chosen so as to be (considered) globally repulsive. It is possible that Nike could recover by killing the line and using their existing funds to launch a massive campaign of repentance, but it would certainly slow and/or change the corporation. However, this would only occur because the market as a whole would be revolted, not just a segment of that market.
That being said, you did touch on one point of theoretical assumption I made. And that point is that the laws are uniformly applied and enforced, neither of which I can say has happened consistently in any government. However, most governments USUALLY do a fairly decent job of one or both over the long term and I would even say they may strive to achieve this. Or maybe I am just being optimistic... :-[
cnewtonne:
One of my biggest concerns about the world we live in is that the commercial marketplace has their hooks in every level of power in our society, and is set up to distributed advertising/propaganda/misleading information in an incredibly effective fashion,
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Mouser,
I can not, will not, and should not say it in any better way. I will not be political, I hate politics, and regret having done it one time.
I do not want to to tell this story fearing I will hijack your post, but believe me, I feel nauseous just thinking about it. For the past 6 years we lived this universal lie that is unparalleled not only in the history of this country but the entire world. Yet, I open my TV daily to have someone shove their lies in the fissures of my brain.
I grew up being told by my doctor and dentist that I must brush my teeth, gurgle my mouth, and wash my hands before I go to sleep everyday. One thing we are never told is that we should on An hourly basis open up our skulls and unfold our brains to its last crease and bleach it.
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