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Author Topic: Interesting: Tag2Find, Tagging for All Filetypes for Windows  (Read 15534 times)
XMinus1
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« on: February 13, 2007, 11:00:37 PM »

Hi,

 My newfound interest in Web 2.0 has awoken another interest:  tagging.  I'm not entirely convinced that tagging can, or should, completely replace hierarchical organization, but it certainly has advantages over traditional methods of file organization.  At first I was less-than-impressed with tagging due, in part, to the fact that I mistakenly associated it with social networking (like Digg), which I continue to have misgivings about.  I slowly began to experiment with tagging, and I eventually chose to use BlinkList as a bookmark repository, primarily for their tagging capability (although I think I've really only scratched the surface of BlinkLists's capabilities...).  I've really enjoyed using BlinkList:  tagging is much more freeform than hierarchical organization and therefore simpler to work with (in my case, at least).  Don't get me wrong, I still feel the urge to organize things hierarchically, but that urge has faded significantly.  I'm still keeping an eye on Yahoo's Beta Bookmarks, which has excellent features, not the lest of which is both tagging and traditional organization, both working together seamlessly.  Anyway, on to the real subject of this post:  I began to realize that tagging would have great implications for filtering/searching files across a file system.  I searched for, but was unable to find a utility that would do such a thing.  In the course of my studies I discovered that Vista incorporates some tagging, but only for certain filetypes.  I've also read that a Mac OS incorporates tagging, but Im not sure to what extent.  Then I discovered Tag2Find, and I've signed up for the 'Technical Preview" (but haven't been approved yet).  Apparently Tag2Find is the first tagging utilty for all file types on windows file systems.  I'm really excited about this utility, and I look forward to taking it for a test drive.  I knew that my fellow software geeks at DC would want in on the action too, thus my post.

I'll post impressions in the review section after I have a chance to play around with it for a few days (not sure when I'll be approved for testing, so the review might not be for a week or two)
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nudone
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2007, 01:48:36 AM »

'vista glance' by Konstantin Artemev supports tagging of any file. it's a bit like 'find and run robot'.

the tagging feature isn't perfect in that it's easy to break the tagging association by simply moving the file to a different location using explorer (maybe this will be fixed in an update).

here's the link: http://www.vistaglance.com/
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mitzevo
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2007, 01:53:29 AM »

Sounds great
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rainerschnelle
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2007, 11:48:54 AM »

I checked out a program called Tagg which looks interesting. I think you can tag anything with it on your harddisk.
http://www.taggtool.com/
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mitzevo
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2007, 11:36:36 PM »

So what's happening guys? Any more insights on tagging files? What about those impressions XMinus1?
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TucknDar
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 04:24:06 AM »

I just installed tag2find, and although I've only been using it for an hour or so, I like what I'm seeing. Can't give a proper review just yet, but it definitely looks a keeper! thumbs up
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mitzevo
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 04:30:44 AM »

tag2find looks good but I was at work when I tried it and my work computer's filesystems are FAT, and tag2find doesn't support that. So I tried tagg, and it seems to work fine with FAT filesystems  Grin

Guess I'll try tag2find on my box at home.
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justice
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 05:01:47 AM »

I recently read about FastCopy in the other thread about TeraCopy. FC has an option to enable copying alternate  streams (NTFS). Researching what this means, NTFS can store additional data which can be extracted only by a few windows commands (it's not backwards compatible). commandline Copy and echo support this, so do third party tools. However Explorer's copy does not (meaning if you copy or move the file, the data is lost -- maybe vista does this better?).

This might be the possible reason why these kind of programs work like they do, if they indeed use these alternate data streams. smiley
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:08:12 AM by justice » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2007, 03:30:24 PM »

"However Explorer's copy does not (meaning if you copy or move the file, the data is lost -- maybe vista does this better?)."

NOT true.
(Note: WinXP 's Explorer does copy and move ADS, on drive with NTFS format of course)

However, Total command (even the latest ver7.01 as of this writing) fits the above description. Ironically, its plugin can do a powerful search in ADS... sigh!

In term of handling ADS, I find xPlorer2 is the best explorer alternative.
Ironically, it is unable to search in ADS... sigh!

DOpus does not even has any column for standard ADS (tags like title, subject, author and so on). Ironically, it is aware of tags in MP3 files ... sigh!

As of today, I find no Explorer alternative utilty handles ADS perfectly and seriously... None! Sad That makes me feel lonely as though I am the only one in the world who use ADS to tag my files...

Btw, regarding FASTCOPY, I remember, not long ago when I try it, it does NOT copy ADS... and I can't find the option (you have mentioned) from the options list at the FASTCOPY site... ???


« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 03:44:12 PM by tslim » Logged
justice
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2007, 05:08:22 PM »

Download the beta (http://www.ipmsg.org/tools/fastcopy_beta.html)

There's two new options for ACL and streams.
The new help file says:
ACL Copy Access Control List(ACL) on NTFS
Stream Copy Alternate Stream on NTFS
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 05:10:07 PM by justice » Logged

patteo
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« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2007, 08:21:49 AM »

DOpus does not even has any column for standard ADS (tags like title, subject, author and so on). Ironically, it is aware of tags in MP3 files ... sigh!

I think you will find the column under description. And you can copy it too with Dopus which makes it very useful when moving files with ADS. (I think we are talking about the same thing)

In Dopus, go to Settings, Preferences, File Operations, Copy Files (Depending on Which Version of Dopus) look for a setting to enable Copy NTFS File properties (comments, keywords)

Also read in the Dopus forums - you should be able to find something there
http://resource.dopus.com...ht=alternate+data+streams
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2007, 11:30:21 AM »

Anyone tried HobComment?

http://www.dr-hoiby.com/CommentExt/index.php
http://www.dr-hoiby.com/CommentExtXP/index.php

Review at: http://www.freewaregenius...om/2006/12/16/hobcomment/

But I'm not sure about searching, though...
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Armando
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2007, 12:44:11 PM »

'vista glance' by Konstantin Artemev supports tagging of any file. it's a bit like 'find and run robot'.

the tagging feature isn't perfect in that it's easy to break the tagging association by simply moving the file to a different location using explorer (maybe this will be fixed in an update).

here's the link: http://www.vistaglance.com/

Tag2find uses a more appropriate way of tagging. Links don't get broken.


tag2find looks good but I was at work when I tried it and my work computer's filesystems are FAT, and tag2find doesn't support that. So I tried tagg, and it seems to work fine with FAT filesystems  Grin

Guess I'll try tag2find on my box at home.

tagg2find will most probably be able to work on Fat32 soon. Have a look at their forum and blog.
I also have some posts there.  http://forum.tag2find.com/

Tag2find works really well. If only it was already more integrated with other existing desktop search software and explorer. The next version will.

I, like several others, posted about tags in several places in he DC Forum

(http://www.donationcoder....ic=8605.msg62219#msg62219)
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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2007, 12:23:17 AM »

mm, very interesting stuff.. this vistaglance looks good.

tag2find also sounds like it is coming along nicely..
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Armando
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2007, 10:53:33 PM »

I recently read about FastCopy in the other thread about TeraCopy. FC has an option to enable copying alternate  streams (NTFS). Researching what this means, NTFS can store additional data which can be extracted only by a few windows commands (it's not backwards compatible). commandline Copy and echo support this, so do third party tools. However Explorer's copy does not (meaning if you copy or move the file, the data is lost -- maybe vista does this better?).

This might be the possible reason why these kind of programs work like they do, if they indeed use these alternate data streams. smiley

Justice : you're mentionning "alternate data streams" in relation to tagging/tag2finf, etc.?
Tag2find actually uses data streams + a database, and is able to keep track of filename changes, move, folder changes, etc.
 
Quote
We do not really make a very big secret out of how our tags are stored: at the moment they are stored in two locations: a system-wide tag-database (SQLite) and attached as Alternate Data Stream to the file itself (which is the reason why we can only support NTFS at the moment). Tags can be recovered from backup or the NTFS Alternate Data Stream in case the central database corrupts (which is highly unlikely). Alternate Data Streams are copied together with a file by Windows Explorer, as long as the target volume supports them.
http://forum.tag2find.com/ftopic85.html

A service is also constantly running in the background.
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justice
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2007, 03:01:33 AM »

Sounds robust, when I find a need for tagging I'll definately have a closer look smiley
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Armando
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2007, 03:14:20 AM »

Sounds robust, when I find a need for tagging I'll definately have a closer look smiley

I've installed/uninstalled it a few times : I'm just following the feature/performance/ui progression right now.

A "new generation" is coming soon with some very very nice additions/changes. I'm waiting before I commit anything to it...

I predict that it's going to be a really good tagging solution. The developpers are very active, nice, listen to feedback, and are not willing to lock users into some kind of ugly proprietary system in which tags would be... emprisonned. (?)
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2007, 03:35:34 AM »

I guess the issue I am having is when would you want to use tags?
There are photo organisation programs that I use already to adjust photos, my music player manages my collection etc.
If I have a series of different files that belong together, they probably belong under a project.
I think if files are related but not as directly to belong to a common folder, it might be useful.  But when is that the case?
When would I want to use tagging?

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iphigenie
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2007, 06:09:20 AM »

Filing things in folder is an incredibly time consuming thing - decide you want to change or split a particular project and suddenly you are moving things, dragging things. Constantly rearranging things. And if an item belongs to multiple categories or projects then you suddenly have a hassle.

I found my email handling became faster and easier when I switched to opera mail where you can use virtual folders based on canned searches, or setting an email to a "tag" by dragging it to a virtual folder with that tag etc.

I do the same with my professional email in outlook, using tags and having all my processed mail in a processed mail folder, then grouped by tags. Or you can use virtual folders as well.

I also switched my images from a topical tree to a simple date tree, and spent some time tagging. Now I use metainformation to find the ones about an event, trip, subject, style etc. and it is all a lot more convenient.

All of these work a lot better for me than organising by folders - the folders are now simply use as archive containers based on a processed/date system and I dont need to waste time doing this. It has saved me a lot of time and I feel a lot more organised - able to pick out an email from 3 months ago about a particular topic in a minute without even having to do a search - just by opening the list corresponding to the tag I know it will have.

I think I would love to do the same with my music files, and in the end all other files - PDFs, documents etc.
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2007, 06:21:57 AM »

I do wonder if some of the PDF/document management tools like Paperport or Presto!PageManager will start to have tags - I have an old version of each...
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Armando
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2007, 03:32:30 PM »


I think if files are related but not as directly to belong to a common folder, it might be useful.  But when is that the case?
When would I want to use tagging?

In my research projets, this happens... ALL the time.

I'm using the same articles for different papers, I'm grouping the same files differently in different folders — depending on the project. Right now, I’m using shorcuts or even hard links to do that : what a drag. Shortcuts are just really inefficient.

I'd gladly use Ultra Recall, myBase or one of these, but the fact is that I feel imprisonned in them. They force me to use their own search engine (when I could use the much more powerfull Archivarius or X1 to search ALL my files), they “semi-force” me to move back in forth between their databases and my normal folders (which sometimes contains huge files that I don't wanna transfer), they generally don't have a “file Explorer” component that's as powerful as the other file explorers that are available for normal file exploring (Total Commander, directory opus, Xyplorer, ), they don't have renaming capacities that are as powerful than the one proposed by other softwares (BRU, Flash Renamer), They force me to discriminate between information that “should be” useful OR unuseful (because the only information searchable in their database is the information that I've… transferred to their database), while I prefer to have everything available as potentially useful, they always try to do all kinds of stuff that's uselessly duplicating other software that perfectly do the job, etc.


So, right now, my “information management” system is mainly composed of

1.   a notetaking software  (EverNote, despite some of its limitations — see the notetaking thread) where I can store and retrieve tidbits of information that I wouldn't put in individual files -- what a mess would it  be

2.   a good word processors with good  formatting and outlining capabilities (MS Word — yes… I'm just so used to it and it's very powerful whatever people say —and Open Office, sometimes), for structured information, OCRed documents, etc. + Excell for tables, etc.

3.   a good software to display information and map ideas in different ways (mindmanager / freemind)

4.   a good renaming software (BRU / Flash Renamer),

5.   a good PIM (outlook — yes, for it's Palm synching abilities — + MLO… but I'm currently evaluating Achieve Planner ; very promising, but some syncing problems and a tad slow, it seems),

6.   a good desktop search programs for deep searches (X1, mainly, but I just bought Archivarius for the times when X1 will not work the way I want…),

7.   a foolproof naming system (well, almost... I like long names… smiley at least, they tell something precise about the file which is convenient for searching softwareS like FARR and locate… but long names don't allow me to use deep directory structures), and other deep searching software's like “Advanced Find and Replace” and “File Locator Pro”.

8.   a good launching and "quick searching" programs (Farr + Locate).
BUT, there are some component missing that you'll find in good softwares using some kind of "free-form" database systems (like Ultra Recall, Surfulater, AskSam, and even Evernote) : these are what could be called : virtual folders, file and folder "cloning" capacities (in some ways, similar to "hard linking" -- not vulnerable shortcuts that will become useless as soon as you rename or move a file, please!), easy tagging, etc.


So... comming back to what you said : a tagging system like tag2find could be used to create these so much needed virtual folders, and dependable links between files and folders (depending on the subject or the projetc). Right now, I put tags in my filenames, and while this is usually efficient, names can become absurdly long and it doesn't give any visual representation of anything (unlike to have a tree representation, or a mindmap, or tag clouds, etc. : the notetaking thread mentioned all the advantages of these representations and how they can always be useful depending on the situation). Anyway. so this is one reason why I still use folders (and try to use "hard links"), but it's far from ideal.

...Ahhh. I feel handicapped because I don't feel comfortable enough in English  thumb down : I'd have so many other things to say about tagging, virtual folders, the way NTFS is currently used to organize files and how it could be used (see the threads  on hard links, soft links, symbolic links, etc.). But probably nothing new though… smiley

Well… if anybody has anything to comment on the subject… of tagging I mean (virtual folders, data organization subject)...
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2007, 03:48:14 PM »

I do wonder if some of the PDF/document management tools like Paperport or Presto!PageManager will start to have tags - I have an old version of each...

Well, let's hope that tag2find, or some other solution, will soon offer to tag… anything!!!
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2007, 03:08:21 PM »

Some time ago I asked here if anyone tried HobComment, but nobody replied, so I tried it by myself. Just be warned: it collides with Hotkeyz, which is an essential program for me.

More, you can only add comment to one file at a time. At least for my needs completely useless.

And when adding a comment, the file's date is changed to current. Very bad idea.

It would be sufficient to use Windows Comments field in Explorer (using ADS) provided there's some easier way to enter the comments--the default one using the Properties dialog is too complicated for a normal use.

Anyone knows some app for this?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 03:11:21 PM by yksyks » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2007, 04:25:13 PM »

Tried Tag2Find sometime ago but, it doesn't cleanup after it's self real well.

yksyks, thanks for the HobComment never heard of that one.

To answer your question, if the comment field is accessible using Shell.Application than this may be fairly easy to script and interesting idea.
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2007, 04:36:58 PM »

All I managed to find about using the Comments column is the information that it's scriptable. Don't know how.

Anyway, in the meantime I realized that adding a Comment using the standard Windows Explorer Properties dialog changes the file's timestamp as well!  thumb down
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