Author Topic: Ripoff Britain strikes again ... this time with Vista Pricing (Read 14916 times)

Carol Haynes · « **on:** February 01, 2007, 07:05 PM »

I am not upgrading to Vista but I was curious to compare prices on both sides of the pond ... list prices according to Amazon.co.uk and Amazon.com are:

US: Vista Ultimate Ed ... $379.99

UK: Vista Ultimate Ed ... £369.99

At today's exchange rate that means that UK Vista costs $728 US .... so it is probably just about cheaper to hop on Virgin Atlantic and buy it in New York !

If I hop over to Germany the list price is 519.99 Eur (which is £314 UK / $677 US but I would have to learn German).

In Canada it is $499 CAN (equivalent to $423 US or £215 UK)

Apparently in Australia it is $751 AUD (equivalent to $580 US / £295 UK)

How do list prices (not the actual prices you pay) compare in other countries ?

Can anyone beat the UK price ?

Gothi[c] · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2007, 07:12 PM »

329,00 € in Belgium appearantly. Swim the channel?

nudone · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:37 AM »

does that mean we could get a friend in canada to buy it and then ship it over without having to pay extra duty when it got here?

like Carol, i'm not going to use Vista, i'm just curious as to what would happen - you could even buy it in canada and flog it on and make a profit in the UK. it can't be that simple, i'm sure.

jgpaiva · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2007, 03:48 AM »

does that mean we could get a friend in canada to buy it and then ship it over without having to pay extra duty when it got here?

like Carol, i'm not going to use Vista, i'm just curious as to what would happen - you could even buy it in canada and flog it on and make a profit in the UK. it can't be that simple, i'm sure.
-nudone (February 02, 2007, 01:37 AM)

Nope. That'd be illegal. It could work, as long as the border control didn't suspect about it. If they opened the packages to see what's inside, they'd make you pay good money for border taxes. (way more than you'd pay for vista in the UK).
This also happens when you travel. If you go to the states and buy yourself a new camera, for example, you shouldn't bring its package with you, or you'd risk paying way more than you'd pay for it in the UK. (of course this would only happen if they asked you to stop at custums in the airport).

Here in portugal, apparently you can find "MICROSOFT WINDOWS VISTA ULTIMATE 32-BIT ENG OEM" for 191€. But i belive that "OEM" means it can only be sold with a new computer.
The non-oem version goes for 355€.
What a rip-off!

f0dder · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2007, 04:10 AM »

I can't find OEM versions of Vista, and I think I heard something about Microsoft not wanting to allow this anyway (can't find any references though, so I might be wrong). Anyway, Vista price at www.shg.dk: Windows Vista Ultimate, 32/64 Bit, Retail: DKK3.899/GBP345.87. That's pretty insane.

Lashiec · « **Reply #5 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:39 AM »

According to the newspapers, Vista Ultimate costs 600€ here in Spain. And I thought it was too much money for a SO, but $728 is insane...

By the way, talking about Vista pricing, why is that during months people had been getting mad about Vista saying that with that prices they would make the switch to Mac and Linux, and claiming about evil Microsoft getting rich at people expense and all sort of nasty things, and nobody ever said: hey, we're talking about Vista RETAIL editions, not about Vista OEM, which, by the way, is a bargain, considering that for 7€ more than XP Pro, I can get Vista Business OEM and for 100€, Vista Home Premium, which includes far more features than old XP.

All things considered, Vista is not as expensive as people once considered. Heck, XP Pro retail costs a whooping 460€ here. The only Vista edition significantly expensive is Ultimate, and most of the things included in it are not exactly useful (although people would end getting it for the 'kitchen sink' factor

). As always, panic take control of everyone and after that, they can't see the facts, that Vista vs. XP is more or less the same thing as XP vs. 2000: too many hype, too many fallacies, and after all, is not a radical departure from the old thing.

Oh, and in my university, Vista Business costs around 2€: the cost of a DVD. Good MSDNA

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #6 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:45 AM »

does that mean we could get a friend in canada to buy it and then ship it over without having to pay extra duty when it got here?

like Carol, i'm not going to use Vista, i'm just curious as to what would happen - you could even buy it in canada and flog it on and make a profit in the UK. it can't be that simple, i'm sure.
-nudone (February 02, 2007, 01:37 AM)

In theory you can do that and if your friend is willing to declare the package as a cheap DVD or a gift you may get away with it. If it is all decalared properly the only charges you will incur will be VAT at standard rate plus a fixed fee from the Post Office for doing the paperwork (IIRC ~£5). There is no duty on software.

The full cost of a copy from Canada would therefore be about £260 after VAT is paid.

The only other issue to consider is that MS do not allow sellers in one trading block to export their products - which is why you can't buy the software on amazon.ca or .com and so technically you would be breaking their terms of trade. I am not sure if installation codes are serialised by country so that MS can check. The DVDs in the EU may be different to the CDs in the US as the EU has restricted some of the bundled software as a result of the antitrust hearings - whether that means the discs are different or you get a different install if you say you are in an EU country I don't know.

Personally I have no qualms about purchasing software from MS, Corel and Adobe from Canada because as far as I am concerned the restriction to individual markets around the world is effectively a restriction of trade and price fixing which I think is illegal. It is certainly illegal to have trading restrictions within the EU so you can save a bit of money by buying it from a Euro economy - so long as you can find a language version you can live with. I presume there are English versions available in France and Germany as well as the national language but you may find they are a different version and restricted to the update cycles of those countries (which tend to be much slower than the English/US versions available in most English speaking countries).

See http://customs.hmrc....tID=HMCE_PROD_009989 (it is a pdf file) which details the charges applied on imports for common items.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:47 AM »

I can't find OEM versions of Vista, and I think I heard something about Microsoft not wanting to allow this anyway (can't find any references though, so I might be wrong). Anyway, Vista price at www.shg.dk: Windows Vista Ultimate, 32/64 Bit, Retail: DKK3.899/GBP345.87. That's pretty insane.
-f0dder (February 02, 2007, 04:10 AM)

OEM versions are out there. www.overclockers.co.uk stock them.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:50 AM »

By the way, talking about Vista pricing, why is that during months people had been getting mad about Vista saying that with that prices they would make the switch to Mac and Linux, and claiming about evil Microsoft getting rich at people expense and all sort of nasty things, and nobody ever said: hey, we're talking about Vista RETAIL editions, not about Vista OEM, which, by the way, is a bargain, considering that for 7€ more than XP Pro, I can get Vista Business OEM and for 100€, Vista Home Premium, which includes far more features than old XP.
-Lashiec (February 02, 2007, 05:39 AM)

The reason I chose retail prices is because they are published for all countries by MS so they are comparable - other versions and special offers can reduce the price considerably.

Actually I think MS want people to buy OEM versions now because they changed the EULA for the full versions of VISTA to pretty much match the OEM EULA (and then backtracked a littel when there was a massive outcry). Whether people are technically entitled to buy the OEM version is another matter - they are after all only supposed to be supplied to system builders but many suppliers are now openly selling them to anyone who coughs up or with a nominal bit of hardware (like a USB cable).

tomos · « **Reply #9 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:58 AM »

@Carol, I have bought English versions of Windows here (Germany) - dont think there's any difference to UK/IRE versions.

I find the range of options here very confusing, never mind the range of pricing.
Some prices:

Spoiler

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Business Englisch, System Builder Version 66J-02289
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 148,75 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Englisch, System Builder Version 66R-00765
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 201,11 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Englisch 66R-00020
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 522,41 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate englisch DVD windows
, Plattform: Windows Vista No Operating System
0882224181198
Versandkosten: Gratis - Kategorie: Software 549,00 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Amazon.de

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Business Englisch 66J-00022
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 391,51 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business englisch DVD windows
, Plattform: Windows Vista No Operating System
0882224181228
Versandkosten: Gratis - Kategorie: Software 419,00 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Amazon.de

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Englisch 66I-00017
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 315,35 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Basic Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic Englisch 66G-00021
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 272,51 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Business 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version 66J-02373
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 148,75 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Basic 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version 66G-00660
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 94,01 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Englisch, System Builder Version 66I-00715
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 117,81 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business Upgrade Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Business Upgrade Englisch 66J-00023
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 260,61 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade Englisch 66I-00018
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 213,01 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Basic Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic Englisch, System Builder Version 66G-00576
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 5,70 - Kategorie: Software 94,01 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Basic Upgrade Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic Upgrade Englisch 66G-00017
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 141,61 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade englisch DVD windows
, Plattform: Windows XP Windows Vista
0882224181297
Versandkosten: Gratis - Kategorie: Software 229,00 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Amazon.de

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade Englisch 66R-00021
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 343,91 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version 66I-00788
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 117,81 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version 66R-00838
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 201,11 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business (ohne Media Player) Upgrade englisch DVD windows 279 €

I like the one at the end: "without Windows Media Player"

Lashiec · « **Reply #10 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:05 AM »

And people freaked out about six different editions...

Heh, I found curious that you've got to pay 19€ more for a SO without a multimedia player which can be downloaded and used free of charge.

Another thing, wasn't the 64-bit editions included in the same DVD as the 32-bit ones? Or are things different for OEM and Upgrade versions?

jgpaiva · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:07 AM »

Another thing, wasn't the 64-bit editions included in the same DVD as the 32-bit ones? Or are things different for OEM and Upgrade versions?
-Lashiec (February 02, 2007, 06:05 AM)

Actually, AFAIK, all the versions have the same DVD. But different keys unlock different versions. MS decided that the 64-bit version would not be part of the same pack of the 32-bit version.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:18 AM »

@Carol, I have bought English versions of Windows here (Germany) - dont think there's any difference to UK/IRE versions.

I find the range of options here very confusing, never mind the range of pricing.
Some prices:

Spoiler
MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Business Englisch, System Builder Version 66J-02289
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 148,75 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Englisch, System Builder Version 66R-00765
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 201,11 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Englisch 66R-00020
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 522,41 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate englisch DVD windows
, Plattform: Windows Vista No Operating System
0882224181198
Versandkosten: Gratis - Kategorie: Software 549,00 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Amazon.de

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Business Englisch 66J-00022
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 391,51 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business englisch DVD windows
, Plattform: Windows Vista No Operating System
0882224181228
Versandkosten: Gratis - Kategorie: Software 419,00 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Amazon.de

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Englisch 66I-00017
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 315,35 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Basic Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic Englisch 66G-00021
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 272,51 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Business 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version 66J-02373
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 148,75 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Basic 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version 66G-00660
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 94,01 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Englisch, System Builder Version 66I-00715
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 117,81 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business Upgrade Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Business Upgrade Englisch 66J-00023
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 260,61 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade Englisch 66I-00018
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 213,01 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Basic Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic Englisch, System Builder Version 66G-00576
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 5,70 - Kategorie: Software 94,01 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Basic Upgrade Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic Upgrade Englisch 66G-00017
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 141,61 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade englisch DVD windows
, Plattform: Windows XP Windows Vista
0882224181297
Versandkosten: Gratis - Kategorie: Software 229,00 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Amazon.de

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade Englisch windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade Englisch 66R-00021
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 343,91 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Home Premium 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version 66I-00788
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 117,81 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version windows
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate 64-Bit Englisch, System Builder Version 66R-00838
Lieferzeit: bis 5 Tage - Versandkosten: 10,70 - Kategorie: Software 201,11 €
(inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.)
Von Misco Online

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Business (ohne Media Player) Upgrade englisch DVD windows 279 €

I like the one at the end: "without Windows Media Player"
-tomos (February 02, 2007, 05:58 AM)

I love the fourth one "No operating system" .... $:-\$

tomos · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:21 AM »

I love the fourth one "No operating system" .... $:-\$
-Carol

missed that one

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2007, 06:22 AM »

Another thing, wasn't the 64-bit editions included in the same DVD as the 32-bit ones? Or are things different for OEM and Upgrade versions?
-Lashiec (February 02, 2007, 06:05 AM)

I think the full/upgrade versions come with 2 DVDs (32 bit and 64 bit) and the OEM version is just one DVD (so you choose 32 bit or 64 bit).

Certainly at Overclockers UK they are listed as OEM 32 bit and OEM 64 bit separate versions but all the others 32 bit (and info on obtaining 64-bit versions) in the box. Presumably the 64 bit version isn't being shipped yet although the OEM versions are available.

I suppose this makes sense because if you are building systems you only want to install a single OS - and most commercial system builders don't seem to supply an installation disc any more.

zridling · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2007, 02:27 PM »

Peter Herbert of Denmark alerted me to the high cost of Vista in his country this week (about $775!) and I'm curious to know, outside the US, How much does Vista (Ultimate) cost in your country?

Let us know, as I believe Microsoft is really screwing up over these prices, hurting Vista sales, and further luring users to consider making the move.

jgpaiva · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2007, 02:34 PM »

I believe there's already a post about this somewhere...

Edit

The two threads are now merged into this one. Carol

Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate 32-bit EN Retail: 185€
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit PT Retail: 199.9€

Those are the prices listed online, but on the big stores, it's being sold like this:

MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate 32-BIT EN: 699.9€
MICROSOFT Windows Vista Ultimate 32-BIT UPDATE EN: 439.9€

Blaster · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2007, 02:42 PM »

I have Vista for free... ;-)

Students in Montenegro can take Microsoft's products for free at the university...

For non-commercial use, of course...

But, i don't plan to use it...
I do not need OS which will "take" all of my hardware resources...

jgpaiva · « **Reply #18 on:** February 21, 2007, 02:46 PM »

Please do not transform this into an anti-ms/vista/etc thread.
I also get vista for free and won't use it, though

zridling · « **Reply #19 on:** February 21, 2007, 03:07 PM »

At €700, I get the feeling that not a lot of people will upgrade... or want to. Just my two cents, but Vista isn't worth it. Hold out for Vienna, as XP does everything that Vista will do, only cheaper and faster.

nudone · « **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2007, 03:16 PM »

amen.

zridling · « **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2007, 06:17 PM »

I sent a copies of Vista to two people already from the US: one was in the Czech Republic and the other Norway. Costs about $4 for international shipping. If you want it, I'll help.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #22 on:** February 21, 2007, 06:20 PM »

I'll have a copy for $4 - make a great coaster

Lashiec · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2007, 06:02 AM »

Zaine, this is totally off-topic, but during the last weeks I noticed no one is posting comments on your blog. I thought it could be that not that much people are reading it, but I tried to post something a couple of weeks ago, and the next day, it was deleted. Could it be that the spam filter you're using is blocking EVERY comment?

Referring to Vista retail edition cost, I still haven't found what's the real cost of Vista Ultimate (or almost any other edition). On the FNAC, Business costs 479,95€, almost 20€ more than when I first posted in this topic

Curt · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2007, 10:06 AM »

Get Vista for Free - Includes Free Bonus Trojan!

This BBC article sent to me (= Gizmo Richards) by (his) subscriber Brett Shand makes some very interesting observations about the number of computers now harnessed in Botnets but to me the most sobering point was the observation that "about 50% of all pirated Windows programs came with Trojans pre-installed on them." Most of the trojans of course would be stealthed so you could never detect them with security software.

Still interested in one of those Chinese copies of Vista floating around the P2P networks?

http://news.bbc.co.u...business/6298641.stm

- from "Gizmo's Support Alert Newsletter Issue 142, Free Edition, 22nd February, 2007"