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Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 8202 times)

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2019, 10:38 PM »

but then, i found this:
https://forum.zettel...imeless-zettelkasten
now this seems cool!!
this is similar to what the mac software "The Archive" which people consider a brilliant zettel software.  so i'm trying this open source windows version and it's FANTASTIC!  so i'll be trying this out for a while.  it's beautiful looking, it is true zettel and files are all text files, and it's fast, and its free and open source, so we can modify it!

I have not gone fully down the zettkasten rabbit hole, but I do find myself circling around to it often. I have seen a number of people compare this to https://www.zettlr.com/
As I understand it it uses a graph database, where each item is a container- so rather than emulating a "card" for each thought/note/idea,  it is a container... which makes it more friendly for storing other types of media.  It is opensource with Windows, Mac and Linux versions.

Similar programs I have been intending to look at are https://mindforger.sourceforge.io/ (I believe windows and Linux- though originally just Linux) and also https://github.com/zadam/trilium which is windows.

I personally really like it when there is a way to easily link to email. I can generate an email link, but would rather it was done automatically.

these are great suggestions.  i am going to try that first one and then the others perhaps.  looks fantastic.

dormouse, thanks for the tips.  it will take me some time to get used to.  ill check out that book, i believe it was the one you guys were referring to earlier in the thread.

Nod5

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2019, 04:40 AM »
I stopped using tagspaces.  Many times I have a blank screen; there's something in their electron application that fails at times- at least for me.  I even reinstalled and the problem was there.  I rebooted, tried again, and it worked for a bit, but stopped again after a short time.  I lost a lot of the work I'd done organizing with it when I had to switch, so that was a bummer.  Just something to watch out for.
Thanks. Good reminder also that a kind of system lock-in can happen even when all the data is plaintext and local.

The zettelkasten app alternatives superboyac mentioned

In my searches for windows software for zettel
[...] infoqube [...] connectedtext [...] sublime text editor [...] Sublimeless zettelkasten

also got me thinking... Question: Are there any attempts at standards specifically for (local, plaintext, spanning multiple files) notetaking? Something akin to https://commonmark.org/ for MarkDown but for zettelkasten note taking or some other note taking approach? With a standard users could start out with a Sublime editor plugin, later jump to a VS Code plugin and then on to some standalone tool. Teams working on notes together could use different software to read/write the same synced set of plaintext files.

(Picture in your mind the XKCD comic about standards. I don't need to link it, you all have it in memory  :P)

One thing a standard would settle is the identifier format. sublimeless_zk seem to use YYYMMDDhhmmss timestamps, which I like. But they have an issue tracker request for shorter format using other base systems for the identifier. Interesting idea!

A version of that would be to stick to YYYYMMDDhhmmss in plaintext but then have the decorator in the editor/plugin optionally display that as shortened via some above base-10 system. One could even go crazy short through some kind of "base-unicode" (is that a thing?) e.g. use all unicode characters (locked to some unicode version) as base. That way the first 100 000 or so identifiers would appear one character long.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2019, 05:24 AM »
Well, if I had another client that would actually use that format, then I suppose nothing would have been.  But moving to something else that doesn't do the same...  Not vendor locked is not the same thing as usable in another platform.  There's also the matter of the time spent color coding the types of files/folders.
I get that.

I restricted myself to the filename approach because I could access them by file search on any platform. I'm trying to avoid dependence on any particular software. Haven't reached the tagging stage yet, so I'm free to change my mind. SetTags is the only other one I know that uses filenames, though I expected there would be others. Can't say I've taken to TagSpaces or SetTags. I did consider simply using Bulk Rename and manage the tags manually.


Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2019, 05:30 AM »
One thing a standard would settle is the identifier format. sublimeless_zk seem to use YYYMMDDhhmmss timestamps, which I like. But they have an issue tracker request for shorter format using other base systems for the identifier. Interesting idea!

Bulk Rename offered me a lot of options when adding date/time to the name. Wondered why for a second; I didn't explore them. Maybe I should have done, although I like understanding exactly what it means.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2019, 05:39 AM »
ill check out that book, i believe it was the one you guys were referring to earlier in the thread.
I hesitate to recommend it. The useful stuff is scattered throughout the book. Hard work to mine it.
Much of the rest consists of him cajoling and hectoring students to take better notes the way he thinks they should be done. Very oriented to writing academic essays and papers. And the prose style reflects it: more heavy than light.

The first use for my zettel system was highlighting the relevant sentences and paragraphs, commenting briefly and then developing new thoughts as I reviewed them. Maybe that was his idea. Give people what they need in a simple single chunk and they wouldn't need a zettel at all

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2019, 07:39 AM »
Well, if I had another client that would actually use that format, then I suppose nothing would have been.  But moving to something else that doesn't do the same...  Not vendor locked is not the same thing as usable in another platform.  There's also the matter of the time spent color coding the types of files/folders.
I get that.

I restricted myself to the filename approach because I could access them by file search on any platform. I'm trying to avoid dependence on any particular software. Haven't reached the tagging stage yet, so I'm free to change my mind. SetTags is the only other one I know that uses filenames, though I expected there would be others. Can't say I've taken to TagSpaces or SetTags. I did consider simply using Bulk Rename and manage the tags manually.



With you re-starting this conversation around tagspaces, I tried it again.  Still the empty folder problem.  So I deleted my installation and then used a new zip.  It started working!  For how long, I don't know.  But it could have just been user error, though nowhere on the site do they say don't overwrite when you're upgrading.  I noticed that the interface is a lot spiffier than it was when I used it before, so perhaps that change was enough to make it a breaking change?

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2019, 11:06 AM »
I have topic notes which can be just lists of links to internet articles, links to my other main type of page (sources). Source pages are so I can either: save the article, save the bits of the article I like, or pull the article apart because I'm trying to understand it. The topics allow me to collect different sources. Sometimes my topics have been refined and rewritten, sometimes they are basic.

Makes sense. My usual webclipping into OneNote or Evernote works perfectly well and simply and there's no reason not to let it continue to function as my private hoard.
There's no reason I can't add things to my zettel that never get a real note. Available in text search, but can easily be archived if they start clogging usability.
I've also decided to add an annotated text folder. Partly because it is a stage in the zettel; partly because they may never warrant more processing.
And an Archive folder.

It's all about efficient workflow for me. If I'm reading a book or paper, I won't necessarily read all of it, let alone make notes. I see no virtue in spending time on it now for no short-term purpose when there may never be a purpose. What I will do is note what I haven't read or annotated, and why.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2019, 11:28 AM »
Programs I've selected so far include Bulk Rename, DocFetcher and Q-Dir.

Bulk Rename works very well, as i'm sure everyone here knows.

I've used DocFetcher previously. Portable version on same disk as the zettel. I can choose the folders I want indexing, and it will only be indexing when I decide to use it.

Also used Q-Dir before. I have Directory Opus and XYplorer, but I can see the potential value in having four listers open in front of me.

I've also put the portable Screenshot Captor on the same for clippings designed for the zettel. Will need to play more with how to use it. PDFs are very inefficient.

Of the taggers, I'm most likely to go with TagSpaces if I get comfortable with it (and it works). I tried to use the clipping feature once without effect (claims it is a potential replacement for Evernote).

I'm mulling greps.

For writing notes and documents, I'm happy to mix and match. I'm okay with Atlantis as my main writer for the notes with Jarte as a fall back). I'm writing a longer piece putting my thoughts together. And went automatically to WriteMonkey: the text folding is just so useful. I have the colour systems on all of them set up to be gentle on my eyes.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2019, 01:38 PM »
ok, i'm not going to read the book.  lol.  i just want to quickly learn how the system works.  I'm a little hung up on the one thought one note aspect.

I'm using folders purely as stages or components of the zettel. So I have one for sources. One for resources (stuff I have written myself that's a resource for the writing part - might be a setting). Another for the writing. And then the Notes/zettel itself. One might be about the purpose of a scene. Another might be about the style of dialogue and why. Each new thought has a new note.
yes, this is helpful.  I need some tips on how to begin this.

So you are saying:
sources folder: things you copy/paste?  like, you didnt write it yourself
resources folder: things you write or word yourself, but not the actual script itself
writing folder: these are the parts that end up in the actual script
zettel folder: im not sure about this...like, this is the intense analysis of the ideas for the script?

i dont know if all that makes sense to me yet.  I'll try it and see how it goes.

my initial instinct is to have all the notes in one folder, and let the linking and other content stuff link to the other notes.  but i also like what you are doing with categorizations.  not sure what the categories should be though.

so i just read some more about zettel, and it seems that using a single zettel for everything is recommended.  i'll try that.  and my real practice will be to stick to the one topic, one idea.  i do not yet know how that will turn out as far as a creative writing exercise, but i can see it working.  well...i do like your idea of using maybe a separate folder for writing aspect of it, that is, the final script where i am pulling things together?  i dont know.  but i heard that the zettel inventor would also write a lot of books.  so he must use the zettel to organize his thoughts, but i doubt he was writing the book in the zettel.  so i feel there must be some middleman staging area?  or not!  i should try and see.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2019, 02:27 PM »
I have a problem. My methodology means that hyperlinks are likely to be broken quite often when tags are added or removed. Changing methodology for tags means that the system won’t be independent of OS or software. I appreciate that there is no such problem for the users of the spiffy programs.

The unique identifier means I can easily search for the linked file(s), but that will be more work and more time. Maybe I can automate by sending the identifier to Everything through the context menu or an AHK script; not as much more work and time but still more. If text search and tags work faster and easier then I can see usage tipping towards them.

So how important are these direct links?

I know Sascha (zettelkasten.de) has attacked the value of one category of direct link (the folgezettel) and Daniel Lüdecke has defended its necessity. I can see both points of view.

I understand the value of tight links raised by kfitting. I believe these can be duplicated within a tagging system, but in usage probably wouldn’t be. Tags can’t replace the folgezettel.

All such questions have something unknowable at their heart:
How much did Luhmann’s precise methodology reflect the limitations of his technology rather than an ideal?
How much would my needs be best met by Luhmann’s precise methodology rather than a variant?
I think Sascha’s contrast between principles and methodology is an error. Anything Luhmann said about the principles of his system would have been an emergent property of his methodology. I don’t believe that his zettelkasten system came into being fully fledged as a result of his theoretical ideas; there will have been trial and error and his explanation of the difference between not working/working/best working will be the principles. And he never had the opportunity to try tagging or full text search.

I will be pragmatic. I will insert hyperlinks when it seems easy enough to be worth the time and effort. I will put parent hyperlinks a the top, child at the bottom and other links in between – when I put them in. If the links break, I can easily search and replace if it seems worthwhile.

I will also have a system to duplicate his Keyword Index. This detailed the numbers of a few key notes that were good starting places for explorations on that topic. The keyword will be the note name and it will have an Index tag. On the note will be links to the key notes for further exploration.

As an extra, I will have notes which simply contain links to those notes used in a single investigation, and they will be tagged as such. The methodology will be that I will put copies of notes I am looking at in a virtual or temporary folder; delete the ones that aren’t useful, and then copy the list left at the end as links into a new card; I will add a short explanation of the investigation and the value of this list of notes.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 07:26 PM by Dormouse »

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2019, 03:15 PM »
ok, i'm not going to read the book.  lol.  i just want to quickly learn how the system works.
I know. I did too. And I tried. But it took a lot of time because the book spread the good stuff in lots of other stuff that wasn't relevant to me.

my initial instinct is to have all the notes in one folder, and let the linking and other content stuff link to the other notes.  but i also like what you are doing with categorizations.  not sure what the categories should be though.

so i just read some more about zettel, and it seems that using a single zettel for everything is recommended.  i'll try that.  and my real practice will be to stick to the one topic, one idea. 

A lot of people seem to have different zettels for different projects.
But I only have one zettel for everything.
The folders are simply an aid to workflow. I need folders because all my notes are separate files. I need an easy way to decide where to put the files. And potentially, if it gets huge, a way to reduce the search parameters. They are also a way for me to know where I am and what I need to be doing next. None of it is an issue if you are using a program to do it.

All the academic zettels have links to references often in a reference manager. My Sources folder contains all the sources that I have used that are linked in teh zettel. So, I have a copy of the Ahrens book in there. Luhmann had one of these and I've seen it called his second zettel, but it is just a necessary companion to the actual zettel.

My Resources folder is simply an equivalent of stuff I've developed or written myself. Some are things I might copy into an individual zettel note, some might simply be references. For instance, my zettel might contain zettel notes about an experiment. In this folder, might go the dataset and the results. They would be linked to the notes.

Writing simply contains the actual writing. Includes outlines, drafts, first and second edits etc.

The contents of all of these are linked to the zettel, but aren't part of the zettel. necessary because I'm using files and the file system.

I also have a Temp folder - this is for notes I haven't processed yet - for instance they might be named, but not had the unique identifier added. Often they will be what Ahrens describes as 'fleeting notes' (ie temporary) - highlights or clips with very short comments from me. The next stage is to go through those and give them more thought; at that point my methodology is simply to add the deeper reflection on to the note and put them into the Annotated folder.

When I go through the Annotated folder, I will try to develop my ideas based on the combination of all the annotations. One idea, one note. At that point, I move the lot into the zettel/Notes folder, add the tags, and add the links (have to do it this way round or the links will be broken before I have even started).

i heard that the zettel inventor would also write a lot of books.  so he must use the zettel to organize his thoughts, but i doubt he was writing the book in the zettel.

Yes. he used the zettel to organise and develop his thoughts, but wrote outside the zettel. His notes were already written in appropriate language and it was easy for him then to rewrite them. Rather like putting Scrivener cards in order on on the corkboard and then tidying and correcting the writing in single document format. Adding anything necessary.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 03:20 PM by Dormouse »

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2019, 03:53 PM »
i do not yet know how that will turn out as far as a creative writing exercise
Won't be easy because you will have to work it out for yourself. Luhmann didn't do it and neither do the vast majority of people with zettelkasten.

As one approach, you could use the individual notes to write chunks in, like the Scrivener cards and then just put them in order. I won't rule out doing that myself, but it won't be my initial choice.

im not sure about this...like, this is the intense analysis of the ideas for the script?

Yes, from the first glimmerings of an idea, to ideas about contents, plot, characters, settings to comments and thoughts as the script develops. If you're doing a screenplay one note might be on pronunciation of a particular word etc.

Just the way I would do it, but try what suits you.

I'm a little hung up on the one thought one note aspect.

A zettelkasten is essentially about the relationship between thoughts and developing new thoughts by pondering over those relationships. If you already have the relationship between thoughts in a fixed state, there can be no gain from pondering the network of relationships. But you can define one thought however you wish.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2019, 04:19 PM »
thanks for the clarifications.
btw, zettlr is very slick.  I really like it.

this will definitely help me with my creative writing.  i did a quick glance at all my notes over the past couple of decades, and most of them have turned out to be useless (sad!!).  this zettel idea of forcing the links and ties between the ideas through manual writing would have been much more productive.

I also like the way you have split up the folders.  I'm going to first try a single zettl, and then i can see using what you are doing OR i can just stick to the single zettl and link to any writing done outside of it.

the thing I'm thinking about now that i read about, is this "entry point" where luuhrman would have an entry point note that links to the rest of that topic, but its a single place that gets you started on it.  can anyone provide examples of this?

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #88 on: October 31, 2019, 04:38 PM »
ok...how am i supposed to name the files?
the files seem to start with a 14-digit timestamp, and then what?
20191031103943 (topic number one).md

thats an example ive seen.

here's a sample note:
hewyc4rimuaq.pngI'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #89 on: October 31, 2019, 05:28 PM »
ok...how am i supposed to name the files?
the files seem to start with a 14-digit timestamp, and then what?
20191031103943 (topic number one).md

Is that the program?
Luhmann just increased the number by one each time, switching to letters when he forked.
Date/time stamp is just laziness; it's what I'm doing.

Since the date/time stamp is unique, you shouldn't need any other name. But it might be useful to give you some idea what's in the note.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #90 on: October 31, 2019, 07:07 PM »
the thing I'm thinking about now that i read about, is this "entry point" where luuhrman would have an entry point note that links to the rest of that topic, but its a single place that gets you started on it.  can anyone provide examples of this?

I have no examples.
But think of his technology. He had the card index with, presumably, many thousands of cards. Simply in a number sequence. He had a massive need to work out where to start when he wanted to look up a topic. So he had an index with topics. Ahrens explained it thus:
The first type of links are those on notes that are giving you the overview of a topic . These are notes directly referred to from the index and usually used as an entry point into a topic that has already developed to such a degree that an overview is needed or at least becomes helpful . On a note like this , you can collect links to other relevant notes to this topic or question , preferably with a short indication of what to find on these notes ( one or two words or a short sentence is sufficient ) . This kind of note helps to structure thoughts and can be seen as an in - between step towards the development of a manuscript . Above all , they help orientate oneself within the slip - box . You will know when you need to write one .
-Ahrens, Sönke. How to Take Smart Notes: One Simple Technique to Boost Writing,  Learning and Thinking – for Students, Academics and Nonfiction Book Writers (pp. 112-113)

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #91 on: October 31, 2019, 07:26 PM »
You will know when you need to write one .
Ah!  that does make sense.  ok.  moving on!

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #92 on: October 31, 2019, 07:27 PM »
ok...how am i supposed to name the files?
the files seem to start with a 14-digit timestamp, and then what?
20191031103943 (topic number one).md

Is that the program?
Luhmann just increased the number by one each time, switching to letters when he forked.
Date/time stamp is just laziness; it's what I'm doing.

Since the date/time stamp is unique, you shouldn't need any other name. But it might be useful to give you some idea what's in the note.
so i don't need to add the note title in my actual filename?  that would be nice, id like to avoid doing that and just let the timestamp cover the filename portion.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #93 on: October 31, 2019, 07:54 PM »
so i don't need to add the note title in my actual filename?  that would be nice, id like to avoid doing that and just let the timestamp cover the filename portion.

I think that's right. Try it and see if it's a problem.
I have names in mine, so I have an idea what's in the note when I'm just looking at file names. If you don't do that, I think they'd just take up space.

sphere

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #94 on: October 31, 2019, 11:46 PM »
I have not been able to follow along this thread as closely as I would like, but I am looking forward to reading it more closely later on.  Appreciate your sharing your exploration.

btw, zettlr is very slick.  I really like it.

Yeah, I like its user interface. It kinda reminds me of doogiePIM but it is opensource.  Out of curiosity, did you look at the others?

I have not gone fully down the zettkasten rabbit hole, but I do find myself circling around to it often. I have seen a number of people compare this to https://www.zettlr.com/
As I understand it it uses a graph database, where each item is a container- so rather than emulating a "card" for each thought/note/idea,  it is a container... which makes it more friendly for storing other types of media.  It is opensource with Windows, Mac and Linux versions.

Similar programs I have been intending to look at are https://mindforger.sourceforge.io/ (I believe windows and Linux- though originally just Linux) and also https://github.com/zadam/trilium which is windows.

I personally really like it when there is a way to easily link to email. I can generate an email link, but would rather it was done automatically.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #95 on: November 01, 2019, 07:03 AM »
btw, zettlr is very slick.  I really like it.

Yeah, I like its user interface. It kinda reminds me of doogiePIM but it is opensource.  Out of curiosity, did you look at the others?
I have not gone fully down the zettkasten rabbit hole, but I do find myself circling around to it often. I have seen a number of people compare this to https://www.zettlr.com/
As I understand it it uses a graph database, where each item is a container- so rather than emulating a "card" for each thought/note/idea,  it is a container... which makes it more friendly for storing other types of media.  It is opensource with Windows, Mac and Linux versions.

Although I'm going down a document route, I thought I ought to have a look.
Unfortunately takes a geological age to load on my machine. Otherwise looks interesting. I could probably work with it.
I saw a mention somewhere that it does text folding, butt I saw no commands for that.

Seems to me that it accommodates a zettelkasten approach but doesn't structure it, so you would still be on your own for organisation.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #96 on: November 01, 2019, 04:44 PM »
Yeah, I like its user interface. It kinda reminds me of doogiePIM but it is opensource.  Out of curiosity, did you look at the others?
Yes, I looked at all the links posted here.  Zettlr seemed to be the most mature, slickest, and most applicable for zettling lol.
the other ones were decent as well, but i didn't see a reason to pick over zettlr for now.  For example, the first one i tried...zettlr does everything it does and better sort of.  like, the line spacing would be based on the largest header size.  so if your h1 line size was huge, then ALL the line sizes were that big.  so that was a huge readability problem.  i either had to choose NOT to have any large font headers, or be ok with huge line spacing where like 10 lines fit on the screen.  i did not like that.
zettlr does not have this problem and has a similar interface.
the others, just didnt seem as nice.  There was one option there that had a really nice  hierarchy tree in the sidebar.  that looked like it would be better for general notetaking.  but overall, it seemed more geared toward general notes than zettls.
 
I saw a mention somewhere that it does text folding, butt I saw no commands for that.

Seems to me that it accommodates a zettelkasten approach but doesn't structure it, so you would still be on your own for organisation.

yes it does text folding with the headers.  very nice.
it doesn't do anything with organization.  you have to tag yourself, and make links yourself.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #97 on: November 01, 2019, 07:13 PM »
In going through the reading, I am surprised at how little we seem to know about what Luhmann did.
We know he read, and made notes on cards that he put in a card index. We know that he placed those cards in the card index by finding a 'parent' so that there would be a logical sequence. But how did he find that parent, if it wasn't the card he did before? Index and keywords? That's the only possibility I can think of. Then reading cards and links until he finds the right place. Could be quite a lot of reading presumably except when he was putting in a whole sequence of related cards. Feels inefficient.

Since we know he was highly productive, that suggests to me that large parts of his zettelkasten were actually active in his mind most of the time. Then finding the right place would be simple refinement. He'd have a good idea of where each sequence of cards went.

That familiarity is less likely with a digital zettelkasten. But we have text search and tags to compensate? Do they compensate? It will still work best if it is a relatively limited field that is being worked on at a time. like a PhD. Also suggests that the system did mirror his actual thinking and memory and that he would have used it to top up and remind him of things that might be fading in his mind. As well as being something he could use to develop thoughts and plan books.

But much of the time, the placement of a card must have been fairly artificial. He had to put it somewhere. Not waste too much time. The implication is that we shouldn't overworry about links either. Put them in when they make sense, have none when we don't recognise a genuine link. We don't need them for the system to work. But we do need the iterative reflection and note making.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2019, 07:15 AM »
Have done more thinking on Luhmann's working method.
I think he must have removed a chunk of cards to work on a topic.

Ahrens talks about card-to-card links from different places in the card index as being weak links. Implies consanguineous links are strong links. This makes sense - new cards are easy to place in a parent-child chain when following a single line of thought or topic. By definition the strength of the link in this related group is weaker the further away from each other they are. The 'weaker' distant note-to-note links are in a way more important because of the effort involved in making them, but they area different type.
So, working with new cards, he probably worked with them as a group and then placed them as a mini-sequence in the card index. He may have started his keyword index entry here (Structure Note).
Working on a topic, he found starting places with his keyword index and then took out a chunk of relevant cards. Made new cards for his new thoughts. Dug out distant and relevant cards as necessary (finding them from links already on some cards, the keyword index or his memory) and then linked added any useful links to them or the chunk of cards. Probably he would have updated Structure notes here if needed.

Difficult to do this digitally. Adding parent-child links doesn't recreate the family network. Tagging could work in theory but probably won't in practice and doesn't convey the strength of a relationship.
Structure Notes would probably work best.

Just my thoughts as I'm trundling along. Emphasise that I know little, in case anyone thinks I know what I'm talking about.
I need to get it clear in my head before I can work out a practical implementation. And that's about a daily workflow, not the programs or notes and, about how Luhmann used his system when he was thinking rather than how he wrote his cards.
You can see I'm still reiterating the process on the Ahrens book. When I'm finished with this I will move on to Schmidt's 2018 article ( here or here )
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 07:23 AM by Dormouse »

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2019, 09:57 AM »
The first thing I've noticed in Schmidt is that Luhmann's first kettelkasten (made before working in sociology) was divided into 108 sections by subjects, and that the second was divided into 11 top level sections and about 100 subsections.

And it seems as if the numbering is sequential within the top level section
This order per subject area on a top level is reflected in the first number assigned to the card followed by a comma (first collection) or slash (second collection) that separates it from the rest of the number given each card

I'm surprised not to have picked up on this before.

Sounds like folders. Or tags.

Also seems as if he started his second zettelkasten as a response to learning about better ways of working:
In 1960–1961, Luhmann spent a year at the Harvard School of Public Administration in Cambridge, MA (USA), where he attended lectures by Talcott Parsons, the leading sociologist in the field of systems theory at the time. There are no documents in the literary estate substantiating the claim that this visit was the trigger to start a new collection of notes, but the chronological sequence seems obvious.
-Niklas Luhmann’s Card Index: The Fabrication of Serendipity by  Johannes F.K. Schmidt

And he didn't shift his old stuff onto his new system - he simply started from where he was.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 10:22 AM by Dormouse »