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I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
Dormouse:
I've finished the Ahrens book. Making notes on the way. I slightly expanded the system I already had in mind, so on to the internet next to see if there's anything more to add.
I don't think I'd recommend the book. Too much exhorting students to do things the way he thinks is best. Too strong recommending his preferred software, with no discussion at all of disadvantages or alternatives. And the zettelkasten bits scattered randomly throughout the book. Too much focus on academic use.
It would seem that my system may not be a pure zettelkasten - there was mention of text only; I can see that Luhmann would have been text only, but see no reason at all why the system should require it. Also seems to be a tension embedded in the system between following a very focused, selective reading and note making workflow and having cross fertilisation from different topics. I think my system is better than the one he described. Naturally.
superboyac:
Interesting discussion... I've responded about zettelkasten in IanB's discussion on OneNote, but here are a couple of thoughts from loosely following this thread:
Having loosely followed the zettelkasten idea for a few years, I believe you're correct in noting that's a little more process oriented than tool-oriented.
Back a few posts there was some discussion about ideas vs facts. Don't know if you've read the post on the Collector's Fallacy: https://zettelkasten.de/posts/collectors-fallacy/ I find this very true and something I fight against continually. It is so important to collect why the fact was interesting.... and try to relate it to other things. A jumble of other people's text bits is meaningless to me. A file system of my own thoughts continues to show it's power, again and again.
I've "started" a zettel several times now, with tree-based information managers, with markdown textfiles, and now with Dokuwiki. My biggest piece of advice: just start capturing information, attempting to always write why you found the information important. Eventually, YOUR OWN system will come into being and things will flow more smoothly.
Random thoughts, I know, but hopefully something will prove stimulating!
Aside: the tagging discussion (and this entire discussion in general) reminds me of a debate about tags vs links. Here is a critique of tags:
"Tags are vague. They’re a very primitive way of spelling out how things relate to each other. A tag on a news article says “this article has something to do with this concept or thing”. But what exactly? A tag doesn’t tell you whether an article is a critique of a person, an interview with a person or whether it just mentions that person in passing. A tag doesn’t even tell you if the reference to Samuel Adams is about the person or about the kind of beer (which is why we so desperately need vocabularies). A tag can’t tell the difference between an event that merely took place at the local café and an event that the aforementioned pub actually organized." http://debrouwere.org/2010/04/07/tags-dont-cut-it/
Instead, use meaningful relationships (links with explanations). Some like to call it "tight" vs "loose" linking (http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2011/08/loose-links-versus-tight-links.html). With a zettel, you're trying to link things tightly, not just throw things into your garage randomly.
-kfitting (October 27, 2019, 12:27 PM)
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super interesting post, kfitting, thanks.
I understand now. This sounds like the problem of hoarding, only with digital/text things. I struggle with this also, and i see the value in being able to break away from it. This has made me once again interested in zettel, lol. I have just collected a bunch of notes, but why? do i use them? not most of them. what's the point? yes they come in handy occasionally, but most of it is a waste and I'd rather have actual growth in knowledge in myself than be comforted by all the notes i physically have. hmmm.....
superboyac:
and now with Dokuwiki.
-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)
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you ever considered ConnectedText?
superboyac:
i am interested in NOT being a knowledge hoarder. I want to be a practical, productive individual.
I'm going to give ConnectedNotes a shot and see if it helps me organize my notetaking process.
Onenote will still remain in my system as a big dump of things i collect. But if I change my approach, i can see using onenote less.
I use MLO for tasks, so those aren't really notes.
I also use the Journal (davidrm) for writing purposes. If I have to write a story or screenplay or something organized like that, I will do it in the journal as it's less about collecting notes, and more about making progress each day.
All very interesting. The main point with me is I really dont want to be a hoarder, I am disturbed by the idea.
Dormouse:
This sounds like the problem of hoarding, only with digital/text things. I struggle with this also, and i see the value in being able to break away from it. -superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)
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i am interested in NOT being a knowledge hoarder. I want to be a practical, productive individual.-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:48 AM)
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I'd rather have actual growth in knowledge in myself than be comforted by all the notes i physically have. hmmm.....
-superboyac (October 29, 2019, 11:35 AM)
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I think that some of the key zettel principles for this are:-
* That you have a single integrated workflow, that you become expert in using
* That notes have to sustain repeated iterative processing, potentially with new notes for new thoughts. If information/thoughts/notes aren't worth this degree of processing, then they don't deserve to be in the zettel.
* The processing should produce growth in your understanding, but will also duplicate that understanding in the zettel
* Which means that you can go away from that part of the zettel for ten years and still pick up from where you left off, long after you will have forgotten most of the detail of what you had learned
The problem I see in what you are suggesting is that you will be following multiple workflows.
I can't see why you couldn't use ConnectedText, OneNote or The Journal for all your writing and a zettel
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