topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • December 13, 2019, 11:09 PM
  • Proudly celebrating 13 years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 20731 times)

TaoPhoenix

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2011
  • **
  • Posts: 4,639
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #175 on: November 16, 2019, 02:46 PM »
That notes have to sustain repeated iterative processing, potentially with new notes for new thoughts. If information/thoughts/notes aren't worth this degree of processing, then they don't deserve to be in the zettel.

This bothers me. Maybe I haven't worked out the implications here but scattered as they are, when I get creative sometimes the notes don't stop, so I feel I have to just slam them into a folder or something as fast as I can. Otherwise, I'll rarely create that pathway again without a starting point.

In some sense, with a starting point or three, (because the temporally related things are in the folder), I can often find new versions of what I was thinking at that time, but it needs the sand in the mussel to create the pearl again. Misc examples:

- 'Orphan Drug' - A medicine that needs agency or special finding to develop because the free market factors don't favor it being commercially viable. Typically it's for rare conditions. 

- 'Rose Garden' Presidential campaign strategies.  Instead of Kissing Babies, the incumbent President of the US instead performs more Presidential duties themselves, such as an extra visit to meet foreign leaders. Pseudo dialog: "Instead of Kissing Babies, I'm trying to negotiate relief funding for bad weather damage in the Netherlands".


TaoPhoenix

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2011
  • **
  • Posts: 4,639
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #176 on: November 16, 2019, 03:01 PM »
I also have a Temp folder - this is for notes I haven't processed yet - for instance they might be named, but not had the unique identifier added. Often they will be what Ahrens describes as 'fleeting notes' (ie temporary) - highlights or clips with very short comments from me. The next stage is to go through those and give them more thought; at that point my methodology is simply to add the deeper reflection on to the note and put them into the Annotated folder.

When I go through the Annotated folder, I will try to develop my ideas based on the combination of all the annotations. One idea, one note. At that point, I move the lot into the zettel/Notes folder, add the tags, and add the links (have to do it this way round or the links will be broken before I have even started).

This is starting to get close to what I have tried to explore in this thread. Items like a Rose Garden Presidential strategy have no particular importance for me, so they'll sit in Tempo for the better side of forever.

Then other things like nice new music groups START in the tempo folder, but then the undeclared idea is that some day with six hours to spare, they'll get more fleshed out into their own folder, which tends to be closer to your Annotated level if they get out of the monthly "temp" batches.

New question - I have a nice time making quick mods of music files. So if I start with a song in mp3, sometimes I fiddle with the pitch and tempo or both. So the file name itself has some of the adjustment settings compared to the original, to indicate how it was created. It's not a text tag, it's instructions. How does that fit into your system?

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #177 on: November 16, 2019, 03:06 PM »
One project I tried was to build a "Super text processor" that had all these custom things it could do. So for example if your "main copy" is in RTF, the Super Processor could have native built in "create pure text shadow copy" which you could then parse, get something out of it, and then you paste it back into your RTF copy. Then instead of saving entire files as text, because you only need it for 10 minutes, it's still in the main Super Processor, then it goes away. My text file chess example is right down this alley, though there's gaming examples from my Ludum Dare adventures too.

That sounds very interesting. When it comes to it, text translates poorly into spoken language - and vice versa - let alone more visual and conceptual ideas. Reminds me that I must install InfoQube and see exactly what it does now, and how it does it. It certainly gives me a very Borgish vibe.

TaoPhoenix

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2011
  • **
  • Posts: 4,639
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #178 on: November 16, 2019, 03:06 PM »
The need to read selectively is emphasised repeatedly.
I can't help thinking that it's an attempt to make a virtue of a necessity because there's no way this process can be followed with very fast extensive reading.

I'm sure it will get quicker and easier with practice!???

This feels like my fundamental conceptual clash!
A chunk of time can be spent either deep refining existing notes, or you can ... read new things, which automatically create new ideas! How do you decide NOT to read something?!


TaoPhoenix

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2011
  • **
  • Posts: 4,639
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #179 on: November 16, 2019, 03:08 PM »

Hi Dormouse!

I'm glad you like a few of my ideas!
And see the speed I'm drilling out replies to the thread, when today was right to "Fire Up!"

MOAR IDEAS! :)

TaoPhoenix

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2011
  • **
  • Posts: 4,639
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #180 on: November 16, 2019, 03:15 PM »
Bleh - Humorously relevant!
I just did my big Windows update and not all browsers retain the tabs from session when "closed improperly"!

And for other reasons, I forgot to save a "temp note" about the web browser Deozaan was talking about for several years in another thread, with a Chrome-like backbone but some privacy features!

Update:
Google Advanced, in my particular instance, has for years been irritating in that "include all these words" ... arbitrarily drops words and then spins back useless results!

So I did something even fancier and got it - Brave browser.
Perfect example of a former Temp note, (mostly in my head) into Annotated, because now I have to reread the thread and figure out again why I didn't wholly like it the first time. But today now I believe I needed it, so sometimes notes need to be reviewed if your opinion of the thought might have changed!

http://www.donationc...x.php?topic=42239.25

Update 2: Brave Ads, Tor, and more.
I don't need any of that. I just need a new browser close to Chrome, that ISN'T Chrome!
In fact, it's going to make me nearly deprecate Chrome locally, until I am dragged into using it!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 03:25 PM by TaoPhoenix »

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #181 on: November 16, 2019, 03:21 PM »
if I start with a song in mp3, sometimes I fiddle with the pitch and tempo or both. So the file name itself has some of the adjustment settings compared to the original, to indicate how it was created. It's not a text tag, it's instructions. How does that fit into your system?

I think it fits fine. The Temp folder is intended purely as a waystation. Possibly i should have called it Pending. If there needs to be another stage, then I would stick in another folder - Pending2 say. That's what you're doing. You start with something, think about it and record what you have done.

The Temp folder really does have to work as temporary storage thought. Can't afford to clog up. So you would probably need to set up a Not Very Interesting Archive folder for your Rose Garden Presidential strategy. And you could tag it with a No Entry sign.

TaoPhoenix

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2011
  • **
  • Posts: 4,639
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #182 on: November 16, 2019, 03:30 PM »
I think it fits fine. The Temp folder is intended purely as a waystation. Possibly i should have called it Pending. If there needs to be another stage, then I would stick in another folder - Pending2 say. That's what you're doing. You start with something, think about it and record what you have done.

The Temp folder really does have to work as temporary storage thought. Can't afford to clog up. So you would probably need to set up a Not Very Interesting Archive folder for your Rose Garden Presidential strategy. And you could tag it with a No Entry sign.

Hm.
For years, "All things are temp equal, until they get promoted!" :)

But this is also interesting to fast and dirty trim DOWN "not very interesting", which might be close to that problem I've wrestled with and explored in this thread, where things like my sound editing knowledge needs to be refined and always on tap, medium things sit there *by definition* they survived the "Not Interesting Culling", *so there had to be a reason why*, THEN when something like today kicks an item into high gear, THEN it gets promoted!

Fascinating! Because as simple as Drag into the Wasteland, you can cull some 30 items out of 50 out of the bimonthly batches, and then very erratically, that serves the purpose of that "you forgot it was there" part of the zettel that I struggled with.


TaoPhoenix

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2011
  • **
  • Posts: 4,639
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #183 on: November 16, 2019, 03:34 PM »
Oh, IDEA!



Besides dealing with that unique identifier, the Precise Date in Filename automatically tells you how OLD the note is, so for example I haven't read that Brave thread for 2-3 weeks, so this is my chance to see what changed on that side apart from my opinions!

The idea is "implicit metadata", the other one being just now "this survived the Wasteland, do I want to work on this today?"  :)


Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #184 on: November 16, 2019, 03:36 PM »
This feels like my fundamental conceptual clash!
A chunk of time can be spent either deep refining existing notes, or you can ... read new things, which automatically create new ideas!

True, and true. But the method is intended to put your ideas in a form that be quickly understood by you if you revisit, and making sure that they're available instead of vanished ephemera.

How do you decide NOT to read something?!

I find it simple:
  • I like thinking more
  • I have something like 2000 unread books on my kindle, apart from those on my bookshelves. My problem is deciding what TO read.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #185 on: November 16, 2019, 03:50 PM »
But this is also interesting to fast and dirty trim DOWN "not very interesting", which might be close to that problem I've wrestled with and explored in this thread, where things like my sound editing knowledge needs to be refined and always on tap, medium things sit there *by definition* they survived the "Not Interesting Culling", *so there had to be a reason why*, THEN when something like today kicks an item into high gear, THEN it gets promoted!

Fascinating! Because as simple as Drag into the Wasteland, you can cull some 30 items out of 50 out of the bimonthly batches, and then very erratically, that serves the purpose of that "you forgot it was there" part of the zettel that I struggled with.

I think that's true. But my Temp folder is outside the zettel. It's part of the path in which is why I can't afford to clog it.
From the sound of it, yours made it through and it had links because you were able to go back to it. Most of a zettel won't be interesting most of the time and much of it maybe never. But it's still there and available.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #186 on: November 16, 2019, 03:56 PM »
Besides dealing with that unique identifier, the Precise Date in Filename automatically tells you how OLD the note is

Exactly! And puts it into a temporal context of other notes from that time enabling a wetware link.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #187 on: November 16, 2019, 04:12 PM »
Apropos of not very much, though it was one of the places this journey started, I downloaded my Evernote archive today, in triplicate. The notes go back over a decade. And I had the local version before that.

The panic over its mortality seems to have abated. And I still like some of its features, especially the webclipper.
I like the Android app. Probably the iOS one too, though it's ages since I used it.
But I truly hate the web app. I find it hard to read the notes for some reason, and the background contrast between the left panel and the rest hurts my eyes.
I like the Windows desktop version, but the beta looks just like the web app, so the writing is on the wall for me.

I'll have a look at Notion, though the reviews suggest it's not for me. I read that it can do a direct import from your Evernote account (though I'm really not sure I'd want to give it my login details) and that you can export from Notion in markdown format.

Tried Notion. Very odd interface. If you're not a square peg, surrounded by other square pegs in a big square hole then I don't see how it can suit. And it doesn't work. Tried the webclipper twice; both times it copied the top quarter of the page and then stopped - and it's supposed to be the whole page or nothing because it offers no options.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 06:08 PM by Dormouse »

TaoPhoenix

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2011
  • **
  • Posts: 4,639
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #188 on: November 16, 2019, 04:47 PM »
More fun!
This time it's an In Browser Mini Mindmap!
So when you mind is spinning, and maybe even before you can create a zillion text notes per idea, you can capture enough of the brainstorm that you can annotate it later!

https://chrome.googl...aenklhejcbmlkonbakjj


tomos

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,523
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #189 on: November 16, 2019, 04:58 PM »
Probably relevant (apologies if already mentioned) -- Armando's description of how he uses tag in filenames, in particular the first post here
How do you tag (or even organize) your files? and here
Tom

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #190 on: November 16, 2019, 06:47 PM »
Probably relevant (apologies if already mentioned) -- Armando's description of how he uses tag in filenames,

Thanks.
Very interesting threads. I might have known that Armando would have had something to say on the subject.
Very interesting that I went round the same circles reaching the same conclusions for the same reasons. And that the alternative, lower effort, approaches discussed have since expired. And quite a lot in common with Swords approach. And their approaches are as valid now as they were then. And in the midst of all the software deaths, InfoQube is still going!

Luckily my need is smaller, I'm not trying to manage all my files. I'm avoiding the need for frequent or bulk renaming after the file has been set up. The files I'm tagging will mostly be thoughts; sources will be linked rather than tagged. And the direct links reduce the pressure on the tags for organisation. And the text search will be much more functional because it will only target the notes, not the sources.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 07:28 PM by Dormouse »

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #191 on: November 18, 2019, 02:47 PM »
Saw on the latest InfoQube update how it was easy to set up 2 way links. Knew it could import Evernote export files. So tried. Three times. Always failed.

Then turned to the, no longer supported, OneNote importer. Seems to be chugging away quite happily.

I'm not necessarily giving up Evernote, but I did want to safeguard my data.
One advantage of using a very big, well known product is that there are usually options for transferring out of their database should the need arise.

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,184
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #192 on: November 18, 2019, 03:11 PM »
Dormouse, you just gave me another idea...

I was about to start just writing random notes, which I've been doing.  I'm having a hard time getting to that one note one thought discipline.  I have several notes that are like many thoughts...like, they're each whitepapers essentially.

Anyway, since this is the way ALL my notes are currently.  What I'm going to do is convert them all out of their respective programs (evernote, IQ, etc.) and then bring them into some temporary area for zettlr.  THen, I'll proceed to curating these to those single notes and thoughts.  Let's see if I can hang with that.

It's almost like working backwards.  I'm taking my prewritten/compiled writings, and breaking it into single thoughts?  Weird.  But I feel this excercise will at least get me used to using the system.  I still see value in this.  As i mentioned, I feel like i don't ever use my previous notes, not because they are not good, but because they are just dumped into these systems and they just sit there.  there's not activity around them.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #193 on: November 18, 2019, 03:14 PM »
I've provisionally decided on my initial tagging system. Tags in file name and body of file. Any tagging during use will go into the Tagspaces sidecar.

Seven tag fields.
a) Main area of interest (eg Chinese history) + two specific (eg Ming + Beijing). Easy to add extra specifics in there appears to be a need.
b) More notebased:
type of zettelkasten (eg Structure Note)
type of thought (eg observation)
purposefunction of thought (eg weigh different explanations)
c) Project (eg build garage)

An example might be:
#maFood, #sp1Fish, #znStg3, #sp2Herbs, #thMsen #fuDeci, #prReci
Which is simply recording the mental consideration of the different herbs that might be used in a recipe for cooking trout.
The actual success of the match could be recorded in a subsequent note.
There's an assumption that the simpler issues would have been covered in Stage 1 or Stage 2 notes.

The idea is simply to maximise the filtering power of the tags.
Very detailed content would be found through text search.

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,184
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #194 on: November 18, 2019, 03:20 PM »
boy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr.  You can open items using "Quicklook".  They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like.  Pretty damn nice.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 03:39 PM by superboyac »

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #195 on: November 18, 2019, 03:54 PM »
I'm going to do is convert them all out of their respective programs (evernote, IQ, etc.) and then bring them into some temporary area for zettlr.  THen, I'll proceed to curating these to those single notes and thoughts.  Let's see if I can hang with that.

I'm taking my prewritten/compiled writings, and breaking it into single thoughts? 

I think you are right.
But also potentially wrong.

If I've taken an excerpt from a publication, my first notes may cover more than one thought (because the source is mixing a few things). The second stage will be in single, separated thoughts. But I still keep the earlier ones.

BUT there's a real question of efficiency and sustainability. There's no point spending time chopping a carrot unless you have an idea what you are going to do with the pieces; if you don't know, leave the carrot as it is. Create connections so that you can go back and find it to chop when you know what you want to do with it.

I think there's a permanent tension between the reflecting and chopping on the one side and working comfortably and efficiently on the other. And some of that is resolved by not spending extra time going through things that are not of much immediate interest.

I'm trying to get into the swing by writing a little article. This makes it easier to make a decision about what's worth working on and what isn't.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #196 on: November 18, 2019, 04:07 PM »
boy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr.  You can open items using "Quicklook".  They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like.  Pretty damn nice.

You can do this with separate files too  ;D

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,184
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #197 on: November 18, 2019, 04:56 PM »
boy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr.  You can open items using "Quicklook".  They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like.  Pretty damn nice.

You can do this with separate files too  ;D
loooooooooool
yes...well....nothing  ;)

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,184
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #198 on: November 18, 2019, 04:57 PM »
I'm going to do is convert them all out of their respective programs (evernote, IQ, etc.) and then bring them into some temporary area for zettlr.  THen, I'll proceed to curating these to those single notes and thoughts.  Let's see if I can hang with that.

I'm taking my prewritten/compiled writings, and breaking it into single thoughts? 

I think you are right.
But also potentially wrong.

If I've taken an excerpt from a publication, my first notes may cover more than one thought (because the source is mixing a few things). The second stage will be in single, separated thoughts. But I still keep the earlier ones.

BUT there's a real question of efficiency and sustainability. There's no point spending time chopping a carrot unless you have an idea what you are going to do with the pieces; if you don't know, leave the carrot as it is. Create connections so that you can go back and find it to chop when you know what you want to do with it.

I think there's a permanent tension between the reflecting and chopping on the one side and working comfortably and efficiently on the other. And some of that is resolved by not spending extra time going through things that are not of much immediate interest.

I'm trying to get into the swing by writing a little article. This makes it easier to make a decision about what's worth working on and what isn't.
i see why you have that sources resources folders.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,286
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #199 on: November 18, 2019, 05:15 PM »
boy it would be really nice to be able to view multiple notes simultaneously somehow.
You can actually do this with zettlr.  You can open items using "Quicklook".  They open in a separate window, you can open as many as you like and just place them wherever you like.  Pretty damn nice.
You can do this with separate files too  ;D
loooooooooool
I do admit that the database solutions are likely to be both easier and faster than separate files. Including, I'm sure, viewing multiple notes. I can feel the temptation.
But I'm determined to lie on the bed that I'm making. Even if it is made of many separate nails rather than a comfortable mattress.