topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • October 21, 2018, 02:03 PM
  • Proudly celebrating 13 years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Author Topic: What's going on with Java?  (Read 1504 times)

tomos

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,319
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
What's going on with Java?
« on: April 28, 2018, 05:01 AM »
So, what's going on with Java?
Updated Java and got shown this page:

Oracle Java SE 8 Release Updates

Public updates for Oracle Java SE 8 will remain available for individual, personal use through at least the end of 2020.

Public updates for Oracle Java SE 8 released after January 2019 will not be available for business, commercial or production use without a commercial license.

If you are a CONSUMER using Java for individual, personal use, you will continue to have the same access to Oracle Java SE 8 updates as you do today through at least the end of 2020. In most instances, the Java-based applications you run are licensed separately by a company other than Oracle (for example, games you play on your PC are likely developed by a gaming company). These applications may run on the Java platform and be dependent on Oracle Java SE 8 updates beyond 2020. Accordingly, Oracle recommends you contact your application provider for details on how they plan to continue to provide application support to you.

If you are a DEVELOPER, Oracle recommends you review the roadmap information for Java SE 8 and beyond and take appropriate action depending on the type of application you develop and your distribution model.

I did a search but didnt find anything relevant.

(I am pretty ignorant of Java, what it does, why I even need it: I did uninstall it for a while a couple of years ago or so, but eventually reinstalled it because it was required for some software I was using. Cant even remember which software it was :-[  I really have to start keeping a computer diary)
Tom

IainB

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2008
  • **
  • Posts: 7,222
  • Slartibartfarst
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2018, 05:44 AM »
Some people (not me, you understand) might say that this "business model" was almost bound to be implemented at some stage and that it looks like that stage has been reached, but I couldn't possibly comment.

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 9,759
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2018, 06:55 AM »
http://www.oracle.co...java/eol-135779.html

Did a search for "roadmap information for Java SE 8".

End of Public Updates for Oracle JDK 8
As outlined in the Oracle JDK Support Roadmap below, Oracle will not post further updates of Java SE 8 to its public download sites for commercial use after January 2019. Customers who need continued access to critical bug fixes and security fixes as well as general maintenance for Java SE 8 or previous versions can get long term support through Oracle Java SE Advanced, Oracle Java SE Advanced Desktop, or Oracle Java SE Suite. All other users are recommended to upgrade to the latest major releases of the Oracle JDK or OpenJDK. 

Oracle does not plan to migrate desktops from Java 8 to later versions via the auto update feature.  Individuals who require Java SE for non-corporate desktop use will continue to receive updates through at least December 2020.  Instead of relying on a pre-installed standalone JRE, we encourage application developers to deliver JREs with their applications.  More details will be made available through early 2018.

Emphasis mine.

You might check the quote below cut from here: https://blogs.oracle...tribution-of-java-se

As client application development continues to shift from the old “plugin” world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished.  Using the ‘jlink’ tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE.  Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort.

Shades

  • Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 2,385
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2018, 02:04 PM »
Most Java-based applications I have encountered the last year or so, work fine with a copy of the 'jre' folder I pulled from a computer with Java installed. They do function as advertised on my system where no Java has ever been installed.

Java applications usually work just fine when they can access the Java executables for which they are designed. Updating Java itself can seriously mess things up.

Including the (appropriate) jre folder is not necessarily a bad thing, from the application's user standpoint at least. Security/maintenance-wise, this move is or will be an issue. Still, in a crude manner, (Docker) containers and this move with Java are quite alike and share therefore the same positives and flaws. 

tomos

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 11,319
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 02:31 PM »
Most Java-based applications I have encountered the last year or so, work fine with a copy of the 'jre' folder I pulled from a computer with Java installed. They do function as advertised on my system where no Java has ever been installed.

Java applications usually work just fine when they can access the Java executables for which they are designed. Updating Java itself can seriously mess things up.

Including the (appropriate) jre folder is not necessarily a bad thing, from the application's user standpoint at least. Security/maintenance-wise, this move is or will be an issue. Still, in a crude manner, (Docker) containers and this move with Java are quite alike and share therefore the same positives and flaws. 

that's interesting. Might try copying the install folders, uninstall Java, and wait and see if anyone complains...
Tom

Deozaan

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Points: 1
  • Posts: 8,542
    • View Profile
    • The Blog of Deozaan
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 05:30 PM »
Isn't this all just saying that Java 8 is reaching end of life and that we need to be upgrading to Java 9 and 10?

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 9,759
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 08:15 PM »
Isn't this all just saying that Java 8 is reaching end of life and that we need to be upgrading to Java 9 and 10?


It could be... I see that there is a Java 9 SE and a Java 10 SE.  But I took it to mean that oracle would only distribute Java SE with the SDK for developers to distribute from the roadmap they quoted, instead of a centralized installation on the OS, i.e. the developers have to distribute a version with their software.  Sort of like what Shades is saying that he already does.

Shades

  • Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 2,385
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 10:39 PM »
To be more specific: copied the complete 'jre' folder (without any adjustments) into the root folder of the Java software. Most of the Java applications I have been trying were database clients.

[rant time]
And that is mainly because of the company DataStax who used to make a GUI application for their Cassandra database product (NoSQL). Cassandra is a welcome addition, because it can store big amounts of data very fast on even (relatively) low-end hardware. Faster than Oracle and SQL Server can manage. Differences between retrieval of data between Oracle, SQL Server and Cassandra are very small on the same hardware.

Anyway, Windows support for their GUI to create/execute queries on modern versions of the Cassandra database software has been dropped without warning. Just for those that are in need of a solution to this crappy treatment of Datastax, The Visual Studio Code editor has a pretty good extension for connecting and creating/executing queries on Cassandra databases. Both can be obtained and used freely. Unfortunately, I had to wade through a lot of solutions that wouldn't work with the latest Cassandra, weren't maintained anymore or actively block access before forking over between 200 USD to 500 USD per license, before I found out that VSCode was able to do this as well.

Not even Oracle is that stingy with their Oracle database client software. And as a company you should really be ashamed about that, because the sales-pitch from Oracle consists of the term "or else....." and the gesture of slitting your throat!).
[/rant time]

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,057
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2018, 08:56 AM »
Excuse my ignorance but is Java used that much any more? I have advised everyone I know that uses OpenOffice to move to LibreOffice and remove Java from their system.

Open Office is the only common software I have come across in recent years that needs Java.

It used to be ubiquitous in devices but seems to have been superceded these days.

Given the track record of security issues with Jave lots of installs from different vendors seems like a terrible idea - I can't imagine vendors will be keen on issueing upodates to their software every time Oracle patches another hole.

Or am I missing the point?

Deozaan

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Points: 1
  • Posts: 8,542
    • View Profile
    • The Blog of Deozaan
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2018, 09:00 AM »
Excuse my ignorance but is Java used that much any more?
-Carol Haynes (April 30, 2018, 08:56 AM)

If you consider the Minecraft player-base alone, that's a lot of people who use Java. :D

And don't forget about Android developers.

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,057
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2018, 09:58 AM »
Excuse my ignorance but is Java used that much any more?
-Carol Haynes (April 30, 2018, 08:56 AM)

If you consider the Minecraft player-base alone, that's a lot of people who use Java. :D

And don't forget about Android developers.

Ah accounts for a lot with Android!!! Didn't realise that it was wrtting largely in Java.

f0dder

  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,134
  • [Well, THAT escalated quickly!]
    • View Profile
    • f0dder's place
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2018, 01:00 PM »
Excuse my ignorance but is Java used that much any more? I have advised everyone I know that uses OpenOffice to move to LibreOffice and remove Java from their system.
-Carol Haynes (April 30, 2018, 08:56 AM)
Hm, I thought LibreOffice was developed in Java - certainly runs sluggishly enough that it could be using one of those crappy GUI toolkits.

But there's more megabytes of *.py than *.jar in the version 6.0 I've currently got installed.

What's it written in these days? Natively-compiled Java, C++, ...?

Also, Java is still used a lot on the server side. Both the language itself, but also all the other languages running on top of the JVM, like Clojure, Scala, Kotlin...
- carpe noctem
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 01:13 PM by f0dder »

f0dder

  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,134
  • [Well, THAT escalated quickly!]
    • View Profile
    • f0dder's place
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2018, 01:12 PM »
So, about the Java issue...

It's a bit chilling. But it's nothing new, whOracle has always restricted access to older versions of their software to paid subscribers.

It's a shitty move for Java, though, since older software still used by people might not always work with the newest versions. That happened a lot for JRE6, and we're going to see it with JRE8 again, because (among other things) of the module system changes introduced with JRE9.

There's some other musings in Oracle to charge for Java from Jan 2019 - I believe the title is a bit alarmist, unless I've misunderstood something you can still run stuff on JRE8 for free... it's just that you won't be able to download it without having commercial support. Unless I've misunderstood something, which is quite possible, because whOracle are evil.
- carpe noctem

cyberdiva

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • Posts: 1,022
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: What's going on with Java?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2018, 05:46 PM »
Pimlico Software's Pimlical Calendar and information manager (the successor to the DateBk program for Palm) uses Java. I have it on my Windows computer and on my Android tablet and phone. It's probably the only thing for which I use Java. However, I love it, so I'd hate to see anything that might cause it problems.