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Author Topic: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)  (Read 510 times)

Chessnia

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"Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« on: April 20, 2017, 09:54:20 AM »
Just a quick question. I don't know the program well enough, I don't think it's a current feature, but is it possible to copy something into windows clipboard but not being recorded by HSP? (call it "invisible clip" if you like).
The reason why I'm asking this is that there are times when you do need something on your clipboard but you don't really want it to be saved into the clipboard manager because you know you're going to have to delete it afterwards (because it's sensitive information or whatever other resason)  so it only adds junk to the clipboard list.
It'd be cool if you could just press a special combination of keys to do that...

tomos

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 10:52:01 AM »
It'd be cool if you could just press a special combination of keys to do that...
great idea!

This doesn't cover your request, but worth knowing:
in 'Options' under 'Capture options', there is an ignore list for apps.
Which can be helpful, but not very flexible.
Tom

mouser

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 11:16:47 AM »
You can toggle CHS on and off from system tray -- the icon changes to show you it's off.
What I should do is add a quick hotkey to toggle it on and off -- that would make it easier to quickly do.

mouser

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 12:21:26 PM »
Newly updated beta includes a new customizable hotkey to toggle clipboard capture on and off, which might be useful for scenarios like this.

Chessnia

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 03:16:14 AM »
Thanks Tomos, I was aware of that, yes.

Mouser: I understand that some of our requests are much harder to implement than some of us naïve users imagine. But I don't think that addresses my request at all, because the real life scenario that most people get is completely different: People copy and paste stuff all the time. URLs, images, etc. Then maybe they have to copy a bank account number from their password list app, they have to switch off the program. Then switch it on again. Then they don't want to save an image into the clipboard, off again, on again. Another image, etc. Switching it on and off is actually a rather cumbersome "solution" to the situation I was describing. It makes it even more confusing than actually deleting it manually.
Having said that, being able to toggle on and off the program using a hotkey is definitely a nice addon to the program.

IainB

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 07:05:01 AM »
@Chessnia:
...Then maybe they have to copy a bank account number from their password list app, they have to switch off the program. Then switch it on again. Then they don't want to save an image into the clipboard, off again, on again. Another image, etc. Switching it on and off is actually a rather cumbersome "solution" to the situation I was describing. It makes it even more confusing than actually deleting it manually. ...
_______________________________
I think you have hit the nail on the head there - the work process that one is following needs to be considered. Why would one inflict a confusing process on the user?

So, looking at it as a work process:
  • Ergonomically, doing what you are suggesting the user might want to be done here could indeed likely be rather confusing - as you say - and may even induce human error because of that.

  • My suggestion would thus be to simplify and to concentrate on one thing at a time - capture everything that one clips, regardless, then periodically review the clips and tick as "Favourite" those clips that one wishes to keep permanently, then delete any/all clips remaining that have not been marked as favourites. That puts them into the clip database's Recycle Bin. One can then permanently delete those clips in the Recycle Bin by emptying the bin.

  • So that is what I usually do, except I add on a "belts-and-braces" process step and first review the deleted clips in the Recycle Bin to double-check whether I really did want them deleted. So, I conduct this check, recovering any clips that I decide to retain, and only then do I empty the bin.

  • One could otherwise set CHS to auto-delete any non-favourited clips once they have reached/passed a certain age, but I prefer not to use that approach as I wish to control, the deletion process in a more timely fashion, rather than have things blindly auto-deleted at a later time - which also risks having confidential data remain in auto-backups of the clip database.

Scanning/reviewing and checking the list of clips like this requires scrolling the non-favourited clips in the database, which used to be a tedious process for me, due to the slugishness of the scrolling in CHS. However, @mouser recently fixed that, so that CHS is now blazingly fast most of the time and the check-and-delete process can thus be very rapid. It's a doddle.

If one worked in this manner, then being able to toggle CHS On/Off via a hotkey, or something, would thus categorically probably not be a requirement (not mandatory, not highly desirable, and not nice-to-have), and having such a feature could thus arguably be superfluous -  though I am not suggesting by this that the toggle should not be there.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 07:20:36 AM by IainB »

tomos

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 07:23:25 AM »
Newly updated beta includes a new customizable hotkey to toggle clipboard capture on and off, which might be useful for scenarios like this.
thanks for this mouser, will make use of this

my ideal would be (I think like Chessnia is requesting) a hotkey that would copy selected but not save it in the CHS database. Not sure how, or if, that could be implemented.
Tom

mouser

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 08:37:27 AM »
Quote
A hotkey that would copy selected but not save it in the CHS database
That should be possible..

mouser

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 09:21:10 AM »
Implemented in latest (just uploaded) beta.

  • [Improvement] The hotkey that used to be used to trigger a copy even when CHS monitoring is disabled now does double duty, and can be used to tell CHS to trigger a copy and *NOT* store the clip if CHS monitoring is enabled.

(NOTE: There is no default set for this hotkey, you have to go configure it before you can use it).



Note this hotkey behaves differently depending on whether you have CHS clipboard monitoring disabled or enabled.  It basically tells CHS to simulate a Ctrl+C copy event in windows, and then do the OPPOSITE of what you have told it to do on a normal copy event.  So if you have CHS normally enabled and copying all of your clips, this will tell CHS to NOT store this clip; if you have CHS normally ignoring all clips, then this hotkey will tell CHS to store just this one.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 12:24:12 PM by mouser »

IainB

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 10:26:15 AM »
That's quite a nifty approach - masking the state and doing the "opposite" thing. I was wondering how to do that using AHK and the problem was that one does not know what state has been toggled to start with, so the state has to be assumed and that is uncertain.
Would it be possible for CHS to broadcast the state that has been toggled - somewhere where AHK could access/read it?
That is, whether the state is:
  • CHS normally enabled and copying all of your clips
  • CHS normally ignoring all clips

- or would that be written out to ClipboardHelpAndSpell.ini anyway, each time the state is toggled/changed?

mouser

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 10:32:40 AM »
There isn't currently a way to get that info from CHS; can you explain a use case where you would want to be able to tell whether CHS is enabled or disabled from AHK?

mouser

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 12:21:59 PM »
Let me know if the new feature works for you (tip: you have to release the keys before it can trigger a Ctrl+C).

tomos

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 01:06:10 PM »
Let me know if the new feature works for you (tip: you have to release the keys before it can trigger a Ctrl+C).

working nicely here (just tested with Pale Moon browser so far)
thanks!!
Tom

IainB

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 01:11:31 PM »
@mouser: You say/ask:
There isn't currently a way to get that info from CHS; can you explain a use case where you would want to be able to tell whether CHS is enabled or disabled from AHK?
_______________________

Before you posted that you had put the "reverse toggle" in, I was puzzling over how to do what @tomos was basically asking for, but using AHK rather than build it in to CHS:
...a hotkey that would copy selected but not save it in the CHS database. Not sure how, or if, that could be implemented. ...
_______________________
I saw it as a puzzle rather than a "use case".
When you posted that you had made the "reverse toggle", I saw what you had done as a nifty way of getting around the need to determine the current state, that went about 80% of the way there, in a situation where the current state was not easily known, but it could only be one of two possible complex states.
Your "reverse toggle" thus was actually quite a simple (logical) workaround, because it made use of the fact that the current state could only be one of 2 options, without actually knowing what they were, but it still left the question unanswered in my mind as to how one might be able to find the current state - e.g., like in this potentially extremely useful bit of AHK code for a toggle to make a selected window topmost, and then reverse that when the user wants, but where the current OnTop state is not known by the user:
_________________________
^>+T:: ; Ctrl+RightShift+T  - OnTop - TOGGLE FUNCTION
WinGetTitle,title,A ; this code cribbed from MilesAhead (DonationCoder) TopMost Toggle script.
  WinSet,Topmost,Toggle,A ; toggle TopMost state
  WinGet, ExStyle, ExStyle, A ; DLLCALL to tell if window AlwaysOnTop
  if (ExStyle & 0x8) ; 0x8 is WS_EX_TOPMOST.
    tiptext := "Topmost ON"
  else
    tiptext := "Topmost OFF"
  ToolTip,%tiptext%
  Sleep, 500
  ToolTip
Return
_________________________
The DLLCALL to tell if window AlwaysOnTop is the thing. It enables an appropriate ToolTip to be output which tells the user precisely what the OnTop state is now (after toggling), rather than him/her having to recall what the initial state was and figure out (deduce) what it must be by now. This is called "visible feedback". No feedback or invisible/not perceived feedback is asking for trouble.

That's the trouble with toggles - whether in cockpit instrumentation or a computer window display - the ideal ergonomic objective is that the user is (must be) assured with good ergonomic feedback as to what the state is after the toggle has been used. So there would be less or no ambiguity/uncertainty about the matter. In a cockpit, it could be a matter of life-or-death. In a computer proggy like CHS, it would help the user  to avoid absent-mindedly (that would be me) making the wrong deduction about what the toggle state is/was (or not even realising that anything had changed by using the toggle), and (say) inadvertently saving a load of confidential data to the clip database because they had forgotten or simply did not know/realise that they had changed the toggle or what the blasted toggle state was.

My benchmark is "Will this be something that me and my kids could use/understand, without confusion?", so I thought that, if I were wanting to make a CHS toggle that they could use/understand, then it would be a mandatory requirement for it to provide the appropriate visible feedback in the same/similar way as the OnTop toggle.
The toggle you provided is something that I might be able to use correctly sometimes (though perhaps not when absent-minded if lost in thought), but probably not my kids.

Hence my Q to you: "Would it be possible for CHS to broadcast the state that has been toggled?"
I wasn't asking for you to do anything about it, as, for all I know, the state might be able to be subtly deduced from some conditions that I was unaware of. Looks like the answer is a "No", anyway. Pity. Never mind.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 01:20:24 PM by IainB »

mouser

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 08:20:37 PM »
Quote
Hence my Q to you: "Would it be possible for CHS to broadcast the state that has been toggled?"
There are a couple of ways it could be done.. Let me think about a solution that I could use on all my apps to expose some state information easily and portably.

IainB

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Re: "Invisible clip" ? (Ignore Clip Hotkey)
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2017, 10:12:50 AM »
@mouser: ^^ Ruddy great response.    :Thmbsup:
You clearly seem to get the point. Thankyou. If your deliberations arrive at the conclusion that it's too much like hard work though, please don't go to the trouble to make changes just for my sake.