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Last post Author Topic: Looking for smartphone  (Read 10837 times)

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2016, 08:45:53 PM »
surprised to read that none of the three Moto G4 variants have regular compass capability, which means most navigation apps will not work.

A compass is not required for (GPS based) navigation, it is only of interest if you want to know what direction you are facing while stationary, (and if you want that added to photo metadata).

GPS based navigation programs will give you the direction you are heading in as soon as you move more than a few meters.
I have had only had one phone that has had a compass (my current one), all my previous (5 Android phones) never did, yet they have no problem doing satellite navigation.

Most early GPS receivers never had compasses ... they still work.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 09:30:22 PM by 4wd »

tomos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2016, 07:27:30 AM »
surprised to read that none of the three Moto G4 variants have regular compass capability, which means most navigation apps will not work.

A compass is not required for (GPS based) navigation, it is only of interest if you want to know what direction you are facing while stationary, (and if you want that added to photo metadata).

GPS based navigation programs will give you the direction you are heading in as soon as you move more than a few meters.
I have had only had one phone that has had a compass (my current one), all my previous (5 Android phones) never did, yet they have no problem doing satellite navigation.

Most early GPS receivers never had compasses ... they still work.

as can happen (to me), I didnt understand fully what I was saying :-[ :) [edit] there's technical term for that, isn't there :D [/edit]
Went back for a second look, below about the Moto G4 (in translation) from amazon.de:

Quote
Much worse is shame on you Lenovo, the abandonment of basic sensors for navigation. What the hell is that? These are absolute basic features, which even 100 € Smartphones easily master. For a 249 UVP smartphone absolutely unworthy. What does it mean in the plain text?

The Moto G4 supports only A-GPS! And it has no magnetometer. There is therefore no Glonass support and a compass. A-GPS needs additional WLAN or mobile phone reception. How to navigate however 99% of the mobile navis and as long as one is in the area of ​​the net cover with mobile Internet is there no problems. There is also a real GPS sensor. Inlandsnavigation by car is thus very well possible (with good satellite reception on 3m accurate).

However, if you do not have an Internet connection for a long time, the corresponding help data can not be downloaded and the GPS fix can take several minutes (otherwise 5-20 sec). Glonass support would have been great, however, to enable even faster and more precise location determinations through a dual system. And a compass for the orientation on the map is also indispensable, if you have no orientation points and you do not want to go a stretch to know in which direction of heaven one moves. Even in the city, it is sensible to know where to go. Where the needle points is the direction of view.
[..]
No idea why these important parts have been rationalized away a few cents away, but a gyroscope is there. If you never navigate with your mobile phone as a pedestrian Problem-free access, who does it, well consider whether one can do without the feature! For me it is a often used basic feature, since I am often in foreign cities and also for wild walks less suitable.

As I said, for a 249 UVP smartphone absolutely unworthy. I hope Lenovo soon reworked. These arguments seem to be unimportant for most and overall, it is still a very good smartphone with limited pedestrian navigation. In addition, I often need a compass when walking and other situations (for example, astrophotography is also facilitated). For me it is however one of the most outstanding negative aspects of this smartphone, which for most should already be an indication that not much wrong can be when relatively bad speakers and a missing compass are the biggest drawbacks.
https://www.amazon.d...&ASIN=B01FLZC8ZI

I'm fairly ignorant of these things, but navigation is something I'd like to work 'properly'
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 07:34:37 AM by tomos »

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #77 on: December 20, 2016, 06:39:40 PM »
I'm fairly ignorant of these things, but navigation is something I'd like to work 'properly'

Any recent, (and not so recent), smart phone with a GPS will work fine, if the Huawei Y201 Pro and the Huawei Y300, (both of which I own and cost less than AU$50 each, 3+ years ago), can happily do navigation and the G4 can't, then Lenovo has problems.

Work out what you want to do with the phone, then work out what functions the phone has to have to fulfil them.
eg.
  • If you're going to take 360⁰ photo spheres with the camera, then it has to have gyroscope.
  • If you want photo metadata that shows which direction you were facing when you took the photo, then it has to have a compass, (although I just use GeoSetter + Google Maps usually).
  • If you want to play games that require tilting/moving the phone, then it has to have an accelerometer.
  • If you want to navigate, it has to have a GPS receiver.
  • If you just like playing with gadgets, get everything.

The below are all quoted from the "review":

Quote
Much worse is shame on you Lenovo, the abandonment of basic sensors for navigation.

To put things into perspective, my current 'real' GPS receiver is a Geko 201.  It has the following: a GPS receiver ... that's it.

I bought it in 2003 when I was in the USA, no Compass, no Magnetometer, no Accelerometer, no Gyroscope, no Barometer, no Assisted GPS (A-GPS), etc, etc, etc.
It still works, it'll keep working until the GPS satellites fall out of the sky or it dies in some unknowable fashion.
I can load a route into it and tell it to guide me, it'll tell me what direction I'm heading in as soon as I start moving.

From a cold start it'll take a couple of minutes to acquire a fix but if you're in that much of a hurry, turn it on before you need it.

The G4 comes with the basic requirements for navigation: a GPS receiver ... that is all that is required. Anything extra is just a bonus toy.

Quote
The Moto G4 supports only A-GPS!

It's not only A-GPS, it's a GPS receiver with Assisted GPS function, it can download GPS Almanac data through a network connection, this data will also be downloaded from the GPS satellites themselves if it is out of date, (this is what my Geko did), and there's no network connection.

About the Almanac:
Quote
The GPS almanac is a set of data that every GPS satellite transmits, and it includes information about the state (health) of the entire GPS satellite constellation and coarse data on every satellite's orbit.

Not having current Almanac data can slow down the time to first fix (TTFF) due to having to get it from the satellites but that is all.
Pointless Info
It requires 3 GPS satellites to calculate a 2D location fix, it requires 4 GPS satellites to get a good 3D location fix, (ie. altitude). Once a location fix is obtained a GPS receiver can get by with only 2 satellite signals until those signals are lost, then it will be a warm start to reacquire which should only take 10-20 seconds.
If the Almanac data is out of date then it requires approximately 30 seconds of good signal reception from each satellite in order to update the receiver. Once it has the almanac for 1 satellite it can use the data to predict the locations of other satellites.
So, in theory, it should only take a 2-3 minutes from cold start to get a position given decent signal reception.


A-GPS can also speed up TTFF using trilateration from mobile phone tower signals.

Quote
And it has no magnetometer.

It's not required, move a couple of meters or so and it'll tell you which direction you're going.

Quote
There is therefore no Glonass support and a compass.

Must be something in the translation but the answer to this statement as read would have to be: So?

Quote
A-GPS needs additional WLAN or mobile phone reception.

Yes it does but A-GPS is not required ... therefore a data connection is not required.

Quote
There is also a real GPS sensor. Inlandsnavigation by car is thus very well possible (with good satellite reception on 3m accurate).

Finally he gets the idea that it has a GPS receiver. And it won't just work inland by car, it'll also work on a boat and in a plane providing it can get a clear view of the satellites.

Quote
However, if you do not have an Internet connection for a long time, the corresponding help data can not be downloaded ...

GPS Almanac data will be downloaded from the satellites, it'll just take longer.

Quote
... and the GPS fix can take several minutes (otherwise 5-20 sec).

Yes it can but generally the Almanac data is only required once a month or so and a cold start TTFF without A-GPS will most likely be about 2-3 minutes.

Quote
Glonass support would have been great, however, to enable even faster and more precise location determinations through a dual system.

Faster, more accurate ... maybe.  My RN2 can receive GPS (USA), GLONASS (Russia), BDS (China), and use A-GPS ... I don't think I've seen better than 3m accuracy from it and that's using 18 out of 27 satellites.

Having access to more satellites doesn't guarantee increased accuracy as you're still relying on the electronics with whatever tolerances they use plus other factors, (multi-path ghosting, etc), and how it copes with them.

Quote
And a compass for the orientation on the map is also indispensable, if you have no orientation points and you do not want to go a stretch to know in which direction of heaven one moves. Even in the city, it is sensible to know where to go. Where the needle points is the direction of view.

It's not indispensable, as for a 'stretch', is moving 5 meters really too much to do?

Quote
... but a gyroscope is there.

Because it is necessary to have a gyroscope in order to take 360⁰ photo spheres which are popular, a compass isn't really necessary unless you also want that info in photo metadata.

Quote
For me it is a often used basic feature, since I am often in foreign cities and also for wild walks less suitable.

At last he finally admits that this is his problem. The fact is, he wants a compass but then went and bought a smart phone that he knew didn't have one ... I mean, he did check the specifications first, didn't he?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 12:23:55 AM by 4wd »

tomos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2016, 03:20:42 AM »
thanks 4wd, you're a mine of information :Thmbsup:

Work out what you want to do with the phone, then work out what functions the phone has to have to fulfil them.

I live in the woods, and do cycle and walk a bit. I have used my current phone (Nokia 730) on occasion to find out where the hell I was and what direction I should be heading -- it did seem to work pretty quickly, but not sure whether I had internet connection at the time (unlikely, but possible). Hence, I did think the navigation thing was important/of interest. I'll have to come back to this when I have a bit of time:
figure out what my current phone can do (I dont *think* it has a compass), and what I would like in a new (android) one.


4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2016, 06:28:48 AM »
... current phone (Nokia 730) ...

Stick with it unless there's something on Android you want, (or just want a more powerful phone), since it's equipped with basically the same as my phone: GPS, GLONASS, BDS, A-GPS, and a compass.

No gyroscope so if you want to start doing photo spheres you'll need a new phone.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 06:35:42 AM by 4wd »

tomos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2016, 09:28:21 AM »
... current phone (Nokia 730) ...

Stick with it unless there's something on Android you want, (or just want a more powerful phone), since it's equipped with basically the same as my phone: GPS, GLONASS, BDS, A-GPS, and a compass.

gotta say: it is a great phone -- not powerful, but was perfect for my needs, with a very nice camera (in daylight at any rate).
There are definitely things on Android I'd like. Having just bought a camera (Panasonic GX85) which can be controlled via app (only android/iphone), makes it tempting -- but that app might end up being one of those toys that never really get used. Of course having just bought that camera probably means I should save any spare money in the bank for my next dentist visit or something responsible like that.
Will hold out another bit.

edit/ photo from Nokia 730:

Screenshot - 2016-12-21 , 16_32_36.jpgLooking for smartphone

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2016, 06:47:21 PM »
Having just bought a camera (Panasonic GX85) which can be controlled via app (only android/iphone), makes it tempting -- but that app might end up being one of those toys that never really get used.

Yep, the HTC RE action cam I've got can be controlled via the phone but it's quicker to just hit the button on the camera, still have to use the app if I want anything fancy though, (time lapse or preview).

BTW, if you ever have a question about whether a phone can do navigation then something to remind you, all the basic dedicated SatNav units have just a GPS receiver and some maps.

No fancy sensors, they're a step up from my old Geko which doesn't have maps  :)

tomos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #82 on: December 22, 2016, 01:15:14 AM »
BTW, if you ever have a question about whether a phone can do navigation then something to remind you, all the basic dedicated SatNav units have just a GPS receiver and some maps.
okay,
will keep in mind
thanks!

kalos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #83 on: December 22, 2016, 07:34:49 PM »
4wd any recommendation for me?

kalos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2017, 03:48:26 PM »
My Xiaomi Pro 3 is coming soon!  ;D ;D

How can I transfer my data from my current Samsung Note 3?

Is there a way?
Or I have to do everything from scratch?

Thanks!

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2017, 05:58:11 PM »
How can I transfer my data from my current Samsung Note 3?

  • Phone to PC and then from PC to Phone
  • Google Drive
  • Flash drive via OTG
  • AirDroid
  • FTP server
  • Unplug uSD from old phone, plug into new phone
  • Turn on Backup data and Automatic Restore
  • Root phone, back up apps with Titanium Backup ★ root, restore on (rooted) new phone

Be more specific: What "data" ?

xtabber

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2017, 06:59:05 AM »
For call logs, I recommend SMS Backup & Restore (free).

For everything else, I use X-plore File Manager, which is free but you need to make a donation to unlock the ability to work across a network.  If you use more than one Android device, X-plore's WiFi-share server is particularly useful and also lets you manage files on your Android devices from a PC web browser.

kalos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2017, 05:32:00 PM »
How can I transfer my data from my current Samsung Note 3?

  • Phone to PC and then from PC to Phone
  • Google Drive
  • Flash drive via OTG
  • AirDroid
  • FTP server
  • Unplug uSD from old phone, plug into new phone
  • Turn on Backup data and Automatic Restore
  • Root phone, back up apps with Titanium Backup ★ root, restore on (rooted) new phone

Be more specific: What "data" ?

By data, I mean not really files like photos and videos that I can just copy to the new phone.

I mean for example my YMail app that has been set up with my accounts, my settings etc. My Tasker app, that has scripts and settings. My Sleipnir browser that has bookmarks and opened tabs that it remembers.

Is there a way to transfer these or I have to manually install them and set them up from the begining?

Also, I don't quite understand the list you said, are these steps of the procedure? Will that procedure do what I need?
thanks!

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2017, 09:47:06 PM »
Also, I don't quite understand the list you said, are these steps of the procedure? Will that procedure do what I need?

It's a list of possibilities because you failed to clarify exactly what you were talking about.

Quote
I mean for example my YMail app that has been set up with my accounts, my settings etc. My Tasker app, that has scripts and settings. My Sleipnir browser that has bookmarks and opened tabs that it remembers.

Is there a way to transfer these or I have to manually install them and set them up from the begining?

Either of these two:
  • Turn on Backup data and Automatic Restore
  • Root phone, back up apps with Titanium Backup ★ root, restore on (rooted) new phone

Turn on Back up my data and Automatic restore in Settings->Backup & reset
Screenshot_2017-01-16-14-39-33.pngLooking for smartphone

Once you install the app from the Play store on your new phone, all its settings should be restored from your Google account (in theory).
Don't forget to turn on syncing to the account under Settings->Accounts->Google->account and initiate a synchronisation.

You'll probably need to copy the Tasker scripts across.


Otherwise, you can root your phones and use Titanium Backup ★ root (what I always use).

kalos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2017, 04:08:10 PM »
thanks but I don't want to root my phone

if I root it, all my banking apps do not work, but MobileIron doesn't work so I cannot have access to my work emails!

ital2

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2017, 08:29:54 PM »
Hi.

I'm sorry. The other thread is just 1 month old, but I didn't pay attention to it, and its page 4 is a mine of information indeed, thanks to you.

I wasn't aware of there being several signal sources, had just heard of gps, but after posting yesterday, I thought there probably are quality differences between the gps devices in the phones/tablets/navigation devices, so it would probably be a good idea to search for comparative tests looking for that.

Now there are so many different signal sources, I suppose that not every map software is able to get data from all of these, so that would be another factor.

I admit my compass misunderstanding or better not understanding compasses has grown. First. You say electronic compasses sense the magnetic field of the earth, but then they probably would be deviated by car magnetism in some way, as magnetic compasses do, since for sensing magnetism, there would be some magnetism, some magnetic sensor? But perhaps they do it differently, after all.

Second, I always thought that both direction and position were calculated from the difference of signal strength of different gps satellites, so if a device, smartphone, etc., gets its position, it also gets the info where is North, since different gps satellites also send some sort of positional data of their own, so the device knows where they are, and hence can calculate the compass data, without sensing the magnetic field?

While in the other thread, it's said - between what is worded I mean - that for pedestrian purposes, a compass should be there since you would have to march straight into one direction for some time in order for the device establishing gps data history, from which then only it could identify both direction and position, and from that only, compass data?

Besides, my wish for a N/E/S/W arrow within the 10 o'clock and the 2 o'clock range was understood to be mutually exclusive, I meant one big arrow, with either a big N, E, S or W character, just one of them, within that screen part, in order to indicate the direction in which you are heading on-the-spot, while a full compass, with N AND E, S and W is much less able to indicate your direction with just one quick glance when driving, possible in narrow streets. I know that range is a third of a full circle, but I really meant just a quarter of a full circle, something between minus 8 and plus 7 minutes there, so that just one direction arrow would appear there at any time, not two, and if that's South, it goes without saying that to your left, it's East, and West to your right, and so on.

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2017, 11:55:27 PM »
I wasn't aware of there being several signal sources, had just heard of gps, but after posting yesterday, I thought there probably are quality differences between the gps devices in the phones/tablets/navigation devices, so it would probably be a good idea to search for comparative tests looking for that.

Now there are so many different signal sources, I suppose that not every map software is able to get data from all of these, so that would be another factor.

What do you mean by 'so many different signal sources'?

There are only GPS satellite signals needed for GPS receivers to calculate your position.  Although, technically, there are other sources for GPS signals such as Differential GPS that are transmitted by ground stations but they require a receiver that can handle them.

Quote
I admit my compass misunderstanding or better not understanding compasses has grown. First. You say electronic compasses sense the magnetic field of the earth, but then they probably would be deviated by car magnetism in some way, as magnetic compasses do, since for sensing magnetism, there would be some magnetism, some magnetic sensor? But perhaps they do it differently, after all.

In my experience I've yet to have a vehicle, magnet, or some other interference affect the internal electronic compass of my phone.  Doesn't mean it can't happen, get near a MRI and you'll find it will but then you have other problems like the phone wanting to stick itself to the MRI ;D

Quote
Second, I always thought that both direction and position were calculated from the difference of signal strength of different gps satellites, so if a device, smartphone, etc., gets its position, it also gets the info where is North, since different gps satellites also send some sort of positional data of their own, so the device knows where they are, and hence can calculate the compass data, without sensing the magnetic field?

Here's a question for you:
Untitled 1.pngLooking for smartphone

Given that the receiver has located your (You) position from the signal strengths (more precisely, time delay between transmission and reception) of the three satellites (A, B, C) how does the receiver know which direction you are facing since no matter which way you turn on the spot, the signal strengths from each of the satellites is going to be the same?

GPS can only provide position, not direction - as soon as you start moving then your position has changed and everything can then be calculated from that change: direction, speed, distance, etc.

Here's a good explanation of how GPS works.

Quote
While in the other thread, it's said - between what is worded I mean - that for pedestrian purposes, a compass should be there since you would have to march straight into one direction for some time in order for the device establishing gps data history, from which then only it could identify both direction and position, and from that only, compass data?

No, it only takes a change in position of a few metres, 5 is usually more than enough, (I've found only 2 or 3 metres is sufficient on my receiver), unless reception of GPS is abnormally bad.

There is no data history, there is only the last position and the current position used for calculations concerning direction, speed, etc.

Quote
Besides, my wish for a N/E/S/W arrow within the 10 o'clock and the 2 o'clock range was understood to be mutually exclusive, I meant one big arrow, with either a big N, E, S or W character, just one of them, within that screen part, in order to indicate the direction in which you are heading on-the-spot, while a full compass, with N AND E, S and W is much less able to indicate your direction with just one quick glance when driving, possible in narrow streets. I know that range is a third of a full circle, but I really meant just a quarter of a full circle, something between minus 8 and plus 7 minutes there, so that just one direction arrow would appear there at any time, not two, and if that's South, it goes without saying that to your left, it's East, and West to your right, and so on.

It might take a while but you may be able to find a navigation app that put the compass heading across the top/bottom of the screen which is probably better than a small compass rose.

eg.

Across the top you'll have something like:
2017-01-22 16_34_31.pngLooking for smartphone

With it sliding left/right according to direction faced.

BTW, just wondering, but why the concern with compass direction?
In over 30 years of 4wding my only concern w.r.t. as to direction has been: forward, backward, left, right or more correctly, just pointing and saying 'that way'  ;D
Given a map, I've never needed to know exactly what heading/bearing I'm on as long as I'm heading the way I want to go.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 12:33:02 AM by 4wd »

ital2

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2017, 07:04:22 PM »
Hi.

I am sorry, my post above was meant to be in the original thread: http://www.donationc....msg405922#msg405922

You mentioned those other signal sources, beyond GPS: A-GPS, Glonass, TTFF, BDS - so these are all GPSsignals, just from non-GPS satellites, or in other words, technically, they are all the same, but they are named differently since the organizations behind them are different? And you spoke of 3m accuracy, your device getting signals from 18 out of 27 satellites. That seems perfect. So I suppose it depends on the device if it is able to get those signals other than GPS, too, and perhaps it's also a question of the map software then if it, or some intermediary software proper to the device itself, can aggregate all this info. You now also mention D-GPS / Differential-GPS, I suppose high-end navigation devices can treat them.

I believe you on your compass signal not being deviated in your car. It's just that I had had, with 3 different magnetic compasses, including 2 car compasses, at least they were sold as such, in 3 different cars, deviations of up to 100 degrees.

Thank you for the link which explains it very well. I admit my idea of differing signal strength for positions that are 100 or 200 m apart was a stupid one, but minute length differences are as surprising. But to answer your question, I thought the satellites also sent their position and an identification code, and that the receiver also receives lists of which satellite is where when or does what orbit and such, but you're right, spatial thinking is not for everyone, that's why I so heavily rely upon maps and compasses, and to be frank, my not wanting to buy a traditional navigation device for years was due to the fact that with maps on the passenger seat, I at least have an idea where I am, while traditional navigation devices of the kind I knew told you to go straight or to turn, but all between departure and arrival, you did not know where you were, except for city-limit signs on the road.

I've seen the slider in some map on my pc and agree that would be fine on the move, had not understood it there since on my pc it did not slide so as to the real direction coming into center. So this slider is no other that what I had imagined, plus the neighboring directions in order for people not having to remember that West is alway to the left of North, etc.

You sometimes speak of your receiver, which is obviously very, very good, and then you speak of your smartphones or tablets. What is your current receiver, or do you mean the one built into your current smartphone? 2m is awesomely impressive! Perhaps we could deduct that some makers use better gps receivers in their smartphones/tablets than others. This interests me a lot, since when in some town I do a 90-degree turn, it would be nice to have the map rotating after 15, 20 m instead of 150, 200 m only!

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2017, 09:10:45 PM »
You mentioned those other signal sources, beyond GPS: A-GPS, Glonass, TTFF, BDS - so these are all GPSsignals, just from non-GPS satellites, or in other words, technically, they are all the same, but they are named differently since the organizations behind them are different?

GPS - generically refers to all Global Positioning Systems or just the USA implementation which was the first in orbit (1978).
GLONASS (Globalnaya Navigazionnaya Sputnikovaya Sistema) - Russian implementation of GPS
BDS (BeiDou Navigation Satellite System) - Chinese implementation of GPS
Galileo (Global Navigation Satellite System) - EU implementation of GPS

There are probably others by now.

The main reason behind why there are so many different implementations is to prevent lockout by a country if there was only a single system.

TTFF isn't a signal, it's an acronym for Time To First Fix - the time taken to get a position fix after switching on the device.

A-GPS is Assisted GPS, not a signal either but rather a function that allows for faster TTFF by downloading of GPS Almanac data from the internet (rather than the GPS satellites) and providing an approximate position using trilateration from mobile phone signals.  GPS devices will work without A-GPS.

BTW, there is actually two types of data transmitted by GPS satellites:
  • Almanac - which is orbital data about the whole system, this data is good for a month or more.
  • Ephemeris - which is accurate course/clock data concerning that particular satellite, only good for about 30 minutes. (If a receiver has been turned off longer than that it needs to obtain this data again from the satellite.)

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And you spoke of 3m accuracy, your device getting signals from 18 out of 27 satellites. That seems perfect. So I suppose it depends on the device if it is able to get those signals other than GPS, too, and perhaps it's also a question of the map software then if it, or some intermediary software proper to the device itself, can aggregate all this info.

Accuracy is provided by the GPS receiver hardware, nothing to do with the software or maps. The GPS receiver reports it's position, the software interprets that and displays it on a map - if the software/map is calibrated wrong, then it will show your position as somewhere you aren't.

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You now also mention D-GPS / Differential-GPS, I suppose high-end navigation devices can treat them.

Usually only required by people who need that kind of accuracy, eg. surveyors.

There are also GPS satellites in orbit that provide a measure of accuracy improvement, WAASw (Wide Area Augmentation System) and EGNOS, (although I've just seen there are others now).  As usual, the GPS receiver has to be capable of utilising data from these sources.

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But to answer your question, I thought the satellites also sent their position and an identification code,

They do.

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and that the receiver also receives lists of which satellite is where when or does what orbit and such,

It does.

But without some means of identifying which direction you're facing, how is the device supposed to indicate your bearing?
Hence the need for an internal compass.

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that's why I so heavily rely upon maps and compasses,

I still use paper maps, I've never needed a compass. All my maps are topographic, I can work out my position from what terrain I'm on, heading towards, or have driven through.

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You sometimes speak of your receiver, which is obviously very, very good, and then you speak of your smartphones or tablets. What is your current receiver, or do you mean the one built into your current smartphone?

My GPS receiver is a 14 year old Garmin Geko 201, it's not very very good, it was cheap but it does the job.  I don't I've seen better than 5m accuracy on it, (also called HDOP, Horizontal Dilution Of Precision).  Before that I had a Garmin GPS38 which was even slower and less accurate.

My use of GPS, (whether dedicated or phone/tablet), is almost 100% for a track log, not as a navigation aid - I'm more interested in where I've been rather than where I'm going.  I have very little interest in following a pre-programmed track.

eg.
2017-01-23 13_27_56.pngLooking for smartphone

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2m is awesomely impressive! Perhaps we could deduct that some makers use better gps receivers in their smartphones/tablets than others. This interests me a lot, since when in some town I do a 90-degree turn, it would be nice to have the map rotating after 15, 20 m instead of 150, 200 m only!

I have had my phone report 1m accuracy but that's rather rare so I don't bother quoting that figure, plus that degree of accuracy in not something you should rely on in a device that costs less than US$130.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 09:30:23 PM by 4wd »

ital2

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2017, 07:02:52 PM »
Hi.

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The main reason behind why there are so many different implementations is to prevent lockout by a country if there was only a single system.

Yes, I remember now to have read that GPS had been invented for military reasons, so a plethora of Chinese gps signals, on top of the American ones, will only become of interest when the U.S. satellites send out deviated signals, for the aforementioned reasons, but I suppose we'll have bigger problem than then sightseeing. But to be serious, I now understand why the shear number signals received is irrelevant, it's the quality the receiver that counts, or in other, as you say, don't buy cheap.

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I still use paper maps, I've never needed a compass. All my maps are topographic, I can work out my position from what terrain I'm on, heading towards, or have driven through.

This made me spontaneously laugh out, not because I don't believe this but to the contrary, admirably, I believe you 100 %, you're an expert in these questions and know what you do, even in the wilderness.

I admire this all the more so since I do get lost rather often - I always try my best to train my senses, and then it's just another case of getting lost, so all I train is my sense of humor.

As for OS and size, it's difficult, "one size fits it all" does not apply. I'm really enormously fond of that Android 8" thing, don't want to name it for a third or fourth time here, but it's so cute, brilliant quality, and you can take it everywhere; it's got just the right size (and good resolution) for even looking up data and such, but it's not too big to go in your hand or in your purse. But for a quick glance in the car when driving AND getting all the necessary info you need, it's simply not big enough. And then, you always need to take it with you, some 500€ 10" or 12" device clearly visible in a parked car is an invitation to take it immediately away from you. So, even if you were willing to buy 2 such devices, which I'm not really, you would have to take the bigger one with you all the same, so to buy the 8" one for convenience reasons is thought to short since you will then have 2 of them to carry with you.

Which means when you need 10", you'll have to buy them, and then you will them carry around anyway, convenient or not, so no need for an additional 8". The S2 is available in 9.7", too... So no mobile ListPro for me, probably. I'll need it in Summer (travel season)...

Tablet prices have risen sharply in the E.U. but E.U. allows to send hardware back after trialing for some days, so I'll have to well prepare my double trial software-wise, and then I need both iPad and another tablet to be delivered more or less at the same time, and then I should even try them both in parallel for navigation, gps receiver quality and all. That's immoral, but prices are immoral, too: Apple prices anyway, and surprisingly, the Korean's prices do not show real clemency either. Well, they have big losses battery-wise to recover from.

But oh well, you know something about navigational matters!

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2017, 08:31:35 PM »
This made me spontaneously laugh out, not because I don't believe this but to the contrary, admirably, I believe you 100 %, you're an expert in these questions and know what you do, even in the wilderness.

I am far from being an expert, I'd be lost in any area without any form of topography, (eg. sand deserts, sea), my experience is predominantly 4wding, I am always going to be located on a track of some kind, that narrows things down considerably.

I carry a GPS to know where I am and to keep a track of where I have been, not to indicate where I should be going.

An old saying: A GPS will show you the shortest distance between your location and your destination, a map will show you how to get there without going through a crocodile infested swamp and over a cliff.

xtabber

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2017, 07:30:04 AM »
An old saying: A GPS will show you the shortest distance between your location and your destination, a map will show you how to get there without going through a crocodile infested swamp and over a cliff.

That is no doubt still true when you are traveling in the wild.

It is no longer the case in heavily traveled areas and particularly in urban areas, at least in the U.S., where coordinates from a GPS get augmented by a large amount of information about local conditions from a variety of sources, most notably other users in your immediate area.

I still rely on maps for planning, but now I nearly always use a GPS when I'm driving, to get up-to-the-minute information about traffic and road conditions around me, as well as reasonably accurate estimates of ETA.  That doesn't mean I blindly follow the GPS advice, particularly when I know an area reasonably well, but I do pay attention and take any additional information it provides into consideration.


kalos

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2017, 06:16:15 AM »
Sorry but your recommendation to buy the Xiaomi seems not good.

The phone somehow disconnects from the network in the mornings after I leave it charging next to by bed. It has been a couple of mornings that they tried to call me and the phone didn't ring at all and they said that the call could not go through. However, there is no miss call on my phone. Then, I restart the phone and I get message for missed calls.

This is so crucial problem, not to be able to receive calls. I never trusted anything chinese and this comes to justify my opinion. Chinese companies, people, technology, etc are decades back, their quality is not just low, it's absolute crap.

Ath

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #98 on: February 02, 2017, 10:36:20 AM »
@kalos: Is that phone on Android 5? In that case upgrade to 6 ASAP, if possible, I had similar issues on an original Nexus 5, and it is related to the power-management kicking in too long/not waking up when needed. It went away when I upgraded to Android 6.

If it's already upgraded to Android 6 then it could still be a power management issue, you could turn it to a lesser degree/level of power management, or turn that off.

4wd

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Re: Looking for smartphone
« Reply #99 on: February 02, 2017, 04:24:37 PM »
Sorry but your recommendation to buy the Xiaomi seems not good.

I suggest you read the thread again, I mentioned a particular model of phone that I was interested in, I didn't recommend it one way or another - I said multiple times that you need to do the research before getting anything.
I also mentioned that the MIUI OS is crap and that you should walk into a store and buy a phone because:
a) You're using the phone for business purposes. Why the hell are you buying something that is apparently a critical use item by mail order from another country where you'll have limited immediate repair/replacement options?
b) You were unwilling to do any research on the subject.

And we still have no idea exactly what phone you've bought or the OS version it's running because of your consistent lack of providing information.

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I never trusted anything chinese and this comes to justify my opinion. Chinese companies, people, technology, etc are decades back, their quality is not just low, it's absolute crap.

Then why didn't you get a Samsung S6 or S7 with optional bonus firelighter and be secure in the knowledge that you've bought quality?