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Author Topic: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN  (Read 1391 times)

taglaser62

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PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« on: March 20, 2016, 02:48:43 PM »
I have a device that is designed to resemble a HID. when it is plugged in via USB the PC will not boot. if i put it in after boot it functions correctly. in have used this same device on advantech pca-6010 SBC's  with award bios. my current problem is with a pca-6028 SBC and american megatrends bios. justs keeps rebooting to "fix windows" or "start normally" screen. neither will boot.

i have looked into bios boot sequence. boot order is CD then HDD, there is no USB listed in boot order.

i have reinstalled win 7 pro and done all updates. i also installed all drivers that came with PCA-6028 SBC.

unplugging usb device at boot is not feasible. this is a production machine and operators that might shut it down / start it up can not be unplugging / plugging USB's.

i can get it to boot when device is not plugged in. just do not know what to alter so that the next boot with it plugged in is successful.

almost seems like the bios does its thing but then the very early stages of the win 7 pro boot up does not like something about this device.

I have contacted the USB mfgr & PC mrgr to no avail.

i am looking for recommendations for hw or sw that might be used to delay power to this usb port.

i also saw a 2005 thread ( http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=28940.msg270246#msg270246 ) on using windows DEVCON with windows Scheduler to turn usb port off at logoff and on after boot, but i do not know anything specific about ho to do this or if it will really work.

what is the latest thinking on this?

4wd

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2016, 05:03:03 PM »
You could use Devcon with a Logoff/Logon script under Group Policy Editor:

2016-03-21 08_46_40.pngPC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN

Logoff: devcon disable "@ ....."

Logon: devcon enable "@ ....."

You need the Hardware Instance ID Device Instance Path, (eg. see this example), obtained from Device Manager.

This assumes, of course, that it's not really the BIOS that is the problem - I have the same thing with one computer if a flash drive is plugged in at boot.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 07:25:05 PM by 4wd, Reason: Got my values mixed up from Device Properties »

taglaser62

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2016, 07:53:34 PM »
thank you for your reply.

so let's see if i have this right...
1. install DEVCON on PC (BTW the file devcon.7z in example thread would not run / open / extract - do you a place i can get just it?). I take it that LGPE script calls devcon and I do not need to put devcon somewhere so it runs each boot up.
2. find HW ID(s) for violating USB device (if more than one is listed then do i disable and enable all of them? see file i attached showing multiple)
3. in LGPE / local computer policy / user config / windows settings / scripts (logon/logoff) i would put in scripts you listed with HW ID(s) i looked up.

so i would then NOT use windows scheduler?

does the LGPE run before the programs in startup folder? (the ones that use the USB device in question). i hope so.

on another note i am having trouble getting LGPE to run on my home PC. getting "MMC could not create the snap-in".
not listed as an available snap-in in MMC
may not be issue when i get back to the actual PC at work tomorrow.


« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 08:44:34 PM by taglaser62 »

4wd

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2016, 01:08:33 AM »
1. install DEVCON on PC (BTW the file devcon.7z in example thread would not run / open / extract - do you a place i can get just it?). I take it that LGPE script calls devcon and I do not need to put devcon somewhere so it runs each boot up.

File downloads, extracts, and runs fine here - attached as plain ZIP.

Devcon needs to be in the path or you need to put full path to it in command.

Quote
2. find HW ID(s) for violating USB device (if more than one is listed then do i disable and enable all of them? see file i attached showing multiple)

Top one is the Hardware Instance you want.  See here.

Quote
3. in LGPE / local computer policy / user config / windows settings / scripts (logon/logoff) i would put in scripts you listed with HW ID(s) i looked up.

so i would then NOT use windows scheduler?

You can use Task Scheduler instead.

Quote
does the LGPE run before the programs in startup folder? (the ones that use the USB device in question). i hope so.

This should answer your question: Logon Phase - Windows 7 Tutorial

Quote
on another note i am having trouble getting LGPE to run on my home PC. getting "MMC could not create the snap-in".
not listed as an available snap-in in MMC

Pro or Home?  It doesn't exist under Home.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 07:36:41 PM by 4wd »

Shades

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2016, 07:43:30 AM »
With decent motherboard models from 4 to 5 years back you have the option in BIOS/UEFI to control which (type of) USB devices are enabled at boot time. At least the Asus models in my possession do. In case you have no option to work with the snap-in provided by 4wd.

Where this kind of USB options are located in the BIOS/UEFI differs (a bit) with each make and model of motherboard, so you will likely have to consult your manual. Or identify which motherboard model is inside your computer and see if the manufacturer still provides a downloadable manual for it.

Software that will help you identify what hardware is inside your computer is: SIW  (available as freeware & commercially licensed), but there are quite some alternatives if you so desire.

taglaser62

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2016, 03:52:55 PM »
4WD

i installed devcon, placed it in c: root and wrote a small test batch file to execute the disable for the device in question.

pause
c:\devcon disable "@USB\VID_29BF&PID_0220&REV_0002"
pause
c:\devcon disable "@USB\VID_29BF&PID_0220"
pause

reports "no matching devices found"

suggestions?

Shades
i will look more into AMI BIOS options




« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 06:12:54 PM by taglaser62 »

4wd

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2016, 07:23:53 PM »
Sorry, my mistake  :-[ - you need the Device instance path from the device properties, not Hardware ID, (got my terms mixed up).

2016-03-22 11_18_58.pngPC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN

This value will change if you unplug it from one USB port and plug it in another, so as long as it stays in the same USB port you won't need to change the command once it's working.

ie. Here you can see the Device instance path has changed when I plugged it into another port:

2016-03-22 11_23_35.pngPC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN

You only need the one command to disable/enable, eg.

Quote
C:\>devcon disable "@USB\VID_045E&PID_0779&MI_00\6&5372223&1&0000"
USB\VID_045E&PID_0779&MI_00\6&5372223&1&0000                : Disabled
1 device(s) disabled.

C:\>
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 07:32:49 PM by 4wd »

Stoic Joker

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2016, 06:40:33 AM »
Where this kind of USB options are located in the BIOS/UEFI differs (a bit) with each make and model of motherboard, so you will likely have to consult your manual. Or identify which motherboard model is inside your computer and see if the manufacturer still provides a downloadable manual for it.

I'm with Shades on the BIOS angle. I ran into much the same issue awhile back with a headless Dell server that wouldn't boot with the (internal RDX) USB backup drive enabled. IIRC I ended up having to disable the legacy USB BIOS support - or something to that effect that sounded completely unrelated - to get the thing to finally behave.

taglaser62

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 06:27:55 PM »
thank you to all of you.

was a bios issue.

needed to disable legacy usb...

rebooted many times today with no problems!

Capture.JPGPC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN

mouser

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2016, 07:46:33 PM »
Nice teamwork  :up:

If i ever have a similar problem now i know what to do.

taglaser62

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2016, 02:05:01 PM »
well... i spoke too soon.
disabling legacy usb support allowed me to boot windows 7 pro with this specific EZB USB devise connected, but stopped mouse & keyboard support for the Acronis Rescue CD at boot which is linux based.
so i continued to go down devcon path.
with devcon.exe in root directory and using cmd i ran devcon.exe disable "@... see attached. ran okay and asked me to reboot.
i rebooted as prompted and had EZB USB unplugged. booted okay.
then i plugged EZB usb into port and ran EZB sw which did not find the EZB hw which is what we wanted to happen.
i also tested to make sure EZB sw saw hw in another port.
i then, leaving the EZB USB connected to the disabled port, rebooted, but windows would not boot.
basically same result as before devcon was run.
help!

[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]

« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 02:12:14 PM by taglaser62 »

Shades

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2016, 05:05:36 PM »
From the images you provided I see you have a PC with an older AMI BIOS. More modern versions of BIOS and/or UEFI allow for much more fine-grained control about which USB connected devices can be disabled at starting the PC.

Mouses and keyboards that are connected through USB have no need to use for the latest incarnation of the USB protocol and still chug along with the lowest version of USB they can get away with (which usually means USB 1.1). That USB standard is more than adequate for those devices, mouses only send relative position data, clicks etc. Even a fast typist cannot type fast enough to saturate the data bandwidth provided by an USB 1.1 port.

The 'USB Legacy' option in your BIOS apparently means that USB 1.1 devices are disabled at boot.

Modern versions of BIOS/UEFI are able to distinct between USB devices and allow keyboard/mouse to be enabled while other USB devices are not.
 
Not sure if there is even a BIOS upgrade for your specific motherboard model available that gives you more fine-grained control over USB devices. Upgrading a BIOS isn't very difficult and doesn't take much time. However, if anything goes wrong during this BIOS upgrade procedure, there is a distinct possibility you brick your computer.

Some older PC's have some kind of backup BIOS chip on their motherboard, but most PC's only come with one of those chips and most are soldered directly on the motherboard.
Mess it up and you can look forward to time-consuming and (very) costly repairs. If you are lucky you can get a new BIOS chip from the manufacturer or you need to hunt for
a similar chip on a spare/(not too) broken motherboard (exact same make and model as the one you have). Replacing the old BIOS chip with the new one requires some expertise as well.

This is the option in the BIOS/UEFI from my 3 year old PC that would resolve your problem.
WP_20160404_001.jpgPC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
Unfortunately your BIOS doesn't seem to have it.

taglaser62

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 01:12:39 PM »
i just installed the latest AMI bios 2.02 in 6028 SBC.
same boot issues.

with this certain usb device plugged in (EZB USB) then win 7 pro will not boot. part way through windows logo screen it reboots and bios screen comes up.
if i disable legacy usb support in bios the problem disappears, but then my acronis rescue disc (Linux) has no kybd or mouse support.(acronis wants usb legacy support enabled)

tried recommendation to use devcon script to disable port at shutdown and then restart at boot up. i disabled (did not try to automatically re-enable yet) and port was disabled (i checked it by trying to run EZB application), but at boot up with legacy usb support enabled i got same result: windows tries to start and then reboots.

i have either not found bios solution on this SBC or I have not provided the right setting or combination of settings.

other recommendations are less palatable solutions like adding a relay that disconnects power to EZB USB or a device/relay that disconnects the USB connection until after boot up. the issue with this is that there would have to be some way (handshake) of the PC telling the PLC that boot up has occurred so that power or USB connection may be remade and then the PC would have to start the application program that looks for the EZB USB. EZB USB must be connected & powered when EZB application is started. I would consider this if i could get a commercially available handshake between PC & PLC.

i notice other USB settings in 2.02 but again not sure what to set them at.
notably: under chipset\USB config\USB PRECONDITION & XHCI MODE & USB PER PORT DISABLE CONTROL.
Is there something here you would recommend to try?

ami bios & start up manual attached.

Shades

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Re: PC WILL NOT BOOT TO WIN 7 PRO WITH USB PLUGGED IN
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2016, 08:01:55 PM »
A cheaper and/or easier project would be to convert your keyboard and/or mouse to the old, but reliable PS/2 port(s) your PC is likely to have...in case you use a wired keyboard and/or mouse. Now you can disable legacy USB in your BIOS, while you have a fully functional keyboard/mouse during the boot procedure.