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Last post Author Topic: YNAB moving to a subscription model  (Read 9897 times)

Deozaan

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2016, 02:03:08 PM »
Edit: or is this one still a legit way of buying it?
Purchase Budget Software that Will Change Your Life

You can also still buy it on Steam, and get a key that works with the non-steam version.

Any opinions on where this any good for someone self-employed, or is it more aimed at those with a regular income?

It's great for folks who are self-employed! That is, if you follow the four principles of the YNAB method.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 02:13:02 PM by Deozaan »

Deozaan

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2016, 12:59:27 PM »
I wrote an email to YNAB support voicing my disapproval of the new subscription model. Part of the response I received included a link to this blog post which explained why they're changing to the subscription model:

http://www.youneedab...-ynab-business-model

Another part of the response I received said:

Quote
we’ll support YNAB 4 officially through 2016 and unofficially for as long as possible after that.


wraith808

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2016, 03:05:07 PM »
I wrote an email to YNAB support voicing my disapproval of the new subscription model. Part of the response I received included a link to this blog post which explained why they're changing to the subscription model:

http://www.youneedab...-ynab-business-model
True to a point.  But not really.  It's a smoke screen, IMO.  There are several other business models other than the upgrade every two years model.

Another part of the response I received said:

Quote
we’ll support YNAB 4 officially through 2016 and unofficially for as long as possible after that.

That's nice... and I hope they really mean that.

dr_andus

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2016, 02:40:30 PM »
Quote
we’ll support YNAB 4 officially through 2016 and unofficially for as long as possible after that.

According to this post, "YNAB 5 Is Not For Me,"
Quote
It's supported for bug fixes until 2017.

though not sure of the source of that info. But the rest of the article is an interesting read as well (contains a short review of alternatives).

wraith808

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2016, 09:23:44 PM »
Quote
we’ll support YNAB 4 officially through 2016 and unofficially for as long as possible after that.

According to this post, "YNAB 5 Is Not For Me,"
Quote
It's supported for bug fixes until 2017.

though not sure of the source of that info. But the rest of the article is an interesting read as well (contains a short review of alternatives).

Both of those statements say the same thing, don't they?

dr_andus

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2016, 06:03:50 AM »
Both of those statements say the same thing, don't they?

You might be right. I guess I read it as "including 2017," but maybe that's wishful thinking.

BTW, I listened to the podcast the author links to and found it quite helpful as an intro to YNAB (though I might be really late to this party...)

Quote
The YNAB implementation is unique in the finance management software market but it's based on a simple model called "envelope budgeting." YNAB preaches "give every dollar a job" and the desktop app does a good job encouraging proper budgeting. I've discussed this at length on Nerds on Draft episode 19.

dr_andus

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2016, 02:40:49 PM »
YNAB 4 users out there. Would you still recommend for a newbie to buy YNAB 4 at this stage?

I'd be running it on a fairly new Win7 laptop that I hope to keep for for some years (and unlikely to upgrade to Win10).

What could go wrong when support runs out at end of 2016? Would that mean it may no longer be possible to download account data from banks?

I'm just trying to weigh up the pros and cons of investing money, time and energy to learn this thing.

Deozaan

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2016, 03:14:29 AM »
YNAB 4 users out there. Would you still recommend for a newbie to buy YNAB 4 at this stage?

What could go wrong when support runs out at end of 2016? Would that mean it may no longer be possible to download account data from banks?

If you think you can run YNAB 4 as is for years (and there's no reason to assume you won't be able to) then yes, I would recommend YNAB 4. That said, the software isn't really that special. It's the philosophy/method that is so awesome. So be sure to read up on that and use YNAB to implement and follow the method.

I don't think importing data from banks would break either, unless they change their format. You just download a CSV, OFX (Microsoft Money), or a Quicken format file of all your transactions from your bank and YNAB can import them into your accounts. There's no reason for that to suddenly break next year.

Someone told me that they'd been using really old finance software for 15 years before they switched to YNAB last year. They expect to continue using YNAB 4 for the next 15 years. :)

I suspect I will be, too. :Thmbsup:


Deozaan

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2016, 03:22:04 AM »
Along with making a backup of the YNAB 4 installer to my Dropbox, I thought it might be a good idea to archive the YNAB Method pages just in case they take them down someday. So here are the archives:



wraith808

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2016, 08:14:11 AM »
I was looking at Dave Ramsey's Offering - EveryDollar.  It looked interesting... until I looked at the privacy policy.  Then, I had the idea to look at YNAB's privacy policy.

I am never upgrading to mYNAB.

from: https://www.youneeda...t.com/privacy-policy

Quote
Disclosure of Your Information

We may disclose aggregated information about our users, and information that does not identify any individual, without restriction.

<snip />

We may disclose personal information that we collect or you provide as described in this privacy policy:

To a buyer or other successor in the event of a merger, divestiture, restructuring, reorganization, dissolution or other sale or transfer of some or all of our assets, whether as a going concern or as part of bankruptcy, liquidation or similar proceeding, in which personal information held by us about our Website users is among the assets transferred.

dr_andus

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2016, 10:25:29 AM »
@Deozaan - many thanks for your thoughts on this.

40hz

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2016, 12:50:45 PM »
If you think you can run YNAB 4 as is for years (and there's no reason to assume you won't be able to) then yes, I would recommend YNAB 4. That said, the software isn't really that special. It's the philosophy/method that is so awesome. So be sure to read up on that and use YNAB to implement and follow the method.

^Exactly this. :Thmbsup:  People don't really need financial software tools. They need a philosophy, a well thought out methodology, and a set of practical techniques to do it. YNAB provides that. The software is just icing on the cake.

Someone told me that they'd been using really old finance software for 15 years before they switched to YNAB last year. They expect to continue using YNAB 4 for the next 15 years.


It wasn't me. But I've done the same. As do most major corporations who don't ever do anything willingly when it comes to making changes to their financial software. Once they've got it debugged and customized - and it's doing what they want it to do - they leave it strictly alone. I worked in corporate accounting for several years. And the software I had at my disposal was written in either COBOL or RPG. It didn't have much in the way of bells or whistles. Most of it was strictly batch in fact. You got a two foot tall stack of "cornrow" computer output once a week that you broke apart and put into into binders - and then you did you work using those. First with a calculator and greenbar paper. Later with the only spreadsheet worth using at the time, which was Lotus 1-2-3. Not too elegant maybe. But you knew that the numbers that were on the reports the "big iron" generated were as accurate and correct as the raw data that was fed into them. You could trust what you were being told by the program. And getting it to that point didn't happen overnight.

If you told the accounting or financial planners of that era that there was going to be upgrades done every year, there would have been an armed revolt and no federally owned bird sanctuary would have been safe. Because in the finance word "If it ain't broke, then leave the bloody thing alone!" was the first, last, and only rule when it came to software.

Civilians don't seem to realize that there's seldom a good reason to upgrade financial software unless it's broken. And since the chances of breaking rise exponentially whenever you upgrade, unless there's an absolutely critical reason to bugger with something, you're far better off leaving it alone.

YNAB is coming to that realization I think, and desperately trying to figure out what to do. Their method is very simple (like any good financial method will be) - and it just works. It takes about a half hour to read through and digest it. And about a month of focused commitment to get in the habit. After that, it's yours and you don't need anything further from them.

Pretty hard to do repeat business in that scenario.

wraith808

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2016, 12:52:28 PM »
YNAB 4 users out there. Would you still recommend for a newbie to buy YNAB 4 at this stage?

What could go wrong when support runs out at end of 2016? Would that mean it may no longer be possible to download account data from banks?

If you think you can run YNAB 4 as is for years (and there's no reason to assume you won't be able to) then yes, I would recommend YNAB 4. That said, the software isn't really that special. It's the philosophy/method that is so awesome. So be sure to read up on that and use YNAB to implement and follow the method.

I don't think importing data from banks would break either, unless they change their format. You just download a CSV, OFX (Microsoft Money), or a Quicken format file of all your transactions from your bank and YNAB can import them into your accounts. There's no reason for that to suddenly break next year.

Someone told me that they'd been using really old finance software for 15 years before they switched to YNAB last year. They expect to continue using YNAB 4 for the next 15 years. :)

I suspect I will be, too. :Thmbsup:

The on difference that I think has to be taken into consideration is the fact that YNAB is not a native compiled application, but a combination of actionscript and flash that runs on a proprietary engine ( AIR), so it's lifetime is tied to AIR.  That conceivably doesn't mean anything different in the short term, but in the long term, could.

40hz

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2016, 12:55:55 PM »
YNAB 4 users out there. Would you still recommend for a newbie to buy YNAB 4 at this stage?

What could go wrong when support runs out at end of 2016? Would that mean it may no longer be possible to download account data from banks?

If you think you can run YNAB 4 as is for years (and there's no reason to assume you won't be able to) then yes, I would recommend YNAB 4. That said, the software isn't really that special. It's the philosophy/method that is so awesome. So be sure to read up on that and use YNAB to implement and follow the method.

I don't think importing data from banks would break either, unless they change their format. You just download a CSV, OFX (Microsoft Money), or a Quicken format file of all your transactions from your bank and YNAB can import them into your accounts. There's no reason for that to suddenly break next year.

Someone told me that they'd been using really old finance software for 15 years before they switched to YNAB last year. They expect to continue using YNAB 4 for the next 15 years. :)

I suspect I will be, too. :Thmbsup:

The on difference that I think has to be taken into consideration is the fact that YNAB is not a native compiled application, but a combination of actionscript and flash that runs on a proprietary engine ( AIR), so it's lifetime is tied to AIR.  That conceivably doesn't mean anything different in the short term, but in the long term, could.


You could just read their method and do it on a a couple of spreadsheets if it ever did stop working. IIRC, they came up with it using nothing but paper and highlighters.

dr_andus

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2016, 02:24:11 PM »
The on difference that I think has to be taken into consideration is the fact that YNAB is not a native compiled application, but a combination of actionscript and flash that runs on a proprietary engine ( AIR), so it's lifetime is tied to AIR.  That conceivably doesn't mean anything different in the short term, but in the long term, could.

Argh, I didn't realise that... I've got the file but haven't installed it yet. I just remember uninstalling AIR years ago, as it was such a resource hog and the massive updates drove me crazy.

But thanks for all the suggestions about learning the method, I'd be interested in learning that, my original idea was to do my DIY spreadsheet anyway.

wraith808

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2016, 03:04:30 PM »
YNAB 4 users out there. Would you still recommend for a newbie to buy YNAB 4 at this stage?

What could go wrong when support runs out at end of 2016? Would that mean it may no longer be possible to download account data from banks?

If you think you can run YNAB 4 as is for years (and there's no reason to assume you won't be able to) then yes, I would recommend YNAB 4. That said, the software isn't really that special. It's the philosophy/method that is so awesome. So be sure to read up on that and use YNAB to implement and follow the method.

I don't think importing data from banks would break either, unless they change their format. You just download a CSV, OFX (Microsoft Money), or a Quicken format file of all your transactions from your bank and YNAB can import them into your accounts. There's no reason for that to suddenly break next year.

Someone told me that they'd been using really old finance software for 15 years before they switched to YNAB last year. They expect to continue using YNAB 4 for the next 15 years. :)

I suspect I will be, too. :Thmbsup:

The on difference that I think has to be taken into consideration is the fact that YNAB is not a native compiled application, but a combination of actionscript and flash that runs on a proprietary engine ( AIR), so it's lifetime is tied to AIR.  That conceivably doesn't mean anything different in the short term, but in the long term, could.


You could just read their method and do it on a a couple of spreadsheets if it ever did stop working. IIRC, they came up with it using nothing but paper and highlighters.

Dave Ramsey uses the same method.  Again, because of privacy issues (surprising because of Dave Ramsey, but oh well), I won't be using it.  But he has low tech ways of doing the same thing.

http://www.daveramse...DGETING-cEnv-p1.html

I have a whole year for NANY... maybe I'll give a try at a basic version of this...

40hz

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2016, 03:07:56 PM »
YNAB 4 users out there. Would you still recommend for a newbie to buy YNAB 4 at this stage?

What could go wrong when support runs out at end of 2016? Would that mean it may no longer be possible to download account data from banks?

If you think you can run YNAB 4 as is for years (and there's no reason to assume you won't be able to) then yes, I would recommend YNAB 4. That said, the software isn't really that special. It's the philosophy/method that is so awesome. So be sure to read up on that and use YNAB to implement and follow the method.

I don't think importing data from banks would break either, unless they change their format. You just download a CSV, OFX (Microsoft Money), or a Quicken format file of all your transactions from your bank and YNAB can import them into your accounts. There's no reason for that to suddenly break next year.

Someone told me that they'd been using really old finance software for 15 years before they switched to YNAB last year. They expect to continue using YNAB 4 for the next 15 years. :)

I suspect I will be, too. :Thmbsup:

The on difference that I think has to be taken into consideration is the fact that YNAB is not a native compiled application, but a combination of actionscript and flash that runs on a proprietary engine ( AIR), so it's lifetime is tied to AIR.  That conceivably doesn't mean anything different in the short term, but in the long term, could.


You could just read their method and do it on a a couple of spreadsheets if it ever did stop working. IIRC, they came up with it using nothing but paper and highlighters.

Dave Ramsey uses the same method.  Again, because of privacy issues (surprising because of Dave Ramsey, but oh well), I won't be using it.  But he has low tech ways of doing the same thing.

http://www.daveramse...DGETING-cEnv-p1.html

I have a whole year for NANY... maybe I'll give a try at a basic version of this...

That would be awesome! Luck!! :Thmbsup:

dr_andus

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2016, 04:05:50 PM »
Dave Ramsey uses the same method.  Again, because of privacy issues (surprising because of Dave Ramsey, but oh well), I won't be using it.  But he has low tech ways of doing the same thing.

http://www.daveramse...DGETING-cEnv-p1.html

I have a whole year for NANY... maybe I'll give a try at a basic version of this...

That would be awesome! Luck!! :Thmbsup:

+1 for that!

Deozaan

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2016, 04:32:07 PM »
I am never upgrading to mYNAB.

from: https://www.youneeda...t.com/privacy-policy

Quote
We may disclose personal information that we collect or you provide as described in this privacy policy:

To a buyer or other successor in the event of a merger, divestiture, restructuring, reorganization, dissolution or other sale or transfer of some or all of our assets, whether as a going concern or as part of bankruptcy, liquidation or similar proceeding, in which personal information held by us about our Website users is among the assets transferred.

I don't see a problem with this. I mean, that's assuming that you're OK with having your data stored on their servers in the first place (which I'm not). But how can they transfer ownership without also transferring the data they have on you? There'd be nothing worth buying if they couldn't also get the customers along with the product.

Imagine if your bank merged with another bank and you were suddenly without a bank account because they didn't include a similar clause about disclosing your personal information in the event of a merger.


Deozaan

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2016, 04:44:51 PM »
The on difference that I think has to be taken into consideration is the fact that YNAB is not a native compiled application, but a combination of actionscript and flash that runs on a proprietary engine ( AIR), so it's lifetime is tied to AIR.  That conceivably doesn't mean anything different in the short term, but in the long term, could.

While this is true, I believe the YNAB installer comes with all the AIR dependencies. So I don't see why you couldn't also run the included version of AIR for as long as you could run YNAB.

At worst, you may someday require a VM of an OS that YNAB/AIR still run on. But considering that they both work on the somewhat freshly released Windows 10, I don't see this happening for many years.


Deozaan

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2016, 04:50:56 PM »
I have a whole year for NANY... maybe I'll give a try at a basic version of this...

I thought I read about it here, but looking through this thread, I can't find any reference to it. Some folks are already trying to organize an open source YNAB 4 replacement called Budget First.

You can join the discussion in the Google Group here:

https://groups.googl...#!forum/budget-first

Or you can follow the GitHub repo here:

https://github.com/B...getFirst/BudgetFirst


dr_andus

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2016, 05:15:38 PM »
One thing I don't quite understand though is that if YNAB4 is working fine and might work fine for years to come, why are so many die-hard YNAB4 fans (like Macdrifter I linked to or the above open source developers) looking for alternatives already?

40hz

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2016, 07:49:37 PM »
I am never upgrading to mYNAB.

from: https://www.youneeda...t.com/privacy-policy

Quote
We may disclose personal information that we collect or you provide as described in this privacy policy:

To a buyer or other successor in the event of a merger, divestiture, restructuring, reorganization, dissolution or other sale or transfer of some or all of our assets, whether as a going concern or as part of bankruptcy, liquidation or similar proceeding, in which personal information held by us about our Website users is among the assets transferred.

I don't see a problem with this. I mean, that's assuming that you're OK with having your data stored on their servers in the first place (which I'm not). But how can they transfer ownership without also transferring the data they have on you? There'd be nothing worth buying if they couldn't also get the customers along with the product.

Imagine if your bank merged with another bank and you were suddenly without a bank account because they didn't include a similar clause about disclosing your personal information in the event of a merger.

This is the heart of the problem. It came up already in several bankruptcy cases, and with a few companies that were selling off their assets in order to not have to declare bankruptcy.

What happens when you have a privacy policy that repeatedly assured your customers - or even guaranteed it (in those very words) that their data would never be sold or shared? Many people - and virtually every court - would interpret that as either a contract or an implied contract and therefore enforceable under law. So no worries come what may, right?

The answer is: not necessarily - and definitely not in the case of a liquidation or bankruptcy settlement. Sometimes the only asset a company has that creditors are interested in is the company's customer data. And courts have ruled that the interests of stakeholders and creditors trump the privacy rights of customers when a business is looking to settle debts or other financial obligations. And that applies regardless of whatever policy or contract the company had with its customers. In the case of bankruptcy, it was easy. Whatever deal you had with the company died with the company under current legal theory, and is therefor moot. In the case of a company doing a sell off, it's a little more nuanced. But basically the courts have sided with the people who have a financial stake in the equation over the people who were just customers. Privacy dies on the altar of commerce. Or so it would seem.

Most companies no longer make such promises. Not that it matters, because it doesn't seem to be all that enforceable. But either way, companies are now rewording things so that should something like that come up, it won't take up too much of their attorney's time to get such complaints dismissed.

It used to be said (when speaking of "free" services) that if you weren't the customer (i.e. paying money for it) you were the product.

Now it seems that if you deal with a business there's a very good likelihood you're going to end up being a product whether or not you're paying for what you're getting from them.

There are some people who would consider that emerging reality a form of  progress. Such people are called asshats. :-\

40hz

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2016, 08:06:33 PM »
One thing I don't quite understand though is that if YNAB4 is working fine and might work fine for years to come, why are so many die-hard YNAB4 fans (like Macdrifter I linked to or the above open source developers) looking for alternatives already?

It's called "getting ahead of the problem," I think. The "problem" being YNAB has overstepped what many of their existing customers think is acceptable behavior on their part. These people are now looking for alternatives outside of what YNAB is plannoing to do. Most of them also assume (and I'm inclined to agree with them) that YNAB has got something in the works (probably a sellout to some other entity) that they're not talking about. And whatever it is, their present user base suspects it probably isn't going to be too happy seeing it come to pass when it does.

From a technical standpoint, YNAB runs on Air. AndAir is a dead-end technology that's just waiting to tombstone. The minute a major update to Air breaks YNAB, your options will be to "upgrade" to whatever web-based product YNAB is currently planning to offer - or to find another desktop alternative. As of right now, there's nothing (AFAIK) that does exactly what YNAB software does in quite the way it does it. It is a pretty sweet app in it's present form. Sorta like so many other apps that started of clean and focused and then got wrecked thanks to feature bloat, being repositioned as an online service, or both.

wraith808

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Re: YNAB moving to a subscription model
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2016, 10:00:14 PM »
This is the bit about AIR. 
While this is true, I believe the YNAB installer comes with all the AIR dependencies. So I don't see why you couldn't also run the included version of AIR for as long as you could run YNAB.

AndAir is a dead-end technology that's just waiting to tombstone. The minute a major update to Air breaks YNAB, your options will be to "upgrade" to whatever web-based product YNAB is currently planning to offer - or to find another desktop alternative.

I think 40 answered your question.  And with MS deleting files that don't follow their standards, I think that day might be sooner than later.
I have a whole year for NANY... maybe I'll give a try at a basic version of this...

I thought I read about it here, but looking through this thread, I can't find any reference to it. Some folks are already trying to organize an open source YNAB 4 replacement called Budget First.

You can join the discussion in the Google Group here:

https://groups.googl...#!forum/budget-first

Or you can follow the GitHub repo here:

https://github.com/B...getFirst/BudgetFirst

Yeah, I saw that.  I also saw that it's not very organized yet.  Which was the reason that I was thinking about trying a simple one myself.  They don't even know what languages they are using nor what assets they have.


I don't see a problem with this. I mean, that's assuming that you're OK with having your data stored on their servers in the first place (which I'm not). But how can they transfer ownership without also transferring the data they have on you? There'd be nothing worth buying if they couldn't also get the customers along with the product.

Imagine if your bank merged with another bank and you were suddenly without a bank account because they didn't include a similar clause about disclosing your personal information in the event of a merger.

In general, they have to renegotiate to get your business... whether that's just a we're doing this, do you want to continue to use your account, rather than it being automatic.  My bank just merged with another bank.  And we had to OK our accounts being a part of the merger.

However, what I'm concerned most about is the first part.  They use the aggregates of your data.  Which means it's not as encrypted in state as they say it is.  At least, it's not encrypted to them and they make no bones about it.