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Last post Author Topic: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install  (Read 8019 times)

Innuendo

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PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« on: August 02, 2015, 10:39:52 AM »
Windows 10 is rolling out to everyone in waves & people are mostly reporting successful, happy upgrade experiences. I was one of those people...well, I was after I surmounted my unhappiness about my Windows 10 upgrade not triggering in a timely manner, but a quick download of the Windows 10 Media Creation Tool cured that.

Windows 10 ran great (other than a few small quirks)when it installed over the top of my Windows 8.1 Pro installation and I was pleased. Well, I was pleased until the next time I fired up Directory Opus. I like to keep a clean C drive. It's where I have my OS and apps installed so I like to keep a clean, organized directory structure. My other drives can get a little chaotic and free-form in their organization, but C is run like a tight ship.

What I witnessed, friends, was pure unadulterated carnage. There were new directories and files (hidden and not) strewn randomly about for as far as the file manager could see. Some of it was probably for Windows 10's new reset/restore feature...maybe. Other pieces were probably left-overs from the upgrade and yet another segment was most assuredly those files from my old OS waiting patiently in case I ever hit that "Oh no! Take me back!" button in the Control Panel in the next 30 days.

In horror I resolved right then to do a clean install so I could reign in the creeping crud. We could mark this moment in the process in many different ways. Tactical error...emotional reaction to a logical problem...and the time-honored, "Well, that was your first mistake".

The ability of Windows 10 to succesfully upgrade the myriad of different machine configurations that exist is a true testament to the Windows Insider Preview program. Microsoft made testers upgrade in place every release in order to bang out any bugs that were in place. Their plan worked.

However, past beta programs had a couple release cycles when there was a mandated clean install of the new beta release in order to make sure the OS would configure itself correctly when it encountered a blank canvas. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, Microsoft didn't have any mandated clean installs during the Windows 10 testing period and it showed.

On to our story...prepping for the reinstall was easy. As I keep only the OS and app installs on C with everything else on other drives I could jump right into the install process. Fortunately, I was smart enough when I used the Media Creation Tool to choose to download an ISO rather than the "Upgrade Me Now" option or I would have had to download Windows 10 again. Rufus did a bang-up job of converting that ISO into a bootable USB drive and I was off to the races.

The beginning of the process was very easy...Windows 10 installed on my freshly formatted SSD drive faster than any other Microsoft OS I have seen in recent memory. Just hitting skip each time in the install process when it asked for a serial key was what I read was advised and that got me through the installation. I was asked to use Microsoft login for my user ID, but I wasn't nagged and easily was able to choose to use a local sign-on. I hit the desktop and immediately checked activation status. Windows 10 was already activated.

This was going to be easy. And this is where we will put a little push-pin into the road map marking my second mistake.

I then immediately set to installing all my drivers for all my hardware. My Realtek on-board sound, my AMD graphics card drivers, and my Logitech keyboard, mouse, and touchpad drivers all installed correctly and I did a reboot as Realtek has this weird install process where it insists on installing any drivers that might be installed (even if they are stock OS drivers), reboot and then finally install the new drivers.

I got the little spinning thing for "Windows is installing updates" and it throws an error. After Realtek does its thing, I check Windows Update and it seems it tried to download its own AMD and Logitech drivers and didn't like that I had beat it to the punch. Bah...but harmless.

I then try to install updated drivers for my Intel NIC. Inte's web site says their drivers are ready for Windows 10, but it nor the "Automatic driver identifer/updater" app will recognize the Intel NIC in my PC. Wonderful. Fortunately, the driver MS provides is full-featured so I'm not missing much there.

On to the printer...Epson's wonderfully archaic software, which they insist is Widnows 10-ready *but* was released in 2013, will not detect my Wi-Fi printer for anything. I tried numerous things, Googling, and no dice. When I went back to Epson's web site not even 15 minutes later, I received a message stating their web site was down for maintenance. Was the Universe trying to tell me something?

Oh, and during troubleshooting my printer issue I discovered that Windows detected and configured my desktop PC with a wired ethernet connection as being on a public network! Oh, bloody hell....and if you think that there is a setting somewhere within Windows where someone could toggle between private and public networks then you can go take a seat on the left side of the room with all the sane people. Unfortunately, all of the Microsoft employees will be sitting on the other side of the room because no such function exists.

Luckily, a quick internet search enlightened me as to a bit in the registry I needed to flip in order to fix that. Not so luckily, I thought that might have been the problem with the printer so I went through all the troubleshooting steps again needlessly because that did not fix the problem.

Remember when I said I like to keep a clean C drive? That means I move all the locations like Desktop, Videos, Downloads, Music, etc. out of the user directory and over to my D drive. It's really easy. Just go into the folder properties of each of those special folders and use the Location tab and you can move the folder's location to anywhere your heart desires.

But...there's a bug regarding the Desktop folder! OMG! Don't do this! If you move the desktop folder then Explorer insists that the folder doesn't exist & cannot be found. It's an easy fix in the registry...but the info is very hard to find on the internet! I should have gotten a clue when, in my upgraded install, though the Desktop showed the contents of my D drive's Desktop folder, any attempts to access the Desktop folder or save something to it would result in Windows accessing the folder on the C drive.

What else....oh, I was optimizing my hard drives with the new PerfectDisk 14 Pro and tried to download something from the internet and got a blue screen "SYSTEM SERVICE EXCEPTION (NETIO.SYS)" error. It's only happened once and I haven't been able to reproduce it, but I'm very wary. Internet searches will tell you it could be anything from your motherboard to your hard drive or even your NIC...there may even be evidence it's because you weren't loved enough as a child. It's a very vague error...

There's probably been more trauma that I'm forgetting as I've most likely blacked it out of my short-term memory, but I thought I would post this as a separate thread outside of the Windows 10 mega-thred so nobody missed it. Clean installing a Microsoft OS is usually accompanied with the feeling of having a fresh, clean, trouble-free slate that has a solid foundation upon which to build. That's not the case here. It's not a bug-ridden mess, but there are enough irksome quirks that you might want to ponder carefully if that's the path you wish to take...at least until MS publishes some updates.

tomos

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 11:36:53 AM »
I sympathise :(

Quote
Oh, bloody hell....and if you think that there is a setting somewhere within Windows where someone could toggle between private and public networks then you can go take a seat on the left side of the room with all the sane people. Unfortunately, all of the Microsoft employees will be sitting on the other side of the room because no such function exists.
Quote
got a blue screen "SYSTEM SERVICE EXCEPTION (NETIO.SYS)" error. It's only happened once and I haven't been able to reproduce it, but I'm very wary. Internet searches will tell you it could be anything from your motherboard to your hard drive or even your NIC...there may even be evidence it's because you weren't loved enough as a child.
but thanks for the laughs ;D


All that stuff that broke - did that work okay with the in place install you did first?
Tom

michaelkenward

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2015, 11:40:31 AM »
Quote
Well, I was pleased until the next time I fired up Directory Opus. ....

What I witnessed, friends, was pure unadulterated carnage.

No sign of carnage in Dopus here.

MK

Innuendo

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2015, 12:44:36 PM »
All that stuff that broke - did that work okay with the in place install you did first?

Yes, everything worked okay except for the moved Desktop folder....but Windows 10 just dutifully carried over existing working settings from the previous Windows install.

Innuendo

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2015, 12:46:26 PM »
No sign of carnage in Dopus here.

Make sure you have Hidden Files and System Files set as viewable in Opus. You should see at least one directory named $BT_Windows or similar and other directories like Windows.old and Users.old, etc. scattered hither and yon. If you are on Windows 10 and you don't see them, either your file manager is hiding them or you aren't looking in the right places.

cranioscopical

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2015, 01:09:30 PM »
I thought I would post this as a separate thread outside of the Windows 10 mega-thred so nobody missed it.
Thanks for taking the time, forewarned is foreboding.
 

wraith808

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2015, 02:05:10 PM »
I thought I would post this as a separate thread outside of the Windows 10 mega-thred so nobody missed it.
Thanks for taking the time, forewarned is foreboding.
 


... Oh Chris, never change.  ;D

Curt

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2015, 03:59:07 PM »
I thought I would post this as a separate thread outside of the Windows 10 mega-thred so nobody missed it.
Thanks for taking the time, forewarned is foreboding.

^+1

However, I will change.


     furthermore, I too have a Win 10 clean_install...

michaelkenward

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2015, 04:32:57 PM »
No sign of carnage in Dopus here.

Make sure you have Hidden Files and System Files set as viewable in Opus. You should see at least one directory named $BT_Windows or similar and other directories like Windows.old and Users.old, etc. scattered hither and yon. If you are on Windows 10 and you don't see them, either your file manager is hiding them or you aren't looking in the right places.

I see them, but they are not carnage. They are what is there on your PC. Three old directories is hardly the end of the world.

The way to get rid of them is to work out how to tell Windows to clean up after itself. (Did you gpo and research that?) Variants of those folders have been there whenever anyone does an in-place upgrade, rather than a clean install. to Windows.

What you probably saw were $Windows.$BT and $Windows.$BS as well as Windows.old. Not enough to send me off in a mad frenzy.


MK

4wd

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM »
^Yes, that's all I had after both machine upgrades I've done, just the normal *.old folders and the folders containing the Windows 10 upgrade.

My fun started when I restored one of them back to Windows 8.1 via a system drive image ... only to find it wouldn't boot.  Windows 10 upgrade process had slipped an extra System Reserved partition in when I wasn't looking, had to use Paragon HDM to remove it then correct the BCD entries in the original.

superboyac

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2015, 05:29:48 PM »
thanks for the info.  I have cancelled my automatic upgrade not for any reason other than i wasn't comfortable with the way it got integrated in my windows update and task tray.  Most likely, I'll wait a year or more before making any windows 10 upgrades to my machines that matter.  windows 7 and 8.1 are running smooth right now.

one of my very knowledgeable friends did the windows 10 upgrade and is very satisfied with it.  but he does the whole xbox thing and the thing he was raving about was the tight/smooth integration with windows 10 and xbox.

Innuendo

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2015, 06:07:38 PM »
What you probably saw were $Windows.$BT and $Windows.$BS as well as Windows.old. Not enough to send me off in a mad frenzy.

Umm...there was a tone of humor and exaggeration in my OP. Sorry if you missed it. Others didn't, thankfully.

Innuendo

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2015, 06:10:29 PM »
Most likely, I'll wait a year or more before making any windows 10 upgrades to my machines that matter.  windows 7 and 8.1 are running smooth right now.

Don't wait that long. You'll miss out on the free upgrade. Nothing wrong with waiting 51 weeks before claiming it, though. There's supposed to be a big patch coming to clean up nonsense bugs such as this. Industry insiders say it could be released as early as next week.

Part of the problem is programs that aren't Windows 10-ready...even if the publisher says they are.

superboyac

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2015, 07:25:43 PM »
Most likely, I'll wait a year or more before making any windows 10 upgrades to my machines that matter.  windows 7 and 8.1 are running smooth right now.

Don't wait that long. You'll miss out on the free upgrade. Nothing wrong with waiting 51 weeks before claiming it, though. There's supposed to be a big patch coming to clean up nonsense bugs such as this. Industry insiders say it could be released as early as next week.

Part of the problem is programs that aren't Windows 10-ready...even if the publisher says they are.
ok noted.  thanks.  didn't realize that.

wraith808

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2015, 08:07:33 PM »
thanks for the info.  I have cancelled my automatic upgrade not for any reason other than i wasn't comfortable with the way it got integrated in my windows update and task tray.  Most likely, I'll wait a year or more before making any windows 10 upgrades to my machines that matter.  windows 7 and 8.1 are running smooth right now.

one of my very knowledgeable friends did the windows 10 upgrade and is very satisfied with it.  but he does the whole xbox thing and the thing he was raving about was the tight/smooth integration with windows 10 and xbox.

One thing to keep in mind about Windows 7.  It is out of mainstream support right now, in the extended support period.  What does that mean?

https://support.micr.../en-us/gp/lifepolicy

or for a more to the point comparison

http://www.networkwo...xtended-support.html

superboyac

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2015, 11:24:07 PM »
thanks for the info.  I have cancelled my automatic upgrade not for any reason other than i wasn't comfortable with the way it got integrated in my windows update and task tray.  Most likely, I'll wait a year or more before making any windows 10 upgrades to my machines that matter.  windows 7 and 8.1 are running smooth right now.

one of my very knowledgeable friends did the windows 10 upgrade and is very satisfied with it.  but he does the whole xbox thing and the thing he was raving about was the tight/smooth integration with windows 10 and xbox.

One thing to keep in mind about Windows 7.  It is out of mainstream support right now, in the extended support period.  What does that mean?

https://support.micr.../en-us/gp/lifepolicy

or for a more to the point comparison

http://www.networkwo...xtended-support.html
ugh i hate this about ms.  whats happened is that ive installed windows 8 on computers i dont really care about to see how well it works.  but my main computer is windows 7.  now it's turning out that windows 8 is good, but my important activity is on windows 7.  im much less inclined to change things on my windows 7 computer because of this, so ive been holding off.  i tried once and ran into problems with uefi, so i quickly went back to the original setup.  i guess i'll have to plan for this eventually.

you cant admin windows 2012 servers remotely from windows 7.  very annoying.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2015, 11:40:50 PM »

ugh i hate this about ms.  whats happened is that ive installed windows 8 on computers i dont really care about to see how well it works.  but my main computer is windows 7.  now it's turning out that windows 8 is good, but my important activity is on windows 7.  im much less inclined to change things on my windows 7 computer because of this, so ive been holding off.  i tried once and ran into problems with uefi, so i quickly went back to the original setup.  i guess i'll have to plan for this eventually.

you cant admin windows 2012 servers remotely from windows 7.  very annoying.

Yep. And I have been pondering all that from the other end sitting on XP with the plan to see what Win10 looks like ... and we're starting to see stuff. And all the stuff you guys solved, any one of them would sink me. But I knew these would be the "fresh out of the box" woes. But I am waiting for the tech news to catch up in a few months half way into the year period with hard commentary of "okay, so the driver issues are fixed mostly, what do we all think about this beast in general?"

Especially because by then we should see a couple of their "forced rolling release patches" in effect.


Deozaan

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2015, 01:05:46 AM »
One thing to keep in mind about Windows 7.  It is out of mainstream support right now, in the extended support period.
ugh i hate this about ms.

I think it's unfair to expect Microsoft to support old software.

They're still releasing security updates. But they're not going to be adding new features. I don't find that unreasonable, especially since they consider Windows 7 to be two "generations" old at this point.


Stoic Joker

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2015, 06:53:54 AM »
On to the printer...Epson's wonderfully archaic software, which they insist is Widnows 10-ready *but* was released in 2013, will not detect my Wi-Fi printer for anything. I tried numerous things, Googling, and no dice. When I went back to Epson's web site not even 15 minutes later, I received a message stating their web site was down for maintenance. Was the Universe trying to tell me something?

Welcome to counter intuitive land - I got burnt there once too :D

I'm guessing you went for the 'The printer that I want isn't listed-->My printer is a little older. help me find it' options. I tried it with a LaserJet 4050 and 24 hours later it still hadn't seen the damn thing (but the search ground on..).

Assuming the Epson uses a typical driver, pick the bottom option (Add a local or network printer with manual settings).
Select Create new port, and pick Standard TCP/IP port. It will probably auto configure with the most common Protocol=RAW Port=9100 options.
Then hand feed it the driver and you should be good.

The key is to get the driver installed and the printer object created...then you can fiddle with the port configuration if/as necessary.

Worst case, you'll have to use another machine to see what the Epson uses for the port configuration. But generally when you do create new TCP/IP port it will find the correct settings on it own.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2015, 09:34:11 AM »
I think it's unfair to expect Microsoft to support old software.

They're still releasing security updates. But they're not going to be adding new features. I don't find that unreasonable, especially since they consider Windows 7 to be two "generations" old at this point.

What's not clear at all to me is what the "generations" policy becomes with Win10's "Last big generation ever!" philosophy. And then it changes what "old software" means as well. Will it start to look like Apple's "OS X" that has "sorta" been going on for a decade, but "really we only support the last x releases"?

And while we're all still hung up this month on install glitches, I can't begin to fathom the replacement for how we used to do stuff - "what version of the OS do you have". How does that tie into their rolling feature packs?


wraith808

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2015, 09:39:18 AM »
One thing to keep in mind about Windows 7.  It is out of mainstream support right now, in the extended support period.
ugh i hate this about ms.

I think it's unfair to expect Microsoft to support old software.

They're still releasing security updates. But they're not going to be adding new features. I don't find that unreasonable, especially since they consider Windows 7 to be two "generations" old at this point.

Agreed.  This was more of a PSA and FYI than anything else.  They have perfectly reasonable EOL procedures, IMO.  But, the more you know... and that was the only reason for this.

Innuendo

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2015, 06:24:01 PM »
Assuming the Epson uses a typical driver, pick the bottom option (Add a local or network printer with manual settings).
Select Create new port, and pick Standard TCP/IP port. It will probably auto configure with the most common Protocol=RAW Port=9100 options.
Then hand feed it the driver and you should be good.

Well, it's an all-in-one. I can choose the driver and the printer will work, but that doesn't fix the scanner or fax portion of the equation. It's okay...I have other systems in the house I can use to print if need be till Epson gets their crap together.

Innuendo

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2015, 06:25:36 PM »
Performing due diligence and posting a follow-up to my SYSTEM SERVICE EXCEPTION (NETIO.SYS) error...

Turns out the culprit was AdGuard's WFP driver that allows ad-blocking in Modern apps. Since I never use Modern apps, I turned it off and hopefully this problem is perpetually in the rear view mirror.

TaoPhoenix

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2015, 06:35:45 PM »
...hopefully this problem is perpetually in the rear view mirror.

There's a Meatloaf song about that! : )


JavaJones

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Re: PSA: Woe to Thee Who Performs a Windows 10 Clean Install
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2015, 07:19:34 PM »
It's an entertaining story of wonk, but... isn't most (if not all) of this due to A: old hardware/software, and/or B: semi-unusual configuration changes (e.g. moving the Desktop folder)? Don't get me wrong, I get that this stuff worked in your previous setup (also a Microsoft Windows OS) so you have reason to believe it should still work (though you did seem aware that moving the user data folders has some risk/wonk to it). But as far as a general warning goes, it seems more like "If you're a power user who likes to heavily customize your OS, be gentle with Win 10 for now". :D Honestly I'm not even clear on what problems were unique to the clean install vs. the upgrade...

- Oshyan