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Browser discussion
Josh:
OK folks, after writing a fairly lengthy review at betanews http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/945720329/1, and getting a VERY nice reply review by JavaJones, I have decided to start a topic so that we can discuss browsers in general. Should it be a browser dev's job to force features on users and decide what is best for the end user security (by limiting 3rd party compatibility, settings within the browser, etc)? Should browsers fix page rendering issues internally or continue to press pages to fix the code they use?
Here are the two posts that both myself (Metshrine on betanews) and JavaJones (JavaJones on betanews) made over at the review thread.
Java, if you see this, could you add a link to this post at the bottom of your review? Thanks!
I will be posting a link to this thread in my review on betanews, if you post there, I encourage you to do the same to promote more users to join here and discuss
Patel, starting off your review by insulting people (telling someone to grow up because they dont share your view is an insult) is not going to make your review look any more credible.
You say that a user should not rate it bad because a site doesnt work with it. Tell me, does an end user (NON TECH) care about web standards or whether or not a page is feeding opera different code? No, they only care that their pages work. If a page doesnt work, I think every user has a right to rate it bad because of this. The browser doesnt allow them to do what they want to do, browse that page, and as such points SHOULD be deducted. No piece of software should get a 5/5 just because of its history, but only because of how it performs in its CURRENT STATE.
Tell me, is an average home user going to care about web standards being the reason for their pages not working? NO, the average user is just going to know "My pages dont work in opera, but they do in IE, or in Firefox. Why should I use this if the pages I use dont work in it?"
To TechGuy22
"First off users who complain about web pages not displaying properly should know more about the root causes and what opera is doing to fix them. http://operawatch.com/ne...ility.html?pollresult=1"
As I said above, us tech users (or advanced users) will understand the root of the problem, but the average home user will not. As said on the URL you provided, the main problem seems to be more that opera cannot handle the webpages that are serving the same code regardless of the browser (which I can verify, with various sites I use, is the problem for a majority of sites).
Opera has added widgets in Opera 9 beta which is similar to FF’s extensions. Opera is also the fastest browser available today take a look. http://www.howtocreate.c...wserSpeed.html#winspeed
Wrong, extensions are NOTHING like widgets. Widgets are designed to provide external use of the browser on the desktop, not provide functionality that is missing IN THE BROWSER. An extension does just that "Extends the browsers functionality". A widget allows the user to use the browsers engine to render objects on their desktop that dont require the browser's main window. Please, before you post, learn what exactly you are talking about. If Opera supported "Extensions" or "Addons", something IE and FF have supported since their inception, I believe opera would gain a whole lot more userbase. But, they CHOOSE to remain closed to 3rd parties because of security. As I've said in many past reviews, security is all well and good until it starts to affect functionality. Yes, the browser can do what its programmed to do, but if you are limiting the end user to what is included with the browser and telling them they cant addon to it, I dont forsee many users switching. Most users are content in the way they browse, they dont care that you can type "g searchstring" or use the google search bar to search, they know their google toolbar, they know it works, and they dont want to change (especially a home user). I've run into this many times on PC's I've built for users who have wondered why their favorite addon doesnt work.
Also if you do not think Opera is a great browser took a look at this review.
http://www.softpedia.com...Java-Review-14620.shtml
Why should I care about someone elses review? Please, explain that to me? I dont care if someone else rates a browser highly, if it doesnt do what I want it to, or doesnt work on sites I visit, I will rate it accordingly and for anyone to tell me I am wrong in doing so, obviously is closed minded to any other users opinions (as is the case in most fan boys of all browsers, Firefox, IE and Opera).
_________________________________________________
Opera is a browser that shows lots of promise. Aside from the rampant number of pages that cant be displayed (PROPERLY), be it due to being passed different code, or the browser just not rendering the same code appropriately, it does happen and it does happen more than I would like. Aside from that, Opera is a great browser, but its not without its faults.
Opera also fails to support many features that I use on a daily basis in other browsers.
1. Autocomplete. Opera has no way to remember previously typed entries in text fields on various sites. Again, this is due to their stance on security, but I feel this is something that should be included as even the most basic and obscure web browser solutions support this feature.
2. Form Filling. Opera supports form filling but in a very primative and tedious way. Yes, its there, but its nowhere near up to par with what it could be. Proper form filling would require the above auto-complete feature as well, so that the user could fill from previously typed entries. Yes, you can use notes, but who wants to type all of their terms into a note before they actually get to use them?
3. Bookmark Management. Something that, again, can be done in a vast majority of browsers is the ability to delete/edit bookmarks by RIGHT CLICKING THEM IN THE MENU, as opposed to using a separate window to manage them, but not in Opera. While their bookmark manager is nice, I prefer to not have to open a new tab to manage my bookmarks.
4. The wand. This is a feature that sorely needs work. One, you cannot use the wand button until the page completely loads (or you hit the STOP button) without moving to the keyboard to press the key combo.
Opera seems more committed to incorporating features which only a NICHE group of users will use; I.E., Widgets, Torrent support, Voice capability, etc. These are nice features for those that would use them, but I dont think that a majority of users will bother with them or even care about them. Opera seems to not impliment many features several users request (One common one I see is roboform support, which makes up for what the wand and opera lack in form filling/password saving. They do this from a security standpoint, and as I said before, security is good until it interferes with what could be great functionality to the user.
Extensions/Addons are one thing I think Opera sorely needs. They could add a warning that appears each time one is installed warning the user of risks of such extensions, and if they click yes, then that means they understand. Or perhaps, even only allow TRUSTED extensions that have been opera approved. That would show that the extensions meet opera standards of quality. This would attract far more users than any feature they could incorporate into the browser itself.
Now, aside from the faults I've mentioned, I still use opera as my daily browser. It is quite powerful, but nowhere near as powerful as it could be. Opera is also not without its share of faults, it has had security patches that were needed. Opera has been very good about patching these holes, but that doesnt mean it is immune as several of its users like to believe and try to convince others to believe. I tend to live in the real world where any application can have security problems, and tend to not believe it when a mass group says "Oh, this piece of software makes you more secure". Security is in the eye of the beholder and you are only as secure as you are educated about web security. If an end user clicks yes to everything they see, or browses sites with questionable content and downloads, then it is on that user when they get hit by an exploit, in my opinion. We dont need a browser that tries to take every aspect of any security decision from the user, we need one that works and does what most users want. What these browser companies should do instead is try and educate the end users about web browsing. Then they could focus more on implimenting features the users really want.
Opera has earned its place on my desktop, but I do sorely miss several features that have not been implimented due to a security concern.
Summary:
Opera gets a 3/5 from me. It is far better than firefox, in this users opinion, and loads better than IE, but the faults I've mentioned above prevent me from rating this beta, and any previous beta, what I feel it will one day deserve (5/5). It is faster and lighter than any browser I have used, but that alone doesnt justify a 5/5 from me. Good job for now opera, and I look forward to your future.
-Metshrine
--- End quote ---
The next reply was by JavaJones, and here it is
First I'd like to really commend Metshrine on an extremely well-written and in my opinion very accurate, insightful review. I agree with just about every point he made.
I've been using Opera as my primary browser since they removed the ads something like a year ago and I've really fallen in love with it. To me it embodies the quality of being intelligently designed. Things like the pop-out Start Bar, intelligent tab handling (ex: click a tab a 2nd time and it goes back to the previous one), and especially the advanced history functionality are all vital to my daily browsing habits and are extremely well designed and integrated into the browser. It also has excellent support for saved sessions which is very important to me as well - I haven't lost any browser sessions due to crashes or power outtages since I have used Opera (I used Avant previously and it has this capability too, but FF does not without an extension). All of this is built in and "just works" - as it should be IMO.
All that being said I too am increasingly frustrated by the continuing rendering issues on a more-than-insignificant number of pages. As Metshrine said it really doesn't matter whose "fault" it is, Opera isn't going to get people to just do what they want and if they want to increase their market share they need to provide solutions that "just work". Sometimes it's even Opera's fault and although they're generally good about fixes, they're surprising stubborn about certain things that IMO should be fixed.
Meanwhile, as previously mentioned, they are adding on all these fairly niche, non-browser-centric features like bittorrent and voice. Who cares? Ok, with voice they are helping some handicapped people and that's great. But isn't it simply better for those people to have system-wide voice support? So why is it Opera's job to do this?
Meanwhile FF gets by virtually on the sole merit of its excellent extension system - even a lot of FF fans must agree that without extensions Opera is superior. If Opera allowed extensions it would be a hands-down winner IMO. Voice, bittorrent, etc. could all be added as extensions!
As a power user I am very frustrated by my browser deciding for me that I can't use something because it poses a "security risk". What's worse is that Opera does put a lot of power in the hands of users that could cause much greater security risks - the wand is one (though I find this very convenient and would hate to see it removed or limited). So the security argument is really pretty hollow IMO.
In the end I continue to use Opera for my daily browsing because it truly is a pleasure to use most of the time. The ability to use a program that "just feels right" is very important. But the more pages I see rendering improperly and the more cool FF extensions I hear about the more frustrated I get. I think Opera needs to take a serious look at what its userbase wants and what the greater market would respond to and make a shift for Opera 10.
They should have 2 fundamental goals for Opera 10: 1. Fix rendering issues for 95+% of sites (support this with a sponsored campaign to encourage people to report faulty sites, maybe a "report broken rendering" button in Opera - make it super easy)
2. Create a secure, easy to use, powerful "extensions"/plugin system that equals or surpasses FF's system in terms of ease and speed of development and end user ease of use.
That's all for now.
Sincerely,
A Dedicated Opera User
-JavaJones
--- End quote ---
mouser:
very well thought out responses, both of you.
Josh:
Well, it turns out that opera plans to release the latest beta build as 9.0 final ( http://operawatch.com/news/2006/06/opera-9-just-around-the-corner-grand-marketing-campaign-in-the-works.html )
Its a shame that they are planning this with the number of rendering bugs that are prevelant in the browser. Seems like they are more under pressure to just "Get it our the door and fix it later" which microsoft has been accused of so many times.
This truely is a shame when common sense gets pushed to the wayside.
zridling:
I've really enjoyed the changes in the 9.0 version and use it as my secondary browser, which is quite a lot during the day. The biggest thing I miss is hitting the ALT+D to jump to the address line (F2 is what Opera uses). And here's the funny thing: I use Opera to go to sites that don't render properly in IE! Go figure.
urlwolf:
I've really enjoyed the changes in the 9.0 version and use it as my secondary browser, which is quite a lot during the day. The biggest thing I miss is hitting the ALT+D to jump to the address line (F2 is what Opera uses). And here's the funny thing: I use Opera to go to sites that don't render properly in IE! Go figure.
-zridling (June 20, 2006, 12:43 AM)
--- End quote ---
You can change that in tools > preferences > shortcuts
do a search for 'focus address field', or 'go to page' and change the shortcut.
I just did.
Shortcut flexibility is second to none in opera.
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