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Last post Author Topic: Windows 10 Announced  (Read 153372 times)

MilesAhead

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2014, 07:50:11 AM »
The new build, 9860 is out there to play with.  No iso direct from MS though.  They want you to do the update process.  But on tenforums you can find tutorials how to extract an iso once you have the update download files.

From what I've seen it's a step backwards afa stability.  When you close a window it uses the animation API that's been there at least since Vista to shrink disappear the window.

If you try the update the fastest way is to turn off everything Update such as "automatically update drivers and apps" unless you are into apps.  Otherwise there's like 5 count ups to 100% during the install and config instead of 1 or 2.  I tried to update and it hung on Almost Ready.  My VM would boot and it said 9860 evaluation in the corner of the desktop, but I couldn't run anything to clean it up and defrag.  So I made an iso and did a clean install.  To me it looks like W8 with a bit different Start Menu.

Edit:  Even with a clean install to get stuff to work a bit better you may have to delete that $Winxxxsomething hidden folder directly under C: and defrag.  For some reason the iso extraction still has that hidden folder taking up about 340 MB.



mikiem

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2014, 12:51:44 PM »
Microsoft's primary responsibility is to its investors -- considering how many stock options they've handed out over the years, & that exec pay & longevity are tied to stock prices, there's a lot of self-serving interest there too. Don't know that we'll ever know if Ballmer & co. really thought that they could emulate Apple, or were conning Wall St., but win10 is the attempt to better define the boarders that MS can get away with & still maintain + grow customer revenues while keeping Wall St. appeased, or better yet, happy. As such, I think you'll find a lot about win10 that's not clearly defined -- it'll be a continual process over the tech & then customer previews.

That said, setup files for the 2nd released build follow somewhat the move from 8 -> 8.1 -- lots of the tools developed for that seem to work with 10 as well. One oddity is that you can't perform the update with win10 installed & booting from VHD -- there's an error message that it's not permitted.

Another oddity some of the devs might be interested in was that Bitdefender would only install via the command line with the silent flag. Same app that downloads the bits & performs the install, but it stalls with nothing displayed on screen without the silent flag. Not sure what's different there but something that'll hit some other software too I imagine.

Far as the ISOs & such, & purely FWIW, what I've been doing for a few years is capturing the partition image before setup's 1st re-boot -- kill the VM, mount the VHD & go from there. Restoring a backup as raw data is faster than expanding & then writing files/folders in my experience. After the update install there's a $Windows.~BT folder with the install.esd -- I'm working on/with that at the moment. Otherwise note that setup leaves several GB of trash behind [several just for the logs], that you'll want to get rid of via disk cleanup. If you've done the update in a VM with an expanding VHD you'll also want to compact your VHD -- mine doubled, then shrank to ~1/2.

I never liked win8's boot setup because it didn't work as well with XP Pro [I need it], so I reverted to win7's via EasyBCD. This also worked in some new installs when/where I left off the system reserved partition intentionally. Win10 is a bit different in that respect. The initial preview release worked well with 8.1's c:\ bootmgr -- this 2nd release requires it's own, yet broke win7's that had been installed & working fine, so I had to repair it with EasyBCD [works in win10 TP 64 BTW].

Really, REALLY FWIW, found win10's optional theme, & wallpaper image of a shipwreck underwater, to be surprisingly appropriate at times. :)

mikiem

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2014, 01:13:18 PM »
Quote
I tried it with the 32-bit ISO and it warned me about needing to enable PAE, so I enabled it and got to the setup screen. Then I mounted the 64-bit ISO and rebooted my VM and it worked. So maybe I needed to enable PAE to get it to work?

From what I've read that is a requirement -- the only change from win7's requirements AFAIK.

Quote
Heh.  The Admin on W9 Forums had to scramble to change everything to Windows 10.

From what I've read win9 was how it was referred to internally. I've read polished PR type statements on why 10, but what makes sense to me is a rumored leaked statement that said with the 9 in there lots of software recognized it as 98.

Quote
Interesting to note that Google (perhaps a competitor MS should keep an eye on) goes out of its way to stress that it has no intention of forcing the merging of its desktop and mobile operating systems:
Don't Expect Android and Chrome to Merge Soon, Says Google Exec

But under the hood aren't they moving more in that exact direction?

Quote
Well, I don't plan to mess with pre-release versions, but I'll exactly be trying a dual boot (with lots of help!) on the final version of Win 10 next year.

If you're in 7 you can put it on a VHD & boot to it to give a look, check compatibility etc. I mentioned in my other post that I liked to capture the partition image before setup reboots for the 1st time. I created/mounted a VHD, restored that backup to that VHD, ran EasyBCD to add it to the boot menu -- couldn't have been easier. Restarted the PC, selected the win10 TP, & setup finished just fine.

Then came the bad news as it wouldn't let me update builds with win10 installed to a VHD, though it should work to get your feet wet & make sure everything worked OK for you. If it doesn't you just need to delete the VHD file & reset your boot menu, as opposed to creating a new partition & all. When I found out it wouldn't update builds I did another partition image backup, restoring it to a partition on a HDD, adjusting the menu in EasyBCD & it booted as if nothing had changed. IOW if you try it on a VHD, & like it, your work is not wasted at all.

fredemeister

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2014, 03:24:02 PM »
The acid test will be when somebody who has used only Win XP or 7 installs it or gets a machine with it new and tries it out.

I started in computers with banking data in the '70s, then PCs in the late 80s.  Unix to DOS, then Windows 2.0 through XP.  Retired May 2014, but continue archival intranet coding for various groups.  Surprisingly an interesting task that produces a lot of satisfaction and unusual challenges from time to time.

My thoughts on W10
-------------------

Intro: I realise it's unfinished software, and buggy.

1.  It's not that intuitive - whatever that means - I've been running XP since it came out, as well as Mint.  Never tried Vista 7 or 8.  W10's "Libraries" are complicated, and I don't like the "everything in one spot" approach, so am seriously thinking of setting up custom menus and toolbars as I have in XP.
2.  The start menu is full of rubbish, and that takes time to cleanup.
3. And the process for sticking stuff on the taskbar means it often has to be stuck to the start menu first.  ????
4.  Firefox 32/33 crashes regularly for no apparent reason.
5. Since MS updated the build to 9860, the OS takes ages to boot to a usable state.
6. A lot of stuff is managed by the Windows Store, requiring a MS account and the cloud.  Didn't Apple bashers complain about being tied into that infrastructure?  Wonder how the same argument applies now that MS is doing similar.
7.  Hate the "tile" icons.  Even I could make better than those, and I'm not a coder or graphics person.
8.  In File Explorer there's no horizontal scrollbar on the left pane folder view.  Apparently when the mouse moves to the right-side of that pane the border moves?  Nope!

There's some nice stuff - like these things:

1. The way windows disappear/close - only since the build update.
2. Snapping Windows.
3. God Mode.
4. Clickable path links in the address bar - like breadcrumbs in a browser.
5. Tiles are "Windowed" and not full screen.
6. OS is fast response and snappy, very little lag.  Nice.

<rant>

However ... all I want to do is "USE" my pc, not reconfigure it completely to how I had it before.  Security's supposed to be much improved ... yep, but my gripe is that a pc is a TOOL, not a &^%*$ lifestyle.  Keep user stuff simple, allow me to pick up the new bits and pices without having to enrol in University to learn to use the thing; and keep stuff outa my face.  Microsoft, are you listening?  Nope.  I've got over the initial "where is this hiding", and "oh %$##, how do I do this", scare;  like a lot of W10, but I might stick with Mint and XP when the Preview expires - unless MS gives a good incentive to dump XP and Mint.

W10 doesn't allow me to do my job any better, easier, or more efficiently.  It may well be more secure, and have less overhead for "obsolete" equipment - supposedly anything older that yesterday; but I have to spend a ridiculous amount of time learning how to use it.  It doesn't make me feel more comfortable, happier, satisfied or even more secure.  Just makes me angry.

</rant>


PC Stats:
Pentium Dual-Core E5300 @ 2.60GHz 64-bit, 4GB RAM, NVIDIA FeForce GT610, 3xIDE HDDs and 3xSATA1 HDDs, 2x19" Samsung SyncMaster monitors, Win XP SP3, W10 Linux Mint16 loaded on 3 separate hdds.

dr_andus

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2014, 07:11:24 PM »
Quote
Interesting to note that Google (perhaps a competitor MS should keep an eye on) goes out of its way to stress that it has no intention of forcing the merging of its desktop and mobile operating systems:
Don't Expect Android and Chrome to Merge Soon, Says Google Exec

But under the hood aren't they moving more in that exact direction?

Yes, but they seem to be a lot cleverer about it. While MS tried to ram Win8/Metro down everyone's throat, whether you had a touch screen, a tablet, or not, Google is doing it one step at a time, and it almost wants to be begged into it by the users. It's possible now to run some Android apps on your Chromebook, but Google is not forcing anyone to use them or even to try them.

MilesAhead

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2014, 06:05:14 AM »
My thoughts on W10

As I moved from XP to Vista, W7, W8 and now I've tried both builds of W10 in VMs the thing that gripes me most, other than having "Apps" forced on me even though I have no use for them, it that each OS seems to add yet another Layer where your user account supposedly in the Administrators Group, has fewer privileges to do mundane things.  OK I don't mind if it asks me if I really want to run an exe the first time around if I just downloaded it.  That makes sense.  But having to do stuff like take ownership of the Program Files tree just to avoid running every little program that updates an .ini file in its own folder, as administrator, is silly.  Each release it's more of these distractions even when I put UAC to the minimum.

Also I notice my small ahk Tray programs that do simple things like watch the active window for Folders and add them to an MRU list, or that just moves windows around, have to be run as Administrator.  For this reason they may not start with Windows simply by adding a shortcut to the user's StartUp Folder.  I suspect the Start Screen business adds another layer in the way of the desktop.  But I'm not sure of the nature of it.


The other thing that annoys me is they jettisoned Glass.  It takes a lot of User Draw code just to write text on Glass.  It's very annoying to program.  But it looks cool.  Having gone to the effort of using a bit of it here and there to make program Guis look better it frosts my ass(pun unintentional) when they just chuck my work away.  Stuff that looks good in Vista and W7 often just looks stupid in W8 and later.

They don't get the whole concept that made the PC.  The idea that I have my own computer so I don't have to ask permission from the IT Guy to do something.  They want to put an IT Guy in the cloud now to boss us all around.  When it gets unbearable maybe then people will bite the bullet and do Linux or a similar open source OS instead.


fredemeister

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2014, 03:44:49 PM »
Agree with your comments.  Technology seems to have developed the idea it's about the technology - which is fine, but it's always been about getting the job done, and often that aspect falls by the wayside as eye candy intrudes into the process.

I like W10, and it may well keep me on Windows instead of full-time Linux in place of XP, but most stuff in the world now has a "don't worry, we know what you want and this is how it is.  Trust us, you'll see." type of approach.

I can cope with change - Windows XP DID NEED and still does need security work - but wholesale change?

Having said that, I'm complaining at the beginning of a project, without having too much interest in MS' future intentions, or what's under the hood.

It may well be W10 is the genesis of a common system across all devices, and if they pull that off, MS will recover a lot of customer confidence and support.  However, there's a real danger of them becoming Apple-like - tied to an infrastructure.  Apple do it well, although it doesn't please everyone - I just wonder if MS have the ability to be successful in that arena, particularly regarding "quality" and "it just works".

Time will tell.

superboyac

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2014, 05:37:20 PM »
The complaint that stands out to me is the Windows Store one.  I don't want to log into MS every time I use my computer.  I want to log in...when I need to!  I'll log into windows store when I need to buy something.  I'll log into MS Live stuff through the applications.  I don't want to log in to these things perpetually.  On Windows 8, you have to go through a few maneuvers to do this, and it breaks the windows store.  Hopefully that option still exists.  And I don't want to be forced to download software from the windows store, I'd like to also be able to download directly from the developer's site.

MilesAhead

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2014, 06:02:44 AM »
I'm not all that thrilled either with the idea of having to update by being hooked to MS on some network.  People keep forgetting about the index.dat files.  If they did sneaky spying that way just image how much time is spent "looking around" on your system while "updating" your software.

From what I've heard they've stopped making index.dat files on the new flavors since everyone is wise to them and knows how to delete them.  I'm not sure what the new method of browser tracking is but there must be a blog about it somewhere.

Arizona Hot

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« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 03:58:21 PM by Arizona Hot »

TaoPhoenix

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2014, 05:06:59 PM »
The acid test will be when somebody who has used only Win XP or 7 installs it or gets a machine with it new and tries it out.

Sorry for mini-necro'ing this post, but once we're past any pre-release bugs, I am right in this category - except some brief Win 7 use at a job, I have mostly only used XP. I am waiting for the final build and hoping my aging hardware can run it.

I'll be interested in the UI usability - I had a chance to dabble with Win 8 on an acquaintance's machine, and it was every bit as irritating as publicized.




TaoPhoenix

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2014, 05:21:09 PM »
I can cope with change - Windows XP DID NEED and still does need security work - but wholesale change?

Having said that, I'm complaining at the beginning of a project, without having too much interest in MS' future intentions, or what's under the hood.

Then again, we're all on XP SP3, with x other updates since then. But the original XP was junk! Win2000 was my choice for an earlier older machine while early XP was evolving.

So even if it takes until SP1 to tweak stuff, (notice they started doing that with Win 8), I'm okay if Win 10 needs to evolve.

But they seem to be churning out the OS'es too fast ... it's one reason I stayed here on Windows - I didn't want to deal with being 5 OS'es behind and get "oh look, new apps won't run".

I'm sure MS vowed never to let an OS get entrenched like XP again ... but this "New OS for the New Year (NONY!)" style is really irritating!


MilesAhead

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2014, 02:40:39 PM »
It occurs to me that the means of distribution of the Windows Ten Technical Preview has the effect of culling those participants who cannot get it to run well enough to do the in place update.

The only ISO made available after the 9841 build is the Enterprise evaluation in which you cannot save any changes.  Hmmmm.


Edit:  Since I have VMWare Player to play with I decided instead of installing Debian based flavors of Linux I'd just try straight Debian.  But that should be in another thread.  :)


Arizona Hot

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MilesAhead

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2014, 12:16:59 PM »
Someone on TenForums posted they had no problem doing a clean install with the 9879 Enterprise ISO.  So I don't understand the stuff about not being able to save changes.  Maybe it's just there to discourage those out of the loop or something.   :huh:

Arizona Hot

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Arizona Hot

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Arizona Hot

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panzer

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2014, 03:05:44 AM »

Innuendo

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2015, 11:51:54 AM »
With work and studies I haven't been paying too close attention to Windows 10 until now. Now I'm sitting here pondering installing the latest Preview. Unfortunately, what's holding me back isn't the OS itself, but rather support for my favorite apps. Might be time to set up a VM and give it a go.

My tip for those who are trying to adapt to Windows 8/10 coming from older OSes is that you are only going to get frustrated if you try to force the new OS to have the same workflow as your old OS. Relax, keep an open mind, and explore the new tools Microsoft has supplied you. Adapt yourself to a new workflow using the new tools in the new OS and you will eventually reach a point where you are much more productive than you were with your old OS. Some stuff won't make sense at first. Some stuff will never make sense. But some stuff will eventually click with you and a day will come when if you are ever sitting in front of that old OS you'll wonder how you ever used such an archaic thing.

Honest.


TaoPhoenix

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2015, 02:20:10 PM »
My tip for those who are trying to adapt to Windows 8/10 coming from older OSes is that you are only going to get frustrated if you try to force the new OS to have the same workflow as your old OS. Relax, keep an open mind, and explore the new tools Microsoft has supplied you. Adapt yourself to a new workflow using the new tools in the new OS and you will eventually reach a point where you are much more productive than you were with your old OS. Some stuff won't make sense at first. Some stuff will never make sense. But some stuff will eventually click with you and a day will come when if you are ever sitting in front of that old OS you'll wonder how you ever used such an archaic thing.

Honest.

I dunno, I think I disagree with this.

I have lukewarm positive reviews of Windows 7, and that's my "emergency" fallback in case my grander experiments with Win10 don't work.

I don't like the idea of "here's your new workflow, deal with it". If nothing else, this is *the* board to fill in gaps that are missing, between Nany's (maybe with an extra feature added on request), and the smaller coding snacks, over a base of other people's big ticket utilities.

Take for example the Start Menu. Time has passed, and after MS did its best to bluster its way through it, Win10 now is going back (sort of) to having Start menu variants. Until then, there were utilities that "put the OS back in its place where it belonged".

Unlike maybe making the transition between Windows and Linux (sorry, that's far harder than some people think for poor humanities birdies like me!), there's nothing fundamentally profoundly different about these new Windows versions other than MS playing games via their marketing department. So no, I don't care to just lie down on MS's train tracks and "wait for the 10 train to roll me over."

The last time this happened was MS Office and the famous 2007 Ribbon. No. So I installed a utility that darn near mostly put the old controls back *on top* of the ribbon so I could use both to my heart's content.

The only big ticket thing I don't know is if my project comp hardware can handle it - it's right on the cusp, and it's gonna be close.


MilesAhead

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2015, 03:32:21 PM »
Might be time to set up a VM and give it a go.

Just thought I'd let you know.. I had problems with the original W10 preview x64 iso and VMWare Player 6.x. (The install hung at 50% Setting Up Devices.)  But after I updated the Player to 7.x the OS installed and ran smoothly.  VMWare Tools installed without problems. I haven't tried the newer builds yet with Player 7.  I've been playing with Linux VMs searching for the Glass Grail I've been hearing about with this Plasma stuff.  If installing in VMWare I suggest you do a custom install and turn off all the settings to share info and update drivers/apps.  That seems to cut the install time to about 45%.  It makes it bearable.  :)

I don't have any smart phones or tablets.  Otherwise I'd be more inclined to check out the W10 Apps. But since I'm only interested in Desktop stuff at present, it looks more like W7 and Linux multiboot would be my speed.  I have to learn more about GPT and UEFI etc.. before installing on the metal though.

Aside from all the Apps vs Desktop and plain Jane UI vs Glass, it seems each release of Windows sticks more stuff between the OS and the user.  It's to the point where just reading windows and moving them on the desktop requires utilities to Run As Administrator.  A bit silly really.  :)

tslim

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2015, 08:56:51 PM »
plain Jane UI
Man, my greatest hate on Win8 is the "plain Jane UI". Not only missing Glass, but the plain Jane icons.
I simply don't understand how can an "ugly icon" help in touch-capability?

Arizona Hot

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2015, 05:22:17 PM »
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 05:34:44 PM by Arizona Hot »

40hz

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Re: Windows 10 Announced
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2015, 07:27:31 PM »
The more I look at where Microsoft wants you to "go today" after Windows 7, the happier I am I made the switch to Linux. 8)