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Do we have any musical people on DC?
40hz:
@SB - really interesting article. Didn't know some of that. Thx! :Thmbsup:
Ray knows he has something special. Over the years he has it appraised a bunch of times, and he hears English, Italian, Scotch, etc. Then it turns out its a match for a bass known to be an Amati in England. The bass becomes reputed to be a circa 1640 Amati.
--- End quote ---
Postscript: The Amati assertion has always been controversial. Ive talked to at least one guy who says the twin to Rays bass in England is now believed to be a Glassel, made in Marknukeurchen
--- End quote ---
*Mini very rational 40hz rant follows. Please feel free to ignore.*
So typical with orchestral basses. :-\ The disputes that break out over exactly what a given bass is. :P
My GF's Mom is a very good violinist who played with several local orchestras. She had (allegedly - although they were both appraised and blessed off as being genuine by some big name string instrument appraisers in New York City) a Ceruti (who was a famous student of Amati) and a Guarneri. They're both fine violins with lovely but very different characters. Not the most beautiful I've ever heard. But they're up there. Especially the Guarneri. However, I've heard some modern instruments I've actually liked better. And those had neither the fancy pedigree - nor the nose-bleed inducing price tags - her two violins had. And let's not even get started on the bows - which are a whole other business and topic for debate!
I guess I just don't get it. Either when it comes to Cremona violins - or '57 Stratocasters for that matter. As long as something sounds good, is responsive, and plays well, I could care less who made it...or when...or where. But that's me. Which is to say I'm a working musician rather than an investor in rarities. Or an instrument collector.
Probably the only thing (besides transportation hassles) that I was actually glad to get away from, when I got away from playing string bass, was the mystique and nonsense surrounding the instrument itself. Sure, better instruments made by better makers (using better materials and construction methods) sounded better than those that were not. But I can't really see or hear anything that justifies some of the reputations or astronomical prices many of these "fine instruments" fetch. I have heard one or two (played by some famous players) that were amazing. But there weren't that many. Certainly not enough of them to create the industry which exists to buy and sell these things.
Sad thing is, that same nonsense is coming to the world of electric bass. There's already the 'collectable instrument' feeding frenzy starting to develop around the '60-'62 Fender Jazz and '58-'60 Fender Precision basses along with Gibson Thunderbirds from the early 60s...
I mean what is with these people? These are mass-produced manufactured instruments. In the case of Leo Fender's instruments, they were acknowledged (by Leo himself) to be designed to be as easy and cheap to manufacture as was humanly possible. Even those vintage paint jobs so prized by Fender collectors were the result of his using automotive paints purchased in odd lots from a company that was conveniently located just down the road from the Fender factory. There's a half-joke at Fender that says if house paint was as readily available, and a nickel cheaper a gallon, Leo would have used that instead.
Maybe I'll follow Carol's lead and just switch to cello. ;)
In the case of Ray Brown, I think it wasn't so much the bass itself as it was the bass + Ray Brown. Because the "thing" isn't the instrument (which is just an inert pile of metal, wood, and potential) OR the player (which is heap of DNA, biomass, and spirit) but the combination that really makes whatever magic there is.
Ok, I'm done! Carry on. ;D
Carol Haynes:
wow, that's really impressive Carol!
-tomos (January 26, 2015, 12:05 PM)
--- End quote ---
Thanks.
On instruments - modern Chinese string instruments seem to be getting there these days at affordable prices.
I bought a Chinese cello (list price around £1400, ~$2100 US) and as a student instrument it is very impressive. My teacher really likes it and I showed it to another teacher who didn;t know the history or make and she thought it was probably worth about £5000. Like all instruments there are better and worse instruments so you have to be careful.
There is a lot of snobbery about instruments and where they come from - people pay a premium just for a name. There have been Stad violins that have been more or less destroyed and then restored and they still go for silly prices even though they are mostly not Strad (and the bits that are are glued together!).
In blind testing people are often surprised at what they actually like best.
Bows are similar - some shops/dealers have trial schemes and suggest you try a bunch for a while - often it isn't the most expensive bow that sounds best though I have to say bows are a bit of a black art! Just bought a new bow which I am very pleased with but it was a nerve-wracking minefield!!
40Hz - if you can play instruments tuned in 5ths I reckon it takes about an hour to adapt to the new spacing. I have tried various cellos and they are all a bit different in size (even full size varies enormously) but I have tried 3/4 and 7/8 models too. It is surprising how quickly you adapt!
So long as you are not using German bowing on the bass cello bowing is similar but obviously lighter and more responsive than on a bass.
40hz:
40Hz - if you can play instruments tuned in 5ths I reckon it takes about an hour to adapt to the new spacing.
-Carol Haynes (January 26, 2015, 07:50 PM)
--- End quote ---
Sounds good. Besides, ascending-4ths are just descending-5ths going in the opposite direction on bass. ;D It's not that a big mental stretch to grok or use it. Most guitar players are amazed they can strum a mandolin once you tell them it's tuned like the bottom 4 strings of a guitar except going in the opposite direction. So if you use the bottom 4 strings of a guitar chord in a mirrored pattern, there's your mandolin chords!
Music is so mathematical. Probably why it's one of the few things in the world that makes absolute sense to me. ;D
re: Chinese builds
I agree. It's amazing. Any import I've seen from China that sports somebody else's name (Fender's "Modern Player" series for example) rivals or exceeds its US built counterpart. And for about one third the price. I just recently bought an electric bass made in Indonesia for Fender's Squier subsidiary label. This model is called the Vintage Modified Jaguar Bass Special. (Is somebody in marketing being paid by the word?):
Do we have any musical people on DC?
I wanted a "mainstream sound" sort of instrument, intended for use as a low-risk (i.e. "sacrifice") road bass. Turns out it's astonishingly good. The rave reviews it's gotten are spot on IMO. It's not just an inexpensive bass ($199 USD delivered!) that's "good for its price range." It's actually a rather nice instrument that is more than good enough for professional use either on the stage or in the studio. I like it so much I'm thinking of getting a second one as a backup.
Imagine...two quality instruments for the combined price of approximately five sets of Tomastik-Infeld flatwound strings. The mind boggles! :Thmbsup:
Edvard:
Speaking of which, have you seen the prices of Tokai and Samick instruments lately? Some folks got wind of the fact that some big name manufacturers have at some points in time secretly been using those guys to build their "limited-edition" and even some fill-in production runs, so now there's bidding wars on what used to be seen as cheap asian knockoffs.
So it goes... :-\
superboyac:
@SB - really interesting article. Didn't know some of that. Thx! :Thmbsup:
Ray knows he has something special. Over the years he has it appraised a bunch of times, and he hears English, Italian, Scotch, etc. Then it turns out its a match for a bass known to be an Amati in England. The bass becomes reputed to be a circa 1640 Amati.
--- End quote ---
Postscript: The Amati assertion has always been controversial. Ive talked to at least one guy who says the twin to Rays bass in England is now believed to be a Glassel, made in Marknukeurchen
--- End quote ---
*Mini very rational 40hz rant follows. Please feel free to ignore.*
So typical with orchestral basses. :-\ The disputes that break out over exactly what a given bass is. :P
My GF's Mom is a very good violinist who played with several local orchestras. She had (allegedly - although they were both appraised and blessed off as being genuine by some big name string instrument appraisers in New York City) a Ceruti (who was a famous student of Amati) and a Guarneri. They're both fine violins with lovely but very different characters. Not the most beautiful I've ever heard. But they're up there. Especially the Guarneri. However, I've heard some modern instruments I've actually liked better. And those had neither the fancy pedigree - nor the nose-bleed inducing price tags - her two violins had. And let's not even get started on the bows - which are a whole other business and arena for debate!
I guess I just don't get it. Either when it comes to Cremona violins - or '57 Stratocasters for that matter. As long as something sounds good, is responsive, and plays well, I could care less who made it or when or where. But that's me. Which is to say I'm a working musician rather than an investor in rarities or an instrument collector.
Probably the only thing (besides transportation hassles) that I was actually glad to get away from, when I got away from playing string bass, was the mystique and nonsense surrounding the instrument itself. Sure, better instruments made by better makers (using better materials and construction methods) sounded better than those that were not. But I can't really see or hear anything that justifies the some of the reputations or astronomical prices many of these "fine instruments" fetch. I have heard one or two (played by some famous players) that were amazing. But there weren't that many. Certainly not enough to create the industry that exists to buy and sell these things.
(see attachment in previous post)
Sad thing is, that same nonsense is coming to the world of electric bass. There's already the 'collectable instrument' feeding frenzy starting to develop around the '60-'62 Fender Jazz and '58-'60 Fender Precision basses along with Gibson Thunderbirds from the early 60s...
I mean what is with these people? These are mass-manufactured production instruments. In the case of Leo Fender's instruments, they were acknowledged (by Leo himself) to be designed to be as easy and cheap to manufacture as was humanly possible. Even those vintage paint jobs so prized by Fender collectors were the result of his using automotive paints purchased in odd lots from a company that was conveniently located just down the road from the Fender factory. There's a half-joke at Fender that says if house paint was as readily available, and a nickel cheaper a gallon, Leo would have used that instead.
Maybe I'll follow Carol's lead and just switch to cello. ;)
In the case of Ray Brown, I think it wasn't so much the bass itself as it was the bass + Ray Brown. Because the "thing" isn't the instrument (which is just an inert pile of metal, wood, and potential) OR the player (which is heap of DNA, biomass, and spirit) but the combination that really makes whatever magic there is happen.
(see attachment in previous post)
Ok, I'm done! Carry on. ;D
-40hz (January 26, 2015, 04:18 PM)
--- End quote ---
Good read man! glad to hear it coming from an experienced bass player, too. It's so hard for me sometimes to deal with these kinds of music pseudo-science debates! It's even hard to ignore...once the question is raised, you start to wonder, lol! Why shouldn't a new bass sound better than an old one? Because it wasn't hand crafted by the one master that ever lived? Man, so many of these kinds of conversations with musicians. I know for sure I've run a couple past you...regarding digital vs analog, recorded vs samples, etc.
And great point...the bass is good because ray brown preferred it. Not because it's the best...it could be very average! Like Willie's guitar, Trigger. He didn't even give that up when the IRS came knocking.
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