Home | Blog | Software | Reviews and Features | Forum | Help | Donate | About us
topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • December 08, 2016, 12:04:57 AM
  • Proudly celebrating 10 years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Last post Author Topic: Do we have any musical people on DC?  (Read 66024 times)

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #150 on: January 26, 2015, 08:54:03 AM »
Sorry I haven't been around much over the last few months - been totally obsessed by my cello!!!

Understandable. Being a bass player, the cello (along with the saxophone) is an instrument I always wanted to take up. Imagine...to be able to play melody for a change...can such a world exist? :)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 08:59:16 AM by 40hz »

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,986
    • View Profile
    • Dales Computer Services
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #151 on: January 26, 2015, 09:48:16 AM »
Sorry I haven't been around much over the last few months - been totally obsessed by my cello!!!

Understandable. Being a bass player, the cello (along with the saxophone) is an instrument I always wanted to take up. Imagine...to be able to play melody for a change...can such a world exist? :)

Lots of nice melodies available fro the bass - just a shame they were mostly written for the cello and a damn sight harder to play on the bass.

Cello is inconvenient for travelling but pales into insignificance with double bass hassles (I used to play bass years ago)

My advice it take the plunge -  get a cello and go for it - apart from tuning you have a good head start from bass!!

It will be 2 years in March since my first lesson and the obsession become more urgent every day - now playing in 2 orchestras and various ensembles including a cello quartet (great fun) ....  :-*

sage.jpg

From a concert last week - I am second from the right at the front

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #152 on: January 26, 2015, 11:08:07 AM »
Cello is inconvenient for travelling but pales into insignificance with double bass hassles (I used to play bass years ago)

Couldn’t agree with you more about travelling with the double bass. And I never humped anything bigger than the 3/4 size. I can only imagine what a nightmare carting the awesome 4/4 would be like. In my "union member" days we used to get a flat "cartage" fee  on top of the hourly session fee if the client insisted on hiring someone to play the "doghouse." Needless to say, Leo's Precision and Jazz basses got very popular with booking agents once their clients realized they could save some coin by not automatically insisting on a "real" double bass.

My advice it take the plunge -  get a cello and go for it - apart from tuning you have a good head start from bass!!

The tuning isn't a problem in my case. I already use a few alternate tunings on bass and guitar (on those rare occasions I get to play one.) Cello also uses the same "Ron Carter" ascending-5th tuning a piccolo bass uses - so I'm right at home. It would be more a matter of adjusting to the different scale length for me. If I can't close my eyes and (almost) always fret (or stop in the case of cello) the note I'm looking for, I know I have some work ahead of me.

If you play electric bass, give the E A D♭ G♭ tuning a try. (Think top 4 strings of guitar!) It's rather amazing. It does make a few things slightly harder to play than they would be with standard E A D G tuning. And you lose some of that lovely fingering symmetry the standard ascending-4th tuning provides. But it makes more melodic passages noticeably easier and less fatiguing to finger. And it only takes about a half hour to get perfectly comfortable with if you've been playing for a few years - or you have a guitar background, as most of the truly lousy (kidding!) bass players do.

 :Thmbsup:

tomos

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,328
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #153 on: January 26, 2015, 12:05:26 PM »
It will be 2 years in March since my first lesson and the obsession become more urgent every day - now playing in 2 orchestras and various ensembles including a cello quartet (great fun) ....  :-*

wow, that's really impressive Carol!
Tom

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,070
  • Is your software in my list?
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #154 on: January 26, 2015, 03:24:10 PM »
Cello is inconvenient for travelling but pales into insignificance with double bass hassles (I used to play bass years ago)

Couldn’t agree with you more about travelling with the double bass. And I never humped anything bigger than the 3/4 size. I can only imagine what a nightmare carting the awesome 4/4 would be like. In my "union member" days we used to get a flat "cartage" fee  on top of the hourly session fee if the client insisted on hiring someone to play the "doghouse." Needless to say, Leo's Precision and Jazz basses got very popular with booking agents once their clients realized they could save some coin by not automatically insisting on a "real" double bass.

I'm one of those guys that insists on a real bass!  Lol, that's always a tense discussion.  Here's a very nice story about the most famous bass I know of: Ray Brown's bass.  It happens to be right here in town, being played by his hand-picked protege, John Clayton (and I take lessons from his pianist!).  A bass player told me this instrument was referred to as "The Truck" for its size.
I've clipped the story below, it's a good read, from here:
(actually, reading this story, it sounds like the large original bass is with someone else.  Ray must have given Mr. Clayton his working bass, I'm guessing the smaller one.)
http://www.talkbass....s-bass.168111/page-2
Spoiler
Quote
Ok, Here goes:

http://www.brentnuss...n_bass/RBbass1cr.jpg
I was so excited I forgot to comb my hair!
http://www.brentnuss...own_bass/RBbass2.jpg
http://www.brentnuss...ass/RBbassfront1.jpg
http://www.brentnuss...ass/RBbassfront2.jpg
http://www.brentnuss...bass/RBbass_back.jpg
http://www.brentnuss...ss/RBbass_scroll.jpg

The scans are a not so good, unfortunately. Somehow there’s too much blue in there. The wall behind the bass should be just off-white, but it’s kinda bluey. And they’re kinda blurry, compared to the (very sharp) real photos. Unfortunately, when I try to compensate for it, the pictures get weird artifacts. Maybe someone knows how to fix it… Oh well, I hope you get the idea. If I ever figure out how to make better scans, I’ll put them up.

I include the picture of me playing the bass for reference, I’m 170cm (5’7”) tall. The shoulders were really big and hard to get around, as Mr. Brown said. I played the bass with the pin all the way in, and it was still tough. But what a sound. Playing this bass was maybe the first time I understood that even though some basses had great recorded sounds, what you hear in the room as another thing entirely.

Mr. Lauder told me that when Ray moved to Toronto in the early 60’s, he’d had some close calls (damage) touring with the bass, and so they struck up a deal where Ray would take Murray’s bass on tour (“which was also a good bass, but not this good”) and Murray would play Ray’s bass around town. He did studio and pit work etc. When Ray would come back into town, and Murray got his own bass back, all the producers would ask him “Where’s that bass with the holes (in the tuners)?” Eventually, Ray bought another bass, by a guy named Silvestre, from a classical teacher of his, which he then traveled with. When Ray moved to LA in 1964, he called Murray towards the end of the year and asked if he wanted the big bass. According to Murray, Ray said that it didn’t work well in the studios, it was too loud and bled into the other mics, and was a PITA to carry around. So Murray bought her from Ray. He said when he got her she had all 4 gut strings. Eventually Mr. Lauder changed to metal and had a c-extension added. About a year after these pictures were taken, the bass was sold to Mr. Longenecker. Murray had told me he was going to sell it, and how much he was asking, but told me he wanted to sell it only to a member of the TSO, and that there was “a young fellow” in the TSO who needed a good bass. The last time I saw the bass in person was just after that sale, and the new owner had put a bridge with really long legs and very little wood above the heart on it. I don’t know Mr. Longenecker, but by all accounts he’s a great player and a nice guy, so maybe I’ll see the bass again someday socially.

So between my conversations with Mr. Brown and Mr. Lauder, the history of the bass is:

circa 1950: Ray finds the bass, with no bridge or strings, in a pawnshop or Mom&Pop music store in NY. He buys it for about 200 bucks (good money then) and takes it to a bass shop in the city, where the guy’s eyes light up, and Ray knows he has something special. Over the years he has it appraised a bunch of times, and he hears English, Italian, Scotch, etc. Then it turns out it’s a match for a bass known to be an Amati in England. The bass becomes reputed to be a circa 1640 Amati.

1959/1960: Ray moves to Toronto. Nervous about having his good bass damaged or destroyed in travel, he begins to trade basses with Murray Lauder when on the road. Eventually he buys another bass, by Silvestre, which he travels with.

1964: the Silvestre takes over as Ray’s main bass. Reasons are mainly that the big one is too big and difficult to play. Also, he thinks this bass sounds better with the new metal strings. In interviews at this time, Ray still refers to the big bass as “my best bass.” Ray moves to LA, to get off the road and become a studio musician. The big bass is more trouble to carry around, and to play, harder to record, and just plain sounds better with gut strings. Ray has decided to use metal. So for these reasons he decides to sell the bass to someone who already loves it, his old friend Murray Lauder.

early 1992: Murray, in semi-retirement, sells the bass to TSO bassist Dave Longenecker.

2002: Ray passes in July. Murray passes in September.

Postscript: The Amati assertion has always been controversial. I’ve talked to at least one guy who says the twin to Ray’s bass in England is now believed to be a Glassel, made in Marknukeurchen (sp?). To me that’s actually great news, there’s much more chance of finding another big Markneu…. bass than another Amati  :) But it doesn’t matter anyway. Mr. Brown always said to pick a bass, close your eyes and listen. If that’s the sound you like, then that’s the bass for you.

Brent


40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #155 on: January 26, 2015, 04:18:52 PM »
@SB - really interesting article. Didn't know some of that. Thx! :Thmbsup:


Quote
Ray knows he has something special. Over the years he has it appraised a bunch of times, and he hears English, Italian, Scotch, etc. Then it turns out it’s a match for a bass known to be an Amati in England. The bass becomes reputed to be a circa 1640 Amati.

Quote
Postscript: The Amati assertion has always been controversial. I’ve talked to at least one guy who says the twin to Ray’s bass in England is now believed to be a Glassel, made in Marknukeurchen

*Mini very rational 40hz rant follows. Please feel free to ignore.*

So typical with orchestral basses.  :-\ The disputes that break out over exactly what a given bass is.  :P

My GF's Mom is a very good violinist who played with several local orchestras. She had (allegedly - although they were both appraised and blessed off as being genuine by some big name string instrument appraisers in New York City) a Ceruti (who was a famous student of Amati) and a Guarneri. They're both fine violins with lovely but very different characters. Not the most beautiful I've ever heard. But they're up there. Especially the Guarneri. However, I've heard some modern instruments I've actually liked better. And those had neither the fancy pedigree - nor the nose-bleed inducing price tags - her two violins had. And let's not even get started on the bows - which are a whole other business and topic for debate!

I guess I just don't get it. Either when it comes to Cremona violins - or '57 Stratocasters for that matter. As long as something sounds good, is responsive, and plays well, I could care less who made it...or when...or where. But that's me. Which is to say I'm a working musician rather than an investor in rarities. Or an instrument collector.

Probably the only thing (besides transportation hassles) that I was actually glad to get away from, when I got away from playing string bass, was the mystique and nonsense surrounding the instrument itself. Sure, better instruments made by better makers (using better materials and construction methods) sounded better than those that were not. But I can't really see or hear anything that justifies some of the reputations or astronomical prices many of these "fine instruments" fetch. I have heard one or two (played by some famous players) that were amazing. But there weren't that many. Certainly not enough of them to create the industry which exists to buy and sell these things.

strad2.jpg

Sad thing is, that same nonsense is coming to the world of electric bass. There's already the 'collectable instrument' feeding frenzy starting to develop around the '60-'62 Fender Jazz and '58-'60 Fender Precision basses along with Gibson Thunderbirds from the early 60s...

I mean what is with these people? These are mass-produced manufactured instruments. In the case of Leo Fender's instruments, they were acknowledged (by Leo himself) to be designed to be as easy and cheap to manufacture as was humanly possible. Even those vintage paint jobs so prized by Fender collectors were the result of his using automotive paints purchased in odd lots from a company that was conveniently located just down the road from the Fender factory. There's a half-joke at Fender that says if house paint was as readily available, and a nickel cheaper a gallon, Leo would have used that instead.

Maybe I'll follow Carol's lead and just switch to cello. ;)

In the case of Ray Brown, I think it wasn't so much the bass itself as it was the bass + Ray Brown. Because the "thing" isn't the instrument (which is just an inert pile of metal, wood, and potential) OR the player (which is heap of DNA, biomass, and spirit) but the combination that really makes whatever magic there is.

keep-smiling-and-carry-on.png

Ok, I'm done! Carry on. ;D
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 02:38:21 PM by 40hz »

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,986
    • View Profile
    • Dales Computer Services
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #156 on: January 26, 2015, 07:50:18 PM »
wow, that's really impressive Carol!

Thanks.

On instruments - modern Chinese string instruments seem to be getting there these days at affordable prices.

I bought a Chinese cello (list price around £1400, ~$2100 US) and as a student instrument it is very impressive. My teacher really likes it and I showed it to another teacher who didn;t know the history or make and she thought it was probably worth about £5000. Like all instruments there are better and worse instruments so you have to be careful.

There is a lot of snobbery about instruments and where they come from - people pay a premium just for a name. There have been Stad violins that have been more or less destroyed and then restored and they still go for silly prices even though they are mostly not Strad (and the bits that are are glued together!).

In blind testing people are often surprised at what they actually like best.

Bows are similar - some shops/dealers have trial schemes and suggest you try a bunch for a while - often it isn't the most expensive bow that sounds best though I have to say bows are a bit of a black art! Just bought a new bow which I am very pleased with but it was a nerve-wracking minefield!!


40Hz - if you can play instruments tuned in 5ths I reckon it takes about an hour to adapt to the new spacing. I have tried various cellos and they are all a bit different in size (even full size varies enormously) but I have tried 3/4 and 7/8 models too. It is surprising how quickly you adapt!

So long as you are not using German bowing on the bass cello bowing is similar but obviously lighter and more responsive than on a bass.

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #157 on: January 26, 2015, 08:21:52 PM »
40Hz - if you can play instruments tuned in 5ths I reckon it takes about an hour to adapt to the new spacing.

Sounds good. Besides, ascending-4ths are just descending-5ths going in the opposite direction on bass. ;D It's not that a big mental stretch to grok or use it. Most guitar players are amazed they can strum a mandolin once you tell them it's tuned like the bottom 4 strings of a guitar except going in the opposite direction. So if you use the bottom 4 strings of a guitar chord in a mirrored pattern, there's your mandolin chords!

Music is so mathematical. Probably why it's one of the few things in the world that makes absolute sense to me. ;D

re: Chinese builds

I agree. It's amazing. Any import I've seen from China that sports somebody else's name (Fender's "Modern Player" series for example) rivals or exceeds its US built counterpart. And for about one third the price. I just recently bought an electric bass made in Indonesia for Fender's Squier subsidiary label. This model is called the Vintage Modified Jaguar Bass Special. (Is somebody in marketing being paid by the word?):

jag.jpgDo we have any musical people on DC?

I wanted a "mainstream sound" sort of instrument, intended for use as a low-risk (i.e. "sacrifice") road bass. Turns out it's astonishingly good. The rave reviews it's gotten are spot on IMO. It's not just an inexpensive bass ($199 USD delivered!) that's "good for its price range." It's actually a rather nice instrument that is more than good enough for professional use either on the stage or in the studio. I like it so much I'm thinking of getting a second one as a backup.

Imagine...two quality instruments for the combined price of approximately five sets of Tomastik-Infeld flatwound strings. The mind boggles! :Thmbsup:
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 08:37:02 PM by 40hz »

Edvard

  • Coding Snacks Author
  • Charter Honorary Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,888
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #158 on: January 26, 2015, 09:18:44 PM »
Speaking of which, have you seen the prices of Tokai and Samick instruments lately?  Some folks got wind of the fact that some big name manufacturers have at some points in time secretly been using those guys to build their "limited-edition" and even some fill-in production runs, so now there's bidding wars on what used to be seen as cheap asian knockoffs.  
So it goes...  :-\

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,070
  • Is your software in my list?
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #159 on: January 26, 2015, 11:13:43 PM »
@SB - really interesting article. Didn't know some of that. Thx! :Thmbsup:


Quote
Ray knows he has something special. Over the years he has it appraised a bunch of times, and he hears English, Italian, Scotch, etc. Then it turns out it’s a match for a bass known to be an Amati in England. The bass becomes reputed to be a circa 1640 Amati.

Quote
Postscript: The Amati assertion has always been controversial. I’ve talked to at least one guy who says the twin to Ray’s bass in England is now believed to be a Glassel, made in Marknukeurchen

*Mini very rational 40hz rant follows. Please feel free to ignore.*

So typical with orchestral basses.  :-\ The disputes that break out over exactly what a given bass is.  :P

My GF's Mom is a very good violinist who played with several local orchestras. She had (allegedly - although they were both appraised and blessed off as being genuine by some big name string instrument appraisers in New York City) a Ceruti (who was a famous student of Amati) and a Guarneri. They're both fine violins with lovely but very different characters. Not the most beautiful I've ever heard. But they're up there. Especially the Guarneri. However, I've heard some modern instruments I've actually liked better. And those had neither the fancy pedigree - nor the nose-bleed inducing price tags - her two violins had. And let's not even get started on the bows - which are a whole other business and arena for debate!

I guess I just don't get it. Either when it comes to Cremona violins - or '57 Stratocasters for that matter. As long as something sounds good, is responsive, and plays well, I could care less who made it or when or where. But that's me. Which is to say I'm a working musician rather than an investor in rarities or an instrument collector.

Probably the only thing (besides transportation hassles) that I was actually glad to get away from, when I got away from playing string bass, was the mystique and nonsense surrounding the instrument itself. Sure, better instruments made by better makers (using better materials and construction methods) sounded better than those that were not. But I can't really see or hear anything that justifies the some of the reputations or astronomical prices many of these "fine instruments" fetch. I have heard one or two (played by some famous players) that were amazing. But there weren't that many. Certainly not enough to create the industry that exists to buy and sell these things.
 (see attachment in previous post)
Sad thing is, that same nonsense is coming to the world of electric bass. There's already the 'collectable instrument' feeding frenzy starting to develop around the '60-'62 Fender Jazz and '58-'60 Fender Precision basses along with Gibson Thunderbirds from the early 60s...

I mean what is with these people? These are mass-manufactured production instruments. In the case of Leo Fender's instruments, they were acknowledged (by Leo himself) to be designed to be as easy and cheap to manufacture as was humanly possible. Even those vintage paint jobs so prized by Fender collectors were the result of his using automotive paints purchased in odd lots from a company that was conveniently located just down the road from the Fender factory. There's a half-joke at Fender that says if house paint was as readily available, and a nickel cheaper a gallon, Leo would have used that instead.

Maybe I'll follow Carol's lead and just switch to cello. ;)

In the case of Ray Brown, I think it wasn't so much the bass itself as it was the bass + Ray Brown. Because the "thing" isn't the instrument (which is just an inert pile of metal, wood, and potential) OR the player (which is heap of DNA, biomass, and spirit) but the combination that really makes whatever magic there is happen.
 (see attachment in previous post)
Ok, I'm done! Carry on. ;D
Good read man!  glad to hear it coming from an experienced bass player, too.  It's so hard for me sometimes to deal with these kinds of music pseudo-science debates!  It's even hard to ignore...once the question is raised, you start to wonder, lol!  Why shouldn't a new bass sound better than an old one?  Because it wasn't hand crafted by the one master that ever lived?  Man, so many of these kinds of conversations with musicians.  I know for sure I've run a couple past you...regarding digital vs analog, recorded vs samples, etc.
And great point...the bass is good because ray brown preferred it.  Not because it's the best...it could be very average!  Like Willie's guitar, Trigger.  He didn't even give that up when the IRS came knocking.

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,986
    • View Profile
    • Dales Computer Services
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #160 on: January 27, 2015, 03:30:31 AM »
Imagine...two quality instruments for the combined price of approximately five sets of Tomastik-Infeld flatwound strings. The mind boggles!

That bass is considerably cheaper than my cello strings :-)

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #161 on: January 27, 2015, 07:51:05 AM »
Imagine...two quality instruments for the combined price of approximately five sets of Tomastik-Infeld flatwound strings. The mind boggles!

That bass is considerably cheaper than my cello strings :-)

Yes. Amazing isn't it?

Same goes for electric bass strings. Most top tier strings run between $22 and $35 for a 4-string set in standard lengths and materials. The Tomastiks I mentioned are one of the rare exceptions (Pyramid and Optima being the other two I know about) that run for around $80 on the street. Mostly because they can. (They are very nice strings. But whether they're worth that ~100% premium is something I'll leave for the individual purchasing a set to say.) However, Tomastik (of Vienna mind you!) has its roots in orchestral strings, so it's to be expected I suppose.

Perhaps the fact that most fretted instrument players change their strings more frequently than once every ten or so years has something to do with those lower prices? ;)

Do quality orchestral strings, like those Pirastro Olivs my GF's mother favored (if memory serves) still command those princely sums? :o
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 08:26:44 AM by 40hz »

Carol Haynes

  • Waffles for England (patent pending)
  • Global Moderator
  • Joined in 2005
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,986
    • View Profile
    • Dales Computer Services
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #162 on: January 27, 2015, 09:00:59 AM »
These are the strings I am using:

http://www.thestring...st-cello-strings-set

It took a lot of experimenting - I have been through 4 sets of strings (not all that sort of price) in just under two years.

One set I got as a free sample (they were priced over £200 but free was far too expensive for them - they stayed on for 2 days and then were gone - not even useful as spares!), one set I got at 30% cost from the manufacturer (the ones I am using - but I have already had to replace the A string because I wore it out).

These are the ones I would like to try ... http://www.thestring...re-cello-strings-set

Also getting through lots of bow rehairs - I play a lot :-)

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #163 on: January 27, 2015, 10:58:24 AM »
Speaking of which, have you seen the prices of Tokai and Samick instruments lately?  Some folks got wind of the fact that some big name manufacturers have at some points in time secretly been using those guys to build their "limited-edition" and even some fill-in production runs, so now there's bidding wars on what used to be seen as cheap asian knockoffs.  
So it goes...  :-\

Same goes for those flashy and sometimes bizarre Tiesco Del Rey guitars from Japan that you saw in pawn shop windows, or off in the dark corners of music stores back in the 60s and 70s. These were mostly bought by well-meaning but clueless parents who wanted to stop their kid's whining about getting an electric guitar - but who couldn't afford a "professional" instrument like a Gibson, Gretsch, or Fender.

Too bad they usually wound up abandoned in attics until they were completely ruined, or just tossed in the dumpster. They were actually pretty decent guitars for the times. And they had their own unique sound. They're fetching good money these days. Some models (i.e. the Spectrum series) in very good "playable" condition sell for up to $5K (and more) on the collector's market.

I mean LOOK at this thing! Especially the headstock and that multi-colored (hence the name 'Spectrum') accordion-style locking multi-slide switch for a pickup selector. It's so ridiculously bad that it's fantastic! What's not to like?

PIC03935.JPGDo we have any musical people on DC?

There's a company called Eastwood that does affordable but rather unusual guitars that are...I dunno...inspired?...by some of these weird old instruments. This is the Ichiban (trans: Number One!) that captures a lot of that old Tiesco "Cal Surf" sound if you've never heard one:



BTW - I don't know if this was the case everywhere, but most of those old school music shops that were around when I was a kid were only a half step up from being pawn shops. The most popular establishment where I lived even had a permanent card game going in the back "rehearsal" room.

Bunch of scruffy looking VW Bugs and beat up cars parked in front, with impoverished looking long-haired young folks in the showroom. And a lot of comings and goings of business-suited older guys who were driving big black sedans in and out of the fenced-in back parking lot - which was under the watchful eyes of this burly guy called "Nick." There was also an extensive accordion section in the center of the showroom....

Feel free to draw what conclusions you will. Definitely a "family" business. ;D

Ah! Those were the days...Not! ;) 8)

« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 02:29:30 PM by 40hz »

Vurbal

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2012
  • **
  • Posts: 635
  • Mostly harmless
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #164 on: January 27, 2015, 03:19:41 PM »
Speaking of which, have you seen the prices of Tokai and Samick instruments lately?  Some folks got wind of the fact that some big name manufacturers have at some points in time secretly been using those guys to build their "limited-edition" and even some fill-in production runs, so now there's bidding wars on what used to be seen as cheap asian knockoffs. 
So it goes...  :-\

My understanding is that the price hike is actually coming almost entirely from Japan. Some time in the last couple decades a major collector's market developed and speculators started buying them as investments. It probably did start with the pre-Fender lawsuit Tokais, which were somewhat collectible already in the US.

If I'm not mistaken, when Tokai began building Fender instruments for the Japanese markets, they dropped their copies altogether. That would likely have driven prices for their pre-Fender instruments through the roof and sent people who couldn't get their hands on one looking for other "classic" Japanese brands.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #165 on: January 28, 2015, 09:43:07 AM »
This video serves two purposes. (1) To show the formidable talent of a very fine bass player by the name of Tal Wilkenfeld; and (2) to show some of the condescending attitude (usually masquerading as faint praise) that women in the music world still face when they elect to play "an unusual instrument for a young lady" rather than just sing, play acoustic guitar, or shake some booty.  :-\



Melanie nailed it when she penned that classic line in the song Brand New Key:  "Some people say, I done all right for a girl"

Here's a better one. As far as bass goes, Tal gets it. She finds the pocket and slots right in to a mostly supporting role - but still with a just the right amount of artistic flair in those places where it fits. That level humility and good taste - in the service of the song - isn't something that can be easily taught if it's not there to begin with. Too bad Jeff Beck sorta ruins it with a somewhat excessive (as is his wont) bit of guitar work. The two ladies definitely put on the better performance in this one.



And it's also nice to see that when the time comes to take the center stage, Tal (with her utterly impeccable technique and tone!) is more than up to the task. Even with a moron (whom she doesn't seem to mind) horning in to do some party tricks... Seriously Jeff? Seriously? Could you just for once get the **** out of the way and let somebody else play something?  That G-G <rest> F#^G thing you're doing - and plucking way too hard* - adds nothing that couldn't just as easily have been handled by the kick drum. In the background.




 8)

------------------------------------------

* Looks like she's playing a Sadowsky bass there Jeff. They're very touch sensitive instruments. You don't need to beat on them to get them to bark or growl...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 08:39:46 AM by 40hz »

tomos

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,328
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #166 on: January 28, 2015, 01:24:00 PM »
^enjoyed those videos.
Interesting for a non-musician music-lover to learn a bit from a musician's perspective.

Even with a moron (whom she doesn't seem to mind) horning in to do some party tricks... Seriously Jeff? Seriously? Could you just for once get the **** out of the way and let somebody else play something?  That G-G <rest> F#^G thing you're doing - and plucking way too hard* - adds nothing that couldn't just as easily have been handled by the kick drum. In the background.

Lol, I couldnt watch after about a minute of that :-/

Tom

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #167 on: January 28, 2015, 01:31:30 PM »
@Tomos - Yeah. He's botching the friggin' beat too... And she seems like such a nice kid. That little happy smile she flashes when she gets that smattering of applause is adorable.

What a dork to be working for. (Nice dye job or wig you got there Jeff! Even kids in the third world, who never saw so much as a TV set, would take one look and say: "Look Mommy! Man wearing rug! Rug!") >:D

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of Jeff Beck. :P

(BTW: He's playing G-G <beat> F^G - not F#. My bad. :-[ )

« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 08:25:37 PM by 40hz »

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,070
  • Is your software in my list?
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #168 on: January 29, 2015, 04:59:00 PM »
@Tomos - Yeah. He's botching the friggin' beat too... And she seems like such a nice kid. That little happy smile she flashes when she gets that smattering of applause is adorable.

What a dork to be working for. (Nice dye job or wig you got there Jeff! Even kids in the third world, who never saw so much as a TV set, would take one look and say: "Look Mommy! Man wearing rug! Rug!") >:D

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of Jeff Beck. :P

(BTW: He's playing G-G <beat> F^G - not F#. My bad. :-[ )
I am really enjoying your animosity towards Jeff Beck, 40.
I didn't know about this Wilkenfeld lady.  Let me just say this personally...she is soooooo attractive.  holy cow.  The first girl i fell in love with as an adult had hair like that.

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #169 on: January 29, 2015, 05:42:35 PM »
^ She is a pretty sweet person to say nothing of being rather nice to look at too. Her CV is extremely impressive. So much so I make it a point not to say "young" or "female" in the same sentence with her name and the term "bass player." She not a fine <fill in the blank> bass player. She is a superb bass player. Period.

And at the ripe old age of 28, she has a long career ahead of her. :Thmbsup:

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,070
  • Is your software in my list?
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #170 on: January 29, 2015, 06:10:18 PM »
^ She is a pretty sweet person to say nothing of being rather nice to look at too. Her CV is extremely impressive. So much so I make it a point not to say "young" or "female" in the same sentence with her name and the term "bass player." She not a fine <fill in the blank> bass player. She is a superb bass player. Period.

And at the ripe old age of 28, she has a long career ahead of her. :Thmbsup:
It's funny you mention that, because I actually had to go back and edit the phrase "Wilkenfeld chick lady" for the same reason.  Yea, no question...she's the real deal.  I'd very much like to hear this thing she's done with Jackson Browne.

Vurbal

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2012
  • **
  • Posts: 635
  • Mostly harmless
    • View Profile
    • Read more about this member.
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #171 on: January 30, 2015, 07:57:15 AM »
I'm always looking for female musicians because I think it's good for my daughters who play bass. Tal Wilkenfeld is definitely one of the best. I'm also a big fan of the Haim sisters, particularly Este Haim. It's not just because she's a bassist either. Anybody who can make Mustang Sally sound fresh and interesting is a top notch player in my book. Their parents are no slouches either.



She also has the best bass face in the business.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #172 on: January 30, 2015, 08:36:09 AM »
She also has the best bass face in the business.

LOL! Is that what they call that grimace so many bass players do? ;D ;D ;D

Learn something new every day! :Thmbsup:

For the record: I'm more the Joe-Gore-vacant-deadpan type myself. Or at least when I'm not glaring at a fellow band member who is screwing up the beat - or is doing the: "Wow! I'm really blowing everybody away with THIS extended solo!!!..." thing. You can almost see the thought balloon go up when they decide to pull that nonsense. And just before they start, they invariably look over at their bass player with 'that look' that screams - "Gimmee a lot of BASS!!!"

Nice to know we bassists are considered 'just the thing' when it comes time to cover up a guitarist's sins. ;)

And people wonder why I'm so clumsy on a crowded stage that I accidentally bop bandmates on the side of their skulls (with the head of my bass - oops!) as often as I do?

Yeah...I definitely need to be more careful.  :-\


----------------------------------
@V - re: the Haim ladies. Agree 100%. Anything done in an attempt to improve Mustang Sally can hardly be a bad thing in my book. I personally can't stand that song. (Same thing goes for Sweet Jane.)  I swear next time I get asked to play either of those two I'm gonna plug into a looper and record about a minute's worth, hit repeat, and then go get a fresh draft over at the bar... Cheers guys! Carry on.  :Thmbsup: :P
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 09:18:54 AM by 40hz »

40hz

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 11,768
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #173 on: January 30, 2015, 10:47:51 AM »
I am really enjoying your animosity towards Jeff Beck, 40.

It's not so much that. (Ok...maybe it is.) But I mean look... she's a superb bassist...her credentials are impeccable, so there's no need to do the débutante thing for her when she's on stage. The lady sounds and looks the part - and she has one of those really cute girl-stomp things going (more on that later) when this ageing ninny moves in, screws the beat, plus adds some bad sound to something that didn't need anything else - and would have been far better (and I'm guessing got the woman a great deal more applause) if he just allowed things to run on their own merits.

Jeff doesn't need anything to bolster his (somewhat unjustified IMO) fame or place in the history books of rock & roll. So it's not like he needs to rub himself on her for good luck like Sheryl Crow's husband (a big producer) did for his comely Sheryl when he got her paired up on stage and TV with everybody who was anybody when she decided to make a go of it. Ms. Wilkenfeld has a friggen' 'rep' for heaven's sake. She had established "studio cred" by the bloody age of 20!

So maybe Tal is Jeff's good luck talisman these days? Her now famous 2007 performance with an uncharacteristically considerate Jeff Beck at the Crossroads Festival did more for Jeff's career (most people were already fairly tired of him) than it did hers. Or so I think. But I could well be wrong about all this. My long standing dislike of all things 'Jeff Beck' (the 'whys' of which are not worth going into) sometimes tends to cloud my normally more rational thought processes.

Re: the girl-stomp thing:

Musicianship is performance art as well as a musical ability.

A good performer invites the audience into their world to let them see a bit of what they're experiencing. It builds audience engagement. And it's the courteous thing to do since many people (who are not musicians) are extremely interested in that thing we do. So by letting the audience in, you educate (and in the best possible situations) provide an impetus for them to someday become musicians themselves.

Because the truth of the matter is (as musicians) we're still pretty much a guild - complete with it's traditions, and 'secret' lore, and rituals and regalia...a pecking order...and all that other nonsense. So "opening up the kimono" is something most audience members appreciate.

If you check out some of her other performances, you'll generally see her do a little dance or bop to give the audience and idea of where she's coming from beat-wise. Or she'll play something very fine, then the look up at the audience and shoot a quick smile that seems to say (in a non-condescending manner) "Did you catch that? Do you see what I'm trying to say with this song?"

That's pure performance. And simple courtesy to your listeners.

Add that to demonstrable musical talent and sophistication, a shy little smile that'd melt the Grinch, and the sort of looks and mannerisms that hits the average libido with all the gentleness of a baseball bat, and you have a complete performance package. There aren't too many performing musicians who can (or can be bothered) to put it all together like that.

Screenshot from 2015-01-30 11:46:58.png

If I sound impressed, it's because I am.  ;) ;D

« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 11:35:04 AM by 40hz »

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,070
  • Is your software in my list?
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: Do we have any musical people on DC?
« Reply #174 on: January 30, 2015, 12:35:25 PM »
So maybe Tal is Jeff's good luck talisman these days? Her now famous 2007 performance with an uncharacteristically considerate Jeff Beck at the Crossroads Festival did more for Jeff's career (most people were already fairly tired of him) than it did hers. Or so I think. But I could well be wrong about all this. My long standing dislike of all things 'Jeff Beck' (the 'whys' of which are not worth going into) sometimes tends to cloud my normally more rational thought processes.
I remember this!  And i think you are exactly right!  That crossroads performance had me thinking about jeff beck more so than anything else i can think of.  I have to go back and watch it.

I know "underrated" can be used to describe any instrument in a band, but a great bassist does typically tend to be underrated.  I've probably learned more from bass players than any other instrument.  They tend to explain things better.
It's interesting that as pop music continues to evolve, it's the bass that is getting louder and louder, while everything else is fading away, along with  melodies, songs with more than two chords or measures (lol).