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Last post Author Topic: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.  (Read 17007 times)

wraith808

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2014, 02:45:41 PM »
Quote
You don't get notifications when the device is asleep (or sometimes ever, in the case of IMs). The email app expects to have a live connection to the server and cannot reflect actions like flagging or deleting email in a responsive fashion. Your phone makes a note to delete the email when you're in cell range and hides the message immediately. The Metro app just acts like it has ignored your attempt to delete a message while it frantically tries to connect to the server.

This is what I was talking about with the connectivity.

superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2014, 03:17:03 PM »
Quote
You don't get notifications when the device is asleep (or sometimes ever, in the case of IMs). The email app expects to have a live connection to the server and cannot reflect actions like flagging or deleting email in a responsive fashion. Your phone makes a note to delete the email when you're in cell range and hides the message immediately. The Metro app just acts like it has ignored your attempt to delete a message while it frantically tries to connect to the server.

This is what I was talking about with the connectivity.
I see, yes that's annoying.  For me, I don't think it will be very important.  I think i'll just be using it as a portable desktop rather than some kind of mobile device.  I'm guessing i'm not going to be using the metro apps much.  I've always been a third party guy anyway.  I rarely use any stock windows programs other than Office.  i'll go third party just for the principle of it, lol.

wraith808

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2014, 03:49:01 PM »
Quote
You don't get notifications when the device is asleep (or sometimes ever, in the case of IMs). The email app expects to have a live connection to the server and cannot reflect actions like flagging or deleting email in a responsive fashion. Your phone makes a note to delete the email when you're in cell range and hides the message immediately. The Metro app just acts like it has ignored your attempt to delete a message while it frantically tries to connect to the server.

This is what I was talking about with the connectivity.
I see, yes that's annoying.  For me, I don't think it will be very important.  I think i'll just be using it as a portable desktop rather than some kind of mobile device.  I'm guessing i'm not going to be using the metro apps much.  I've always been a third party guy anyway.  I rarely use any stock windows programs other than Office.  i'll go third party just for the principle of it, lol.

Are you going to be using it as a tablet?  I foresee much pain.  Which will lead to Anger.  Which will lead to Hate.  Which will lead to suffering.  Which will lead to the Dark Side.

... after all, Yoda said so.

Vurbal

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2014, 04:08:43 PM »
Quote
You don't get notifications when the device is asleep (or sometimes ever, in the case of IMs). The email app expects to have a live connection to the server and cannot reflect actions like flagging or deleting email in a responsive fashion. Your phone makes a note to delete the email when you're in cell range and hides the message immediately. The Metro app just acts like it has ignored your attempt to delete a message while it frantically tries to connect to the server.

This is what I was talking about with the connectivity.
I see, yes that's annoying.  For me, I don't think it will be very important.  I think i'll just be using it as a portable desktop rather than some kind of mobile device.  I'm guessing i'm not going to be using the metro apps much.  I've always been a third party guy anyway.  I rarely use any stock windows programs other than Office.  i'll go third party just for the principle of it, lol.

Are you going to be using it as a tablet?  I foresee much pain.  Which will lead to Anger.  Which will lead to Hate.  Which will lead to suffering.  Which will lead to the Dark Side.

... after all, Yoda said so.

I have to agree with this. I do use mine for reading technical PDFs, but it's primarily a laptop and I never had any doubt that would be its primary purpose. The touchscreen adds a lot in desktop mode but for actual desktop programs - the kind that call for lots of mouse and keyboard interaction - it's honestly a piece of crap. For occasionally using as a tablet - even for desktop programs - it's brilliant. As a dedicated tablet I'd rate it as the worst one I've ever used, not counting the couple of off brand, garbage hardware Android models I've briefly had my hands on.
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xtabber

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2014, 04:24:48 PM »
Hmm, yes, this seems to be the case for me.  I want a larger screen for reading, like paper size.  I was testing some pdf's on a surface this weekend...I don't know about you, but i liked it a lot better than android.  It's just so fast and snappy.  I also like the fact that i can use my software like pdf xchange etc, which i prefer over my android reader (ezpdf).  we'll see, i think i'll like it a lot barring any hardware bugs.  of course, that's what i said about the windows phone 8, and it sucked.
I tried ezpdf on one of my Android tablets and quickly removed it because it was slow and choppy.

What I use most often for pdf on Android these days is Mantano Reader Premium, which is primarily an ePub reader, but also an excellent pdf reader, much faster and smoother at rendering than even Adobe Reader for Android.  Mantano excels in both document and library navigation.  I also use Moon+ Reader Pro (also primarily an ePub reader that supports pdf), and Repligo, a full featured reader that many prefer to ezpdf but that seems to have been mysteriously discontinued last month.

While I do use PDFXchange on Windows, I can't imagine using it on a tablet because the menu and toolbar interface would be a nightmare on a touchscreen, even with a stylus.

I use two different Android tablets for reading, depending on the document.  For ePub books, which can reflow and resize text, I mostly use a Nexus 7 (2013), which has 1920x1080 resolution and is very light and feels like a light paperback when held in the hand. For larger documents, like 8.5x11 pdf papers, as well as heavily illustrated books, I use a Nexus 10, which has a 2560x1600 screen resolution. Both of these tablets have magnetic covers that turn the display off when you close them, making the reading experience feel even more like a book.  Also, both the Kindle and Nook for Android apps have now improved to the point where they provide a much superior reading experience than the Windows versions, when you are reading books purchased from those sources.

I have tried using the Android tablets for serious work with a keyboard and mouse and, while it can be done in a pinch, it doesn't compare to a Windows notebook.  I've looked at the Surface Pro and it is a really nice Windows notebook, but seriously limited and overpriced for what it is.  If money were no object, I'd buy one just for the fun of it, but I can't see it ever being either my primary working notebook computer or my primary reading device.

superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2014, 09:02:26 AM »
I use two different Android tablets for reading, depending on the document.  For ePub books, which can reflow and resize text, I mostly use a Nexus 7 (2013), which has 1920x1080 resolution and is very light and feels like a light paperback when held in the hand. For larger documents, like 8.5x11 pdf papers, as well as heavily illustrated books, I use a Nexus 10, which has a 2560x1600 screen resolution. Both of these tablets have magnetic covers that turn the display off when you close them, making the reading experience feel even more like a book.  Also, both the Kindle and Nook for Android apps have now improved to the point where they provide a much superior reading experience than the Windows versions, when you are reading books purchased from those sources.
This makes a lot of sense, I would probably end up doing this as well.  The only reason why I'm not going after the nexus devices is because i'm expecting the new ones to come out soon.

Vurbal

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2014, 05:13:11 PM »
This probably isn't really what superboyac is looking for, but for an extremely reasonable price on a used 10.1 inch Android tablet, I highly recommend Digicircle. They only give you a 30 day warranty - a no DOA guarantee basically - and you have to pay attention since they also sell as-is units, but I've bought quite a few items from them and never had a complaint. In fact I just recently bought my daughter a low end Westinghouse 32 inch TV for $130 for a graduation present and a 10.1 inch Asus Android tablet (for $120 IIRC) for her birthday.

The tablet was specifically for use with ebooks in college. I didn't buy an ebook reader app for her, but I have to second the suggestions for Montano and Moon+. Both have outstanding interfaces and are well worth the minimal cost. If we're talking just ePub format books, even the free (open source) reader available from numerous devs is still better than anything you'll find for Windows, regardless of which interface you're talking about.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
Before they beat me bloody down at the station
They haven't got a word out of me since
I got a billion years probation
- The MC5

Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
- Thomas J. Watson, Sr

It's not rocket surgery.
- Me


I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2014, 06:20:16 PM »
This probably isn't really what superboyac is looking for, but for an extremely reasonable price on a used 10.1 inch Android tablet, I highly recommend Digicircle. They only give you a 30 day warranty - a no DOA guarantee basically - and you have to pay attention since they also sell as-is units, but I've bought quite a few items from them and never had a complaint. In fact I just recently bought my daughter a low end Westinghouse 32 inch TV for $130 for a graduation present and a 10.1 inch Asus Android tablet (for $120 IIRC) for her birthday.

The tablet was specifically for use with ebooks in college. I didn't buy an ebook reader app for her, but I have to second the suggestions for Montano and Moon+. Both have outstanding interfaces and are well worth the minimal cost. If we're talking just ePub format books, even the free (open source) reader available from numerous devs is still better than anything you'll find for Windows, regardless of which interface you're talking about.
Nice!  I've bookmarked it since they have good deals, thanks.

I like Moon+ also, it's my preferred reader on Android.  I still use ezpdf because it was the only one that could do seamless vertical scrolling, I did try Montano also.  But it's been 3-4 years by now,maybe Montano's features have increased, will give it a shot.

superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2014, 10:35:39 AM »
So I wanted to go get the tablet this weekend.  I went to the mall, where the microsoft store is supposedly.  Here's my experience, and why microsoft basically annoyed me:
--There's not store, just a booth in the middle of the mall.  I kind of already knew this.
--I walked up to play with the tablet.  I was intentionally avoiding eye contact with the rep there, who is like breathing down my neck.  Can you stand at least 3 feet away?
--After playing with it for about 5 awkward minutes, I finally tell the guy I'm ready to buy this one.
--So he asks which model do i want?  I chose one of the i7 models.
--he says that's not available.  ok...this whole trip is now a waste of time.  it will be available 8/1.  Maybe I should have known this, but I don't understand what Microsoft's strategy here is.  Probably something to do with their inventory issues and this non-store situation.
--Says do I want to preorder?  I'm like ok.
--Then he tries to convince me to get the i5 machines, saying there isn't any reason to get i7 other than autocad or something.  He was just trying to sell the i5 because it was in stock.
--Then I ask, do I have to pick it up at this place?  He says yes.  I say, what's the point of preordering then?  I can order online and get it shipped or picked up wherever I want. 

Such a weird, unsatisfying experience.  I got a hot dog on a stick and left.

wraith808

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2014, 02:57:50 PM »
I got a hot dog on a stick and left.

I still say you got the better value for what you're looking for.  :P

40hz

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2014, 05:36:32 PM »
I got a hot dog on a stick and left.

I still say you got the better value for what you're looking for.  :P

This.


superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2014, 05:49:41 PM »
My dilemma is that it's still the only tablet with a nice large screen and good pen input.

I also just tried out my friend's sub-$200 lenovo tablet, it was small, maybe like 7".  It was running full Windows 7.  It was nice!  Too small for what I want though, it's like a large cell phone.

The other options:
--Other brand windows 8 tablets from lenovo and dell, primarily.  Asus/acer have some.  They are somewhat cheaper, but they don't have the power of the surface, nor the pen input.  The lenovo and dell are convertibles and they are heavy like laptops.
--The Android tablets.  I would have gotten the nexus 7, which I do like a lot.  But android will have new tablets coming out soon, so I'm waiting on that.  But really, it's not windows, and that's kind of what i want to try.  I'll still get these tablets regardless when they come out anyway, they'll be pretty cheap.  There's a 10.1 nexus out now, but it's considered "old" and again, a new one is right around the corner.

I really don't have a problem with the tablet or the price of the surface pro.  I do have a problem with this half-assed microsoft rollout of it, but isn't this to be expected now from everyone?  MS, google, comcast...aren't they all just getting us used to being treated like inferiors anyway?

Who is working on a linux tablet currently?

superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2014, 06:02:07 PM »
Any you guys seen this thing, the Dukepad?  $370 worth of DIY components to make a raspberry pi 10" tablet.

Quote
The DukePad is not a product, it is an open source, freely available set of plans and software for assembling your own tablet using off the shelf components. As such, the quality of the DukePad software environment is demo-quality (although we did strive to write as much real functionality as we could, the realities of demo presentations requires sacrificing time on parts of the applications that are not going to be shown, in favor of smoothing out those parts that will be shown). The code is hosted in the OpenJFX repositories under apps/experiments/DukePad. We hope to see forks of this code (GitHub, BitBucket, whatever you like best) and lots of experimentation and improvement that can be shared.

Vurbal

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2014, 06:14:57 PM »
If you're considering other Windows tablets, don't leave HP business offerings off the table. HP/Compaq's consumer PCs are, and have always been, of inconsistent quality. Some will be nearly identical to a business computer counterpart, and therefore almost universally rock solid and reliable. Others are, well, purely consumer offerings with the potential problems in their bells and whistles you would expect.

Had I been willing to spend $100 more than I did for my Asus, I almost certainly would have gone with a technically similar, but almost certainly higher quality, HP alternative. I'll have to look up the name again.

Keep in mind, the model I was looking at was (IIRC) quad core Atom powered like the Asus I ended up with. It also didn't have the external hard drive in the keyboard dock like the Asus, but did have twice as much RAM (4GB) and certainly a higher quality keyboard and docking mechanism. You seem to have your mind set on a desktop processor, but I can't advise strongly enough that you at least try to identify and try out the newer Atom powered units before dismissing them. They make the mobile and portable experience so much nicer, but only so long as you don't really need more pure computing speed.

Also, I believe HP has at least 2 Win8 tablets with larger displays and desktop processors, but I looked at an awful lot off tablets and did end up with specs for more tablets than my twisted little brain could reliably handle without a cheat sheet.
I learned to say the pledge of allegiance
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Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of ''crackpot'' than the stigma of conformity.
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I recommend reading through my Bio before responding to any of my posts. It could save both of us a lot of time and frustration.

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2014, 11:50:02 PM »
There's a 10.1 nexus out now, but it's considered "old" and again, a new one is right around the corner.

The Nexus 10 came out in 2012 and never got a hardware update in 2013 like the Nexus 7 did. I've been itching to buy one for about a year, but thought surely there was a new one "right around the corner" since the Nexus 7 was updated last year. AFAIK, any news of a Nexus 10 hardware update has proven to be just a rumor. :'(


superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2014, 09:42:22 AM »
There's a 10.1 nexus out now, but it's considered "old" and again, a new one is right around the corner.

The Nexus 10 came out in 2012 and never got a hardware update in 2013 like the Nexus 7 did. I've been itching to buy one for about a year, but thought surely there was a new one "right around the corner" since the Nexus 7 was updated last year. AFAIK, any news of a Nexus 10 hardware update has proven to be just a rumor. :'(
Yea, I think you're right.  I've heard about a NExus 6 and 8 coming out, with sizes that reflect the number.  The Nexus 7 has been a huge hit, it is very nice.  I'm guessing the 8 will be pretty nice also, especially if it's built by HTC.
The Nexus 10 is nice, it's just a little slower than people prefer I guess.  I don't remember who said it here, but to my eyes, an 8.5x11 sized tablet (the actual display) would be ideal.  That would be a 14" monitor display, which i guess sounds large.  But it's not!  If we are willing to carry 7" in our pockets  :P, then we should be fine using a 14" tablet.


superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2014, 11:02:09 PM »
So I have a Surface pro now.  I will post my thoughts here as I go along, feel free to ask me questions.

So far...
It is EXACTLY what i expected.  That's not good or bad.  I am obviously very familiar with Windows, and this experience is exactly what I felt windows on a tablet would be.  I don't care for metro apps, I'm really interested in the desktop side of things.  So I have it set up where it goes right into desktop and I don't really ever do anything metro so far.

The touch experience is fine.  Very fast and responsive.  using desktop software with your finger is perfectly fine, I don't know what the big deal is.  The precision is off sometimes, and you still have to double-tap for the normal double-click (although i think that can be changed), but I expect that.  It's not just tap and swipe like smartphone apps.  but the programs you're using are also feature packed, you really can't expect anything else.  Apps have like 2-3 things to do on any given screen.  Desktop programs have dozens to thousands of things to do on a screen.  The input will be more complicated.

Anyway, those are my thoughts so far.  I love the form factor, it sits great on my lap with that kickstand.  i think my online reading experience is going to be vastly improved.

Dormouse

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2014, 03:49:04 AM »
So I have a Surface pro now.

You never did need help to decide. You just wanted someone to say it was sensible  :)

superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2014, 05:35:13 PM »
So I have a Surface pro now.

You never did need help to decide. You just wanted someone to say it was sensible  :)
pretty much.  8)
it's NOT sensible.

superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2014, 10:14:55 PM »
I've been playing a lot with it today.  So far, I'm test out the reading capabilities.

Things I'm picky about:
--vertical touch scrollinig.  For touch devices, I like to have the documents scroll vertically (seamless, no page jumps) while I flick with my finger.  This is a pretty uncommon feature, unfortunately.
--Adjust text size on the fly.  Most can do this.  of course, with pdf's it doesn't always work well because of wrapping issues.

For epubs:
The reader I am settling on is microsoft word.  Just works the best so far.  This means I need to convert epubs to rtf using calibre.  All possible with the device itself (benefit of running full windows).

for pdfs:
I've sort of settled on pdf-xchange.  No special reason other than i already had it.  I would have preferred bluebeam, but i only have one license and i already use it.  This pdf setup is great for reading and marking up freely.

fredemeister

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2014, 02:22:45 PM »
Here's something to consider for the future ...

https://gigaom.com/2...lace-the-smartphone/

http://www.howtogeek...are-killing-tablets/

Can see the logic if phones get bigger - 6.5" screen almost the same as a 7" tablet.

superboyac

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2014, 08:13:31 PM »
Here's something to consider for the future ...

https://gigaom.com/2...lace-the-smartphone/

http://www.howtogeek...are-killing-tablets/

Can see the logic if phones get bigger - 6.5" screen almost the same as a 7" tablet.
We'll see.  Tablets, phones, phablets....most of these words are only defining the sizes of the computing devices, and the articles and the way most people discuss these things are not terribly productive.

The Windows tablets stand alone in terms of raw power/productivity.  There is nothing else right now that is that small with the kind of power that it offers.  Android and iOS, regardless of the size of the screen, can't really do much beyond media consumption (gross exaggeration, but valid when compared to a Windows PC).

To me, all these devices are insignificant at this point.  The way people are using phones and tablets, none of these developments are a big deal (other than the Surface Pro offerings, which most people don't care about currently).  Bigger screens, faster cpu's, more memory...none of this matters to me as far as earth shattering improvements.

When Mac OSX becomes available on a touch device, now that will be big news.  When Linux goes on touch devices, that will be big news.  Windows is already on touch devices, but nobody cares mainly due to price and perhaps some ridiculously ignorant reasons otherwise.

I don't know what is holding back the full OS powered touch devices, even MS has been very cautious with rolling it out.  I personally think full OS powered tablets are a significant threat to way most businesses work, especially large ones with folks sitting at desktop computers or laptops.  What happens when a loaded Windows tablet is the same price as a desktop+monitor?  Why will people need to be in a building, or cubicle?  I mean, this has been coming for a while because of the internet.  But with the desktop computer, you are still tethered to a cubicle, with the only reason for not being at another location being "secuirty".  But with the tablets, sheesh, that will be a more difficult argument.  Make calls on your phone, do your work on your tablet...don't need buildings or any location specific needs.

Let's root for the tablet.  The politics of this will be very messy.

I can already tell that as connected as I am, this surface pro tablet has really made an impact on me, this is the future.  Once Android and Apple start running out of unimportant ideas like smartwatches and tablets/phones of varying sizes, they'll be forced to implement these more powerful ideas.  They're just sitting on it right now.

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2014, 05:10:57 AM »
Here's something to consider for the future ...

http://www.howtogeek...are-killing-tablets/

Can see the logic if phones get bigger - 6.5" screen almost the same as a 7" tablet.

Misuses statistics - says tablets still growing, PCs may have stopped falling - but tries to give the impression that tablets are flagging (iPads certainly are) and being caught by PCs in the growth stakes. May happen, but it hasn't already happened.

Says tablets can't do multiple windows. Samsung Note can. & the pen can be used similarly to a mouse. Or can just use a mouse.

There's a lot more water to float under these bridges. Usage will continue to change fast and development of devices and ODs continues apace.

Dormouse

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2014, 05:27:58 AM »
Android and iOS, regardless of the size of the screen, can't really do much beyond media consumption (gross exaggeration, but valid when compared to a Windows PC).

To say 'gross exaggeration' is putting it mildly. I do little media consumption (and never looked for music videos  ;D ). There are heavyweight programs on PCs that don't really have an equivalent on Android or iOS. But I find that I don't use those programs for the vast majority of my 'productivity' time. And when I do, I actually want to be at my desk using my big monitors. The use of digitizer pen technology has transformed my ability to use tablets and phones for productivity (and led me to move to the Samsung Note series in both cases - Surface Pro is only a tablet and massively expensive in comparison).

But with the desktop computer, you are still tethered to a cubicle, with the only reason for not being at another location being "secuirty".  But with the tablets, sheesh, that will be a more difficult argument.  Make calls on your phone, do your work on your tablet...don't need buildings or any location specific needs.

I can already tell that as connected as I am, this surface pro tablet has really made an impact on me, this is the future. 

Pretty much agree with all this.

I suspect MS would have more traction in this space if
a) it hadn't already lost the consumer end of the market
b) it was cheaper
c) W8 were less horrible
d) the phones/tablets formed a coherent whole system
e) it were easier to see that Windows was going in a desired direction

Lets all clap for Ballmer :greenclp:

dr_andus

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Re: I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2014, 06:12:51 AM »
I don't know what is holding back the full OS powered touch devices, even MS has been very cautious with rolling it out.  I personally think full OS powered tablets are a significant threat to way most businesses work, especially large ones with folks sitting at desktop computers or laptops.  What happens when a loaded Windows tablet is the same price as a desktop+monitor?  Why will people need to be in a building, or cubicle?  I mean, this has been coming for a while because of the internet.  But with the desktop computer, you are still tethered to a cubicle, with the only reason for not being at another location being "secuirty".  But with the tablets, sheesh, that will be a more difficult argument.  Make calls on your phone, do your work on your tablet...don't need buildings or any location specific needs.

Let's root for the tablet.  The politics of this will be very messy.

If we're talking about serious work and serious productivity, aren't laptops fulfilling this purpose? The only advantage of tablets over laptops seems to be the weight. Even Chromebooks can give you a 14in screen and a full-sized keyboard (and they are a lot lighter than Win laptops), and you can use Chrome Remote Desktop to connect to your main machine and have access to your full suite of Win programs and multi-monitor setup.

Tablets are nice for lounging on the sofa, but for real work the laptop format is hard to beat (whether sitting at the table or balancing it on your lap).