A real debate over Mir? This is gonna be good if it ever happens!

[40hz]

From the folks over at Phoronix:

Shuttleworth Challenged Over Mir Comments
Posted by Michael Larabel on October 19, 2013

On Friday when announcing the Ubuntu 14.04 LTS codename, Mark Shuttleworth ruffled some feathers by making some critical comments about the Linux users in opposition to Canonical's Mir Display Server. KDE's Aaron Siego has now challenged Mark to a public and live debate over Mir vs. Wayland.

The comments by Mark that were covered in the earlier Phoronix article claim that attacks against Mir are only on political grounds, calls them as the "Open Source Tea Party", say they suffer from the "Not Invented Here" syndrome, and sharply criticizes systemd.

Aaron Siego of KDE, who is in support of Wayland, calls out Mark on his critical comments. Aaron has challenged Mark to a public, live, Internet debate to discuss these topics. The challenge was made via Aaron's Google+ page. There's plenty of comments on the page, including from Jono Bacon, Martin Gräßlin, and other open-source developers.

There's no word yet whether Mark will accept the debate.

[mahesh2k]

KDE is anti ubuntu and anti canonical. The KDE users are attacking ubuntu and gnome for quite some time now. I don't like the way KDE and community members are calling out these days to the ubuntu. I mean if you don't like ubuntu then don't use it, why cause mess by entering into their community, forums and trying to stir away the users calling canonical out. The way KDE members attacking gnome and ubuntu on sites like omgubuntu.co.uk is a shame.

[40hz]

@Mahesh2k - FWIW, the proposed discussion has little to do with KDE/Gnome/Canonical and everything to do with Mir and Mark Shuttleworth. If you haven't followed the debate and controversy surrounding Mir vs Wayland, Aaron Siego's calling Shuttleworth out at this juncture probably won't make much sense to you.
 

Aaron's invitation to Mark

Aaron Seigo
Shared publicly  -  Oct 18, 2013
 
+Mark Shuttleworth, You write in the blog linked below:

"Mir is really important work. When lots of competitors attack a project on purely political grounds, you have to wonder what THEIR agenda is. At least we know now who belongs to the Open Source Tea Party "

As one of the people who has disagreed with the necessity of, the value proposition of as well as the practice of spreading lies in defense of Mir, I resent being equated with a political movement that bears no resemblance to the issues surrounding Mir. I am particularly offended by the implication that the only retort to Mir has been politically motivated.

It amounts to libel at worst, and name calling at best. You would not accept that done to you, yet you do it to others. Shame on you, Mark, shame.

You feel that defending Mir with such tactics is important enough to plug that into an otherwise unrelated blog entry that opens with "I would like to say a few thank-you’s".

My response to that is simple, Mark: let's do this like adults.

If you wish to discuss Mir and cast aspersions on those who disagree in the process, well then by all means let's discuss Mir, Mark.

Let's do so live and online. Let's appear on one of the outstanding Free software video casts such as the Linux Action Show with +Chris Fisher and +Matt Hartley (assuming they will have us) and discuss the merits of Mir,  Wayland and their implications vis-à-vis Free software .

Yes, I am challenging you to a public debate on the matter. Seems appropriate as you seem to feel this is a political matter.

Are you in?

[mahesh2k]

I did followed this whole debacle. The KDE userbase is attacking canonical, gnome and ubuntu for quite some time. The KDE userbase is the one who is taking this discussion into form of debate. It is not even a debate, it is basically attack of "freedom of choice". Canonical wants to use mir, and rest of the community is against it. Funny how "freedom of choice" works for the so-called liberal linux folks. The way aaron is posting replies on Google plus for this debate, shows his less professional side. I have followed the weyland, mir and xmir discussion already. There is one youtube video where the X developer is giving his genuine thoughts on mir, yet the community is making up their own stories and attacking ubuntu and canonical. I failed to understand one point that if the ubuntu wants to use mir for their own closed community, why they can't use it? Redhat uses plenty of cloud components which are closed and not given to the public unless they are customers, atleast canonical is not doing something like that.

At one point, linux community talks about choice and then when some organization makes use of open source for their own purpose (in turn their choice). Linux community attacks them for that?

[Edvard]

Mr. Shuttleworth "shows his less professional side" in making ad hominem statements against those who dislike Mir.  I couldn't care less, plain ol' Xorg works just grand so far, and hopefully the superior technology wins in the end rather than egos and politics (yeah, right).  I have less than high hopes about it with bad form being shown on both sides.

40Hz, could you pass the popcorn?

[mahesh2k]

Mr. Shuttleworth "shows his less professional side" in making ad hominem statements against those who dislike Mir.

I find this funny. The whole linux community attacked that guy from the start no matter what decision he took. And then when he refuted back, it is ad hominem and libel stuff? lol. So we are supposed to attack any person with such low tone and when that person refutes back then he's unprofessional and we are not? Whoa, what a world we live in.

[Edvard]

No, my point was that such behavior was unbecoming of folks on BOTH sides, and said nothing about libel.  Mark could have taken the high road and either ignored the attacks altogether or come up with some coherent reasons as to why Mir is technically superior.  But he didn't.  He didn't even "refute back" anything.  Instead, he engaged in the same name-calling his detractors are guilty of.  Personally, I would welcome some well-reasoned arguments in a fairly-moderated point-for-point technical debate, rather than an over-the-internet mud-slinging match.

[mahesh2k]

He has no obligations to defend why he is using Mir. He and his community has all the rights in the world, to decide what is good for the ubuntu. I think debate is pointless. I mean anyone can use their own display server of choice, why defend Weyland and why trash any new display server is beyond me. It's matter of choice. The stunt from KDE people is because they fear adoption of weyland will lack in numbers if the ubuntu and other child distros adopt xmir. There has to be some sort of fear that makes them attack mir and shuttleworth. I don't see a valid argument from non contributing member calling out mir, canonical and ubuntu on fair ground for the choice of using mir. They made their choice of not using ubuntu, weyland and any other stuff, so why chase and attack ubuntu community for their actions?

[40hz]

Apparently we have a serious Ubuntu/Mir admirer among us.

Does anyone else care to comment?

[mahesh2k]

LOL No.

I just find the whole, "Lets attack on ubuntu for whatever they do" stuff worth commenting. Note: I have made negative comments on ubuntu in the past in this forum. But I never made personal comment against anyone like mark or the other community members. KDE community making such comments by taking shelter of rest of the linux community rained on my nerves. So thought about posting that. 

[40hz]

rained on my nerves. So thought about posting that.

-mahesh2k (October 21, 2013, 05:21 AM)

Fair enough.

But you might want to notice that Mark Shuttleworth (who has never been one to mince words) has become increasingly combative in public since the Linux world has stopped automatically praising everything Canonical does and started publicly questioning some of the directions he wants to take Ubuntu.

In many respects Mr. Shuttleworth is starting to sound and act like he wants to be the next Steve Jobs or Larry Ellison clone. And that is not something anybody in the Linux community is going to tolerate or willingly go along with. Especially in a community where even such genuine leading lights as Linus Torvalds and Rick Stallman aren't held to be above criticism when it's felt they've overstepped. To paraphrase Bormir in Lord of the Rings: "Linux has no king. Linux needs no king!"

Perhaps Mark Shuttleworth's comment wasn't meant to be taken so seriously. Perhaps (not being an American) he didn't realize how deadly an insult his "Tea Party" comment might be taken for - as it would be in many social circles.

Either way, a serious debate over the merits of Mir plus Canonical's recent moves to circle the wagons and start setting up Ubuntu as its own thing is worth having. If for no other reason than to clear the air.

I personally hope it happens.

[mahesh2k]

I would love to see a release of ubuntu distros kept side by side in comparison with weyland and xmir implemented. And then compared performance, just for the feel of it. They want to use mir for proprietary licensing then so be it. But comparison is worth doing so that others can see the potential of better product instead of thinking of only in terms of weyland for whole linux community.